subtlety

[plush roost]

And my fist weapon is intellect

Yar har

[regal current]

sandbag like tettles

[lilac stag]

[plush roost]

Its a pirates life for meeee

[stuck arrow]

Sorry bruv, need to win a raid spot.

[regal current]

unlucky

[lilac stag]

May I suggest DK or DH

[proper eagle]

Is sub aoe nerf big ?

[native quail]

no

[regal current]

#subtlety message

[steel wyvern]

but yes

[umbral frost]

Do we still play sub in m+

[lilac stag]

Outlaw in raid and m+

[steel wyvern]

💀

[sullen hare]

definitely outlaw

[regal current]

ew

[sullen hare]

yes play outlaw instead

[lilac stag]

heroic week for sure outlaw. No tier. No haste trinket.

[regal current]

play ass instead

[proper eagle]

Six st buff and aoe 15 nerf hmmm

[stuck arrow]

Suggest away.

Still going to play sub and try to too the meter if a mid level Mythic guild.

[lilac stag]

I’m sure sub will go great with the lag of a 30 man heroic raid.

That’s going to be the real fight

[stuck arrow]

That's why we play NElf, for haste buffer. 😉

[proper eagle]

Shadowmeld is goat

[regal current]

i play nelf for the ass

[marble sail]

The flips into sectech omgggg

[regal current]

look into that thing

[tribal herald]

Hi guys, I just created first rogue here and I was leveling up, I was planning to go raid on rogue (I currently play as DH only) is it still work after the changes? and is sub the best spec for raid?

[timber creek]

guys is sub dead m+ or nah im lowkey new to the game and not sure if these nerf numbers are just bad or fucking terrible?

[meager coyote]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[plush pecan]

Imagine you crafted dagger, now got a juicy nerf

[safe tundra]

Is it actually outlaw for m+ and raid

[safe tundra]

I don’t got a sword weapon to yse

[lilac stag]

dagger just goes to offhand. Not a big deal.

[safe tundra]

Use

[plush pecan]

Still, it’s OH - when did OH do most damage

[lilac stag]

we shall see.

[regal current]

worst case scenario i have a sword for my mainhand and it goes offhand

[grand wyvern]

also you have 4 sparks by the time raid open, its not like you have wasted crests on the craft yet

[regal current]

but im going sub whether its good or not

[plush pecan]

But didn’t we want dagger + the other ebemelishment?

Embelishment*

[lilac stag]

You want a weapon with darkmoon. So dagger is done at 259 for all three specs

[summer lynx]

I mean Im assuming sub will be fine seeing as sin and outlaw are still ass to play

[chrome palm]

@warm marlin outlaw dream might be real ngl

[north spire]

why did you craft a dagger, maybe outlaw will be better this tier

[chrome palm]

if sub cant into 2-3 tar

[regal current]

dont wanna play outlaw

plus you can just roll it into your offhand

[thin sinew]

Imagine wanting to play outlaw in any situation

[red pewter]

Energy procs are normalized for outlaw. Dagger OH is fine

[proper eagle]

ST is 6% buff

[regal current]

im just doing M+ with my friends anyway, i havnt raided seriously since WOTLK

[proper eagle]

AoE is 15% nerf

[mint portal]

im a long time sin player, but new to sub - or thinking about giving it a shot rather. in the wowhead guide it mentions macroing dance, shadowblades, and secret technique together, but in the pins it only mentions macroing dance and technique. is there a reason for one vs the other?

if im not misunderstanding, can i just macro all three together, and as long as im tracking my CDs i should know whether its too soon to push or not?

with shadow dance, do we use the second dance at all outside of shadow blades? if so, when do we use it

[regal current]

just macro dance and sec tec

[lilac stag]

Setting up arc for outlaw tomorrow.

[chrome palm]

im throwing arc out the window

driving me too insane

[mint portal]

whys that?

[chrome palm]

ayije cdm gaming now

[young harness]

U always wanna use together and u can fit in more GCDs in dance

[lilac stag]

I’m in too deep.

[regal current]

you dont always wanna use shadow blades

[lilac stag]

Send me a screen of what you come up with

[regal current]

but you always wanna use sec tec and shadow dance

[mint portal]

gotcha

what about second dance? where does it fit in? only during shadowblades?

[regal current]

and you do not use sec tech unless you are in shadow dance

use your first two shadow dance with blades and then it should line with sec tech

[young harness]

Why not macro blades with it all tho? If its not up the macro will send dance + tech

[hazy breach]

Technically its fine to macro blades with it

[regal current]

i dont wanna use shadow blades on every single trash pack

[mint portal]

when does the second one come up though? does second charge naturally come up with shadowblades?

[regal current]

id rather more independance on choosing when to use it

[hazy breach]

Whats not fine is anything that gives you haste, like the 90s on-use trinket or maghar racial

[young harness]

True

[hazy breach]

Because if you have that macroed with dance

The dance will not get the increased duration from that haste

[red pewter]

Honestly you should have multiple dance + gen/finisher macros

[regal current]

i mean dance recovers more than sec tech

youre often waiting on sec tech

[hazy breach]

As deepening shadows takes a few milliseconds to update

[mint portal]

yeah, so second charge should naturally come up with shadowblades right?

so i shouldnt be using the second charge except when doing shadowblades? thats what im understanding

[regal current]

you mostly just only use shadow dance with blades or sec tech

is the main caveat

[mint portal]

okay got it, thank you

[regal current]

2nd charge mostly start of pull thing

cuz you wanna keep the cd rolling

[willow knoll]

are these rogue buffs good altogether

I mean we did too much aoe damage anyways right

[regal current]

10% overall dungeon nerf, but we are better single target

[willow knoll]

Probably

[regal current]

we will be fine

[willow knoll]

Yeah that was kinda my vibe, doesn't seem all too bad

[red pewter]

Raid buff, zero sum game for m+ maybe slight nerf. Overall dmg down but boss damage up.

[willow knoll]

It's kind of what I wanted in a way because pumping during M+ mobs felt good

[tribal blade]

people are treating this tuning like it's gonna be the last of the tier

[willow knoll]

but I want rogue to be more single target oriented anyways as a class

[thin sinew]

I wouldn’t say that when our cleave got gibbed :S

All fights are basically cleave

[red pewter]

Small nerf to an ability that was a small portion of your overall isn’t really a big deal.

[hushed roost]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[willow knoll]

idk if I'd say that, BP was alot of my damage sometimes, it just depends.

[red pewter]

The BP nerfs are far more impactful

[hazy breach]

BP and Nimble flurry being small parts of your overall?

