subtlety

[shrewd lantern]

you're cool

[swift tinsel]

Sprite's christmastime version is my fav

[shrewd lantern]

People who drink buzzballz fight the walmart employees with no shoes on

[keen dome]

Haha

[wraith sphinx]

Patrician's taste

[stuck arrow]

It's possible I just greatly loved soul cap. 😂

That trinket in pvp before they made it not work in players was some of the most fun I had in the game. 😂

I hit 2100 in threes with just me as a pve rogue and two paladins hitting me with bop.

[keen dome]

Soul Capacitor was cool

[shrewd lantern]

it worked before

they introduced the no more guaranteed proc on pull

if it was rng it would have been iffy

you could also castsequence macro the entire opener

[swift tinsel]

proc on pull trinkets from the mop era were so fun

[shrewd lantern]

which was very skill based

/s

[red flame]

That does sound good ; I’ve had blackurrant flavored gummy before & it was awesome

[stuck arrow]

And when you got to pop ring into soul cap, then eat the ring pop into soul cap... Better than sex.

[red flame]

It’s in the Haribo Twin Snakes

[shrewd lantern]

you mean you wiped

because your buyer didnt jump off on xhul

and touched the wrong color

[stuck arrow]

Oh Xhul I didn't get to play the game. Just was on pool duty with Burst of Speed and Feint. 😂

[lilac stag]

Barqs Strawberry goated

[swift tinsel]

Barqs in general goated

most consistent soft drink ever

[lilac stag]

Their zero stuff is amazing

[hollow spear]

No idea what you guys are talking about, I'm European

[woeful rain]

does apex talent tech apply to AoE aswell so we use shuriken storm or is only in ST? 🙂

[swift tinsel]

I usually stick to Dr. Pepper bc they have a few I enjoy but I'll see if they have any of the zero sugar Barqs next time I go

[lilac stag]

A&W zero and Sunkist Zero also really good

[sinful zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/kurisu-makise-makise-kurisu-steins-gate-dr-pepper-based-gif-22100116

[lilac stag]

the flavor profile of a lot of the zeros have improved soooo much the last 4 years (basically post covid plant shutdown)

[sick jackal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[crystal bone]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1476887002019270761/Midnight_s1_fixed.png

[stable plume]

Hey quick question: so I’m looking at the sims and the Deathstalker build is beating out trickster in pure ST. Is Trickster still the better choice when a raid boss has like ANY adds whatsoever?

[vagrant fulcrum]

Nah man, the guy streams a lot of testing, is it litterally one guy testing and then making conclusions? - yes but let’s not pretend it’s a five minute job. Honestly I have no stake in petko personally - Everyone becomes an armchair critic when someone else is actually putting themselves out there.

[lucid jackal]

The boring answer is its gonna depend

IF rogues job in the raid is to "just hit the boss" and not pretend its helping by cleaving small amounts of damage onto adds that need to be priority targeted by a big CD that another class might provide, u will play deathstlaker still

[vagrant fulcrum]

I say that because outlaw has had restless blades far longer than sub had cdr on dance + thematically having cdr on a super burst spec seems off to me, idk about others

Clearly an armchair critic - produce something better then talk

[hazy breach]

Yeah if the adds actually need to die quickly, you probably want to play trickster.
If you dont really care about the adds and theyll just die passively anyway you probably want to play deathstalker

And its really hard to know what kind of adds bosses have before playing them

Since its very tuning reliant

[lucid jackal]

It also depends how broken other specs are

[stuck arrow]

Yeah but since cdr affects all outlaw CDs you can just normalize it so that all CDs just have lower timer without really fundamentally changing OL as a spec and how your rotation works or things line up.

Taking dance cdr from sub more fundamentally shifted things removed the complexity it lining up CD windows.

[hazy breach]

Yeah ofc i was just talking from a sub perspective

[lucid jackal]

Its the same way that like, sub soloing platforms on dimensius changed how other specs play

[lucid jackal]

Well yes but I'm saying how broken other specs will influence what sub does in the riad

[hazy breach]

Ye

[lucid jackal]

Boring answer is legit wait until next tuesday

To actually know waht to do

Like what rogues actual role in the raid is

[spiral needle]

pad on adds, your raid leader isn't the boss of you

[onyx flame]

Why would i produce bullshit? Still, you miss the point entirely

[lucid jackal]

Tier lists are just 4fun content

the only stupid people are the ones taking them seriously

Almost as stupid as taking the "st patchwork" sims seriously

[vagrant fulcrum]

Not even just that, literally he does it to earn a living

[stuck arrow]

Unfortunately - we're all more stupid than we think. Unlucky.

[lucid jackal]

except for me of course

[onyx flame]

Tierlists are mindless clickbait, most of them are objectively wrong because of fear for nerfs

[vagrant fulcrum]

My entire point is I’m tired of armchair criticism, backseat driving etc

Since if we’re being honest making tier lists remotely accurate is stupidly hard

And IV is paying this guy for it, so there’s clearly some value? For generating traffic for that site atleast

[onyx flame]

Whats the point then?

[lucid jackal]

The point is that it entertains people

[vagrant fulcrum]

My point is the same as people shitting on TCs or anyone else who actually produces something without having any skin in the game

[stuck arrow]

Other problem is that it's different depending on the players and the content.

Some specs much better in M0 than +30. Some specs perform much better when piloted by bad players. Etc.

[hazy breach]

Yeah except me, im even stupider

[keen dome]

We should theorycraft to find who the stupidest is (me)

[vale pine]

💸

[onyx flame]

If think it makes go people crazy over specs then entertaining or helping them it’s worse than fomo

[fathom adder]

do you use the dance+ sectec macro in every situation or do you have it + a normal dance without anything (if there is any use for it)

[hollow spear]

I'm not sure defending people putting out questionable content (not all tier lists are, but most) by saying they're making a living off it is it. Maybe I misunderstood the point though.

[onyx flame]

I don‘t ever do pugs but i guess tierlists make them even worse if you don‘t play the classes someone put in S tier

[hollow spear]

There's a lot of things out there that earn someone money that are complete garbage.

[stuck arrow]

Part of me really misses when games weren't solved and no one knew what anything was instead of just having guides for everything.

But part of me really likes optimizing and mathing.

And also - being around then - it was still just as bad with tier lists but you had people from like EJ giving objectively the wrong advice that was taken as gospel. Which... Seeing classic come out and having a lot of that stuff just straight up proven false with modern theory crafting kind of brought me a lot of joy.

[vagrant fulcrum]

You have misunderstood it, the point is about throwing shade on people trying to do something - without offering any kind of constructive criticism or alternative

[keen dome]

Tierlists and pugs have an awkward relationship but I would honestly imagine it's about the same as group play. People will put too much value in them and others ignore them entirely.

In my experience, stuff like the RWF / MDI has WAY more impact on pugging than tierlists ever will.

[vagrant fulcrum]

It’s a general rant, not specifically at Miho or about petko

I know I was guilty of the same thing too

[stuck arrow]

It was that bad before tier lists really existed. Hunter/rogue/mage got into ever group just because sap/trap/sheep mage the game easy.

[paper panther]

Can i get away with using ST build in dungeons and use my single target rotation as trickster?

[onyx flame]

Thats tierlists make the game and pugging situation worse is constructive critizizm in my eyes

[keen dome]

They don't make pugging worse, though.

[vagrant fulcrum]

The pugging is moreso Rio/ meta mimicry. How do they make the game worse, I’m listening in good faith

[stuck arrow]

You can. But it's not at all optimal compared to potent powder. Like quite bad on meters.

[keen dome]

They don't make it better, but I really don't think they have enough of an impact to matter anymore than it does in organized play with your typical fotm rerollers.

[hazy breach]

You would do very little aoe damage, but fwiw the aoe rotation and the single target rotation is exceptionally minor

[onyx flame]

I think your chances for invites as an S tier spec are way higher than an C tier spec

[hazy breach]

You press storm instead of backstab/strike and you press BP instead of eviscerate

[keen dome]

Ask most people in groups what the S-tier spec is and they probably won't have a good answer. You are projecting far more onto most people pugging than exists.

Like Mo said, pugging is way more Rio / Meta mimicing. It's built off actual substance rather than tierlist speculation.

