subtlety

[keen dome]

It can be difficult if you have weird tanking, but swapping to adds asap and dropping stuff on them helps.

[iron shore]

Actually struggling on any, so...

[sweet moss]

How much dps increase is 2nd embelish giving us from belt/bracers?

Arcanoweave lining how much dps incerase is it bringing

[sick jackal]

does any1 have a sub rogue pov for crown of cosmos?

i wasnt able to find one on yt

[final pecan]

anyone got haste breakpoints? i gotta save that stuff somewhere so i dont look here for it all the time

[mighty citrus]

please stop 😄

this ??

is anoying 😄

[molten citrus]

I added it to the !stats command in #pvp, not sure if it’s on one in here

The faq says how much haste you want in pve I tho think

[ashen ibex]

Rogue 4set vs dk 0set

kekdog

[brisk onyx]

[vale pine]

Tho we get a 3% buff, will fix it

[ashen ibex]

trueee

[sullen spruce]

im noob, is this good for sub ?

[tame notch]

We are the only class in the game where no spec is actually good xd

[sullen spruce]

compared to this

[arctic heart]

which gear piece we ignoring in 4 piece?

if possible ofc

[untold rune]

Blizz really needed to revert those nerfs for UDK, how could they live among mortals for couple hours

[vale pine]

Nope. Ypu only want to use daggers

[sullen spruce]

ah ok thnx, what about outlaw?

[vale pine]

Outlaw can use it

[faint quail]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[quiet pagoda]

Should I proc apex for aoe spenders with supercharged cp's ?

[faint quail]

anything after 700 haste we go full mast?

[vale pine]

Mastery and crit

[sick dagger]

How good is neck from Alleria for sub?

[tame hearth]

yo chat, why do we use sd+sstorm in NS i understand we like to begin with low combo points because our shadowstrike just hits a lot and we cannot use it as first global cuz it dont work and you cannot press it until after .2 sec of dance or wahtever, but then why would we even start on low cp if we are forced to sstorm in st, cant we not just do same macro we use for trickster instead?

[tepid trellis]

tbf you sim less than me and i dont have 4 set xD

[hazy breach]

Good

[tepid trellis]

not that im close to 90k either but

[paper siren]

with the Algethar puzzle box , i need to cast it before Shadow Blades?

[alpine wraith]

before entering dance yes

[paper siren]

Cool

[alpine wraith]

storm sec tech strike evis 2 supercharged finishers if possible that evis is a DN one

[ashen ibex]

do i have intellect dagger?

[open depot]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pHCu5aoohEs7Q6gWRpJa4r

your sim seems low if that is with 4p

[faint quail]

w so much haste st doesnt line up w dance anymore, i just hold til supercharged/aa available?

[vale pine]

You use dance only if you have secret up

Outside of blades. You can use a 2nd dance without

[faint quail]

kk ty

[latent finch]

Im kinda confused. Without tier i use 2 dance in blades but only one secret technique and outside blades i dacne every time i get ST ready? And repeat?

[tropic field]

wait, we're not using dance unless ST is up?

[wicked fox]

nope you don't, unless you're in shadowblade

[stray vector]

Hey why do we prefer starting at 0 in deathstaljer

[tropic field]

but it feels like backstab only generates like 3 combo points?

[stray vector]

Isnt it always a point to get as many finishers?

During dance

[stuck tulip]

bro you guys are confusing me the fuck out

[final granite]

Agility (Item level) > Haste (650-700) >= Mastery = Crit > Vers
Man I think I rng'd into pvp gear or soemthing

[wicked fox]

yup, outside of dance you do no dmg and are energy starved, but it's better this way cuz sec tech is som much better during shadow dance

you can still vanish to get 1 shadow strike and go back to full combo points if you want

[hazy breach]

Shadow dance has charges, so you dont lose anything by holding it

[tropic field]

sometimes i get 2x charges on shadow dance, still not using it then?

[wicked fox]

I usually do this when i'm outside of dance and have coup de grace up

[tropic field]

man im so confused hahah

[hazy breach]

Well then you shouldve used it earlier

[stray vector]

I just went on training dummies and i do more dmg finishing sectec first

[hazy breach]

With the previous sectech

#subtlety-faq message

[tropic field]

ah okey

[stray vector]

So i dont get why start at 0

[wicked fox]

you can dance earlier if you can get sec tech cd during the dance

but it should be lined up

[stray vector]

Managed to get 1 extra evicserate in

[wicked fox]

idk about deathstalker sorry mate

[stray vector]

So i do not get it and serpico guy asked the same question noneone responded

[wicked fox]

I believe musguete did a great video about deathstalker

[hazy breach]

When premed is up you cannot proc an apex clone (since you are not expending) any combo points

So you want your unshakeable drive stacks to be spent on a strike that can proc a clone

And storm+macabre isnt that far off from a strike in terms of damage anyway

[tropic field]

Zayle i pmd you

[stray vector]

So that strike+clone+udrive is >dmg than xtra evisc

[stuck tulip]

how tf are you guys simming 1 target 75k without set?

[stray vector]

Is what ur tellin me

Okay ty

[hazy breach]

Its not necessarily an extra eviscerate

It depends on your procs

[stray vector]

Hmm

So on average i guess theb

I mean just seemed contraintuitive to storm

Ty eleem

[plush crescent]

anyone got a way to res valeera without clicking on her? I keep dying trying to res her because her model is so small compared to the ?? boss

[lilac stag]

Yes?

[stuck tulip]

Is there an addon that plays a sound or visual when tortured souls trinket procs?

cant see shit on the ground

[short radish]

check my opener

[sullen bridge]

Does anyone know why the Trickster cleave build for raid switches from mind numbing to entropic poison? 🙂

[lilac stag]

because utility doesn’t matter

[fading quartz]

Why are so many top logs using Crucible of Erratic Energies instead of Vessel?

[lilac stag]

Clearly you don’t have vessel to see how much fun collecting is

[keen dome]

I just press butons 🙂

[native parrot]

Read that as crucible of erotic energies ngl

[fading quartz]

Ahh so even if it sims higher it's just not that practical?

[grand galleon]

guys, any tips for Nullaeus ?? last phase? valeera always dies near orb and I cant seem to revive her due to this...is there any trick to move her while she is tanking the boss so we avoid orbs?

[mighty citrus]

at some point in our wow journey, we were all the guy in the middle 😄

[exotic steeple]

can you cleave the dragons in p3 with bp? when they are like 15 yards away from eo

[olive canyon]

does it matter which wep has the enchant for mastry vs acuity

[hazy breach]

No, nor does it matter if you have mastery on it or 2x acuity

[olive canyon]

nice thanks

[fallow ingot]

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/vessel-of-tortured-souls-tracker the addon is updated and have 10 selectable sounds and you can choose the sound chanel also !

[fading quartz]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hR47Az7TXVnwAwY4Ma9rWo why does crucible + puzzle sim so much lower?

[vale pine]

yes, you dance 2 times during baldes and outside of these 2 times always when secret is ready.
If blades is up soon (less than 10 sec cd left), you don't use dance/secret but hold it for blades

[vale pine]

👍

[fallow ingot]

Any feedback is welcome

[wet zodiac]

hey i was wondering how much haste do we need since dance length depends on it ? i've seen different statement about this

[latent finch]

do i use the second sec tec in blades without supercharger or hold it for the next one?

