subtlety

[shrewd lantern]

i havent caught up with if aldrachi is still good

[keen galleon]

Is assa still cheeks for m+ ? Or actually half decent now

[regal current]

aldratchi got buffed

so

[valid spade]

sub changes look bad ?

[regal current]

it might be

[shrewd lantern]

though you play devourer in keys

[regal current]

assa still cheeks

[fleet wharf]

I heard charrend or prophet or one of the guys say it got taken out back and shot

[shrewd lantern]

more likely than not

[keen galleon]

Fair sub it is then

[regal current]

this is still only the first tuning pass

theres 4? more

[fleet wharf]

no, next tuning happens with launch of next expansion

this is all you get

[keen galleon]

Thought - more

1

[regal current]

they said they wanna watch the next 4 weeks

and tune as it goes

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk people suddenly talk utility of a meta spec

[keen galleon]

24th isn’t it

[shrewd lantern]

when its hard gaping other classes

on the meter

[keen galleon]

Ah okay

[shrewd lantern]

[regal current]

dk deserved the nerf so bad

it was like 30% above the next guy

[shrewd lantern]

real

but comical they have to nerf a spec 20%

someone thought that was ok to push live

[fleet wharf]

I do agree with raw dps # being king, but if they're even ish i do feel there's a small consideration/argument to be made for util

[regal current]

and boomchickens sandbagged so hard

someone post the tettles picture

[shrewd lantern]

by util you meant some seasons

whoever buffed mages

the most

[fleet wharf]

they have everything, mages are just the MC

[shrewd lantern]

lets not forget the seasons where every class in the meta comp

just buffed mage damage

LOL

my utility is givin the mage PI

[regal current]

venge, resto(druid), shadow priest, fire mage, augvoker

woooooooooooooo

[fleet wharf]

thats like s2 or 3 of df?

[regal current]

s3

[shrewd lantern]

yeah people can talk vdh stops all they want

but brand is brand

[regal current]

just happy bear got nerfed

voidstorm will be so much nicer on tuesday

[shrewd lantern]

also the seasons where priest healer was meta

purely due to PI

i mean if bear didnt get nerfed

would have been 4 bear meta

[shadow snow]

There are no bigger crybabies than boomies

[fleet wharf]

who?

ret?

[shadow snow]

Who cares about those laser chickens

[regal current]

no ret arent crybabies

theyre drama queens

different type of evil

[fleet wharf]

uh... huh...

[regal current]

rogues are doomers, warriors are punching bags

[rain bluff]

anybody know how far behind is deathstalker in st and aoe ? I just read that it's damage is lower than trickster

[regal current]

mages are the teachers pet

[shadow snow]

Boomies will go on a rant how they are worse than mage, but they dont see how they are better than everybody else

[fleet wharf]

mark management is annoying. unless you hateyourself I would recommend against it, but we're both here playing rogue

[regal current]

bro permanent tricks is too good

[shrewd lantern]

i mean boomies take advice from a guy i'd see below the tank

every time i open stream

[regal current]

i love suggesting extra packs to pull to the tank

with tricks of the trade

[shrewd lantern]

i like when the tank dies in priory

and i see the mobs

run to the entrance

i mean the real seller of trickster

is no parry

[tribal blade]

it seems really good until you realize it doesn't actually add much benefit

that matters

[shrewd lantern]

well you cant

your clones are a bit dumb

[fleet wharf]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bleak night]

It comfy

[tribal blade]

yeah it's nice

i was massively hyped about it in TWW beta and thought it would break M+

but it ended up being basically nothing haha

[bleak night]

Its like making sure your feet are under the blanket so the monsters can't drag you to hell

[tribal blade]

the main good thing is not needing to click it in the middle of/between pulls

[regal current]

dont have to click it, just hit it and forget

[tame terrace]

it makes me forget when im not plahing trickster that i dont have it up all the time

[regal current]

and then forget to rebuff it and die cuz you're bringing the tank some friends

[blazing night]

I went ahead and added npcIDs to this sheet, which should help people implement cast bar colors in Plater without doing it one by one. I'll work on doing a real guide at some point, but this information might be useful for any of you right now. (again, this is based on my read on spells/abilities/M+ in preseason, cross-referenced against Tactyks's spreadsheet for accuracy). Use as you see fit! 🙂

[shrewd lantern]

wait you guys tricks the tank?

and not just the other melee?

[regal current]

i pick the boomkin then hunter, then tank

in that order

[shrewd lantern]

pick dev evokers

[short radish]

no. dev evokers are the good guys

[regal current]

people still play evokers?

[short radish]

because theyre not aug

[shrewd lantern]

lmao does aug even get your threat

[short radish]

dev evokers = hard working individuals of society, who works for their damage
aug evokers = thieves who have to steal other peoples damage in order to do their own

augvokers probably also kick animals or something idk

[shrewd lantern]

blizz fun police removed my ability

to macro cancelaura of aug buffs

[short radish]

i like to think they do

[shrewd lantern]

from all my abilities

[short radish]

based

taxation is theft and so is ebon might

[tame terrace]

evokers occupy the same low population % as us, we need that class gone so we can claim the lowest pop class definitively

[bleak night]

Unironically evoker pop might spike after they add in that battle visage form shit

We could have our spot back uncontested

[noble shale]

any reason to be taking silent storm for single target? noticed the raid build has it

[wheat cloak]

Anyone else want the old nimble flurry back? I dont like pressing BP every aoe pack it feels so much worse than evis

[tame terrace]

nah, cleave shouldnt be on every spec

[short radish]

yeah i enjoy going mongo bongo black powder

[dim stream]

so outlaw is better now? or sub? m+

[short radish]

dunno. m+ isn't out yet

[hollow spear]

It's safer to just delete your rogue(s) and (still) play uhdk

[torn tide]

is that an overall buff or nerf to us?

[hollow spear]

Dude

[short radish]

true. uhdk nerf'd from god tier to S tier

[short radish]

[torn tide]

thanks

[bleak night]

Np

[hollow spear]

Posting a 3 meter long phone screenshot

[short radish]

no wukkas

[hollow spear]

I'm glad they didn't touch sectec

[torn tide]

my bad lol, thats just all the sub changes

[cloud perch]

why is gloomblade so bad

[robust light]

the icon doesnt look cool so it sucks

[hollow spear]

They were posted roughly 20 times since they released them is the problem

[torn tide]

oh fuk

[cloud perch]

i like it

[hollow spear]

I like gloomblade, but the damage just doesn't really matter

[torn tide]

hmm 15% nerf to aoe for big aoe is sad

[shrewd lantern]

heres a crazy hack

change the icon of backstab to gloomblade

[cloud perch]

whats wrong with buttplgs

[shrewd lantern]

free talent swap

[robust light]

nothin just funny lookin

[keen dome]

I am sad at losing big AoE but also eh, I expected something like that.

More ST is nice.

[robust light]

i was worried abt single target goin into midnight so the fact its buffed is nice

[torn tide]

true, the st was underwhelming

[keen dome]

I'll miss comedy AoE though.

