subtlety

[topaz crow]

do i go for raid rings or just wait to get m+ rings for sub?

[rocky latch]

Hello, I have a question for the rotation during shadow dance.
The wowhead guide says to shadow strike on up to 3 targets. The method guide says to shadow strike on 2 and shuriken storm on 3+.
Same discrepancy for black powder: wowhead is at 3+ targets, the method one is 2+

Which is the correct one?
Or they are equivalent and doesn’t matter?

[slate nest]

dodge spells

[jade urchin]

valeera heal orbs give hot for 15 seconds stacking up to 4 times

4 stacks u basically cant die

[ornate heron]

@mint bobcat you want to play elusiveness

[mint bobcat]

He is hitting me with that huge DoT and Valeera isn't dispelng me fast enough

[jade urchin]

timer refreshes when picking up a new one

also elusiveness over cheat death helps a lot

[ornate heron]

tricks on valeera

as soon as valeera dies

[mint bobcat]

I'll give that a shot. Doing plenty of damage he is just still one shotting me even when I keep up 4 stacks of valeera hearts

[ornate heron]

press feint+vial as you rez her instantly

you will live during the rez due to the feint + vial

the only hard part of the fight comes in p3 when the gravity ball sucks you and it could be hard to rez her

[jade urchin]

also puddles dont do any damage almost its 100% worth to run into it to refresh heal buff

[ornate heron]

you can stand in them 100% of the time

i ignored the purple on the ground

i just pretended it didnt exist

[jade urchin]

probably true

can see that

[mint bobcat]

He just seems to be hitting me with something hard and I can't even tell what it is.

[ornate heron]

its not the cast is it?

[mint bobcat]

No I interrupt the cast easily.

[jade urchin]

its bit rng sometimes you just die from melees

depending on ilvl

[mint bobcat]

He like channels something on me, does like 200% of my health over 5 seconds

256 ilvl

about as high as I can get without spending hero crests

[ornate heron]

OHH so with valeera

and the tricks

you need a dance available

to redirect the threat to her

[jade urchin]

elusiveness feint makes u survive that for sure

keep feint for when ure not 4stacks of hot, valeera is dead or he casts the dot

otherwise its overused

[dry flame]

The difference from last night to today with trying to pug HC Crown is crazy. I slept, went work, came back and im no longer good enough to join pugs

inflation almost as bad as IRL

[vagrant fulcrum]

the fuck are they now demanding, also why not get a guild if you want week 1 aotc

[jade urchin]

also use shadowdance as aggro drop if u feel like ure dropping too low

[vagrant fulcrum]

you're likely spending 2-3x as much time pugging as you would raid in a guild for the same prog

[jade urchin]

ignore optimal rotation

[rocky latch]

Anyone?

[dry flame]

i cant comit to a raid schedule, some nights i just cant play (as in different nights)

[ornate heron]

you should only be tanking the guy when valeera is dead

and only tanking to REZ her

[jade urchin]

shadowstrike on 1-3 targets
blackpowder on 2+ targets is tldr

[ornate heron]

all other times valeera needs to be tanking as healer spec

[jade urchin]

theres a very very slight gain to eviscerate on 2 targets when u dont have potent powder talent

but u can really ignore that one

[open swan]

do you shadowblades after secret technique?

[jade urchin]

before

can just macro blades + dance + sectech for trickster

and make sure ure full combo points

[mint bobcat]

Ok I wasn't making healer Valeera tank enough it sounds like. Appreciate it.

[hollow forum]

Can i send hero crests on my hc dagger?

[latent finch]

you can but its probably not the best thing you can do

[hollow forum]

How are we using these HC crests

[tribal vortex]

probably on 3/6 hero

but after vault

[latent finch]

Depends how sweaty you want to be the thing is with weapon you can craft next week one with mythic crests and offhand item lvl doesnt matter really

[tribal vortex]

if you have any 3/6 you could spend some crests (not weapon as you will recraft on wednesday)

maybe a trinket or some jewelery

[prime pier]

Do we use algethar puzzle box before pull?

[glass kelp]

248 ilvl and my slices are only simming out to 61k. Any ideas?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pRTa5V9HkbZEurmtzJeoG4

Unless that's normal but I've seen some ridiculous pump

[hollow forum]

I have 1 3/6 HC dagger and a crafted one

[tribal vortex]

dagger is not a good upgrade because it will go in offhand

[pulsar hemlock]

Need just 1 tier piece in vault tomorrow that isnt chest and we ball

[hollow forum]

AAAhhh okay gotcha vov

[normal spoke]

i hope someone can help me i tryed to copy the rotation of the best parses and i dont understand what i am doing wrong, here is one of my logs https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/blackmoore/pforze?boss=3176

[obtuse dirge]

we get a catalyst charge tomorrow?

[hollow forum]

we dont scur

other week

[obtuse dirge]

😮

[hollow forum]

but u kinda get if u hit 2k io score

so go do that

[obtuse dirge]

when is next one?

[hollow forum]

every 2 weeks is 1

1st of april is the charge

[tribal vortex]

I tried to check and I can't see you using puzzlebox. Am I missing something ?

[normal spoke]

i used it for sure i dont know why it does not show

[tribal vortex]

it's casting time

it's not enough to macro it

just saying

[jade urchin]

ur second sectech might be outside of puzzle box if you do depending on haste and trickster/deathstalker opener

i think just use right before blades

[normal spoke]

maybe i cancled at start but

[tribal vortex]

also SB at 2min

you lost like 20 -30 sec

[near herald]

can someone check this pls :S

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3xVRPKhDTsxHxKGrpfvW9W

is there something wrong this doesnt see mright tho

[jade urchin]

what do u think is wrong?

sim generally tells u to go lower haste than you should because it doesnt do mistakes in cd window

[verbal kelp]

Sorry for the silly question, but how big is the difference in dps between the races? like going from blood elf to orc

[jade urchin]

but besides that trust robot

[normal spoke]

i saw some rogues wait for puzzlebox so sb in 2 min

[tribal vortex]

nah

[jade urchin]

play puzzlebox as 3min cd trinket

[normal spoke]

kk

[scarlet geyser]

Hey all - looking for some help with haste. My first dance during blades feels awkward. Shadowstrike is my last GDC during dance, and always procs apex talent. Which means I'm in blades, out of dance, full combopoints, apex ready, and no sectec. I'm not sure if I should

• Get more haste, so the double evis falls under the first dance
• Get less haste, so I don't end on shadowstrike and can dance + shuri
• Make a dance + evis macro and not worry about it

I think this log shows it. The random shuri storms on full combopoints is me hitting my macro to go into dance

[tribal vortex]

but also I don't see it casted anywhere

so not sure what happened

[normal spoke]

can you look at my vorasius kill ?

[swift tinsel]

if they box prepull I think it wipes the buff

[jade urchin]

its shadow technique procs, you cant affect that really where u end ur dance

have a separate macro for that

[tribal vortex]

yeah but I didn't see it in second cast too

[twin summit]

is sappling actually a goated trinket or is it just weird in sims

[tribal vortex]

I am not the best sub rogue so someone else could have a look with better feedback\

[swift tinsel]

they had the buff on pull then not again until 3:39

[normal spoke]

i think i puzzlebox out of combat thats why it does not show

[tribal vortex]

Yeah ok I thought it might be a cast pre pull that's why I checked min 2 and didn't see it there either

I see it now

[graceful rock]

What’s the big difference between sub and assa on heroic crown? Is it just needing execute?

[fallow rampart]

guys i get this trinket from dungeon, should i macro him with burst in blades?

[jade urchin]

use it separate before blades

it has a cast time

[slim aurora]

20sec

[fallow rampart]

like shadowstrike into trinket into burst?

[jade urchin]

yes

[fallow rampart]

ty, do we hold him always for blades?

