subtlety

[gray jungle]

It also doesn’t show it gives it or show up on map

[swift tinsel]

that would be entirely new, gating it behind pvp

[alpine wraith]

did you check the dungeon weekly

or the alleria weekly

might be inside the pinnacle chest

like before

[alpine wraith]

like the do 3 delves

[swift tinsel]

ye dungeon is usually just rep

[swift tinsel]

Lorthemar should give the activity one

[brisk raptor]

i completed that quest already aswell, it was also pvp oriented. had you copmlete 3 bgs

[swift tinsel]

where you choose

isn't the 3 bg one tied to that multi-week hero track thing

is that from bg's or quests in the Slayers Rise

[brisk raptor]

it is

tied to that 4 week thing

[gray jungle]

You pick it up in silver moon from the PvP girl it doesn’t show up on map

[brisk raptor]

but i only had that quest and dungeon quest from main 2 people. guess you have to do the ol sparks thing

[warm marlin]

the universe willed it into being

[swift tinsel]

something seems scuffed then with the spark quests

bc pvping for sparks has never been forced before with no alternative

unless the training grounds count

in which case what's the point

[gray jungle]

It doesn’t give it yet

Could if they fix

[pallid jackal]

I see, thanks

So I don't see it in the guide somewhere but from how many targets is the aoe rotation now? 2 or 3?

[hollow spear]

The holy apl spirit decided no more minmaxing

[swift tinsel]

@pallid jackal

[hollow spear]

Is "I don't see it in the guide" code for "I'm not reading the guide"?

[ionic python]

Which stats should i go for the dagger, Mast/haste?

[swift tinsel]

if you're below 700 haste ye

[jaunty heath]

guys whats best pvp talents

gotta fight for that psark

[light hull]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Auto Tricks on tank Addon - TankMD

[swift tinsel]

I'm just gonna wait til next week and get the catch-up spark

[fair phoenix]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pallid jackal]

okay thanks

[potent relic]

feint, smokebomb, disarm

[drifting fable]

anyone knows if its wasted to enchant both weapons with acuity of the ren'dorei ?

[hazy breach]

It is not

[drifting fable]

because more procs/min?

[hazy breach]

No

You just get 2x as much agi when it procs

[brisk raptor]

can vouch that sparks of war def gives spark this week

[hollow spear]

So catch up sparks are a thing?

[clear scroll]

Which is performing better in dungeons? Sub or assa?

[swift tinsel]

historically have been

[keen dome]

Yes 🫡

[keen dome]

Should be. It'd be weird if they got rid of them this expansion

[swift tinsel]

yeah if they didn't have a catch-up for sparks that would make missing time quite detrimental

[keen dome]

I imagine they'll hotfix it and the only option being a pvp quest is an oversight 'cos the season isn't started so some stuff isn't rotating yet

[swift tinsel]

just seems very odd to have it be exlusively from that sparks of war quest for the first time ever

the second week

[keen dome]

Because it's almost certainly an oversight

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[keen dome]

they've always awarded the spark as an opinon since TWW

[plush roost]

I just mean hes able to work on it without having his attention sidelined for other things, which is good for the addon.

[swift tinsel]

right, but iirc this is the first time its been the only option

so def oversight

will see if they hotfix today

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

nice

[keen dome]

I assume it's going to be 'cos the weekly quests aren't all active and it's rolled ones that aren't so it'll get hotfixed

I imagine so much of this stuff is implemented months and months before it goes live and they just forgot to change it

the pre-season is always so messy

[swift tinsel]

for sure yeah

[astral axle]

I for one am looking forward to being an absolute menace in the voidstorm to all the people wanting to check off their box as soon as possible

[keen dome]

Hell yeah buddy

It's gremlin mode

[astral axle]

[brisk raptor]

assuming we get another spark next week won't we be able to craft a nice item with embellishment which then makes the blue veteran craft irrelevant? like assuming you've already crafted a wep with first 2 sparks

[keen dome]

You'll get 1 spark a week, yeah. So you could craft another 259 if you wanted on week 1 of the season (and then take it up if you spent heroic crests on it I guess)

[waxen matrix]

Whats the spark cap atm in Week 2?

[waxen matrix]

where do we get the third?

[keen dome]

Two from weeklies, one from the one-time world tour quest from Lor'themar

If you haven't got one this week it's 'cos it's on the Sparks of Radiance PvP quest and not on the proper weeklies yet

[waxen matrix]

so its a wait angle

?

[keen dome]

Or just go do the spark quest

[waxen matrix]

till the right weekly pops

[keen dome]

it'll take like 30 minutes

[astral axle]

Yuh

[orchid bay]

am i super blind or is ancient arts not in the buff menu in the cooldown manager?

[hazy breach]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

You cannot track the apex talents Ancient Arts through the cooldown manager. However they do show up via the ingame like THIS. If you cannot see them you must go into your settings and increase your Spell Alert Opacity. Some popular Addons (like ElvUI) disable these by default.

[orchid bay]

got ya- i figured i prob wasnt the only one wondering hehe

thanks!

[swift tinsel]

supposedly regular spark weekly quest is active now

[keen dome]

[sharp peak]

any easy one like last week's arcantina?

[signal bramble]

I crafted the bis wep

[swift tinsel]

idk I'm not on

[sharp peak]

https://giphy.com/gifs/muppetwiki-muppets-kermit-the-frog-xdLH51eNWZAHrwy5mf

[swift tinsel]

hence the "supposedly" qualifier

[light elbow]

how much of a gain is to force apex to proc at 5 pt of shadow technique

[sharp peak]

except you knew about it, so supposedly you could have known the path of least resistance

[hushed kelp]

Like 1.5% I believe.

[alpine wraith]

it changed after some checks

[sharp peak]

just like people knew last week to do the arcantina without logging on

[alpine wraith]

it is neutral now unless in bñl

where it is like 0.2 as trickster

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/smh-kermit-kermit-the-frog-muppet-muppets-gif-467850616214781464

[hushed kelp]

Oohhh nvm, no more 1.5% xD

[light elbow]

Thanks i guess i'll stop doing it for now i'm too focused on it and it makes me take too much damage :>

[light elbow]

even better i guess haha

[hushed kelp]

Pretty much yeah XD

[pallid jackal]

So I am reading the guide here, just for my understanding, you use shadowstrike when on full cp with < 5 shadow technique stacks, right? --> Why?

[vale pine]

because of apex

its simply a case of what does more damage

but the diffrence in the optimization became very low

and limiting the optimization to only bloodlust is slightly better

even then, its a very minor optimization now

[potent heath]

@vale pine Hi fuu, are u pvp player or mainly pve ?

[vale pine]

i don't play a lot of pvp

but we have a lot of pvp players hanging out in #pvp

[pallid jackal]

I see, so in those cases, shadowstrike does more damage than eviscerate, hence we want to do that sometimes. Thank you 🙂

So basically it is just a replacement of eviscerate then during hero? in terms of rotation

[vale pine]

the low impact was something we found recently

[pallid jackal]

okay thank you

[vale pine]

here is my message documenting it:
#1065728795455266888 message
and the bloodlust optimization:
#1065728795455266888 message

(the later is from earlier today)

[pallid jackal]

very nice though, the research

so you just spam shadowstrike over and over again?