[vale pine]

if you get a 2nd secret ready during one of the dances in blades, you use secret there

[stray vector]

Nah im sitting on it and im still confused

I still do not understand going at 0 points into dance

With shuriken

I do understand shadowstrike

Kinda

But storm over extra evisc possibly

[steep raven]

Shadowstrike has delay before you can use it, shuriken doesn't. So to save SD time you use shuriken

Both will fill CP either way

[stray vector]

Ye but at that point why not enter full and start with sectec

[exotic steeple]

isnt it trickser everywhere anyway

[stray vector]

Check pins

[steep raven]

Trickster you go full cp, deathstalker at 0cp

It's just what hero talents prefers

[royal parrot]

Yo I have problem. I fight against ?? boss in delvs and sub have wierd issue - Vallera take all agro instead of me bcs sub have something in talents i guess - how to change that?

[stray vector]

Ah ok so it prefers it ok thx now i fully understand

Xdddd

[steep raven]

Shadow dance drops all threat, no way to deal with taht

[royal parrot]

FUCK

[dire tiger]

Hey guys how do you all sim your character on raidbots, I mean like what fight style do you guys use for raid simulation? Seeing that most of the fights have 3 or more targets

[steep raven]

I'm not a theorycrafter, but I trust what they say.

[stray vector]

Ye thats why im asking them i also trust

But i like to understand buttons im pressing

I will still do it dont get me wrong

But i guess mybe u get more sectecs this way so you almost always proc apex after every finisher so on avg you dont lose a finisher

[steep raven]

idk, but I'm gonna assume it results in more damage done

[exotic steeple]

why do we shadowstrike then and not shuriken there

[stray vector]

More shadow tecniques***

[exotic steeple]

on ds

[stray vector]

Ye i have read all the things dw

[dapper stirrup]

To procc apex talent?

[stray vector]

But u dont need it for sectec since it only applies to phys part

Ah whatever

Prolly there is no real intuitive answer

[foggy orchid]

guys anyone have talents to share?

[stray vector]

What elem said before is just not satifying enough for me xdd

[royal parrot]

So its impossible to do this boss right now on "??"? xD

[quick marlin]

i did it with a tank and a healer friend so just go in a party

[steep raven]

No, I did it

With Healer valeera

[stray vector]

And i also see top 2 logs on voracius they are playing ds but they press sectec first in ntheir opeebr

[steep raven]

You just have to res her sometimes

[stray vector]

Opener*

[spare barn]

Its also rng because u hope u don't die when ressing her

[shrewd lantern]

you have to immediately rez her

[steep raven]

Sit in green puddle, press feint and click Valeera. Can also add vial to it

[shrewd lantern]

as the boss swing is still going

[steep raven]

Evasion is guaranteed res

[royal parrot]

I see, i see

okay, wish me luck

[stray vector]

Gonna just w8 for fuu to explain until then im ctrl+f to see if he already answered it to someone

[shrewd lantern]

playing ds

💩

[stray vector]

Nvm fuu answered with "it sims better" to someone

Fuck me i guess

Funny how i was fine with outlaw rerolls being just math basically

And now im like grr

Ok after sittin on the dummy and counting my finishers seems like they just come more often if you start with ss to bank on shadow tech so it results in same amount of finishers esp when paired with apex optimization

So its usually like 4 finishers in both cases

This way u get an extra SS

[graceful osprey]

For first boss of voidspire? You all holding CDs for when adds come out especially right now since ilvl isn’t super high yet?

Or not worth holding?

[radiant haven]

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/imperator-averzian

[oak grotto]

How would you sim for the duoboss in Voidspire? Still Patchwerk one target even though it has adds and all that?

[ornate lake]

Chat what talents do we play on vanguard and crown? M+ talents for the trickster raid build?

[spiral bloom]

Congrats dude 🫡

[steep raven]

@oak grotto @ornate lake

• Potent Powder - Weaponmaster

[ornate lake]

And just BP on 2 and above targets?

[steep raven]

Yes

[jade urchin]

potent powder for cosmos kinda whatever

would take weaponmaster over it any day

[steep raven]

Oh

I thought they meant Dragons+Paladins

Yeah you play ST on Crown

Just make sure it's not DS

[ornate lake]

I guess the same build in dreamrift?

[steep raven]

Yeah, full ST

boss and big add is the most you gonna dmg

Small adds die in seconds

[quick marlin]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[velvet jay]

When I want to use The Algeth'ar Puzzle Box, can I use it before the pull of a raidboss or does it remove the buff when the boss fight starts?

[sour horizon]

God I hate puzzlebox being good

[velvet jay]

same

[sour horizon]

Its too much of a pain in the ass that I wont use it lol, rather sit on the haste proc wind one from spire

[rain stratus]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[frigid ingot]

If anyone has the time to help me with a log review, 10-15 mins would highly appreciate it!

[rain kernel]

!UP

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1484624630764273745/drops.png

[radiant swift]

is there somenthing that changed in sims? robot keeps saying crit

im on 27% already

[torn tide]

i hate when i start the fight and i have to sit there to cast it before anything else

[vale osprey]

Anyone know if this is incorrect now? Someone yesterday said myth crests are only from +9 and above now

[glad cosmos]

Ingame tooltip suggests +9 and above

[olive citrus]

do you guys just AOE on vanguard fight?

[carmine bear]

Has Fuu talked about how to play around Puzzle box? no way we hold SB 30s right?

[frigid ingot]

!log

[mossy spear]

would u guys upgrae hc dagger to 6/6?

[stoic anchor]

Do u guys not have 3 set, like hello? Xd

[stoic anchor]

Pins. 3 targets yes 2 targets st

[hazy breach]

Hold it for every other blades

[sour horizon]

Yeah exactly lol feels like forever

[lean bone]

3 min trinket

[old cedar]

Was just about to ask this, seems so scuffed to hold the SB for like 20+ sec

[stoic anchor]

Guys I joined a pug, parsed on the way to 99, flamed the other 2 grey parses rogues and left, was that toxic, or deserved?

[swift tinsel]

[carmine bear]

Okai we treat it like a 3min

thx guys was curious if we could send into a regular mini cd or what the point was

[stoic anchor]

Every pug I join there are pumpers and 3-4 ppl getting dragged. If replaced those 3-4 ppl most pugs with be at aotc last boss, fr fr, on god

[swift tinsel]

okay and

its a heroic pug the first week

[sour horizon]

Hey just to let you know, youre kinda a dickhead. Cheers

[unkempt walrus]

guys i joined a pug and was toxic, was that toxic, or deserved?

[winter galleon]

Rogue solid a tier into m+?

[stoic anchor]

Im kidding man, am a dad gamer, don't have forever to wipe on bosses just want to get it done

[sour horizon]

My comment stands

[stoic anchor]

need dragons and chimaerus and am happy

don't agree but ok

[swift tinsel]

its a shit move

[stoic anchor]

Let's agree to disagree

[sour horizon]

No

[stoic anchor]

I'm worried tonight that I can't kill the 2 dragons and chimaerus in aprox 3 hours or so

[sour horizon]

You asked for an opinion, you got it

[swift tinsel]

flaming people who you know nothing about the first week of raid who may be playing the spec for the first time is a major shithead move

[stoic anchor]

Which should be rly rly doable

I didn't flame dude. I came here to vent. U get muted in game if u say anything. Anyway i'll drop it.

[swift tinsel]

you asked, we told

[sour horizon]

Join a guild, doubt any decent will keep you though

[quick marlin]

join a guild

[stoic anchor]

I didnt flame them, i wanted to. Kk

[cursive vapor]

[swift tinsel]

[quick marlin]

[stoic anchor]

[oblique spade]

During the second dance of my Shadow Blades, Secret Technique comes off CD with about 4 seconds left. Should I send the Secret Technique then or end with evis and start a new dance with the Sec Tec?

