subtlety

[hollow spear]

Maybe it's different now after the changes

[hot seal]

Its pretty easy now to play

But so is sub right. And choosing when u deal dmg over being punished when downtime

[hollow spear]

seeing someone like zac play was almost like witnessing black voodoo magic

no clue how he managed to get the dps out

[jaunty heath]

even during RWF they dont play outlaw on bosses whcih are better

[hot seal]

Also because of stats and items

[jaunty heath]

like council thios tier or w/e bosses previous tiers

[hot seal]

Yeh cuz of the items and stats

They have to brick a rogue

To play optimanspex

Spec

[hollow spear]

didn't exile try law on last tier's council?

[jaunty heath]

they always try and than they swap it ou

out

[hollow spear]

I could swear someone in the top 3 did it

Probably also a muscle memory thing

[hot seal]

I think in top 3 all 3 spcs were played

On council

[hollow spear]

They're way above average on all three specs

But probably still worse on law than the other two

Relative to their own peak skill level

[tepid trellis]

he did like 3 pulls as outlaw then went back to assa

[jaunty heath]

thats what im saying

[hollow spear]

outlaw prog spec confirmed

[jaunty heath]

they always try and than they are ok not worth

[hollow spear]

kinda sad, but I get it

they really need to take away this weapon restriction

[jaunty heath]

i would play ol only if majority in top100 guild would play it

[keen dome]

🙏

[alpine wraith]

hey at least he tried

[hot seal]

What they need to do

Is make outlaw busted

If not. Sub it is

[jaunty heath]

its not like we did not play outlaw in past in raids

[azure thicket]

idk though

it's outlaw

only thing to do is farm veteran crests i think

[jaunty heath]

imagine using second spark on outlaw weapon

[azure thicket]

is normal actually a thing this early in the season

[jaunty heath]

that would go hard

[azure thicket]

or still just clear it in 1 raid night

[hot seal]

I dont seem to properly understand why we are using shadowstrike to trigger apex talent

Whats the advantage of it?

Wouldt we get the combo points the shadowstrike after anyway?

Or we sending them back to back?

[lilac stag]

Way to be a follower. If you want to run it just run it.

[vale pine]

i wouldn't rly make any predictions

sub atm looks good because stuff dies fast

[karmic harbor]

As Trickster: Use Shadowstrike even if you are on full combo points if you have 5 or more stacks of Shadow Techniques up to trigger Ancient Arts. Only during Shadow Dance on low target counts (at maximum 3 targets).

bro im straight up killing myself

in minecraft

[vale pine]

you only need to do it during bloodlust

and its kinda low impact

so not doing is fine too

[karmic harbor]

is the sub apl in raidbots correct?

[vale pine]

it is

#1065728795455266888 message

[karmic harbor]

ty fuu

[vale pine]

but there are some small optimizations

that are iirc not on raidbots yet

[iron whale]

doesn't Shadow Dance increase damage dealt anymore?

[hot seal]

Mainly looking for the “why”

[karmic harbor]

does it matter when i use sec tech, as long as its during a dance window?

[hot seal]

Like i dont see to understand the interaction making it more worth

[iron whale]

so I guess subterfuge is not worth speccing?

[vale pine]

worth it means 0.2% dps

[hot seal]

Haha fair, im just trying to understand

[vale pine]

the reason why the optimization is relevant is the damage is slightly higher

it is a lot more relevant on deathstalker, you would line it up to dn

for trickster it seemed to be stronger initially but after bugfixes and implementation fixes to spells

it shifted towards a very neutral point, removing it entirely becomes resonable

the bloodlust optimization is simple enough and opens up some potential for further optimization

[hot seal]

Gotcha, so probably just dont worry about it untill im reclearing and parsing

[vale pine]

and its a marginal gain

so

not bad

[hot seal]

Cheers

[raven blaze]

wait are we supposed to use mind numbing poison lol ive been using atrophic

i didnt realize mind numbing also decreased their attack speed

[wheat edge]

numbing reduces damage the tank takes
atro reduces damage the group takes
also both are good and it doesnt really matter until higher keys etc

but yeah numbing does reduce a fair bit of damage the tank takes from white swings from mobs

[raven blaze]

neat

in raid do you need to press shiv?

[wheat edge]

(in raid you should always use atro tho, unless you are more than 1 rogue then I guess 1 can use atro and the other numbing)

[north schooner]

since you are here, there is a typo on wowhead's talent builds page for sub

[vale pine]

moment, will fix

[worldly jetty]

Is sub the best dungon spec atm for rogues ?

[vale pine]

kinda yes

[worldly jetty]

Ok 🙂

[vale osprey]

There's so many I've noticed this season across like all the guides

[vale pine]

thanks, fixed

[vale pine]

haha, means you can be sure they are not written by ai

[vale osprey]

God bless 🙏

[hollow spear]

If they haven't fixed it, atro should still stack

[wheat edge]

that is fixed 🙂

[hollow spear]

RIP

[crystal bone]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1476887002019270761/Midnight_s1_fixed.png

[vale pine]

they fixed all the fun stuff

raid wide no parry too

(tho thats old news)

[hollow spear]

ok unc

back to bed

[lilac stag]

the most utility we’ve brought was unintended.

[alpine wraith]

we also dont get cps from people's crits anymore !

[hollow spear]

snd isn't our only finisher anymore either

what has the world come to

[iron whale]

is it ok to play 1h in off hand for subtlety?

[hollow spear]

no

[short radish]

not unless you like doing damage

[azure whale]

have you guys crafted anything yet or are you waiting to see wich spec gets buffed on the patch notes next week?

[iron whale]

what"breaks" it?
just curious to understand how it works

[short radish]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[short radish]

i crafted one because im gonna always use the weap

so may as wel get ahead and craft it

[lilac stag]

you are from the future so that tracks

[short radish]

👍

[hollow spear]

didn't know Aussie were such certified outlaw haters

[haughty mural]

The future is now in down under

[short radish]

like every nation, we hate our roots and where we came from

[lilac stag]

No guns

it was fine when it was carrots.

[hollow spear]

I didn't want to say it

[haughty mural]

[short radish]

[lilac stag]

[dry flame]

is there a reason NOT to use our adventure crests to upgrade blue gear we have remaining ?

[raven blaze]

u can turn it into veteran crests to skip farming

[crystal bone]

send em or upgrade to vet ye

[dry flame]

ty bros

[vocal pecan]

havent played wow in a bit... if i craft a dagger this week can i recraft the same dagger later with a hero/myth dawncrest?

[short radish]

that info is on the wowhead guides

just check through all of them

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[vocal pecan]

i came here from there. doesn't say anything about recrafting the same dagger

[native zodiac]

Yes

[vocal pecan]

tysm

[rigid torrent]

"can I craft the weapon with the two sparks? Or do I have to wait for the release of the mythic raid? In the wowhead guide, Fuu wrote to craft the weapon and the belt.

[dry flame]

Later on?

[vocal pecan]

i dont know if thats directed to me but thats not what i asked, even slightly

[raven blaze]

@dry flame

[raven blaze]

why belt?