[thin sinew]

I was about to say

[willow knoll]

I've had BP be most of my damage

[red pewter]

Nimble flurry was relatively small

[hazy breach]

Like 15-20%

Its not that small

[warm marlin]

are you reading this ds propaganda

[thin sinew]

and BP was used 2+

[red pewter]

Okay….15% of 20% of your damage

[warm marlin]

shit maybe im swapping

[red pewter]

It’s not that big of a deal

[chrome palm]

LOL

idk man

[red pewter]

Again, the BP nerfs are a much bigger deal

[chrome palm]

this whole class just looks more shit every day

[steel wyvern]

swap dk bro

[lilac stag]

We had pvp in here too. Gdamn blue posts. Killing vibes.

[warm marlin]

im having fun in m0

[regal current]

im doing pvp rn

[quaint vapor]

i think we all move to arms warrior

[tribal blade]

you're telling me brother

[regal current]

you cant stop me

[warm marlin]

my brain feels a little smooth though

[regal current]

i have no pve to do

m0's took like an hour and a half

[chrome palm]

some of the buffs other classes got put them really high

so i dont think rogue seems very strong

[red pewter]

Ret pallys got over buffed

[willow knoll]

Unholy lmao

"All damage reduced by 20%. "

That's the sign of a wtf balancing team

[regal current]

who the fuck decided to lock all pve out for weeks anyway

we could have the rwf done already and be in m+

[lilac stag]

Assa will get 3 bug fixes and an 10% aura buff week 3 and proceed to top charts.

[soft oriole]

Nobody else in my guild is willing to touch rogue so I can play whatever I want and they can’t stop me

[chrome palm]

yeah im worried about this too

[red pewter]

Who the fuck decided to schedule 4 tuning passes during rtwf

[lilac stag]

Then I jump off a cliff

[chrome palm]

since assa got no tuning this week it means they are gonna climb next week

[tribal blade]

sin is 100% getting mega buffed

[chrome palm]

idk probably not mega

[tribal blade]

and it'll be the best rogue spec by a mile

[tribal blade]

maybe not mega true

[lilac stag]

and this makes you happy

[tribal blade]

but buffed for sure

[chrome palm]

rogue has evasion on anything more than like a 5% buff

[tribal blade]

LOL not not happy 😉

[vestal relic]

also outlaw nerf after heroic week and sucking for the rest of the season

[vale osprey]

As is tradition

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/ehh-probably-not-doubt-it-not-likely-highly-improbable-gif-17925398

[tribal blade]

all i can say is this is the first tuning pass

of many

[red pewter]

Outlaw sims are way overtuned, the spec is giga shit

[lilac stag]

All downhill from here for sub.

[tribal blade]

that i believe

once sub is down bad blizz won't do anything to help

[north garnet]

[red pewter]

Outlaw and sin in line for uppies next weeks tuning

[lilac stag]

@chrome palm they don’t get it.

[red pewter]

🤷🏼‍♂️

[regal current]

cant wait for 4 weeks of sub nerfs

im ready

[short radish]

only one for sub

[chrome palm]

im sure outlaw is worse than its sim

[short radish]

this will probably put us middle of the pack

[chrome palm]

but i imagine it was a lot worse in tww with uhuh

[short radish]

which is acceptable for blizzard

[chrome palm]

also if you wanna talk sims

or rather not being representative

[tribal blade]

this is the only one

[lilac stag]

outlaw will 100% be fine

[chrome palm]

maybe a pure st sim is more gracious for sub than it is outlaw in a raid with no pure st fight

[red pewter]

Is no one going to acknowledge our new melee overlords for this weeks tuning? Ret paladins?

[stuck arrow]

If you believe the sims it's 100% feral.

Although not sure I believe the sims for feral.

[red pewter]

6% aura buff of shit is still shit.

[red pewter]

Feral is still a stinker single target

[swift tinsel]

feral st is usually quite good actually

just gets memed on bc its feral

[red pewter]

Usually in past tense, sure. In present tense, feral is a stinker

[stuck arrow]

I mean also like. You expect me to believe that sim? Lol.

I don't even understand the kind of jank you'd need to reliably make that graph

[thin sinew]

Well the ones at 39k dps got distracted by r34

So pretty accurate spread

[regal current]

theyre cat druids

[swift tinsel]

not jank sims, just the last few tiers

[regal current]

they were all distracted

[tulip silo]

feral has, like, 5 good players that are absolutely cracked on sims

the rest is ok

[red pewter]

I too can make a graph like that if I single out a 30 second clip where I’m augged, pi’d, and lusted

[stuck arrow]

20% of pulls you just do 20% DPS? 😂

[red pewter]

…./whoooosh

[regal current]

those are the pulls hes looking at r34

[swift tinsel]

[red pewter]

Ferals are poopy butts, bow down to your pink pony riders until next weeks tuning. Ret ape together strong

[ivory swallow]

Hey folks, quick question, when you SD -> ST, do all your s***, then SD cooldown will reset making 2 charges again and ST still not ready, should we press a SD alone or should we wait until ST is back always?

[red pewter]

Huh

[thin sinew]

https://tenor.com/view/hilarious-hey-gif-9959410

[swift tinsel]

in shadow blades you send dance back to back

outside of that, send dance with secret technique

[ivory swallow]

Only with ST?

[swift tinsel]

ye

[ivory swallow]

Because I feel that sometimes you stick with 2 charges os dance

For at least a couple of seconds

[jagged bear]

i got what you were asking lol

[swift tinsel]

if your haste is weird maybe

[ivory swallow]

K

[swift tinsel]

but after blades you're chillin

[ivory swallow]

I think mine is 12% right now, it needs to be at least 18% right?1

[swift tinsel]

ye you want ~700 haste

[ivory swallow]

Got it, I think I am anxious hhahaha since my haste is still low, doing M0 I always want to add some DPS I end up pressing a dance alone, but that doesn't make sense because 3-5 seconds after technique will come back again and I will have to wait instead of instant putting it to CD again

[odd jacinth]

[pastel quarry]

If we have a Coup ready to go is Coup > Dance > SS > Sectec better? Or do we do Dance > Sectec and hope we get our apex after for the Coup? Just trying to understand why we need extra dance binds if we’re always sending with Sectec anyway

[swift tinsel]

you should def get apex for the coup after if you were pooling even a little bit

bc sectech gives 4 stacks

[pastel quarry]

Sounds like I need to read a little more into everything to understand it better. Appreciate the answer!

[hushed roost]

26k for weapon enchant

exciting

[raven blaze]

uh

why the fuck is this swapping to sectech

[pulsar hemlock]

It knows

[eager latch]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[raven blaze]

it is sectech for the entire duration of shadow dance

wtf is this bug

[swift drum]

deathstalker back in the chat or still trickster?

[raven blaze]

it wont let me eviscerate

it just shows as sectech for the entire duration of dance

wtf?

[eager latch]

how the fuck does this macro work
/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

[raven blaze]

casts coup if available, bp otherwise @eager latch

[eager latch]

so you just have the one bind? you don't even need separate ones?

[stuck arrow]

If you don't have coup up It's seen as an ability you don't know, so it's skipped.

[eager latch]

oh I see I see

got it

[stuck arrow]

It's better to have two.