[robust light]

fok bp fok bp fok bp (no i will not abbrievate shuriken storm)

[plush crescent]

was our aoe that crazy we needed a 10% nerf to it?

[keen dome]

Blizz seems to think so. Our AoE was pretty big, though.

But 6% to ST is nice.

[plush crescent]

ok sweet

[vale osprey]

Blizzard doing the good ole "one of our staff members was in an m0 key with a rogue who already crafted 259 mainhand and he was gapping my damage hard by just pressing black powder!!!!!!" into nerf

[short radish]

yeah it's gonna be great when packs last longer than 10 seconds

and we then average out to doing 0 dps

[keen dome]

the sub way

[hollow spear]

One storm every four seconds

70% haste optimal

[lilac stag]

You’re gonna really enjoy then

[keen dome]

NO

well

it is purple

[fallow ingot]

Is the sim on simulation craft up to date ? Or we need todo 95k7 * 1.06 ?

[keen dome]

So that's a positive (the only positive)

[young harness]

do we press shadow dance before shadow blades in opener? or blades first

[keen steppe]

I was that rogue sorry

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[short radish]

oh it's not in the macro anymore

uhhhh

doesnt matter

but i put sblades first

because it's bigger

and i have other sdance binds

[fleet wharf]

Wait, but don't you need to press trinks before SD or is the length of the SD dynamically adjusted?

I feel they wouldn't cut SD short if you lose haste midway through

[balmy gate]

Soo we are again dead for m+ ? Reroll again ? I was so Happy to Main rogue haha but No invites are Not fun

[keen dome]

I don't think it's possible to tell but if you want to reroll on a single tuning pass then go for it. Sub is always going to struggle (as will Rogue as a whole) because we don't bring utility to M+ scenarios.

[short radish]

yeah reroll

[fleet wharf]

honestly unless you're meta, you're not getting insta invites anyway, that's not just a rogue problem

though being rogue really doesn't help either

[keen dome]

There's a secret technique though.

[short radish]

if you were looking forward to invites

[robust light]

it hurts more with no aoe blind

[short radish]

as a rogue youre in the wrong place

[robust light]

like what are we bringing to keyss

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

[keen dome]

Only the greatest Rogues know the special move.

Host your own keystone and then you are always in the group.

[fleet wharf]

let's be fair, all playerse want from dps in M+ is DPS.

just pray that we're so overtuned the optimal spec is 3 outlaw rogues like we had it one time way back when

[torn tide]

ba dum tss

[keen dome]

In a pug situation, who the fuck knows what people want most of the time in M+. It'll be whatever weird concept they've built up in their head a lot of the time until you get to higher levels.

[balmy gate]

Yeah high dps Not that what rogue will bring

[keen dome]

The guy trying to meta pick in a +3, sitting there for 2 hours trying to invite the most ideal classes possible.

I would simply suggest playing a class you enjoy and not meta chasing / chasing a class that will get invited.

[torn tide]

ive been in a party with a dude that only invited classes that were on the top tiers of tierlists

crazy work

[fleet wharf]

I mean iGestalt is right, just host your own key. trying to get reliably invited by rando pugs is kind of crazy goal to aim for

[frank lotus]

If you wanna do really high keys just start off playing something you find fun and then swap to something meta when it becomes clear what is meta

[keen dome]

Also good advice, ye. Meta won't really be formed for quite a while.

Playing what you enjoy really well, making friends, etc. Way more use of time than just rerolling to whatever might be good at that moment.

[balmy gate]

Yeah rogue was a fun 2 weeks haha now its time for Meta rogue dead

[torn tide]

i kinda find it crazy that rogue has a whole list of bs for tunings and dev dh is just "all damage reduced by 4%"

[frank lotus]

You realistically won't pug yourself to title on non-meta class

[fleet wharf]

you do know they JUST released that class and want it to be strong?\

[wanton oasis]

What is the net loss in AOE?

[keen dome]

Check the pins.

[torn tide]

true but its a little much isnt it, they just build collapsing star and just blast shit to oblivion

[fleet wharf]

True, but ppl will still fuck it up

not like we got muchg to talk about when it comes complexity any more lmao

ss into evisc or sectech if it's up

[keen dome]

People will mess the most simple thing up. Never underestimate the power of people.

[vale osprey]

If they're in a class discord whinging saying stuff like "2 weeks fun now for meta rogue dead" they definitely weren't

[fleet wharf]

i mean if you go outside and talk it's uhh...

[hallow matrix]

Does the tuning change our apex usage? Shindigs video says it’s only really used in 3 or less targets with lust. Not sure if we should play around this anymore

(Striking on max CP)

With 5+ SHT

[fleet wharf]

wrap it up guys, it's over

it's all over

[lilac stag]

It’s not in the macro because you need it separate. Sblades plus trinket to get the extra haste to snapshot for dance. Can’t do an all in one.

[keen dome]

I work in a public service, so uh, lmao

[fleet wharf]

so we do need to press blades+trink before dances?

[keen dome]

"You need your library card to take a book out"
But do I???

[short radish]

woooo on use

i assume you cant do
/cast sblade
/cast 13
/cast sdance

[lilac stag]

No

[short radish]

because the trinket doesnt take effect in time

wooooo blizzard

[lilac stag]

Because they’re off gcd

[wanton oasis]

Oof 10% in AOE. Seems a bit heavy handed, but what else is new.

[fleet wharf]

hmm is it always this bad right after patch note drops?

[lilac stag]

Don’t ask questions you don’t really want the answer to

[wanton oasis]

The airborne irritant “fix” is what really takes the cake lately tho.

[lilac stag]

No. just more people trying sub out than usual

majority of us know the drill

[spiral needle]

panic and reroll ?

[keen dome]

Ye, a lot more people playing Sub atm and a lot of them will roll off the best purple spec because they're cowards who fear the numbers.

I don't fear the numbers. I simply choose to not understand them.

[lilac stag]

next up deathstalker bis sim

[wanton oasis]

How are other specs performing? Haven’t even touched em (or seen em).

[short radish]

i've heard the rumors and am dreading them

[fleet wharf]

did you see them on the notes?

[keen dome]

okay let's not get crazy

[gilded vortex]

where even can i see patch notes lol

[lilac stag]

No purple transmog for you if I’m right. Deal?

[fleet wharf]

https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/us/class-tuning-incoming-march-17-2271691

[wanton oasis]

Other specs still energy starved?

[keen dome]

Multiple places, but: https://www.wowhead.com/news/class-tuning-incoming-incoming-for-season-1-on-march-17-380784?utm_source=discord-webhook

[gilded vortex]

ty sir

[keen dome]

damn, kela beat me.

[fleet wharf]

assa yes, outlaw not really but they don't have 25% haste reliably yet

[gilded vortex]

hahah tnx

[fleet wharf]

so kind of

we only have "energy issues" when we don't have cds but we do no damage during that time so it's whatever

[keen dome]

Deal, if you are right I will swap to another transmog for the entireity of season 1.

That doesn't use purple.