[tribal vortex]

you have it as 3min

[jade urchin]

hold trinket for blades

dont hold blades for trinket

[fallow rampart]

ye thats what im sayin, ty

[fallow nimbus]

That trinket that spawns some lashers?

[swift tinsel]

always simmed well for me

[fallow nimbus]

It did 0.3% dmg for me

[swift tinsel]

its locked at vet track isn't it

[fallow nimbus]

I fear the guys spawn and die from aoe

[swift tinsel]

since its from a non-seasonal

[spring citrus]

has anyone been playing around with this drum of renewed bonds its only adventurer but i saw a decent dmg jump on it over other champ trinkets i got

[fallow nimbus]

I have it at champ

[swift tinsel]

oh really

[jade urchin]

its good for now but its delve trinket so will be outscaled soon

but good stat stick basically

[spring citrus]

tea 300 crit on a blue is kind of wild

yea*

[fallow nimbus]

I think it oversims

[wispy cedar]

would be interesting to check real uptime in logs vs uptime in sim

[spring citrus]

I noticed one of the top parsing sub rogues was using it so i popped it on and saw a pretty decent jump in dps. I will do some more testing on dummies

[jade urchin]

i went with crucible after the hotfixes

it seemed to sim higher for me

[swift tinsel]

it also might just be said rogue's best trinket they've got atm and they parsed well with it

[warm marlin]

why are you going into dance with storm so often? should essentially always be sectec unless it's second dance of blades and you happen to not have cp

and yes you probably want a dance/evis macro, and a dance/bp macro

[torn tide]

okay damn pvp is a whole different thing, getting that 1600 rating is gonna be impossible

[warm marlin]

if you do the other things correct ending dance with a strike is fine

it does good damage and is more cp efficient

[jade urchin]

m+ will be open soon dont stress it

[torn tide]

yea 2k io will be easy

for that catalyst

[jade urchin]

enjoy those last 2 days off

[lilac stag]

1600 rbgs as a rogue is pretty easy

[warm marlin]

[lilac stag]

did you not get it done?

[warm marlin]

1900 2s and 1800 3s was easier than 1600 rbgs cuh

[shrewd lantern]

rbgs is waiting for your team to not be potato

shuff you can win games with your own play

[torn tide]

when queuing i dont even get in

i sat there in queue for 15mins

[keen dome]

I'm currently losing a training grounds match

[warm marlin]

i didn't even end up getting 1600 in rbgs

we ended a solid 11-11

[lilac stag]

had it done in 9 games maybe 10. Rogue can control so much unless you are the potato

[warm marlin]

after the 6-1 opener

[finite hedge]

6-1 opener should have gotten it honestly

[warm marlin]

I was 1598 🙂

[finite hedge]

lmao

[shrewd lantern]

are rbg queue times still forever

ermm blitz

[keen dome]

it varies but def longer than shuffle in my experience

[finite hedge]

I found the opposite. Blitz faster than shuffle

[shrewd lantern]

yeah and the gains are typically less per win

[warm marlin]

the games take so long and the queues are like 3-5 mins

[shrewd lantern]

shuffle i could get like 200 pts

at low rating

if not more

[finite hedge]

Blitz wins are 288 until you approach your mmr

[lilac stag]

7-8 mins. Blitz was 280 or so every win

[finite hedge]

I ran with a healer friend who got 1619 at 6-2

[shrewd lantern]

which seems low rn

[west tide]

anyone familiar with the liq armory trinket stuff, why does the liquid generated profile for sub trickster have it so low

the guidon

[keen dome]

I tend to find Blitz easier because I'm bad at arena pvp but I know my job in Blitz.

[lilac stag]

Written by a DK

[jade urchin]

these damn unholies

[west tide]

lmao perhaps

[lilac stag]

Same. Peel healer/ FC or fuck yo bases

[keen dome]

yep

[lilac stag]

way more fun then LoS blah blah blah

[keen dome]

I'm a liability in arena most of the time but in BG's I've got the right mindset for it.

Just give me Destiny 2-esque pvp and I'll be a sweaty gremlin but WoW? nope, terrible.

[lilac stag]

smoke bomb the idiot standing to cap the flag and lock down his healer while the DH destroys the FC

[keen dome]

Yep

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/rawr-minions-gif-19161086

[bleak night]

i was a liability in arena but not enough of a liability to not get to 1600

[keen dome]

Find one healer and designate them as the one having A Bad Time.

[lilac stag]

MW is fucking cracked right now

[bleak night]

and this is after they nerfed stomp by 50% btw

[chrome palm]

other people cant see cloud cover in raid just out of raid

[wispy cosmos]

!opener

[swift tinsel]

aren't they changing Ancient Teachings to be a bigger single target heal too

[warm marlin]

how could this happen

[chrome palm]

so its only you get thats trolled

[lilac stag]

I made NoTricks eyes roll backwards since I made a 289 pvp dagger and “wasted” 5 heralds.

Clearly not wasted. I have my catalyst.

[warm marlin]

i did the same no idea they gave you a weapon for free

[west tide]

he told me to make the weapon

W

[keen dome]

Yeah I do the weapon every season for transmog

It's really nice

[lilac stag]

week 3 though.

[keen dome]

As in the 2.5k free weapon

[alpine wraith]

i crafted wrist and belt

[lilac stag]

Need ceta week 1

[alpine wraith]

just got the honor wep

[west tide]

i found solo shuffle to be really good for 1600

[warm marlin]

yeah i mean i dont really regret it

[keen dome]

I was tempted but I'll just get 2k .io on weds and be done

[warm marlin]

how long does it usually take to be full conq gear btw?

[alpine wraith]

bgs were kinda easy

[west tide]

i am not a pvper but sub is very op

[alpine wraith]

but also i kinda carried some of them

[lilac stag]

I looked at murlock. That fucker made it… I TOO SHALL MAKE IT

just like m+ degens

fuck min maxing

[keen dome]

If we got +1 catalyst from each.....

[lilac stag]

that would be hilarious

RL gave me degen status for PvPing.

[keen dome]

No chance it'd ever happen because of the "but I'm forced to pvp????" but

it would be funny and own

[lilac stag]

I want to get the mog finished. The enchant is pants

[keen dome]

ye I kinda do too if it wasn't a bad colour

But I'll do it at some point. I've done elite every season so far, although S2 TWW was Warrior, not rogue

[lilac stag]

The blood token dagger is nice mog

[alpine wraith]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1484624630764273745/drops.png

[cursive tundra]

btw, I made an addon to alert you when Vessel of Tortured Souls procs and when you pick up an orb: https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/tortured-souls-tts
it's a fork of the other tracker, mine just does TTS, which I prefer cause you can customize the volume

if you're like me (blind af)

[jade urchin]

wait it can track when one spawns?

[alpine wraith]

if it is like antenna you get a buff when it procs

[ionic wave]

Is there any reason why the trinket lists for wowhead and icyveins are so different? Does it come down to personal preference?

[jade urchin]

last time i checked there was no buff for soul spawning

[alpine wraith]

what are they different

[jade urchin]

only for picking one up

[swift tinsel]

the only big difference I really see for notable trinkets is heart of wind being shown as good/decent on wowhead and not good on IV

which, uncontrollable haste proc trinket with our kit is stinky

but folks should sim their drops anyways

[pastel rain]

Guys one question I'm wondering when playing sub and fights with adds moments like averzian, is it worth to delay secret technique few seconds so all the adds gather in one spot or I should be just firing it every cooldown with shadow dance and dont care?

[alpine wraith]

the heart trink is very good for m+

even if proc is random it will hit enough times

[ebon jackal]

Any kind sub player who can help me look over parsing? Feels like im playing right,but parses is beond shitty.. maybe some tips and tricks to improve?

