subtlety

[limpid sage]

Ahh that would explain it ye

[warm marlin]

like if u add it up and compare its about what you expect

when the clone crits it can do more overall damage than the entire rest of the coup if the coup hits were a bit unlucky with crits

[cinder surge]

do we used improved shuriken storm in ST?

[limpid sage]

Wtf it’d deal 25.5k without a crit?

Isn’t that basically the same as the non shadow clone version

[warm marlin]

shadow damage amps and armor and stuff

clones do about 80% of a regular hit

#subtlety message

[swift tinsel]

iirc forcing coup apex is neutral overall but better prio damage

[warm marlin]

in the above image, 6.3k base + 2.85k base + 6.5k base + 2.8k base + 12.5k base + 5.5k base = 36.45k base damage from the coup (not gonna try to calculate crit modifiers)
clone does 25.5k base. about 70% exactly

[swift tinsel]

#subtlety message

[kind fern]

and no m0 dagger drops, 😭

[lilac stag]

that’s why you just craft one.

[kind fern]

should, buttttt theres one more week

[eager quartz]

How do you guys feel like rogue is doing so far this expansion?

[kind fern]

my personal experience for a first time sub, been top overall except for lock and mage.

[lilac stag]

like rogue, and dps in a m0 is irrelevant

[sullen hare]

More purple than expected

[idle aurora]

I can tell you I was going to main assassination. Which was ok but felt overly starved for my liking even though I prefer dots and bleeds but am enjoying rogue more than most classes right now. So it’s doing as much as you like the playstyle right now :E

Sub seems really fun atm. And I thought I’d hate it.

Even tuning right now is irrelevant until race to word first is over

[dense geode]

it will always feel more starved at the start of an xpac

since stats are low

[radiant swift]

did u get one already?

[lilac stag]

Yes. Myself and Bingus said we ride!

[radiant swift]

did u manage to sim them properly? wants me to duo craft daggers for some reason

instead of dagger + belt for instance

[lilac stag]

what am I going to sim with veteran gear an 1 craft available?

I swear people overcomplicate just crafting weapon first.

[radiant swift]

well

not untrue

[swift tinsel]

the dagger/belt combo is within the context of that gear setup

from whatever list you saw

[radiant swift]

yeah i know

[lilac stag]

Watch you first vault have 6 belts.

[swift tinsel]

the curse

[radiant swift]

it was more bcs one of them was oh

[lilac stag]

pants would never fall down

[radiant swift]

which seamed odd

[eager quartz]

[lilac stag]

you do understand what the difference is between “bis at max level gear” and “biggest upgrade while gearing” is hopefully.

[warm marlin]

unclick it from the offhand slot

[radiant swift]

obv

[lilac stag]

obv not if you think offhand is weird

[warm marlin]

or set it so you have a normal amount of sparks, shouldn't let you overcraft

[radiant swift]

it is sinxe its regarded one of the last thing u want to upgrade

[lilac stag]

[radiant swift]

isnt offhand dmg irelevant in comparsiom to other pieces?

[lilac stag]

weapon is literally the first thing you craft. Even if you get a weapon that OH is still lifeless a bigger upgrade than wrists cloak and even to a belt craft for a second spark.

[radiant swift]

i see

[lilac stag]

and you’re using it in your MH until a mythic fully upgraded drops

Holy moly

[radiant swift]

mybe it wasnr clear

[lilac stag]

I hate bis lists

!bis

[radiant swift]

it was two daggers instead of dafger + smth else

there have been numerous talks how u would rather upgrade somenthing else than the oh dagger no?

[lilac stag]

how are you crafting two spark items today?

[radiant swift]

wdym

we have 2 sparks

[lilac stag]

You need 2 per craft

4 for 2H

[grave mango]

Yeah stuff used to cost 1 spark, now cost 2

[warm marlin]

weird change btw

[radiant swift]

oh

[warm marlin]

ig they really felt strongly about valorstone spark combining

[lilac stag]

They removed valor stones and so now you don’t combine anything

[warm marlin]

and didnt want to make that cost gold too

[radiant swift]

not that it matters to the convo but i actualy didnt know that

[lilac stag]

and you get a spark each week. Yay progression good feels

[warm marlin]

1 spark = 1 item was much simpler

[radiant swift]

well that makes it easier

[warm marlin]

a bit of a curious change

[lilac stag]

It 100% matters if you think you’re getting 2 crafts

[radiant swift]

yeah

[lilac stag]

This takes away, do we get a spark this week or not question

[radiant swift]

not untrue

[lilac stag]

now dumb dumbs just need to remember if they spent their spark or not.

which should be obv

[alpine wraith]

dont worry people will forget as always

[lilac stag]

ofc they will. Then we laugh.

[leaden thorn]

sup guys ? is sub best for m+ rn ?

[tulip light]

just ran a sim and it didnt show up under buffs but maybe im missing something

[swift tinsel]

does the spark counter in your character/currency pane say 1/1 even though its 2/2

[lilac stag]

What m+?

[leaden thorn]

huh?

[lilac stag]

there’s no m+.

[leaden thorn]

oh boi

[swift tinsel]

or do your guys' say 2/2

[leaden thorn]

ok mate nvm

[lilac stag]

So nothing is bis

[leaden thorn]

people played this through and through on beta so

yea there "IS" m+ tests

[swift tinsel]

sub was quite good on beta m+

[lilac stag]

All 3 specs are fine on beta.

[swift tinsel]

but we'll see where things settle after mondo tuning on the 17th

and the following weeks

[lilac stag]

We have no utility

We won’t be meta

Unless overtuned

check back later

[lilac stag]

I spent mine and still 1/1

[leaden thorn]

are you chilling with the weapon craft in case tuning favours outlaw

or just send dagger

?

[swift tinsel]

okay wasn't sure if it was some bug lmao

[lilac stag]

Outlaw hahahahahahahaha

[swift tinsel]

so it counts having both sparks as one spark

lmao

certainly won't cause any confusion

[jaunty heath]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

big chilling

[swift tinsel]

the QA is so good

like

top tier

[tranquil blaze]

i think it's so they don't run into the same issue that happened in tww where some people were able to obtain an extra half spark

i think it was s2 iirc

[swift tinsel]

idk, you still need 2x sparks to craft

[warm marlin]

didnt that happen like every season

[swift tinsel]

which is numerically the same as 2x halves

[tranquil blaze]

not sure i just vividly remembering it happening once

[lilac stag]

try to put a delve curio in outside of delve and see what happens

[warm marlin]

and ya it could still happen just with a full spark

[swift tinsel]

lol mine turned to Brann so many times

[lilac stag]

yup

[swift tinsel]

also was doing that shadowguard delve mob farm thing and she kept beelining into the knockback fences even though there were no mobs around

so idk if she thinks its an enemy or what lol

but she does interesting things

also for the love of fuck get rid of the -10,000,000 threat modifier on dance

we have tricks

we don't need an omega shenron threat dump

[shrewd reef]

which neck have you picked from the Amani Quest?