[hallow matrix]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[hollow spear]

Some people coming in here cannot be serious

Acting like this tuning patch changed an iota about rogue being accepted to m+

[fleet wharf]

5*0=0

[fallow ingot]

Most ppl will do keys for vault so

[fleet wharf]

i mean in that case none of the tunings matter anyway

[hollow spear]

You could do vault keys with three arms warriors

[fleet wharf]

5 bears the dream

[hollow spear]

Who only have one arm

Arm warriors

[fallow ingot]

capped AoE vs not Capped AoE will never been fair anyway

[balmy gate]

Funny haha rogue is dead just accept it lul

[fallow ingot]

will just play outlaw in keys i guess

pr assa if they cah ge the crisom tempest design and bleed damages

[keen dome]

It's very funny

[hollow spear]

I'd argue them taking away aoe blind has way bigger implications

[keen dome]

I agree.

[wanton oasis]

What I’ve been saying

[keen dome]

Removing AoE blind is the only substanial change imo, and it really sucks. But it was meant to happen during beta and they fucked it for some reason.

[hollow spear]

Don't know, what have you been saying?

[wanton oasis]

What he said

[hollow spear]

Our damage wasn't anywhere close to high enough to be brought for our dps

[keen dome]

Ye, I don't think AoE blind would've been a make / break thing. I doubt most players knew we even had it.

[hollow spear]

With our kit, we almost have to be broken to be considered meta

[keen dome]

But it still sucks to lose.

[wanton oasis]

Dunno why they felt they needed to remove the one AOE stop when other classes had or have two on top of a pile of other utility.

We gots atrophic poison

[lilac stag]

I think most don’t actually want to be meta, but to be not sitting in LFG for 2 hours

[hollow spear]

These players don't get to complain about not getting invited into high keys tho

[balmy gate]

Juat Bad Game Design and Balancin maybe next addon:) Till then Back to valo

[keen dome]

Pretty much. And I think that's a fair desire, but I don't think it will ever change because of how M+ works. It's just.. yeah.

[hollow spear]

Kinda goes hand in hand though

[onyx flame]

Even if you sit in lfg for 1 second, who the fuck likes to pug m+

[hollow spear]

Community perception is a bitch

[keen dome]

me

hi, I'm the puglord

[tribal blade]

YUP

[fleet wharf]

If you outlvl and outio, the pugs will maybe invite you to their groups

[naive hemlock]

the moonkin sandbagging worked again

[fleet wharf]

even then it's a bit of a tossup

[shadow snow]

They dont care about rogue cause very few people play it

[hollow spear]

Sub was actually pretty good last season

[keen dome]

That's what I did in S3 TWW. I was 3k quite early on, and high above the curve so I would get into 10/12 keys extreemly easily and quickly every week.

[fleet wharf]

yea, but didnt fdk just eat our lunch though?

[shadow snow]

Because of the trinket

[hollow spear]

Maybe not meta meta, but strong

[lilac stag]

they’ve clearly put effort into it this expansion so you can stop that narrative.

[short radish]

problem is that if sub isn't meta then it's worthless to bring

[hollow spear]

Yeah

[short radish]

because at least non meta class bring utility

[shadow snow]

Effort in what ? Fixing what they broke?

[tribal blade]

this, sub needs to be giga broken to be a meta pick

[lilac stag]

every fucking class discord someone: blizzard hates my spec

[wanton oasis]

This is always the best strategy for pugging. Gotta push early to ease the queue times later.

[analog kelp]

such doomers lol

[keen dome]

Ye, 100%. And also using the time to make friends with people is absolutely fantastic.

[short radish]

yeah this is my hot (shit) take that I stand by

Rogue should always have at least one spec that is giga S tier damage, because all we bring is damage

[hollow spear]

The argument is that you have to have more utility than us to even become meta. Outside of being outright broken damage wise.

[balmy gate]

Blizzard hates His own Game why they do Balance Patch ? Just let it how it is no one needs it

[short radish]

and if we don't bring damage then what do we bring?

[tribal blade]

to be fair they did a shitton of bug fixing for sub which is unheard of

[keen dome]

Like, play a key with someone and it's super smooth? Get their btag. Chat to them.

[eager yoke]

vibes

[fleet wharf]

this whole talking to other ppl and trying to forge connections really do go a long way

[tribal blade]

taht is quite literally all we bring atm yeah

[short radish]

talking in an mmo? thats crazy

[hollow spear]

Lazyleaf pumping out shit take after shit take, banger

[fleet wharf]

imagine wanting to connect with other... people holy shit what a concept

[lilac stag]

This is literally the most playable sub as a spec has been iterated on during a beta cycle as well as having actual impactful bugs fixed prior to launch.

We’ve literally not had full talent choices missing going into prepatch.

[keen dome]

I met some title players through just chatting with people and they were trying to bring me to 16/17 keys just because they liked playing with me. I never did because THAT'S FUCKING TERRIFYING but like. Just play well, meet people, chat, etc.

it goes so far

[lilac stag]

so another week before this place clears out?

[hollow spear]

True

[tribal blade]

it'll be back to the usual suspects 😉

[hollow spear]

Two minimum

[short radish]

yeah once people realise how mid sub really is

[keen dome]

And we'll be blastin'

[hollow spear]

Maybe if they turbo buff sin next reset

[tribal blade]

i'm just playing sub in raid at the start because i wanna vibe while learning the fights

[lilac stag]

Assa buff in 2? I figured 3

[tribal blade]

i can play sub without thinking much

[hushed roost]

assa getting a buff mythic week 100%

LMAO

[supple pawn]

How does assa play, compared to other classes? Never tried it before

[hollow spear]

It's shit

[fleet wharf]

yea I'd be shocked if they dont get touched up at all

[keen dome]

It's very red.

And some green.

[supple pawn]

How come it's always so popular then

[tribal blade]

it's quite easy now

[fleet wharf]

give it a go. who knows, you might like it

[short radish]

easiest rogue class

[lilac stag]

now?

[keen dome]

ye, same. It's so nice for pug leading raids 'cos I can perform really well and adjust damage as needed while also herding the cats I've found in lfg.

[fleet wharf]

no, that's us now

[hollow spear]

Sin is hella boring

[supple pawn]

Oh! I meant more gameplay wise. But yeah, I can also just try it

[wanton oasis]

It’s either “slow” or “methodical” depending on your perspective.

[hollow spear]

I don't get excited

[tribal blade]

people love the theme and also it has absolutely cracked funnel/prio

[hushed roost]

everyone say that but i dont think any of the specs are acutally boring

[balmy gate]

Man U are SUB rogue there is No well performin haha

[tribal blade]

when you look into how much prio sin has it's very powerful in keys

[lilac stag]

Nah. Assa still easier and less drop off for
Mistakes.

[keen dome]

Buddy you are rerolling off it on the first balance pass, you were never going to perform well on it.

[short radish]

i have another shit take that assi was missed in the balancing patch because they want to try force more players onto sub

[lilac stag]

just had another button lol

[supple pawn]

Ooo? Elaborate.