[crystal quiver]

Whats the dps sim differences between nelf, orc, dwarf, panda

[jovial ginkgo]

panda panda panda

[vale pine]

no

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[vale pine]

you do this

or just ignore this play style

because 0.2% dps isn't that releavnt

(ignoring means not playing around it)

[shy scarab]

So if youndont have 5+ you use shadow strike even at full and then shadow evis shadow evis for apex right

And this is only during lust or pretty much sll shadow dance window

[valid drum]

Yo, anypoint in having 1 bind for backstab and 1 for shadowstrike ?

[hollow spear]

No

[alpine wraith]

i do but just because i got used to it

[hollow spear]

There were points where it made sense. Right now it doesn't.

[silver solstice]

Anyone actually still use backstab over gloom blade?

[limpid sage]

Like 99% of us

[silver solstice]

Is it functionally better in any way other than saving the talent point?

[limpid sage]

No gloomblade is better - it’s entirely because of the talent point

[silver solstice]

im assuming for stuff like improved secret tech for maximum one shot potential?

[stuck arrow]

Most people use backstab. Other talents more damage.

[silver solstice]

I was just missing it from a gameplay POV. it feels right to be rewarded more for standing behind stuff

[stuck arrow]

I mean back stab is basically just a filler button. As is gloomblade.

[rain vault]

Hi was curious what is the best use for subs 2 sparks? our daggers?

[half comet]

how good are embellishs this tier anyone got numbers for taht?

[young harness]

should i go ahead and craft wep or save spark?

[stuck arrow]

Only risk to crafting dagger is if Outlaw is fundamentally way better after tuning pass. Which I think it's unlikely. And even still you can still use the dagger as OL offhand.

[rain vault]

Didn't even think about that to be real. So maybe would be best just to hold off until the 17th patch notes hit and then go from there?

[stuck arrow]

I think it's fine to craft.

[rain vault]

roger. thanks man.

[subtle jay]

for apex proc u can change this to make it more visible

[vestal escarp]

im missing a key detail, do WM and nado clones give you cp on top of the apex2 sht?

[near charm]

I am the only one having a bug with the apex talent ? When I have ancient arts up (suppose to refill my combo point after my next spender), if I use the proc with secret techniques sometimes it consume the proc but doesn't refill.
If yes I will always eviscerate first to consume the proc then secret technique.

[hazy breach]

They do not

(they should)

[vestal escarp]

and apex1 does not but souldnt?

[hazy breach]

Apex 1 should

And it does

Or wait nvm

I misspoke

[vestal escarp]

it doesnt

[hazy breach]

the apex2 sht

Does not proc at all from WM or nado

and wm or nado itself does not give any cp

[vestal escarp]

and they shouldnt give cp, like apex1

right?

[hazy breach]

They should proc apex2 sht

But they dont

All clones, including apex1, secret technique and wm/nado should proc apex2

But wm/nado does not

[vestal escarp]

and none should give cps

clear

[hazy breach]

Yeah theres nothing that says they should give cp anywhere

[alpine wraith]

yea clones are its own thing kinda mechanically

[vestal escarp]

just cause WM and reworked nado used to give em before being turned into clones

[tulip light]

i was a bit confused while hitting the dummy as i wasnt able to get 2x dance inside blades - turns out the Sample Ability Log im looking at doesnt do it either (only during lust in opener). so we just skip this "optimization" at the moment?

[haughty sedge]

if secret tech is on CD should you open shadow dance with evis or use it before

[tulip light]

if secret tech is on cd you dont use dance (only during lust opener where u chain dances)

[haughty sedge]

what if you would cap dance charges

[tulip light]

you wont as they have the same cd

[wicked bear]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[indigo gorge]

so you hold your second dance for sec tec instead of sending it?

[tulip light]

if its outside of lust / blades yes

[tawny marlin]

What ilvl is everyone

[indigo gorge]

thanks, why is it NOT a dps loss to hold it instead of sending it SD then?

[tulip light]

because if at all you want to try to send 2x during blades as it is the biggest dps increase

[indigo gorge]

thank you, appreciated

[haughty sedge]

so during lust should you pop second dance as soon as the other ends, say your 1st ends and you are 0 CP cause you just evis, should you pop the second and shadowstrike or should you just BS to get full CP from shadow tech and then pop dance/evis? (basically is it more optimal to try to fit as many evis inside dance)??

[native falcon]

Is it normal to be pressing 1 button every like 2-3 seconds outside of dance?

[stuck arrow]

Yes.

[tulip light]

just send second dance and press finishers naturally as they come during dance

usually you want to enter dance on high cp (as trickster) i doubt the one very special case in the opener will chance anything. just send it

[tulip light]

235 +/- is decent i guess (after m0, hard preys and sending adventurer crests)

[hollow compass]

are there any general bis sims for rogue yet? i looked around and didnt see anything, not sure if theres a spreadsheet or something

[hazy breach]

90s haste on-use and the aln trinket

[hollow compass]

not gear, i meant like raw dps sims

as compared to other specs

(obviously tuning inc next week just curious)

[warm marlin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow compass]

ty

[warm marlin]

is updated relatively frequently

[hollow compass]

has anyone put together a combined spreadsheet with all other specs?

[alpine wraith]

man that alnseer trink might get nerfed again

it is quite good for so many people

[young harness]

is it recommended to bind shadow blades with shadow dance?

[alpine wraith]

no

[hazy breach]

Thats probably on purpose

[alpine wraith]

because ideally you have blades with pot and trink apart from dance

[hazy breach]

To make sure you do the "optional" 1 boss raid

Just like boots were added to the "optional" DH boss

[alpine wraith]

he does drop omnitoken i think but yea trink is cracked

[young harness]

i thought u always sent shadow blades with dance tho?

[alpine wraith]

ah nvm it is chest

if you macro it together the haste things like trinket or pot wont affect the dance

so you need to do it a bit before

[warm marlin]

he does also drop a riftshroom housing decor piece!

[young harness]

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Secret Technique
/use Tempered Potion
/use 13
/use 14

been using this

should i change

[alpine wraith]

yea take dance off

and sec tech

you can have pots+blades and trink on 1

then dance+sec tech on another

[limpid sage]

It’s fine to throw them all together no?

Don’t think there’s a time when you don’t send sectec first gcd of dance

[swift tinsel]

You wanna dance a lil bit after so it inherits your haste trinket

[warm marlin]

muh deepening shadows doesn't update instantly in a macro

[limpid sage]

Maybe if coup?

[warm marlin]

needs slight human delay

[limpid sage]

Ahhh

[swift tinsel]

Since like ryldd said the duration doesn’t update insta

[limpid sage]

/castsequence Shadow Blades, Shadow Dance
/castsequence null, Secret Technique

Should work right?

[alpine wraith]

yea needs a server tick

so around 0.03

if you macro they all go together

and you lose 3 secs of dance pog

or well 2 because we use main stat pot

[lilac stag]

don’t the off gcd abilities all go off at once even with the cast sequence

[alpine wraith]

you cant catsecuence off gcd yea

[limpid sage]

What really?