[swift tinsel]

I'm probs getting the haste one

bc I have lower haste

[warm marlin]

the one that doesnt have vers

[shrewd reef]

make sense, thanks

[astral axle]

QA is short for Quite Ass

[hazy breach]

Oh how the tables have turned since tww

[warm marlin]

[plush roost]

I miss her...

[astral axle]

Vers stacking was so cozy

[plush roost]

This haste hussy aint it

[warm marlin]

I do think it's funny just how good mastery is in aoe

[swift tinsel]

what, you guys aren't at 10% vers

[warm marlin]

all our secondaries are so much better than tww with how down bad vers is, and then in aoe mastery just blows them all away

[vale pine]

agree

[swift tinsel]

I think a third of my gear pieces rn are haste/vers lol

6 actually

yeesh

[hollow spear]

I was such a vers fiend

Rip

Kinda funny how people come in here to ask if sub will get nerfed

[swift tinsel]

bc they're blasting m0 without a care in the world

I love it

lol

[hollow spear]

Then I watch hopeful on arcane completely blast exile out of the water

[lilac stag]

if that trinket is implemented (correctly) it's total ass for us lol

[swift tinsel]

which trinket

[lilac stag]

the 246

renown

[swift tinsel]

ah

I have that and the miasara one and picking up the lil spirit things is kinda aids

[tulip light]

whenever i run a sim it just doesnt show any buff related whatsoever. would there be another way to check if its implemented at all?

[swift tinsel]

but its a mastery battery so it'll do for now

do you have buffs selected?

or what do you mean any buff

the trinket?

crucible straight up throws an error

[tulip light]

yeah the trinket should show someting like voidlust in buffs no?

[warm marlin]

it works

it's not sure if the extra effects from the protocol console apply in instances

i doubt those work

but the baseline voidlust 200 crit effect is in sims

[lilac stag]

darkmoon coupled with embelishment was simming higher lol

[tulip light]

same for me if we assume its implemented somwhat correctly it sims worse than pmuch any other trinket

Sapling of the Dawnroot sims surpisingly high

[lilac stag]

Haste plus agility proc should not be surprising

[chrome palm]

Does the renown item sim correctly now?

[swift tinsel]

Sapling won't be available in s1 tho

[chrome palm]

The proc seems pretty lackluster

[lilac stag]

Get a high WQ one

[swift tinsel]

its a dungeon drop

[lilac stag]

I got it from a WQ

[swift tinsel]

this one?

there's a diff one that's from WQ's

[tulip light]

i have this one

[lilac stag]

Oh the WQ is haste + agil very nice. Very procy

[swift tinsel]

yeah I saw that one and was thinking about getting it but was like 224 for me

[tulip light]

you mean the paw i guess

[Withered Saptor's Paw]

flat haste + agi procc

[fleet acorn]

What’s the max lvl delve we can do until season release ? 7?

[swift tinsel]

yeah 7

[lilac stag]

It upgrades to 237 if you have a second trinket

For 50g lol

[swift tinsel]

which are still quite easy at ~220-230

I've got a vet track and champ track trinket but I might still grab it anyways if its still up when I get home

we're doing the last 4 0's this evening and I'm hoping for a better trinket tho

and thorn dagger from bv since mine are butt

probs just gonna craft one later tho

idk

might make my bs dagger spec so I can make my own shit lol

[lilac stag]

if you’re on Malganis I can make for free

[swift tinsel]

Malfurion for me

[lilac stag]

Damn. Wrong Mal

[swift tinsel]

was the first Chicago server I landed on lol

[plush roost]

malganis

[lilac stag]

Let me know when you want your daggie crafted

I’ll start supplying the NA sub rogues.

[plush roost]

? U mean my fist weapon?

:^)

[lilac stag]

brainwashed by Guy eh?

[plush roost]

Nah theres hidden tech

Sandbagging it rn tho

[lilac stag]

Im scared.

[plush roost]

The tech is simple

You just

1. Get
2. Lucky

Booooom

Will 4buff into existence

:^))

[lilac stag]

I think I’ve seen a vault weapon 2 times in 5 years

[icy rain]

is sub easier to play now than the last expansion?

[tidal marsh]

[plush roost]

Lil bit ye

[tidal marsh]

Just a tiny bit

[lilac stag]

it should be, but that depends on you

[icy rain]

still extremely hard for a new/casual player?

[lilac stag]

it’s still going to melt some people

the just do Dps not worrying about min max is pretty straight forward

[icy rain]

and in pvp?

[lilac stag]

people pvp?

[loud wharf]

Put it this way, I was brain dead when it came to Sub last xpac. I also did not try very hard to learn it.

This Xpac sub is pretty damn easy

[loud wharf]

Sub was cranking in pvp in pre-patch

But I suck at pvp so

[lean sigil]

Anyone sim good single 5 min? I’m embaraced at 34k 232 ppl in guild popping almost 60k sims in raidbots channel

[shrewd lantern]

Never was

[plush roost]

43k is what im at but no uppies spent

[shrewd lantern]

it had a higher learning curve than the drool specs

[sly shore]

how much of an increase is the SS to proc ancient arts bs

[cosmic sparrow]

Unbuffed?

[icy rain]

i was speaking for pvp, mb

[alpine wraith]

around 1.5% in st

dimiinishing until 3 targets

[lilac stag]

Get your outlaw sim out of here.

[plush roost]

Patchwerk 5m all rsidbuffs consumes

[plush roost]

Nah i just have haste breakpoint

[shrewd lantern]

how does that change the statement

[lilac stag]

#pvp better help. We’re all pixel dragon slayers.

[shrewd lantern]

People act like the pvp difference isnt just

tossing in cheapshots

[sly shore]

someone got haste pic

[shrewd lantern]

when the guy isnt stunned

[cosmic sparrow]

Gotta sim unbuffed. You can't realistically recreate full raid buffs on a target dummy Everytime.

[lilac stag]

I’m tempted to spend money on enchants. Also can’t be arsed. Hahah

[icy rain]

in pvp was always considered the hardest class in every guide

[shrewd lantern]

what

[icy rain]

tyvm!