[fleet wharf]

there is a red channel up there

i'm sure they'll be happy to oblige

[short radish]

given all the "work" theyve done to simplify it

[supple pawn]

Oh! True, mb

[hushed roost]

assa is a blizzard psyop?

[tribal blade]

damn gestalt holding the sub torch

[short radish]

well assi is always 70% of the rogue population

[hollow spear]

Pls no

[cursive vapor]

[short radish]

even when sub was meta it's still 50%

[fleet wharf]

I really think we might take some ppl away from assa now

[short radish]

because of the perception that sub was complicated (it really wasnt)

[hollow spear]

They can keep them

[fleet wharf]

i feel before, ppl couldn't be bothered to learn the burst rotation

now that barrier is gone

[short radish]

but now that sub is super simplified

they want more players to try it out

[hushed roost]

thats real because i even swapped to assa for nexus/dim reclear LOL

[keen dome]

Ye, the barrier to learn the dumb rules Sub had.

[short radish]

thank you for listening to my hot shit take

[tribal blade]

we were 100% taking people because of how much they simplified sub

and it was tuned well

[short radish]

please like and subscribe for more

[tribal blade]

and then they'll bandwagon hop when the hype is gone

[hollow spear]

I think shit takes are always hot if they come from Australia

Comes with the climate

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

[keen dome]

haha

[supple pawn]

Mandatory the prune was ass post (non inflammatory)

[fleet wharf]

i mean even if it's ass, it's what we got to live with now

[supple pawn]

Ye exactly

[hollow spear]

Idk I vibe with new sub

[wanton oasis]

I do miss old sub, mostly. But AA definitely makes it more interesting than the prepatch variety.

[fleet wharf]

I want my piano specs back please... blizz

[lilac stag]

@short radish I didn’t get to respond yesterday. Why did you try to John Connor me from the future with a 2024 tuning patch note?

[fallow ingot]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[keen dome]

I stand by thinking Sub needs one more button to do.. something.. with burst. Otherwise the rework is extremely good imo. It kept the identity while removing a lot of the cruft and dumb 'rules' you had to consider when playing it (Sub was never hard to play, just needlessly complex)

[short radish]

wait when was this?

[supple pawn]

The reason I enjoyed TWW sub is honestly more of a deathstalker issue than a pruning issue haha. Like I thought it was neat to use shuriken storm/tornado in ST and eviscerate in AOE just to give extra buttons to think about

[fleet wharf]

p sure they'll add something before the expansion's over

[supple pawn]

But that's more a deathstalker issue than a sub issue

[fleet wharf]

i feel that's half of the reason for pruning is to readd stuff down the road

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[lilac stag]

yeah. The base of the spec is great. Fix Goremaw and we ballin

[keen dome]

Reduce it all down to 1 then build it back up with the new focus in mind rather than just adjusting existing stuff

[hushed roost]

best blizzard can do is give you rupture back

KEKW

[supple pawn]

Really hoping this is the case

[lilac stag]

Yesterday with the Evis buff for 5%

[fleet wharf]

embrace the ss evisc life brother

[short radish]

i just want to afk for 10 seconds again

[wanton oasis]

I tried the BP/coop macro and had mixed results. Thoughts?

[short radish]

oh, because funny fake notes

[hollow spear]

Bp coup macro not for me

[supple pawn]

presents classic ret paladin

[lilac stag]

It’s for lazy fucks and it’s far from optimal

[hollow spear]

Complaining about pruning and then macroing bp with coup

[fleet wharf]

i feel the macro is fine as long as you have bp bound on a separate button

[hollow spear]

Nono

[eager yoke]

i like pressing more buttons that macro not for me

[hollow spear]

You also risk sending coup on two shitter mobs who are almost dead

[fleet wharf]

idk I had like 4 buttons for dance/symbol permutations

i mean I agree having only that button is bad, but what's the problem with using the macro if you can also choose to only send bp

[supple pawn]

I only took the dance macros because I figured it was a major dps loss to miss a GCD, that's the impression I got from wowhead

[wanton oasis]

Symbol was the only part of old sub I didn’t like. It felt redundant.

[supple pawn]

I don't have trinket, pot, blades on macros with dance

[fleet wharf]

yea, but the burst of energy was nice though

[supple pawn]

I used to hit sec tech and dance separately but

Again

[hollow spear]

Flag was much worse

[supple pawn]

I got the impression that's a major grief

[robust light]

i kinda miss flag

[hollow spear]

I liked that it made our 90s stronger

[hushed roost]

i miss flag rupture

sorry bro

[short radish]

i dont

[olive canyon]

what would be the optimal use of which the macro prevents?

[hollow spear]

But that button press was aids

[hushed roost]

that shit would pump me up for the pull

[short radish]

press detection

[hollow spear]

Spam hearthstone

[fleet wharf]

Flag wasn't fun to use, but I liked what it did to the damage profile

[robust light]

im glad symbols is dead

[wanton oasis]

I kinda liked the feel of “setting up” blades/dance with flag/rupture

[lilac stag]

Spamming BP while tank gathers and your send off coup by itself instead of waiting 4 second for dance empowered one in a full pull

[hollow spear]

Maybe a dot with a longer cooldown

For some prio damage

15s duration and 45 second cooldown, one target only

High damage

[river coral]

so is DS now the play after trickster nerfs?

[olive canyon]

ah gotcha, so its better to hold it for the big hit once all collated and no auto-waste in sub-optimal pulls

[fleet wharf]

lmk how that goes

[hollow spear]

DS is never the play

[supple pawn]

What if flagellation was a finisher you could only use in dance. So it's like a SS evis SS flag thing

Or not dance, I meant blades haha

I'm being annoying

[river coral]

im mostly asking about raid, no fucking way im playin DS in dungeons

[blazing night]

Last repost, here, as I finish up. I uploaded my Plater profile to Wago. Feel free to use it. All M+ (no boss/raid, yet) spells and priorities are updated.

https://wago.io/Xp8NhA9fC

[supple pawn]

I was gonna ask why they don't just make darkest night cleave. Then I realised that's just coup

[fleet wharf]

i'd rather they do that for sec tech and lower the cd

idk, i feel blizz just didn't want any class to have sub's damage profile any more

[supple pawn]

Understandable

[supple pawn]

Also understandable, I remember in TWW I came in here and people complained you only do damage every 1.5min LMAO

[hollow spear]

Make dance reset sectec

[fleet wharf]

yea that could work too

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/reaction-oh-yeah-you-dont-gif-4941619

[fleet wharf]

that is what I liked about the spec anyway. That and being able to move the "small" dps windows somewhat flexibly

sadly both are gone now

[supple pawn]

I personally don't really give a shit about damage profile I think

[fleet wharf]

It defines niches for classes, so I do think it is quite important

[supple pawn]

I think the main thing I care about was mostly removed from the game :p

Scath would know!

