subtlety

[astral axle]

"i should have feinted"

[tribal vortex]

but with the other 2 specs you don't need to anticipate that much

[plush roost]

Idk if youve played outlaw this tier

[lilac stag]

Tell that to outlaw

[plush roost]

But its more starved than sub

[dense geode]

you definintely do

[lilac stag]

[tribal vortex]

With outlaw I didn't feel that starved with around 22% haste

[plush roost]

Assa as well has energy issues in m+ build

[azure thicket]

part of outlaws energy regen is rng, it'll happen at some point

[gilded ferry]

its always the same thing every beginning of the tier

[plush roost]

When i hit da sinister strike x5 combo on stage 1 rtb

[astral axle]

with chain pulling/long fights it'll happen when you're in the depths of energy despair on outlaw for a few seconds.

but like

[lilac stag]

Worse this tier since everyone thinks they can orange parse sub now.

[astral axle]

again for sub if you're sweating about pressing backstab i mean

[azure thicket]

again just add some loss prevention after adrenaline rush wears off double proc rate for a bit

litewally affects nothing

[gilded ferry]

for someone to orange parse, someone has to green parse

[lilac stag]

I HAD TO USE FIENT DURING BLADEFLURRY

[astral axle]

it is like worrying about whether you remembered to flush the toilet

[gilded ferry]

late stage capitalism in azeroth

[plush roost]

This is worse than not backstabbing

[astral axle]

yeah well you live with ur partner

[vale pine]

outalw is now probably the hardest rogue spec

[astral axle]

[vale pine]

funnily enough

[plush roost]

[lilac stag]

Imagine your mom not coming to your basement to empty the bucket. Seesh

[vale pine]

like, there is min/max in subtlety thats not easy

[astral axle]

BASED

[vale pine]

but in general, the spec is fun and simple

it has to be seen if tuning is done better than in the last xpacs

because m+ and raid popularity of subtlety will 100% depend on it

[astral axle]

okay okay to be fair i couldnt think of something trivial and my default is toilet humor

[vale pine]

if tuning is good = subtlety plyer numbers are high

[lilac stag]

2 months of complaining about 2 buttons. Last 2 weeks:

• why do I have to do this apex shit
• why doesn’t my BP/Coup macro work

https://tenor.com/view/sad-brooklyn-nine-im-sad-that-makes-me-feel-sad-gif-8415051601638618450

[gilded ferry]

this second one is because of the range I assume?

[lilac stag]

idk fuck that macro

[young heart]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[patent iris]

Heya! I was wondering the changes how will they impact sub rogues ? I mean I understand their focus on ST but AoE will be dicey imo?

[dense geode]

[lilac stag]

Youre questioning your opinion? Or?

[patent iris]

I slept 3 hours - bear with me haha

[gilded ferry]

lmao

[granite river]

get rid of the bear

very insafe

[azure thicket]

hopefully gear is gonna even out the tuning

[patent iris]

But bear is all the vibes!

[gilded ferry]

u need some scotch and a marvin gaye scath

[lilac stag]

no idea what it means until it’s live. Likely more ST dmg. Less burst AOE.

[gilded ferry]

chilling at the function

[torn tide]

real

[azure thicket]

i wonder how easy the 10s are gonna be in vet champ gear

cause people will just get a myth trinket and proceed to womp stuff tbh

[lilac stag]

How easy will lfg be after the wall of blue text.

[azure thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-meme-coffee-waiting-for-you-gif-349728038600028190

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/gina-linetti-brooklyn-99-stantwt-dance-dance-meme-gif-8985803474810934519

[azure thicket]

anyway what a good week made 240 space marine time :D👍

[regal current]

cant believe its ass season

[tepid trellis]

its a sub tier

[vale osprey]

If you're doing 10s in (10 days) Wednesday (Tues for you Americans) you'll be in a good chunk of hero gear hopefully anyway

[tepid trellis]

it always is

[regal current]

shut up

you need to sandbag

cant believe ass is so good

we need to be more like the boomkins

[tepid trellis]

im too gifted

[azure thicket]

honestly true

[lilac stag]

assa is good

[tepid trellis]

cant sandbag

[lilac stag]

Don’t believe the discord depression

[tepid trellis]

cant wait to find out which class im playing for raid in a weeks time

gonna be fun

[regal current]

unholy dk

[vale pine]

i hope its subtlety rogue

[lilac stag]

is it possible no rogue for DH stack?

[tepid trellis]

we have two rogue players

[lilac stag]

Ah

[tepid trellis]

so if its DH stack im playing DH

and if hunters are good

then he plays hunter and i play rogue

[vagrant sinew]

cant wait to hatewatch dtealthi on dh

[lilac stag]

how many hunters marks are needed

[plush roost]

Its more that mm hunter is turbo fucked

[lilac stag]

right now Hunter looks good

[plush roost]

Me when im a 2 target 220k dps class

[bleak night]

yeah hydra is giga bugged atm or something

with sentinel

seems funny

[lilac stag]

ye

[bleak night]

dragons gonna be 10 hunters pog

[lilac stag]

New boomkins

[dry plank]

Insta unfollow xD

[wanton oxide]

What’s the %difference between Deathstalker pure st vs trickster pure st after the tuning?

[hollow spear]

No fix announced?

[tepid trellis]

depends how they end up implementing shit

so will have to wait for tuesday to know

[plush roost]

Theyre waiting to implement sims since they are likely to forget a clone or shadowed finisher with buffs XD

[tepid trellis]

there is a bunch of clone stuff

that might either be there or not

[wanton oxide]

Makes sense

[bleak night]

i love how many classes just dont know whether the buffs they get will function

spriest also waiting to see if the buffs work with pets or if they forget again

[plush roost]

Ds is looking higher tho esp pre tierset

[hollow spear]

Pistolpete and no yellow name, sussy

[limber folio]

we are so up

[plush roost]

For PURE st

[bleak night]

imagine

[tepid trellis]

if things gets implemented right

[bleak night]

deathstalker bis for beloren but then theres a bug where mark disappears on the egg or some shit

[tepid trellis]

DS is just better single target

[vale pine]

we do the same

just its not pets but clones

[bleak night]

thats what brought that statement up yeah

[plush roost]

Its better rn, it just sims low cause unshakable drive wasnt implemented XD

Go smack a dummy if u dont believe

[tepid trellis]

it does now

[hollow spear]

Ig that's what he implied with the "also"

[plush roost]

[vale pine]

haha true

[runic sinew]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

i need to improve my reading comprehension skill

(or reduce distraction)

[hollow spear]

That assumes that they didn't mess up the implementation tho?

[vale pine]

yes

if they do, its ~3% lower

[torn tide]

how are u getting such insane numbers in this sim btw

[hollow spear]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[torn tide]

ty

[hollow spear]

Did you update the aa command?