[shrewd lantern]

mage is harder

skill ceiling of mage is high as disgusting as that class is

[plush roost]

Ye target dummy is like 34k

[cosmic sparrow]

@plush roost ty

[plush roost]

Sub is just undertuned and requires windfury what can u do

[shrewd lantern]

We just in raid for atrophic

[sly shore]

!haste

[shrewd lantern]

or benchboys

[swift tinsel]

oof 26k no buffs

[cosmic sparrow]

Feels like we got overly nerfed.

[sly shore]

@vale pine where haste pic

the breakpoint one

[shrewd lantern]

Imagine thinking preseason balance

matters

rather be under than overpowered pre season

[alpine wraith]

what numbers do you want?

[cosmic sparrow]

Remember to sandbag pre tuning so we get buffed.

[alpine wraith]

always bag

everyone remember to go DS first week

[lilac stag]

Just play outlaw and get them nerfed.

[alpine wraith]

that will only make them buff assa 3 times

we need at least 1 buff

[lilac stag]

BP it is

[alpine wraith]

yea buff bp more

so the secret 170% mastery build uses it in st

[junior ether]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[shrewd lantern]

What do you do with leveling once you finish campaign

i forget

[swift tinsel]

I just did some side quests towards renown

[shrewd lantern]

Also annoyed me how the shaman npc wouldnt give you windfury

[lilac stag]

just like raid

Oh ffs press skyfury already

So we can pull

[shrewd lantern]

Do people not spam their buff hotkey

waiting on pull

out of boredom

[lean sigil]

Lets hope we get some buffs or we all get benched🤣 there is 20k diff same ilvl from alot of other classes

[fallen quiver]

hey guys sorry if thats a stupid qst or something but how can i only keep my offensive cooldowns on the first row, without the whole thing shrinking ? cause right now when i do the whole bar gets little af

I use Elvui and Bettercd tho

[junior ether]

by "default" u can use options what to show up there

no clue about modded stuff tho..

[fallen quiver]

pb is when i do that it shrinks 🙁

[swift tinsel]

can't you just resize your energy/cp

and not have it contingent on your auras

[fallen quiver]

I actually found it !

sry for the french

ty guys

[swift tinsel]

[lilac stag]

[frail kindle]

question, if heart of wind trinket(agi main stat + haste proc for 10 sec trinket) procs does it increase shadow dance duration if its already active? or only a new shadow dance

[obtuse orbit]

what are ppl doing about crafts this week? right into dagger or waiting for season to start?

[swift tinsel]

the buff has to be up before you hit dance to extend the duration

it snapshots

[jovial marten]

Usually right into dagger unless you are goated and going to get guaranteed two daggers in mythic raid

[frail kindle]

okay so same with lust then

[swift tinsel]

yea

[frail kindle]

guess it makes sense it would be really weird to gain a haste proc and then randomly have your dance extended

[chrome palm]

% buffs like lust do not apply to deepening shadows

[frail kindle]

ohhh

thats lit

[chrome palm]

The “before dance” rule also applies to the haste on use trinket, so you can’t have them macrod last I checked

[frail kindle]

ok, u mean the 1:30 haste buff trinket?

[maiden oar]

just in case they 15% buff outlaw right before the season as an apology im waiting a bit

dont need it for m0s

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I’m waiting til after first vault for crafting

[maiden oar]

i probably want it if theres a funny boss on mythic week

that is somewhat hard to kill

and i probably want the basic champ version for delve boss hof (big deal)

[maiden oar]

3 button spec

we are BACK

[viscid ocean]

are we able to get 2 sparks this week for weapon?

[tulip light]

yes

[stable plume]

Wait so if I macro /use haste trinket then /cast shadow dance, the shadow dance won’t snapshot the increased haste?

[frail bone]

^

or rather why would it be sugggested at all in the pins of sub faq channel

[warm marlin]

it will not because there is a very slight delay on the game recognizing you have the haste to increase dance duration

[blissful gale]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Auto Tricks on tank Addon - TankMD

[arctic scroll]

guys guys guys real shit question time

do we jsut craft our two trinkets off the start ?

[vale pine]

If you want to craft, weapon is a good first craft

[lucid frost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[frail bone]

#showtooltip Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion(obv replace with new pot)
/cast Ancestral Call
/cast Shadow Blades

Is this practical anymore, or does apply if you don't have haste trinkets?

[crimson wind]

hows sub looking/feeling so far lads

[plush roost]

Im not up to date on the flag trinket, does it need to land on ground? Is it instant? .1 seconds? .5?

They kept messing with it on ze beta

[lilac stag]

It’s m0. Doesn’t matter.

have fun and enjoy or hate it and play something else

[crimson wind]

just trying to get a feel for what spec i want to run, im late to the party

[warm marlin]

idk Eleem said just press it manually and it’s fine

maybe just not macroing ok

[swift tinsel]

Ellesmere's UI might be worth it for Party Mode alone

ngl

[lilac stag]

That’s entirely a you thing

[swift tinsel]

this is insanely nice to use

also 2.5mb useage

[crimson wind]

major aura moment from scath, god that guys cool

[lilac stag]

I find it fun. You may hate it. Test all three if you’re playing rogue.

sorry you need someone to tell you what’s fun for you.

[sly shore]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

Which char sheet addon are you using?

[crimson wind]

its not about fun, they are all fun to me. ive played all 3, just asked to get a quick vibe check from the comm.

you are too cool to understand i feel, all good scath!

[sly shore]

enhanceQoL I think

[lilac stag]

Vibe on content that doesn’t matter.

[sly shore]

and BetterCharacterPanel

[crimson wind]

chills bro, chills

[lilac stag]

for the 3rd time. I find it fun

https://tenor.com/view/andrew-cooper-andrew-dance-cooper-dance-feeling-dance-dance-gif-4719076827571292026

[plush roost]

Holy he got juices

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-chill-apt-apt-apt-apt-gif-16505586974465544801

[lilac stag]

More juices if he weapon crafted

[sly shore]

that's likely what I'll do

[lilac stag]

[hollow spear]

Pretty good stats

Playing it close to the edge with the haste

[alpine wraith]

can macro it to blades but need to have it separate from dance

server tick needs to happen

so at least 0.03

[night fjord]

can anyone craft?

[alpine wraith]

you need someone on your server

so just use trade chat

[brisk raptor]

Can eviscerate and coup be macro together?

[hazy breach]

Coup is eviscerate

Theyre the same button by default

[mighty citrus]

there is nothing wrong to craft a 252 dagger now correct? i just recraft with higher ilvl, once i get the crests. also, can i put already the darkmoon thingy onto it?