[lilac stag]

You don’t craft belt. That’s just “bis endgame setup”

You craft lost stat budget you have a low item level on. Usually cloak, wrists, belt or jewelry

[raven blaze]

thats what i thought

that replacing lowest item level piece specifically on a low stat slot is best

with arcanoweave lining

for example if u didnt get cape then doing cape

not just "do the belt"

[lilac stag]

[dry flame]

That wasn't on the vendor 2hen I checked earlier hmm

[oblique apex]

my question seems to be answered right as iam typing. But what do experts here say about the recommendation from perfecto (maxroll) to craft ring and bracers with 2 arcanoweave linings? seems to me thats somethin to craft in a perfect endgame world, right?

the go to craft is weapon from what i read here

[lilac stag]

holy fuck

Unless you’re Stealthi you won’t have bis gear week 1 or raid

[dry flame]

Or month 1

[oblique apex]

or 5 month in 😄

[lilac stag]

If you’re waiting a month to craft after raid you have bigger issues

[dry flame]

For rogue specifically, it's not thar complicated, you just craft a main hand and then fit your needs

[lilac stag]

craft dagger (not the int one) and use vet badges to craft second embellishment for next week. Save the 2nd spark.

[raven blaze]

how much of a dps gain is crafting arcanoweave lining with veteran crests?

[lilac stag]

also don’t be cheap. If you’re planing on mythic raiding you should be going into heroic ready to raid to make clearing as painless as possible. Trolling over saving 12k gold or whatever it is.

[exotic steeple]

capped out on vet crests now. random preys always were the same two smh

[raven blaze]

'

[alpine wraith]

yea even as M raiders first week the sooner you can clear the better because some HC bosses are going to be quite a challenge

[raven blaze]

what to do to make it the veteran version

[wheat edge]

Also just having a higher level dagger is fun, people worry more about 0.000001% optimizations over just enjoying the game a lot of the time

[alpine wraith]

well some people are explicitly told not to craft

not much they can do

[wheat edge]

I can understand that at the absolute apex level, but if you arent in one of those guilds I dont really see the reasoning

But it is what it is

[raven blaze]

how do i sim the arcanoweave lining gear

i cant put it in raidbots topgear

[lilac stag]

RWF does it with 80 splits. Clearly we must with 2 alts

[wheat edge]

especially once m+ releases, if I am gonna do 50+ keys week one, not having my dagger crafted is gonna be miserable

[azure whale]

regarding crafing since you are talking about it, is dagger usable in outlaw as well, because in the guide it says the craft is a sword? anyone knows this? if i craft the dagger is it fine for outlaw as well? thanks

[lilac stag]

add the crafted item. Hit the + icon under it

[raven blaze]

i did that

it only goes to 233

i added more veteran crests

[wheat edge]

that is the biggest issue with outlaw, both assa and sub uses a dagger but outlaw needs a 1 hander so it clashes

[raven blaze]

and it still wont let me upgrade it to 250

[reef walrus]

crafted dagger is useful for OH for outlaw

but it's going to be significantly worse than crafting a slower 1H for outlaw specifically

[azure whale]

omg i hate this

[lilac stag]

Outlaw does its own thing. Not a real rogue.

[chrome palm]

Survival getting dagger before outlaw

Just kill this awful class at this point

[lilac stag]

yes. Kill outlaw.

[chrome palm]

They’re making it a tank spec

2000%

[raven blaze]

i get told to sim it myself but when i dont know how and get stuck in a menu nobody helps

[hazy breach]

Add another item

[lilac stag]

you were told how

[raven blaze]

why cant i sim with cloak? i want to sim the cloak

[hazy breach]

Add the cloak again

[raven blaze]

i literally sent screenshots of the button you are telling me to click not existing

[hazy breach]

But at higher ilv

[chrome palm]

Isn’t courtly cloak is the shitty one you craft with lower tier crests

[raven blaze]

you should be able to craft it with veteran

[willow knoll]

idk why, cant find arcanoweave with courtly on raidbots lma

arcano doesn't pop up for an enchant for me

on it

[chrome palm]

You gotta put 250 in the box at the top

[raven blaze]

you mean like this?

already did that

[lilac stag]

It’s literally right on your screen if you read the screen shots you’re posting.

[raven blaze]

??

233?

thats adventurer

[chrome palm]

Maybe that shits bugged gg

Can you try doing a purple cloak at 250

If it even goes that low

[lilac stag]

Throw it to whatever max is or add the spark cloak at 250.

[raven blaze]

misclicked and now i gotta resim the page gg

[lilac stag]

Today I just can’t with people being so obsessed overs adv/vet gear

https://tenor.com/view/i-think-you-should-leave-tim-robinson-itysl-netflix-comedy-gif-18172793565512865477

[raven blaze]

you literally cant read and were an asshole and told me to do shit then when i tried to follow your instructions and the site didnt work you did not help me

[chrome palm]

oh i see

[lilac stag]

Eat a snickers dude

[chrome palm]

you cant craft veteran to 250

you can only upgrade

veteran craft only goes to 246

[raven blaze]

so which menu is lying

so i had to put 246 in the box?

[chrome palm]

its not lying

its in your screenshot

you probably read the 250 part above that which is about upgrading regular non crafted gear

[raven blaze]

ah

yea i did ur right

[willow knoll]

I mean WoW has new people and when you come to the rogue discord and tell people to 'Sim themselves' and tell them what to build and then they try to do that.

Idk saying stuff like 'I can't with PeoPLE aBout vet GeaR' comes off as tone deaf

Like do you just hang out in the rogue discord all day?

Why else are you here lmao

[chrome palm]

you may want to wait until next week to send veteran tho

[lilac stag]

Nope. Just when my Aussie ice oce peeps are here.

[raven blaze]

i already sent veteran on my mythic gear LOL so this is about doing this preraid in the morning

with the next lockouts 100

[visual lark]

My biggest concern with craft is that we get giga nerfed and outlaw will be meta, I wouldn’t care if I didn’t have a trial in a guild

[willow knoll]

https://tenor.com/view/gavin-meme-gavin-meme-disappointed-annoyed-gif-546450754415092863

Right.

Anyways lol

[lilac stag]

outlaw and meta.

[chrome palm]

its big and its happening

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/airplane-first-time-nervous-80s-movies-gif-19769548

[chrome palm]

the long arm of the law will come down harshly on dagger wielders

[raven blaze]

let it be known, its about 350~400 dps

for arcanoweave lining all things equal

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/happy-tree-friends-htf-russell-read-look-gif-6071517165404213962

Mythic Week

[raven blaze]

when i make the cape, can i make it shitty and then upgrade it for free to 240

to save crests

and does embellishment scale with item level at all

[chrome palm]

embellishment does not scale

[raven blaze]

how does crafting with crests work?