[vale pine]

we did

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[vale pine]

things should be updated

but if we missed something, let us know

[wanton oxide]

lol when I rolled this character several years ago I had every intention of playing outlaw, but then I fell in love with Sub

[jaunty heath]

are we DS enjoyers again

[wanton oxide]

So yea my name is kind of defunct and confusing now

[hollow spear]

Looks good to me

Pretty intuitive

[vale pine]

kinda yes

on the more st oriented bosses

[hollow spear]

But I'm not holding my breath

[torn tide]

damn darkest night?? ds coming back?

[jaunty heath]

so the dance storm macro is back

cool

[vale pine]

well

[hollow spear]

Was it ever gone

[vale pine]

or you use strike in the macro

and still arn't sure about the 0.1 sec

[hollow spear]

The second there's some add cleave, it'll be trickster

[vale pine]

which could be impactful, or irrelevant

[jaunty heath]

atleast we got buff tracked apex

thats nice

[fair wedge]

does the coup + bp macro not work if i spam it? smetimes my cps end up getting used up on bp despite being melee range

[fiery fog]

on a pure st fight DS should be alright to play right. like there is nothing really to consider besides doing the same as always (except starting dance at low cp with the storm macro) i guess?

[warm marlin]

Unless it’s a st fight where your mark will decide to disappear and never come back

[jaunty heath]

thats like my only issues with DS, managning or not managing mark

[fiery fog]

well if the mark decides to play games

i just dont touch ds at all

[jaunty heath]

thats option too, they are close anyway

[fiery fog]

but shouldnt sub have like no problems at all applying the mark

and reapplying it if it decides to disappear

[valid ocean]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[jaunty heath]

did anyone experince that apex dont proc for fun

[sacred magnet]

Hey, is there a replacement for the liquid/method auras for the raid?

Or what is the plan of the guilds to do it

[chilly talon]

Any idea how much of a gain the Apex optimization is in terms of dps?

[fiery fog]

~1.5% i think

[chilly talon]

And we do not do it the "old" way anymore, only how it's described above?

[patent iris]

Is it worth to actually craft a dagger rn ?

[iron tartan]

its quite low risk if you craft dagger

[broken saffron]

Very wrong place to ask. But anyone knows how aeomaxx rare works?

Just found it but I cant neither mount it nor kill it because I get oneshot

[lilac stag]

#wow-general #google

[plush pecan]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[pulsar prawn]

anyone have a good plater profile for this tier yet? or a good multiclass dps one?

[limber folio]

i like jundies as usual

[swift tinsel]

did blizz intentionally change kicks so that it doesn't keep them from casting for a bit after

bc mobs are immediately casting again right after getting kicked

[limber folio]

has it not been like that for a while tho

[foggy egret]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[empty plume]

crazy that the premed shadowcraft bug survived the transition to apex talent system (almost like they copy pasted a talent from our tree and made it the apex)

[bleak night]

if anything they did the opposite

[swift tinsel]

I could have sworn if you kicked a mob mid-cast they didn't for a few seconds

[bleak night]

at the start of midnight they increased the lockout on most kicks

so if thats not happening its a bug

[swift tinsel]

its happened many times now, like in Murder Row kicking a warlock's shadow bolt and as soon as that was interrupted it hard-cast Rain of Fire

[bleak night]

as long as you mean actual kick and not just stopping

[swift tinsel]

yeah actual kicking

[bleak night]

well those are different schools

[swift tinsel]

ah ig

[bleak night]

its only a lockout on the specific school

[swift tinsel]

but I'm doing calamitous rn and the soul siphon gets kicked and it immediately casts that umbral bolt

idk if that's attributed to schools as well

but there's been other instances

[bleak night]

potentially one is arcane and the other is shadow

[swift tinsel]

ye that's my only thought

otherwise things are quite screwy

[flint parrot]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warped fox]

With sub gaining more benefit from crit/mastery in aoe, if i do not plan on raiding and only focus on m+ and delves, logic dictates i could just focus on those two stats over reaching 700 haste right?

I would be sacrificing st dmg for aoe doing that

[pulsar flame]

Can anyone explain this? Shadowstrike deal more dmg than finisher in some situations?

[vale pine]

yep

its all about damage

[torpid snow]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[torpid snow]

wtf is that

okey i think know all

[lilac stag]

You can, but those activities will still benefit from the additional gcd(s) in dance

[warped fox]

🤦‍♂️ forgot about the added gcd. Thanks

[torn tide]

is that also why we use shadow strike and bp if its exactly 2 targets

instead of storm and bp

when shadowstrike is available atleast

[lilac stag]

Tbh 684-700 is just comfy. You’ll still have plenty of stats to add with mastery & crit.

[vale pine]

yes

strike does good damage

[valid ocean]

am i crazy, isn't macroing Dance + SecTech at odds with trying to get AA up before your SecTech?

[indigo pumice]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

its fine to macro dance + secret

[valid ocean]

i guess if you have 5 shadow technique stacks you just backstab once before dance+sec? if you have less then 5 st you just send

[finite crow]

so is it worth to spend veteran crests or na?

[tribal vortex]

The best use of vet crests is to save some champ crests I guess

There is nothing difficult atm so you don't need to spend

[azure thicket]

i mean if you have enough to craft and the gold to splash

that's probably just as good

talking myself into farming 500 copper ore to level blacksmithing so i can do my own daggers and save 20k @_@

[finite crow]

idk i made like 8mil from the start of the expansion

[azure thicket]

was happy with going from 60k to 300

gah dam

[finite crow]

well mining and herbalisam were broken in the start

[azure thicket]

ye i probably lost about 75-130k on death rolls during myth prog

[tribal vortex]

I did some mining and herbalism but got like a very small amount of gold

And all people were complaining that it was like 15k/hour this time around

[bleak night]

i think the last time i did an hour i got around 41k

[swift tinsel]

yeah you could make very good gold selling herbs/ore and even fish in EA

prics have come down precipitously

hell I was selling the Teas from cooking for like 600% profit

[tribal vortex]

In tww you could make like 100-200/hour

[bleak night]

the teas have gone down a ton but you can still make a bit of profit off them

[tribal vortex]

this time herbing was very bad

skinning ended up better than herbalism

[swift tinsel]

they put a lot of nodes in mob-dense spots or straight up have them spawn mobs

[bleak night]

herbing is a lot worse than mining for sure

[swift tinsel]

like good luck trying to gather herbs in voidstorm

[bleak night]

azeroot tea + darkmoon firewater

and you have the deftness to never have an issue

[swift tinsel]

good comms

I usually just stack finesse and vibe

but that's typically when I'm in queue

[bleak night]

can have multiple mobs trying to hit you and still complete the gather

ez

[swift tinsel]

I always forget about darkmoon firewater

usually just throw on a razorstone and tea

[bleak night]

also zul aman is kinda op bc you get the deftness buff from filo

its minor but we take everything we can get

[warm marlin]

you can't use aa until you've built at least once in dance due to a bug with premeditation

sectec just isn't important to get aa on so you ignore it and press macro

[valid ocean]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[swift tinsel]

I just do the eversong loop since its ez and get a good amount of argentleaf

[valid ocean]

yeah but that's like... the opposite of what the AA optimization says?