[brisk raptor]

lol Jesus

It’s been a min since I’ve been on rogue. I can’t believe I just asked that ha. Thanks eleem

[obtuse relic]

Only a 1 percent loss ll honestly just ignore and only shadow strike to build lol

[true citrus]

Elusivness over cheat death in dungeon content?

[lilac stag]

ye

[lilac stag]

charge your phone

[obtuse relic]

True lol

[brisk raptor]

Is it worth trying to press diff buttons during dance to take advantage of macab at all? Also, is it worth shuriken storm first global when you have the 100% crit buff in single target?

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

Danse isn’t worth it.

[obtuse relic]

No

[obtuse relic]

Is this a close choice or not close ik icey veins takes cheat death

40 percent damage reduction you can have at almost 100 percent uptime feels op af lol

[grand galleon]

guess I can stop pumping haste

[lilac stag]

You rarely have 1 shots in keys where’s you can use elusiveness on so many things

[hazy breach]

Its not 40% damage reduction

[obtuse relic]

Same with wowhead both have cheat death too lol

[hazy breach]

Its 20% if feint does not already work

For most people cheat is gonna be better

[obtuse relic]

Oh my bad

Idk why I said 40

[obtuse relic]

How so

[lilac stag]

Most people don’t press feint

[hazy breach]

Because not dying when you accidently stand in shit is insanely good

[bleak night]

cheat is better for me bc im a human being and make mistakes

[hazy breach]

Better than just taking a bit less damage

[bleak night]

[true citrus]

Yeah cheat seems bait in dungeon content

[lilac stag]

Warrior arc soon?

[obtuse relic]

Makes evasion a 20 percent reduction as well

[bleak night]

i love how silly furys cheat death is

[obtuse relic]

That’s fair lol

Isn’t it rouges main defensive tho??

How do they survive in keys lol

[hazy breach]

They dont do levels where it matters

[lilac stag]

like asking a warrior to use spell reflect

[true citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/neighborhood-spiderman-yuh-everybody-gets-only-one-peter-griffin-family-guy-gif-16522409

[bleak night]

you can get away with not pressing a single defensive in the majority of keys anyone does

[lilac stag]

It just doesn’t happen

[bleak night]

but also feint just already works on most scary stuff anyway

its only dungeons with like big st dots where the elusiveness dr would work

which tbf is a lot now

with the trend of two dispels and you dispel one/heal the other

[plush roost]

Ye but u auto dispel rogue

[bleak night]

ye

[plush roost]

Its weakness is quite literally st rot dam

[bleak night]

i'd hope so anyway

[plush roost]

Uldaman 3rd boss...

Never forget

[bleak night]

[plush roost]

The ultimate fk rogue encounter

At least outlaw had evasion

[viscid ocean]

why we want hunt instead of voidd ?

[obtuse relic]

So I guess I’ll just use cheat death

Potion plus feint for aoe is pretty much enough for anything at 14 or lower I assume

[tribal vortex]

it's a good habit to take elusiveness, it forces you to play the game

You learn to not stand into shit (I still do)

[viscid ocean]

jesus christ , people want like 150k tg for r5 dagger >_>

[shrewd lantern]

or you could just wait

since no relevant content

[lilac stag]

Concentration is expensive

[swift tinsel]

yeah they're probs making one, maybe two daggers per couple days

[short radish]

average adhd take

[lilac stag]

3-4 per week depending what they spec’d

I was doing rank 4 for free or paying if it was a skill up

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/you-stay-focused-mr-miyagi-the-karate-kid3-dont-lose-focus-keep-it-together-gif-24815237

I sadly missed the EA skill hack

You could use unlimited treatises

[steep raven]

idk if it's a known bug, but if you have backstab(non-stealth bar) and shadowstrike(stealth bar) on the same button and you press shadow dance while under subterfuge, your bar goes back to "non-stealth" bar while you're under shadow dance

[shrewd lantern]

But i need to roll people in my m0s now.

👶

[lilac stag]

Just craft a rank 4

[shrewd lantern]

rather just afk till season start

[alpine wraith]

i have an alt with BS

you can also do that

[swift tinsel]

ye that's my plan

[flint parrot]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wintry elm]

1 question the trinkets sims on bloodmallet are acurated?

[short radish]

define: accurate

[wintry elm]

this is correct is what i want to say

sorry for broken english xD

[silent geode]

friends I have a simple question: does puzzlebox break stealth?

[golden forge]

i dont know 100% but I'm 98% sure it does

[silent geode]

hated using it on my hunter back in df, noty lookign forward to it again but oh well

[short radish]

they are accurate enough for the everyday gamer but i'd use the trinket sims on the fuu spreadsheet for rogue

[golden forge]

well I don't think we have to use puzzlebox

its a strong trinket, but not BIS i believe

[wintry elm]

okay ty

[hallow matrix]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

those trinket sims aren't out yet

but t hey will be sometime soon.jpg

probably

[shadow wren]

is the mythic build best for open world stuff

[maiden oar]

all sub builds use the same talents almost

but yea it probably is

maybe top of the class tree can change a touch but not a big deal

[shadow wren]

ah okay, i usually play assa but the damage feels pretty low right now

wanted to give sub a shot

[maiden oar]

could be scaling or something idk

[stuck arrow]

I think you can be beefier then the M+ build for running around open world, tbh. Notably I'd switch most of the option talents; grab gouge, blackjack, numbing poison, elusiveness.

[torpid echo]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pJnbDHSvRrZ2ie9Cj9P5st

any idea why Sapling of the Dawnroot is being picked over any other 230 trinket? is it not siming properly or hidden op? xD

[bleak night]

damage procs kinda strong early on

i wouldnt say its hidden op though, its just not in s1 rotation so nobody cares to look at it

[cedar eagle]

do we play around Silent Storm at all

[alpine wraith]

not really

[tropic pier]

im not even sure which trinkets are implemented and which are not at this point

[cedar eagle]

and i was looking but im a little slow today, what is the target count to swap between shuriken/BP and SS/Evis

[plush roost]

1-3 strike in dance, 2+ out of dance storm. Bp at 2+ target always. Coup when avail ofc

[cedar eagle]

damn BP is actually good to hit again that feels bueno, i havent played Sub much in a while i always fall back to Assa lol, Sub feels pretty fluid currently

[plush roost]

Nimble only works with melees coup and unseen now

So no point in evis in 2 target

[potent heath]

mhhhhh

mastery/versa or crit/haste

[pulsar hemlock]

Does the 1% haste racial for nelf count towards our 18% goal?