[fleet wharf]

at least in TWW, sub was a premier prog spec because we were like a scalpel that can precisely blow up prio mobs

[short radish]

yeah having that niche was really nice

[fleet wharf]

that and not giving a fuck about haste

[short radish]

also that

[fleet wharf]

god, this season will be miserable having to deal with lust and shit

also we're not good enough to ask for PI either lmao

[zealous flicker]

Hello, can someone explain me why there is a macro with coup de grace and black powder? I don't get how can the 2 be casted at the same time

[short radish]

i like (i really dont) that with this need to get haste, we STILL dont care about bloodlust

[supple pawn]

Yeah I was hoping that blizzard would STOP MAKING EVERY FUCKING CLASS HASTE MAST

[thorny ridge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[supple pawn]

I like that some specs actually want vers

[dry plank]

PI does not work for us anyway

[fleet wharf]

it doesn't? I thought it lengthened SD and lowered sec tech cd?

[wanton oasis]

Another thing I miss is reducing the cooldown of sectec by pushing buttons.

[fleet wharf]

that I don't miss

[hazy breach]

Pi does not lengthen dance

[supple pawn]

I understand this and do think it's a good chance

[hazy breach]

Only haste from stats do

[dry plank]

Nope racial 1% also does not

[supple pawn]

Change

[tame notch]

It just makes you dont care about coup and just spam blackpowder and if coup procs you just use it casting blackpowder via macro

[tame notch]

Without it u need to keep track of coup and use it manually

[zealous flicker]

Ohhhh okay thanks a lot

[wanton oasis]

I get why it’s a “good” change. I just like the feeling of progression I got as I lowered the CD. Not sure any other class had a mechanic like that?

[thin sinew]

I noticed that with nerf racial.

Pretty dumb honestly

[supple pawn]

I believe something on warrior does, unsure if it's slayer or colossus

Survival hunter has CDR on boomstick for AOE

[dry plank]

What nerf? Talent did not work with % increase from start

[supple pawn]

But that's different to Sectech for sure

Because it turns boomstick into a rotational

Ehhh

Word

[wanton oasis]

Ah, never played survival. Just BM and marks.

[thin sinew]

Sorry meant nelf :p

[supple pawn]

The AOE loop for them is bombs reduce boomstick CDR, and boomstick reduces bomb CDR

Quite a fun loop

[wanton oasis]

Sounds fun. Have to try it out.

[modern sentinel]

Ask the 1 sub rogue dev to look at ass and law. Ty

[dry plank]

Nelf gives you % CRIT at night no? Everyone raid at evening usually so it does not matter anyway

[thin sinew]

Thinks we have a dev 🤣

[lilac stag]

You already know they will buff assa in 3 weeks.

[modern sentinel]

0.5

[supple pawn]

Oh no, is it a hunter situation? In DF we didn't have a Dev either lmao

[thin sinew]

Nope crit in day haste at night

[short radish]

man sub chat popping off so hard we might need to go into slow mode

[modern sentinel]

[supple pawn]

I slightly worry tbh, because I've been deciding between survival or sub

[naive hemlock]

system engage slow mode

[supple pawn]

For raid

Noooooo

[wanton oasis]

Does it matter anyway, when blizz can’t read and comprehend damage trends and adjust things an appropriate amount?

[naive hemlock]

doom has reached critical levels

[woeful hull]

Hey guys, good morning, does anyone know if it's worth crafting a dagger before the first season comes out?

[lilac stag]

The answer is always the same. Play what you find fun and play it well.

[wanton oasis]

I think if you don’t have a vet MH, crafting a vet MH is probably a good idea.

[supple pawn]

I DONT KNOW WHICH I WILL ENJOY MORE

[lilac stag]

SO LET ME ASK RANDOMS IN CHAT WHAT I FIND FUN!

[keen dome]

You'll be able to upgrade the dagger regardless, and at worst it'll become your OH weapon. It's a gamble, but a pretty safe one for Sub rogue, imo.

[supple pawn]

I'm not sure a good way to figure out what I'd prefer

[dry plank]

Dooming only newcomers it’s fine.

[modern sentinel]

Throw a dice

[woeful hull]

what's vet MH?🤨 😅

[supple pawn]

ITS EASIER TO ENFORCE MY AGENCY ONTO OTHERS

Wait

Wrong words but you get it

[keen dome]

Vet MH meaning a MH using veteran crests rather than a spark to craft, I assume

[lilac stag]

just send a spac. Get a nice outlaw offhand either way

[graceful crown]

if you're gigachad just use your sparks on chest or helmet

[supple pawn]

Gigaheadass

(joke)

[woeful hull]

Understand

Thanks guys

🙂

[wanton oasis]

Right. I would think it’s best to wait for myth crests to craft with a spark, or maybe use a “free” heroic crest thing if we get one for completing the raid per usual?

[jaunty heath]

What else you would spark when you want weapon embellish

[modern sentinel]

You only lose gold

[graceful crown]

i crafted my MH dagger and a vet cloak both with embellish

[jaunty heath]

And you get second spark with raid open ...

[supple pawn]

But what if we get a mythic weapon from raid

[graceful crown]

ima lil'chaddie

[keen dome]

Well, you can recraft so there isn't any real difference to crafting now -> upgrading later versus waiting to craft when you have 80 myth.

Except gold. Except you'd have a weaker MH initially

[jaunty heath]

How does it matter, crafted weapon is bis offhand

[supple pawn]

Oh,, I didn't know

I also main survival, which usually uses 2 hand weapon so

[keen dome]

Ye, you'll be able to use your crafted OH regardless.

[supple pawn]

They don't exactly use their crafted weapon if they get one from raid

[lilac stag]

You haven’t looked at SV that closely then

[supple pawn]

It makes sense it's difference for DW classes

[supple pawn]

Sentinel is ahead of PL and it's a 3% damage loss to use DW as sentinel :p

For ST

[wanton oasis]

It’s always a gamble crafting. Never know what you are going to get next week. But there’s no point in trying to guess, just send it in your biggest upgrade or a bis craft.

[unique flax]

Are these changes good for rogue?

[lilac stag]

PL will be the play

[supple pawn]

Not on the 17th

[lilac stag]

ok boss. There’s no pure ST in raid

[supple pawn]

Mind that Sentinel is like 2-3% above PL DW

[modern sentinel]

Smh no patchwerk

[lilac stag]

Hunter propaganda always fun

[supple pawn]

Well that much I didn't consider

[keen dome]

I shadowstrike'd a mob and have been sent to the disconnecting shadowrealm. Smh.

[modern sentinel]

Created a blackhole

[wanton oasis]

Say it ain’t so.

[modern sentinel]

I will not go

[keen dome]

Voraisus is kinda ST. I guess.

[lilac stag]

I like getting stuck in the boxes on the ever song boats when striking.

[fallen yew]

how hard is sub

[robust light]

not

[supple pawn]

Depends

[fallen yew]

i've played some outlaw

[keen dome]

It's very chill. Just give it a go

[fallen yew]

not a rouge main

[supple pawn]

No class really hard anymore

[earnest pike]

can u recommend a race or it doesnt matter

[supple pawn]

Formula 1

[wanton oasis]

This.

[keen dome]

it doesn't really matter, but if you want to absolutely minmax then it's mechagnome probably

[fallen yew]

which is stronger sub or outlaw?