[chrome palm]

the crest stays on the item when you recraft it

[raven blaze]

can i select a specific amount

oh it looks like its just 80 flat

[chrome palm]

so if you craft rank 1 with veteran crests you can recraft it to rank 5 without costing any additional veteran crests

but you should always craft it to rank 5 theres no reason not to

[raven blaze]

hm so it'd be 80 crests to get +6 item levels and arcanoweave lining

[chrome palm]

these all stay on the item when you recraft

with the option to change them

[raven blaze]

+3 and +3 item level is +200 dps, and arcanoweave is like double that

so yea its definitely worth to make the cloak and +6 item level increase instead of +12 item level increase

[chrome palm]

there is one factor which you havent considered

[raven blaze]

the suspense is killing me

[chrome palm]

which is the amount of electricity your veteran crest allocation sims have used

[raven blaze]

this is important Q_Q i plan on doing mythic!

im new player so i want as much dps as possible i just started wow retail with midnight lol

[alpine wraith]

it takes a bit to get used to things

[raven blaze]

i did mop full cleared on heroic everything up to throne

and that rotation was infinitely harder than midnight sub

[willow knoll]

New also, still trying to navigate through the not messing up my currency phase by making dumb stuff.

[chrome palm]

just make sure you have 2 veteran crafted pieces with embellishments, because the other veteran and below gear will/should be replaced before you enter a mythic raid

[hollow spear]

You guys worry way too much about that shit

We're talking about veteran crests

[raven blaze]

you can only have two embellishments cant you?

so one is dagger and one is arcanoweave?

wym two veteran crafted pieces

[chrome palm]

oh if you sent spark already thats fine as well

[willow knoll]

Well what else is there to worry about on WoW right now

Except getting better number.

[jaunty heath]

war

[chrome palm]

2 veteran crafting pieces is if you held spark

[raven blaze]

had to send spark because im raiding in a guild ive never met and theyre only bringing biggest pumpers into mythic

so had to have dagger

i had no choice

[chrome palm]

its fine

[raven blaze]

holding spark is for after first week of heroic raid to see what you got right

and then upgrade for mythic as much as possible

[warm marlin]

i mean depending on your guild you can keep holding it

until you need damage

[jaunty heath]

you get another spark next week

[lilac stag]

The good news is you really can’t do any permanent dmg short of crafting an int dagger with your spark. Everything else is very inconsequential at this point.

spending the time to learn the fights right now is best dps increase you can do.

[willow knoll]

well that makes me feel better atleast

[alpine wraith]

dont worry i guess we will get some people also crafting the bleed dagger

[willow knoll]

I almost made the int dagger too

[alpine wraith]

just to surprise us

[willow knoll]

But last minute I realized it was the int dagger

[lilac stag]

well shit. Gonna lose my asshole status.

[chrome palm]

this is somewhat complicated and depends on your guild

[raven blaze]

oh wtf the fights are known

[willow knoll]

Sorry im just having a bad morning too. You're fine lol, didn't mean to snap at you.

I just have someone in my ear at work pissing me off

[jaunty heath]

you want dagger craft anyway for emebelish

[stiff pollen]

!m

[vale pine]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[lilac stag]

!bis

[umbral bone]

why is this not good?

[lilac stag]

@chrome palm let’s see your 1h sword spark craft

[stiff pollen]

2 min cd

[alpine wraith]

it is not in the m+ rotation

it is decent otherwise

[jaunty heath]

its good right now

[alpine wraith]

just cant get it on champion even

[umbral bone]

i see

[chrome palm]

waiting on those sub nerfs in a week. my loot officer already told me theyd beat me up if i wore my reshii wraps to raid so i cant be too hasty with a sword just yet

[alpine wraith]

for dungeon trinks we may use puzzlebox or the plume from windrunner

[umbral bone]

i havent been on discord the entire xpac, anyone have any commands i can use to catch up, things like !fuu and stuff like that. also lf guild ..

[alpine wraith]

well yea you can check the sheet fuu has for simulation or mine for guides but also check the written guides on the usual places

[lilac stag]

That’s a lot of text for “no faith in outlaw”. Got it.

[chrome palm]

im holding down the fort

[willow knoll]

why does outlaw sim the highest usually

is it just because it doesnt take into account human playing capability?

lol

[alpine wraith]

because if it can do damage it will do damage

problem is fights are not that suited for it

[short radish]

more so patchwerk standing still the entire time

[willow knoll]

Ah

[short radish]

the moment theres downtime, outlaw starts to lose

[willow knoll]

So its strong on a training dummy basically

[umbral bone]

i guess ill just ask, any advice for a solo player who doesnt have resources anything i should know.

[alpine wraith]

well in m+ it also will perform

[short radish]

sorta yeah

it's more that say you need to swap to adds

as assi, you can regen energy slowly

you also bleed

outlaw with how much energy you have, if youre not dpsing youre losing really badly

[lilac stag]

Can you believe someone didn’t believe Im just here at this time of day to hang out with my Aussies and OCE peeps? smh my head

[short radish]

it punishes downtime harder than the other specs

[short radish]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ns15eHLDv1I

[chrome palm]

outlaw has little burst, while sub can concentrate its damage in a short time window. so if there is either a need for damage in one area, or an opportunity to increase your damage in a given window, sub can take advantage of that more than outlaw

so outlaw needs higher baseline tuning to make up for that

[reef walrus]

advice for what? broadly for playing rogue, any spec in particular?

[lilac stag]

oh we’re saying outlaw has burst now?

no longer flat

[willow knoll]

I've been messing with Assassin too

[lilac stag]

[short radish]

yeah on pull and then when you press prep

[chrome palm]

its got a little burst

a little

[willow knoll]

Not sure if I dig it. I think I just crave more buttons subconsciously but there's a part of me that also doesn't care that we just strike evi

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/ken-jeong-community-too-small-to-read-read-reading-gif-5494204

[chrome palm]

i mean you have zero in + gravedigger you can do double bte on supercharged combo points

[swift tinsel]

didn't charrend's forgemaster garfrost log show it had some pretty decent peaks

[chrome palm]

ok if we are talking little burst

wait until you see subs 90s

[lilac stag]

just look at every 25 seconds.

the cope for more buttons is real

[willow knoll]

I just like playing convoluted classes

When I made a rogue I didnt know they got pruned in midnight lmao

[chrome palm]

your "burst" spec, sir

[willow knoll]

I didn't even have any idea of what midnight was doing in terms of cleaning up abilities etc.

[tulip silo]

Sick outlaw burst

[chrome palm]

about that...

[willow knoll]

I'm happy with sub though, don't really wanna change from rogue atleast.

[alpine wraith]

sub will be fun when you can snipe better

[zealous kindle]

concerning AOE situation:
when in shadowdance, how many enemies need to be there so shuriken storm > shadow strike?

[vale pine]

big burst!!

[alpine wraith]

a problematic thing is with potent powder it is going to get close to using bp on st

with more gear

or more mastery/crit

[willow knoll]

I usually never shuriken storm shadowstrike because I feel like if you're shruiken storming the nyou might as well black powder also

but idk if I'm wrong <_>

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/jeremyclarkson-drdalek10-blunderfully-gif-19572527

[jaunty heath]

i think assa will get buff

thats my prediction

[lilac stag]

I’m curious to see if either of the two “now easier” specs actually have a significant increase in gameplay.