[swift tinsel]

esp now that I have like 40% finesse

[twilit gorge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

it usually only applies to the second supercharged combo point

you don't do it if your next finisher is sectec

[trail nova]

newbie question: everytime i go into shadow dance, i should cast the macro with ss and sd and always on low cp?

[hazy breach]

As deathstalker yes

[weak glade]

it wont let me copy the import string

[torpid snow]

Have I met all the requirements for AA on SS?

I should press ss right ?

[tulip light]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[tepid trellis]

yes

[uneven widget]

any thoughts on 17 patch?

[vale pine]

tl;dr

more single target, worse cleave

we are fine

[uneven widget]

less aoe overall ?

[vale pine]

raid is what matters, m+ will be relevant later

and we offer strong burst, which is good in raid usually

[quartz mantle]

is the apex optimization back to being all the time? not just during lust?

[verbal kelp]

is there a list of talent builds we should take per boss for the raids?

[hazy breach]

Yesnt

[hazy breach]

Theres practically no talents you want to swap

[verbal kelp]

ah cool

so just one trickster build all the way?

[crystal atlas]

Way my guild looks at me is hey least you have a rsid buff:(

[open vortex]

how much of a time buffer do you need in between popping haste trinket and dance to get the correct duration

[hazy breach]

Like 5 milliseconds or something, as long as you dont macro it youre fine

[torpid snow]

Shindig said in the video to use a target of 3 or below this is a ture ?

aa

[sullen hare]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[mental kettle]

am i dreaming or was lust requirement removed from this

[hazy breach]

There was other changes to it

But yes

[open vortex]

seems like its not consistent? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1T2NwJcqZkgMWdLR?fight=last&type=auras&source=2&view=events dance lasts 7.616s here (correct amt) when i pop trinket .14s beforehand

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/m1xNkQyPJHr4ZDct?fight=last&type=auras&source=2&view=events dance lasts 7.2s here (not affected by feather) when i pop it .211 beforehand?

[hazy breach]

Those are private logs

[open vortex]

rip lmfao

[hollow trench]

Man I need a haste ring so bad

[open vortex]

unprivated

[hollow trench]

I’m just stuck at 15%

Feels so bad

[hazy breach]

In your first log you have your other trinket procced for additional haste

[quasi portal]

!FUU

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[open vortex]

ahhh got it, ty

[shadow snow]

I know it sounds dumb but what is the diff in rotation between deathstalker and trickster. I can't see it

[spiral needle]

deathstalker rotation you open talent screen and swap to trickster

[lilac stag]

Things change rapidly when the new expansion / season starts. Don’t be shocked by things like DS being on top for ST only now and ever changing tweaks to min maxes

[lilac stag]

You mean like starting dance at full cp vs low cp and storm?

#subtlety-faq

[shadow snow]

I want to know for ST only

In aoe i will be playing trickster for sure

[warm marlin]

both of the things scath said are for ST

[blazing night]

Little Rogue question here, would stacking Evasion and Cloak of Shadows together allow the rogue to stay on target during Lumbering Fixation from Ick and Krick?

[finite crow]

Evasion useless

[verbal kelp]

With the AA optimization update, and the fact that it now requires a supercharged combo point to use it, should we aim to enter Shadow Dance with a few stacks of ST already built to ensure those two supercharged points are actually spent on AA?

My understanding is that Shadow Dance is the only source of supercharged combo points, and you get two right at the start of Dance. Given that, would it be better to delay slightly and build up to around 5+ ST stacks before Shadowstriking and spending those supercharged points on finishers with AA? Or is it generally better to just send Dance and hit finishers on cooldown and not worry too much about perfectly lining that up?

Hopefully that makes sense, I’m basically wondering whether we should prioritize entering Dance with ST already stacked so the supercharged combo points are guaranteed to be used with AA.

[blazing night]

Even against autoattacks?

[patent iris]

Sorry I am kinda stupid but what is AA?

[hazy breach]

Yes you generally hold for a bit as per the FAQ

[hazy breach]

Should work against auto attacks, but theres no rule

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt

Just have to manually test it

Or check the speadsheet in #wow-general pins

Where somebody else tested it

[coral bear]

Hi everyone, I havent been on the discord for a while, happy to be back here, is there an advanced guide someone has made, I would love to min-maxing

[blazing night]

Thank you for pointing me to that.

[coral bear]

!acient arts

!acientarts

[finite crow]

Xd

[coral bear]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

Those are ST deathstalker vs trickster

[finite crow]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[ornate lake]

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-walter-white-gif-8086630669522815021

8-10% nerf to overall after the update

[coral bear]

@hazy breach Sorry for tagging you, when is it worth it to re-use shadowstrike to proc acient arts if full combo already

[lilac stag]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[ornate lake]

Bro sub dead?

[coral bear]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[coral bear]

Oh

Imd umb

right infront of me

Sorry for not reading

[lilac stag]

it’s ok. Were used to that here

[coral bear]

Does ancient arts worth procing with backstab too?

if no shadwodance

[lilac stag]

nothing outside of dance is worth it. Basically just don’t overcap and be ready for next dance.

[coral bear]

So with that logic, should I be min-maxing, trying to always have 5 shadowtechniques buff to try to abuse the AA proc?

[lilac stag]

You want energy sht stacks and combo points ready (depending on hero)

[open vortex]

Sorry for the ping again, but i was incorrect on my dance duration. when i pop trinket my dance duration should be 8.056 seconds like in this log and not 7.2 base or 7.6 when hearts procs. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tD6FQCxgLdXbpBhr?fight=last&type=auras&source=2&view=timeline could be missing something obvious again tho im p dumb. cause i dont even see my other trinket proc here. but this time i popped my trinket .328s before so even longer than the other two logs. and according to the tooltip it does update from 7.2 to 8 (but tooltips can be notoriously bad too)

[coral bear]

Or no I have higher chance losing dps by only using finisher/builder when I have 5stack of ST during my shadowdance

[coral bear]

1thanks man

Also wanted to know if this cheese was visual or if its normal, but im able to use 3 shadowdance before a pull, to start with 6 overcharged points before my opener

is it normal?

[uncut oriole]

So is the the apex optimization worth doing at all target counts using shadow strike now?

[shrewd sierra]

i was leveling sub cause last tier it was fun

holy fuck what did they do to subrogue

the poor thing

[frosty sinew]

you can use 1 shadowdance before pull to have 2 supercharged points any more will just reset to 2

[hazy breach]

But your dance duration is 8.056 in that log?

[coral bear]

For some reason my UI is displaying my entire bar blue, like if I couldpush it to more than 2

I guess its a visual bug then

[open vortex]

ye i meant that my dance duration in these two logs were not 8s

[hazy breach]

Ah ye

[open vortex]

ye i have trinky macrod to blade on one keybind and dancesectec on another

[hazy breach]

Ye im not sure, i wasnt having any issues when they werent macrod

But clearly you have some here

[lilac stag]

You can do that in open world. Encounters in raid reset it to 2. Starting a key reset as two.

[open vortex]

[astral axle]

@hazy breach thoughts on simulationships?