[keen dome]

yes

[supple pawn]

Unholy

[austere plank]

demo

[short radish]

feral

[fallen yew]

ok xd

[lilac stag]

Arms

[fallen yew]

ok you're pushing it

[robust light]

boomy

[fallen yew]

XD

[short radish]

okay now you're being silly

[modern sentinel]

They are up in arms over there

[lilac stag]

Giga buffed. Has most rotational buttons.

[wanton oasis]

They went balls deep on UH, is it still goi g to be broken?

[lilac stag]

what everyone wants duh

[short radish]

it's been nerf'd from God tier to S tier

[wanton oasis]

lol

[fallen yew]

nah but fr, which is more fun

[lilac stag]

we’ve got what 3 more weeks of the circus that is blue patch notes?

[wanton oasis]

They shoulda done an arcane on it. God tier to F tier.

[keen dome]

thats subjective.

Just play both, see which you enjoy more.

[fallen yew]

going from fury warrior

to rouge

[short radish]

bm hunter

[fallen yew]

which one is most similar

[keen dome]

We can't tell you what YOU would find more fun.

[short radish]

lipsticks aren't a class

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

[fallen yew]

xd

[keen dome]

Just go flip a coin.

[lilac stag]

hope it lands on not rogue

[wanton oasis]

*rouge

[wraith sphinx]

Okay no I'm sick of this from now on I'm telling people what to play

[wanton oasis]

Moulin rouge

[wraith sphinx]

PLAY SUB

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[wraith sphinx]

ITS THE FUN ONE

[modern sentinel]

Play with yourself

[fallen yew]

like the outlaw spec?

[lilac stag]

@fallen yew did you play fury last season?

[fallen yew]

xD

[fallen yew]

always played fury

[wraith sphinx]

Sub is borderline fury with stealth now go play that

[fallen yew]

not looking to switch more like fun alt

[lilac stag]

This version of sub paces like fury, but with burst CDs instead of flat dmg

[dry plank]

Dk discord wouldn’t agree with you but yeah they just sandbagging trolls

[fallen yew]

ooo i like burst

[lilac stag]

there’s some slow down between dances

And pace is quick during dance

[short radish]

dks are now in the same tier as boomkin and warlocks with crying about their class

[fleet wharf]

are locks also crybabies? legit dunno

[lilac stag]

minimal buttons, but you need to align cds so you have stuff to track

[fallen yew]

my char is named after outlaw rouge xD

[olive canyon]

I may be wrong but i recall last season or the one before there was a sheet that listed sim numbers for all specs broken down by targets as well (2, 3, different scenarios) - does that exist or do we need more data to create it?

[iron obsidian]

yeah i didnt realize another class could be as bad as Boomkin

[short radish]

pretty sure in TWW that DKs were S tier the entire expansion

[iron obsidian]

they fs were for m+

[fleet wharf]

but they weren't brought in for gally, therefore they suck and need a raidbuff

someone had to be cut for 5 firemages

oh well

[iron obsidian]

frost s1, uh s2 and s3

[lilac stag]

They didn’t matter on a boss that didn’t matter

damn

[wanton oasis]

Gally WF was what, 50 pulls, and oops he’s dead.

[lilac stag]

Almost like 7/8 was actual CE season 2

[fleet wharf]

no, it's the most consequential boss kill of all time bro

and DKs weren't in!

Why can't you understand how devastating it is

[wanton oasis]

That’s what blizz gets for not putting last bosses on the PTR.

[short radish]

read a comment earlier this afternoon with one of the dks going "theyve basically nerf'd out damage outside our burst to the ground. we're going to be doing nothing outside of our cooldowns"

acutal fucking monkeys

/spit

[fleet wharf]

huh I do wonder what that makes TWW sub lmao

[wanton oasis]

This is why they made grip mandatory on dimmy

[dry plank]

Mental break. Being op in m+ and don’t play 1 boss. Must be very sad 🙂

[wanton oasis]

Imagine not doing damage outside of cooldowns…. Backstab, Backstab, Backstab. Wait for it… Evisc!

[short radish]

yeah i dont think a lot of people understand the concept of "in order for burst to exist, you need to do shit damage in other periods"

otherwise you are just an outlaw rogue

[wanton oasis]

Not having burst is not fun at all.

[timid fossil]

Are we outlaw mains now?

[wanton oasis]

Flat damage profiles are boring AF.

[short radish]

yeah

[fleet wharf]

maybe next week. blizz forgot other rogue specs exists

[short radish]

im crafting a sword right now

[fleet wharf]

lmao I actually crafted my dagger like 5 min ago

[tight sequoia]

Eviiiiiii backstab

[fleet wharf]

I was kind of wanting to try outlaw

[short radish]

yeah i crafted mine a few days ago

[dry plank]

Big mistake

[lilac stag]

every button press MUST FEEL IMPACTFUL

[short radish]

idk im not playing outlaw

too complicated

[fleet wharf]

thats why I wanna try it

cuz it got more bells and whistles

[lilac stag]

ptsd from your historical roots?

[olive canyon]

all the changes seemed reasonable - i just dont get how frost mages didnt get touched

[short radish]

yeah

[wanton oasis]

I remember when dagger ambush used to nearly one shot mfers and backstab wasn’t anything to sneeze at.

[wanton oasis]

Shhhhh, they will hear you

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

mages don't get nerf'd

warlocks/dks/mages are the hero classes of wow

[fleet wharf]

fr. them and demo locks were busted in m0, i mean it's m0 at the end of the day but v curious

[lilac stag]

range is hard to play

[languid crow]

any changes to builds?

[timid fossil]

UDk got clapped from god to mid

[wanton oasis]

Oh they do my friend. Look what has happened to arcane and fire historically.

[eager yoke]

craft spark??

[short radish]

god to s tier*

[olive canyon]

Frost mage will blast this raid with all the dmg profiles on these bosses and it never feels like you are out of burst, its just pure pump

[timid fossil]

Frost > uh in raid cause the cleave

[fleet wharf]

yea, you don't lose much by committing now unless you really wanna play outlaw next week and the first few weeks of mythic prog

[lilac stag]

soon™

[olive canyon]

Sub aoe was kinda dumb so i tried to sacrifice a goat to pray it didnt get nerfed but it was always gonna happen

[fleet wharf]

I sandbagged as outlaw guys, gimme some praise too

[wanton oasis]

The problem with frost mage is it’s going to fall off BC it scales poorly relative to other specs.

[olive canyon]

with the ST buffs to evis etc,does that include the shadow component of our dmg profiles on those abilities too? or just the physical?

[rapid estuary]

WHEN WILL THEY FIX OUR CLASS

[wanton oasis]

And the tier is dog shit

[rapid estuary]

WE WANT JUSTICE

[short radish]

142774 * 80% puts them at 114k which is competing with devoker, bugged feral sims and frostmage

[supple pawn]

site?