[zealous kindle]

i dont understand? 🙂

[lilac stag]

still think folks will fall over to get back to assa the minute it has a 3% buff

[willow knoll]

I just mean if there's enough adds that you're shuriken storming in the first place then I always just assume black powder is a DPS gain also

[short radish]

tbh the fact that sub is still desync'd sectech and sdance

will probably still confuse people

[lilac stag]

It does

[short radish]

and scare people off

WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CANT PRESS THINGS OFF COOLDOWN

[zealous kindle]

black powder is a spender.
i was asking for the builder. shadow strike or shurken storm

[lilac stag]

also not understanding that 18% haste isn’t what they need

[chrome palm]

what are they doing in season 2

[wraith sphinx]

3

[chrome palm]

when sub gets its life support cut

[willow knoll]

Oh 3 = SS

[chrome palm]

no long blades and no haste on use

[willow knoll]

ye

Oh I misread what you originally wrote lol

mbmb

[zealous kindle]

so in dance:
2-3 enemies, shadow strike. if there's 4+, shuriken storm
ye?

[alpine wraith]

a funny one will be the disconnect with bl and haste procs

[lilac stag]

[alpine wraith]

people going ?? suddenly i can use sec tech earlier than dance

[willow knoll]

I mean if you just follow the rule of thumb of not using SD unless you have sectec up etc.

Doesn't the disjointed CDs kinda fix themselves?

[alpine wraith]

season 2 ER FLAG and Sepsis come in again

[willow knoll]

I mean for mental stack

[alpine wraith]

you will have the ultimate mental stack

with those 3

[lilac stag]

S2 is the Goremaw rework and tier set

[alpine wraith]

yea goremaw will become a nuke you build with finishers

until you can press it and it does a morbiliion damage

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bh187-spongebob-nuke-explosion-nuked-gif-25849222

[alpine wraith]

like old soul cap

or folly

[willow knoll]

wait we get new abilities per season?

[reef walrus]

they're mostly memeing about it, don't worry

[lilac stag]

jokes on you. We already have Goremaw

[reef walrus]

usually during seasons they don't introduce brand new abilities

[willow knoll]

Oh 🙁

I got excited

[alpine wraith]

you can also use gouge sometimes to feel special

[lilac stag]

joke on all of us is blizzard forgetting about it

[reef walrus]

the only one of the mentioned abilities here is goremaw's, which is already in the talent tree, but is a dead talent

and that might become useful if blizzard decides to change the ability (or maybe add a tier set that massively buffs it)

[azure mauve]

whats that? can you eat it?

[thorny wagon]

Does Goremaws still has this crunchy sound when used ? I liked this a lot back in legion

[reef walrus]

couldn't tell you because I don't think I've pressed that button since legion

[alpine wraith]

think it still has it

[thorny wagon]

Oh nice

[alpine wraith]

but wanna know a funny one

they made sure it doesnt work with nimble

it did work on alpha then killed it on beta of TWW

[thorny wagon]

It would be way to powerfull. Its already one of the most op skills in the whole game.

[supple pawn]

Whuh o.o

[woeful barn]

throwback

HFC timewalking when? Jk they’d nuke that trinket into oblivion anyway

[supple pawn]

Why hellfire citadel timewalking? Blackrock Foundry is the clear better pick

[woeful barn]

Black rock the better raid but doesn’t have soul cap

[supple pawn]

True

[alpine wraith]

there are many cool trinkets that they could never make nowadays

people are already frothing at the mouth when a 10% one releases

imagine if some of the old ones that were like 30% or 40% dmg increases happen today

XD

also wonder if we will ever get a maalus effect back

people really needed to live those times to know

[reef walrus]

the good old soul cap during the ring and then another soul cap procc the second before the explosion hit

and then to say that soul cap wasn't even the strongest trinket in hfc, I think prophecy of fear for arcane had to be the strongest trinket I've ever seen

[umbral bone]

so what do they need? serious q

[reef walrus]

you want to look at the haste stat value, not the percentage

the talent that increases your shadow dance length specifically works off your haste stat value and not the percentage

[woeful barn]

Can confirm 18 is massive

[reef walrus]

in simple terms, just aim for 700 haste in your stat sheet

[umbral bone]

so whats the answer. how much do we need and what does the coding of it scaling off non% imply

ok

cause the 3% is false in this case

from talent

[reef walrus]

yeah that's why it's not good to look at the percentage

[umbral bone]

are we gemming haste

[reef walrus]

because alacrity will add 3%, but that 3% has no impact on your shadow dance duration

[umbral bone]

its prio to get that 700 correct

[reef walrus]

if you're below the 700, you can gem haste yeah

[umbral bone]

sudac i appreiate you lol

[reef walrus]

depends on what you need to give up to get there

like if you have low haste and you have the choice between 2x 240 rings, one with haste and one without, pick the one with haste

but if you're looking at like a 160 chest with haste vs a 240 chest with crit/mastery or something

the chest could very well be better

this is why people say to just sim things, because there's too many variables to really say from the top of your head

it's not that people don't want to help necessarily, it's mostly that simming is the most accurate answer for your own character

[raven blaze]

theres a trinket in siege of orgrimmar that is i think 50-70% of your total dps

lmfao.

[swift tinsel]

SoO trinkets

man

[muted kindle]

you guys going with mastery haste on wep and working around that?

[raven blaze]

@muted kindle other way around

u can recraft it later anyway

[swift tinsel]

getting a fully-stacked Black Blood set of affliction DoTs you could perma-soul swap around

[muted kindle]

cant lie i forgot about recrafting 😂

[lilac stag]

raw stat of 684-700

[willow knoll]

why are the training dummies in silvermoon throwing hands

[lilac stag]

percents lie

[reef walrus]

are you hitting the tank dummies by any chance?

[swift tinsel]

I always liked the transformation trinkets like Fury of Angerforge or Spark of Zandalar

[willow knoll]

Idk probably

lmao

[reef walrus]

yeah they fight back 😄

[vestal escarp]

Deathbringers will

[willow knoll]

yeah that ws it

lmao

Explains it

[verbal kelp]

just so i understand, outside of bloodlust, we don't do the apex talent optimization, meaning no ss at 5+ stacks?

[zealous kindle]

while i was at it:
same for black powder? so evi for 1-3 enemies, black powder for 4+?

[wraith sphinx]

Black powder at 2 or more enemies

[zealous kindle]

even in dance, yes?

[calm cloud]

outside of SD

oh black powder mom

yeah spender just 2 or more

[wraith sphinx]

Yea

[zealous kindle]

fine, thanks

[wraith sphinx]

BP trucks

[dawn heron]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

You cannot track the apex talents Ancient Arts through the cooldown manager. However they do show up via the ingame like THIS. If you cannot see them you must go into your settings and increase your Spell Alert Opacity. Some popular Addons (like ElvUI) disable these by default.

[wraith sphinx]

By season 3 we'll be using it on st

[calm cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/copium-box-gif-4154066459530846772

[willow knoll]

is it normal to have this awkward litle window where SD and sectec come off CD and shadow blades is up in 10 seconds?

lol

[umbral bone]

wait i need to get 20k abundance, wont that take like 2 hours

[swift tinsel]

if its the unalloyed abundance you're capped on how much you can get a week

like 7200 iirc

[reef walrus]

Yep, shadow dance has a 20 sec cd and shadow blades 90, so 10 sec of difference is expected

[willow knoll]

right right

So we just hold for SB I'd think?