[vale pine]

whats simulationships

[spiral bloom]

people who give more attention to raidbots than their significant other? idk

[tight dove]

If she cant quicksim me i dont want her

[mossy spear]

looking like outlul is gonna be the specc huh

[hazy breach]

Not at all

[runic sinew]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[grand tapir]

i'm gonna stick with sub this season and that's after playin sin for all of DF and TWW

[lilac stag]

tell me you’ve not played rogue in 6 years without telling me

[soft summit]

You sure Sub rogue is dead in mythic? I mean... i'm absolutely cranking right now and I'm just an average dad gamer

[lilac stag]

M0 means shit

And congrats

[grand tapir]

it's gonna be fine in keys even post nerf, especially with sin getting no attention, it's so far behind right now

[dusty totem]

In terms of key timer the nerf was probably not that bad tbh

[lilac stag]

Assa isn’t far behind

[open vortex]

ya idk why, seems like the closest for me i can do between popping my trinket and dance to get the correct duration is atleast .255s. tried it in org vs silvermoon

not a huge deal but seems weird. maybe my fat panda arms or something

[light finch]

did any of you in beta got to Lightblinded Vanguard and knows if you can Cloak the Tyrs Wrath debuff ?

[lucid jackal]

The st patchwork wip sims say so though?

[lilac stag]

I’m sure Bear druid gonna be outdpsing assa.

[shrewd lantern]

are people just forgetting that sub simmed low on patchwerk

in mfo

[lucid jackal]

No flame but most ppl just dont fully grasp the game

[lilac stag]

People are just too dense to critically think about how dmg profiles matter

[plush roost]

Slightly different situation in how sub applies its damage now but yeah anyone who says sub is bad is XD

[lucid jackal]

Lowk its the worst rogue spec

[lilac stag]

confirmed tier

[plush roost]

🧢

[shrewd lantern]

i do love the

"we playing outlaw" every tier

[grand tapir]

this could be a skill issue on my end, but I played sin only for 6 seasons and I cannot do anything decent on 5 target compared to sub right now - it's not like the rotation is hard or anything it just sucks damage wise

[shrewd lantern]

as if outlaw doesnt sim high on paper

[hazy breach]

It doesnt even sim that high this time

[warm marlin]

i'm sure it will finally be the outlaw tier now that sub sims higher than it in st

[shrewd lantern]

every tier

[warm marlin]

that is surely a good sign for the pirate prospects

[lucid jackal]

Highest ST simming mfers when a 2nd target exists

[lilac stag]

So you’re struggling in content that likes big burst CDs with the rate at which something dies in near instant? Got it.

[plush roost]

Its cause theyre from the future and outlaw got 15% aura and 20% dispatch buff

[warm marlin]

this guy hasn't heard the unholy eviscerate in 2target tech

[grand tapir]

I"m just talking target dummies - there isn't any hard content available

[humble rover]

can ya link

[lilac stag]

When tf did the lfr of m+ become the gauge we use.

[plush roost]

Unholy doesnt have eviserate ?

:^)

[upper narwhal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

ive heard from very reliable sources (dk mains) that the spec 50% ahead of the median has received a deathblow 20% aura nerf and is now unplayable™ so it doesnt exist to me

[shrewd lantern]

i mean sin the last few seasons was

maybe rupture an off target for vw

and continue slamming main target for spatter

at least in raid

[plush roost]

Ye spatter kinda weakage and vv is so meh now

But its still fine it depends just how healthy adds actually are

[lucid jackal]

I am not joking I was talking to a DK in guild yesterday that said "Unholy DK needs to be 15% ahead to be viable in this raid"

DK players are legit out of this world

[lilac stag]

If the assa chads want to doom be my guest. You’ve got the best priority, and rather easy cd alignment that can go hard in execute range.

[heady garden]

meanwhile rwf guilds secretly prepping 8 dev evokers

[lilac stag]

Is being out of melee for all but one cast that difficult?

[fallow ingot]

!AA

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[plush roost]

Is dan on pally or dk

Sounds like a dan take

[lucid jackal]

LOLOL

It WASNT dan

[plush roost]

Shiieeet

[warm marlin]

our resident dk celebrated getting off light with only 20%

[lucid jackal]

I also heard from multiple DKs that "If Unholy gets a small nerf ull just play frost"

and now its "Dk is unplayable

Like literally pick a struggle

like the damn outlaw channel

[grand tapir]

i mean i'm not dooming, i'm just not playing it, the numbers do not make sense for m+ or any raid cleave - and to that end are we even going to get any play in RTWF at all? prob not

[mental kettle]

frost seems fine idk about sims tho

[lilac stag]

Revisit this in 2-3 weeks

[grand tapir]

fair enough

[warm marlin]

also is this patented guy ragebait or do you actually think this

[raven sail]

!φθθ

[spiral needle]

There's always gonna be room for 1 rogue in Mythic raid as long as atrophic correctly reduces raid damage

[raven sail]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[limpid sage]

[plush roost]

Guy would never.

[warm marlin]

i regret not raid testing and just getting 2ndhand experiences

but im expecting double sub

[spiral needle]

Outlaw's design makes it very difficult to ever be the go to raid spec, the harder bosses tend to have gimmicks that devalue it

[soft summit]

You guys are dooming looking at the spreadsheets... but in real world game play I feel like sub rogues are going to do very well... besides those that would do more dps than us.. like unholydk's, got massively nerfed. I'm sure once mythics and raids are out, Sub is going to climb to high A or S tier

[fallow ingot]

I'm maybe dump, but what is the benefice from doing SS while in lust with 5 or + ST stacks ?

[warm marlin]

there is no spreadsheet dooming rn, sub is the highest simming rogue spec

it's why i think its gonna be broken

[plush roost]

Alleria wasnt tested correct? I wonder if shes targettable during phase 1

[warm marlin]

normally its strong despite low expected st output because it has strengths that it can leverage very well in raid

[plush roost]

Seems very spreadcleavey otherwise

[warm marlin]

and now it's genuinely in the top half in patchwerk 5min, and didn't really lose its niches that make it categorically stronger than sims suggest

[spiral needle]

Sub got carried by being very bursty, no idea how burst across specs is nowadays though

[warm marlin]

hence why i think there will be 2 in rwf unless the fight styles are mega ass

[soft summit]

Really? Im reading raids are only going to take 1 rogue for the poison and that rogues are legit dead in mythics...

[warm marlin]

well keys rogue sucks we lost our only aoe stop and have dogwater group utility

[spiral needle]

2 rogues in RWF is pretty cope

[grand tapir]

zero chance of that

1 is a stretch

[warm marlin]

obviously mfo was an outlier but max said they would've played 3-4

if they had them

[spiral needle]

but maybe assassination gets an unhinged buff after heroic week and its funnel makes its OP on final boss for all we know

[soft summit]

didnt most classes lose their aoe control or they got nerfed... i think only shammys survived it

[warm marlin]

rogue was already a competitor for worst m+ group utility and now its one of 2 classes that doesn't have an aoe stop at all

and the other one (hunter) has lust

[spiral needle]

yea but MFO was completely random

the final 2 fights completely favoring bursty 90s CD class was very happenstance

[shrewd lantern]

why does it matter if it gets rwf play

[spiral needle]

sub no longer has insane 90s burst

[soft summit]

Thank god. Id rather high sustain with decent burst then insane burst followed by dog shit dps

[naive cedar]

I can't seem to find an answer to this. Are we supposed to craft weap with embellishment this week already?