[swift tinsel]

"I said I did something then when people pushed back I said I didn't"

[frigid ingot]

if i put my log in !log is someone going to review that there?

[stoic anchor]

Due to irl working schedule i have to pug and I don't have much time to play til reset and im worried i won't be able to kill those 2 bosses left til reset. Get it smartass?

[quick marlin]

You said you have 3 hours tonight

[unkempt walrus]

your schedule dictates how you get to behave towards others?

[stoic anchor]

I got 3 hours tonight and i can play tuesday

[unkempt walrus]

makes sense

[sour horizon]

The only good move this guy did was leave that pug

[quick marlin]

[rough granite]

Why is this anyone's problem other than yours and why does it justify your actions?

[cursive vapor]

Ahhh being a dick is okay then

[keen dome]

The reason people consider pugging toxic, demonstrated.

[stoic anchor]

:))) alright. You're right my bad

[keen dome]

You can be frustrated at people. That's natural. But attacking people never achieves anything in a pug setting. Just leave or make your own so you can control who joins and doesn't.

But flaming other people for poor damage is needless

[stoic anchor]

No, no, you're right , my bad.

[frigid ingot]

are there people that do log reviews from !log?

[oblique spade]

During the second dance of my Shadow Blades, Secret Technique comes off CD with about 4 seconds left. Should I send the Secret Technique then or end with evis and start a new dance with the Sec Tec?

[keen dome]

Probably, but it's very much down to people having time and energy to do it. You can try and someone might be able to advise. Not me though I'm terrible.

[near herald]

could someone explain me that i dont understand this part

[keen dome]

Effectively:

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[keen dome]

You want to get the Apex proc up if you've got a supercharged combie available, and have 5+ stacks of Shadow Techniques. Which you can then force by sending a builder (Shadowstrike, etc) to trigger it before sending the supercharge finisher

So you might go Dance strike sectec strike strike eviserate.

[rough granite]

Does anyone know if raidbots is set up to sim Puzzlebox at 3 min currently?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[near herald]

this shit is complex lol

[hazy breach]

Its not really

In practice it should happen by itself most of the time as trickster

[near herald]

superchargefinisher is where i get 2 times finisher thing?

[quick marlin]

its the2 blue ones

from Supercharger talents

[keen dome]

It's when you supercharge a combo point (it becomes blue) after pushing dance, and have Supercharger talented.

[sour horizon]

Sorry youve been missed, I believe you want to supercharge every sectec so wait that 4 sec for new dance

Timing is wonky until you get that haste breakpoint

[dense geode]

so are we shadowstriking to get this to proc or something

[near herald]

i have like 19% haste

[near herald]

durring dance?

[oblique spade]

ah okay sweet, that does make sense - thank you.

[keen dome]

Both parts of it

[dense geode]

Why would you need to Strike for that

With the apex optimization

[sour horizon]

Dance will supercharge first 2 finishers, as trickster you wanna enter dance at full cp to instantly hit sectec

[dense geode]

When Im at max combo points, strike again, what is the benefit im getting for doing it

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[keen dome]

Shadowstrike generates combo points

[north garnet]

How do you guys feel about taking weaponmaster instead of first dance for m+?

[sour horizon]

Ya, you should always have a dance ready for sectec, so if youre at the tail end of a dance wait those few seconds to reenter a new dance so sectec is supercharged

[dense geode]

Right shadowstrike generates combo points, but if im already full. why am I not just sending a evis into another shadowstrike.

What is the benefit

[hazy breach]

To get that proc

[oblique spade]

yeah im at 22% haste so it's no issue, was just wondering on the correct usage of the sec tec that comes back up during that 2nd dance

thank you for clarifying 🙂

[keen dome]

You are forcing the ancient arts proc to let you instantly refill combies after sending a finisher.

[dense geode]

so if you didnt have the proc you would never get the refill

[pulsar hemlock]

[hazy breach]

If you dont have the proc that refunds you will not get the refund correct

[sour horizon]

Np! Sorry you got overlooked first time, I did see you ask twice.

[oblique spade]

Nah all good, people were busy chatting 🙂

[soft oriole]

Didn’t we used to have something that would refund our cp. did they really just make our apex something we used to have anyways

[keen dome]

And by striking, you are forcing the proc to get the refund

[dense geode]

Im failing to understand what difference a shadow strike x2 vs a Shadow strike > Evis > Strike does. Does this only matter outside of Blades.

[hazy breach]

It buffs your supercharged finisher

So it does more damage

[sour horizon]

Ya shadowcraft iirc was the talent name lol

[hazy breach]

Because when you get the refund

You expend combo points

so the first apex procs

[hazy breach]

Yes, but with an animation

[frigid ingot]

If any experienced pumper can have a look over my logs and explain where i m doing huge mistakes would appreciate it.

[dense geode]

Man im so lost. Im just missing what the difference is between these 5 globals lol

[hazy breach]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923898501529600/1485299436857987244/image.png?ex=69c15c65&is=69c00ae5&hm=5153bb10982802c8edaa2312075d98b1e4f745f7298c9b2df48eadc66e036217&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=206&height=89

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923898501529600/1485299332813946920/image.png?ex=69c15c4c&is=69c00acc&hm=40d7558027020884f4d65b2f20cae30376c671988a38a7acc8158d56943a6663&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=243&height=106

[dense geode]

Is it that without procing the apex the Rank 1 doesnt turn on either

[hazy breach]

You spawn a clone of your finisher

That does finisher damage

[dense geode]

Right

[hazy breach]

So your finisher does more damage

[dense geode]

Right

[hazy breach]

And having your big finisher do more damage

is

good

[dense geode]

I understand that

[keen dome]

And you want that with your supercharged combie for more damage

So instead of RNG you can strike a second time while ST => 5 to force the proc, and then make sure it happens

[dense geode]

but im not understand why procing the Apex does this. Is the Rank 1 of the Apex talent not on by default is why?

[hazy breach]

???

You dont get the clones

If you dont have the proc

[dense geode]

Ok so THATS why we are procing it

[hazy breach]

Because then the finisher doesnt expend combo points

[keen dome]

Damage attacks that EXPEND Shadow Techniques to generate combo points..

After attacks that generate combo points, if 5 or more stacks of Shadoe Techniques remain, your next damaging move will EXPEND them

[deft silo]

wait so does it not matter to buff non-supercharged finshers during dance?

[dense geode]

We are dbl Striking because Rank 1 of the Apex isnt activated

well i guess all of it isnt activated.

[keen dome]

Ye

[dense geode]

just that main part is the dmg part

[keen dome]

You are forcing it to activate at the best moment you can

[dense geode]

Okay I understand now thank you

[sour horizon]

Basically gaming the system for max effect

[keen dome]

The wording is very specific in the tooltip and it's not super clear until you get the idea.

[dense geode]

I just assumed the Rank 1 portion of the Apex Talent was always active.

[hazy breach]

It is

Just not on finishers

Because they dont give any combo points

[dense geode]

I see

so we are double striking to gain apex talent basically to stack SHT.

[gaunt widget]

Do we take shiv, toxic stiletto and numbing posion when we raid?

[dense geode]

so they expend the CP to get the extra dmg

[keen dome]

Yeah, precisely

We're gaming it so it procs the expend part on finishers to do the damage part

[dark roost]

for people using puzzlebox as sub, are you holding shadow blades for 30s for it? or just using it every other blades?