[potent heath]

nice question

[cedar eagle]

long as the haste number says 18% however you get there you are golden

[tidal marsh]

POLYVALENCE

[pulsar hemlock]

Thats what I thought, thank you

[potent heath]

cchhh versality*

[hazy breach]

I genuinely have no idea how it ends up with these trinkets as the best. In all my sims the haste on-use is always the best by a fair bit

Really weird

[alpine wraith]

it is trying to use a card that is capped at 220 at max mythic ilvl lul

[ember jay]

guys can we safely craft our main hand this week ?

[hazy breach]

Nah its using the default profile at 289

[torpid echo]

ty @bleak night and @tropic pier

[tidal marsh]

It's BIS in off-hand for all 3 specs AFAIK so should be pretty safe

[brave moth]

Am I supposed to run out of energy during AoE ? I have 11% haste, kinda low but still

[plush roost]

Ye

[chrome palm]

[hollow wigeon]

Should I wait to craft 1h for my rogu or wait

[tribal blade]

hey guys i figured out something really cool

if you're not wearing cloth legs on your splits rogue

you do way more dmg

[alpine wing]

yo, i'm crafting this Dagger, anyone knows what are the best optionals to add to it?

mastery + haste? any ornament or smt

[swift tinsel]

haste/mastery safe bet

or crit/haste

[brisk onyx]

Idk but I tent to haste mastery

[stuck arrow]

Crit haste better if you want to play outlaw or Sin at some point.

Haste mastery better for sub though.

[swift tinsel]

Darkmoon Hunt for embellishment

[steep raven]

!addons

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Bubbling wax:

• Can be pickpocketed from kobolds in e.g. The Ringing Deeps. (needs The Final Candle questline completed.)
• Only use it on one weapon. (does not stack)

[torpid echo]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7wS36pnPrFqE35MhGwscM9

this is not alright, it's simming higher than the champion track trinket 😂 goated 214 trinket?
Do I trust the sim or just replace it?

[tribal blade]

not sure why but that trink doesn't sim well

[torpid echo]

I mean none is siming well tbh, if you look at the other simed trinkets the champion track one is also worse than the drum trinket Drum of Renewed Bonds as well

might be cuz they are leveling trinkets and no one really looked into them

[frank narwhal]

Reading about Sub rotation and optimizations and seeing that it’s optimal to use shadowstrike at max (or high) cp to proc ancient arts.

Do people seriously find that smooth and enjoyable gameplay, or is the general concensus that it’s a clunky but necessary optimization atm?

Imo one of the worst things about specs is if you have to play in a way that makes you feel like you’re «wasting» resources

I know its only during dance and 1-3 targets, but still

[warm marlin]

Apex optimization feels great, spec already lost so much nuance and unintuitive gameplay

Also one of the only things that requires a modicum of paying attention to your buffs and procs

and not just build spend spend build spend spend

[frank narwhal]

It just seems to me they made TWW shadowcraft that was smooth as hell, into a clunky version where you wanna use a builder at max cp, which just feels incredibly counterintuitive

[chrome palm]

I personally do not like the optimization but it is preferable to not having it because the spec is otherwise completely shallow

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah without it the spec is kind of

doing fuckall

[keen plaza]

What % dmg increase is this optimization anyway

[frank narwhal]

I mean sure having stuff to let you optimize with instead of just having a classic wow rotation is better than nothing, but the current way just seems insanely dumb to me

[shrewd lantern]

not much else to do

the spec doesnt require much thought elsewhere

[warm marlin]

the apex refund also feels really good knowing that finisher is gonna do big damage with the clone included

which kind of makes non apex finishers feel weak

they feel like shit to cast ngl

[tropic pier]

i just dont like not having the weakaura play a sound when i get cp refund anymore

[torpid echo]

ofc they do, you are essencially sacrificing an extra finisher to bump all in a apex finisher

[frank narwhal]

Yeah this doesn’t make me wanna come back to wow, atleast not Sub. First the rotation is a shell of what it once was, and on top of that the optimization you can do is a counterintuitive one. Pass

[tropic pier]

how much gain is the ancient arts optimization

[warm marlin]

1.5%

[chrome palm]

One reason I dislike it is because you basically have to react to a proc which could happen at literally any time while the old shadowcraft gave you a gcd to react to it

[tropic pier]

yeah sub does now feel a bit outlawy

in terms of rotation speed during dance

[warm marlin]

that could also be why I like it

[shrewd lantern]

not as bad as df s2 sub

[chrome palm]

The default ui is really bad at showing this though

[tropic pier]

i played s2 df sub it was super chill i think

[chrome palm]

You’re looking at a single digit changing

[shrewd lantern]

it was more outlawy

since you literally just built and spent

without any real thought

[tropic pier]

thats not outlaw though

[warm marlin]

kinda ye

[tropic pier]

outlaw is or used to be speedy proc reactions

[shrewd lantern]

crackshot didnt exist until df s3

[warm marlin]

it's honestly a bit hard changing your thinking between dance/blades too

[shrewd lantern]

proc reaction came with crackshot

[warm marlin]

or remembering that at 0cp, you'll only get apex proc at 10 sht outside blades

[tropic pier]

even in s1/s2 dragonflight you did some with the ambush stealth talent etc

[shrewd lantern]

all that did was make ambush double hit sometimes

[chrome palm]

It seems pretty obvious that sht accounts for far too many combo points

[shrewd lantern]

and on occasion you had free ambushes yeah

[chrome palm]

Like outside of dance you can basically just pool sht until it fills your bar

[warm marlin]

it also feels like you have way less sht outside dance than you used to

[chrome palm]

And then backstab

[warm marlin]

and the energy cost of storm being higher is not cool

[shrewd lantern]

yeah feels like they didnt like that playstyle

of holding your hand down pants

between cds

[warm marlin]

well now you do it more

[chrome palm]

It’s more of that than ever imo

[warm marlin]

you dont proc sht ouside dance you so dont have energy ever

[chrome palm]

And outside of dance has no point now

[warm marlin]

if im 8 seconds out from sectec i feel like casting evis is a risk lmfao

[shrewd lantern]

yeah that part is

[warm marlin]

i might not get back to full cp before dance

[shrewd lantern]

[chrome palm]

If I don’t have like 4 sht in this situation I hold

Maybe skyfury helps here

[short radish]

yeah after running some m0s, my feelycraft says to just afk even if im capping energy

so i can force apex

[warm marlin]

im casting 4cp eviscerates just to dump cp ahead of time

before i get too deep

[shrewd lantern]

more time to flame the group

between dances

[short radish]

[warm marlin]

the humble 3cp black powder in st since dance is 9s out and you have coup ready and don't feel like building up and then delaying sectec

[vernal drum]

we now have to do one more SStrike when we have 3-4 stack, this is it ?