[cursive tundra]

It tracks both, yes. You can customize the tts for both, and activate whichever

[gilded ferry]

I do not know enough neither am that good myself, but what is an ongoing message here is that: If you do not have 4pc tier yet, do not fret much for parsing

[wet jacinth]

hi o/. i have a question. I noticed on my Vorasius kill that other rogues have little to no damage on the blistercreeps. i played it wrong and held my Cooldowns to send into the creeps. Now to my question as a rogue. Is my goal to kind of ignore the adds and "if possible" continue sending on the boss and let my passive cleave damage the adds, effectively treating every fight without giga prio adds like single target or am i (like originally thought) supposed to line my cooldowns up with the adds ? The decision was relatively easy for me on chimaerus but i struggled on Vorasius and Imperator.

[jade urchin]

for vorasius blast boss and only blast ads when it naturally aligns or damage is missing for them

[ebon jackal]

Aha, is that a thing only for rogues? Like in my guild there is ww monks, warlocks and such that are parsing 90%+ without their tiers?

[carmine portal]

Warlock busted and WW players are mostly built different in my xp

[glad bough]

what would be the best setting to sim for m+? hectic add cleave?

[undone mesa]

hey guys! im trying to analyze my logs with wowanalyzer, but is not suported. Theres any other tool to do it?

[jade urchin]

most people dont have 4set, its big for sub rogue but depending on what u see as bad log it not tset gap

[west tide]

this is unfortunately…CAP

always aim to improve boys we gonna be the goats one day

[bleak night]

the real answer is never fret about parsing

pissvibe and chill

[wet jacinth]

so if my cooldowns dont align i say fk the adds and just continue smacking vorasius got it

[jade urchin]

ye can cleave them if theyre near boss, but dont stress focusing them

[vale warren]

Works great, thank you!

[wet jacinth]

same thing on Imperator ? giga focus the big adds with a BP here and there and dont fret for the little ones ?

[limber folio]

like this

[jade urchin]

just bp when 2+ targets for imperator but currently its not worth holding cds

[limber folio]

holding cds to parse week 1

[wheat edge]

[gilded ferry]

Just repeating what I was told, not that I am doing this. I'm all for being like charlie and diagnosing why im doing so bad

[wet jacinth]

and then imagine still not pumping smh my head i failedededed

[gilded ferry]

https://klipy.com/gifs/charlie-day-4

im always like this

[lusty acorn]

I craft dagger 259 should i recraft it to 272?

[limber folio]

❗

[jade urchin]

no wait for m+ and recraft with myth crests

crafting heroic crests is just burning them

[wet jacinth]

watch me ill get my orange numbers next week

[lusty acorn]

Myth crest when ddrop

[jade urchin]

next reset from +7 or +8 keys onwards

not sure which one

[ebon jackal]

But what ive seen and compared with, like a 99 parsing rogue is they get alot more evicserate cast out.
Ive heard about apex talent is a prio and you should overcap CP for it. But other vids and forums say i should not overcap, only overcap when SD and Shadow tech is up?

[lusty acorn]

Cool

[limber folio]

im gonna get benched next week

[jade urchin]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[lusty acorn]

To do more dam

i have 144 hero

Crest

[torn tide]

what key would we be able to do for ilvl 255 btw

[tribal vortex]

this depends on skill lvl

probably a 12 should be doable

[torn tide]

it feels so low lol but i feel like as long as i know mechs i should be good

[tribal vortex]

with myth weapon

[jade urchin]

also depends on scaling cant really say

[limber folio]

bro

most people should be able to do day 1 10s tbh

[tacit thistle]

Do we have an estimate to how much of a DPS difference doing that is compared to not doing it?

[limber folio]

if youre not dog

[alpine wraith]

i think you confuse most

with almost no one

[jade urchin]

1-3% iirc

[alpine wraith]

have you seen regular people

[tribal vortex]

Uber flexing

[tacit thistle]

Thank you! 🙂

[torn tide]

pugging is crazy if u wanna see people that dont know mechs

[hazy breach]

If you dont finish a couple of seconds before you dance its gonna sort itself out automatically most of the time

[jade urchin]

its season1 10s its literally not the same as season2 or 3 also

[hazy breach]

(which you should be doing anyway)

[jade urchin]

like its a coinflip how tuning will be

[tacit thistle]

I find that by my 3rd Shadow Blades I only have 1 charge of SD, is that me misplaying or just how it all lines up

[indigo wraith]

I have a question about the opening in a fight , Do we do our Second dance right away to benefits from shadowblades or we wait Secret thecnique to be up for the second dance

[ebon jackal]

So spending CP is straight up better when SD is on cd? Otherwise overcap for acient arts?

[jade urchin]

sim waits for second tech with 4set

but i fucked around a bit and im not sure if its correct

[tribal vortex]

when out of SD it doesn't matter

[alpine wraith]

you only wait if you have a haste trink or bl

[tribal vortex]

you could be afk for what's worth

[alpine wraith]

otherwise sec tech wont be up well for supercharger

with 4 set

[gilded ferry]

dunno what to tell you man, just repeated what i saw here

[jade urchin]

how sure are you because i tried ignoring supercharged for 2nd tech and just made sure its still inside dance

and it seemed to do slightly better on average

have 4set obviously

[alpine wraith]

do you have 4 set and guidon?

that is weird

[jade urchin]

yes both

[hazy breach]

Most of the dance is inside blades anyway

[alpine wraith]

yea should work correctly

[hazy breach]

Ideally you use your second dance right before guidon ends, and then your second finisher in dance is sectech right as its ready

[alpine wraith]

yea when sec tech has 3 secs or so

dance evis strike sec tech

[jade urchin]

maybe lust gap or lfr guidon gap

[alpine wraith]

apexing that evis

[hazy breach]

Idk how much haste is lfr

[alpine wraith]

ah lfr guidon and plume might not have enough haste

at low ilvl

[jade urchin]

makes sense then

[alpine wraith]

can compensate with more haste on gear but idk how much it would be

[jade urchin]

second sectech is in the last 3 seconds ish of blades for me

[hazy breach]

Ye

[jade urchin]

with 680 haste + 250 guidon

[alpine wraith]

you want to get to 1163 when popping guidon

or close to

1076

[lyric thorn]

So i might be dumb, but is it correct in the sims with 4p that im gonna hold my 2nd dance in blades for 6-7 seconds until i can secret technique the 2nd time in blades window?aa

[jade urchin]

aight gonna keep doing that then til we get blessed with hc guidon

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade i'm ready for your ass(a) arc

[torpid echo]

is it worth sending hero crests in my hc guideon or wait for reset?

[alpine wraith]

rn i would only send crests on hero track tier

[tribal vortex]

probably trinkets could be upgraded

[jade urchin]

dont send below 3/6 pieces no?

[tribal vortex]

the only thing I would do

[jade urchin]

m+ drops 3/6

[torpid echo]

ahhhhhh

[tribal vortex]

but yeah you can wait to farm m

[torpid echo]

good call the 3/6

ty!

[tribal vortex]

still you need 2 hero trinkets so you save like 20 hc

[jade urchin]

to have or not to have

[tribal vortex]

I mean a bit sweaty but if you are going to farm m+ all day you should

[jade urchin]

isnt wow all about being a sweat

[swift tinsel]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1484624630764273745/drops.png

[limber folio]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923750073499648/1483995021903396994/puzzlebox.gif

[wheat edge]

So opener on alleria fight that is without lust for example, I have just been sending 2nd dance right as first one ends, and my tech comes up when blades has like 3 sec left (4 set + hero guidon), I assume that is probably correct instead of holding to super charge the tech?