[reef walrus]

There's rules in the faq about it I believe

[willow knoll]

ah kk lemme take a peak

[swift tinsel]

if blades is up in 10 sec you hold

[slow bridge]

oh wow thats simple

[willow knoll]

Oh there it is at the bottom lmao

[stone vessel]

we don't do that shadowstrike spamming? to proc apex 4?

[swift tinsel]

not really a gain anymore, only in lust

[umbral bone]

what stats do we go on crafted daggeR?

and we go Hunt correcT>

[tawny marlin]

I did haste/mastery

[umbral bone]

i want to do haste mast also ..

[soft summit]

Eh? Website says 18%… what do we actually need?

[umbral bone]

700 hatste points

so if your ring gives 100 haste, u need 7 of those

also, can someone explain hunt embellesh

[brazen forge]

hi

[junior ether]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[chrome palm]

they put target dummy decor in the game (which you can only place inside your house (which you cannot attack))

[muted kindle]

@vale pine its only a minor thing but noticed this on the wowhead guide

[graceful rock]

The attackable one will be in the shop soon

[junior ether]

we want to use prepot before shadow dance but it's ok to use it after blades?
Like whats the right thing to do?

/use prepot
/cast Shadow Blade
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Sectech

?

[willow knoll]

tank target dummy was beating my ass

[vale pine]

give me 2 minutes, and it should be fixed

[muted kindle]

no stress

[graceful crown]

It doesnt matter before or after blades

[junior ether]

got it, thanks

[lilac stag]

684-700

[hazy breach]

Its not even that specific, around 600 is fine for robot, but because you are a human and are playing on a server with some latency you want some extra leeway

So an additional 50-100 is good

[willow knoll]

at 677 right now.

Feels mostly okayish

[hollow spear]

If you're playing in the void zone, you should aim for 1.200

[brazen forge]

Bro, are these macros up to date?

[shrewd lantern]

why would they not be

you dont need many macros

[dire ravine]

Question here, I thought it was- Strike-Blades-Dance-SecTec, why do we Dance-Blades-Sectec?

[brazen forge]

I also think there's no need for macros.

[swift tinsel]

dance+sectech the only one I'm using atm

[shrewd lantern]

there isnt

[swift tinsel]

but with my binds I could drop it and be fine

[shrewd lantern]

yeah

[chrome palm]

strike before dance

[reef walrus]

I just want to point out that Eleem wrote what I linked, I'm just parroting what he wrote 😛

[hazy breach]

If you want to get around 200 extra haste or so you dont, but otherwise you definitely want to use atleast Sectech+Dance. Because you literally cant press them as fast as the macro manually

[dire ravine]

the condition thats mostly confusing me currently is why are we dancing before blades? I thought we wanted to dance in our blades

[shrewd lantern]

those abilities are off global

so does it really matter?

[reef walrus]

but both of those are off gcd, so the exact order there doesn't matter

[willow knoll]

have a sectec dance one and then a seperate sd-blades-sectec one

[chrome palm]

oh in practice it will be blades - dance

because youll macro the trinket to blades

and you cant macro it with dance

[dire ravine]

That would be my question- if does it matter 🙂

[shrewd lantern]

idk you guys are nitpicking

the most minor shit

[warm marlin]

It does not

[shrewd lantern]

besides if you have a haste trinket

[chrome palm]

strike - blades/pot/trinket - dance/secret

[shrewd lantern]

dance and blades are off gcd so it really doesnt matter which you press them in

[warm marlin]

except with guidon like messer explained

[chrome palm]

you gotta use trinket before dance

or else it wont snapshot the haste stat

needs a small delay

[junior ether]

this is the right way to spam it yah?

[shrewd lantern]

is there a 1.5 haste trinket

[junior ether]

or im missing something?

[shrewd lantern]

[warm marlin]

Yes guidon from first boss

Very very strong

[chrome palm]

i would do 3 macros
blades/pot/trinket
blades/trinket
dance/secret

[shrewd lantern]

it probably wont snapshot in a macro

[hazy breach]

Tbf its not really that strong, its just the best option available this season

[shrewd lantern]

since all off global so dance would go off same time as the on use

[hazy breach]

Its nothing compared to araz or prism

[lilac stag]

No but it’s just easier than seeing 18% when it’s then showing ~600 and they’re wondering why it’s not working as expected.

[warm marlin]

very very strong relative!

[dire ravine]

Im coming from a completely different class- I just want to make sure I have a solid understanding of the conditions. Not trying to be nitpicky, genuinely just want to learn.

[shrewd lantern]

i feel s1 trinkets are rarely op

[hazy breach]

Transmitter

[junior ether]

wouldn't blades/pot/trinket work even with pot being cd?

im new to macro stuff

[lilac stag]

Like outlaws burst, right @chrome palm

[junior ether]

so sorry if it's obvious

[warm marlin]

It was also already the best before we talked about the snapshot tech

[swift tinsel]

guzzy trinket s1 df

[warm marlin]

So I presume it is far away the best now

[chrome palm]

you want to use pot intentionally

instead of every time you try to use blades

[junior ether]

oh i see cd here is 2 min

yah i got the point

thanks

[lilac stag]

Good luck on sticking with it past 3 weeks of raiding.

[tidal salmon]

this goat>shadow dance

[warm marlin]

The guzzler

[lilac stag]

pre-nerf guzzler

rip

[stiff pollen]

Mahnito whispered you: "Thank you for resetting my Grieftorch"

[dire ravine]

I really enjoy it so far, honestly. Its got a very nice cadence, and I appreciate the damage profile. I like the CD timers, and the kit has been really fun to play with. I spent a bit of the offseason after CE playing on it- this will be my first raid tier maining it though.

[shrewd lantern]

i said rarely

[hollow wigeon]

what stat are you guys putting on Farstider Mercy

[shrewd lantern]

grieftorch got buffed the more shamans you had

[lilac stag]

I joke but a month is usually burn out time for most on rogue. Get past that and you’re usually a lifer.

[shrewd lantern]

why a month

[dire hare]

so first craft most likely weapon, would second craft be something like bracers/boots/belt/back (whatever non tier slot is lowest ilvl) ?

[lilac stag]

bored, frustrated, miss visuals? Idk. People just fizzle out on it and go back to main or something else

[shrewd lantern]

am i the only person who nevver understands the visuals argument

[mint swift]

I’d say wait on vault, at least with sparks

Although crafting a dagger is a p safe bet

[chrome palm]

@junior ether these
regular blades

#showtooltip Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/cast Shadow Blades

potion blades

#showtooltip Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Shadow Blades

dance secret

#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

dance evis

#showtooltip Eviscerate
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Eviscerate

dance powder

#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Black Powder

[lilac stag]

don’t like sitting in LFG for m+

[shrewd lantern]

you cant see shit in the blob of melee during raid

[mint swift]

Also check the raid comp to see if anyone else would nab a dagger (eg, other rogue or survival hunter)

[dire ravine]

My Main is no longer my main- if you catch my drift. They absolutely gutted my class, so much so its a husk of what it used to be.

[swift tinsel]

you can see them in m+

[dire hare]

thanks, makes sense, I was thinking more for the initial veteran crest crafts

[shrewd lantern]

Sitting in lfg for m+ is self caused by not just makin friends

[swift tinsel]

or, not see them if you're lacking vfx

[mint swift]

Oh fair

[shrewd lantern]

true m+ doesnt have mechanics

[junior ether]

got it, thanks a lot!