[vale pine]

if you want to macro things

put trinkets with blades

and dance with secret

[warm marlin]

in my opinion it is faster to just put 2 macros right beside each other and double press them

than to hit one button twice

[limpid sage]

Ye it is

Was just thinking for pure brain off macro

Not that there’s a ton of stuff taking up your mental capacity now

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/shrek-really-really-really-gif-25729794

[zealous kiln]

Question about Ancient Arts. If i fuck up, and use shadowstrike after a finisher which procs ancient arts. Do i just lose those stacks of shadow techniques functionally? as I would have generated the combo points

[azure whale]

I am having trouble some times managing my energy, some pulls or bosses i run out and i have to "stand still" doing nothing for 1 second or so, is this normal or am i just the worst player in the server

[west tide]

guys wheni craft what crests do i usehehe

[hollow spear]

Definitely the worst player on the server

[west tide]

ya

[sick sand]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[tulip light]

try and cast backstab only at 60+ energy

[hazy breach]

You will run out of energy outside dance

It doesnt really matter

[half comet]

was that optimization alwasy only during lust?

[shell willow]

Nah thats new.

[half comet]

also if im doing it right you just never consume the extra combo points u get youre just builder spender for that optimization

[arctic heart]

with how many target we swithc to normal rotation?

[dense geode]

So if we cancel aura Apex talent

Where does the gain lie?

Does it have an ICD or something that when it reprocs it will just happen?

[hazy breach]

You can just reprocc it again yes

[spring heart]

Ok how much of a gain is it really to optimize the apex talent like that, while wasting like 7 combo points?

[dense geode]

So What does canceling it do if we are just reprocing it?

[spring heart]

Are we talking like 2% or like 20?

[hazy breach]

Its wasting 2/4 combo points, not 7. But not entirely sure as of now

[hazy breach]

Not sure why youre cancelling it

[dense geode]

thats what wowhead says

[spring heart]

Oh it feels like I get 7 combo points almost every time I hit backstab, so I thought it would waste that much

[hazy breach]

You do

But its because shadow techniques

Which cannot overcap

[spring heart]

My bad. Also, your guides are awesome. Keep it up

[hazy breach]

A. Thats not really relevant after they bugfixed the apex to work on DN.
B. It was to not waste the 7 sht stacks on eviscerate, but instead use it on BP

As it only reproccs when you press a builder

[dense geode]

ok so doesnt matter just send the evis and carry on no cancelaura

[zealous kiln]

wait so spam shadowstrike at full combo points and then dump eviscerates when out of dance? is that correct?

[swift tinsel]

no

you alternate strike->evisc if you have enough shadow techniques stacks

and don't have the ancient arts buff active

[brazen mesa]

This pin says we only do the apex optimization during lust but it did not mention that in the wowhead guide. Do we know which way is best to optimize for the apex only during lust or at all time when the conditions are met ?

[spring heart]

Pretty sure it's just during lust

[swift tinsel]

it is

[stuck arrow]

The pin and the guide are written by the same person, the guide is out of date.

[obsidian surge]

so are we crafting weap this week?

[tulip light]

If u want to you can yes

[obsidian surge]

thank you brother

[stable marlin]

Just curious, I know it varies but about how much gold has it been for some of yall to craft your dagger?

[loud wharf]

Alright who has the UI hookup. I have been playing with a UI that's BUNS. Nothing in pins regarding UI

[short radish]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short radish]

check out luxthos for a good free one

[loud wharf]

Baller, wouldnt be opposed to a good paid one somewhere either. I miss WAs There is no Wangbar profile it would seem

[short radish]

https://uipacks.wago.io/

paid ones are here

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/calculation-math-hangover-allen-zach-galifianakis-gif-6219070

This channel trying to figure out ancient arts.

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-math-math-cat-numbers-cat-funny-gif-13385485103134761656

After one update.

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stuck arrow]

Depends on your server and the market.

Also how pressed you are for top quality / ilvl.

You can ask your crafter, then I'd recommend giving a decent tip on top of that to guarantee they spend the concentration.

Mats only like 25k.

On my server anyway.

[stable marlin]

That’s not too bad, I appreciate the response, I was mostly curious because some enchants are giga expensive , I didn’t want to send 100k on a craft to do it again in a week or so

[wispy sparrow]

Hi, I don't quite understand how the FAQ rule "Make sure to always get 2 SDs during SB by holding SD + ST if SB has less than 10 seconds left of its cooldown" is meant to ensure that at all. Example situation in the picture

am I missing something?

[pine oyster]

If I’m not mistaken, you kinda don’t want to get into the situation where SB is off cooldown and your waiting for SD and Secteq

[wispy sparrow]

Then you would have to hold SD+ST much longer than 10 seconds

[pine oyster]

It’s better to delay SD and ST 10 seconds than delay SB for 10 seconds

[tribal vortex]

In the first image you should have 2 charges

also delaying SB for 10 is not a great deal if it means losing a cast of st

ST is the main cd you should prioritise, also depends on timings

SB ends up being more like a 100sec cd

[wispy sparrow]

Then I think the FAQ needs some info on when to start pooling SD charges for SB, because currently it's "always send SD unless SB cooldown <10s"

[tribal vortex]

you send SD only with ST

so you cannot end up in the image position

the whole rotation is based around ST

this is the anchor

[wispy sparrow]

Huh, you absolutely can? Send SD+ST on pull, at 20 secs again, at 40 secs again, at 60 secs again, and then at 80 secs you are exactly in my first image, with SD+ST ready and SB still 10 secs off

[short radish]

it's kind of a juggling act

but the decision process is basically "what will i lose the least casts of"

if you won't lose another cast of sblade, it's fine to hold it for a little

for example if it's a 5:30 fight, you can pop sblades off cd at 00:00 1:30 3:00 and 4:30

alternatively you could press at 00:00 1:45 3:30 and 5:15

and you've lost 0 casts

but it means you've casted sectech off cooldown

but say the fight is 4:40 then you'd need to adjust to make sure you're casting sblade off cd

[wispy sparrow]

that make sense to me, my point was just that with the rotational rules as they are in the FAQ, you can not guarantee two charges of SD within each SB

[swift tinsel]

blades is not as impactful as dance+sectech so you now hold blades for those instead of the other way around

[pine oyster]

Ahh thanks for the info! Appreciate it

[swift tinsel]

ye the script got kinda flipped with the rework

[lilac stag]

The enchants at present are all selling for below material cost.

[pine oyster]

Mainly because epics to disenchant are few and far between without raid and m+ out

[lilac stag]

Dawn crystals are also the weekly.

[stuck arrow]

We're kind of lucky. Sub Enchantress are cheap.

But yeah, buy now before the rush.

[stable marlin]

Looks like im crafting a dagger tonight gang

[lilac stag]

36k for a weapon enchant isn’t exactly cheap.

[swift tinsel]

I'd rather throw that gold at rare profession gear lol

[stuck arrow]

They'll be more on heroic week.