[tribal vortex]

I don't agree, people are going crazy over tierlists

[onyx flame]

Well i guess it depends on the level you play, but low keys are a disaster because casuals take tierlists as their holy grail

[vagrant fulcrum]

This again isn’t tier list’s fault - it’s the playerbase being mentally constrained into this hole of “if I don’t have full meta comp I can’t time this key” that they can

[hollow spear]

I think that's generally a point that a lot of people online/in forums underestimate. We, Youtube, reddit etc are a loud minority.

[keen dome]

They really, really don't.

[tribal vortex]

I am pugging the whole season and everyone is like oh no you are assa instead of sub

[spiral needle]

people greatly overestimate how much pugs care or even know about a wowhead tier list

they just wanna know your io and brez/lust

[keen dome]

How many times have people gone, in a group "Oh no, you are Ass instead of Sub".

[onyx flame]

They do

[tribal vortex]

This is a weird take. So if I am exploiting people that are stupid am I innocent ?

[hollow spear]

I think tier lists are still low effort content most of the time

[stuck arrow]

Yeah if you here - you're much more tuned in than most people.

[tribal vortex]

I pugged to 3.6

Believe me many times

[keen dome]

How many times did they say it.

[vagrant fulcrum]

Clarify your point, I’m not sure I understand

[keen dome]

And what does that have to do with a tier list. If you pugged to 3.6k, that's far past the point a tier list matters and the point where substantive data exists.

[hollow spear]

Tier lists are the fast food of our bubble, so to speak

[tribal vortex]

Peetko (and every Peetko) are creating tier lists to make money but this is making the community a worse place to be in. Partly it is their fault too

[onyx flame]

Yes but it gets more over the years and more and more players take them way too serious

[tribal vortex]

It has happened to me that I apply as assa and then as sub in the same group and I was invited

[vagrant fulcrum]

Okay hold, you’re making a logical jump here - you’re blaming meta emulation on tier lists, I’m not sure that holds

[keen dome]

And you clarified that this was the reason they invited you or just assumed? But also: what does this have to do with tier lists? If you are at that point of pushing to 3.6k we have substantive data and not just speculative.

Tier lists are wholly speculative.

[hollow spear]

I think tier lists are one part of the whole meta problem, but they're certainly not as big of a problem as some here think they are

[lucid jackal]

I mean it's not just petko lol

Its the entire modern internet

Literally every new video game that comes out "HERES A TIERLIST"

[tribal vortex]

Youtube shorts is the most famous way of content watching (along with tiktok) and youtube shorts are full of tier lists and affects people

[lucid jackal]

Like its fun to say fuck x person fuck y person but like

[onyx flame]

Ehm, most tierlists are made for +15s and up, how is 3.6 far beyond?

[lucid jackal]

People enjoy watching tier lists, no matter how dumb of a concept they are, broadly speaking

[hollow spear]

Tier lists are entertaining

[tribal vortex]

Ofc I assumed but it seems like it no ? Cause assa was B or something and sub was A

[vagrant fulcrum]

That’s just people having no grasp of reality, any kind of critical thinking - I do want to preface a lot of these tier list type content do have disclaimers that they are speculative.

[hollow spear]

They're just not providing much value

[tribal vortex]

And also it has happened more than 10 times to be asked why I am assa

[lucid jackal]

new D4 season? tier list
New slay the spire 2 video game? Tier list
Mewgenics? cat tier list
Wow season? Dungeon tier list
Wow expansion? Tier list

[stuck arrow]

Meta evolves with or without tier lists, TBH.

I'd also argue that often a tier list is not really in sync with how well things actually perform.

Look at something like LoL - champs like Nidalee are S tier for years while maintaining the worst win rates even in competitive high elo environments.

[keen dome]

So you had no idea, basically. Could've been many reasons lol

Also, my point is that tier lists are specutlvie "X class is S rank!" whereas by the time you are actually pushing, you've got substantive data via rio, meta formation, experience, etc. Which is what most people will base their view on. Not a tier list.

[hazy breach]

Ive seen a tierlist tierlist video where he lists different tiers

[tribal vortex]

It doesn't matter, people are stupid. And saying no people dont care about tierlists is ultra-naive

[vale pine]

tier lists are just the lazy information approach

[keen dome]

Most people don't care about tier lists.

[vale pine]

accuracy is most of the time irrlevant

[tribal vortex]

If you go to a random AotC guild it is the only thing they are talking about

[vagrant fulcrum]

I’d say mid- season tier lists can be an accurate thing, these ones that come before content though that people FIEND for are speculation and we know blizzard will tune

[vale pine]

its just, people assume "high" accuracy because

[keen dome]

It absolutely isn't lmao

[vagrant fulcrum]

Jesus

[vale pine]

x is a good player

or sth

gaming communities are sometimes weird in that reguard

[onyx flame]

Yeah but that‘s the reality we live in. I have alot of wow friends that bother me daily with tierlists and how they will swap their mains to an S tier spec they will play so bad that most long term mains of „bad specs“ outperform them.
It is exhausting.

[brazen spire]

Does anyone know if the hunt wep embelishment stacks, like if I have my 259 spark craft with it on and I want to craft an vetdagger can I also put hunt on it?

[tribal vortex]

Been there done that. And I see the whole greek community where they are like rtwl and saying that the issue is the warlock is affli instead of destro

like people are stupid, this is a fact

[burnt loom]

i mean a tier list gives you the pulse, if they put assa dead last and outlaw on top, it's probably not coz someone has a grudge on assa

[tribal vortex]

and by creating more tier lists they help on this

It is exactly the same with whispyr tagging ulria yesterday

[stuck arrow]

I mean I literally gave an exact example of this not being true. Often there's things that statistically are better than what the tier lists say are good by several standard deviations. 😂

[hard trellis]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[tribal vortex]

I mean don't you see people everyday here coming in and saying are we dooming , etc? Espeically in assa now that is the worst out of the 3

[vagrant fulcrum]

Sorry to hear that, I always just say play what is fun / cool to you. The people who actually need to meta game will not get their Information from a tier list ironically enough

[swift tinsel]

they say that literally all day every day

in every spec discord

everyone is bottom tier need buffs full rework save us blizz

[onyx flame]

Yes but alot of casuals think that because they see 20 tierlists thrown in their yt algorythm daily.

[keen dome]

If a player is making their decision to reroll based on random speculative tier lists then they're probably not very good at the game, nor have a good grasp of the theory. I don't think that's the tier list itself - it's the player just not really being willing to think or learn.

[swift tinsel]

also that idea about aotc guilds obsessing over tier lists is not true

as someone in a mostly aotc guild

[tribal vortex]

I don't disagree with you but everyone does his part to make this world better. This is my view. If I do something that creates issues (even if I do it for money) maybe I should think twice before doing it. Like peetko did 1 every day it is insane

[stuck arrow]

Depends on the guild. Some guilds bad for that kind of thing, to be fair.

[keen dome]

The only people who seem to fixate on tier lists are the hard stuck weirdos who can't play the game and need to find an excuse for it.

This exists at all levels of play, too. Casual to hardcore.

[swift tinsel]

^

[hazy breach]

Bring out the bell curve meme

[keen dome]

🙏

Someone has it, I'm sure

[swift tinsel]

forgot I saved it on my phone lol

[keen dome]

If it wasn't a tier list, they'd find something else to fixate on. It's an excuse, a rational for why they are personally struggling because they aren't willing to have introspective analysis.

[gloomy loom]

!spreadsheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen dome]

It's behaviour you find everywhere, too.

[tribal vortex]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you

[onyx flame]

I mean to a point it is the tierlists fault because almost all wow content creators do them now and bad players who follow them think its a must and don‘t listen to the „it‘s speculative“ or „just play what you like“ mentioned at the end

[tribal vortex]

on a meta-level

[spiral needle]

a lot of it is no one wants to accidently invest time in a weak class and stress about not getting invited to anything

[keen dome]

If it wasn't tier lists, it would be something else.

[stuck arrow]

All I know is that anytime I'm stuck in floor pov, it's blizzards fault.

[onyx flame]

Surely

[keen dome]

So fixating on the tier list is missing the forest for the trees, imo.

[swift tinsel]

the wow content creator space is full of SO many really bad ones

[onyx flame]

It is by far the biggest tree rn

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

someone came in the other day asking about priority ability lists bc a youtube video told them naked evisc was important in aoe

[keen dome]

Sure, until the MDI happens. Then it'll be the MDI.

[tribal vortex]

At least MDI has a basis

[keen dome]

And the RWF, then everyone in pugs will stack the stuff people brought to the RWF.