[eager latch]

thanks gamers

[stuck arrow]

But it works as one.

[twin summit]

do we actually play around apex or am i just spamming dbl eviscerate whenever that shit up

[raven blaze]

why the fuck does this macro change to sectech

im losing my mind

[stuck arrow]

It shouldn't. Does it actually cast sectec? 😂

[heady garden]

is it stealth bar shenanigans

[raven blaze]

even this swaps to sectech

omg ur right

im an idiot

ty

[little epoch]

idc about ST .. our ST was anyways good

[raven blaze]

everything else on the bar is the same

fuark

[kind dome]

Do you wait sectec before launching dance then cast it or just aim to launch sectec during dance ?

[regal current]

dance then tech

always

[bleak night]

you use sectec after dance so that it gets supercharged

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq

[kind dome]

Sometimes i mismatch timings but thanks guys 😉

[lilac stag]

“With” not after

[bleak night]

well

it is after

just very very very close

[lilac stag]

it’s exact same time

unless you hit the macro during gcd

[hushed roost]

man this is pretty big aoe nerf

[amber oak]

do we use the apex proc with eviscerate only? Or is it fine using it with sectec as well?

[regal current]

coup if you can

[amber oak]

It seems like the same damage when paired with setec so, dunno if I dont see something, as for coup yeah, it's a lot

so we shouldn't use it with sectec at all?

[tough solar]

Are you real Shiphtur?

[meager coyote]

lol so I don't actually have to track coup stacks or flawless form stacks on my ui do I? O_O

[lilac stag]

You should.

[swift tinsel]

coup stacks yes, flawless form nah

[lilac stag]

Sending a coup for no reason at the end of 2 mobs because of a lazy fuck macro.

“Why is my dmg bad?!?!”

[meager coyote]

doubt it would be that much of a loss

[lilac stag]

Except you’re opening on a full pack with supercharged Sectech and Coup.

Where it matters

So yes it’s a loss

but do what you want

[meager coyote]

nono I'm convinced

[lilac stag]

Apex coup trucks and is everyone’s favorite priority dmg

[waxen orbit]

faq has 1.5% loss or something doing that but thats not including tues changes so dunno yet

[meager coyote]

my 2nd question is does coup get nimble flurry aoe'd even if I don't have flawless form or unseen blade on target? since it says it grants 5 stacks of flawless form basically the question is if it benefits from it's own flawless form lol

[waxen lintel]

Was sub rogue way ahead that we got a nerf to aoe? As compared to other classes

[tough solar]

It really is you. Big fan dude

[meager coyote]

@lilac stag mayhaps know?

[swift tinsel]

yes it benefits from its own ff

[meager coyote]

sweet so literally no reason to track ff

[sour horizon]

Amg boys some actual balancing to push ST up and small tweak to AoE, feels like a dream

[swift tinsel]

nope

plus its always up

essentially

unless you proc coup and then wait til the buff falls off which would be kinda weird

[regal current]

careful only dooming in here

[sour horizon]

Ah shit

[meager coyote]

can happen between packs, like the previously mentioned scenario

the fucking cooldown manager is so bad for rogue I'm trying to figure out how to track what

[swift tinsel]

well yeah but you're storming as tank gathers and thats granting stacks

[regal current]

outlaw out here claiming sub better, sub claiming outlaw better, both dooming while ass is just trash

[warm marlin]

who the helly claiming outlaw better

[meager coyote]

well I wouldn't storm if at full cp and have coup ready would I? O_O

[swift tinsel]

then you get guaranteed fazed from sectech and disorienting strikes

[sour horizon]

Ahh shit cant believe they nerfed us and only buffed gloomblade dead talent!!

[swift tinsel]

bp exists

[meager coyote]

why not just coup the big target to start building towards next coup 🤔

[lilac stag]

What haptics said.

[bright sundial]

just got home, we got changes?

[meager coyote]

I'm getting a headache reading this apex talent ngl

[regal current]

[sour horizon]

Maximise potential basically, @lilac stag Already said, why blow coup on two 5% mobs when another pack is coming up

[lilac stag]

I can’t wait til we flip the Apex min max from ignoring it to doing it for supercharger.

[sour horizon]

A full run of little things like that will boost your overall

[meager coyote]

yeah already on next topic XD

[sour horizon]

My b

[meager coyote]

all g <3

[sour horizon]

Just woke up and saw the patch notes xD

[warm marlin]

was already a thing

unless u mean telling people

cuz ye flipping it again

[bright sundial]

wait is DS still behind by alot?

[regal current]

yeah it doesnt have perma tricks

[meager coyote]

okay another niche question, what about getting S&D in aoe opener

[pastel geyser]

gloomblade bois rise up

[lilac stag]

The telling.

[pastel geyser]

20% buff

[lilac stag]

Coup does that which is likely your second finisher

[regal current]

yeah

i advise hitting slice and dice at least 3 times in your opener

just in case though

[jaunty hamlet]

was the 10% nerf granted

[warm marlin]

[meager coyote]

asking since previously even in aoe you'd wanna hit an evisc just to get s&d rolling : ) no need to be cheeky

[regal current]

my bar looks like this

[still gazelle]

Is this optimization just for ST? Or also AOE?

[regal current]

only during lust ST

[meager coyote]

guessing "ancient arts" means the ugly black bars next to the char 💀 cos how the fuck else is this tracked

[quaint lodge]

Yea it is

[bleak night]

You can just track it on cdm now too if you want

[meager coyote]

it rly doesn't seem to work well for me ngl

[still gazelle]

And once it's triggered, don't use it again right? It's just used once to procc it?

[blazing night]

Hi everyone! I don't know if this will be useful to anyone else (and you can ignore the colors as that's just reference to my Plater), but these are all the spells and our avoidances as I understand them for M+. Pink (frontal) and Red are unavoidable mechanically, and need to be dodged. Just figured I'd post it here incase anyone wanted it.

[pastel geyser]

[meager coyote]

yeah idk I might be doing something wrong but I don't get coup for quite a bit if I do aoe opener

[north garnet]

Total chad

[regal current]

you wont have to do it again

as you probably wont get it again during the hero

[lilac stag]

Your aoe opener is literally dance+sectec which takes you likely into coup especially if you’re storm / BP while take is pulling

[blazing night]

Yeah, I've bounced back and forth on the prelim evis on the opener because of this.

[swift tinsel]

also nothing is stopping you from hardcasting snd

if you're trying to preserve coup

(you'd have snd if you have coup but anecdotally)

[meager coyote]

yeah I mean in a key it's clean but I'm thinking like if there's a bossfight where we go straight into aoe, didn't actually study up on raid that much (yet)

[lethal thorn]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bleak night]

the thing stopping me is the fact i will die before i put snd on my bars

[void plover]

Theres no sim for sub rogue atm cause its bugged?