[tribal vortex]

Also this is with tier set, where you will almost fit a second ST in blades, so then it will be very different

[wispy sparrow]

Not really, in my example situation the second charge would then come up exactly when SB ends 😅

[lilac stag]

Tier set makes blades 20seconds. You’re fine with 684-700 haste and the raid trinket

[wispy sparrow]

Haste does not reduce the cooldown of SD so I don't see how that changes anything

[lilac stag]

it reduces Sectech

which is what the entire spec plays around

[wispy sparrow]

... but you don't cast ST without SD so you're waiting for the SD cooldown anyway

[alpine wraith]

not really with trinket second sec tech comes around 3 or 4 secs inside second dance

with bl earlier

[lilac stag]

on pull you have 2 charges. Second sblades you delay 10 seconds to have 2 charges of same during it.

[wispy sparrow]

Please look at my image above

That scenario happens every time at 80 seconds into a ST fight

[tribal vortex]

Sec tec is not fixed cd it gets lower with haste

probably you have low haste at the moment

but with tier set and haste it will fit inside

[wispy sparrow]

You will not have a second charge of SD for the second SB in the fight

[lilac stag]

you delay sblades 10 seconds.

[wispy sparrow]

You would also have to delay SD+ST then

[alpine wraith]

let me tell you a secret

dance recharges cd while you are on it

i mean not much more we can do you can just try it

trust

[lilac stag]

Have you ever played sub before this version?

[wispy sparrow]

I am fully aware and you don't need to be condescending, that still does not change the situation

[alpine wraith]

it will be fine

[lilac stag]

lining up CDs is what we do

if you just want to fire stuff off on CD, while you can do it, it’s never going to line up everything.

[wispy sparrow]

You are still not understanding me I think. Step by step. This is the situation 80 seconds into the fight. SD and ST ready, SB still 10 seconds off

I would send SD+ST here as the FAQ says, yes?

[lilac stag]

No

you’d wait for blades. Hit haste trinket with it and go to town

[wispy sparrow]

The FAQ says to only hold SD+ST if the cooldown of SB is <10s.

[lilac stag]

you’re second dance will be up 10 seconds into blades

[wispy sparrow]

right here

[pine oyster]

Yes, you need two SD, if you sent SD, you’d only have 1 charge when you wanna send during SB

[wispy sparrow]

SB cooldown in my image is >=10s therefore I would send. If this is wrong, then the FAQ is not accurate.

[tribal vortex]

I will once again pinpoint that the situation is entirely different with haste and tier set. Now you hit 2 SD in SB and then another one 20 sec in fight but when you have tier set you hit 2 SD in SB and then when the next ST comes up you have almost 2sd charges

[swift tinsel]

I save blades for when my second dance cd is =< the duration of my dance

[lilac stag]

If your cd is showing 10 second then is actually less than 10

[smoky geyser]

You are not reading it correctly.

[lilac stag]

Argue what you want. FAQ is fine.

[smoky geyser]

Its saying if A, then B. It doesnt mean if not A then do not B. Computer science flaw in logic.

[pine oyster]

If you sent that SD, you then have 1 charge coming up in 20 seconds, and the second coming up in 40 seconds, you have SB up in 10 and want 2 charges of SD in it.

[lilac stag]

math be a struggle I guess

[pine oyster]

So there forever you hold your SD otherwise SB is getting way too delayed.

[lilac stag]

if you send dance there. You’re now holding everything later

which is why I stated at the start you hold sblade 10 seconds typically

[tribal vortex]

With these numbers you don't even need to hold at all

[lilac stag]

but you’re here looking for a gotcha moment it feels like. deciphering text intent in a multi lingual discord chat is a struggle

[tribal vortex]

you just lost an ST and send SB at 90sec

[lilac stag]

Which means they likely missed a dance earlier

[tribal vortex]

This I think happens when haste is around 10% or something

[lilac stag]

this is the shit point of an expansion. People freaking out over m0 and rules when they have low ilvl and no tier.

https://tenor.com/view/help-me-gif-19485867

[pine oyster]

Quick question about enchants.. say I craft a dagger, put the acuity enchant on it and use as my mh, then a better dagger drops so the crafted dagger drops to my offhand, can I enchant the new main hand with arcane mastery? Or do I need to enchant acuity onto the mh and redo the offhand crafted with arcane mastery?

Basically I’m saying is there any difference between a mh and oh enchant?

[lilac stag]

What weapon it’s should make next to zero difference

just don’t use a 1h in offhand slot

[stable marlin]

Question about upgrading our adventurer gear, if I have enough dawncrest to completely upgrade the rest of these blues is there any reason to hold them? They wont be used for anything else anyway right?

[pine oyster]

Awesome! Would just save some gold then having to re enchant

[hazy breach]

No

Just enchant the agility one on both

[lilac stag]

I think wowhead has mastery

[tribal vortex]

only reason to not craft now is gold of re crafting 1st week

[lilac stag]

On one

[pine oyster]

Oh really? The guide reckons acuity on one, arcane mastery on the other?!

[lilac stag]

Or the profile

Shit maybe both

[hazy breach]

Yeah because up until around a few days ago simc didnt properly parse having 2 of them

Its the exact same as having a mastery one

But having two of the same is just easier to explain

[pine oyster]

Ahh thanks for the update!

The Gold Cost of a recraft with mythic crests from a no crest craft won’t be too expensive when the initial craft is only like 30k

[lilac stag]

I’m trying to explain cd timelines and I just need the TVA to come and prune this timeline.

[pine oyster]

Compared to having a 259 wep for first week heroic clear

[lilac stag]

Well if you get a nice heroic dagger you may leave the crafted at 259 for a bit depending on what you do with mythic stuff

[tribal vortex]

it is my first expansion where I play at release and feel like 30k is just too much 😂

[pine oyster]

Wouldn’t ya need 2 nice heroic daggers? If you got 1, the crafted then just goes into the oh

[lilac stag]

only need one. The crafted just goes to oh. Eventually replace the heroic with a mythic.

The 4 ilvl increase from crafted to mythic was about .6% when Stealthi ran it

So those crests would be better spent on big stat gear over the oh

[pine oyster]

Yeah that’s what I’m saying, why not craft a 259 to benefit early heroic clear, then can always just get relegated to the offhand and eventually recrafted to 285

[alpine wraith]

that is correct and what a lot of us have done

[pine oyster]

Haste mastery missive?

[gloomy bone]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[astral axle]

astalor's voice actor kinda nasty with it no?

[potent walrus]

guys when your in single target boss fight and you need to go into shadow dance at beginnig do you use secret technique while in the window or do you just spam shadowstriek until you get 5 or more stacks of shadowtechniques to use eviscerate? and also do you use secret technique whiel in shadow strike window at any given point during the boss fight?

[half comet]

whats teh weakest talent i can replace for a fast shroud for m0s

[hazy breach]

The healing from spenders

[torpid echo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[half comet]

exhilarating execution?

[hazy breach]

yes

[half comet]

kk thx

[wintry heart]

Did I read correctly that we don’t have to game around the apex anymore

[teal prism]

Is it just me that hates the visuals of CBK not being applied to both hands?