[tribal vortex]

now it is pure speculation

[onyx flame]

Not for casuals tbh

[keen dome]

People doing candle king skips in a +8 because that's how you do it.

[tribal vortex]

Ofc it is not the same but it is something that worked

[onyx flame]

Oh god yes

[tribal vortex]

Tierlists are just random speculations

[swift tinsel]

rememeber when mdi s1 df had feral blasting and people still memed on it as a spec

[keen dome]

So much of WoW is people doing something because 'that's how you do it' be it class decision, routes, tactics. Good players learn the why you do something.

My fav example of this is the MDI Underrot pull where you pull everything before the first boss and nuke it down. It's a really fucking hard pull to do and not something you'd ever do outside super high key pushing right?

[swift tinsel]

have had so many pug experiences like this

[keen dome]

So naturally people in a +6 think they should do it and they immediately brick the key

[onyx flame]

I found a video on yt that explained how to get to the prey npc FIVE SECONDS faster

[keen dome]

Because they never learned the why you do it.

[keen dome]

lmao, that stuff is so funny

[fervent spade]

really its the social push of meta gaming, but that's just a result of modern gaming, just play/vibe with what ya want

[keen dome]

Yeah, 100%. It's absolutely social

[stuck arrow]

Actively a lot of the time playing mdi strats is actively bad for most players. 😂

[swift tinsel]

can't really understate how helpful it is to be in a guild with similar goals

makes grouping considerably easier

[stuck arrow]

But this kind of thing will always happen. It's human nature, not tier lists or whatever.

[onyx flame]

Thats even WAY worse than tierlists „DO THIS NOW“ „DONT MISS THIS“ „DONT MAKE THIS MISTAKE“
God this bullshit is so exhausting.

[keen dome]

For context I pug lead a lot of heroic raids in WoW and the stuff I see people doing is absurd. The amount of people thinking they're hot shit trying to imitate top players and they don't have the most basic understanding of the why people do it.

[swift tinsel]

or joining an lfg discord/subreddit

[keen dome]

oh my fucking god yeah. "Do this NOW or you will BREAk your RAID SEASON" and it's the most basic things.

[swift tinsel]

the fucking youtube algorithm has done so much damage to wow

[west tide]

ill never know why just when daddy fuu says its a gain ill DO IT

[keen dome]

I've had people argue with me that "They do it this way in the RWF" and I'm like buddy we're doing heroic we aren't copying Mythic raid strats.

[fervent spade]

engagement algos in general across all sectors, gaming is just one of those affected, but that conversation is a different beast all together.

[onyx flame]

But do you know how to get to the prey npc 5sec faster?

[swift tinsel]

yeah the fight for anyone not in RWF is considerably different that the fight most people will ever see lol

[keen dome]

i push sprint

[hazy breach]

I do not need to do preys on 20 different characters so i do not care

[keen dome]

I wish WoW players would spend more time learning the why of something instead of just the how because it'd save so much time.

Why we do a boss this way, why we do a dungeon pull this way.

[fervent spade]

I'm just looking forward to the mythic raid guilds that relied heavily on WA's to do fights that Liquid or Echo pushed out, do it without WA's telling them how to do the dance

[swift tinsel]

have tried to have this conversation for raid strats more times than I can count

[fiery fog]

what will be our second craft after dagger?

[onyx flame]

I dont even even to know how many people just blindly copy specs without even reading one ability in their tree

[brisk reef]

tbh nothing matters at the moment, tierlists, meta, gear

[keen dome]

So many, it's wild.

[brisk reef]

all that matters is to have rogue and shaman tank

i said it

[swift tinsel]

100% why I don't copy import strings usually on alts, I like to actually skill them point by point to see what I'm using

[brisk reef]

dh can do it, i wanna do it 2

[hazy breach]

Theyll release similar addons anyway

[fervent spade]

I'd get behind a rogue/sham tank or even a cloth tank similar to how they attempted with lock in SOD

[swift tinsel]

also why I miss WA, making custom auras with conditions helped me learn specs really in-depth

[fervent spade]

flips side of said coin is people were just following WA without trying to understand why it does it

[brisk reef]

imagine u dodge tank and not face tank like most tanks

[lunar bluff]

What if I worry about outlaw sim dps but then blast @keen dome

[keen dome]

That's good

[swift tinsel]

that's a different coin

[dense geode]

How long do we want dance duration to be

[keen dome]

I think the fixation on the min/max is also another of the how / why issues. So many people spend.. hang on I have an image for this one

[hazy breach]

~7.2 + 0.2s extra for trickster

[swift tinsel]

personally, 6.2 sec max

[hazy breach]

Which is roughly 650-700 haste

[fervent spade]

Same weakaura that lets you track to understand a ability or give you insight; can be used by someone else without understanding said ability and just reacting to the wa; same coin, different side.

[swift tinsel]

me creating them for me doesn't affect someone else's lack of understanding

[keen dome]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486284970806083584/1477900048468676649/image.png?ex=69b98eed&is=69b83d6d&hm=6c75ac022d8d0025987b1624c8384ef04bd697bff35d14b3289a8b173522223e&

This is so incredibly true.

[brisk reef]

i mean this might sound shallow but most of the rotations and prios can be found/asked in class discords/wowhead/icy veins

so tbh weak auras are worth as much as u are a visual learner

[fervent spade]

sure but the capability of it existing, means it can be shared, and used blindly simply reacting to it.

[keen dome]

Spelling out Ovi'nax in crystal clear ways. We're 2/3rds through the season. On the first egg wave, someone playing a meta reroll class gets the egg buff and runs to the wrong slice, spawns a worm in the far corner, and wipes us.

[swift tinsel]

we're having a discord meeting tonight to watch fight videos, never told us we have to have them unmuted

[keen dome]

i can link you my raid doc if you want to just read through the fights

[swift tinsel]

that's beyond the scope of the points I've been making

[swift tinsel]

all good, thank you though! our RL has very specific sites/plans he pulls from

[keen dome]

Awesome

I love it when a RL puts together their own sauce

[swift tinsel]

its nice from a preparedness standpoint but sometimes it leads to inflexibility

since our raider capability is pretty variable

theres a few people where if you see a raid marker appear over their head to pop an extra defensive lol

[dense geode]

am i sending 2m trinkets on every other CDs

[silk fiber]

Id rather learn how to get out of that dungeon ish area he has faster if anything lmao

[swift tinsel]

there's two exits that are pretty close to the main room

[onyx flame]

Green door

[swift tinsel]

one leads to the inn, the other to the street

[silk fiber]

Yes both require a 15 second run

[bleak night]

Why would you want to escape astalors sex dungeon

[keen dome]

hearthstone out

[silk fiber]

I've timed them because its annoying

[swift tinsel]

human racial BIS

[keen dome]

Haptics gets it

[silk fiber]

You can teleport in with the big glory crystal, where is my second one like they had between silvermoon and undercity

[onyx flame]

With bloodlust

[keen dome]

Going to go make a youtube video with a tierlist of the quickest class / race combo to get out of Astalor's hub room.

Human rogue is S-rank

[hollow spear]

I will go through the last hour of discussion and make a tier list of how good or bad your takes were

[onyx flame]

Please do!

[rain stratus]

Do you need lust on top of the 700ish haste, do get 2 sectecs in your blades?

[hazy breach]

And the tierset yes

[rain stratus]

Ahh

[onyx flame]

You need lust for the prey hearthstone

Dont waste it on dmg

[hazy breach]

The haste is mostly for longer dance duration

Since we dont really care much about the combo points (we actually end up overcapping quite a lot of our sht stacks with the bis profile)

[dense geode]

does the haste matter outside of blades

[hazy breach]

Not really

[dense geode]

like do we rly care about the haste with normal dance

So then wouldnt it just be ideal to so fk the haste and get that trinket

[hazy breach]

Nah

Oh you said blades at the top

Regular dances also benefit from it, getting longer dances is good

Since we do very little outside of it

[zenith mirage]

+sht stacks are way more reliable with more haste

[hazy breach]

The trinket just gets us 1 additional global in dance

[zenith mirage]

=more aa

[hazy breach]

Up to a point yes

[dense geode]

u tellin me that 1 additiona global is worth to get that trinket

😭

[hazy breach]

Well the trinket is from the first boss

[stuck arrow]

Eh, in dance you're drowning in sht procs. Outside of dance kinda meh. No?

[hazy breach]

Yep

The sim with bis profile overcaps about 15% of its sht stacks

(almost all of that is during BL)

[shell relic]

To craft the dagger, what stats should I put in crit/mast or cel/mast?