[mint swift]

Personally I crafted 2x arcane weave as it’s a safe bet I can make into me endgame embellishments

[lilac stag]

They gutted sub (and basically every spec) so this is basically grass is greener for many

[mint swift]

But idk how true that is for sub rogue

[swift tinsel]

or when doing any dummy testing

[dire hare]

gotcha gotcha

[chrome palm]

the evis/powder macros are only for your 2nd dance in blades

[swift tinsel]

plenty of opportunities to be disappointed by your vfx situation

[lilac stag]

we’re now fury warriors with burst

[willow knoll]

I never really got the WoW mentality of meta to that degree. Like is rogue really that much worse than meta at PvE that people willingly ignore it for M+?

[shrewd lantern]

only if you pug

thats a self inflicted problem

[willow knoll]

Yeah but even then, is WoW full of that many.

[lilac stag]

no utility is not good

[willow knoll]

well, you know

types of people

lmao

[deft moss]

Any way to track Ancient arts? i dont see it on the CDM

[lilac stag]

Sht stacks

[willow knoll]

I mean even if that was the case like how much time would they even be losing on a run?

A few minutes?

[deft moss]

its relevant cus of this correct?

[shrewd lantern]

personally idk

[dire ravine]

true, and I just have a bias that blizzard makes 1.5m CD bosses now. I was playing on 2min CDs and the timings were always clunky. I can naturally weave into damage amps much simpler and focus more on progression. I dont need a PhD to play my class anymore lol

[shrewd lantern]

most pug rogues i see are kind of terribad

lmao

[lilac stag]

you actually saw pug rogues?

[shrewd lantern]

i saw a guy playing no garrote build in a 10 in s2

[deft moss]

yea i put the sht on i guess i just assume it procced if its 5+ on that?

[willow knoll]

That's weird to me because usally the amount of bad players will just directly correlate to what's played the most

[shrewd lantern]

i mean hell you have people in this server

who unironically say the words

"prio damage"

and funnel

in the big 26

[mint swift]

And also less quiet

[willow knoll]

If rogue is so underplayed you figure the people playing it would be people who stuck with it and know their class

[vale pine]

it is low impact

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[vale pine]

is a maybe simpler way to look at it

[mint swift]

Not running around screaming, instead sneaking

[chrome palm]

i was priomaxxing in db arrest me

[shrewd lantern]

we dont count db

[chrome palm]

i was priomaxxing in streets gun me down

pe was op low key

[mint swift]

Ew DB

[deft moss]

ty

[shrewd lantern]

also ngl in db as sub i've had keys i didnt bp much due

to brain off

[dire ravine]

goated trinket.

[chrome palm]

that was optimal youre just a savant

[shrewd lantern]

or its like

[chrome palm]

natural born priomaxxer

[shrewd lantern]

havoc arcane

[chrome palm]

still evis

[shrewd lantern]

and the havoc has 1 braincell to press buttons

[celest mulch]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[celest mulch]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[willow knoll]

People who sit on WoWhead and analyze meta DPS constantly are dickheads.

[mint swift]

I remember some people always saying “thanks for the grief torch” after anyone died

[willow knoll]

Moral of the steory.

[mint swift]

Peak trinket

[shrewd lantern]

well people dont wanna admit they suck

its easier to blame something else

[deft moss]

wowhead didnt mention the only during lust part so that means its even less of an issue for me

[shrewd lantern]

goes beyond games

[elfin pendant]

Guys is this true?

[shrewd lantern]

but applies more for games

[willow knoll]

100 percent

that's what it is lmao

[dire ravine]

Looking @ this right now wont do anything. We have likely 3-4 tuning patches coming.

[willow knoll]

I play fighting games alot and it's the same thing

[mint swift]

As someone who is playing SP it wouldn’t surprises me

[lilac stag]

SV still favoring 2h?

[willow knoll]

I guess probably is in any competitive anything to whatever degree

[deft moss]

so hoard gear for all 3 specs even harder got it lol

[mint swift]

Fully depends

For pack leader, you want DW as there’s a talent that gives focus on each auto attack

For sentinel, you want 2H as it scales off weapon damage

[vale pine]

thats because i found that out yesterday, haven't had time to adjust.
you can find it here:
#1065728795455266888 message

[lilac stag]

What’s raid looking like?

[hoary bloom]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1476887002019270761/Midnight_s1_fixed.png

[willow knoll]

I think as a new person it's just annoying conceptually to feel like you have to be pigeonholed into like 4 milquetoast DPS specs unless you want to sit looking for groups forever.

[dire ravine]

Its tuning, theyre locked in on class changes so far. So if you just hate how that spec plays, youre stuck with it lol.

[deft moss]

i dont like outlaw haha

[dire ravine]

FOTM rerollers are always going to be a thing, make your own group- make friends- network.

[shrewd lantern]

thats just pugs

[willow knoll]

I have them, have a pretty cool guild I found.

[vale pine]

wdym true, the profiles look somewhat okay, but tuning does not matter atm

[shrewd lantern]

what throws people in for more of a loop are pvp games with counterpicks

[lilac stag]

Welcome to seasonal gaming. Best bet is find a guild or make friends. Legit I’ve got a couple oce I play with in the early morning just from being friends from here.

[willow knoll]

It's more just.

I wish the worst for the other people.

Divorced from my actual playtime

[elfin pendant]

im just asking if its time for us to start dooming our class (joking obviously)

[willow knoll]

lmao

[swift tinsel]

seeing feral on any sim list when they give big warnings that their sims are buggy and weird is a chuckle

[lilac stag]

ilvl >>> meta usually in LFG

[willow knoll]

Anyone who sits on LFG xing classes out of their group is an NPC

[obtuse kite]

Any idea for the crafted dagger's stats? haste and mastery?

[willow knoll]

Ah aight aight

[shrewd lantern]

is feral even simming much higher than guardian

rn

[willow knoll]

I feel like that's semi more reasonable tbf

[upper laurel]

Do we ever use shurken on 2 targets?

[mint swift]

Unsure on raid specifically, but I’d guess sentinel

Both sentinel and pack leader are close in M+, I think pack leader sims a tinyyyyy bit higher

In single target sentinel sims ahead of Pack leader

So if I had to harbour a guess I’d say Sentinel for raid, so 2H

[reef walrus]

I'm pretty sure that specific spreadsheet literally says at the top (that's usually cropped out) to not share it publicly 😄

[narrow comet]

I have a question for some of you who are actually good at pve

[reef walrus]

because it's still broken and incomplete

[swift tinsel]

gotta get people riled up somehow

[narrow comet]

Are you all no mattee what always sending Tech in dance, or do you ever just shove it to reset unseen blades?

