subtlety

[quiet elm]

i just noticed that secret teqnique never consumes the ancient arts proc, is this intended or am i doing something wrong?

[alpine wraith]

premeditation has a bug with refunds

!premed

[wicked jolt]

There is a bug that makes it so while Premeditation is active you cannot get a refund nor spawn the clone from Ancient Arts. This is not something you need to play around, as using Ancient Arts of Secret Technique is about the same value as using it on a regular Eviscerate.

[alpine wraith]

why? who knows

maybe cps are afraid of the grey face

[ornate lake]

With the 4P we can throw in 2 sec techs inside blades right?

[alpine wraith]

sec tech cdr is from haste not blades

you also need longer dances for it to work that is why you use the haste trink mainly

[sour horizon]

I dunno bout you guys but after prepatch im really enjoying sub again with the apex

Prepatch had me lil worried lol

[quick marlin]

ye sub s much better with the apex

[lilac stag]

We were pretty adamant in here to not use pre-patch as a guide for what sub would play like.

[tribal blade]

yeah the dooming over sub without understanding the apex was funny

[lilac stag]

dooming sub is just what the people want.

[tribal blade]

i felt like i was talking down a crowd threatening to jump off a ledge in here haha

but sub is still simple for sure

one of my guildies is playing it for his alt right now and asked if it was supposed to be this simple

BUT i'm vibing with it

[lilac stag]

between 2 button and “assa being more challenging buttons” it been a trip.

If you don’t enjoy the gameplay that’s fine. I think they nailed so many aspects of simplified WoW while keeping it fun.

Delves are going to be so much fun on sub

Rogue utility sucks in m+, but cds all the time is great

[tribal blade]

haha yeah the main thing that's difficult about sin is playing DS esp in aoe

but that's just DS things

[tribal blade]

yeah it felt pretty good in M0s

[lilac stag]

I think we’ll maybe see some apex coup maxing for “priority” dmg but that’s just feels

[tribal blade]

i think so too, i've been doing it some in dungeons

[lilac stag]

Considering where everything was in November, I’m quite happy.

[minor trout]

i just checked apl:
actions.cds+=/shadow_dance,if=!variable.stealth&variable.shd_cp&energy>=30&(buff.shadow_blades.remains>=cooldown.secret_technique.remains|buff.shadow_blades.up&cooldown.secret_technique.duration>=18|cooldown.secret_technique.ready&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>7)|fight_remains<=10
wouldn't this mean we don't pop a 2nd dance always in shadowblades? like without 4set the conditions for the shadowblades dance are basically never true. or am i missing something?

[lilac stag]

looking on phone which is ugly’s. That should be end of fight use where if you can get a supercharged Sectech with dance in do it and ignore back to back dances in blades

[minor trout]

buff.shadow_blades.remains>=cooldown.secret_technique.remains|buff.shadow_blades.up&cooldown.secret_technique.duration>=18

Those Are basically the ones for the dance during blades

And this would never be true with only 16sec blades duration if we pop blades and sectec together

[lilac stag]

fight_remains<=10

you can poke eleem of fuu

I won’t try to claim anything more than the basics of what they cook

[minor trout]

Yeah but that’s just an or State ^^

[lilac stag]

You can still get two off without tier during lust

[minor trout]

#subtlety message @hazy breach @vale pine

[minor trout]

Ah due to cd reduction of sectec due to haste you mean?

[hazy breach]

What

[minor trout]

Am I getting the new apl wrong or do we not send 2nd dance always in blades anymore?

[hazy breach]

You do

But if your sectech cd is short enough you hold to make sure you can fit it inside dance

But yes the apl is mostly optimized around having the tierset

[minor trout]

Oh I got that apl wrong sorry

U check for the baseCD of sectec not the remaining in the one line

Sorry for that

[shy scarab]

we sending spark or we just wait for hc week?

[quick marlin]

prolly wait for first mythic vault

[lilac stag]

if you’re true believer send.

[sour horizon]

The other day doing t7 atal aman you can stealth all the objectives and go right to the mobs before last boss then the boss, was great! Was about a 6min run

[vale pine]

there isn't rly any content this or next week to spend a spark on

[hazy breach]

While that is true, most people are also unlikely to craft anything else

[sour horizon]

The cost of mats and then again to recraft is what most peeps are waiting for I guess

I usually wait until myth opens coz ive been lucky sometimes with a weap drop

That said my alt is weaponsmith dagger for BS xD

[lilac stag]

I just want to get shit done as quickly as possible. The 259 helps.

I don’t enjoy non stop questing which is kinda where we are for this and next week to rep farm etc

[mystic juniper]

May be a dumb question, but in WoWhead a suggested macro is backstab/shadowstrike combined. Does this no longer work in Midnight? or is my macro broken?

[slender kraken]

they got rid of that, recraft is pretty cheap now

[shy scarab]

i didnt get a 2nd spark on my alt does anyone know how to get it?

i guess we got 1 spark from the world tour quest

[cursive island]

One from the alcantina thing and one from the WQ tour y

you need to skip the campain to have it tho

[sly shore]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[grand galleon]

why is Amani Tribe renown 8->9 12500XP while others are 2500

[vale pine]

it still works

unless i made a typo

let me quick check

[sour horizon]

Oh nice!

[mystic juniper]

I think it may be working now, probably my scuffed copy paste.