[pine oyster]

I kinda hate the visual to begin with, classes with the mongoose illusion on my weapons haha

[teal prism]

Yeah, I could live without it altogether

[icy tinsel]

is it still worth to spend a generator in CDs for ancent arts with >5 stacks of Shadow Tec? Seen alot of liquid streamers doing it etc

[alpine wraith]

it is neutral right now only a win in bl

around 0.2

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade am I doing it right?

[tribal blade]

nice

[lilac stag]

I didnt realize those swords are seath on back

[stable plume]

hey does the champ renown trinket just suck or are sims bad?

[zenith jolt]

Nice transmog!

Question, is crafting 246 gear (no spark crafts) with vet crests the best use for them now? Are you applying embellishments to them?

[lilac stag]

you want 2 embellishments before next week

[stable plume]

seems like champ trink just cheeks or not implemented

[zenith jolt]

So we’re crafting blue 246 vet gear?

[lilac stag]

or a 259 dagger

[young harness]

if we have ancient arts up do we send eviscerate/coup de or shadowdance/secret tech if both are up

[lilac stag]

Secret strike coup

[brisk onyx]

What weapon enhancement?

[lilac stag]

Nightmare

[brisk onyx]

👍

[half comet]

drop the mog set

[timber quiver]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[wide shale]

why is bloodmallet showing some trinkets as highest simming? is that just not accurate?

[half comet]

wheres that duelist's piece from looks nice

[lilac stag]

[hazy breach]

Yes it'll be fixed when they rerun their sims

[lilac stag]

Is it still using bad mastery number?

[bleak night]

trial of style

[dire ravine]

looks like a sick delve companion

[brisk onyx]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[atomic steeple]

dam outlaw better than sub rn?

[lilac stag]

Always is in sims

[stuck arrow]

Theoretically, sure.

Unless tuning changes not enough to be practically sub likely still better.

[light nebula]

is it pretty safe to throw a craft on embellished farstriders mercy at this point?

[spiral steeple]

so why only ST during dance?

[fair phoenix]

someone tried this trink

seems rlly good

[lilac stag]

Why do you think? (Yes this is a test)

[lilac stag]

If it’s not your mh it’s going to be your offhand

[spiral steeple]

ngl I haven't read the talents

just copied the build

more damage amp during dance prob

[gray jungle]

Supercharging

[lilac stag]

guides are there for a reason.

We play around that spell

while sub is much simpler now. It’s still needs understanding of how the CDs work / align

[brazen steppe]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[crystal atlas]

How do we show the apex talent lines?

[lilac stag]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

You cannot track the apex talents Ancient Arts through the cooldown manager. However they do show up via the ingame like THIS. If you cannot see them you must go into your settings and increase your Spell Alert Opacity. Some popular Addons (like ElvUI) disable these by default.

[zenith jolt]

@lilac stag Sorry to bug you again, do embellishments stack? Specifically the ones that give you stats?

[crystal atlas]

does UUF hide the opacity?

[lilac stag]

You get 2.

[zenith jolt]

So more uptime?

[lilac stag]

the stats will (or should) dbl

Sorry wasn’t clear

[zenith jolt]

Hmm okay

Thank you again

[torn tide]

is sub good for raiding?

[plain oasis]

let me run the raid real quick and let you know

[mighty crow]

im just looking between sub and assassin atm. i feel they arnt that much apart at least in AOE

[swift tinsel]

it might, a lot of addons set the opacity to 0%

[plush roost]

Sub should be ahead in pure aoe while assa does better priority damage within its aoe

[mighty crow]

hmm its hard for me to tell with the built in DPS charts there doin about the same

[idle aurora]

is gertting to the haste breakpoint super important? it seems like my dps is ultra lagging vs my frands

im doing half dps of my ice mage friend and like 75% of unholy

[short radish]

yeah but also dont worry about things

balancing patch will come next week

everyones gear is wack

tier isnt out

balancing doesnt exist

[rich canopy]

That's a lot of copium

[mighty crow]

i mean there right

[short radish]

it's less copium but more there's no point worrying about it now when things are going to change in a week

currently nothing matters this week. there is no timer or end game content impossible to clear

maybe nothing gets buffed next week for rogue

but that's a next week problem when things actually matter

[loud wharf]

Any specific way we should be simming in Raidbots to optimize for M+? There is tons of settings and coming from classic to retail not sure what to sim.

[heavy moat]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[silk fiber]

So this is more of a general question but is anyone else aware of the rogue bug on the last boss of lightbloom?

Where you can make him skip the orb phase

[torn tide]

ive never heard of it, whats the trick?

[short radish]

of the trade

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

[silk fiber]

If you Shroud around the pack right in front of the boss and DONT pull them the boss just... doesn't ever do his orb phase. It turns the fight into ak auto win as long as you kill the plants with the beam

[obtuse dirge]

does anyone know of a way to track The First Dance countdown buff?

[torn tide]

comedic genius

[short radish]

thanks. unfortunately i'm here all day so you're stuck with me

[torn tide]

oh wat

[silk fiber]

Yeah I make heavy use of shroud because its implications to skip tough packs and its recreatable every time normal heroic and mythix

Just did it 10 minutes ago in a normal for a guildie who is still leveling

[wooden compass]

Hey guys. What are your thoughts on the spec in M? Does it compete?

My entire extended friend group is getting on for pve, and the only two classes that were left were rogue and mage. Just deciding between the 2

[short radish]

if you have a choice pick mage, always mage

if you hate yourself and your life though

then yeah play rogue

[wooden compass]

LOL yeah thats what it seems like

[silk fiber]

I think the spec plays well and is fun, im pretty consistently putting up good numbers (over 140k) on aoe and single target i hover around 35 to 40k ish

[wooden compass]

im almost to 90 on my rg, leveled my mage first. Honestly sub feels just as fun as frost (Never really played either hardcore)

Always tanked and healed, but somehow the fill spot is in dps lol

[short radish]

so rogue is fun (subjective)

[lusty acorn]

Dont forget we have 2 more times tunning maybe we got buff

[short radish]

a lot of us here enjoy it

but utility wise, mages bring way more to the table

also if someone in your group isnt playing shaman

then definitely don't play rogue

[silk fiber]

Also its infinitely funny telling my tank i got a mob pack and then having them run at him because 1 hour tricks go brrr

[wooden compass]

interesting. You thiink it will get buffed then?

cause honestly where mage is at damage numbers wise I was assuming it was going to get hard on the 17th

[short radish]

give the history of the last however many expansions there have been since tbc

no

damage numbers are only one part of the equation

[wooden compass]

well yeah - but the ultility they have

those numbers are crazy

[lusty acorn]

.