[hazy breach]

Probably haste/mastery, but it doesnt really matter

[shell relic]

okey u crafted?

[stuck arrow]

Will recraft soon, do a top gear and take whatever it recommends.

[shell relic]

simulatio said me cel/mast i will do that

[ember panther]

quick question guys should i craft with spark this week and veteran crests =

[vale pine]

haste mastery and crit mastery both is fine

[vale pine]

i crafted too, dagger is a low risk craft

[brisk reef]

tbh, craft what u miss

if u got a shit ton of mastery but like les than 10% haste get some haste

[shell relic]

so Farstrider's Mercy with hunt and stat Cel/mast or crit/mast no?

[vale pine]

if you want to craft now ye

haste/mastery

or crit/mastery

ye

[shell relic]

nice thanks fuu<3

[lilac stag]

crit haste if you are planning to dabble in OL

[vale pine]

but you can always wait with your craft

[shell relic]

wait to what?

[vale pine]

see how specs perform in raid

[shell relic]

ooo i know

[stuck arrow]

Get a better stat spread, be able to pivot to OL, etc.

But it's not terrible to just craft now.

[lethal pasture]

worst case you play outlaw with dagger offhand 😄 sounds great

[fiery fog]

just say you wont play outlaw gg ez

[olive canyon]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[shell relic]

But crafting a dagger is low risk compared to waiting for what spec be played.

[olive canyon]

that Aa thing seems to keep changing. Which is expected i suppose so early. Now we only force the AA proc if we have supercharged or darkest night - but not outside of that condition during dance

[stuck arrow]

Well no it's high risk compared to that. But like you're talking about missing like 0.5% DPS and stat priority is similar - so it's much less risk compared to other classes.

[vale pine]

yes, we had some changes in the condition

[brisk reef]

btw, who updates the wowhead guide ,i was checking the daggers and holy shit there are better daggers this season than the one from raid

[shell relic]

true

[vale pine]

i do

[lilac stag]

Are you looking at the page that only sources raid drops?

[vale pine]

if you find any mistake, let me know

[steel zinc]

Now also outside bl AA optimization?

[vale pine]

yes

it changed

[brisk reef]

i am trying to find the one that does not show only raid ones and can't seem to find it

[steel zinc]

3 targets?

[brisk reef]

idk what changed to wowhead

[steel zinc]

Or just st?

[hazy breach]

It genuinely doesnt matter what dagger you have

Just get the highest ilvl

[steel zinc]

What if I don't have supercharged combo points?

[lilac stag]

All targets

[vale pine]

skyreach

[steel zinc]

Really? So

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[hollow compass]

yall thinking trickster for every boss except vorasius? and maybe beloren?

[vale pine]

but as eleem mentioned, weapon item level is important

stats are secondary

[brisk reef]

it does not open like that for me

[vale pine]

thats because its a diffrent page

which iirc hasn't been released

[brisk reef]

oh

[vale pine]

but should be soon™

[brisk reef]

i mean yeah, skyreach , pit of saron

[buoyant iron]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hollow compass]

also, heart of wind just bis for passive trinket til i get umbral plume or alnseer?

[brisk reef]

@vale pine do we also work with claws in off hand or just daggers?

[hazy breach]

Just dagger

[hazy breach]

Probably not, just get something thats higher ilvl from m+

[brisk reef]

i mean i know swords is a nono cause speed, but claws should be faster

[hazy breach]

Claws are not faster

[lilac stag]

They are not

[brisk reef]

was i wrong all my life?

[vale pine]

just dagger, you need the fast attack speed to proc sht

[hollow compass]

i meant farming out a heroic one is bis

[brisk reef]

ok, i was today yers old when i found out claws are slow

and 2 , pit of saron dagger seems ok

[hazy breach]

its not a great trinket, probably better of getting prism or the silly banner thing

[quick burrow]

How important is this “shadow strike while at full cp” optimization? Just watched shindig’s video and he said it’s only a gain during lust? Is that still accurate?

[vale pine]

he had bad timing with the video, we found more optimizations around it

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[vale pine]

it is worth outside of bloodlust too now

[quick burrow]

So all of these conditions need to be met for it to be a gain?

[hazy breach]

It sounds like a lot

But its just

Make sure you big finishers get buffed by the big finisher buff

[brisk reef]

how much is the gain in st between DS and Trickster now ?

[hazy breach]

For trickster it should be happening automatically, without needing a double strike, and most of the time it should be for deathstalker too

[nocturne tendon]

do we care about proccing apex during lust as well

outside of the new supercharged thing

[quick burrow]

Ancient arts being “up” is when we have the black bars actively on screen right?

[hazy breach]

Yes

You could track it in your buff bar too if you prefer

[hollow compass]

thats why i said passive trinket

[quick burrow]

Nah I wish I could make more effects like the black bars tbh. I wanted to make one for shadow dance but you can’t do anything fun with the new ui

[light elbow]

how much of a gain is the apex opti in % approx

[hazy breach]

?

[hollow compass]

the banner is on use

[hazy breach]

The trinkets i mentioned are passives

[stuck arrow]

How good is the raid neck piece? Big DPS or not really?

[quick burrow]

Is it a substantial gain? Like if I fuck it up is it gonna be a huge difference?

[stuck arrow]

The shadow damage proc one

[cinder marten]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Again, it sounds way more complicated than it is in practice. But its like 1% for trickster and 3% for deathstalker

[stuck arrow]

It's like 10 minutes of hitting a target dummy and it feels natural, TBH.

[quick burrow]

Heard, ty. Im hearing you say it’s not that complicated, I am confident I WILL fuck it up tho

[left ledge]

listen, if your sht is high just go for it

if you're at like 4 and wondering if you will proc to 5 by the time your gcd is up

just finish

[stuck arrow]

Make a ShT tracker.

[olive canyon]

during bl do we always use it - regardless of darkest night or supercharged

[hazy breach]

No

Then it wouldve been mentioned

[olive canyon]

ok so still with those conditions then, ty

[vale pine]

you just follow the new ruleset

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[vale pine]

it sounds more complicated than it is

[olive canyon]

its simple to do, its just keeping up with changes and the the fomo of missing something

rather ask than not be sure

[rain stratus]

@vale pine On DS rotation page in your guide, the sample timeline and the opener sequence differs. One says SS > Evis > CD's > SS > SecTech - Other one says SS > pop all. Which one is the correct to use?

[crystal bone]

what is the % gain for that AA optimization?

[hazy breach]

Scroll up a bit

[stuck arrow]

1% for trickster, 3.5% for DS.

[quick burrow]

In shindig’s footage giving the example of when to ss, it seemed like he was basically just alternating ss and eviscerate. Is that all there is to it?

[crystal bone]

ahh ok

[stuck arrow]

Yes but no. It's exactly what the !aa thing shows.

If you have ability to proc aa, strike - if not, eviscerate.

Or if you have a supercharger charge.

[vale pine]

give me a sec to check, you want to ss-pop-evi

[rain stratus]

None of them says that tho XD

Maybe I'm just dumb

[vale pine]

moment

the timeline is correct

i had to open the guide

so you strike-evis-cooldowns

while on trickster you strike-cooldowns

[quick burrow]

Is ability to proc aa when the bars are up on the screen or right after you expend that buff and it gives you back full cp? I feel like my brain is melting for no reason

[olive canyon]

for DS, wouldnt you just use the dance macro with shuriken?

in that opener timeline

strike>evis>pop all/Dance+shuri

[vale pine]

now let me check why its not showing correct ^^

[stuck arrow]

No before the bars come up - if you have 5+ ShT stacks and use strike you'll get AA free finisher proc + extra damage.

[swift tinsel]

bars mean your next finisher will proc clone attack

and proc refund

[stuck arrow]

You're looking for conditions that will proc the bars to strike. Not the bars.

[obtuse kettle]

Hello guys, i'm hesitating so much for wednesday , will you play sub for the raid or Outlaw ?

[rain stratus]

@vale pine Do you always go into dances with low CP on DS? Or just in the opener?

[swift tinsel]

sub all day babyyyy

but play what you like

[weak frost]

@vale pine do you do that spreadsheet with sims this season?

[vale pine]

yes

[swift tinsel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[weak frost]

thank youuuu

[vale pine]

i do, i will do a revision on it once the raid is out

[rain stratus]

Yes do the first part? XD

[obtuse kettle]

But a lot of bosses are multi target tho no ?