[swift tinsel]

wym

[void plover]

Im trying to find the sim for rogue but i dont see it on simulationcract

[true citrus]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[void plover]

Specifically sub

[swift tinsel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

^

[void plover]

Oh ty

[kind edge]

is there any list of bugged things/not working properly stuff with subt?

[swift tinsel]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[kind edge]

thanks bro

[eager yoke]

just woke up and saw the patch notes, it’s not bad ya?

[plush roost]

hefty aoe loss, 6% st gain

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1342596269193039943/9l2o5h.gif

[sour horizon]

RIP Dave

[loud pilot]

why nerf the aoe

[lilac stag]

m0 super spec

ST will get nerfed next week after heroic raid

[sour horizon]

Usually how they balance, our aoe was really good, so nerf aoe buff st

[sour horizon]

Haha likely

TWW s2 redo lets go 😮‍💨

[lilac stag]

It’s been a minute.

Do I update this one?

[stable plume]

Do these changes affect the target count swap from backstab/evis to shuriken storm/BP?

[plush roost]

A discovery has been made

You may be right

LOL

[bleak night]

[astral axle]

hehe

!

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/austin-powers-gif-austin-powers-nigel-powers-not-my-first-rodeo-aint-my-first-rodeo-gif-4961994613924924327

[plush roost]

[bleak night]

[plush roost]

Im not joking when i say this

Substantial

[regal current]

[tribal blade]

nope

[chrome palm]

diddystalker inc

hide in place it will pass

[tribal blade]

i will lose my shit if DS becomes our hero tree

[warm marlin]

it's already over

pack your bags

[sour horizon]

thats the irl nerf to brain power

[warm marlin]

we're crafting swords bud

[plush roost]

unironically a tier where all 3 rogue specs are going to shine

[meager coyote]

wait how are we raid dooming over a st buff

[plush roost]

Its a gearing nightmare

[sour horizon]

playing DS is like playing while constantly suffering a TBI

[meager coyote]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[chrome palm]

this assa cope is unreal im not gonna lie

[plush roost]

until the 22nd when they decide to buff assa 20% and its just the only choice

[plush roost]

look man what if im on vanguard, and dont have a myth mainhand

NEVALUCKYLOOT

COPIUM MAXIMUM

[regal current]

max cope

just make your dagger already

[plush roost]

anyway this is trickster ST from just some dummy logging

and this is DS

enjoy dooming

[sour horizon]

https://tenor.com/view/head-in-sand-ostrich-shy-gif-9579531485211689734

[astral axle]

excited to get dn in my rotation

[warm marlin]

I concede guy

[astral axle]

[warm marlin]

i didn't consider this outcome

you knew all along

[lilac stag]

crafting sword Tuesday.

[regal current]

maybe ill craft a sword to go with my dagger

[raven blaze]

does tuning change our talent tree at all btw?

[regal current]

then im prepared no matter what

[raven blaze]

for raid

[regal current]

the next lebel play

[sour horizon]

[glad bough]

Has anyone ever had an issue with losing combo points when you are hitting a builder at the same time as leaving shadowdance? this has happened to me multiple times now

[robust light]

fysgsgsgd they fuckin didnt touch any other spec ????

[lilac stag]

I’m assuming DS is using so it’ll be amazing.

[glad bough]

not losing therm per say but the builder goes off but no combo points are generated

[chrome palm]

if you queue shadowstrike and then dance expires before your next global, it will bug out your animation

it looks like it goes off but it doesnt

[regal current]

outlaw still dooming

rip

[grand summit]

you think deathstalker will be the sauce now?

[chrome palm]

atrophic carrying rogue so hard its unreal

[glad bough]

thank you! so i am not actually losing anything just doesnt register the shadowstrike

[chrome palm]

you either need more haste or need to use a dance macro

[lucid jackal]

I'm amazed it got this buffed tbqh

But I still have faith in the law

Gonna play it on heroic week either way to get real info

[analog hearth]

this is a nerf on two target? right

[glad bough]

i dont have issues with shadow tech buyt yes i need a bit more haste as well. im around 13%

[chrome palm]

i think its a nerf above 1 target

[lean arch]

Is sub just bis now?

[astral axle]

I genuinely quite like outlaw

But I do not at all like prep for outlaw

[analog hearth]

so lowkey a nerf in raid considering the fights

[meager coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/chimutan-chicken-cillian-murphy-peaky-blinders-gif-15173158631897442446

[chrome palm]

probably a wash

it depends how often youre doing aoe and how many targets

[blazing night]

There were various errors on the last variation due to my bad coding. I fixed those. Sorry. This one is better. Use if you want! Take care andd good luck out there!

[jaunty hamlet]

are we dooming bad or no

need to find my personality for today

[lean arch]

Was sub that bad they needed the buffs or is sub just gonna be really good now?

[regal current]

are you playing rogue?

[jaunty hamlet]

no im frost mage

[regal current]

oh youre gucci then

[jaunty hamlet]

what about sub rogues?

[regal current]

sub rogues, our aoe is down a bit, better st, we still dont have a real reason to be brought to M+, and we will probably have ST nerfed week 2

so we're doing better than arms warrior still

[jaunty hamlet]

oh so rope

ok

[naive zodiac]

interrupting this doom talk to ask if crucible trinket works in sub sims yet

[regal current]

in all honesty subs okay

[stable plume]

Nope

[plush roost]

fluff no it dont king

[naive zodiac]

ok i will just assume its good then ty

[plush roost]

probably!

[jaunty hamlet]

gotta go to the unholy dks and see what they dooming about

[regal current]

well

they got a 20% nerf

[lucid jackal]

Another sub tier? Wow I'm shocked!

[regal current]

but theyre still top in single target

so im sure theyre crying

[sour horizon]

UH is now all ghoul

[jaunty hamlet]

sub will outshine them in raid

[wild jay]

@naive zodiac it doesn't look like it.

[naive zodiac]

crafting sword on tuesday

[sour horizon]

Demo lock 55% nerfs, i dont know anything bout demo but LOL

[regal current]

demo was gross

fuck em,

[stuck arrow]

Who needs AMZ when you can use Shroud, tbh.

I know which one I would take.

[lucid jackal]

WELCOME TO REALITY BROTHER IT'S AN OUTLAW TIER

[robust light]

when my wrist heals ill try outlaw again

[wild jay]

Pachenko machine spec

[robust light]

i do love not good rotation until 30% haste

[tulip silo]

the gambling addiction spec

[frail kindle]

Outlaw tier baby

[regal current]

yeah you gamble if blizz will actually let you be good

[hexed wave]

so do we all gonna craft sword xD

[regal current]

spoiler they wont

[tulip silo]

you gamble that every tier is an outlaw tier whenever you craft a sword

[regal current]

all in on sub baby

https://tenor.com/view/hes-all-in-he's-all-in-he's-all-in-cat-funny-cats-cat-gambling-gif-15778429614619440355

[hexed wave]

i was really waiting for assa buff but idk there is no single fight on raid tier

[woven ruin]

im smooth brain good or bad notes for sub

[hexed wave]

is there any point on stuck as sub

[wild jay]

I do believe sub will be fine from a raid perspective even competitive single target however in m+ it might struggle.