[shrewd lantern]

also when has funnel mattered in raid

[lucid jackal]

Liiiiiiiiiiiiike

[warm marlin]

muh broodtwister

[shrewd lantern]

90% of the time people use it as a streamer buzzword

[grand tapir]

i find it fun to see my class in the race

[lucid jackal]

Lowkey I do

[spiral needle]

yea if you are 100% certain on dagger or 1-hand weapon spec

[shrewd lantern]

and never understand where its fr good

[lucid jackal]

it depends how much burst vs sustianed cleave matters for the adds

[supple verge]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[lucid jackal]

Or how much of an active role rogue actually needs to take

[finite crow]

we are crafting a weapon pre raid ye?

[lucid jackal]

Ik deathstlker crazy sims but I think its crazy ass larpngl

[limpid sage]

They do have insanely frontloaded burst every 20 seconds though

[shrewd lantern]

you play a melee

its a given you sometimes wont be seen in the top end

outside of warrior

but most warrior mains still complain

[warm marlin]

trickster is still like 106k

it's not too far ahead yet obv still apl stuff to be done

[spiral needle]

it's still not as bursty as it was pre-midnight though, but I also have no idea how it compares to other specs post midnight

[upbeat cradle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shrewd lantern]

the burst is still good

its just not a literal nuke

[limpid sage]

But you also don’t have to prep the nuke 12 sec in advance

[warm marlin]

idk m0s are a bad example but sub was absolutely obliterating even on 30s cleave

[spiral needle]

Gonna come down to how fast adds need to die, and how frequent they are

[warm marlin]

if they live exactly like 18s its maybe not great

but you make it to 2nd dance and all of a sudden its good again

[shrewd lantern]

Most of the time adds that need to die need to die fast

let's be real

[spiral needle]

Fair

just dont kill the adds on the second boss too fast...

[shrewd lantern]

so rare in raid you'll have adds that'll stay up for 30+ seconds

[alpine wraith]

you actually had 3 dances usually and that was why sub was blasting

[shrewd lantern]

unless one of those meme bosses

[alpine wraith]

you had normal sectech then dance then another sec tech dance

[warm marlin]

was discounting the obvious blades burst

[lucid jackal]

Ik it has a huge tier set but like bro, the specs st is so ass

[alpine wraith]

oh no even on normal pulls you still danced 3 times unless tank was chain pulling

[lucid jackal]

Maybe with trinket tier etc it all lines up properly but like

[alpine wraith]

you got 1 back in transit

[lucid jackal]

I was mega unimpressed by it's st in dungeons

[alpine wraith]

to dance twice again

[shrewd lantern]

how long is your dance with the haste from guidon

[alpine wraith]

8-9 secs

[warm marlin]

it wasn't fantastic i wont lie

but is any rogue spec good at that rn

[alpine wraith]

not really we are kinda mid

[warm marlin]

plus tier being strong plus getting buffed

[alpine wraith]

well the solution as alwasys is pull shit onto the boss

and that will be the strat anyway

[lucid jackal]

I think outlaw genuinely is, especially at just getting aoe mostly for free but I mean! Yeah

Rogue st kinda average ish rn

[shrewd lantern]

we look good if a boss dies right after blades

otherwise

uhhh

yeah

[limpid sage]

I feel it’s kinda like fury profile? Very competitive ST in M+ build, but kinda bad sustained AOE

[alpine wraith]

not really even if boss dies after blades

dh or dk were like 30k ahead anyway XD

now a bit diff but yea

[shrewd lantern]

what dungeon boss was it again

that had frequent add spawns

[void ocean]

which dk

[shrewd lantern]

that felt real good

[warm marlin]

big tree guy at end of blinding vale

[shrewd lantern]

oh last boss of blinding

yeh fun

[alpine wraith]

yea that one you can snipe

[warm marlin]

also jellyfish in magister's lined up pretty well

[alpine wraith]

but know something funny

[warm marlin]

hold cds for like 5s on pull and you burst triplicate

[alpine wraith]

go there with an arcane mage

[warm marlin]

also unironically i assume you weren't playing with power pots

which are obv gonna be bigger for sub

[shrewd lantern]

[lucid jackal]

I was on outlaw idk if shindig was on sub

[fallow ingot]

!AA

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[shrewd lantern]

the sim is telling me to use the damage proc trinket from blinding vale

over emberwing

i assume the phys damage is buffed by fw

[patent iris]

So afaik sub is currently best spec of rogue ?

[alpine wraith]

it is quite decent but more tuning could come

[chrome palm]

Top 3 for sure

[shrewd lantern]

but i need to know for my heroic week 1 logs

!

actually is m+ even open this week

[lucid jackal]

genuinely until mythic week its hard to tell what rogue spec is good

[alpine wraith]

no only m0

[shrewd lantern]

ok

[alpine wraith]

but with champ gear

[lucid jackal]

Its really gonna depend on encounter design

[warm marlin]

idk we weren't playing with good specs and had rat alts in there but i was doing 40-45k st on every fight with cheat gear

[shrewd lantern]

so i dont have to basement dwell as hard

[vale pine]

it does not matter much

before mythic

[chrome palm]

We still have another tuning wave before mythic

[warm marlin]

for 1m-1m30s fights

[vale pine]

simply because there will be another tuning change

[shrewd lantern]

at least we wont random take a nerf heroic week

like outlaw did at nerubar

[chrome palm]

We just did

[alpine wraith]

we could still take another nerf

who knows

[fallow ingot]

@vale pine with !AA summary, this should have been SS *2 no ?

[chrome palm]

Idk I think as rogue for raid

[warm marlin]

no it procced aa both times

[mortal skiff]

would you guys still stick to sub if it gets nerfed another time? :D

[alpine wraith]

yea sure

[chrome palm]

Youre mostly hoping that there isn’t some insane class stack worthy ranged dps

That eats your atro spot

On certain fights

[shrewd lantern]

thats the case for rogue always

since we're the only melee without a "needed" raid buff

[frozen sphinx]

Stupid question but does snd cast automatically like it does on Assass or do you have to press it at least once on sub lol 😂

[fallow bramble]

my spot?

[shrewd lantern]

its also why anyone saying survival is coping hard as shi

gl being in melee as hunter

[alpine wraith]

you get it from evis

[vale pine]

what do i look at?

[limpid sage]

Imagine tww s3 sub rogue here…

[vale pine]

which apl/sim

[frozen sphinx]

Oh word thanks!