[vale pine]

you always start dance on low combo points on deathstalker

[vale pine]

it does not matter much once you have more targets

but you would likely switch to trickster with more targets

[olive canyon]

why is that

[willow pawn]

@vale pine the optimization in aoe, is it still Shadowstrike? or Storm

[lilac stag]

You’re not dealing with coup 1.2 gcd and dance+storm is good with DS

[olive canyon]

fair, would it then not be optimal in the DS opener to use the macro with dance+shuri instead of strike after you pop everything

[vale pine]

or you talk about trickster, then yes

[lilac stag]

You’re supposed to dance + storm

[vale pine]

for deathstalker, you want to use storm macro

with dance

[quick burrow]

Thank you, this was exactly my confusion

[quick burrow]

So if bars are NOT up, I have more than 5 ST stacks, and I’m in dance, I’m always shadow striking (in single target), no matter how many cp I have. As soon as the bars DO show up, I always finisher, correct?

[ember hound]

Fuu, the sim was sending dances using the sec tech macro a lot instead of the ss+dance. What do you think is happening? It looks like it was trying to make sure it lined up and supercharged the dn + apex

[stuck arrow]

If you don't have full CP, you're always striking. If you have full CP - you're using finisher UNLESS pressing strike procs bars or you've got a supercharged combo point to spend.

[ember hound]

Actually looking at it again, it sends the ss+dance right at the end of the sim since it knew combat was going to end and didn’t have sec tech up in time.

[rain stratus]

Maybe I read it wrong, but you only do it if you have a supercharged CP, and can proc AA with your next SS right? Given you have 5+ ST stacks

In dance that is

[mint bobcat]

I see the WoWhead guide say try to go into your shadow dance as Deathstalker with low CP so you can shadow strike first without wasting them, but if you just macro your finisher into shadowdance and instantly use it I don't understand why you still wouldn't go into shadow dance with max combo points. What am I missing? Is it just just not wanting to wait the global CD to get your shadowstrike/Deathstalkers mark going?

[vale pine]

trickster sends dance with high cp, so the dance + secret macro is how the sim plays more or less

[ember hound]

Ah I see that makes sense

[vale pine]

deathstalker is starting with low cp, which is slightly better on st from the looks of it

the raid is hard to predict, so we might play deathstalker on a few encounetrs

[mint bobcat]

I see that but don't understand the reasoning behind it. I'm sure it's correct just want to understand the thought process.

[weak frost]

is it worth to greed a supercharged+ancient arts darkest night?

(finishing twice before sending shadow blades on opener)

[scarlet saddle]

was there any good answer for the usage of haste trinket and SD? Because if i push like 2 buttons but with like no delay(maybe 0,2 sec delay), my SD still dont get buffed

[hazy breach]

Use them slower ig

And/or complain on the forums

0.2-0.25 is usually enough

[steady sphinx]

question is it worth crafting daggers already or should i wait?

[vale pine]

both is fine

[stuck arrow]

It's feasible to craft. Slightly riskier than not crafting. Not a huge risk for rogue compared to other classes.

[pulsar prawn]

I'm sure it's been answered a thousand times but is AA worth doing on aoe/m+?

[white tapir]

For the raid, are we looking at using mostly sub, mostly assasination, or a healthy mix of both?

[mint bobcat]

For Trickster is it still worth shadowstriking while in shadow dance even while at max combo points to abuse ancient arts?

[vale pine]

yes, the new one is worth doing, assuming you play trickster (which you likely do)

[hazy breach]

Hard to tell

[tulip light]

is the 85 secondary stat enchant (wep) not in raidbots anymore or am i tripping?

[gusty depot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mossy spear]

ayije cdm so clean

[pulsar prawn]

ty ty just making sure, would it be shuriken storm to overcap then in an aoe situation instead of shadowstrike?

[hazy breach]

Either, it doesnt really matter

Would recommend strike because its more priority damage

[tame stratus]

@vale pine do you already have the all gear raid bots import for the season, the pin in #tc-research is still prepatch gear

[hazy breach]

Most of the value in using storm over strike is the extra combo points, which obviously does not matter if you are at full cp

[lethal pasture]

do vers gems sim best for you guys too?

[tall dawn]

Sorry if this is already answered: do we avoid having to track escalating blade in AOE scenarios by just macro'ing it with black powder?

[vale pine]

Ill post it tomorrow

[tame stratus]

ok ty

[vale pine]

i have a list but its not well structured

[hazy breach]

You can do that if you want to. In a dummy scenario that is good

[hollow forum]

Guys new doc just droped D:

we climbing

[stable plume]

Uh what doc

[vale pine]

snoop doc?

[hollow forum]

the sim doc xd

[stable plume]

Can’t just say that n not link something

[tall dawn]

I see it in the macros list. Are there scenarios where we don't want to use?

[vale pine]

i mean

[hollow forum]

for the memes

[hazy breach]

Well if you have 2 mobs with 5% hp right before a big pull

[vale pine]

most fights have cleave damage

[hazy breach]

You'd rather keep the coup for the big pull

[vale pine]

any single target comparison is kinda wahtever

[hazy breach]

Than use it on the smallies

[tall dawn]

Gotcha - OK this makes sense.

thanks!

[hollow forum]

Tru tru

[vale pine]

also these sims are with good gear

people will run without tier into the raid

and with low gear levels

[plush roost]

New ragebait sheet dropped lock in

[jaunty heath]

ferals pog

[spice matrix]

can't wait for the 14% dps boost from tier

[vale pine]

https://giphy.com/gifs/super-hero-superhero-KAq7hfwvKFZnoip8TO

^ we after getting tier set

[sullen hare]

"surely subtlety will pick deathstalker now that it's numerically better in one specific use case!" -blizzard

https://tenor.com/view/donald-trump-wrong-not-right-gif-14695153867752834726

-rogue discord

[mint bobcat]

The idea of the mark disappearing in multi phase fights already got me like naa

[vale pine]

ye, need to be careful on some fights

[swift tinsel]

is it season 1 seasonal dungeons with daily m0 lockout and champ track gear tomorrow or does that come with m+ release?

[hazy breach]

Should be tomorrow

But who knows

[swift tinsel]

ty king

[spiral needle]

atleast it's fairly easy to reapply for sub

[swift tinsel]

trying to find a reference for blizz' schedule

[spiral needle]

losing it as sin pre-midnight was troll

[hazy breach]

It was in the war within yeah

But now you cant unless the target which you have it on is dead

[spiral needle]

oh lord i hope that is a bug or unintended

just make it move

[hazy breach]

They purposefully changed it to work like that

[sullen hare]

it was an intentional change that led to a very hilarious bug where it can just fall down the well and never be appliable until relog

[spiral needle]

what was the point of making it like that instead of it just moving around like caustic splatter can

[sullen hare]

friction my boy

[spiral needle]

ah yes "flavor"

[sullen hare]

rogues aren't allowed to have a good change without taking something away

[hazy breach]

Sometimes when you get the killing blow with your Darkest night eviscerate on a mob

[spiral needle]

why have fun when you can have your entire tree depend on a janky debuff instead

[hazy breach]

The game tries to apply it to the dead mob

And then the game will think you have a mark up

So you cant reapply it anywhere else

[sullen hare]

[spiral needle]

well hopefully the pure ST fights don't have that issue

[sullen hare]

don't worry, please keep your subscription going, we'll have it fixed by the time the last titan is in 2-week early access for the $150 edition of TLT

pure ST we'll still go trickster even at a theoretical numerical loss

because not getting parried is worth it - AMONG OTHER THINGS -

[patent iris]

I have seen sims that outlaw will be pulling more than sub?

[hazy breach]

Oh yeah it can happen if you get parried on DN too

[sullen hare]

yep #outlaw

[sullen hare]

shit icing on a shit cake

[warm marlin]

deathstalker 3% ahead chuds when they get parried and lose 5% of their damage unlike trickster CHADS

[zinc glade]

Where in sams hell is this from?

[hollow forum]

found it on twitter its a paywalled sim sheet

[vale pine]

people do stupid things

[vale pine]

yes

[shy scarab]

Fuck DS

1 parry and its GG

[sullen hare]

all my homies hate deathstalker

[shy scarab]

Its prob not that bad

I preferd DS before trickster before

😆😆😆

[vale pine]

never rly liked DS

its just poorly designed

[shy scarab]

But one parry will be enough to fill rhe gap i guess..?