[keen dome]

hence the 5+ staccks of ShadowT echniques

[hazy breach]

every other

[dark roost]

on that note, since its 90s it doesnt line up perfectly with dance, are people holding it for 100s so they can double dance during?

[tribal vortex]

Eleem probably with tier it will get fixed but now where we have like 2sec in the end of blades to cast a sectec do we use it? Or wait to supercharge it?

[near herald]

so we are not double finishier move ?

[hazy breach]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[tribal vortex]

@hazy breach

[vocal rock]

Would be cool if our rotation gets to the point where we are always SSing on full cps and only using finishers with 0 cps, maybe one day

[hollow spear]

If this channel has taught me one thing, it's that people are incapable of even scrolling up half a screen

[raw ridge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[sour horizon]

I wanna say its coz its fairly active and scrolling up can be a totally different conversation, but yeah it happens a lot that we just answered a question and someone asks again right after xD

[hollow spear]

just noticed because I read the conversation with the toxic pugger

[hollow spear]

and saw the same question pop up like 3 or 4 times

with an answer being given 😄

[sour horizon]

Was a nice chuckle while at work tbh

[near herald]

i use sd befor pull? 😂

[sour horizon]

Just once at any time so store 2 charges

[leaden prairie]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sour horizon]

Preferably 30sec before pull xD

[near herald]

aight thanks

[manic swift]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[sour horizon]

Just make sure you still have 2 dance charges ready

[golden totem]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1484624630764273745/drops.png

[vocal rock]

Anyone try T11 nullaeus solo yet? How hard is it with sub

[leaden prairie]

@hazy breach how do i sim with priority rotation = 1

[near herald]

and how do u sim your self when raidbots wants 500 haste but we need 600-700?

[leaden prairie]

i legit forgot how variables work

[wispy cosmos]

Can someone explain why all ppl play with Trickster when deathstalker sim better on mono?

[errant pagoda]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Shadow Dance before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press Dance early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[fiery fog]

because trickster is better when there is a little cleave
on vorasius and salhadaar ds is probably better (but people generally dislike deathstalker and refuse to play it )

[west bough]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[brave moth]

So is this trink sim bait

[acoustic lodge]

If i got a 253 axe.. Should I put it in my off-hand? lol

[spiral needle]

sort of, in a hectic encounter it won't be as good as the sim, but it isn't bad either

[tribal vortex]

in any fights where adds exist you should probably plau trickster

[gilded ferry]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[mossy spear]

im blue parsing in heroic

gg im old

[gilded ferry]

is it worth to delay a bit dance+sectec to enter dance with 5 or more secret techniques?

[jaunty heath]

do we have race sims

apparently its panda season

[tribal vortex]

yeah panda and mecha are the best

[spiral needle]

is panda actually significantly better or is it the usual .5%

[bleak night]

i think its around a morbillion percent

sims mightve updated since then though

[keen dome]

it's panda% better

[leaden prairie]

no its more like 1/2% than .5

[winged shore]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=265657/fiber-of-living-agony haven't seen this trink ranked on anybody's lists at all. I got a hero one from my delve chest this week. anybody done any testing? on the surface it seems like a crit version of heart of wind so should be decent?

[valid yoke]

Potential noob question - wowhead labels light company guidon as a bis trinket. Why? Does it allow for an interaction I’m not thinking of? I would’ve thought puzzle box would be better

[lucid jackal]

Puzzlebox is 2 min

[winged shore]

my assumption is b/c 1.5 min cd

[lucid jackal]

Blades is 1:30

[valid yoke]

Ahhhhh

[jaunty heath]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[valid yoke]

Longer dances during blades then I guess?

[swift tinsel]

longer dances, can help fit 2nd sectech during lust

and also no other stat-granting 1.5min trinkets

[winged shore]

puzzle box is still very solid though

[swift tinsel]

ye

[valid yoke]

Appreciate the info

[swift tinsel]

solid but the cast time is annoying

[winged shore]

I think puzzle box is probably even generally better for m+

since depending on packs you may not send sb right on cd

[analog ruin]

I got the same thing from my delve and it does not sim well. Havent really tried using it though

[winged shore]

I haven't spent crests to level so I'm still using a champ Solarflare prism right now

seems like a slightly worse version of that

[swift tinsel]

I'm a big solarflare prism believer

[winged shore]

yeah right now with haste food and weapon buffs I'm at 20% haste so I like the crit

pared with puzzle box rn

[north garnet]

Are these good for us?

[swift tinsel]

I also think its more valuable than a random haste proc like the Spire trinket

[winged shore]

I was thinking the same thing. an on-use haste is more valuable than random haste IMO

[hollow raptor]

The stats are good

[swift tinsel]

ye

[analog ruin]

Theyre fine. It wont matter next week

[swift tinsel]

stats good bonus good

[iron ibex]

@winged shore I’m curious myself some people recommend 18% haste flat without buffs or 18% with all the buffs and just go for other stats after?

[swift tinsel]

650-700 haste rating after buffs/enchants/gems

[winged shore]

yeah 18 is the min, in practice I'm not a perfect gamer by any means, so I've found around 20% is a little more forgiving for me

[iron ibex]

And that’s total with all the raids buffs?

[tropic field]

Anyone here good with logs?

[winged shore]

right now I'm right around 18 without buffs, but again that's just my personal preference since I'm by no means the best pilot

[zinc kayak]

Could someone tell if there are some mistakes in the opener? ^^ Sub + DS

[winged shore]

that's why I'm sticking with the crit trink for now also since I'm running a little haste heavy baseline

[near herald]

can someone tell me how they sim correctly since we want more haste then sim tells us?

[near herald]

so we actually double evis?

[dry plank]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[vocal rock]

I got a hero track Withered Saptor’s Paw from my delve chest… haven’t decided if I’m going to dump my hero crests into it

[near herald]

does this yes mean yes double evis?? fuck me xD

[sharp lake]

Is it important to use Secret Technique with an Ancient Arts proc? Usually If I Dance with full combo points and then Sectec it doesn’t have AA

[open depot]

dont spend hero this week

[vocal rock]

I’ll stay strong, it’s just hard to resist upping my ilvl lol

[dry plank]

Yes we do

Only optimization is that described

[open depot]

I got 256

I am gonna stay happy for now

[fathom adder]

is the puzzlebox usage in the opener just strike -> box -> cds and box into cds during the fight or something fancy?

[cursive tundra]

Is there any way of tracking the vessel of tortured souls procs? Like play a sound effect when it spawns? It is impossible to see that shit, worse than antenna

[left ledge]

You used storm then pressed dance right after into strike, that’s really bad for your dps. As DS you want to dance and storm at the same time so macro dance and storm, then you also never want to strike first as DS as the stance delay will lead to you losing a gcd.

Just work on your gcds basically

Maybe read the faq a bit

[open depot]

No

Enjoy addon-lessness

[cursive tundra]

Amazing

meet potential-trinket

has a huge stat pool

procs often

impossible to see or use

[near herald]

so basicly it says get that double evis boost?

[eager yoke]

hey whats the best way to use puzzle box in opener of a boss fight?

shadowstrike from stealth on pull then puzzle box into cds?

[neat tree]

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/vessel-of-tortured-souls-tracker

[strong crypt]

Can you not puzzle box pre pull?

[versed fiber]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shrewd lantern]

no

[north garnet]

Do you think this little vers is troll?

[tulip light]

no we dont want vers

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade we did it team

[hollow raptor]

maybe just a little vers

[west tide]

grats!!!