[chrome palm]

every rogue is awful in m+

[regal current]

i queue m+ with a tank

[chrome palm]

rogue is a leech in m+

[regal current]

theyre stuck with a rogue

[chrome palm]

you require the most raid buffs without bringing any

[hexed wave]

yes but they rip our cleave damage as a sub i dont know why but thats happens

[woven ruin]

pins dont tell me what i want to know i dont know sub . needed st? dont care about aoe?

[stuck arrow]

Just play with buddies or push your own key. NBD. I dont think Sub AoE even bad compared to a lot of tiers.

[regal current]

what do you wanna know? your st is better

your aoe is worse

you have a 10% decrease in m+ overall

its right there in the pin

even with a 10% nerf im gonna still beat most people in aoe

but now i can do some boss damage too

[whole epoch]

the m+ king might be ele

best class that went untouched (buffed even)

[sour horizon]

Havoc DH got giga buffs

[wild jay]

They kinda needed them

[regal current]

good news, ret pally discord doesnt have to self nuke

[plush roost]

Ret is uh

Simming very well in ST

i hear

[fleet wharf]

another round of tuning probably a week from now right?

[plush roost]

like 4 more rounds

[sour horizon]

yeah they will do a bunch around Myth release and after

[fleet wharf]

when do they stop fucking with things for rwf?

yea, fair enough

[sour horizon]

when it ends

[fleet wharf]

well I thought they dont like making dramatic changes after hero releases

but ig in tww they did make big changes right before mythic launched

[inner prairie]

To the raid itself but class balance is always happening.

[fleet wharf]

I feel they dont make dramatic changes while RWF is in full swing and guilds are progging bosses

[tribal blade]

yeah those buffs are unreal

[regal current]

all the pallies i been bullying in bgs

gonna show back up

lookin like they went to the gym

[plush roost]

like 115k

LOL

[tribal blade]

notlikethis

i wonder what the meta comp is gonna be

for keys

[karmic harbor]

Just saw the sub buffs

Are we back

[tribal blade]

*and nerfs

[wild jay]

Raid yes, m+ ( not really ).

[karmic harbor]

Oh my God I thought those were bp buffs

Unlacki

[wild jay]

A bit surprised they haven't touched assasination.

[cedar eagle]

they nerfed it for pvp tho LOL

unreal

[tulip silo]

12% buff on law for pvp

can I kill sub rogues now?

[regal current]

if theyre already fighting a ret pally

yeah

if you have a healer, probably

[shrewd lantern]

how much is conc for an r5 nowadays

[eager yoke]

would we end up running gloomblade on trickster?

[stuck arrow]

No.

[lethal pollen]

man just saw the nerfs... wtf man lol

ST great... but come on really nerfing our aoe

[plush roost]

Im not surprised by an aoe nerf tbh, beta rogue did some disgusting things in aoe

[eager yoke]

for now. wouldnt be surprised atp to see another nerf after 1st week of raid

[lethal pollen]

stop it taro

stop it

i dont wnana hear your crap XD

[plush roost]

Hes not wrong

[lethal pollen]

its the only button we press atleast let us hit it hard

OF COURSE HES NOT WRONG!!!! but i want him to be wrong so bad

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk why anyone is surprised aoe got nerfed

[eager yoke]

i want to be wrong myself

[woven ruin]

why not wrong?

just asking to learn sub

[lethal pollen]

ontop of that nerfing our pvp damage lol

wtf!!!

[eager yoke]

its outlaw propaganda

[lethal pollen]

i refuse to play outlaw!!!

[stuck arrow]

I mean that kind of needed to happen.

I literally killed multiple people with nimble splash only as collateral to the thing I was actually trying to kill.

[lethal pollen]

was always sin.. the one time i go sub it gets nerfed.. i think im the problem

[mint bobcat]

Is outlaw really looking like it has a better outlook or is this just dooming? Outlaw numbers don't look good what am I missing.

[lethal pollen]

ya but then a DK comes and just poops on you

[distant sage]

people are dooming waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much over this

[mint bobcat]

Speeking from a strictly PvE perspective.

[pearl swan]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[eager yoke]

yeah its too early to doom tbh raid not even out and there's still 3 rounds of upcoming tuning

[shrewd lantern]

we tuned off m0 numbers

why is sub aoe being nerfed

[distant sage]

people will swap from sub to outlaw just to do less dmg cuz they play it worse(not everyone but 95% of the players)

[mint bobcat]

If you play outlaw you are also hard comitting since you need daggers for the other specs. I'll take the gamble that Sub/assass is competitive over just betting on outlaw.

[shrewd lantern]

1 wep=hard commit

[stuck arrow]

And OL is OL - and this ST damage if you have progression style downtime is atrocious.

[shrewd lantern]

LOL

[slender glade]

what do we use our sparks to craft?

[mint bobcat]

I mean if you are going early myth weapons or craft it's certainly not nothing.

[hushed roost]

sparks are also not as valuable this season so youll be fine

[slender glade]

wep ?

[smoky blaze]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/s4htFP3NkmS39hw9unU5gt with overrided values

[shrewd lantern]

its not a hard commit

its a minor loss for a week

at most

[mint bobcat]

You do you boo

[shrewd lantern]

If you like outlaw play outlaw

[distant sage]

if you want to plat sub or assa just craft dagger if u get a myth one just put the crafted in the offhand with the embelishment

[distant sage]

legit

[hushed roost]

are you guys just crafting belt embellishment before raid?

err arcanoweave with 2nd pair of sparks*

[distant sage]

you can craft with veteran crest sparkless

if u want embelishemnt for cheap

[shrewd lantern]

people unironically thinking a hero wep instad of myth week 1 is that big a deal

[keen geode]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[distant sage]

u mean heroic week or season 1 week

[shrewd lantern]

heroic week

[mint bobcat]

lol didn't realize min maxing wasn't allowed here, I'll check myself XD

[shrewd lantern]

this pic

basically

[mint bobcat]

"Ohhh gotem" you right now

[distant sage]

i mean if you can get anything from the raid very nice if u cant just spam m+ for heroic gear

[shrewd lantern]

i mean the meme is just saying

hard commit

its a minor one at best

[distant sage]

yeye im just saying generally

[mint bobcat]

Being contrarian is so cool though, let him cook

[shrewd lantern]

and you'll only have to wait till the reset after to craft another anyway

[mint bobcat]

He's in the lab right now

[steel sierra]

I'm at 20 percent haste yet raidbots keeps simming my haste gear over crit/mastery gear of the same ilvl. Even stat weights has haste significantly lower than all other secondary stats, any idea?

[grand summit]

So we still going trickster

or is it Deathstalker turn

[viscid stirrup]

so do the sub changes mean we use shadowstrike at 5 targets in aoe now or something?