[red flame]

DS is sick thematically but Trickster just plays so much better

[crystal quiver]

Should we use spark on sidepiece embelishment or is it better to save spark and just craft embelishment

[flint parrot]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[wet anvil]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[stiff spear]

!sim

[vale pine]

if you want to craft, can craft a dagger, the risk of it being a bad craft is low (but not 0).
The second craft is more dynamic

2nd craft might depend on your drops

will likely always use one of the lower stat budget slots

like belt, bracers or boots

[flint parrot]

do we try to apex every coup? even if it's not supercharged

[crystal quiver]

yea but u can also craft using 80 veteran crests and no spark to just get the embelishment

[vale pine]

you can absolutely do that

[crystal quiver]

yea im just wondering whats optimal

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1476887002019270761/Midnight_s1_fixed.png

[mint bobcat]

Been wondering the same thing. At least on the dummy's hasn't seemed worth it to me but just anecdotal.

[valid tartan]

what changed with spriest to drop it down so low

[bleak night]

there was a bug with apparitions

originally they couldnt crit, then blizzard fixed it by making them always do 2x damage

[mint bobcat]

They nuked psychic link from orbit as well. 60% to 20%

[bleak night]

so they fixed them doing 2x damage

[valid tartan]

classic blizzard "fix"

[bleak night]

they did actually fix it correctly to crit, they just also somehow added them randomly doing 2x damage

because uh

reasons

[mint bobcat]

Why will my light's potential macro only use my max rank ones and not my silver ones lol?

[bleak night]

different item ids

only reason i can think of

[blissful basin]

Hi, Dagger Mainhandcraft with Crit & Mastery or Haste?

[short radish]

The most optimal thing to do is research boss fights

[distant sage]

did you guys have a problem with sensei bars dissapearing(numbers stay there but the bar shrinks to a little line in the middle

[valid tartan]

max rank is id 241308, low rank is 241309

[crystal quiver]

Why si the lightr company guidon considered bis for subrogue, does it add an additional gcd in dance?

[rain hull]

anyone here knows if these effects for the voidstorm trinket are openworld only?

[short radish]

Should impact thr trinket everywhere but also trinket doesn't work in sims

[hazy breach]

Yes

[rain hull]

the upgrades say "while fighting within Voidstorm" which for me means open world only and not in Voidspire for example

[crystal quiver]

Whats the next haste threshpoint for that? and do we know the lust threshholds

[hazy breach]

Roughly every 600 haste

Anything that isn't haste from gear does not affect dance duration

10% more haste ⛔
+253 haste

[vale pine]

!haste

[wicked jolt]

Secret Technique cooldown gets reduced by all haste sources, while Shadow Dance only from haste which increases your baseline haste. When using a haste trinket, make sure to use it before Shadow Dance to get the extended duraiton.

[soft summit]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[atomic matrix]

does anybody know if backstab buffs will make backstab better in the dance macro?

in single target of course

[stuck arrow]

I'm not sure I understand your question. Don't use backstab in dance.

[spare bobcat]

instead of Shuriken?

wont work cus u cant backstab during dance

[stuck arrow]

Also don't you use shuriken because of the 100% crit? Don't think bs has that.

[arctic heart]

are we going DS for any fight in raid/

[spare bobcat]

thats why u use it yes

[atomic matrix]

last season i was using dance + backstab macro to get into dance, now its shuriken storm into dance, even in single target because of the talent. will the 20% buff to backstab make any changes?

[stuck arrow]

Hopefully not. Maybe. Depends.

[arctic heart]

@stuck arrow thats very informative, thank you

[stuck arrow]

I know not exactly what you want to hear, but we don't know. Depends what role gets carved out for rogue.

[regal flax]

I don't even recall this being a thing lol

[stuck arrow]

I'm not familiar with last tier - but if you in dance should be using strike over back stab. I feel like this was likely not correct.

[arctic heart]

that my girl is going to leave jamal and come back

but thats ok

[dense mountain]

we used to use backstab with premed becuase it gave a danse macabre stack that used to give a dmg% bonus per stack. Now danse does flat damage, and its not currently worth using backstab for an additional danse macabre proc.

this coudl change with danse macbre tuning, but unlikley to change with backstab tuning

[atomic matrix]

awesome thanks, just watched shindigg old video for the explanation and was about to ask

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[flint parrot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[toxic swan]

during shadow bldes, it says we're supposed to use 2 SDs in its duration
I am assuming the 2nd SD does not have sectec up by then is that correct or am i misunderstanding something?

[mossy prairie]

Yes. In Blades the second never has Secret Tech.

[toxic swan]

so its just evis/bp spam for the 2nd one

[mossy prairie]

I think with 18% haste you get a secret Tech out of it at the end.

[toxic swan]

i see, thanks for the explanation

[mossy prairie]

But we will see what they nerf next time... Like now i wanted to play sub this season and it was in a decent spot. Hopefully they not nerf it again...

[swift tinsel]

with the tier set and enough haste you can sneak a second not-supercharged sectech in

otherwise you just use it with the dance after blades

[young path]

I swear when I was playing beta w/4set and bid gear there were setups I got a second supercharged sec tech in the 20sec blades window

Bis*

[astral axle]

as DS are we trying to enter dance so our supercharge will align with DN evisc or is it just if it lines up great if not nbd

[hazy breach]

Ideally you do that yes

[young path]

Think it was 10sec, 8sec and 8sec first dance timing and using the haste snapshot trinket

[hazy breach]

But you shouldnt be giga forcing it

[astral axle]

cool

[hazy breach]

You can do dance when sectech has like 3 seconds left too

[astral axle]

So no kind of like.. sending BP as you stall right?

[hazy breach]

And go DN > sectech

[hazy breach]

No

[astral axle]

Cool

Thanks Eleem :) ♥️

[vagrant fulcrum]

Issue is where the logical end to this way of thinking is, do we blame someone for saying their views about what’s good / bad? Yeah I see your point with tier lists but I think it’s still a stretch to blame tier lists for meta mimicry, that’s down to us the players, and ngl Warcraft logs and details were more to blame than tier lists for rerolls in my experience

[unkempt yarrow]

Yo, as Deathstalker is there a meaning to track Deathstalker's Mark, Darkest Night and Ancient Arts on a ST boss?

[west tide]

at least now that its easy rerolls and meta fotm rerollers will likely succeed mroeso going forward ❤️

[jagged coyote]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal vortex]

my pov is that if the tierlists were well designed and thought out content I would be ok. Now it is just for mindless consumption so yeah I blame them. But I can understand someone disagreeing with that.

[vagrant fulcrum]

The issue is it doesn’t matter how well designed or thought out they are

They’re trying to predict tuning essentially

They’re answering a different question than the one people are asking

[tribal vortex]

My issue is that they are not answering any, and they are just baiting traffic

If they were trying to answer any questions I'd be ok

[vagrant fulcrum]

I think they answer what’s good right now, right?

People want to know what’s going to be good when the season launches

Post tuning xd

[unkempt yarrow]

Okie I understand why now, tyvm

[fiery fog]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[sick sand]

!AA

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[stuck dune]

So we should be death stalker for raid huh

[inner prairie]

Pretty sure thats if it's pure single target, which most of the raid is not?

[stuck dune]

Fair

Wondering how many bosses we are playing veiltouched over potent powder

[hollow compass]

thats a big ret nerf

[fiery fog]

there is like 1 boss without cleave

or 2

[shrewd ermine]

give link

pls

[sharp peak]

oh no, people looking at these sims and thinking it means anything

[thin sinew]

People will never learn though despite countless datasets agreeing with your statement 😛

[sick dagger]

Question, do we always force AA proc with ss regardless of how many targets there are?

[somber fog]

where can i find this sheet?

[formal estuary]

hello friends, I'm here to ask annoying questions that either A) don't matter or B) have been discussed above extensively.

Question(s):
#1 If my dance and secret technique are coming up, what's the max amount of time I hold finishers for to stack up shadow techniques CPs? Is this affected at all by a coup de grace proc?
#2 Related to the above: Do I send any black powder on ST to hold coup for the dance window?

[pure wave]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[calm wigeon]

Dang outlaw ST dmg isn’t bad?