[fallow ingot]

APL from quick sim raidbots

[warm marlin]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-walk-gif-5643038591013063987

[limpid sage]

https://tenor.com/view/npc-behavior-be-like-gif-10607292567092564523

[vale pine]

we haven't pushed the apl changes to default

thats why

[fallow ingot]

Ah

[shrewd lantern]

i wish we got double coup

as a talent

[mortal skiff]

5% raidwide evasion buff inc

[spiral needle]

on one hand, double coup burst was sexy, on the other...not using evis for 10-20s before CDs was less so

[chrome palm]

Best we can do is the part of the tier set no one liked

[fallow ingot]

any sim that support the new apl ? like nightly weekly or Lastest ?

[warm marlin]

yeah but imagine how hard tww2 set would go with all our new shadow damage

[chrome palm]

Bingus

You know well you would literally afk outside of dance if we had s2 set

That would be awful

[warm marlin]

I get a sick enjoyment from afking

[vale pine]

if its not pushed to simc, you need to manually put the change in

[warm marlin]

im sorry

[fallow ingot]

kk i will wait then, any idea when this will be changed ?

[vale pine]

so custom apl

[warm marlin]

you don't want double coup back anyway with nerfed flawless form

also would mean getting more haste ick

[vale pine]

we need to wait for some changes to a buff as the custom apl crashes without certain items equipped

so soon™

[lucid jackal]

but yeah like, half joking half serious @warm marlin I genuinely think more so than any other tier, I have no fucking idea what spec is actually good rn

[chrome palm]

Yeah without cdr or ff there’s no point

[vale pine]

subtlety ofc

[chrome palm]

Low key best looking outlaw tier in recent memory

[spiral needle]

it's gonna be sin after heroic week buffs

[lucid jackal]

If burst good, Sub
If cleave good, Sin/Otl
If execute good, Sin

depends what rogues role in the raid is on mythic yk

[warm marlin]

i still think it's reliant on tuning

[spiral needle]

problem is we don't know what final boss needs

[chrome palm]

A lot of non rogue players keep saying sub will be the pick for raid

[lucid jackal]

There have been good outlaw tiers, but rogues job isn't to "cleave shit"

[vale pine]

it absolutely is

[lucid jackal]

So u just play no aoe sub or sin yk

[chrome palm]

I don’t think they understand sub isn’t the same as tww

[shrewd sierra]

ive got insider info on what liquid's comp gonna be

[lucid jackal]

Well duh but like, sims are fake

and the raid is real

and the raid isnt out yet so fuck if I know

[shrewd sierra]

15 subs

[dry flame]

the other raiders on trial accounts?

[chrome palm]

I think it’s more that sub isn’t as oppressively better than outlaw

[spiral needle]

sub has the most burst, and raid fights almost always favor burst

not hard to speculate

[warm marlin]

i more meant from my testing the other 2 are tuned a bit weak for their respective niches to leverage them properly

[vale pine]

subtlety also got nerfed to perform worse in cleave/aoe

which does not help the choice

[lucid jackal]

Excellent insight

[warm marlin]

outlaw low target cleave is massively nerfed compare to PC days

[shrewd sierra]

1 tank, 4 healers for the buff (shaman, druid, priest, evoker)

[chrome palm]

I don’t even think any rogue is particularly good at low cleave

[lucid jackal]

Sure but subs burst is also massively nerfed from TWW days

Goes both ways

[dry flame]

i was making a subscription joke 🙂

[lucid jackal]

The strength still exists

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

on 90s, regular dances are even stronger

depends on whats good

[spiral needle]

is outlaw still a pretty flat damage profile with inconsistent CD timings

[shrewd sierra]

ah, your name checks out

[vale pine]

ye, burst is kinda okay

[chrome palm]

Check other classes

It’s probably below average tbh

[vale pine]

its not outlaw "burst"

[chrome palm]

Like if you want burst it’s not coming from your rogue

[warm marlin]

ye agreed

[chrome palm]

It’s coming from mm or uh or arcane or ww or any other class but rogue

Exaggeration for legal purposes ^^

[hushed roost]

are you guys actually gonna play outlaw or just walk into heroic as sub per usual

[vale pine]

doesen't this make the nerf to sub even worse

like sure guy thinks its reasonable

[lucid jackal]

I will play Outlaw cuz i genuinely dont know what spec to play

[spiral needle]

outlaw will always have lifelong fans

it's a fun spec to play

[vale pine]

but if we look at rogue as a class, it means we are less competitive?

[limpid sage]

Almost as flat as Denmark holy

[chrome palm]

in the raid which is all about cleave, rogue does not look good imo

sub also loses st damage from holding cds now

[warm marlin]

ya this is probably gonna be bigtime cringe

[lucid jackal]

This is actually a pretty big factor as well

[chrome palm]

and you now have 8% fazed punishing you for target swap on your sectech

[alpine wraith]

also i need all NA peeps on tuesday awake

[lucid jackal]

Like, sub can't really hold damage like it used to

[alpine wraith]

to check if there is any clone krangle going on

[lucid jackal]

If adds dont line up ur throwing away a lot of ST

[chrome palm]

yeah if you hold cds to hit the adds now your boss damage is gonna go out the window

also like vorasius

i havent even checked but like

[alpine wraith]

you can actually send sec techs natty and save dance if it is not too long

[warm marlin]

this has got to be due to sim naturally having a little different dance cadence between iterations

[chrome palm]

does sectech hit the boss if you hit adds with it?

[limpid sage]

Sub has like 10 seconds of holding between every sblades now

[vale pine]

subtlety has fast cooldown cycles tho

keep that in mind

[narrow shadow]

Does the stat spread remain the same after the nerf to BP benefit from mastery?

[alpine wraith]

yea mastery still good on cleave/aoe

[hazy breach]

Ye but even the highest peak on pull is quite mid

[chrome palm]

how many seconds does an add need to live for outlaw to do more damage than 1 dance

[fallow ingot]

is !AA for lust only right ?

[coral bear]

is there a vid of someone doing the rotation over like 2-5minute? i wanna see how someone adapts to the random fluctuation of shadow techniques when its randomly at 4, and jumps at 6 during shadow dance

[alpine wraith]

yea we are not burst beasts but do get up there

[chrome palm]

and in many cases it seems like

its kill 1 add -> move to kill the other add

[alpine wraith]

im actually making that one tomorrow likely with the full guide too

[chrome palm]

sub has to choose

[vale pine]

no, its a new, updated one with slightly higher impact

[chrome palm]

which thing to blow up

[fallow ingot]

Oh okay nice

so bascily we need to consume supercharged CP with AA proc

[alpine wraith]

a cool thing i found is maybe on some bosses double haste on use might be a thing

[vale pine]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[alpine wraith]

yo be able to get 2 dances+sec techs on some add spawns or before boss phases

[limpid sage]

Don’t overcomplicate it imo. You’re losing more sweating over AA than just going by intuition

[alpine wraith]

but need to see which of the other haste ones is good

[chrome palm]

i think sub only looks good for like 3 bosses

[vale pine]

i think the aoe/cleave nerf

made it harder for us

[warm marlin]

i'm probably pooling a little excessively while getting a feel for it but your dances are very very strong

obv no on use

[alpine wraith]

or maybe we do a mix of puzzlebox+guidon

and use puzzle on adds and guidon on st

[chrome palm]

if the mid tier wall is lightblinded

GG

[alpine wraith]

i mean if we have another stix or sprocket situation

[spiral needle]

could wind up being sin fight though

[alpine wraith]

and no bandit we might see some big bench situation

[hot seal]