[distant sage]

nah maybe on 3 on prio target

[tribal blade]

hell no, storm generates way more CP

[viscid stirrup]

ahhh ok im looking at the updated wowhead guide now. i swear it was at 4 targets last weekend. and coup de grace was to be avoided during sd if possible

[bronze nimbus]

How do all three specs look in comparison to each other with these changes?

[distant sage]

they are fine besides ass

[viscid stirrup]

are we still overcapping shadowstrike for st?

[distant sage]

thats only in lust i think

[tribal blade]

LOL i have no idea where you got those from, but nah

oh are you talking about the apex optimization

[willow knoll]

Wouldn't you want cdg in SD

I mean, I just can't see a world where you wouldn't want that in the SD window.

But I'm also dumb

[tribal blade]

i'm reading your original post now and realize you're talking about the apex, you made it sound like you use strike instead of storm to generate CPs on 4-5 targets

[willow knoll]

Man midnight making me depressed

[tribal blade]

you don't play around it, but yes it's good to cast coup in dance

[willow knoll]

Just came to WoW wanting to play a nuanced spec

Instead got hit with Midnight

[supple pawn]

How big are the nerfs hitting?

[willow knoll]

Idk I think they're fine honestly.

Most of people upset feels like doomposting

[alpine wraith]

check pin

some st buff some aoe nerf

[supple pawn]

What's CGD?

[willow knoll]

I can't say I'm happy about it.

[supple pawn]

Oh! Okay

[willow knoll]

I'd of rather had juicy BPs instead of a 6 percent ST increase

coup de grace

im just lazy

[supple pawn]

BPs?

[willow knoll]

black powder

AOE in general, shuriken got hit too

[supple pawn]

Oh, gotcha

Tbf it was a bit busted

[willow knoll]

I mean it's probably fine-ish.

[supple pawn]

MODS

[gleaming fiber]

MOTS

[grand summit]

https://tenor.com/view/jerry-meme-tom-and-jerry-meme-jerry-points-get-a-load-of-this-guy-this-guy-gif-11384860625931393733

[willow knoll]

I just don't want to take any overall nerf.

[grand summit]

GET A LOAD OF THIS GUY

[supple pawn]

Understandable

[willow knoll]

I mean we're like middle of the road before, or slightly upper.

What's the point.

[tribal blade]

nah we were A-tier in aoe for sure

[supple pawn]

My main got buffed I guess

[sage pond]

Ive had more than 10% dmg lead over any other class in my live servers dungeon runs. Its fine

[supple pawn]

What about for ST?

[willow knoll]

Yeah but not S and our ST was decent but not overly strong

Like they could have just left us alone

[red pewter]

The other classes that took hits were pretty much our competition for m+. Sub is fine. Still 3 weeks left of tuning before we can actually say what's good/ pre .5 patch meta

[tribal blade]

not sure where most people were putting us for raid, but it wasn't terrrible

[red pewter]

If you secure title before .5 patch kudos to you and your team

[gaunt totem]

We were crushing every pack in aoe , cd optional lol

[dense geode]

@teal coral theres a bot pls help

[supple pawn]

Yeah, shadowblades is too long for most packs was a complaint of mine lmao

[willow knoll]

Idk I'm just in this weird spot as a newer person where I really only like rogue from a vibe POV but my class is also 2 buttons now and just took a probable nerf which is kind of adding salt in a wound.

[supple pawn]

Feels good to press but feels bad to have to sit on 6 seconds of blades and let it just tick down with nothing to hir

[tribal blade]

that's an M0 problem

[gaunt totem]

Yea honestly boss damage buff feels good, still going to be fine in aoe

[tribal blade]

you won't have that issue in real content

[supple pawn]

That's true

[red pewter]

May be a 2 button class but there's still people that are going to manage to desync CD's enough that they lose multiple sec tach/shadow dances during a fight. Also, not really a nerf. Quid pro quo. ST for AOE. Lose a lil time on trash, gain a lil time on bosses. Not the end of the world

[viscid stirrup]

are we still wasting cp in st to fish for secret tech stacks tho?

[supple pawn]

It was also sort of two button before if I'm not mistaken, so was Fire mage which is also clowned on for having no buttons

[red pewter]

0.o

[supple pawn]

Don't quote me I don't main sub 😭

[distant sage]

hell nah

[red pewter]

Was definitely not a 2 button spec lmao

Was one of the most complicated specs in the game to play perfectly

[distant sage]

opener was mega bloated

[willow knoll]

Maybe, I feel like people who think buttons being nothing more than filler kind of miss the point of class complexity as a theme.

[distant sage]

dont worry sub will take a few brain cells to play

[willow knoll]

The point of having to keep track of more stuff is so you can have a higher skill ceiling. I feel like good class design rewards the better player.

Bad class design makes all the players of the same spec marginally different at best with DPS.

[gaunt totem]

You didn’t though, you just bind that shit in one macro and call it skill

[silver hearth]

can someone explain to me the ancient arts thing? like you're talking to a 5 year old

[red pewter]

Skill ceiling didn't really get lowered that much tbh. The floor just got raised, gigantically

[willow knoll]

Yeah maybe I'm just doomposting and being a depressed bitch tbh

I'm open to it.

[distant sage]

its a burst spec if you timings are off you will parse grey/green and it will feel like crap

[red pewter]

Like I said, there are still going to be plenty of people who desync CD's enough to lose multiple sec tech/dances during a fight

[night sparrow]

If you have 5 stacks of ultr4d4rk after you sent your BOOM then you can BOOM right after

[hushed roost]

the funny thing is people are pretending that theyre gonna switch to outlaw, just put the shadow blades macro on the bar lil bro

[willow knoll]

I'm not switching to that gang ass spec

ever

lmao

[hushed roost]

exactly

[rich canopy]

Is there a way to fix Shadow Dance being unusable if you cancel aura it?

[distant sage]

its just old shadowcraft but more guaranteed

[red pewter]

It would be fun to play, if it wasn't so shit

[silver hearth]

I never played sub

[willow knoll]

Assa on the other hand, I really like.

I just want it to be buffed

[red pewter]

Why/how would you cancel aura dance

[hushed roost]

yeah i love assa too its very fun

[rich canopy]

To restealth

[red pewter]

I mean, if you're talking about pvp that's the cost of living when you have to vanish

[silver hearth]

so during lust you keep pressing shadow strike even on full cp until you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques, then spender twice?

[distant sage]

when you have full combo points and 5 or more shadow technique stacks you instantly refill your combo points

[rich canopy]

What? You do it all the time in the world

[red pewter]

mmmmmm

[rich canopy]

Mobs die in 2 seconds and you're blocked out of stealth for the remainder of Last Dance

[red pewter]

So you want to use 2 seconds of a CD

Cancel aura it

and get 4 seconds back

No

You can't do that

[supple pawn]

Not at all saying it's simple. Definitely not. Just that it felt a little low buttons from how I understood

Symbols and Dance are different buttons, but you pressed them together anyways. Same for Sectech.