[rapid estuary]

THE THING IS UH SUCKS ASS IN NON ST

SO THAT CLASS IS DEAD

[iron obsidian]

oh shit is feral bugged? i was wondering why they were there considering my guilds druid was dooming about feral

[iron obsidian]

simulationcraft

[supple pawn]

lmao

[short radish]

shits a bit fuckywucky

[junior ether]

how bad is it guys

i just woke up

[lilac stag]

If everything else is destroying adds, the ST bro shines in the now ST fight

[junior ether]

tldr pls

[hazy bough]

pin

[short radish]

[rapid estuary]

there are like no ST fights

[iron obsidian]

6% buff st, 15% nerf aoe

[fleet wharf]

it's over guys

[iron obsidian]

but yeah just check pins

[fleet wharf]

pack it up

[short radish]

based leaf

[junior ether]

oh shit it's ass

gg

[lilac stag]

Read the full sentence

[olive canyon]

rogue sims tend to be quite accurate so i wonder if they know something about assa that we dont, or they are just waiting

[rapid estuary]

yeah maybe attempt writing in full sentences

[rancid sierra]

do buffs change build at all? gloomblade or anythin?

[fleet wharf]

reading and writing in 2026? what?

[tepid trellis]

no

[supple pawn]

oh is this why we memed about outlaw tier

am i looking at the right thing

im like 90% sure im not

[short radish]

yes but also this happens every tier

[lilac stag]

If you’re entire raid is spec full add blast. Adds don’t live. It’s now ST.

[short radish]

where outlaw sims ahead

[iron obsidian]

yes but outlaw is always simmed ahead but been worse

[supple pawn]

but then shit because of ingame damage profile

people blow up adds

they need adds to live

type shit?

[fleet wharf]

no, I think you need 100% uptime to achieve those numbers

[wanton oasis]

lol @ brew above arcane.

[fleet wharf]

if you lose even a second your damage starts falling off of a cliff

[supple pawn]

oh, gotcha

[short radish]

punished by downtime

[tepid trellis]

0 burst and cant deal with downtime

[supple pawn]

survival is sorta similar to that too

[fleet wharf]

but it should be better with the rework

[lilac stag]

All sims need 100% uptime

[fleet wharf]

outlaw might actually be good

[eager yoke]

probably have like constant 2+ roll the dice the whole time

[short radish]

class with flat damage profile can't pick when to do burst unfortunatly

[supple pawn]

but survival is also hard to get downtime on because it's a hybrid melee lol

[eager yoke]

to get those sims

[fleet wharf]

I feel they're not as flat as they used to be

[tribal blade]

last tier sub was absolute dogwater in ST but ended up being a very strong spec on the last 2 bosses because of how we dealt dmg

[short radish]

not how sims work but 👍

[short radish]

also this. sims only go so far as the specific scenario its simming for

[short radish]

and bosses are not 5min patchwerk 0 movement

[iron obsidian]

nah bro wdym

thats every single boss

[tribal blade]

this is my cope but it's honestly not really cope, just reality

[fast moat]

so currently after the patch notes we prefer sub for raid ig? even tho mostly aoe fights. i dont wanna prog with assa, dont even get me started on outlaw

[lilac stag]

You’re just waiting for assa buffs.

[short radish]

pressing prep goes hard

[iron obsidian]

same

[short radish]

im playing sub because i enjoy playing sub and find it fu n

you should also play what you find fun

[tribal blade]

heehee i have to admit i would be completely fine if sin got buffed

[short radish]

if you dont want to play assass and outlaw then dont play it

[lilac stag]

Like a wet fart

[tribal blade]

playing FB sin is super vibe

[short radish]

theres always some solids in a wet fart

[supple pawn]

damn

[fleet wharf]

where are you guys finding these sim profiles?

[tepid trellis]

simulationcraft

[fleet wharf]

ah

[silent ruin]

Claude AI

[lilac stag]

I’m assuming simc site

[supple pawn]

hey that's us!

https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/MID1_Raid.html @fleet wharf

[tribal blade]

my favorite is when my guildies shit on me for playing a non meta rogue spec and then proceed to gray/green parse every boss

[short radish]

tbh sub looks flatter than i would have expected

thought there'd be some variation every 20 seconds

[lilac stag]

maybe you can blue parse this tier since spec easier

[fleet wharf]

idk iirc charrend actually showed outlaw logs from warcraftlogs and it didnt look that flat

[tribal blade]

i think it's definitely not as flat as before because AR isn't almost perma uptime

[fleet wharf]

surely they'll be good

[tribal blade]

and now you have that talent to make AR have an amp

what is it +15% dmg?

something like that

[void ocean]

any Bartender enjoyers here?

[rancid sierra]

whats assasinations @supple pawn

[iron obsidian]

they arent on there

[fleet wharf]

20

[lilac stag]

White Russian please

[supple pawn]

no sims

[rancid sierra]

Ah, are the already accounting for the buffs tuesday?

these*

[iron obsidian]

no

[void ocean]

https://giphy.com/gifs/the-big-lebowski-GSy9m0iLbjJPW

[short radish]

Я не говорю по-русски

[supple pawn]

unholy isnt at the top so i thought they did but guess not

[tepid trellis]

some yes some no

[iron obsidian]

nvm they are

somewhat

[rancid sierra]

oh they are?

[tepid trellis]

depends if they got sent in again

[tribal blade]

yeah that, so outlaw definitely a bit more bursty

[iron obsidian]

yeah i was looking earlier and kinda forgot that they coulda been updated since this afternoon

[jaunty heath]

they will do assa buff if it come too much behind in raid, they always do

[iron obsidian]

i mean

im expecting them to be touched next week

[void ocean]

when did u change ur colour

[tribal blade]

guaranteed

[iron obsidian]

when they get mythic tuning ready

[jaunty heath]

it happened every single tier

[wanton oasis]

MARK IT ZERO

[cunning finch]

so tired of rogue being a baseline cleave simulator

[supple pawn]

why do you expect blizzard to touch ass

[jaunty heath]

its always PEW PEW sub tier and than slowly sub falls into dust

[cunning finch]

just means we will never be on the top of ST

[fleet wharf]

Assa got there last season didn't they?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/kpop-triples-shion-quiet-shh-gif-4567183620981080923

[supple pawn]

we're sub, why do you wanna be on top?

[short radish]

tbh as long as we're upper middle pack

and the top isn't bonkers stupid far away

thats good enough for me

[supple pawn]

i'll refrain from such jokes

i apologise

[short radish]

never apologise for making that sub joke

[jaunty heath]

the top will get flattened after heroic week too

[tribal blade]

nobody in here makes as dumb jokes as me, have at it

[lilac stag]

mage will get buffed

[short radish]

im confused what's the joke?