There will be another balance patch the 25th

[chrome palm]

what is sprocket situation

[alpine wraith]

but i believe last bosses will have cleave

[hot seal]

Should be chill

[alpine wraith]

rogue st was mid and atro didnt work on lots of things so many guilds sat rogues but of course not all

[rain stratus]

Balance patch doesnt change our damage profile

[chrome palm]

this is the first im hearing of that

[alpine wraith]

it does change our usefulness

we used to have quite important burst+cleave vs other specs

[warm marlin]

like the only way you can tell where blades is is because the peak lasts longer cooldown is so bad (obv no tier/on use)

[alpine wraith]

not it is well up there

[spiral needle]

i thought it was the ball boss they did that for

[alpine wraith]

yea that is why 2 on uses is a cool thing we might play around

we get so many cps blades is ahaha

[chrome palm]

they gotta rework this spec soon man, blades, secret technique, and dance all need a lot of scrutiny

blades is just a nothing cd

[limpid sage]

Wasn’t it stix where rogue was benched?

Or was it both

[alpine wraith]

think sprocket was not super bench situation

but if you had the opportunity you could

[spiral needle]

blades, the 90s CD that is actually a 100s CD?

[alpine wraith]

as always remember wow is not omegaminmaxed because you also need gear from some bosses

[spiral needle]

good design

[plush roost]

Hello gamers i am from the future, worry not, spatter to 45%

Assa tier

Ty for your time

[alpine wraith]

we get hollow toxin in s2 back

shadowstrike tier

[spice matrix]

Sin tier

[limpid sage]

Are they bringing back rupture

For sub

[daring pike]

https://tenor.com/view/mods-oil-mods-oil-him-up-gif-3487213785955747081

[plush roost]

No they actually took away eviserate because we werent powdering enough

Unlucky

[limpid sage]

Honestly sounds like something they would do

[north iron]

Does having a 2.6 speed OH matter with sub

[warm marlin]

yes not having a dagger is illegal

[short radish]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[cerulean mirage]

so after the nerfs to shadow bomb , is sub a good pick for m+ ?

[stoic pier]

Hey guys, QQ is it alright to spend the adventurer/veteran crests? Is there any reason to keep them for the Season ?

[alpine wraith]

no reason to keep

just blast them away to get some free champ upgrades next week

[hazy light]

If you follow the guide, you should use your veterans for crafting 2 embellishment items if you raid patch day.

[alpine wraith]

so maybe do some m0 would tours

or craft weakest spot

[stoic pier]

Im sorry, but what guide?

[hazy light]

laria's raiders guide

[stoic pier]

Oh yeah, I followed this one last season, great, I'll take a look

[hazy breach]

Yeah dance is a strong low cd, but our big CD is quite mid compared to other classes now

[warm marlin]

bring back flag

[rain stratus]

Does the guide not say to craft dagger without crests and then upgrade with myth crests later?

[hazy breach]

I think they should literally cut sht generation in half or something ngl. So the combo points from blades start mattering

[hazy light]

First Craft: A 1h weapon with an embellishment. You should craft it now for a boost going into N/H week then recraft it with Myth Crests on the 24/25th. If you do this, you only need to hold 80 Veteran Crests. Fury warriors, craft when you get 4 sparks. Easy choice because you'll throw these in your offhand once you get another mythic weapon.

Second Craft: Whatever your class discord and simming recommend.

[shrewd lantern]

yeah because its one item

the second

[warm marlin]

i would personally prefer if blades didn't give cp and was just a bigger amp

or make it spawn double clones or something

[frail kindle]

but why not

dont you want classes that lose the least st to cleave

[warm marlin]

convert all damage to shadow and buff shadow damage by 50%

[frail kindle]

hasnt outlaw historically been pretty good at that

[warm marlin]

clones strike twice during blades

[frail kindle]

like the op cleave specs are old frost dk when you just naturally cleaved everything down during breath

[hazy breach]

Idk im just not a fan of literally overcapping sht stacks

Because its impossible to spend them fast enough

[warm marlin]

all my experience is in 600-700 haste range without windfury and sht is certainly plentiful

striking twice to finish in dance always felt really bad though

[stuck arrow]

Eh, idk, I kind of liked the 2x strike. But that's maybe just me.

[warm marlin]

you could legit oom yourself since 2 strikes in a row is so energy costly

[hazy breach]

Yeah obviously if you gut sht you would need to improve energy regen or lower the cost

[warm marlin]

i would cheat and finish on 5 most of the time instead

[shrewd lantern]

wont you still need to strike

assuming you go into dance with 7pts you’d dance sectech strike twice into evis right

to trigger aa

[hazy breach]

Idk sht is just overly complicated for no reason imo

[shrewd lantern]

oh wait

[warm marlin]

if they gut sht?

[shrewd lantern]

sht is way too high rn in dance

feels weird

[hazy breach]

Why is it every 3.5 hits with a stacked deck system instead of something straightforward like every 4th auto

[stuck arrow]

I just did a m0 world tour without potent powder to help gear a friend's alt - I think Sub be perfectly fine with the AOE nerfs.

[shrewd lantern]

i mistyped that earlier

the first strike should trigger aa right

if you had sht going in

[warm marlin]

if you have like 1-2 sht prepooled

[stuck arrow]

Imo - give ShT back the group wide 5% crit buff it used to have when it was Honor Among Thieves. 😉

[shrewd lantern]

you only need 1-2 pts?

[lucid jackal]

lets say hypothetically speaking, an add spawns with 1m HP and it needs to die over 10 seconds or whatever

Lets say there is a DPS spec that does literally exactly that, 1m HP, over 10 seconds, it lines up perfectly with the way they want to play, they dont lost anything for it, etc

Why would you assign ADDITIONAL people to deal with this 1m HP mob

[rain stratus]

Its just bad design when it is impactful to hit a builder on full cp's if three conditions are met, instead of a finisher.

[warm marlin]

I like the apex optimization because it's the only thing the spec still has that isn't build spending

[plush roost]

So i can pad? Duh?

[shrewd lantern]

i guess its generally good to go into dances at full combo pts?

[plush roost]

Ds likes low trickster full

[stuck arrow]

And so you can snipe that guys DPS on the meters.

It's like healing parses.

[hazy breach]

Likewise i think its bad design if you couldnt do it. Because then you can get "stuck" in scenarios without it up but on full cp

[warm marlin]

i think 1 will usually trigger it

[hazy breach]

Like Darkest Night does so much damage you always want it Apex'd (during dance)

[warm marlin]

like sectec gives 2 before your strike always, so you just need to proc once

[shrewd lantern]

ds oh god

[warm marlin]

since with shadowcraft you get 2 from one proc

[shrewd lantern]

pls no

[plush roost]

Awarege EVERYTHING IS PATCHWERK

[warm marlin]

ds still ahead on 2 targets btw

like a certain paladin boss

[patent iris]

So is our stat prio still haste to bout 18% then into crit and mastery?