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[plush pecan]

Can you already make the dagger 272? with hero crests?

[lilac stag]

yes, but why would you

[plush pecan]

Just asking

[lilac stag]

as am I lol

[plush pecan]

I would cause I dont raid mythic, thats for one. But was mostly curious

[bronze hatch]

trickster or deathstalker for st?

[trim lake]

You’ll get mythic crest from keys that are fairly low rank it’s better to save your hero crest for you hero tier that you’ll most likely keep for longer since you don’t raid mythic

[plush pecan]

Thanks, was looking for such a response. Appriciate it

[swift tinsel]

There’s also three potential daggers you can get in hero track from end-of-dungeon/myth track vault starting next week as well

[eager yoke]

so we hold shadowblades for 30 seconds to line it up with algethar puzzle box?

[fiery fog]

no you use 2 min trinkets as 3 min

[eager yoke]

ah sorry didnt see pinned message just did thanks for saying also

[trim lake]

Depending on where you sit at right now in gear you could full send your champ crest especially if you have champ tier. As if you have 2 pc or 4 pc the only way you’ll replace that is if you get the hero equivalent. Another little tip on saving things save you catalysts until after your first vault.

[hearty mural]

quick question..are the combo points from shadow tech the combo points you get back after using a spender?

[swift tinsel]

Yes

It’s like an extra bank of combo points that the apex talent will pull from

[hazy breach]

That is from shadow techniques yes, but it's not the only thing shadow techniques does

[hearty mural]

what else does it do? i dont see anything else in the description

[hazy breach]

It's a passive in your spellbook

[hearty mural]

oh i skimmed it..i see

[hazy breach]

You just put that in any of the advanced mode boxes but I haven't really messed around with it so I doubt it's accurate

[hearty mural]

do u have to pay attention to it..or just play ur rotation

i already know about apex talents on how to fish for a proc..but does shadow techniques tie into that

[sly shore]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow spear]

Yes, you need five stacks to even "fish" for a "proc"

[hearty mural]

oh shit didnt know that

thx

[tulip light]

DO NOT DO IT U RE CRAFT WITH MYTHIC CREST AND WASTE ALL THE HC CRESTS

[hardy agate]

Got Lucky with trinkets, but still zero set pieces

[void ocean]

ask Arteta for help

[fleet acorn]

You could have 2 with - 1 is free and 1600 pvp

[plush pecan]

do we fish for apex arts proc or do we just blast away?

[hardy agate]

I think i will keep my catalyst charge to make 4 set

[plush pecan]

I saw a video saying its marginal

[hazy breach]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[plush pecan]

ahh, so the 3 conditions have to be active, else finish

im getting old.. hate tracking shit this way haha

[hazy breach]

It just looks way more complicated than it actually is

[gilded ferry]

anyone?

i saw perfecto doing something like this, wanted to know

[hazy breach]

In practice you should get it passively after your first strike, and if you dont youll for sure get it after the second one

[swift tinsel]

Should be pooling a few seconds before sending dance

[void ocean]

shadow techniques

[hazy breach]

Well no, you dont want to delay

[swift tinsel]

And Sectech grants stacks

[hazy breach]

But not finishing a few seconds before you intend to dance is good yes

[plush pecan]

Thanks

[hazy breach]

Because of what i said in the message after

[final granite]

whats like best way to use puzzle box in opener? like pre pull?

[hazy breach]

After strike, just before blades

[gilded ferry]

i know that in faq it states to hold if 10 or less remaining in blades cd

but, ive been having a different experience, if it only hold after 11s, it doesnt always sync up 2 dances in 1 blades

am i rotating wrong outside of blades?

[swift tinsel]

You stop sending dances then wait til you can fit 2x in blades by holding blades

[gilded ferry]

even if i have to hold for like, 15 to 20 seconds?

[swift tinsel]

It should be less than that, generally 10-15ish

But yeah we’re not a strict 1.5min spec anymore

Flexible cooldowns or whatever

[gilded ferry]

because if im sending dance + sectec and i have blades in 20s, it usually does not sync up for me

[swift tinsel]

[leaden prairie]

I can't get it to work I think I'm a noob

Never used it before so

[swift tinsel]

It should if your Sectech cd is ~20 seconds

[gilded ferry]

i miss symbols man

[leaden prairie]

But I guess I can just ask

How much of a prio loss is it to bp rn

On like 3t or whatever

2/3 t

Also is shuriken storm on 3 target in dance worth for AOE damage or also for prio

[gilded ferry]

zac why have you forsaken your cf status

[leaden prairie]

I exercised my right to complain a little too much I think I don't exactly remember

Was long ago noow

No ragret

[lilac kestrel]

!logs

[leaden prairie]

4

[hearty mural]

is it mandatory to have 5 stacks of shadow techniques before going to shadow dance..or is it situational

[civic lava]

Certainly not the first, but happy nonetheless 😄

[hearty mural]

tuff

[rocky axle]

hey what sim mode do you use for Crown fight ? Hectic add cleave looking good no ?

Also, it makes me think maybe Ranger-captn trinket could be really good here right ?

[steel horizon]

how many attempts

[crystal bone]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1484624630764273745/drops.png

[civic lava]

Anyway to check ? i'd say around a dozen

[steel horizon]

yea usually dbm shows after a wipe

im going nuts 64 attempts in currently. did you do the thing where you just juggle aggro with dance everytime you get low hp?

[north garnet]

Treat emberwing like 3 minute trinket right?

[random prawn]

Is there any more tunning before mythic release?

[fluid lintel]

Hi this might be a silly question, but when do we use vanish?

[torn tide]

yea, treat any 2min trinket like a 3min trinket

[fluid lintel]

I don't see it in the guide

[hollow spear]

People were talking about minor changes on Monday, but I don't expect anything for us

[torn tide]

nahh what u should say is "i expect us to get a 50% damage increase on bp and 100% increase on evisc"

[north garnet]

oh my god

[hollow spear]

Sorry forgot my script

[north garnet]

its 2 min

[spiral steeple]

out of curiosity... why don't we use gloomblade?

it's just a better backstab isn't it

[hazy rain]

Anywhere i can post for log review? im clearly missing something as im constantly bottom of the damage charts

[hollow spear]

Other talent points beat it

[warm marlin]

The best prio trade off by far was continuing to do the apex thing for BP

Was like +10-15% prio for 5-10% overall loss

[cloud barn]

Hit us with the secret tech and tips I am losing my mind on this fight

[quick marlin]

!log

[spiral steeple]

I figured this was the answer lol

[hollow spear]

What does apex thing for bp mean?

[torn tide]

i assume its where we get apex proc and just spam bp with it

[warm marlin]

Like you’d keep doing the strike aa cheese well above 3 targets

Big strike prio, regain some overall via apex on BP

[hollow spear]

Ah that way round

Interesting, I just storm at 4+

Will look into it

[lilac stag]

It was a pretty significant gain when fuu did numbers

but that was a week or so ago

[hollow spear]

Will probably be more relevant the higher your keys go

[oak grotto]

Do you use ST trinkets or AoE trinkets you reckon for this fight?

[mighty citrus]

puh we are really ass on paladin boss i guess

just did it hc and have to say

lol 😄

[hollow spear]

Our profile is ass for paladin

[agile spoke]

idk pally i parsed 91... although it's normal...

[hollow spear]

Your parse doesn't matter

[mighty citrus]

i did 97 and was like second above tank

sure

[agile spoke]

top dmg

[agile spoke]

gamer

[mighty citrus]

as said

not about parse

but about being slightly above tank on that boss

[hollow spear]

Top damage on paladins as sub? Did you play with handless gamers?