[warm marlin]

[shrewd lantern]

why do i feel like blizz changes it

[chrome palm]

Our generators aren’t even generators anymore

[shrewd lantern]

because the newer people wont understand

[chrome palm]

They are sht activators

[shrewd lantern]

how apex works

[short radish]

im embarassed to admit i acutally didn't realise how our apex worked with sectech until 2 days ago

[shrewd lantern]

wow players are notoriously bad at reading tooltips

[chrome palm]

You won’t believe this

[short radish]

i was just like why does the refund matter for damage?

[chrome palm]

It was because you had to react to a shadowcraft proc

[warm marlin]

im sorry team, i didn't know this is where the feint raid timeline screenshot would take us

[chrome palm]

Without the optimization, you don’t react to it since you’d know if you have one

Based on you using a builder

Whereas old shadowcraft you could get a finisher after any finisher

In cds oc

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah i do miss how calculated sub was

[chrome palm]

But now with the optimization

[shrewd lantern]

in s3

[chrome palm]

It’s way harder to react to than before

[warm marlin]

the butterfly effect..

[shrewd lantern]

That's one feint too many

[chrome palm]

I’m sorry is that old sub or new outlaw?

[warm marlin]

mfw my gunslinging pirate runs out of tasty tea and collapses on the floor tired

[chrome palm]

That gif of the British guy nearly choking on his food every bite is how outlaw feels 10% of the time

[ripe flame]

lore accurate gunslinger runs out of bullets 🥀

[warm marlin]

damn right it was 🔥

[chrome palm]

I heard guildies say “it seems like devourer does literally zero damage outside of its CDs” and I thought wtf that’s supposed to be me

Dh stole another thing yet again

[short radish]

[warm marlin]

our havoc guy has not been having fun in m0 on that spec

seems a bit miserable

pressing st filler on 20 targets to ramp into meta just for entire pack to die to sub burst

[chrome palm]

They aren’t built for this

[tribal blade]

the moment you decide to not send dance when a world mob has 15% hp left

and it takes an eternity to die

[chrome palm]

That shit is so embarrassing actually

And then you just hit it with kidney

To pretend you’re doing something

[warm marlin]

blind -> crimson vial -> stare

[short radish]

press kidney and go afk behind it?

[tribal blade]

yeah you either blow stuff up in 3 gcds or they live forever lol

i did some world pvp because my guildies were getting ganked

sub rogue feels fucking huge in pvp atm

[chrome palm]

I did some wpvp it is pretty nasty

[tribal blade]

yeah the control is still there

and you dance on a mofo and they drop dead

[short radish]

yeah im a bit tempted to dabble in pvp again

gotta embrace the fotm when its your turn again

[tribal blade]

it was fun!

[chrome palm]

They’re killing it before the season lol

It’s rogue man

[short radish]

true

i should know better

30% nerf to sectech in pvp inc?

[chrome palm]

Yeah I imagine

[short radish]

frostmages casting ice beam or w/e it is

thats fine though

all part of the complimentary 2.1k rating frost mages get

[chrome palm]

Ice beam

[tribal blade]

i just realized

frost mages have ice wall

ICE in the US

and the wall they're protecting

[short radish]

[hollow compass]

what are you guys simming at? im 242 ilvl and only simming 41k

meanwhile my lock counterparts are simming 60k lol

[warm marlin]

if you havent already make sure you have midnight consumables selected

it will default to tww ones

[plush roost]

Tuning is as we say wack af

[spiral needle]

demo is apparantly busted but also a lottery atm

too early to panic though

[plush roost]

Also what happened to tanking bro

[hollow compass]

i tank keys but i raid on rogue

[warm marlin]

im 238 and sim like 49k or smth

[plush roost]

My G-woz routes....

[warm marlin]

have crafted weapon though

[plush roost]

Hehe

Im 226 after m0 swoop and all avail content

W

[hollow compass]

so for consumes i have to pick them manually i guess

instead of simc default

[warm marlin]

ye

[plush roost]

I thought defaults updated for midnight

[hollow compass]

are enchants a big dps up? i havent bought any

[plush roost]

Ystrday

[warm marlin]

good players get the good loot

what can i say

[hollow compass]

wait theres no way lights potential is better for us than recklessness

[warm marlin]

reckless is mega troll

[hollow compass]

oh wait they nerfed recklessness a lot

i remember now

[spiral needle]

m0s too easy to be sweating enchants

[chrome palm]

Gwoz you should tank m0s for my cloth group

[hollow compass]

sry i already tanked for two other groups on my tanks

for guild

[plush roost]

Send the picture

[chrome palm]

Fucked up

[hollow compass]

ok now im simming 47k

[chrome palm]

Shindig gave me one of these for raid testing salhadaar like “try this”, next thing I know I’m incapacitated in blades

[warm marlin]

[chrome palm]

That potion is the devil man

[warm marlin]

ya i would not use that thing personally

maybe if cloak worked

i would force it

[warm marlin]

you need to join stormrage discord soon

its gonna start heating up

[hollow compass]

my guild warlock is simming 70k at 225 ilvl 👍

[plush roost]

Send kink

Err link

But hey

I dont judge

[hollow compass]

damn these enchants are big

1.9% for main hand enchant alone

[rich canopy]

Where do we get the second spark from?

I'm 99% sure I've done everything on my Priest, but it only has one spark vs. my Rogue's 2

[chrome palm]

Weekly

The quest you get under the tent

In silver moon

[rich canopy]

I have that one, where did the second come from?

[junior ether]

quest near table

map where u pick storyline

[rich canopy]

Oh, I didn't do the campagin skip so I guess it wasn't showing up

[junior ether]

this gonna give u 2nd spark as reward

[sleek lake]

Balance is bad af

[grizzled bay]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mossy zinc]

ONLY use shadow dance if i have blades or tech up?

[lilac stag]

No

Considering blades is 90 seconds

You may want to reread the #subtlety-faq or !guides since I think something got missed.

[mossy zinc]

right it says use shadow dance if shadow blades or secret tech is ready

but only then?

like what if secre tech will come off cd in the dance window

[lilac stag]

sectech should be your first finisher (cast) to take advantace of forced induction

you play around sectech and then understand what you need for sblades window and that's about it

[brisk onyx]

What version simc do you guys use?

[warm marlin]

always latest

[brisk onyx]

Last night I tested Lasted and Nightly and there seems to be an unexplained difference. Nightly recommends using mastery gems and enchantments, while Lasted recommends using haste consistently.