[warm marlin]

where your mark will bug if you ever mess up

[plush roost]

Is ds ahead vs outlaw tho HMM

[shrewd lantern]

why does ds go in low

ik trickster its to instant sectech

[warm marlin]

if you can provide me with an outlaw 2target sim with proper talents i can tell you

on a patchwerk sim basis

[plush roost]

I quite literally am so clueless about simming i really should learn apl stuff a bit

[tribal herald]

do you guys add macro to secret technique to always fire shadow blades and shadow dance?

[frail kindle]

doesnt outlaw kinda fit that description though? you lose like nothing to cleave

[warm marlin]

i mean realistically are you gonna play ds on paladins

you can hard brick your entire fight

[plush roost]

Maybe the timer works out perfectly

[hazy breach]

Realistically are you gonna play sub on paladins

[shrewd lantern]

also someone confirm for me

pre disorient still exists

right

[warm marlin]

Realistically does it matter if outlaw/sub sim close on paladins since you won't have an outlaw sword at decent ilvl anyway

[hazy breach]

Yes but it does not matter nearly as much

[plush roost]

Wouldnt you just mark the paladin the came in most recently and switch when the next pal comes in, or is it random?

[warm marlin]

idk blud i didn't raid test it

[hazy breach]

Idk surely assa is good?

[plush roost]

I imagine it would be a pattern so just learn the pattern and put mark on the paladin that wont leave

[fiery fog]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush roost]

Assa 2 target follow the blood gaming smile

[shrewd lantern]

what is there to do on assa now

with shiv gone

[patent iris]

Cry.

[shell willow]

Sin likely is the play for paladins.

[plush roost]

Mut envemom

[warm marlin]

from the sounds of it I may be advocating to play bench instead

[plush roost]

That fight cranks damage

Probably required rogue

1 token yellow class

!

[shrewd lantern]

does it drop anything

[still gazelle]

Does Sub cleave purely through Black Powder?

And nimble flurry or whatever

[warm marlin]

wait that ring is goated

[patent iris]

And through trickster

[warm marlin]

nvm get me in there bless up atro

[plush roost]

Bro i cant believe there are 3 insane haste mast jewelry in this raid

I cant hold all this haste!?!

[patent iris]

But memes aside

How many haste we need?

[rain stratus]

many enough

[plush roost]

678-700 is gud for trickster

587 is fine for DS

[shrewd lantern]

go human and require less

[hearty radish]

though 700 translates into the 18% everyone is talking baout ?

[shrewd lantern]

obviously

[hearty radish]

blue man bad

[shrewd lantern]

go by raw value not %

[hazy breach]

Roughly yes

[warm marlin]

ignore % haste is a weird stat

[plush roost]

Dances dont care about %

[shrewd lantern]

also it’d be weird with races that get a flat 1% haste

[stuck arrow]

So what's the reason for DS being better now ST, they bug fix?

[alpine wraith]

buff to evis and strike

[woven ruin]

theres only 1 st boss in the raid right

[hearty radish]

so in single target in m+ i see im lacking doing more dmg then other classes while i do ma rotation roughly right (besides the first 20 sec where i dump ton of dmg) you guys have the same or im doing something wrong

i feel like i use these 2-3 dances and then im ussles till next one while other ppl dump huge amounts of dmg constantly

[plush roost]

A part of the hero talent wasnt in sims

[hearty radish]

having 700 haste fixes this downtime issue

?

[hazy breach]

But also strike does more damage as deathstalker

[rain stratus]

I mean my bosses die in roughly 20sec atm, so its finte here

[hazy breach]

Nop

Thats just how the spec plays

[keen plaza]

Normal, many specs do tickle damage outside CDs right now. Be thankful dance is short cd

[hearty radish]

yes but i plan on raiding next week and idk how to prepare for it

[stuck arrow]

DS still bug out though? Or it fixed?

[lucid jackal]

bro trying to play deathstalker sin on the DH boss was legit the most larp thing I ever did

[hearty radish]

its CD scales with hase right ?

[lucid jackal]

I did like 20 pulls of that and said fuck that I'm just playing sub

[warm marlin]

yeah that was cooked

trickster sub did infinite on that fight anyway

just had to play cds a bit weird

[hazy breach]

No

The duration sclaes with haste

[hearty radish]

oh i see

[plush roost]

Playing ds sin in twws3

[hearty radish]

So if i have this trinket then to increase the duration i need to use trinket and then dance right ? if i use during dance it wont increase ?

[hazy breach]

Correct

[hearty radish]

and i want to use second charge right after or there is like some strat to wait out

[warm marlin]

ahh this is gonna be good once everyone gets guidon

[warm marlin]

with a 15s on use haste trinket you want to snapshot dance duration by dancing during the final second of the haste buff

which you ofc can't track except in your buff bar at the top right of your screen

actually emberwing might not give enough haste at low ilvl

[west tide]

bro a lot of people dont get that

this is why im pogged out when they buff my st crazy style

[stuck arrow]

I think you'd be able to time that buff in arcui, no?

Cast bar with a timer?

[west tide]

im here for 1 reason usualyl theres a goddam mage to do that job

[hearty radish]

i ment if i use second charge of dance right after first one or there is some strat to not burn 2 charges imminently

[hearty radish]

when i use it i have 44% haste

while also having 44% mastery (coz i have most mastery now, unlucky on m0)

[warm marlin]

im gonna say just play it like normal but with a high ilvl guidon you want to hold your second charge of dance until the trinket buff is about to run out

[warm marlin]

idk maybe but it's not a buff in cdm so it might be private

you could track trinket cd and press when it's about 15s below max

[hearty radish]

ah right this way, it makes sense i guess

[stuck arrow]

I think you can make an icon last for a certain length of time after an event, say a cast of a trinket slot.

Would be scuffed if you had a couple different trinket sets and stuff, but yeah.

[shrewd lantern]

ngl emberwing simmed worse than blinding vale dmg proc trinket

the one that summons a lasher

[lost sundial]

With the upcoming tuning to potential powder will we be defaulting to weapon master for more content?

[stuck arrow]

Sims higher for me too.

[shrewd lantern]

in raid maybe

no shot you dont take potent powder in keys

or heavier aoe

[warm marlin]

potent powder is still a ridiculously strong talent

[chrome tide]

What is the current rule on using Shuriken Storm over Shadowstrike inside of Dance? Is it always Shuriken Storm with two or more targets or do you need more?

[warm marlin]

outside dance: storm at 2+
inside dance: storm at 3+, strike at 1-2

[chrome tide]

Good deal. Thanks

[hazy breach]

probably changing to strike at 1-3 in dance next reset

[shrewd lantern]

wasnt storm at 2+ outside dance

the rule since legion

[pastel grove]

How was our tubing overall? Sub 5%?

Tuning

[stuck arrow]

It's in pins

[pastel grove]

So death stalker may take over?

[warm marlin]

in pure patchwerk st