[agile spoke]

with their face

[hollow spear]

It takes one lock or mm hunter just sitting on their keyboard to beat our asses

[agile spoke]

correction behind a lot looking at wrong

pretty much every class... monk was top

[slim stag]

Is sub get buff again ???

[agile spoke]

is 3% a big buff?

Been seeing a lot of sins pump lately...

[civic lava]

My valeera is 34 , might have helped, played with mantle and the one that give a dps boost after xsec in fight. I blasted boss at the start, then uses dance when i wanted to have valeera take damages. I managed to make her die when the boss summoned adds twice, so i could rez her easily

[polar solar]

with apex talent proc do you double eviscerate while in shadow dance or shadowstrike to proc it again before 2nd eviscerate?

[quick fox]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hazy breach]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[dense jasper]

i run sims, and it wants to drop me to 15% haste when i can easily get 18% + max mastery. i then run droptimizer in that same gearset, and it says pieces are upgrades that i have it just told me to take off. i feel like i'm missing something

[polar solar]

Eleem so it only matters for first 2 finishers with supercharged cp?

[shadow lance]

I've read you don't want to proc it on sectech

[grand galleon]

is it worth upgrading HC dagger with hero crests?

[hazy breach]

!premed

[wicked jolt]

There is a bug that makes it so while Premeditation is active you cannot get a refund nor spawn the clone from Ancient Arts. This is not something you need to play around, as using Ancient Arts of Secret Technique is about the same value as using it on a regular Eviscerate.

[hazy breach]

This will eat your sectech proc anyway

So it doesnt matter

[shadow lance]

Yes, that's it

So, you just have to look if you have buff after your sectech at max cp

[radiant swift]

we get only one aa opt in dance right? one is always gone with stec?

[shadow lance]

Legit never happens if you wait few second at max cp before dancing

[polar solar]

still its only for first 2 finishers since u get 2 supercharged cp when u activate sd right?

so first 2 eviscerates

[shadow lance]

No, only the second

[agile spoke]

Is vessel/puzzle the trinket combo or nah?

[shadow lance]

Cuz sectech eat the first supercharged cp

[polar solar]

true

[shadow lance]

If you like tracking Vessel proc, yes

[polar solar]

so after that we eviscerate 2 times wth procs we dont shadowstrike to proc it anymore during that sd ?

[agile spoke]

what would you use if not... maybe heart of wind?

[shadow lance]

Whatever sims the highest

[hazy rain]

!log

[shadow lance]

Correct

[polar solar]

ty g

[agile spoke]

atm void mandate and vessel seem to be sim'n higher than vessel/puzzle and it's a vet trink

or prism/crucible

[shadow lance]

Yes, but mandate won't scale with ilvl

[agile spoke]

true

[shadow lance]

So, it might be good now but not next week

[grand galleon]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1484624630764273745/drops.png

[sick jackal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dapper lynx]

I felt so

[open depot]

you felt wrong

[crimson ember]

Regarding the apex talent. Do we ALWAYS want to proc it inside shadow dance, etc, or only during bloodlust / for supercharged?

[open depot]

next week u craft with mythic and u just spent crests on your smallest upgrade piece

[dapper lynx]

And when I craft mythic this will become my OF /shrug

[hazy breach]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[dapper lynx]

It;ll be ahwile before we see double mythic daggys

[subtle jay]

if u feel like u're lacking dps - go for it

[hazy breach]

Idk its just wasting hero crests

Unless you know you wont do +10s to get myth crests

[hollow spear]

Offhand is our worst slot

[dapper lynx]

We gonna be swimming in hero crests by end of week 3 most likely to the point theyll just be upgrade fodder within weeks

[open depot]

We wont

not this time around

[wintry holly]

!MACRO

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hazy breach]

If youre doing the later mythic bosses that drop above 1/6 and you get a lot of loot from them ye maybe

But if youre getting 1/6 loot you want to use your hero crests so that the first upgrade isnt costing you mythic crests

And if youre doing those then theres no point sending the hero crests on the dagger anyway because youll get myth crests fast

Idk

[edgy marlin]

is it worth upgrading crafted weapon with hero crests or just wait?

[vale osprey]

No

As the conversation right above you is about

Unless you will never touch +9 keys or myth raid

[crimson ember]

I apologize, but do I only do it if all of those conditions are met? Stupid question, but if I have shadow dance up, and 5 or more stacks of Shadow Tecniques, but i do NOT have a supercharged combo point, do I stil try to activate it?

[hazy breach]

The emote is because the answer is LITERALLY the message right above yours

[edgy marlin]

i typed my question without scroll down the unread msgs witch is my bad

[hearty mural]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[quick fox]

Do I use Black Powder on Lightblinded Vanguard when I can only hit 2 bosses?

[ornate lake]

Assuming you're running potent powder, yes

[open depot]

People be like "Should i send hero crests to maximaze my damage this week?" While progressing the dragon boss on their last raid night of the week

[hearty mural]

anyone know why i cant copy the talent string off the fuu document page

[ornate lake]

Top 5 dps for hc saladbar with a pug
Green logs

I'm so hecking tired boss

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-infinity-war-marvel-day-heavy-toll-gif-14497732

[subtle jay]

just go for boss dmg

or pugs cant clear adds at all?

[ornate lake]

No swap?

[ornate lake]

They do clear though. I was shuffling darkest nights in the adds though

[subtle jay]

play trickster and just dont switch ur target from dragon standing on the ground

[ornate lake]

But same shit on first boss man. Top 5 dps (67Kish) and still green logs

Do I play M+ build there and pad on the adds?

[subtle jay]

nah just go for default trickster talents

[raw ridge]

is the addon blizzkili good?

[quaint remnant]

any advice to do more damage in raids:

?

[subtle jay]

do you raid with pugs or with guild

[quaint remnant]

pugs

why?

[keen dome]

Recruit worse players

[subtle jay]

it affects how fights usually go and how adds being kept around the bosses

[keen dome]

But also: practice.

[quaint remnant]

but i don't know what im doing wrong actually

[keen dome]

That's absolutely true though. Also higher damage in raid = higher damage for you in a lot of cases as you'll have better timings, better movement, better kill timers.

It'd help if you had something to share to show your damage.

[quaint remnant]

i have some logs

[red flame]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-thinking-monkey-thinking-think-money-gif-9734025314392564509

[quaint remnant]

but it's awfull

im very sad with the logs lmao

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/area-52/duezinho

my parse is like

the worst i ever had in all classes that i played

[oak sorrel]

so we're just the worst thing in existence on paladins huh

[subtle jay]

that's pretty tricky thing kinda
im just not swapping targets and going for bosses most of the time except averzian and chimareus where big adds have to die quickly

and that's pretty much how i parsed 99-100

[quaint remnant]

Could you please take a look at my logs?

[quaint remnant]

my parses are like 15

dude

[subtle jay]

send it here

[quaint remnant]

im crying

lmao

[subtle jay]

couple logs for same boss

[quaint remnant]

Here @subtle jay

[hazy breach]

Youre missing tons of globals in dance

[wintry holly]

Hey all, has anyone found any good alert-type addons for trinkets like Vessel of Tortured Souls? Definitely missing a few of these damn orbs.

[south kernel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[quaint remnant]

I use a macro,

[wooden wagon]

would you mind looking over my log as well real quick? I have a thread https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1484992973623136426

no worries if not

[quaint remnant]

How i can improve that?