[hazy breach]

Its slightly better to supercharge the sectech

I added a section about it in the FAQ

[worn rose]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[hazy breach]

Ideally you dance last second of guidon to benefit from the haste AND get the supercharged sectech, but theres a bug that makes it a bit janky and hard to time well

[wheat edge]

Ill try it out in todays attempts, it just sounded awkward to be sitting outside of dance while blades is going but I can see it

Guess its time to start tracking the trinket

[warm marlin]

I wish people the best of luck doing this with the bug

[crimson thorn]

Guys, we no longer force proc apex in blood lust?

[hazy breach]

Even if you dont get it with guidon it was still slightly better

[scenic hatch]

Hey ppl !

Anyone noticed a bug on vanish that when u press u get like instantly popped out of stealth even if u dont press any button ?

[warm marlin]

not too bad then

[hazy breach]

But obviously +0.5% is less than +1.2%

[warm marlin]

i do not think you are getting that 1.2% without the forbidden technology

if that will even end up working consistently

it just mathematically doesnt make sense

[tribal vortex]

probably you have macro stealth and something else

like trinket or something

[shrewd monolith]

Hey so i see on logs that lot of rogues use their 2nd SD without sec tech just spamming evi is that correct way of play?

Cuz i remember we always want to use our sec tech with sd

[hallow night]

if you wait for sec tech on the 2nd SD, you'll lose dps

if you have less than 10sec left on SecTech on CD, you wait, otherwise you send it.

[tribal vortex]

I mean depends on haste trinket etc

[wanton oxide]

This is only with shadow blades up, cause you’ll go through two dances without a second Sec Tech

[gilded ferry]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hazy lichen]

should u try to use second sd right before guidon ends for the extended duration

[woeful barn]

Scroll up

Just got answered

[hazy lichen]

the delay bug?

[hazy breach]

Yes and no

[winged anvil]

Is there ever a situation where you would want to use SecTec outside of SD? I've noticed that after my opener SecTec comes off CD before my SD is ready, so I've just been sending a "naked" SecTec to get as many uses as possible

[hazy breach]

If you have the recommended levels of haste generally no

[scenic hatch]

no you should wait 4s for 3rd SD before pressing tech

[hazy breach]

But sometimes if you don't you can get away with it

[winged anvil]

Okay

Don't you end up having to hold SecTec again later before Shadow Blades comes off of CD to ensure 2 charges of SD?

My first time playing sub so trying to figure it all out

[scenic hatch]

if u can press SD + sectech

u should do it

except if SBlades come off CD in less than 10s

then u pool for blades

[hazy lichen]

wdym pool for blades

wait for sectec to come back up?

[swift tinsel]

not using dance/sectech when blades cd is <10

[scenic hatch]

nah u wait for blades before pressing SD + Tech

[swift tinsel]

and pooling shadow techniques stacks like 3-5sec before sending

[scenic hatch]

thats what i meant yeh

[winged anvil]

okay, that makes sense

[hazy lichen]

so its okay to send sd sectec 11 seconds before sb?

[scenic hatch]

yep

[hazy lichen]

dang

[hollow spear]

even at 10.1 seconds :^)

[scenic hatch]

since u'll have them back at the end of blades

[hazy lichen]

ive only been using it 15+ seconds above

[scenic hatch]

and should be able to fit it in last second of blades

[hazy lichen]

oh but u still press sb on cd?

[scenic hatch]

on this point IDK man, since trinkets might have some impact

i'm running puzzle box, and i'm kinda lost concerning usage of blades / trinket

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

What's the forbidden tech?

puzzle box is just trinket into blades window (and you use trinket every 3 min)

[hazy lichen]

wait thats so weird

so its good to use sd sectec 11 sec before sb but dont hold the sb for when sectec comes off cd? instead just use sb insta and get the sectec in last second when it comes off cd?

[scenic hatch]

thx my G

[warm marlin]

the up to 1s delay for deepening shadows to update your dance duration based on your haste is actually based on how blizzard coded the backend for the talent, which runs on a 1s clock beginning... when you log in? when you open the client? unclear as of yet. in theory you could create an addon to infer the state of this 1s clock and press your guidon/dance around it to mitigate most of the delay

[west tide]

flask change macro

[wheat edge]

sub rogue needs jesus

[hollow spear]

https://tenor.com/view/bleach-eyes-gif-13300017

[scenic hatch]

basically since coodowns are timed, u should be able to either start SB with SD+Tech, or end SB with Tech on last sec of SD

(correct me if im wrong lads)

so it fits everytime

[hollow spear]

you should start SB with SD + tec

always

[hazy lichen]

ok

so hold the sb

for tec to come off cd

[scenic hatch]

yeh ofc, hes asking this "so its good to use sd sectec 11 sec before sb but dont hold the sb for when sectec comes off cd? instead just use sb insta and get the sectec in last second when it comes off cd?"

[hollow spear]

well that's wrong tho

you don't just yolo your sb without sectec up

[warm marlin]

i successfully pressed guidon and dance 0.1-0.2s apart some 4 times in a row but it doesn't always work when you login and it currently breaks when you go through a loading screen or reload so you are required to enter instance, log out, log back in, and make sure it's calibrated before doing content in the current iteration, hence the "forbidden"

[swift tinsel]

[hollow spear]

I love how you use "calibrate" in this context

[lilac stag]

petition to rename subtlety to jank

[swift tinsel]

all because they needed to shove haste into the spec somehow

something something bloodlust interaction when it doesn't even affect deepning

[hazy lichen]

does it lower tec cd tho at least

[warm marlin]

even if the addon is fixed its extraordinarily cursed

[swift tinsel]

don't get me started on sectech hasted cd

literal bad shit.

having lust affect sht should have been the end of it

hasted dance duration leading to additional dance global breakpoints

we love breakpoints certainly weren't mostly removed bc they fucking suck

[wheat edge]

is it to the point that you just shadowstrike and insta trinket while on gcd

[warm marlin]

ye

you could macro guidon/strike for opener!

[swift tinsel]

[wheat edge]

🙂 🙂 🙂

[swift tinsel]

the tech

[warm marlin]

it'll be exactly one second perfectly for blades/dance/sectec next gcd

[swift tinsel]

at this point we'll have more macros than natural binds

[hollow spear]

until you accidentally press the macro during a random dance

[swift tinsel]

for dps abilities

[hollow spear]

couldn't be me though

[swift tinsel]

naked strike, strike+guidon, the litany of dance+X macros

[lilac stag]

Nah. Just add Stike to trinket and forget it

[warm marlin]

i will not yield to the 2 button spec

[hollow spear]

I probably have more buttons now than I did in tww s3

[swift tinsel]

more so a commentary on needing to maximize dance global efficiency

[lilac stag]

I still like guidon + swirly ball

[hollow spear]

swirly ball = vessel?

[swift tinsel]

miss me with that trinket the way I miss the soul spawns from that trinket

[hollow spear]

I hate that trinket with a passion

[swift tinsel]

streaky ahh spawn rates too

would literally go 30+ seconds sometimes with no spawn

then get rapid fire ones

[hazy lichen]

wait its actually efficient to macro strike into the trinket LOL

[wheat edge]

we are online

[hollow spear]

Winning

[wheat edge]

guess it also has to be like this cause otherwise the trinket use pulls you out of stealth before you can strike

[tulip light]

why not macro with blades?

[wheat edge]

well if the haste increase is so unreliable I'd rather use the trinket a sec before and then send the swifty macro

[tulip light]

ah ok nvm if u have blades + dance

[undone mesa]

this frankiestein macro really works? genuine question

[chilly kite]

what if you used the thistle tea delay macro script for everything after lights potential

set delay to 1 seconds

[steel spire]

anyone got some tips for delve boss?

or build idk

[undone mesa]

level up a tank, dk or druid and gg

[shrewd monolith]

Have one more question if i do SD pre pull and fight start and i enter SD i get 4 super charged cp one i spend on sec tech should i proc apex on other 3?