[short radish]

is it fine to use for 2nd finisher?

should be right?

since its 2 supercharged cp

[brisk onyx]

My haste rating is already over 900, but Lasted is still telling me to keep choosing all gear, gems, and enchantments with haste. Idk what's wrong.

[lilac stag]

sure? idk if you consistently do it how disjointed shit gets

[warm marlin]

ehh

its not just sc

it gives unseen blades and shit ton of sht

[lilac stag]

Ye

[warm marlin]

so you wanna line that up with your 2nd supercharged point

ideally coup

[lilac stag]

in m0 I was just sending it first every time

usually got coup right after

[warm marlin]

and trickster wants to dance into finisher

so you never apex your first finisher with premed bug

another reason for sectec first

[lilac stag]

Once you hit ~680+ haste it’s pretty easy to have Sectech first. Was a bit of a slog with 200 haste. Haha

[young reef]

yo guys

i have a question

[lilac stag]

congrats!

[young reef]

im trying to get my combo points to show over my head on my character

[short radish]

ah yeah true i forget about flawless form

[young reef]

like before

i turned on personal resource display in the settings, but it looks weird and i cant move it

does anyone have any ideas of how to do this

[chrome palm]

personal resource display is kinda buggy i would suggest using a dedicated resource bar addon

[lilac stag]

download a resource bar addon like wangbar

[young reef]

i thought that was built into game

i guess not

[chrome palm]

it is but it doesnt work very well

[young reef]

it feels so weird playing without it

im used to seeing my combo points like right above my charactar

in combat

i dont think i was using an addon for that prior

but i cant remember

[lilac stag]

it likely was

Personal resource has been shit since it was introduced

[young reef]

you guys using any specific addon for that?

[lilac stag]

It also has a delay for showing your cp generation

[inner crow]

guessing this has been asked but if im crafting the farstriders mercy and probably gonna play sin aswell should i go haste/crit instead of haste/mastery?

[chrome palm]

wangbar is a good standalone addon bettercdm is good if you want to use the cdm as well

[lilac stag]

Wangbar

[young reef]

kk ill try out wangbar

also, bit off topic but, does anyone have a good nameplate addon? (i want to get it back to original as possible before they changed it)

i tried to download plater, and it sucked so bad lol

[chrome palm]

platynator is decent

[lilac stag]

Platynator

[chrome palm]

luxthos has nice profiles for it

[lilac stag]

Put whatever on it. Does assa actually care about stats?

[young reef]

bruh if it looks anything like that, that sucks lol

[warm marlin]

jundies platynator has been perfect for me

[young reef]

i want it to look like original

in tww

/ shadow lands etc

but idk how

[chrome palm]

default nameplates with everything turned off is probably your best bet

[young reef]

the issue with it, is that my allies / enemies look the excact same

i acnt tell them apart in arena or BG

there is no red tinge to the enemy

so only way i can know is by tab targeting

lol

[lilac stag]

#pvp

Ask for ui help there

[young reef]

i did try this though, and the nameplate themselves arent actually bad

its just the differentiating ally/enemy

i actually kinda like the new nameplates

[chrome palm]

did you try this last setting

[lilac stag]

default nameplates makes me want to gouge my eyes out

[chrome palm]

like simplify friendly

[young reef]

was looking at that setting yea, ill try it out

im hoping it still shows if my ally is in a cc with that tho

[tribal blade]

did they finally make a good tanking enchant

this sounds pretty good

[young reef]

anyone got a weak aura to see your dance timer ?

i usually had one to show right above my char, next to my combo points lol

whenever i was dancing

or are weak auras disabled / not allowed?

[lilac stag]

weakauras are dead

[young reef]

as in disabled? or ppl just dont use em anymore

[tepid trellis]

as in it got killed by blizzard

[brisk onyx]

voidstorm trinket had been nerfed lul

wtf

[raven blaze]

hi i thought we were supposed to get like 650-700 haste "AKA 18%"

but im already at 19% are 615?

[lilac stag]

Raw stats not percent

[warm marlin]

@tepid trellis

[lucid jackal]

!ban @smoky spade

[raven blaze]

so i should trust the 650-700 above what this number is telling me

[warm marlin]

ok guy fast on the trigger recently

[tepid trellis]

cheater

[lilac stag]

outlaw reaction time right there

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/clint-eastwood-gunslinger-six-shooter-gun-flip-flip-gun-into-holster-gif-12524647873518510513

[tepid trellis]

i was putting down the puppy so i could type

[smoky egret]

Is there a DPS cap on delve bosses? Because I'll nuke an elite with 700k in seconds, but the boss with 200k less health is taking way longer with full cds on tier 1.

[warm marlin]

yes

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/revolver-ocelot-gaming-mgs-guns-gif-17353618

[warm marlin]

dance duration uses your raw haste numerical value

the percentage is just an approximation

if youre a nelf or goblin or something that wont help

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/hop-on-the-cycle-frontier-the-cycle-frontier-hop-on-the-cycle-frontier-gif-26888181

[tribal blade]

did i miss a ban

what happened

[raven blaze]

sup lads, what are the fastest delves today

[raven blaze]

stuff might be on cd

[lilac stag]

Can I interest you in some crypto?

[tribal blade]

lol

hello this is brad pitt, i'm having some financial difficulty

[lilac stag]

The oddity of sling for fastest selves in here (the slowest pve channel) vs the wow general chat confuses me

but I digress.

Yes Mr Brad Pitt. I would like to invest in your Se7en Crypto Coon

[raven blaze]

what does this mean by "different attack'

each separate cast ?

or each unique cast

[lilac stag]

Differnt

Not separate

[raven blaze]

so evis only procs it once per shadow dance

[lilac stag]

Ignore it. We don’t play around it

[raven blaze]

does it not make backstab better than shadowstrike once per dance?

on pure single target

[warm marlin]

nop

backstab sucks!

[raven blaze]

all the dif tree options have been simmed and this is for sure the best one right in sub faq, so theres no point in theorycrafting right?

[lilac stag]

you can do what you want as far as picking talents. Sims are as accurate as they can be.

we don’t post bullshit talent builds

[tribal blade]

very good, send me 10k bit coin

[raven blaze]

wait the ancient arts optimization isnt true for aoe fights?

[smoky egret]

I can promise you, i'm not going to go from bursting over 100k and deleting elites in under 10 seconds, to not being able to burst a tier 1 delve boss that only has 500k health. I know how much damage I should be doing when im pressing cds and I do think there's some kind of hard limit at play here to force you to see mechanics.

[raven blaze]

its probably just armor and resist values then

[tribal blade]

strike does like x10 the dmg of backstab

[raven blaze]

can someone confirm that i shouldnt be optimizing for ancient arts on aoe?