I also do want to note that in TWW I played Deathstalker, I have no clue how Trickster played back then. In AOE you would have darkest night and ST you'd have cut the witnesses. Rupture back then too which I forgot for a moment

Admittedly I don't remember how complex the opener was, as it was just an alt of mine but that was the gist I got. Besides Rupture, Dance/Blades still seems pretty Shadowstrike/Eviscerate heavy. Less complex now in that regard due to lack of apex/shadow techniques tracking, but also didn't have to track Lingering Shadow, Sectech/Dance CDRs for pulls or Rupture

I do want to preface this is just how it comes off to me, I don't main this spec so

[distant sage]

in cds you will generate a lot of them by pressing shadow strike you "force the proc" when you have 5 or more

[supple pawn]

Though I'm considering to reroll for raid

[rich canopy]

Idk if you're intentionally being dumb, but you can't use your second charge of dance if you cancel the first

[silver hearth]

I still don't get it

[distant sage]

whats confusing you

[supple pawn]

Tldr

7+ shadow techniques at full combo points -> apex proc

Shadowstrike makes 2 shadow techniques

Shadowstrike at 7 points makes apex proc if you have 5 shadow techniques (5 + 2 = 7)

[gaunt totem]

Literally just track ancient arts

[supple pawn]

Wait

That's the minmax

Sorry just realised you meant the apex as a whole 😭

[silver hearth]

so shadowstrike until 7 or more shadow techniques then spender twice?

[supple pawn]

Probably still fucked it up anyways

[distant sage]

see the first photo how i have 7 stacks i pressed shadowstrike and how the refund mechinic is guaranteed to proc

[red pewter]

The situation you're describing makes absolutely no sense. Like....none. You're complaining about cancel aura on your dance 2 seconds into because the mob died.....so you can stealth....just to open up on another mob and go back into dance. Why wouldn't you just......shadow step to the mob and continue with your dance...or walk.....to the next mob....

[silver hearth]

is 7 the magic number? You always shadowstrike to 7 shadow techniques during BL?

[strong bison]

im assuming its not worth crafting dark moon dominion hunt without another craft with hunt?

[red pewter]

Okay

I'll put it in smooth brain terms

[distant sage]

you can do it at 5 i think thats to lowest

[soft summit]

what # haste we need again?

[silver hearth]

18

[distant sage]

18%

[red pewter]

Don't cancel aura your shadow dance. There's never a situation in which that is the right thing to do. Done, end of convo

[night sparrow]

42

[red pewter]

DA MEANIN OF LIFE

[gaunt totem]

42% haste sounds right

[night sparrow]

So you can fit 7 sectec during blades with lust

OP

[tribal blade]

684

don't do %s

do exact numbers

since we're breakpointing

[faint hemlock]

Subtlety
Backstab/Gloomblade damage increased by 20%.
Shadowstrike damage increased by 15%.
Eviscerate damage increased by 8%.
Melee auto-attack damage increased by 15%.
Black Powder damage reduced by 12%.
Potent Powder bonus Black Powder damage reduced to 20% of Mastery (was 30%).
Trickster: Unseen Blade damage increased by 20%.
Trickster: Nimble Flurry effect reduced to 50% of listed attack damage (was 65%).
Trickster: Clever Combatant crit bonus for Shuriken Storm reduced to 10% (was 15%).

Anyone now total dps increase from buffs on 17 March?

[night sparrow]

684% haste seems a bit high but still fair

[soft summit]

pretty sure its a dps loss Noll

[analog hearth]

check pin

[supple pawn]

Pins

[tribal blade]

youarefunnyguy 😉

[strong bison]

Seems to be about a 6% buff for pure ST.

alah pin

[supple pawn]

Is deathstalker still dead in a ditch?

[tribal blade]

need more people to post the tuning in here

[gaunt totem]

It’s this much more damages

[night sparrow]

I hate having fun tho

[red pewter]

Deathstalker is dozens of damage behind trickster

[strong bison]

my stalka

[red pewter]

And absolute garbage to play in anything that requires a target swap

[distant sage]

thats ds for you

[night sparrow]

Check 📌

[strong bison]

next person to type in chat has ligma and cant read for the rest of eternity

[red pewter]

I CANT READ

[supple pawn]

A worthy sacrifice

[red pewter]

What's wrong with having ligma though.

[supple pawn]

Can't you just cloak it off?

[strong bison]

azeroth buyers club

[supple pawn]

Checkmate nerd

[red pewter]

Sheeeeee

[chrome palm]

check back in a few days

[bleak night]

dont do it pls

stop this line of investigation

its not too late

[chrome palm]

apparently unshakeable drive did not work in sims

so who knows

[red pewter]

Feely craft says we should stick deathstalker in a closet and forget about it

Please

[willow knoll]

man idk if raidbots are messed up but adding potent powder or first dance and taking away weaonmaster or veiltouched for it is like a 3K DPS loss or me

[red pewter]

What is the fight length you're simming

[willow knoll]

uhh

5 mins, I left it on default

[red pewter]

Iunno, weird. First dance is doo doo for anything over 3 minutes ish anyways unless there's a downtime rp window to get it back

[willow knoll]

oh patchwerk is why probably

actually im sure thats why

Yeah was thinking that

Like when do you have 6 seconds between combat

[red pewter]

It's nice in m+. Meh in raid

Pretty sure highest simming spec doesn't take it

[willow knoll]

Even in M+ though I feel like they're always pulling mobs

unless you just want to sit in stealth for a bit longer

[red pewter]

Can meld between pulls to get it up, vanish, lot's of ways.

[brisk creek]

are we crafting our weapons yet or waiting until we see what drops from raid / vault?

[red pewter]

I'd only do that for the giant packs that you're gonna have your blades window on for

[willow knoll]

I'll try it out

[red pewter]

For regular packs it's not that big of a deal

Without shadow blades up for it, first dance is even more doo doo

[willow knoll]

I crafted the offhand dagger

using it as a main right now but it's supposedly BIS anyways later

[red pewter]

Who knows

[brisk creek]

the OH and MH ones are different?

[red pewter]

BiS lists are bait kinda

Just sim the stuff you get

and fill in with crafts

[viscid stirrup]

is it tho? when was the last time a tank gave you 6 secs between pulls? not to mention the random aoe that breaks out of stealth in the new dungeons

[red pewter]

Would call for it all the time before mini boss that came before last boss in HoA so we could 1 phase it. /shrug. Less useful in pugs is fair to say

[viscid stirrup]

sure. but even with friends/guildies, it goes against what everyone usually likes to do. its not a good mechanic for other classes

[obtuse relic]

#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Secret Technique

[viscid stirrup]

youre either doing less damage, or yelling at people to slow down

[obtuse relic]

should i remove shadow dance from this?

i mean shadow blades**

[red pewter]

That's fair. You could probably move the point in last dance over to grab 1/2 finality and notice a little increase in non organized groups

Depends on how big the first pull of the dungeon is though where you have all the goodies + lust up. Lot of damage there

[viscid stirrup]

or they could just redesign it to not rely on combat. "since the lasty time you used SD" bam, problem solved

[red pewter]

Would make it a pretty big problem in raid

And have to be rebalanced

[viscid stirrup]

thats their job?