[jade urchin]

wait do u fix the "random delay" to some extent by just relogging then

[hazy lichen]

if u have 5 shadow techniques stacks up i think u do until u dont have those 5 stacks

[warm marlin]

No you resync your timer tracking the clock

The delay isn’t actually random it’s just hidden, it refreshes once a second

You need guidon, then hit a refresh, then dance

[jade urchin]

aw hell nah im not bothering with that

[hollow spear]

What's the sectec cooldown with 684 haste + lust + guidon?

[hazy lichen]

with 4p and guidon is it okay to be at 641 haste or should i try and get 700

[swift tinsel]

man breakpoints are cool

[hazy breach]

With lust its super easy

Without lust it's like 17

[hollow spear]

Without lust it's not happening ig

How does a hasted cooldown work anyway? Does it snapshot or does it just tick down faster?

[warm marlin]

it ticks down faster while you have the haste

[lean rover]

Was wondering if someone might be able to tell at a high lvl, what i might be missing rotation wise when it comes to Deathstalker. I put in the new Shuriken-SD macro and I ensure i use full combo point for Dealdy night, not sure if anything else really changes compared to trickster

My Target Dummy DPS is practically the same for a 4 minute rotation

[steel spire]

i did it

yippe

[glass kelp]

Getting mogged here by rogues of similar ilevel, if anyone has anything to offer I'd appreciate it https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/Mnr7tXbmTNZwzk8C/KbVp63ZYJcQMRT1j?fight=12%2C9&type=casts&source=23%2CChoicescarf&start=18812310%2C1951085&end=18862777%2C2001552&view=timeline

[heady cape]

what do i craft as second craft, and do i use spark or just crest?

[stuck arrow]

What's this? New tech?

[stuck arrow]

I mean for one - you don't have any enchants and you didn't use buffs.

That's probably 80% of the difference.

[torpid echo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

if you're Stabbity this sequence here is problematic

[bleak night]

not the third finisher sectec

[swift tinsel]

and a sectech-less dance at 00:23

[stuck arrow]

And no combat potion. Even if you're cheap - the silver pots are like 20 gold and still are like 30% more agi for 30s.

[swift tinsel]

would recommend spending some time ironing out your rotational priorities since there seem to be a number of mistakes rotationally

[hollow spear]

Ah, the classic "I promise I've read the guides" rotation

[stuck arrow]

And enchant your gear ffs.

[swift tinsel]

then look at things like enchants/consumes

I mean its normal enchants are whatever

[stuck arrow]

Enchants aren't optional, they're a load of damage.

[bleak night]

this early on enchants are kinda optional

that shit expensive af

[stuck arrow]

Even if you're cheap, put something on em.

[bleak night]

ring enchants are cheap though

can grab those easy

[swift tinsel]

those won't fix a naked dance

[bleak night]

yeah the bigger issues are definitely actual gameplay

[swift tinsel]

or non-sc sectechs

ye

lipstick on a pig scenario

[warm marlin]

ya like this is wasting omega gcd from dancing wayyy too early into not supercharging sectec

[mental saffron]

Are we predicting Puzzle box or Haste raid trinket to be the play in M+`?

[undone mesa]

never sectec before dance

and u did not used potion

[silk fiber]

Isn't it the heart from windshield for m+?

[hollow spear]

This log is a gift that keeps on giving

[stuck arrow]

Idk. Maybe it's just me, but like - I think it's incredibly terror not having enchants.

Honestly it's probably a bigger dps loss than straight up playing wrong.

Should play right, doing get me wrong, but like - no excuse to just not have enchants.

[undone mesa]

Since Sub is a Bursty spec, if u dont do max dps on burst, your overall dmg will be lower

[tribal vortex]

in 2 days we have m+ just wait why waste like 20-50k gold for 5% dmg

[swift tinsel]

speaking of wasted gcds

[hollow spear]

The terrible sectecs are so much worse than having no enchants

Ngl

[tribal vortex]

I mean it's not even close

Each enchant now has like 10k gold or something

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'd definitely recommend just practicing and getting down the rotation

[tribal vortex]

just to kill a boss 1 day earlier

[silk fiber]

I told my RL id enchant everything after first vault. Before then is just kind of a waste imo the first week I replaced 4 peices of gear and got a better offhand dagger

[mint bobcat]

omg I did it. That was way too sweaty as rogue at this ilvl

[swift tinsel]

not to flame or anything but there's some foundational elements missing

[rigid sparrow]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[swift tinsel]

that second point

enchants will absolutely not cover bad play

[warm marlin]

enchants are pretty strong this tier but ye idk think in that case maybe not strong enough

[keen dome]

Practice and pushing buttons better is always a bigger DPS gain than gear or additonal items.

And the best part is that it's free

[hollow spear]

As I said, it's the classic "I've read all the guides" log that disproves that claim at first glance

[tribal vortex]

I mean it's different having read it and actually doing it

and it's logical

You can't just learn a spec without playing it

[hollow spear]

Idk, that's the very foundation

[keen dome]

It's two parts of the same puzzle.

Theory and practical

[tribal vortex]

it's not a training dummy

[keen dome]

Theory builds the practical and practical reinforces the theory

[tribal vortex]

in a raid fight you are thinking for 10 different things especially being new to a spec

[stuck arrow]

Not saying they will. If you play bad you'll still do bad damage.

But they're like a lot of damage. Going without them is kind of inting your raid.

Idk. Maybe I'm just triggered from spending way too long trying to pass DPS checks with bad guilds filled with people that didn't do the bare minimum.

[swift tinsel]

yeah you kinda need to understand how to properly play your spec before adjusting it to fit a specific fight

[glass kelp]

https://tenor.com/view/squidward-limping-attacked-foxmel-gif-26121133

Thank you for the feedback homies

[tribal vortex]

DPS checks are passed if you play well. Enchants is the way to pass them without playing well

[glass kelp]

I'll get some enchants and learn to play

[swift tinsel]

lmao we've all been there my dude

[hollow spear]

I don't disagree. But the mistakes we see here can be explained by guides and don't need a gigabrain analysis is what I'm saying.

[keen dome]

We all started there and just got better 'cos the rogue Discord is legit a solid community that'll help non-stop.

[tribal vortex]

Ofc enchant your gear but for a player not in the hof range enchanting 2 days later kinda unimportant

I am in a wr 900 guild I haven't even crafted

[keen dome]

Reinforcement of good practical play is gonna go further than anything else.

[sacred jewel]

Learn first, thats your biggest dps increase. Enchants won’t fix the core issue

[hollow spear]

Enchants are the icing. Let's bake the cake first.

[tribal vortex]

CBA wasting 100-200k gold for enchants and expensive consumes etc

[swift tinsel]

@glass kelp apologies it turned into a bit of a dogpile, would def say spend a bit of time really hammering in executing shadow dances and that'll boost your damage by a lot

[keen dome]

I like this metaphor a lot, it's very accurate

[glass kelp]

Target dummies ≠ actual fights. I'm gonna try and get some more time in the cockpit in actual raid too

[swift tinsel]

focus on supercharging your secret techniques

well yeah

[tribal vortex]

best suggestion is to use the macro

SD + st

[undone mesa]

u can try to improve yours minor cds and burst windows, never sect before dance as minor, hold both of the to lineup

Always have 2 charges of dance and sectec up to blades

inside dance your first gcd always will be sectec then shadowstrike and finisher

[hollow spear]

Yeah, you gotta get some mileage in

[swift tinsel]

the more the rotation becomes second nature that'll translate to better raid performance

[glass kelp]

Nah it's all good, I like blunt feedback anyways. Bigger foundational issues are easier to fix than tiny optimizations anyways

[keen dome]

You might want to try pugging into some normal groups and just hitting the boss. Just get the reps in. If they kick you, who cares, you are there to improve yourself and nothing else.