[lilac stag]

by chance did you read IV or Wowhead guides?

[raven blaze]

nope just this disc

[lilac stag]

They tell you exactly how many targets to stop at

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tiny jetty]

To all the fellow sub mains that have done a couple M0’s, whats ur overall dps lookin like?

[hybrid prism]

Depends on the zone. Open world, don’t you get like tons of buffs in the Amani zone? Maybe that’s why it feels different? I can’t remember if you get buffs in the other zones.

[hybrid prism]

A fucking lot m8

[raven blaze]

like 120k on packs with shadow blades

like 50k on bosses

[smoky egret]

It happened across every zone while i was touring doing delve stories.

[lilac stag]

They’re m0. This content matters as much as prepatch did.

[smoky egret]

The difference is too big to chalk up to just rng/ crits.

[hybrid prism]

I’ve broken 220k on some packs before. It’s 🥜

[tiny jetty]

Just trying to establish a baseline since this is my first expansion as sub

[lilac stag]

and you won’t be able to

gear matters, pulls matter, group matters.

worry about it when you have tier and actual gear

Do more than the tank and get out.

[hybrid prism]

Also even in m0 the packs die pretty quickly. Might be different in m+ when they last longer, but right now I am the strongest in every group and it ain’t even close.

[lilac stag]

[smoky egret]

bold statement for some specs with guardian druid existing.

[tiny jetty]

Aight

[hybrid prism]

Bunch of chumps

[lilac stag]

Just don’t group with em and you don’t need to worry.

[smoky egret]

Can't wait for the wowhead post that confirms that i'm not crazy about the delve boss DR.

[raven blaze]

i saw a demon hunter doing liek 150k with their cds

i think it was a demon hunter, they were purple on my details

but they were bottom inbetween their bursts

[lilac stag]

I wouldn’t be surprised. Phases aren’t exactly a new thing.

but ya know, armor and resists

I need a snickers bar

[smoky egret]

every boss DRing right from the start doesn't exactly seem like "phases" but yeah sure we'll call it armor.

[raven blaze]

i dont see why they would need to do some weird hidden mechanic to make delve bosses tankier when they can just give them armor and resists

but hey blizzard is dogshit so fuck it bro u could easily be right

theres no need for it to make sense

[smoky egret]

There's just no world where I shouldn't be deleting those tier 1 bosses off the face of the map in like 5 seconds

[lilac stag]

Which delve was it? I’ve yet to see any stops but I haven’t run anything this week

[smoky egret]

but it just doesn't let me.

[smoky egret]

all of them.

[lilac stag]

[raven blaze]

on a similar note i did aberrus and was dealing 1 mil dps

enemies were level 83

[lilac stag]

How is that similar?

[warm marlin]

I was killing a t7 delve boss with 4.1M hp in like 2mins

[raven blaze]

things taking dmg that seems off

[warm marlin]

didnt seem to be that dr'd

[smoky egret]

Maybe it's DR thats limited relative to the item level reccomendation of the delve level?

[raven blaze]

i did delves at low item level and my damage was the exact same dps as outside of delve

[smoky egret]

Since i was slamming tier 1's for story maybe it was limiting it based on how much damage i should be doing at that iL

[blazing night]

Hello everyone! Can someone help me understand the mechanics, here?

[raven blaze]

i spammed tier 7s at really low ilvl because i thought it was necessary

to get highest ilvl gear didnt know tier 4s was enough

but i didnt have lower dmg than outside delve

[smoky egret]

I believe it, that sounds about right.

[blazing night]

The abilities, reading them, aren't making it super clear to me and I think I'm doing a lot of guessing.

[brisk creek]

If i have dance active before heroism starts, do I gain the additional time from haste to the remainder of my dance or does the haste have to be applied before dance is activated?

[raven blaze]

@brisk creek only flat haste value counts i think

[brisk creek]

oh so hero doesnt effect the time of dance at all?

[raven blaze]

ok so im reading these guides that someone linked, i dont understand why the apex talent optimization doesnt apply to >3 targets

my understanding was,
builder finish builder finisher builder finisher
with apex talent every finisher, was better than
builder finisher finisher builder finisher

[warm marlin]

coup is a higher prio than bp at all target counts. macro just casts coup over bp when its ready

coup does big damage, cleaves, gives you more finisher damage yes very good

[warm marlin]

no it does not. only the numerical haste value on your character sheet affects dance time (and tfd talent)

[raven blaze]

i was lied to? i got told coup isnt good unless u dont have stacks of the buff

[warm marlin]

yes always press coup

good button

[raven blaze]

i removed it from my bp macro

[warm marlin]

well

[raven blaze]

[warm marlin]

you sometimes want to hold it that is true

if a pack is about to die it's a big burst button

you don't want to use it then

[blazing night]

when you say "its," what do you mean? bp or coup?

[warm marlin]

when coup is ready

[raven blaze]

oh btw coup sometimes doesnt give me the buff, wtfs up with that?

[warm marlin]

you need to proc it

[hybrid prism]

As sub you can beat this regularly

[warm marlin]

bug, used to require fazed on the target to give flawless form stacks. we complained. they said they fixed it and changed the tooltip. they did not

[raven blaze]

ive never hit 150k

[hybrid prism]

You’re doing it wrong then

[blazing night]

So anytime I could hit BP and Coup is ready, I should hit coup instead?

generally speaking

[warm marlin]

unless you want to hold coup for some reason, like the pack is about to die

or a damage amp is coming

[raven blaze]

even on opener, shadowstrike -> shadow dance shadow blades sectec, shadowstrike evis shadowstrike evis shadowstrike vis

im not hitting 150k

[hybrid prism]

I’m talking about aoe packs.

[blazing night]

Okay, assuming none of those are true, what I said is true? Sorry to be redundant, but I think it matters if we care. lol

[raven blaze]

i hit 120k on packs but ive been doing ancient arts optimization when apparently thats wrong on aoe

i dont understand why though

[warm marlin]

yes, coup is always better than bp no matter the target count

[raven blaze]

how can ancient arts optim be better on <=3 targets during dance but not better outside of dance and not better with shuriken strike on >3 targets

[blazing night]

So, for symbol use on the macro... should probably just look like I'm doing black powder and let coup take care of itself? (assuming I'm not tracking for those other things in any away, which I wouldn't, but!)

[warm marlin]

technically, doing the apex optimization slightly lowers your overall finishers "cast". the optimization is more accurately a result of shadowstrike being very strong, which is why you still do shadowstrike to proc it even at 3 targets. you can see my breakdown of the approximate napkin math here #subtlety message