[formal estuary]

on a sim. outlaw has disappointed in the past in real performance, though this is new outlaw so all bets are ON 😄

[somber fog]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GKshVVe_RAXO0I7kFnmg4Nu7kkqbJRV4GItbUHCvLfc/htmlview?pru=AAABnRIkanA*ArNFO5PK5r6R7UXwrn-Zfg#gid=1774556142

[sharp peak]

this sheet needs to burn with the amount of people looking at it, but not understand what they're looking at

[somber fog]

just sharing if someone is interested

[stuck dune]

The dual dragon boss is probably full ST build yea? I lm not sure the add spawns will live very long

[sharp peak]

interested in something that is incomplete as is, and has no context on raid?

[marble sail]

probably yes

[stuck dune]

Trying to think which others are fill ST.. the second boss for sure

[dire ravine]

Vorasius seems fairly ST, and Belo'ren

[somber fog]

idk i see ppl posting everywhere screens, i just wanted to share the source, i play assa rogue so xd

idc

[dire ravine]

The blistercreeps are stagger spawns, so im assuming we''d be killing them individually?

[stuck dune]

Nexus king is prolly full ST too

[dire ravine]

IDTS

[knotty cove]

nexus king is target swapping constantly i would not want to be deathstalker on it

[stuck dune]

Boss one seems pretty heavy ape

Aoe

[dire ravine]

NK, there are a lot of orbs, active orbs, and dormant orbs that are reactivated.

[stuck dune]

I’m just talking bosses where we are speccing for black powder

[sharp peak]

there goes the gaze trinket nerf

[twin quartz]

Are we umbral plume gamers now

[heavy drum]

Hey guys I was looking at the sub rotation and I saw this :
As Trickster Try to ensure that you always have ancient art active for your supercharged non-Secret Technique Finisher during Dance

Why dont we want to use ancient art on secret technique ? isnt it our bigest dammage spell ?

[astral axle]

Another nerf to that trinket?! Alneverseer coming!

[dense mountain]

I believe it only amps the damage of the first phys hit, not the 2 shadow clone hits, which makes it not very good

not sure if thats a bug or intended

[heavy drum]

I see, so we enter dance with secret technique as our first finisher then befor the second finisher we want to proc ancient art

[hazy breach]

!Premed

[wicked jolt]

There is a bug that makes it so while Premeditation is active you cannot get a refund nor spawn the clone from Ancient Arts. This is not something you need to play around, as using Ancient Arts of Secret Technique is about the same value as using it on a regular Eviscerate.

[hazy breach]

This also makes it so you kinda dont end up using it on sectech anyway a lot of the time

[heavy drum]

??

[unreal musk]

should i keep track of Unseen blade?

[vocal rock]

Is it normal to cap energy a lot when you pop CDs? Not sure I can press my builder/finisher any faster and still my energy caps 😭

[hazy breach]

Yes you have infinite energy

[heavy drum]

Thanks for the explanation

[vocal rock]

Ty

[heavy drum]

Did I understood right ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[heavy drum]

Thanks

[viral phoenix]

"At all targets" for trickster do the apex optimization, just wanna ask is it intentionally stated to "use shadowstrike" when all the conditions are met? Say we're at 9 targets it should be a shuriken storm to proc Apex right? Or is there a reason we prio strike for this

[hazy breach]

If you are at full cp the strike+macabre does more damage than a storm

Unless its insanely high target count, but even if thats the case you'd almost surely want the extra priority damage from the strike anyway

And the difference is negliglible either way

[astral axle]

Anyone else get a weird bug where you try to fight the last boss and your games crashes? It seems like some kind of L'ura Error.

[viral phoenix]

Ah macabre ok ok that makes sense, thank you. On the opener for trickster when we have 4 stacks of supercharger (3 after pressing sec tech) would you go strike to proc the first one and for the 3rd one shuriken storm? (if aoe target count)

[astral axle]

[west tide]

they nerfed the alnseer trinket again

20%

[hazy breach]

Minor Trinket Tuning

• Gaze of the Alnseer was looking like the best trinket by far, after this it seems like its simming similar to a few other trinkets (most notably both of the Radiant Plumes) as the best option for passives.
• Crucible change hopefully makes it so it procs more reliably for Rogues and that it can be simmed properly

[swift tinsel]

vessel my not-beloved

[hazy breach]

Im a bit suspicious about how its modelled in the sim, but we'll see

[naive zodiac]

vessel passive trinket

[proper eagle]

Love DS buff but seems trickster is more efficient on raid due to cleave bosses

[hazy breach]

But yeah the gaze is still good and plumes are good

So get those

[proper eagle]

Wait DS did not buffed

[viral phoenix]

we dont worry about this for the second shadow dance in shadow blades right? Like we wouldnt spend a GCD outside of dance in blades to fulfill the condition?

[hazy breach]

You mostly do, since youre not in dance all of blades anyway (once you get 4p, which is +4 seconds of blades)

[coral trail]

Hey all new here - where can I go regarding crafting/gearing for advice on spending my crests?

[rain vault]

Was curious if sub rogues ever choose gloomblade for certain boss fights, like Vorasius for example that we will always be dpsing the front of him?

[proper eagle]

Do we use strom instead of strike by SD+strike bug?

[hazy breach]

!guides should all be updated and have what you want covered

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[proper eagle]

When you play DS

[twin quartz]

I reckon maybe on pure st fights without target swapping

[quick burrow]

Don’t think so, not worth the talent point.

[short radish]

Gloomblade also needs to attack from behind

[hazy breach]

Nah they fixed that

[short radish]

No way

[hazy breach]

But also backstab does such an insignificant amount of damage

[rain vault]

12% of my dmg is backstab

[hazy breach]

that it not being buffed by behind behind is whatever

[rain vault]

3rd in numbers

[hazy breach]

That sounds extremly wrong

[graceful crown]

xd

[short radish]

Bruh

[hazy breach]

It says 2.9%

[frosty sinew]

checks out for me

[graceful crown]

that was fun ngl

[frosty sinew]

shadowstrike is backstab confirmed

[rain vault]

backstab turns into shadowstrike

[hazy breach]

It does not

[sharp ravine]

xd

[rain vault]

ah, completely seperate?

[hazy breach]

Those are two different spells

[spiral needle]

what is shadowstrike, but a bigger, fancier backstab?

[rich canopy]

Related, is there a recommended time to start pooling before dance?

[hazy breach]

Backstab should turn into shadowstrike, but it currently does not

[graceful crown]

im in love

[rain vault]

i mean it replaces the spell, sorry i haven't palyed rogue since 2004 man. Just learning it.

[spiral needle]

don't doxx me

[swift tinsel]

I usually do around 3-4 sec out depending on my sht situation

[hazy breach]

Sim has it at 3 seconds but like anything around there is fine

[rich canopy]

You also need to cap CP before pooling though

[brisk onyx]

It’s a shadow strike without shadow just physical ye

[spiral needle]

the clone procs handle the shadow part

share the load

[graceful crown]

i want a gloomshadow strike that deals 100% shadow damage and ignores 100% armor

instead gloomtalent

[brisk onyx]

gloom lover!

[graceful crown]

Yes!

[supple pawn]

Dumb question

Does armour matter in pve

[brisk onyx]

sure

[hazy breach]

All enemies have a 30% reduction from armor in pve

Some (very few) attacks that deal physical damage by mobs and bosses gets reduced by armor

The most common case where armor matters is when there are "archer" mobs, that just spam something like "shoot" on a random target

Like the demolition duo in floodgate

[graceful crown]

goremaw and gloomblade idk, blizz did you know? you can change them

[supple pawn]

Oh, I meant about gloomblade use in PVE eleem 😭

[hazy breach]

Well

#subtlety message

[rain vault]

Sorry i asked a dumb question, i just legit though backstab and shadowstrike changed with gloomblade, but only backstab does. So i see why its trash.

[supple pawn]

I swear every single thing is chronicled in this channel 😭

Sorry to bother eleem, tyty

[graceful crown]

it would be not that bad if gloomblade talent change shadowstrike with the properties it gives to backstab

[torpid echo]

why do we pick belt over wrist crafted? stats?

[rain vault]

ya, i was thinking it did 🙁 so thats why i thought it might e good for Vorasius

ma bad.

[sudden chasm]

did we get nerf already, I feel like doing less dmg

[stuck arrow]

That juicy shadow damage increase. Nice.

[graceful crown]

and bypass all armor resistances

[supple pawn]

Tbf it would make sense for Shadowstrike to deal shadow damage

[stuck arrow]

If gloomblade changed strike I bet brew one of our best talents.

[stuck arrow]

Yeah but why would Blizzard make sense?