[wooden compass]

but i guess you're right. Ill just have both at 90 and see which one i like more tbh

I value PvP fun way higher than M+. but just cause all my friends want to run dungeons i guess i need to think about it

[short radish]

end of the day, play what you enjoy the most

there are a number of considerations to make if you're filling in a slot to be with a certain group

[wooden compass]

well thanks yeah. Youre right

[short radish]

but fun is the most important consideration

[wooden compass]

nah honestly i got forced off my main class

[short radish]

or at least should be

[wooden compass]

im playing biggest dps number and most fun

LMAO

idc about comp

[short radish]

fair

well if you're in a premade, a lot of the issues of playing rogue wont matter as well

since you wont have trouble finding pug groups

[wooden compass]

oh true! And hopefully if we start pushing keys my IO will speak for me a bit more

well thank you. This was helpful. Might be joining the cult cant lie. We will see

[short radish]

👍

tl;dr rogue utility sucks in all forms of content except pvp i guess (damage might be good, dunno wait for 17th). mage a shit ton of utility and is also doing bonkers damage

but also have fun

[bleak night]

tldr play mage

[short radish]

fuck i hate 18 year old me for deciding to play rogue as my first char

stupid little shitty edge lord

[young heart]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

did they fix the spark thing on na?

[plush roost]

Ye

Beta tested for yall across the big blue sea

[alpine wraith]

thx

[soft summit]

Are we able to use our adventurer crests to upgrade or should we hold off spending any crests?

[dire ravine]

do what ur heart tells u to do

[primal pasture]

you can use adventure

but not the tier up

crests

before you go hc raid

[mellow smelt]

any reason not to do wrist as my second craft? currently have veteran or better for all slots except wrist, leg, feet

[primal pasture]

Ccant craft this week

[tulip light]

should be fine

[fossil forge]

https://tenor.com/view/cute-adorable-duckling-haha-classic-gif-17283485

[vale pine]

good morning lovely people

[graceful crown]

morning!

[dawn heron]

morning ✨

[graceful crown]

hmmm idk if i should enchant with arcane mastery or acuity, last one is better in ST and the other one in aoe

[primal pasture]

i think st cause we have big aoe dmg

[raven blaze]

whats supposed to be the length of our shadow dance? 7.4 seconds? or 7.5?

[graceful crown]

yeah was thinking the same, we have a lot of powder to throw

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

[jaunty heath]

bro did not the PVP weekly qeust said that it award 259 Ring or neck?

i got medalion 😄

201 ilvl

[short radish]

4 week quest

[wheat edge]

no, it says at the end of the quest line (is like a 4 week quest)

[jaunty heath]

brosku

i was scammed

pvp bots for nothing

[short radish]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-timegated-4-week-pvp-quest-chain-to-earn-hero-track-gear-380708

[vestal fog]

Well not for nothing 276 neck in 3 more weeks

[jaunty heath]

fuck reading

[short radish]

trueeee

[short radish]

should be 259

the tooltip on wowhead is wrong

[jaunty heath]

i was gaming

[vestal fog]

Ah fuck it’s for nothing then

[jaunty heath]

yeah

in 3 weeks its useless

[short radish]

it's for the casuals not the sweats like you guys

[jaunty heath]

sorry

was excited

[short radish]

that's okay, please ensure your expecations are more tempered from now on

i think if it's good stats though it's not bad

week 3 we'd still be using heroic stuff

[jaunty heath]

its ok time to disarm some traps

[young harness]

whats the proper timing to make sure i can send 2 shadow dances on 2nd and 3rd shadow blades

[tulip light]

i looked at the apl yesterday about it and outside of lust it doesnt force 2x dance during blades. id just play it normaly and if it happens to line if you hold dance / sec tech for not longer than 10s its fine

[rancid sierra]

I got this and its simming +600 dps over my vessel of tortured souls, is that assuming you stand in beam %100 of time? Is this trink bait?

[short radish]

@teal coral see, there are numerous people who read the APL to understand the rotation

if it works it works

[olive canyon]

Ayije CDM seems legit as a new addon

[alpine wraith]

if the vessel you mean the renown trinket yea it got a hefty nerf so many others are better

[rancid sierra]

no this

\

[alpine wraith]

the core is good

just the % uptime cant be simmed really well because first it has to proc

then you stand on it

but even at low % it is very decent

[rancid sierra]

I assume the sim is %100 uptime though? in the beam that you stand in?

[celest wyvern]

that beam is useless tbh

[alpine wraith]

you will see it when it spawns it is a big yellow beam

it is not useless tho quite a bit of mastery

[celest wyvern]

yeah it is but as a rogue u have to stay so close to target and mechanics wont let u even stand in there for more than 1 sec

i tried it 3 4 dungeons and it feels u are playing with one trinket instead of 2\

[teal coral]

I'm gonna kms

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[short radish]

👍

[teal coral]

my job is going to be obsolete soon

why have guides when can read apl

[short radish]

hey chat gpt turn this apl into a rotation guide for world of warcraft

[teal coral]

no generative ai at wowhead

never will be

[short radish]

uhuh

[teal coral]

as much as the wowhead comments would want to have you believe that wowhead is written by chatgpt

[bleak night]

[teal coral]

we had some classic and d4 writers submit guides where they wrote shit with AI

and they got fired on the spot

[short radish]

any and all mistakes are because the writer was just stupid

like crafting agi 2h weaps on boomkins

only authentic mistakes here

no hallucinations

[vale pine]

lol

[bleak night]

that was intentional

[alpine wraith]

dont worry we have our own crop of int dagger users

[bleak night]

the writer is a double agent

[vale pine]

why would anyone do that

[alpine wraith]

because it works everywhere else

[teal coral]

our editor bandwidth in terms of both humans and tools the humans use to edit the guides on-site

are uh

lacking.

[alpine wraith]

i deal with this shit every day nowadays

[modern sentinel]

The int worked since they noticed after

[alpine wraith]

damn bitg

if you have 0 int then equip int item

realize

aaaaaaaaaaaaa

[analog granite]

Are all tanks just busted rn dmg wise or is it just bear and prot pally?

[alpine wraith]

dont worry monk is also busted

[analog granite]

I've done a couple m0's with templar prot pally and their dmg is insane

[short radish]

bear does the most damage out of all the druid specs

[modern sentinel]

I also busted

[short radish]

im not even joking

[rancid sierra]

havent seen a feral yet

[analog granite]

I watched some "feral druid" pvp and the dude was just in bear form 99% of the time

[short radish]

yeah because they all swap to bear druid

10 seconds into the dungeon

[analog granite]

I kinda wanna lvl a druid now before it gets nerfed

[short radish]

i was one o fthem

[analog granite]

Same for lock tho

[short radish]

you have a week

[teal coral]

"write a paragraph explaining important stats X diablo 4 build" is easier than having to actually come up with it yourself I guess. And like frankly if they did that and then reworded it to make it sound human, it probably would've been fine, but when you get a guide submitted that goes "Intellect isn't just a damage multiplier, it's the core stat of the class—a pillar of itemization that everyone should look for in Diablo 4" then like, cmon

[short radish]

its a good time to level as guardian

thats for sure

[analog granite]

In hindsight I shouldn't have leveled rogue second since it's probably gonna get buffed after 17th

Rather than nerfed I mean

[modern sentinel]

You did it pre buff,brag about it

[short radish]

[analog granite]

At least I can go farm lowbies in wpvp now

[short radish]

sub rogue is doing way too much damage in pvp (it's allowed to kill things)

[bleak night]

sub is pretty fun in warmode ngl

[teal coral]

idk, AI tools are genuinely really good, but generative AI specifically is just such an awful slop no matter what you try and do with it

[analog granite]