This is for M+

[mint swift]

But if I get a mythic dagger in my vault I’m probably crafting an off hander and going DW on both sent and PL

Even if a 2H is better, mythic weapon is a mythic weapon

[reef walrus]

yep

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[lilac stag]

I figure it could change and I f don’t see our hunters leaving range unless sv broken

[shrewd lantern]

but my clicks

[mint swift]

From what I can tell SV is deffo playable and doing respectable damage but is behind MM

[shrewd lantern]

lets be real alot didnt leave range in sofo

when sv was pants on head

[mint swift]

In aoe well
MM is bugged so it ain’t really fair

But without the bug I think MM is ahead but SV isn’t too far behind

And BM is well
Not as good I’ll say that much

[lilac stag]

Well. Melee spots usually more the limit

[shrewd lantern]

and that season sv was even more ranged since most of your damage was from yeeting bombs

[deft moss]

share it

[shrewd lantern]

ig come in to carve

[mint swift]

That’s true, I mainly play SV due to enjoying the fantasy and rotation

MM is fun aswell, but I prefer SV

Unless we need range or the MM bug doesn’t get fixed I’ll be playing sv

[lilac stag]

I enjoy SV

[mint swift]

I did have to swap off of Outlaw for heroic guild though, switching to shadow priest

Which is most likely getting buffed in tuning

[lilac stag]

always have. Just hate having to possibly play other two

[mint swift]

Understandable ngl

[dire ravine]

MM is so chill though

[mint swift]

It is ye
But sv just feels cooler
Also getting knocked or cancelling a long aimed shot feels sad

[stuck arrow]

A heroic guild made you change classes? Jeez. That's brutal.

[mint swift]

Nono they didn’t

I did it because of how little ranged we had

[willow knoll]

there's guilds that just do heroics?

[mint swift]

Because it would probably be a healthier experience overall if melee doesn’t do ranged

[dire ravine]

race swapped to VE for this exact reason hehehe

[mint swift]

It’s not heroic only per say
We do heroic, then do a bit of mythic but usually don’t have the numbers

It’s a really chill environment ngl

But I’ll deffo be doing mythic on my hunter

[willow knoll]

that's like the equivelent of a FFXIV free company that runs normal dungeons all day

[narrow comet]

Sounds baller as fuck to me

If it's heroic raids

[willow knoll]

oh maybe im just missing something lmao

[swift tinsel]

yeah there's tons that are aotc-only

and just do heroic

[narrow comet]

I need to get an aotc so I can do some raiding

[brisk reef]

so, out of the script here but do we expect some tuning or we sitting here like frogs?

[narrow comet]

I only pvp

[mint swift]

There’s prolly more AoTC than CE

Or

[swift tinsel]

this is how ours is, we do aotc then usually end up 4/8 or whatever

[mint swift]

Yea exact same
Mythic guild usually full clears though

[swift tinsel]

but then do a ton of guild m+

[mint swift]

Yea

[stuck arrow]

Ah. I mean as long as it's your choice I guess.

[mint swift]

M+ is a lot more accessible

[mint swift]

Yuh it 100% is

Also never played shadow priest so it’s a fun experience

Well

[reef walrus]

blizzard announced tuning in general for next week

[mint swift]

Minus the current damage

But that will be changed

[reef walrus]

whether rogue or subtlety specifically gets any tuning, who knows?

[stuck arrow]

I mean, realistically sub is pretty middle of the road in terms of sim results and actual performance. Wouldn't be unreasonable if they left Sub alone and buffed low performers and nerfed the high performers.

But who the hell knows.

[lilac stag]

Sub getting nuked because of m0 would be classic blizzard

[willow knoll]

Sub seems actually balanced

[stuck arrow]

All we know is that they're probably nerfing Arms again. And buffing bear. 👀

[brisk reef]

i mean , isn't sub the best performer rn?

[mint swift]

I mean
You DID say sub is like fury
And blizzard does like to nerf fury so it might be doomed

[lilac stag]

and blood dk

[brisk reef]

would they rly just hit rogue like that?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/airplane-first-time-nervous-80s-movies-gif-19769548

[stuck arrow]

Lol

[shrewd lantern]

i mean the burst aoe

is quite stronk

[umbral bone]

theyll make alacrity work with dance duration

[willow knoll]

Sub seems good.

I mean it isn't like top 2

or whatever

but isn't like high A tier a good spot? lol

[shrewd lantern]

the big outlier is bear

is better than most dps

[brisk reef]

ok, to put it better ,would they just buff the other 2 specs on rogue and never touch sub?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/airplane-first-time-nervous-80s-movies-gif-19769548

[willow knoll]

The more I learn about WoW the more I feel like nobody at blizzard plays wow

[mint swift]

Correct

Or rather

For me it’s nobody tests it

They play it but the QA is abysmal

[willow knoll]

Yeah but you feel like there'd be one dude up there right

that plays rogue or something

[shrewd lantern]

they play it as much as that mcdonalds ceo eats his own burgers

[stuck arrow]

Sub is strong and reliable in M0s with bad tanks. It's not exactly op though if you have big pulls with mobs that stay alive.

Bad tanks and stuff that dies too fast just Giga screws a lot of classes.

[umbral bone]

these takes are childish

you dont like theyre decisions ok but its just the dumbest thing to ever say

of course they understand and test

were older now be real

[mint swift]

People have been reporting things like memory leaks and clipping issues since beta with no fixes

At least from what I’ve seen/read

[lilac stag]

just like they tested all the profession stuff which you could exploit to max KP during early access with multiple creative methods.

[mint swift]

Like the balancing not being good is 100% normal due to the lack of data to balance around

But other things are super sloppy

[sick dagger]

When do we stop caring about proccing AA? Like at what target count

[willow knoll]

I don't think nobody is saying they don't test stuff, I think people are questioning the quality of their decision making and their testing.

lol

[hot seal]

Didnt they say we get balance patch on 17 and 24?

[mint swift]

Yea
Ofc people at blizzard play the game, it just sometimes feels like they don’t

[reef walrus]

they can't really do this

[mint swift]

Yea

[hot seal]

Class balance is so far from the mythic raiding state

[reef walrus]

it worked like that earlier on, with just your haste %

[stuck arrow]

I mean you'd expect they would. Realistically they should have pretty solid models of how much damage and given spec could do.

Yet somehow those numbers are never exactly reasonably balanced.

[latent finch]

The assa apex cdm thing should never got live like that. It dont break in like 1 hour session it breaks the moment you proc it.

[mint swift]

They are deffo tuning things once raid and M+ comes out as they have data to balance off of

[reef walrus]

but that caused some awkward effects with both PI and lust

[willow knoll]

I think WoW is just kind of hard to balance with the way specs are.

[mint swift]

Had a pretty interesting discussion the other day with someone around it

You need concrete data to balance things properly

[swift tinsel]

yeah no shot they make dance duration scale with haste %

and not rating

[reef walrus]

especially if there were any temporary haste buffs in the raids or dungeons, you could easily get dances that lasted longer than their cooldown

[mint swift]

100%, but they did a good job overall last expansion

[reef walrus]

and that would just break the spec

[hollow spear]

What do you do if your last global in dancd is a finisher? Dry backstab, dance strike or dance storm?

[willow knoll]

FFXIV took an even worse route (imo) and just homogenized alot of their damage which balanced stuff to a degree but made it infinitely boring

[mint swift]

Know what I want back

And this a monkeys paw wish most likely

Make embellishments both cool and impactful

[willow knoll]

I just want my class to have a high skill ceiling and be competitive.