[tribal blade]

i'm actually really enjoying listening to mages despair over being less tanky

[lilac stag]

“Flattened after heroic week”

[short radish]

mage tears are delicious

[tribal blade]

"what do you mean i'm not immortal anymore"

[fleet wharf]

we should give them our little shitty potion for their reverse time ability

[north garnet]

The class tribalism is wild

[supple pawn]

why are mages the top and the bottom

[tribal blade]

well to be fair mages have been the golden child for so long it's kinda hilarious

[supple pawn]

wtf

[supple pawn]

vault of the incarnates

[void ocean]

Mr. Marx wants to know ur location

[short radish]

im pretty sure they still have more active defences than most other classes

they just require you to activate them

[tribal blade]

yeah i think they're just in line with everyone else now and everyone thinks they're paper

[fleet wharf]

bro healing mages in pugs is so fucking awful because they never press anything

[short radish]

damn brought down from god tier to A tier

[fleet wharf]

and then you go play with a competent mage and they're immortal

[tribal blade]

rogue is definitely very tanky though, but not easy to do

[fleet wharf]

it's kind of nuts

[short radish]

mage that presses alter time for defensive and not get another blink charge

[lilac stag]

1/3 is tanky

[tribal blade]

they make it sound like they're F tier now

[north garnet]

Just wish we could save face a little. It happens any tier any tuning comes around

[short radish]

what face

[tribal blade]

IF you press feint

[lilac stag]

2/3 better defensives than most

[short radish]

mages have been consistently upper tier

for the last forever

[lilac stag]

then there is DK

[supple pawn]

oh but you see they still need a raid buff

and more mobility

[void ocean]

https://giphy.com/gifs/high-quality-ones-dN7NWfaBMdG5G

[supple pawn]

just give them shadow of death atp

[tribal blade]

mage wasn't technically a part of the meta last season but still played at the highest level and in the MDI

[lilac stag]

mage is just naturally meta.
unfortunately 99% of them suck.

[short radish]

damn it's almost like they are a well rounded class that brings good damge, utility, lust and raid buff

[lilac stag]

[tribal blade]

WAIT

nvm i was wrong

[lilac stag]

Don’t forget stealth skips previously

[tribal blade]

there's the mage

[fleet wharf]

if only blizz forgets to put eyes on every single fucking mob in the dungeon

[tribal blade]

my mistake fam mage was part of the meta last season

[void ocean]

how else r they gonna see

[tribal blade]

i was spreading misinformation

[short radish]

in the dungeon where you have to do the bear shit and feed,

you can skip every single mob in the last area if you have shroud and a DH/evoker

[lilac stag]

The priest covered what the Mage couldn’t invis

[fleet wharf]

I feel they might as well just delete shroud at this point though

[short radish]

dunno why they havent

[fleet wharf]

the priest comment is so accurate though, soothe is not only shorter cd, longer range than our 7 min cd ability

[short radish]

they insist on making shroud/invis skips not usable

so shrouds only useful in random non consequential occasions

its basically flavor

oh and m0 week

[torn tide]

is there only gonna 4 of the midnight dungeons+the 4 returnings in m0 after 17th?

so like i wont have to see blinding vale or voidscar etc

[tribal blade]

shroud needs a rework or something

[fleet wharf]

do we get the m+ pool as m0 on the 17th?

[tribal blade]

to be actually relevant

[lilac stag]

the linear routes to remove tank thinking killed rogue “utility”

[short radish]

rework to what though

[hollow spear]

Don't think so

[fleet wharf]

just the drop lvl increase right?

[tribal blade]

i honestly dunno, maybe when in combat it turns into something else

[hollow spear]

Yep

[supple pawn]

partywide cloak of shadows?

[short radish]

give us smoke bomb again

holy fuck

[supple pawn]

it is a 6 min CD

[short radish]

please

[lilac stag]

The m0 go daily reset

[tribal blade]

i would love smokebomb

[short radish]

that'd be such am azing utility as well

[fleet wharf]

thats a DH ability. they got a new class too, don't you know?

[tribal blade]

that would be kinda nuts haha

[short radish]

because we can LoS mobs

[lilac stag]

We just doing know which dungeons are m0 next week

[short radish]

something something AMZ

[hollow spear]

Party wide cloak would be hella busted

[short radish]

wait

[supple pawn]

at the very least make it like darkness

[short radish]

dont DKs already give party wide AMS

or did they remove that

[supple pawn]

and reduce CD to 2min

[tribal blade]

blizz really didn't like smokebomb affecting PVE mobs los though

[fleet wharf]

they gave a shitty version on some talents I think?

[tribal blade]

because it was super broken dependent on encounters

[hollow spear]

Yeah duration

But cloak cleanses a lot of stuff

[tribal blade]

i think rogue should bring something in the same vein as death grip

not death grip, but something unique and cool

shroud is that unique thing but it's kinda useless

[hollow spear]

Position swap

[fleet wharf]

group teleport

[tribal blade]

so we need something else

[fleet wharf]

wait

[short radish]

i just want rogue to get anything that's remotely useful utility wise

or an offensive raid buff

[tight roost]

What you think about the upcomming patch ? Its an Single Target Buff but aoe Nerf or ?

[tribal blade]

that's wyrnstone aug thing haha

[short radish]

[supple pawn]

group wide grappling hook?

[opal basalt]

Ryze ult for rogue?

[tribal blade]

nah i don't think so

[hollow spear]

Run into a hole, position swap, mob dead

[fleet wharf]

only takes 30 second channel

[supple pawn]

https://klipy.com/gifs/hachubby-shuffling-cups

[hollow spear]

Get los issues, die

[fleet wharf]

idk, if they want to go down more ninja theme, maybe something like grounding totem could work, no?

[lilac stag]

Rogue brings Raid wide mastery buff, then we can laugh at Outlaw for our own raid buff being near useless for them.

[fleet wharf]

but instead of a totem, we do the log replacement trick thing

[north garnet]

I feel like they struggle to create something cool for a rogue and and not batshit broken. Remember the raid wide cd reduction in dragonflight beta?

[hollow spear]

Maybe aoe disable white hits for 8s

[tribal blade]

HOW ABOUT party wide vanish on like a 3 min cd

[hollow spear]

To help the tank

[burnt loom]

We just had like 2-3 recent reworks to this spec alone, no totems are coming

[fleet wharf]

yea brick the pull every 3 minutes!

[short radish]

remember when we could give crimson vials to party members

[north garnet]

Easiest fix would be hunters mark like aura debuff on boss through poison

[fleet wharf]

imagine the abuse possibilities

[tribal blade]

oh shit nvm lol

you're right

[hollow spear]

I'm so bricked rn

[tribal blade]

i think some variation of smoke bomb would be good

[fleet wharf]

or we get crit damage on poison buff instead of DR

or we keep 1% dr and get crit dmg or crit % buff on poisoned targets

[tribal blade]

like i dunno smokebomb slows all enemy's casting by 50% and increased party wide casting speed by 15-25% for the duration

or raid wide actually

[hollow spear]

Sounds op

[tribal blade]

so during raid you can group the raid up and smokebomb

hell yeah, but how OP are deathgrips

[hollow spear]

Party wide mini lust

[tribal blade]

maybe not quite as fast speed for friendlies

like 10%

[jade pasture]

I just tuned in, what is the context of this

[north garnet]

We are not racing to the top tho

[fleet wharf]

or how about everyone is guaranteed loot in m+ if you have a rogue in the group

insta invites forever

[short radish]

licking each others wounds about us having 0 utility

[north garnet]

Hahaha

[hollow spear]

Us going crazy, as is tradition after a balance patch