[granite river]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[north schooner]

shadowstrike should deal shadowstrike damage, not shadow

[lilac stag]

You pick whatever low stat value shitty item slot you have. belt, bracers, cloak.

[stuck arrow]

Also like. How hype would it be if our shadowy death mark did shadow damage instead of... Plague damage?

[north schooner]

but plague is shadow too

[stuck arrow]

We going to stalk you to death, with rats. Apparently.

[bleak night]

its literally just plague bc its nature and shadow

[north schooner]

they made it plague to work for both assa and sub

[bleak night]

so it works for both assa and sub

[lilac stag]

I’ll keep our combo of shadow + nature dmg. Kthx

[stuck arrow]

Is it actually? Lol. Ok I'm less salty about that then. Lol.

Because making two tooltips that differ by spec apparently not feasible so let's make it confusing instead. 😂

[hazy breach]

Plague is nature+shadow yeah

So it benefits from everything that amps nature, and everything that amps shadow

[north schooner]

multischool spells are literally always better

it always picks the school which will do the most damage

[stuck arrow]

Just lacks clarity is all.

[lilac stag]

did you ask what is plague dmg?

[north schooner]

they should but if you want you can find the info here https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Magic_schools

[astral axle]

plague damage is what happens when you don't brush your teeth and floss regularly

[bleak night]

thats just what 9/10 dentists would have you believe

[hazy breach]

But yeah if gloomblade also made shadowstrike do +15% dmg as well as turn it into shadow damage it would indeed be a very strong talent

Still not insane though fwiw

[astral axle]

i am funded by Big Smile

[lilac stag]

@bleak night what class are you playing in heroic?

[stuck arrow]

Idk - asmon seems to be surviving. 😂

[bleak night]

my guild doesnt do splits so just playing my main priest

[swift tinsel]

bc he's subhuman

[bleak night]

but im gonna pug on rogue

[swift tinsel]

roaches can live through anything

[stuck arrow]

https://youtu.be/MH2UkCLvXAk

[swift tinsel]

I just greatly dislike everything about the concept of him as well as the actual 'person' him

[stuck arrow]

A well adjusted take, imo.

[bleak night]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3bz7aeqCXM

[graceful crown]

He seems like a politician

[odd jacinth]

any not worthy rotation changes tomorrow with going death stalker for single target?

note*

[stuck arrow]

Outside of what's in the FAQs, and the aa optimization, no.

But definitely a bit of a change.

[odd jacinth]

ok tyvm

[swift tinsel]

literal paragon of the god of rot

[gentle sonnet]

if crucible gets fixed properly, is there a chance for it to be BIS even as a champ track piece?

[gusty jungle]

someone know why simc does 2 ss ? for fishing apex proc ?

[gentle sonnet]

apex fishing

[hazy breach]

Dw about it. The default sim is a little bit behind, ill update it soonTM

[gusty jungle]

ok thats what i was thinking

[gentle sonnet]

if you look, you can see it's at 3 stacks of ST, so it's going to fish for the 7 stacks of ST and a apex proc

[hazy breach]

Because theres something that makes it crash sometimes, and waiting for somebody to fix it

[gusty jungle]

thanks

[brisk onyx]

I have no problem with him personally, I just hate his extreme fans who take his words as bible and ridicule other players everywhere: You guys are still playing WoW? That Disney game?

[hazy breach]

No, but its an alright trinket

[gusty jungle]

you want to reach 7 stack ?

[hazy breach]

No

[gentle sonnet]

!ST

[gusty jungle]

you just want to fish apex talent ?

[gentle sonnet]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[hazy breach]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[mental snow]

so is it really trickster for raid? all the sim sheets ive been seeing going around the last couple days show deathstalker ahead

[gusty jungle]

thanks guys

[hazy breach]

Theres also more info about it in the #subtlety-faq

But the TLDR is you want your big finishers (that is not sectech because of reasons) to have the apex active

[gentle sonnet]

if it's pure ST, then deathstalker, otherwise trickster

[mental snow]

is there a st fight this tier

i dont think so

[sudden chasm]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[spiral needle]

So at the end of the day, is the AA optimization really just making sure you have it for your 2nd charged point since the 1st will go to sec tech

besides the double dance during sblades I suppose

[karmic rose]

there is no mentionning of a target count for the apex optimization so i would assume it is done on aoe as well if the criterias are met?

[hazy breach]

Yes

(not for deathstalker, but you dont really want to play deathstalker in aoe anyway)

Theres some more info in the FAQ

#subtlety-faq

[karmic rose]

Thank you

[round sphinx]

Is the wowhead guide up to date/accurate that we want to be crafting Farstrider's Mercy with Darkmoon Sigil: Hunt

[swift tinsel]

do my eyes deceive me

[hazy breach]

Yes

[granite jackal]

Why is it only a gain to trigger aa for supercharged finishers?

[hazy breach]

Well not to only trigger it for it

To explicitly force it

Those finishers do more damage, so buffing them is more valueable than buffing those that dont do as much damage

[stuck arrow]

Because supercharged finishers do more damage, so you can sacrifice extra finisher damage for an extra strike to ensure that happens.

Iirc it's still neutral to do the optimization without supercharger. But I may be wrong there, things be changing daily.

[karmic rose]

when you enter dance as trickster and full cp, do you do the shuriken sotrm dance opener to proc apex and then spend your first supercharged with S.T. or do you send secret technique right away with the dance macro?

[hazy breach]

Slightly worse than neutral, but its not horrible

[hazy breach]

Trickster always secret technique+dance

Deathstalker always storm+dance

[past token]

sorry if i'm interrupting a conversation but is any of the engineering embellishments minimally competitive?

[stuck arrow]

How slightly we talking?

[karmic rose]

Ty eleem you're the goat

[hazy breach]

Like -0.4% or something

[proper eagle]

You don't really care aa playing as trickster its just 1% loss

[inner prairie]

I'm stupid and trying to make sure I understand(It's been a really long couple days so I apologise). The entire point of the optimization of an extra generator is to make sure that we are procing Ancient Arts to get the extra damage it provides with the shadow clone portion of the talent, and further optimizing it by trying to make sure the second super-charged combo finisher that we get from Shadow Dance is always used on a finished that is juiced by Ancient Arts?

[versed hawk]

do we still bp at 2 target after nerfs?

[faint quail]

caan someone send the gear sheet like track/ilvl pls

[tropic merlin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[faint quail]

no the gear track one

vet /champ/myth, etc

[south kernel]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1476887002019270761/Midnight_s1_fixed.png

[faint quail]

goat ty!

[south kernel]

anytime fam

[oak hearth]

how many sparks should we have rn and where do they come from

I've got 3

Should have 4, no?

[inner prairie]

We have 3 and they come from doing weekly activities.

[oak hearth]

ah okay

im good to go

[inner prairie]

We'll have 4 on the 24th

[oak hearth]

can we craft now or tomorrow

[inner prairie]

Usually it's every other week if it was the same as TWW.

[gilded ferry]

does DS falloff really hard with 2 targets?

fights like the pallies we'll prob be running trickster, right?

[stuck arrow]

Can craft if you want. It's low risk compared to other classes. Is higher risk than waiting.

[inner prairie]

BiS is crafted off-hand anyways right? Worse case you've got your off-hand for the season good to go if thats what you're crafting.

[stuck arrow]

Correct. Also you'd want to craft the same thing for Sin, and OL crafted dagger is BiS offhand. So.

[inner prairie]

It's the safest craft honestly and just sets you up for the season either way.

[stuck arrow]

But obviously if you end up playing outlaw it'll suck if you crafted dagger instead of ol main hand.

But like. It's not terrible to craft a dagger.

[keen geode]

does anyone know if tomorrow when we get daily 0's if its the actualy season 1 pool or still just midnight dungeons?

[warped zodiac]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[inner prairie]

Mostly because of embelishments, 'cause BiS lists currently have dagger as off-hand for OL.

[hazy dust]

DS the new way for ST now?

[stuck arrow]

For pure ST yes. Not sure if that's the play or not for raid yet.

[inner prairie]

Almost all the bosses have cleave/adds of some sort so it'll remain to be seen likely.

[tired heart]

Should be S1 pool

[gilded ferry]

Idk how fast the adds die, but, I saw a lot of cleave fights

[eager latch]

i love fuu so much it's unreal

[echo magnet]

Worth crafting dagger with embellish this week to use as offhand?

Not spending any crests just the spark + embellish

[hazy breach]

Offhand is the least important slot