[stuck arrow]

I mean, I think it's fine to have things not be perfectly balanced. I agree that that would be boring. Classes should feel different and distinct.

But like - some classes shouldn't do 20% more damage, and some specs shouldn't do 20% less. 😂 Which isn't out of the ordinary in WoW.

[willow knoll]

What class is that in WoW

[swift tinsel]

none anymore

[reef walrus]

wdym? they're impactful!

[chrome palm]

low key i was spreading misinfo i forgot with tier you have to wait a bit for dance

[mint swift]

Close enough

Welcome back infinite stars

[chrome palm]

pretty sure robot backstabs in blades until secret comes back

[willow knoll]

Did all clases get pruned into oblivion?

[swift tinsel]

yes

[willow knoll]

I only know the rogue POV

[swift tinsel]

all of them

[willow knoll]

damn lmao

[stuck arrow]

Well except like enhancement.

[swift tinsel]

I can't really think of any that have any meaningful skill expression

[mint swift]

Like as a sv hunter
Running the murder row fishhook would be cool
Synergies with my talents and is cool idea wise

But nah imma just take arcane worms to my body for a slight dps increase

[stuck arrow]

Enhancement barely got changed.

[swift tinsel]

enhancement got simplified

[mint swift]

I feel like tanking and healing can potentially lead to a higher feeling in certain environments

[shrewd lantern]

tanking you get to rage at bad dps

mostly ret paladins

and warriors

[willow knoll]

Was this just a kneejerk reaction to WoW losing player numbers and them assuming its because it was too hard or something

[shrewd lantern]

no its to make wow for console

/s

[stuck arrow]

Simplified yes - pruned the way everyone else did - no. Much less wacky strings of procs and needing to learn several rotations.

I think they lost one button.

[mint swift]

They removed weak auras so you can install 6 different mods to replace it

[shrewd lantern]

but yet at least i can design the place my character takes a shit in

[stuck arrow]

Housing is objectively kind of cool. Idk. Been something people have asked for for decades.

[willow knoll]

It's kind of ironic I try to escape FF for them simplifying stuff too much and then I go to WoW when midnight drops.

[mint swift]

Tbh wouldn’t surprise me if they are using ai for blueposts or bits of coding

Some things seem inexcusable

[shrewd lantern]

My house exists to get people stuck in the front door

and need to hearth

[arctic scroll]

Teach me

[hollow spear]

Probably optimal, but my brain still cannot handle wasting blades like that

Even though it's not even that big of a cooldown anymore without flag

[stuck arrow]

I mean objectively WoW had a lot of unnecessary bloat. Simplifying not necessarily a bad thing.

There's a line where it's too much, but honestly most specs I've played feel relatively good to play.

[gilded lodge]

It’s the result of wanting to get rid of needing addons, mainly weakauras for raid bosses. The idea is that you have to use your eyes and brain to do the encounters rather than rely on the TTS voice telling you what to do and the thinking is that you can’t have fights be complicated AND have a rotation that’s complicated.

[willow knoll]

Yeah I just feel like they kind of went a little too extreme with it

[chrome palm]

im expecting/hoping for a rework in 12.0.5-12.1, when we lose guidon and tier we wont even be able to double-secret in blades

[willow knoll]

but that's just from the lense of a new person

[umbral bone]

i just completed the 3 battlegrounds quest and got nothing im confused

[stuck arrow]

Even from the lense of an old player; most people you play with don't even know what all of their buttons are. 😂

[mint swift]

It’s timegated

4 weeks

[teal plaza]

How does sub feel with low haste right now? I'm at 9% and playing outlaw so I hate my life

[umbral bone]

so in 4 weeks i get loot?

[mint swift]

A new quest comes out each week and at the end you get the. Neck

Yea

It’s awfully designed

[shrewd lantern]

the bg quest is basically a test

if players can read

[stuck arrow]

I've gotten CE with people who don't know what some of their classes utility spells were or did.

[umbral bone]

shuld be 2-3 weeks

[night sparrow]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[umbral bone]

id prefer champion instnat tho

[willow knoll]

I feel like that's just a personality type

Those people will always be those people even if they have 2 buttons

[stuck arrow]

It feels fine.

Play doesn't change - just less GCDs in dance.

[gilded lodge]

Why not be mythic this week.

[umbral bone]

because im a serious person

[lusty acorn]

What emp to the dagger first craftv

?

[umbral bone]

w/e i get a bis item in 4 weeks

[willow knoll]

Balancing for the lowest common denominator of a player type is never a great thing imo. Not saying WoW didn't have bloat, I heard it did but I just mean going overboard with it.

[umbral bone]

hunt'

anyone know the stats on the helm we get from amani

[warm marlin]

it looks at the cooldown of sectec to see if it can fit a second sectec in blades. if it can, it'll hold dance until about the time sectec is ready and backstab/finish in the meantime. if sectec won't come up in time, it just rips the dance whenever it comes up

[umbral bone]

renown

[rigid torrent]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

at low haste i think it's just single dancing blades too

very cursed

[gilded lodge]

But what if the lowest common denominator is the high end CE raider?

[willow knoll]

Well it's just by definition not.

[gilded lodge]

Meaning, the lowest population of wows player base

[stuck arrow]

Press buttons, do damage, stand in fire to help your healers parse.

[lusty acorn]

What emp for first craft

[willow knoll]

I'm not talking about population count, I'm talking about skill level. You balance for what can be achieved, not what the lowest hanging fruit does.

[maiden oar]

oh

[night sparrow]

Hey @vale pine for some reason you can't highlight ( so copy/paste) talents on the dark mode spreadshit but you can with the light one. Just so you know o/

[maiden oar]

thats the conclusion i see

[stuck arrow]

Much less cursed than low haste OL. 😂

[mint swift]

I’m doing the same

Haste/mast neck doesn’t seem to be in the M+ pool

So imma get it as a fialsafe

[umbral bone]

i went from 60 to 330 haste value today. and the day is young

[mint swift]

Fair
I’m mainly getting it on SP but SV likes it too

[hollow plinth]

nice trinkets

[warm marlin]

bloodmallet is a bit lost in the sauce

should get updated with non cooked sims at some point

[calm cloud]

which of those should i be using?

sim said the one i have equiped is best combo (all at 250 max except ofc crucibil)

[hollow spear]

because that's actually optimal? please tell me it's not

[verbal wagon]

do we macro shadow dance with shuriken storm if we're specced into trickster? I know we do can do it if deathstalker, but i wasn't sure as to why and if it's ill advised to do if trickster

[swift tinsel]

nope, youll macro dance with sectech and send at 6+ cp

[warm marlin]

the sub does what the sectec cooldown wants

[verbal wagon]

awesome, thank you

[hollow spear]

when did they add the add buff to the cdm? could swear it wasn't there an hour ago

I need a coffee

[swift tinsel]

wait AA is in the CDM now?

[hollow spear]

yea

the heck

did they just ninja this in or wat

[warm marlin]

that's how they added implacable

[limpid sage]

I guess you could say they were subtle about it

[hollow spear]

I was like

[limpid sage]

:^)

[hollow spear]

the heck is this thing on my bar all of a sudden