[swift tinsel]

you've got the right attitude for it which is great

[cold fox]

dumb question maybe, but my evisc is missing from the CDM when I spec death stalker(neihter in essential or utility, nor unassinged), on trickster its there. I know it's not technically a CD but I like to have it up there for "completion". am I missing something here?

[tribal vortex]

yeah for trickster it is there for coup

[swift tinsel]

can also lean on the Dance+Sectech macro to ensure you're always supercharging it

[keen dome]

When I wanna practice a boss, or a mechanic, or something i'll pug into a random group and just focus on that one thing until I feel happy with it.

[golden totem]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[cold fox]

so I just can't show it for DS? sad, but thanks

[tribal vortex]

I guess not but you can put a bar there (although I don't see the reason)

[hollow spear]

Idk I think it would distract me

[cold fox]

yeah it's just some kind of ocd whatever, would just like to "know" its there, thanks guys

[solemn isle]

I stopped using dance sec tech macro because I found myself pressing it a split second before dance came off cd on occasion and then sec tech went first

maybe that is dumb idk

[vale pine]

congrats

[tribal vortex]

I think you should try and use it so you don't lose sd time

[valid yoke]

How important is the 700 haste breakpoint? Should I expect a decent dps bump by maintaining it?

I’m currently under at 640 haste

[solemn isle]

do you just be conservative when dance is coming off cd to absolutely make sure you have both? I guess it is better to lose half a global before dance than half a global after it

[valid yoke]

And does it work to macro blades with sectec?

[astral axle]

I'm seeing conflicting information about m+ crest rewards. Some places are saying +7 and above drop myth crests. Others say +9 and above. Anyone know for sure?

[torn cedar]

7 was old 9 is new?

[astral axle]

Could've sworn it was 7 and above on beta.

[tribal vortex]

No one knows

[marble onyx]

currency tooltip says m+9

[jagged hazel]

For m+ is more haste after 700 a waste? And how much mastery are we shooting for?

[tribal vortex]

I mean yeah half a GCD delay is nothing. It's more important to not lose any GCD inside

[slate ember]

yo does dps on the back of the mob making a difference in dps?

[dreamy stump]

hey guys, on deathstalker do we only try to get aa for darkest night during sd, or we try having it for every eviscerate in sd ?

[torn cedar]

ad 20% to your backstab, that's it isnt it? boss can parry/dodge w/e from any angle

[tribal vortex]

can't parry from behind

[torn cedar]

boss can, according to tooltip 😄

22 year old loadingscreen tip

[swift tinsel]

huh

unparryable from behind has been a thing forever

same with block

[tough solar]

!bis

are the same trinkets bis for M+ and raid?

[keen dome]

post the paladin gif from TWW where he gets bonked behind by an oggre and dies

[fiery fog]

btw on paladins
do we hold sectec for like 1 cd to let the bubble be dispelled?

[formal copper]

Which is better: (without ultracharged combo points and only for Eviscerate) when you have 6 combo points, consume them with Eviscerate or use 1 Shadow Strike to reach 7 points and then use Eviscerate?

[swift tinsel]

ugh I need to save that one lol

[formal copper]

losing one of the two combo points that Shadow Strike gives us

[swift tinsel]

idk where it went

[limber folio]

alleria being so ass

and not being curve boss

[swift tinsel]

FOUND IT

[umbral fulcrum]

https://i.redd.it/otk4cwzoqh3e1.gif

gif form

[swift tinsel]

ty king

[umbral fulcrum]

[vocal narwhal]

Haste breakpoint is 700 right?

[keen dome]

yeees

I love that gif

[tough solar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lusty solar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[jagged hazel]

I’ll try again for m+ is more haste after 700 a waste? And how much mastery are we shooting for?

[tribal vortex]

sim yourself

[vale osprey]

Ask the robot

[jagged hazel]

Ah okay ty

[onyx flame]

oh nice

[keen dome]

Huge

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[onyx flame]

is it dumb to play together with puzzlebox since 2 use trinkets?

[hollow spear]

Probably not the play no

[unkempt oak]

Question, how do sims handle a talent like The First Dance (+3 sec shadow dance when out of combat for 6 seconds). I could see Shuriken Tornado potentially doing better in M+ (sims better), so just trying to understand why The First Dance is the recommended.

[glacial hinge]

vessel bait or anyone has a addon for it?

[hazy breach]

Dance duration is really really strong

And it happens often enough that its worth it

If youre simming like 8 target constant cleave you will only get first dance at the start of the sim

[tough solar]

two dropped for us this morning and i passed on them...

i thought the puzzlebox was bis for sub...

[unkempt oak]

was just simming with dungeon slice

[strange chasm]

Any reason why the chim trinket

is simming INSANELY high all of a sudden?

[bleak night]

apparently in game its ignoring the .75s icd its supposed to have

so it was updated in simc to reflect that

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/19f797dd29b195bcf15fd0a3d19cce41db2cdcb9

[radiant swift]

what can delay the dance + stec macro? energy, previous gcd and range?

[warm marlin]

excellent

[fleet acorn]

no way 🙁 almost

[radiant swift]

sometimes its optimal but then it would sometimes look like this:

[tough solar]

Cringebox and HoW are simming higher in dungeon slice than all other trinkets, is that accurate for M+?

[gilded thistle]

ill die before i use that stupid fucking box again

[warm marlin]

mastery is quite good in aoe!

[gilded thistle]

https://tenor.com/view/akira-leave-me-alone-leave-me-alone-meme-gif-6420351794930725971

[tough solar]

why is light comp simming so low in dungeon slice?

[karmic harbor]

do nameplates really not change based on threat

[graceful perch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lethal gale]

if you arent running potent powder is it still worth to bp at 2 target? In a fight like vorasius

[warm marlin]

its not even worth at 2 target with potent powder for my level of mastery

to bp

[jaunty heath]

damn im raiding first time with 4set and gudion

and that opener do not really work 😄

like cant supercharge second sectech most of time

[vagrant fulcrum]

yo, where did the evisc pre-cds go

or am I hallucinating that getting snd up was a thing

@vale pine @hazy breach your guides have different openers, what's going on

[jaunty heath]

@warm marlin did you cook with that opener ?

[warm marlin]

erm sort of yes

i did it twice successfully on alleria and once it got a bit scuffed

[jaunty heath]

damn 😄

[warm marlin]

it's rng

[warm marlin]

#subtlety message

[hollow spear]

That's why I was asking earlier about the sectec cd during lust with guidon

[sacred jewel]

@vagrant fulcrum one is the deathstalker opener, the other trickster

[hollow spear]

Because if you take the 1 second buffer into account, you need sectec's cd to be below 14 seconds

[sacred jewel]

click on trickster on the icy veins page and you’ll see the same

[stuck arrow]

What's the maximum delay? Do we know?

[mint bobcat]

Yea that's DS versus trickster openers

[warm marlin]

one second

[mint bobcat]

You want to go into Shadow dance with low combo points as DS, and high CP as Trickster

[stuck arrow]

isn't it just best then to wait a gcd?

On average that's probably the least jank way. Just fit in a back stab in before you pop dance.

That's probably marginal in terms of DPS loss if you do it consistently, no?

[warm marlin]

you dont have one second leeway

the timing window is very small to snapshot guidon + supercharge sectec without just spamming 3x strikes in a row

[hazy breach]

Press trickster and its the same

[warm marlin]

the best thing to do is probably just ignore the guidon snapshot and supercharge 2nd sectec

just press dance when its 3s away

if i get the secret forbidden addon working i will share

[stuck arrow]

If you wait the second dance doesn't snap shot?

[warm marlin]

the exact window where things align is within the last like 0.5s of guidon buff being active

[stuck arrow]

Oh gross.