[hazy breach]

Idk press buttons, be in range

[subtle jay]

dont swap targets on vorasius to go for those leeches or how are they called + dont play m+ talents in this encounter

also that's gonna be pretty straightforward advice but: https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/vorasius

[rapid estuary]

How do i optimally use puzzlebox

[hazy breach]

Right before every other blades

[rapid estuary]

do i hold it for 3m blades?

[ornate heron]

you cant use puzzlebox before the pull right?

[hazy breach]

You can, but its not worth

[quaint remnant]

nice one

[rapid estuary]

so Stealth --> ShadowStrike --> Box --> Rotation? on opener

[quaint remnant]

thx

[quaint remnant]

ooh nice

i don't know if my stats are okay

[hazy breach]

Im not sure what you want me to tell you about that. You press dance and then youre not hitting anything for 2 seconds

[quaint remnant]

Im just asking, lol chill

[noble stirrup]

question about haste breakpoints. Currrently at 525 haste without buffs (oils flask etc), raidbots defaults to mastery flask. With haste flask and oil id go to 722, with mastery im at 557. Am I better off using the haste flask til i get more haste in gear for the breakpoints, since iirc the sims dont account for slower reaction time?

[red flame]

2 quick questions that kind of go hand in hand w eachother:

• does sectec need to be max CP (7) every single time or are there some exceptions?
• notably, if i'm in a scenario where backstab is cucking me & i only have 6 CP but sectec + dance are ready to send, do i sit there & wait for energy regen to backstab for my 7th CP or do i just send everything @ 6CP ?

sorry if thats a dumb question

[open depot]

He is quite chill

[hazy breach]

Can send at 6

[quaint remnant]

i'll try to don't switch targets that much

[red flame]

gotcha could defo be where im fucking up
i always backstab for 7 cp sectecs xd

defo makes sense why my backstabs are so mugh higher than high parsers

[quaint remnant]

i think im moving too much

[subtle jay]

your stats are good but you definitely should go fight some dummies in city to understand the rotation in ST scenario

[real panther]

where can I check how many parry boss did on warcraftlogs ?

[subtle jay]

why do you open with blades and then going suriken storm

https://klipy.com/gifs/jgmm-monkey-think

[quaint remnant]

yeah, i was using a macro

[subtle jay]

SD + storm macro is for deathstalker

[quaint remnant]

i didn't knew about that

[red flame]

also doesnt DS enter dance w 0 CP & trick enters w max CP ?

bc of the macro

[subtle jay]

your opener have to be shadowstrike from invis - > SB + SD + sectec

[quaint remnant]

i see!

[subtle jay]

well there're some explanations to every macro i believe so just pay attention mate

[quaint remnant]

Can i have a macro for all three?

[subtle jay]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[quaint remnant]

SB SD and ST

[hazy breach]

#subtlety-faq message

[warm marlin]

the third one there should maybe have a disclaimer about guidon

[hazy breach]

Bottom question

[quaint remnant]

Nice

[warm marlin]

oh nvm doesnt have dance

[wide shale]

for the BP/Coup macor, isnt there situations where you maybe want to hold coup for a next big pull?

[hazy breach]

There definitely are situations like that ye

[quaint remnant]

so, i always need to enter SD with 6 combo points everytime

[wide shale]

thought so

[red flame]

ik the main thing i have to get better about is using storm + BP
my RL helped me compare my shitty parse to a 95 i think it was & other than bro having correct stats (like 35% haste whereas i have 11% & shitty trinkets) the only notable thing that was really different was me barely using BP on adds (on dragons fight)
apparently thats the main thing that caused me to not get an orange parse or smt from what he was telling me

[solar kestrel]

is the renown trinket simbait?

or is it actually this good

[keen dome]

It's good

[alpine wraith]

it is very good

[rapid estuary]

yeah its just straight up good it has a 50% uptime or better

[red flame]

he said i was smoking the compared parse during CD's & shi it was basically literally just not using storm + bp on adds

which seems insane to me but idk

[solar kestrel]

weird cause i was checking liquid's blood mallet and they sim it very low on every class

[rapid estuary]

well its maxed at 263 so its not competitive long term but its very good at this point in the season

bloodmallet generally looking at BIS trinkets

[solar kestrel]

yea but im comparing it to other same illvl

[red flame]

kinda like how last xpac delve trinkets were bis until you got myth track stuff

[hazy breach]

Their sims are probably done assuming you either A. Dont have all of the upgrades or B. The upgrades dont work in the raid

[cursive tundra]

i don't get the AA optimization... guide says you want to sectech instantly after SD, but then doesn't that consume supercharge + ancient arts? sorry for jumping into the middle of another convo

[hazy breach]

But both of those are true

One of the superchargers yes

[solar kestrel]

this is what their faq says
To fairly assess each trinket's impact, we start with a baseline profile that has no trinkets equipped. From there, we simulate each trinket individually at the most commonly used item levels for the season. This approach isolates their contribution to overall damage output, making the comparisons more meaningful and relevant.

so for champion track its one of the worst

[plush roost]

Its likely an overisght or using data from before it was fixed on rogue sims

Its very good

[solar kestrel]

oh maybe

lastupdate was 18th march

[hazy breach]

Idk im looking at their thing and its good

[solar kestrel]

could be it

[hazy breach]

Not sure what youre talking about

[solar kestrel]

https://liquidarmory.com/trinket-tracker?wowClass=Rogue&wowSpec=Subtlety

[hazy breach]

Yes

[cursive tundra]

so ideally...

1. you stop using finishers just before sectech comes off of cooldown, but build up to max combo points
2. enter shadow dance, instantly sectech
3. shadowstrike until AA procs?
4. use evisc/bp?

what if I have AA procced already when going into SD?

[hazy breach]

Its +5.3k, maxxed out champion gaze is 5.2, , maxed out hero ranger-captain is 5.3k as well etc

[subtle jay]

@hazy breach are we going to get aoe nerfed in 12.0.5. or u didnt check datamined post yet?

[fair stump]

what's valeera's best curios?

[hazy breach]

Those are the nerfs from last week

[subtle jay]

ohh, i see, thx

[hazy breach]

You dont just randomly shadowstrike until AA procs no, you'd only use it if all of the things in the command are true

But most of the time youll just proc it naturally from the few sht you stored by not finishing before

[solemn hawk]

outside of SD at how many targets do we shuriken storm 2+ or 3+?

[cursive tundra]

yeah okay

makes sense

[eager yoke]

is pre using shadow dance before boss pull still giving 2 supercharged CPs? doesnt seem to work

[cursive tundra]

i'm not entirely sure I can actively watch out for it tho

[hazy breach]

#subtlety-faq message

[wooden wagon]

if im running into only having 1 dance in my shadow blades window later into a fight when trying to send a dance + sec tech on cool down, should I be just sending a naked sec tech or is it normal to end up only having one dance? holding both for 20 seconds doesnt feel right

[solar kestrel]

so does the trinket from renown benefit from console upgrades in dungeons and raids?

[wooden wagon]

so ive typically just been sending but running into that issue

[solemn hawk]

just wondering after you finish a pack and ur at max CP, can I open with Secret Technique or I need to shadowstrike to apply weakness anyway?

[solar kestrel]

why would you want to drop st into non weakness enemy

if you have excess cp

just drop them into slice and dice

and then ss into st

[solemn hawk]

hmm ok thx

[maiden bronze]

hey all.. new to Subtlety. Does macroing Shadow Dance and Secret Technique work?

[solar kestrel]

dont

do

it

[rapid estuary]

Why not?