[red pewter]

Not saying it isn't, just saying if they did that you're probably not gonna get the result you're looking for

[viscid stirrup]

no, it would. im not looking for more damage. im looking for less mechanics tied to how other players want to play the game

[red pewter]

Perhaps play a single player game. Delves exist

[viscid stirrup]

so youre okay with begging your tank to play slower?

[fair stump]

Is a 259 crafted weapon worth 20k? lol

[vapid trellis]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[drifting ether]

Hey guys are yous fitting in 8 globals inside your dance window without first dance? Sim is saying 8 but i can only hit 7

[red pewter]

It's really not that big of a deal. Just drop first dance and take the point in finality and not worry about it.

[eager yoke]

chief can u send me your plater

[eager yoke]

what’s ur haste?

[viscid stirrup]

but first dance makes the gameplay feel better. its just needs a way to get into it better. im not saying the talent is bed

bad

[red pewter]

What's more yikes is that sim has you doing a dance without a single ancient arts proc

[drifting ether]

628 18%

[red pewter]

What's your crit?

Pretty rare to have to shadow trike x2 before a finisher during dance

[soft summit]

I think we want 700... at least my sims only want haste/mastery up till then

[red pewter]

Even more rare to not get an ancient arts proc

[drifting ether]

Oh wait thats my bad i simmed with blood lust

Still shows with 8 globals without bloodlust

[red pewter]

I'm higher haste than you and struggling to fit 7 globals in

8 seems cray cray

That's on dummy though

What flask does it have you using?

[soft summit]

maybe its including first dance?

[red pewter]

I can fit 12 in on dummy with last dance

And yeah, 8 without

[drifting ether]

Nah no first dance and no consumables

[red pewter]

I did 8 on dummy without about .4 sec left on danace

Dance*

22% haste

[supple pawn]

Deathstalker's Mark rework idea:

3 charges. 25 sec CD. Increases your damage by 15% for 8 seconds and generates 25 focus

[red pewter]

Just test it out, checks out. 8 gcd's isn't too much to ask for

I think that bumps up to 9 or so with lust

Can't go much beyond that unless they let us go below .8 sec gcd

[red pewter]

With 22% haste no consumables all that yaddi yadda, pretty comfortably able to hit 8 GCD's during dance

[drifting ether]

Yeah that must be the case unless im doing something wrong i cant seam to get that extra global

[inland glacier]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hollow spear]

.8 second gcd isn't even a thing on sub, only on outlaw

[grizzled terrace]

How big is the nerf for sub rogue

[narrow hemlock]

its pinned

[sullen sparrow]

You're pressing shadow dance while still on global cooldown.

Use a macro to shadow dance + secret technique in one button press and then make sure you're not on gcd when you press it.

[drifting ether]

I fucking got it thank you so much didnt realise you had to delay

Accusing my swearing been trying to work it out for hours

[shadow snow]

Did sub do so much dmg we needed a nerf? What happened and we got hit

[dim stream]

big nerf for us in m+?

sad

[shadow snow]

Yeah

8-10% dmg nerf

We got ST dmg tho

[dim stream]

it was not that mmuch op, for %8-10

[regal current]

we lost a lot of fluff dps for aoe padding

and gained st

itll be fine

when they nerf our ST next week for mythic week i'll doom

[shrewd lantern]

i mean our aoe was pretty stronk

[shadow snow]

This nerf should have happened if we did too much aoe

Not just strong

[shrewd lantern]

i mean were you not gapping people

on aoe pulls

[shadow snow]

I gap people playing prot pala, that does not mean nerf

[verbal kelp]

In light of recent tuning, is it fair to say that subtlety is best for raid and outlaw for m+, or is sub still better for pushing keys too?

[shadow snow]

People just suck at the game

[shrewd lantern]

itsa buff in raid at least

[sharp sapphire]

So shadowstriking in full combo points to proc apex makes mores sense now

[regal current]

i was gapping literally every single person

it was nuts

[austere spear]

only during lust

[regal current]

double or more

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk i smelled an aoe nerf coming

first week of m0

[regal current]

yeah

im happy it wasnt worse

[open coyote]

i feel like the issue is that in M0 we absolutely melted everything because the aoe pulls were roughtly the perfect timing for our cd's

[regal current]

I expected a way bigger nerf

these nerfs arent based on m0s

[open coyote]

but now that we start m+ our cd's are gonna wear off during the aoe pull and we're gonna be gutted

[regal current]

its based on beta

[open coyote]

ah i am very wrong then

[regal current]

idk im happy its not worse

[shrewd lantern]

yeah on smaller packs its not as big

since unseen got buffed etc

[open coyote]

were we really that strong on the beta?

[onyx trail]

How does our Tierset perform compared to other specs

[shadow snow]

Do you think sub is still bis for m+ ?

[regal current]

compared to other rogues?

or in general?

[shadow snow]

Yeah

[fleet wharf]

if you care that much about m+ go reroll something else

[shadow snow]

Other rogues

[fleet wharf]

rogues aren't too hot for m+

[regal current]

compared to other rogues i think outlaw is better with perfect uptime

but

[shrewd lantern]

lmao yeah

[regal current]

its a lot harder to pull off

and any downtime and youre cooked

ass is garbage atm

[shrewd lantern]

issue with rogue is you're fighting dks for the melee spot

who are just better

[fleet wharf]

you mean any other class that offers more utility+raidbuff

[shadow snow]

Yeah they are cause they also bring something to the table besides dps

[shrewd lantern]

ok thats cope

[fleet wharf]

yea, util and raidbuffs

[shrewd lantern]

hunter utility

last tier

so much utility

[regal current]

unless you're like top 1% nobody really cares

[fleet wharf]

were hunters meta?

[regal current]

just play what you want, and do your best

make a friend with a tank or healer to speed up joining a group

easy peasy

[keen galleon]

Can make rogue work regardless

[shrewd lantern]

dk just goes what rogue does

but better

doesnt matter outside of the top top end

regardless

[regal current]

yeah but dks smell bro

[fleet wharf]

ok i'll play devil's advocate. at least assa got some "funnel" left

[regal current]

imagine having to smell a guy who stands in death and decay all the time

[shrewd lantern]

funnel

doesnt dh do it better

[devout panther]

Are we playing sub for raid?

[regal current]

arcane mage

for funnel

[fleet wharf]

I thought they lost most of that ability actually

but I don't really play much DH so I wouldn't know

[shrewd lantern]

they lost their tier