[shrewd reef]

is sub so useless for lightblinded vanguard? only 62k dps, all other classes near to 100k

[stuck arrow]

I mean dps overall, yes. I'd argue sub has value in terms of popping shield. Let's half your raid zug zug and not switch targets.

[pine viper]

Can someone help me, take a look at what im doing wrong? I think its cd management but im not sure... Im new to the game kinda lost on why im doing so bad
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wjbGW3NLtKQ8hfTV?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=56

[strange chasm]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[fleet acorn]

on crown on p2 u always use dance sectech when adds come or just send it?

[verbal kelp]

Quick question, for the panda racial, does it work with any food buff? And it essentially doubles the gain? And it works in both raids and m+?

[stuck arrow]

Is it worth using strike instead eviscerate to guarantee the SecTec supercharge + Eviscerate supercharge + guidon snapshot?

Similar to the aa optimization.

Or are you just sending way too many strikes?

[keen dome]

Big fan of the garf

[olive canyon]

do you have 4p @warm marlin

[warm marlin]

yes

[olive canyon]

So you have about 1s to get that sectec in under blades

with dance of course

[near herald]

do we hold gaze?

[warm marlin]

yes please ignore!

[swift tinsel]

I'm ignoring everything dw

I see nothing but a handsome garf

[trail bison]

so the timing of the second dance is when guidon ends? is that what im looking at

[vale pine]

one if strickster, the other one deathstalker

[warm marlin]

yes but only if sectec cd is low enough, which generally will be very difficult to do if you are doing the 1s delay

[raw ridge]

my first blue parse thanks for all the info you guys vomit in here

[mint bobcat]

First thing I notice is he casted almost 50 more eviscerates than I did on Salad King despite our Shadowstrikes and Shadow blades being similar cast numbrs. I don't see how he reaches that number unless he is casting a bunch of low combo point eviscerates. That would be a huge dps loss especially if he is doing that during shadow dance windows

[trail bison]

yeah makes sense, the 1s delay is a pain to play around

[vagrant fulcrum]

why does that change the pre-cd evisc? im curious

is snd less value for ds?

[vale pine]

deathstalker wants to start dance with low cp

trickster with high

[jaunty heath]

i feel like at this point best optimatization is dont do any .D

[vale pine]

the benefit is usually minor

[swift tinsel]

pooling before dance with low/no cp feels omegabad

quite gross

[mint bobcat]

Does it though, you do no damage outside of shadow dance lol

[swift tinsel]

yes

yes it does

[trim fractal]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[mint bobcat]

More time to focus on mechanics 🤷‍♂️

[swift tinsel]

there aren't any yet lol

[trim fractal]

Does this mean we are only pressing evis when we have the black bars proc?

[stuck arrow]

I mean feels good to ready combo points for dance imo.

Part of why I'm ok with not using DS.

[mint bobcat]

I like trying to line it all up personally

[stuck arrow]

Gives you something to do.

[swift tinsel]

idk capping energy with zero cp is just more jank

[mint bobcat]

Oh you are talking about DS, yea I refuse to play that XD

[graceful rock]

I should run back Nullaeus now that I have 4 set

[swift tinsel]

ye trickster is fine bc you can still build to avoid capping energy

DS is butt

all around butt

[stuck arrow]

I'd play DS if they fixed the bugs.

[swift tinsel]

also the slight delay in DN buff disappearing bothers me

makes me think its not getting consumed

[mint bobcat]

Only eviscerate at 6+ combo points. My logs were not incredible by any means but I did 10k more damage on that fight than him at very similar ilvl and when I got the circles I stood at the edge of the arena for the full duration so I was sandbagging myself. An additional 45 casts of eviscerate means he is doing something weird.

[gilded thistle]

if your shadow dance runs out after you've cast sectec but before the extra hits strike, does it have a snapshot of the bonus damage from dance, or does it just hit for less

[hazy breach]

Just less

[gilded thistle]

damn

[mint bobcat]

What's the realistic haste number we are looking for to avoid my grandpa reflexes sandbagging me? Is it closer to 800?

[stuck arrow]

Idk. How many gcds you usually lose?

[mint bobcat]

Occasionally miss 1 GCD within shadow dance at 745

[gilded thistle]

is it haste > mastery until 18%?

[spare bobcat]

is there an argument to shiv with toxic stilleto to send a 7 CP sectec before dance window or am i just being fucking stupid

[weary tree]

please don't

[spare bobcat]

im not just wondering

cus sometimes im like at 6 cp about to dance sectec

and im like

what if

[weary tree]

You have limited gcds inside your dance window

Dont waste them with stupid abilities like shiv

[spare bobcat]

before dance window, before i press my of dance+sectec if im at 6 cps

[mint bobcat]

That's the biggest thing I noticed. Gold tier stat pot goes a pretty long way on sub rogue depending on how much gold he is willing to throw around. Most of his mistakes are going to be within the shadow dance windows if his damage is that low. Ask him if he has Shadowbldes/Shadowdance/SecTec/PrePot/Trinket all macroed into one button as that can really simplify it.

[swift tinsel]

its quite easy to get 7 cp before sending sectech/dance

and on opener you have premed

you stop sending finishers a few seconds before dance and you can bs to avoid overcapping energy which will typically put you at 7cp anyways

[spare bobcat]

already in combat scenario, 6 cps, dance and sectec are up, slam a shiv to get 7 cps instead of backstab, thats what i mean to ask sorry high as fuck so i got confused typing. Again im NOT doing it, its just a thought that came to my head

[swift tinsel]

nah typically not worth to shiv

[gilded thistle]

lol i wanna do this, idc if it's even optimal

[spare bobcat]

like its a fun little interaction

it would be cool

[gilded thistle]

idk what to sac for those points tho lol

[mint bobcat]

Morf trying to unprune the spec lol

[graceful rock]

The issue is you have to use 2 talent points to take the cheap shiv

[gilded thistle]

yeah i dont see anything i wanna lose for those points

[graceful rock]

So like just backstab

[hollow spear]

Drop cloak of shadows

[spare bobcat]

costs more energy overcaps cps

[gilded thistle]

shadowrunner and maybe featherfoot?

but oof

[graceful rock]

You’re outside of dance, nothing matters

[spare bobcat]

drop featherfoot shadowrunner

[swift tinsel]

overcapping cps doesn't matter

with how many sht we lose

[spare bobcat]

i know but it costs less energy too

[unreal musk]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[swift tinsel]

energy is free

in dance

[spare bobcat]

true

[swift tinsel]

and we have master of shadows

[mint bobcat]

Can macro your other finishers with Shadow Dance just to avoid wasting global CD's in shadow dance.

[hollow spear]

Idk if you're not sprinting it hard before dance this should not be an issue to play around

[swift tinsel]

so unless you legit grief your energy

that's not gonna be an issue

[stuck arrow]

I mean even if you grief your energy.

I can't imagine not having energy in dance

[spare bobcat]

this ^

[gilded thistle]

have u considered the innate satisfaction of having 7 points instead of 6 as part of the optimization being done here? Please consider feelings when writing the apl from now on

[swift tinsel]

plus backstab can proc UB

[spare bobcat]

retweet

like it would feel so good to press that shiv

[swift tinsel]

backstab can put you at 7cp

its really easy to prep your dances

like

[gilded thistle]

but what if im low on energy

[hollow spear]

The only legit grief is to send backstab, be out of energy, and send your dance sectec macro to then realize that sectec didn't go off

[swift tinsel]

really really easy

[gilded thistle]

what if I didn't prep

what if I just wanna

[swift tinsel]

then you fix your mistake

and learn to not do that

[gilded thistle]

shiv to fix my mistake

this could make up for my shortcomings

[keen dome]

The shiv idea is funny so I support it

[gilded thistle]

lmao

[spare bobcat]

its not even funny

its just fun

[hollow spear]

Never happened to me though, I've heard it from a friend

[spare bobcat]

its flavor

im OBVIOUSLY not doing it

[keen dome]

i'm gonna do it

[spare bobcat]

cus it would not be optimal and im a sweatlord but just IMAGINE

[gilded thistle]

im doing it fuck that lmao

for the memes

next 100 i parse im gonna point to this as the reason

[solemn isle]

what if imagining the shiv is better than using the shiv

and doing it therefore ruins it

[gilded thistle]

really it depends how much i like going fast

and i really do like going fast

but memes...