Yeah that's kinda why I leveled rogue after my dk. Wanted to mess around with sub in pvp before it gets bonked

It's always strong on expansion release then gets shot and left to bleed out over the rest of the expansion

[bleak night]

they never learn to sandbag

smh

[vale pine]

architectural, the generative (diffusion) logic is more creative, you see certain companies start to incorparate it in regular text models for writing

[analog granite]

I really don't know how I feel about sub in pve tho. On one hand it's way too simple and should instantly bore me in theory. But idk it just feels so smooth and that makes it kinda fun

If only aoe had some extra button or used shadowstrike more often instead of just shuriken + bp

[vale pine]

think subtlety is one of the winners in pve

you need to slightly re-think for midnight

everything got simpler, so having a fun rotation is already a big win

[valid marsh]

feel the same in pvp, boring as hell

got the fire mage treatment

[analog granite]

Yeah I guess but I just don't really like shuriken bp spam

[valid marsh]

zero skill expression

[analog granite]

But if it's shadowstrike evisc spam it's fine to me

Shuriken and bp just don't feel as satisying to press maybe

[uncut juniper]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Bubbling wax:

• Can be pickpocketed from kobolds in e.g. The Ringing Deeps. (needs The Final Candle questline completed.)
• Only use it on one weapon. (does not stack)

[valid marsh]

wow just has zero idea what rogues are, every game does rogues better

[mortal snow]

Skill expression comes from your CC. Blind, kidney shot, cheap shot, kick, etc.

[valid marsh]

thats basic mechanics

"press your cc button"

[alpine wraith]

skill expression is not welcome here anymore

that one died a while ago

now you just enjoy the team game

[vale pine]

think its just hard to design rogue well without breaking some conventions in an mmorpg

[valid marsh]

thats fair

[vale pine]

e.g. the glass cannon design is rly good in arpgs

like diablo

[valid marsh]

its just other games handle the rogue fantasy and playstyle better even in games that dont have stealth

[vale pine]

but for the glass cannon to feel similarly good in mmorpgs

you need to allow rogue to do massive amounts of damage

[teal coral]

yeah, diffusion is genuinely really cool but when it replaces people it's a bit

I think honestly the best use of gen ai I've seen in gaming is nexon turning your character into full artwork for dialogue boxes. It's not a job that could reasonably be done by artists in pieces with all the cosmetics/customizations. But then again nexon also released some dogshit blockchain NFT stuff so ya know

[analog granite]

Gw2 has peak rogue imo

[alpine wraith]

ai is only going to get better thankfuly

so i dont have to deal with someone messing up as often as time goes on

[vale pine]

^ but that does not work well for tuning

also at least for solo content

[valid marsh]

catch 22

[vale pine]

rogue has a certain "stop" in flow when you use cc

you often wait for cooldowns

which does not feel fluid

[alpine wraith]

remember when we had a 12 second kidney

silly times eh

[mortal snow]

Weaving in the CC fluidly is the skill expression. Also Knowing how to use feint, evasion, and cloak offensively to keep up damage it defensively to help healer.

[valid marsh]

thats every class lmao

[vale pine]

I think the best use of the entire ai tooling is in support of artist, not as an replacement.
Re-lighting, adding texture, colorizing. Things artists already used tools before to speed up the process more or less.

[teal coral]

yeah exactly

[valid marsh]

Keep it away from coding

feels like everyday theres a new breach or issue

[vale pine]

my 2c on coding

[teal coral]

but how else would you get midnight addons

[valid marsh]

MVQ would be in shambles

[vale pine]

if you used windows 11 in the last year

[valid marsh]

[vale pine]

you know how well it works for coding

[valid marsh]

windows 10 22H2 gamer for 6 years lmao

[vale pine]

they wrote 30%+ of their code using ai

and now need to spend millions in getting people to manually fix the mess

[valid marsh]

Idk ive seen so many people pretending to be coders using ai like its not the most obvious unstructured dog doodoo ever

[vale pine]

even baseline windows functionality broke

[valid marsh]

Espically in the c++ scene

And the "jobs" it was supposed to replace has not happened lmao

[teal coral]

I mean, I'm pretty convinced that like 80%+ of midnight addons are ai, like even this stupid /played tracker is ai

[vale pine]

you are correct on that

[keen dome]

Or Nvidia drivers

[vale pine]

there was a lot of drama

[keen dome]

yeah, the amount of slop addons is kinda wild

[vale pine]

at the start of pre patch iirc

around addon authors copying from each other

[valid marsh]

which is funny because this would literally be 2 call backs and done in an afternoon

but cant blame them

[vale pine]

turns out, a lot of the "copy" stuff is both using the same ai model

[valid marsh]

if it works it works

[vale pine]

and generating very similar code

[teal coral]

which makes it hard to highlight addons on wowhead because the community holds us accountable for "showcasing AI addons"

so now we just

don't

[keen dome]

Naturally

[valid marsh]

AI slop coders like MVQ calling out other people for "stolen code" is dumb as hell though

[teal coral]

fair enough, find the addons yourself then

[keen dome]

Also you can't do funny comments if you don't know how to write the code. that's the real benefit

[short radish]

posting my hot shit take again that rogues (and i guess hunters) should always be a top tier dps because we have no other option other than to damage

[keen dome]

rogue tank..

[valid marsh]

ESO rogue tank hear me out...

[short radish]

when rogues can tank i'll stop having this hot shit take

[valid marsh]

was fun

i loved it\

[keen dome]

deal

[short radish]

🤝

[keen dome]

do we also get poison toggle with this deal

[short radish]

yes

[bleak night]

no

[keen dome]

damn it

[alpine wraith]

we also need more mobs to have pockets

[teal coral]

meanwhile the monks are commenting on the others manatee art in the simcraft implementation

[alpine wraith]

so my pickpocked strike gets me money

[valid marsh]

ESOs rogue tank uses poison

and arguebly has a better shadow fantansy lmao

[keen dome]

this is why people code

[teal coral]

Manatee

[short radish]

tbh that's a good one

[keen dome]

10/10

[short radish]

i appreciate the manatee joke

[alpine wraith]

next time i get a router going i will put a capybara

if anyone asks the ai did it

[keen dome]

If you can inflict a bad joke on someone without warning then damn that's a solid

[valid marsh]

how is sub in pve i only pvp and have to watch pve stuff to know where buffs/nerfs are coming from

[short radish]

rip my live capybara reaction when i died

[keen dome]

Sub is good in pve

[valid marsh]

good

hopefully nerfed

[alpine wraith]

nani

a traitor

[teal coral]

but pve has... separate tuning?