[vale osprey]

Yes

[hazy breach]

Yes, check #subtlety-faq

!guide or these

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[vale osprey]

Just make sure dance is first

[solar kestrel]

are you messing up sb window that way?

i heard from my friend whos otp that second sd in sb should be used before st come back from cd

[quick marlin]

.

[vale osprey]

Literally every question you have will be in the faq or guide because fuu and the other roguelords are amazing

[solar kestrel]

fuu as in fuu1?

[sick jackal]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[west tide]

hey yall

[sullen hare]

[amber radish]

i sim higher when not going for 18% haste. Do i trust the sims?

[fleet acorn]

4set aquired

so with 4set how can i get a 2nd st? in blades

im like 1 sec off 3rd dance

after 2nd dance

all raiding huh?

[hazy breach]

You want the second dance to buff the sectech

Even though a second or so of your dance might fall outside blades

[fleet acorn]

so i press sectech in the blades just not supercharged?

[hazy breach]

No, with supercharge (as second finisher)

Might not be feasible with 250 guidon though, might need more haste for that

[fleet acorn]

yea prob haste issue

im on cap now with 4set 658

buffed

[sleek socket]

how u guys got already 4 set, 1 free 1 1600 rating and 2 from raids?

[fiery fog]

getting funneled smh

[fleet acorn]

1 raidfinder 1 raid and these 2 yea

[sleek socket]

holy, and now u can get from every content?

[fleet acorn]

nothing with funneled everyone can have 2 set alrdy and lucky one has 3

so guild gives 4th

[sleek socket]

i can get set from vault?

and now u can farm more catalyst after u got 4 set, or its weekly cap?

[tribal vortex]

I dont think we know the rate but it is kinda unlimited

[wheat relic]

Guys, is it worth crafting waist?

i guess just 259

[open depot]

ye sure

[fleet acorn]

100% its bis

[wheat relic]

kk

[fair wedge]

how is everyone on wowlogs padding so hard on dragons

ads are dying for me before i can even do sec tech or a nyth

[lucid jackal]

Play in worse groups

With less aoe damage

[hazy breach]

I mean if your goal is to pad theres no way anything dies before you sectech

But yeah guy has a point

[fair wedge]

if i do end up getting it off not rlly getting much value

[warm marlin]

if i did try to sectec them at all the one I chose would die before the clones spawned so my sectec was just wasted

i just hit boss

[tulip light]

im last raiderd before dragonflight or something and back this tier and its insane how ppl still care about logs and padding so much LUL

[fair wedge]

guilds playing with a fury/ww/frost ig padding is for lfg later 😭

[alpine wraith]

actually good groups on dragons have them together

so you have 2t cleave all the time

[wispy flume]

is there a bug where if i have darkest night buff i cant consume mark stacks with black powder or secret tech?

[last marten]

did you guys play any cleave talents for dreamrift ?

[hazy breach]

Thats intended, not a bug

But yes

[coarse hound]

@hazy breach https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4dTuH2uKLYUcqTeuVKQTTn

I should prioritize the hast break point no matter what my sim says?

it seems to be prefering crit on my gear at the moment

I need to be sure to hit 700 haste first correct?

[pastel ginkgo]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hazy breach]

#subtlety-faq message

[coarse hound]

thanks i did not see this update

appreaciate it

[crystal atlas]

is it worth using academy trinket with the cast time

[open depot]

ye

[calm smelt]

Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong vs this guy, in the opener he had one more cast of evis and it did 300k more dmg, any idea what couldve caused that/any other big differences?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/hYGVHXC3JbQytKxB/hCV3Gnc2DryzT9tP?fight=96%2C2&type=damage-done&comparesearchmetric=dps&source=957%2CPhysic&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24damage%240%240.0.0.Any%24202473906.0.0.Rogue%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24196819^0%24Separate%24%23909049%24damage%240%240.0.0.Any%24202473906.0.0.Rogue%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24196819&start=13099117%2C479620&end=13114922%2C495425&view=timeline

[vocal rock]

Is Pawn just completely wrong about stats for us? It’s telling me to use vers gear over mastery

[strong crypt]

Vers is awful

[vocal rock]

So whats even the point of this addon haha

[fleet acorn]

i got 660 haste https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aSqSSECNL5zTV4d1pg1bxN

[vocal rock]

Normally I just use pawn when lvling to quickly see what’s probably better and then sim when I’m end game, but seems like pawn is just completely useless for sub

[lucid jackal]

Pawn has always been kinda shit

It's a bit outdated with how robust modern simming tools are

[fleet acorn]

never use pawn

you can use class codex its pretty good

[vocal rock]

Got it, I guessI didn’t realize it was that bad

Ty

[fleet acorn]

part 1 alleria pretty clean dmg xd

[plush roost]

Pawn is actually objectively based and correct and you got payed by mr raidbot to say that

[twin quartz]

Stat weights are only for insight on single point upgrades, and it’s an approximation at that

But in instances where you have haste breakpoints, stat weights fall apart entirely

[hazy breach]

Stat weights are an approximation of the sim

[valid bluff]

does feint work on alleria's silverstrike arrow dmg if ur targeted?

[hazy breach]

And those are fairly pointless nowadays when you can easily just use the sim to compare the items yourself

As that is always gonna be more accurate

[fleet acorn]

ye if u spec out of cheat death

[mortal skiff]

any idea when we can use wowanalyzer for raidlogs? :)

[twin quartz]

I’m not sure how stat weights are calculated. Does it probe individual stats going up and down, or does it run a decomposition of each stat? I’m not even sure how it would accomplish the latter since the stats interact

[tribal vortex]

he can predict that for the next few points of haste they would give you power equivalent to X ep

[daring gulch]

Is sub hard

[chrome palm]

no

[limber folio]

ww cooked in splits

[vale pine]

3% buff ^^

[fleet acorn]

lets go new top dmg

[sick jackal]

2nd phase orbs come each dance so you can tech all of them

and 1st set of orbs come after each dance

optimal pad dmg

3rd phase i just sent it and got like r2 when we killed it

[shadow lance]

You can hold a bit for adds to pop to press sectech/dance you know?

[open depot]

Sin strong!

[steep siren]

What increases sub shadow dance time

[swift tinsel]

haste

via talent

[steep siren]

wait does that mean 10% is 1.5 seconds?

[hazy breach]

No

10% haste would be 15% longer dance

Aka 6*1.15=6.9

[fleet acorn]

damnn u have many mages

[hazy breach]

(only on haste gained from rating)

[steep siren]

what is base

[open depot]

4 mages

1 is a social tho

[fleet acorn]

ai - anyone knows if theres a addon to remind of "no supercharge" on pull?

[pastel arrow]

Heya, just got puzzle box, i want to know when to use it in opener

like shadowstrike, box, and send it ?

oh yeah didn't think of pins

soz

[fossil crystal]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wnbgYXBJQWayN9Tj?fight=20&type=damage-done

Anyone mind taking a look, i know i did play pretty bad haha, but im learning and wanna know if its any major thing im missing or so 🙂

[fleet acorn]

or is there any option in bcdm to make it highlighted or somehow?

[potent relic]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1484624630764273745/drops.png

[pastel arrow]

got a bug today, on maisara caverns, on the last bridge, my shadowstep tp put me under the bridge and killed me, happened to someone too ?

[south moss]

do we think raidbots is properly simming the crucible trinket? Its telling me that the vessel of tortured souls gives 3.5k more dps than crucible does which seems extreme

[swift tinsel]

it sims high bc it picks up souls perfectly