[hollow spear]

Is the sectec apex still borked btw?

[hazy breach]

Its still doing less than it should yes

[mint bobcat]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[gilded thistle]

you dont have to use all of them

but the first one is pretty big

[mint bobcat]

Shadow dance/Sec tec one is the most important

[versed hawk]

do we only dance if we can get a sectec off in the first 2 finishers?

[hollow spear]

Very feelycrafty question, but do you think we'd play around sectec differently if it was doing what it's supposed to?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[mint bobcat]

Yea that feels like a good prio list

[hollow spear]

Sad, I think I'd like that

Big fan of big sectec

[stuck arrow]

Pray for bug fixes. 🙏

[gilded thistle]

sub is such a different beast after being a sin main. Fucking optimizing the latency of my fingers on the keyboard to maximize gcds in a burst window

sweaty asf

[violet palm]

I think my character bugged or there is some weird interaction with multiple rogues. Can someone please explain why am I doing flat less damage than my other rogue, while I casted more spells (I'm aware of set but diff shouldn't be THAT high)

[lyric patrol]

bruh sub is 2 buttons now

[gilded thistle]

yes but it's still a different vibe

[mint bobcat]

Yea he should vanish off CD outside of shadowdance but it really isn't that big of a dps increase. Still should use it though. If he doesn't want over think it the Black powder/coup de grace macro is fine but I don't currently use it.

[lyric patrol]

sweaty was during DF

[keen dome]

It was chill in DF

[stuck arrow]

He's got higher ilvl and a 9% damage boost from 2pc.

Get 2pc.

[mint bobcat]

Not me getting zero tier from LFR/Normal/Herioc

[stuck arrow]

😭 me too.

[keen dome]

tier doesn't exist

[violet palm]

I can see it's being the case with the 3rd rogue and me. Also on the vanguard fight he deied and my dps skyrocketed for some reason

[gilded thistle]

he was stealing your gcds

get his ass

rogues sharing 1 braincell, only one can press buttons at a time

thats why there's only 1 per raid

[solemn isle]

yeah not because there is only 8 of us total

[solemn isle]

after the 3% aura buff I bet we make double digits

[gilded thistle]

i hope it ends up being noticeable

im tired of losing to our 3 frost mages

[lyric patrol]

if u think ur beating frost mage after a 3% buff...

[gilded thistle]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-crying-meme-doggo-crys-megan-soo-crying-dog-gif-5276199764143986284

let me dream

[keen dome]

Just swapblast them into a mechanic

nothin' to see here

[gilded thistle]

strats

[sacred magnet]

is chimaerus trink bugged on raidbots? yesterday it simmed like 0,7 upgrade over my trinkes but today its 10% lol

[lyric patrol]

maybe if they didnt shit on our aoe for no reason

[stuck arrow]

Solution is simple - find worse frost mages. 😂

[versed hawk]

do we hold dance for sectec unless we have sb up?

[jaunty heath]

thank god you can get warbound 😄

carying me

[stuck arrow]

I mean our aoe probably needed a nerf. We'll do well in keys I think. Just great damage profile for it.

Before nerf we legit dumpstered OL in AoE, too.

[torn cedar]

is the cringe useage of the guidon really worth it or would the feather be better

[neat whale]

anyone else know if its true that we gain 35%+ dmg in a 1 min sim from raid buffs? seems a little insane?

[hazy breach]

Feather is the same

[hollow spear]

I smell an alnseer hotfix coming in hot

[normal gyro]

yo It's a pleasure to fight with the tanks in terms of DPS

[wheat edge]

what a goddamn opener

puked on the keyboard

[hollow spear]

Big

[random mason]

you missed a shuriken storm press

[hollow spear]

Danse maxing even before pressing dance

[neat whale]

something is not right here??? one with raid buff one without..

[random mason]

yeah why are you simming 20s patchwerks

[hazy breach]

I mean its consumables too

The pot is stronk

[random mason]

and bloodlust

[hazy breach]

Bl is whatever

[stuck arrow]

But I mean generally - 30% doesn't sound crazy. 6% verse, shout, skyfury - that's 18% more damage right there basically.

[neat whale]

go open on a dummy for 20 secs... i promise you will do more than the sim. something is wrong

[hazy breach]

Then do it

That seems fine

[hazy lichen]

if im 6 cp with sectec sd up do i just press it or build to 7

[small minnow]

guys whats the command forr the talents ?

[neat whale]

something is wrong with the sims o.o

[random mason]

you're not using pot in any of your macros right?

and also do it like 200 times more and average it out

to account for crits and dmg variance

[small minnow]

!talents

!sheets

[stuck arrow]

I mean IDK. I don't think that sims really optimized for 20s pulls.

You might be sending double dance in shadow blades where they aren't based on your haste.

[neat whale]

I did have pot in my macro.. so did another poull

was at 92k

I will do a 4 min pull and compare as well just to see

[stuck arrow]

One pull doesn't really mean much my guy.

[random mason]

nono the sim is wrong man

[stuck arrow]

It's going to wander a bit based on crits and stuff.

[random mason]

it's undersimming

look at my blizzardTM damage meter

[sonic dirge]

Hey Guys,
I have a rogue friend who has Like average GS (255~) and he so freaking Low gains from HC Sims.

Especially the chest Token - he has non Set Veteran chest and the HC chest Sims worse.

Could it be Just secondady Stats, and maybe something With Puzzle Box?

The Link to the Sim:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dhN1hRf48RParWqMwstrbp

[main flower]

any ideas why my macro dont use my fleeting potions? :<

#showtooltip Shadow Blades
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Secret Technique
/use fleeting light's potential
/use 13

[hazy breach]

We love haste breakpoints

[stuck arrow]

Droptomizer is troll right now on Sub.

We've got kinda nasty haste breakpoints and droptomizer frequently breaks em.

[stuck arrow]

Use item ID. Game gets confused with name because several items have same name.

[main flower]

i try that, thanks

[proud vapor]

vessel of tortured souls is not better than crucible and puzzle box? its simming 1k down

[subtle jay]

did something changed on raidbots? im simming like 4k less than day before with the same gear

[hazy lichen]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nnAhGjJ4oSBWFVbEvMeArc honesty thought the shadow neck would sim higher wth

[grand viper]

so do we just feather like 1s~ before our next dance

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[random mason]

if you don't need the haste it's not as good

[hazy breach]

I didnt do anything so its on the backend

[frosty sinew]

pretty sure the sim is doing nothing with the proc on neck?

[dreamy jewel]

i mean, i can do decent dps in mythic dungeon as sub, but raid boss with adds and my dps falls like deck of cards

[hazy lichen]

prob

[hard cosmos]

Where can I see when does diminishing returns start??

[hazy lichen]

which specs want that neck the most

[daring pike]

put potion and trinket before sec tec

[hazy lichen]

sp and sub?

[neat whale]

you are correct, my 2 5 min pulls i was almost exactly at the sim, 250dps above on one and 550 dps above on the other, but the 20 sec sim is not optimized as you can be 20-40% above but im never below. looking into the 20 sec sim, its doing some weird double shadow strike right after sec tec.

[random mason]

anything with good haste scaling and haste breakpoints

[random mason]

!aa