[alpine wraith]

to the gallows

[teal coral]

[vale pine]

My point is slightly diffrent

but let me try to explain

[valid marsh]

imagine if this was true

the world would heal

[vale pine]

basically, a glass cannon class is always limited in defensives

so you have one or only a few ways to shortly avoid damage

[teal coral]

could say the same about pvp being removed

[valid marsh]

that would suck

but fair

[vale pine]

this however means, that you are helpless once your cooldowns run out

[teal coral]

I'm sure all remaining 8-12 of you guys will be devastated

[valid marsh]

Theres no MMO with a bigger pvp scene so doubtful

[vale pine]

to compensate for it, you typically have high burst or cc

[keen dome]

remove pvp and replace it with pet battles

I'm solved WoW

[valid marsh]

its also fine to have skilled defense cooldowns with long cooldowns

[vale pine]

but for wow, your burst/damage is simialrly tuned to others

[valid marsh]

for glass cannons

[teal coral]

I think that says more about pvp in mmo's than it does about the quality of wow's pvp

[vale pine]

because you know, pve damage meters exist

[keen dome]

wow doesn't have huttball though

[valid marsh]

[vale pine]

so my point is, you would need to allow rogue to do noticable more in pve content to be exciting to play
But you kinda can't because you don't want to have diffrent spell balance in instanced content and open world

[teal coral]

"no mmo with a bigger pvp scene" is like saying I'm the most intelligent guy in my house

my cats are not competing I'm afraid

[vale pine]

pvp focused mmos fail

[keen dome]

Pet battle pvp -> WoW pvp

[valid marsh]

not trying to rude, but not a worthy arguement just back and forth

[vale pine]

you saw it many times

[teal coral]

yeah pvp focused mmos fail because the intersection of pvp players and mmo players

is like

really small

[valid marsh]

Its definetly not easy

in any mmo

[keen dome]

Everyone thinks they'll be the big hero special pvp man but they're actually just the fodder

[vale pine]

think its mostly because things like world pvp

rely heavily on engagement from communities to work well

[valid marsh]

world pvp is just 400 alliance grouping up to kill a questing horde

[vale pine]

you see it in wow

[valid marsh]

[vale pine]

how well that works

when world pvp is typically

[keen dome]

world pvp is inflicting tedium upon other people

[vale pine]

a raid group of alliance players camping world quests

[keen dome]

there's no reward. You are just making their game experience less fun

[vale pine]

doing so might create a pvp scenario

where people defend

[valid marsh]

Well qued instance pvp is where everyone is anyways

for good reason

[vale pine]

but the engagement of such thigs is just very short lifed

[bleak night]

me playing holy priest in wpvp

[keen dome]

haha

[vale pine]

who has fun ganking helpless enemies

apperently, thats the appeal of pvp

[valid marsh]

a rogue player

[teal coral]

it's really prohibitive to get into pvp on top of it idk, like you load into league of legends, you get your tutorial, you go just play. In an mmo you're expected to also play the game outside of pvp to be able to pvp, and then you queue and get absolutely fucking destroyed

it's kinda whack

[valid marsh]

because its a true expression of skill

[bleak night]

pvp needs the template system gw2 has

[valid marsh]

end game content

[vale pine]

league has top tier visual design too

[valid marsh]

meant for people who want to use their mass knowledge to try something different

[vale pine]

you kow whats going on all the time

in wow

[valid marsh]

okay that was cringe ignore what i said lmao

worded WAY wrong

[vale pine]

you need to get addons or experienced players to often even know what you did wrong or why you died

[keen dome]

I like training grounds because I can fight the computer and win

[bleak night]

real

[alpine wraith]

pvp also has the vs other classes knowledge

[valid marsh]

horde will find a way to lose this

[keen dome]

except when the computer wins

[bleak night]

they nerfed the honor from training grounds though

[keen dome]

Which has happened twice to me on battle for gilneas lol

[bleak night]

rip my pvp transmog farm

[vale pine]

think the knowlage stuff applies to anything thats out for longer

[valid marsh]

buy pot, still around 400 with it

[alpine wraith]

i mean pvp also gets changes to talents all the time

like if you didnt play for a while you would think sub still has the shadow kidnap

[valid marsh]

well this is determined by pve

for good reason of course

not gonna deny that

[vale pine]

PvP mainly exists because it was the esport part of the game early

I think most players who look into a pvp experience, choose other games than wow

[valid marsh]

the last data for it was in tww season 2 where there was 66k NA active pvpers alone so not even counting EU

even if that number is off by 10k or so thats more than most most triple A games get on steam lmao

enough about pvp though sorry for invading channel just wanted to see where sub was for pve so i can see what to expect tuning wise

[vale pine]

wow has a player count in the millions

but you are correct

we can only look at some data points like participation in ranked pvp

to have a rough idea just how many players engage

[karmic harbor]

is there a macro thatll cast coup instead of bp if its up

[rigid torrent]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

yes

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[karmic harbor]

huge ty

[near charm]

How was made the tier list of trinket on wowhead ?

because when I compare the tier list and the sim from bloodmallet

I see the darkmoon trinket being extremly strong

[alpine wraith]

bloodmallet is a bit krangled rn

it will fix itself eventually

[vale pine]

bloodmallet uses an outdated profile

it uses level 80 instead of level 90

so it shows very diffrent results

[tribal blade]

whenever you see info from other sites vs from what the theorycrafters themselves recommend, always choose the latter

[bleak night]

unless the other site has higher io

[keen dome]

yeah but do they have higher posts

Finally had a chest drop 🙏

goodbye 170 chest, hello 240

[eager yoke]

trickster or deathstalker?

[agile kernel]

trick

[torn tide]

what a god, man must be high godly ilvl now

[young harness]

is uh dk really simming 30k dps over sub atm lol

[eager yoke]

so in aoe, after you use secret tech and coup de grace eviscerate, you just build with shuriken storm and spend with black powder?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[keen dome]

only 241, no point sending crests yet

[torn tide]

speaking of that, when should we send veteran/champion crests btw?

[keen dome]

I'm gonna send mine once I've done M0 and normal raid in week 1, since that'll help me pug into heroic easier

[alpine wraith]

it depends on what you can do on the reset day for hc week

[keen dome]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

if you can do the pvp shuffle things and m0 again before raid or not

[keen dome]

Loot rng is gonna dictate a ton and your goals.

[alpine wraith]

if you cant do them just craft 2x veteran on pieces you have low ilvl

and send all adventurer you have left

[keen dome]

if you are pugging heroic week 1, my personal experience is you wanna save as much as you can until that point, and do everything else before it. Because higher ilevel = easier invite to the good groups.

Can't really talk about any other approaches to raiding 'cos I puglord it

[alpine wraith]

i still have to see if the pvp gear works the same as last expansion

[keen dome]

Which way?

[limpid sage]

If it’s upgradable maybe

I’ve wondered about that anyway

Honor gear is flat 217 ilvl

[keen dome]

Oh, i imagine Conq will be probably champ? I dunno

[bleak night]

the pvp quest everyone got baited by does specify the item is 1/6 hero track

so i'd assume conq gear can be upgraded

i have been known to assume incorrectly though

[alpine wraith]

no what you do is you craft with the epic crest thingies

there is a seasonal quest that gives 9 by winning an epic bg

so you get 2 items of champion ilvl gear

depending on slot

[bleak night]

ye

people crafting necks and shit with that

[alpine wraith]

neck you can just buy the conquest one

[fiery fog]

neck is from rep

why would you craft there

[alpine wraith]

neck or ring or wrists

[bleak night]

im talking about in the past

thats what people did

[alpine wraith]

you would craft boots or belt likely yea