[wet raft]

I'm not crazy am I? I've been noticing when Ancient Arts 4/4 procs and I use Secret Techniques I do not get any combo points

[hazy breach]

!premed

[wicked jolt]

There is a bug that makes it so while Premeditation is active you cannot get a refund nor spawn the clone from Ancient Arts. This is not something you need to play around, as using Ancient Arts of Secret Technique is about the same value as using it on a regular Eviscerate.

[wicked urchin]

234 ilvl now

gaming

[fallen ruin]

Is Danse Macabre now not relevant? Or does it proc on every Shadowstrike + Eviscerate so you don't have to use Black Powder or Shuriken Storm in ST

[hazy breach]

Its not worth to use anything you werent gonna use anyway no

But it also procs of sectech and coup

[vale pine]

make sure you have it on both the stealth and the regular bar

maybe thats why

[shy scarab]

ah ok

[shy scarab]

thanks!

[glacial eagle]

wait what the fuck
we're now a pure DPS class
with no AoE hard stops?...
what the actual fuck are they thinking

[flat wyvern]

!poison

[amber sedge]

Should we craft the Dagger now or wait?

[vale pine]

this isn't news, just change in implementation

[lilac stag]

Search this channel. It’s asked almost every hour

[vale pine]

they removed it from the tooltip during beta and made a bluepost note

its just now fixed to not work anymore

[amber sedge]

Dont yell at me :(

[vale pine]

which is sad

but well

[glacial eagle]

I mean I was expecting them to fix the design rather than the implementation ngl

[quick marlin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glacial eagle]

like yes I would understand having 24s AoE hardstop is OP
but surely it's just stupid to leave a class with already lacking utility with no AoE CC at all
so we could maybe go to AoE Blind on 1min CD, which would be slightly worse than what Mage can still do fine
but now? wtf are they thinking...

[vale pine]

i mean rogue in general is not that well designed for m+

most competing specs have raid buffs with noticable impact, our small damage reduction is usually not relevant in comparison

tuning is very hit or miss

we don't have aoe stops, but good single target interrupts, which sadly often get dr'd by other classes

shroud was nerfed heavily during/after BfA with changes to dungeon deisgn

the last point is important, because shroud was one of the stand out utility options before

[glacial eagle]

yeah

[lilac stag]

Then they gave it to mage

And put truesight on everything

[wintry heart]

Blizzards favorite class gets it all

[vale pine]

They did two things

[glacial eagle]

like right now my bud says "you've got shroud"
and I tell him
"name more than three spots you used shroud at during TWW S3"

[lilac stag]

Yeah DKs get everything.

[vale pine]

1. put true sight on most important mobs, so you can't skip them

[glacial eagle]

and increased the req counts so high you don't want to skip anything much in your most direct route anyways

[vale pine]

2. increase mob % requirements heavily, making skips feel useless/redundant

[glacial eagle]

p much

[vale pine]

e.g. we did the world tour yesterday

and i asked to do skips a lot, and mind you its m0 so there is no requirement to do % count

we did effectively 1 skip in a total of 8 dungeons

there is enough potential

its just people just don't want to skip anymore, what if one of the group oopsies, rather not skip

[wet idol]

Ppl even forget we have shroud.. Same here did m0 with guildmates, I had to remind them that the spell still exists

[glacial eagle]

ngl sometimes I do give in to the dooming of "Blizz barely remembers Rogue exists, much less like it"

[upbeat garden]

Hi, anyone knows how to get 2nd spark on alts ?

[vale pine]

we will see, blizz typically reacts to extremes

if rogue is heavily underrepresented

it might get either overtuned, or we get attention elsewhere

[upbeat garden]

it already is ,done m0 on 3 chars no rogue

[vale pine]

to be fair

maybe that feels like a unfair critique

[upbeat garden]

probably ,but when u have in queue 70 ppl and half are warlock dk ,mage and some random warrior

[vale pine]

but applying poisons every hour is such an outdated and annoying thing, i don't know why we still need to do that outside of assassiantion

[random mason]

or why it's not just a stance trigger like pala aura

[lilac stag]

Rogue not popular. 😲

[random mason]

where u choose your poisons and that's it

until you log out or whatever

[peak matrix]

if this has already been answered i apologise! but are we crafting this week or waiting?

[vale pine]

and rogue has multiple "annoyances" like this

besides the big elephant in the room

our animations are not fancy

[upbeat garden]

Im curious how to get 2nd spark cuz I leveled my rogue second and had world tour quest only on main

[lilac stag]

It’s a weapon enhancement. Not an aura.

[random mason]

the poisons are not applied to weapons

they're a buff i have to press every time i enter a dungeon

[lilac stag]

They are. Take your weapon off and put another on

[random mason]

they only disappear if i have no weapons on

[lilac stag]

at one point you could swap weapons for poison maxing in PvP. Not sure that’s been a thing for a bit.

[reef walrus]

they haven't been applied to a weapon specifically for many expansions now though

[vale pine]

depends on how much you optimize, crafting a dagger is usually fairly secure as its usually your priority upgrade.

[lilac stag]

there just a lot of archaic code in rogue. unlike Paladin we haven’t gotten a proper full rework. Just spaghetti code patching

[vale pine]

holding has the advantage of more chances to get alternative gear, but holding for one week is fairly irrleevant, if you would hold you would probably craft after heroic week or even in mythic week

[peak matrix]

i was thinking of crafting a dagger and just upgrading it to Myth track when available

[vale pine]

probably safe to do

[weak vector]

I was about to ask the same thing. Thanks for answering. Crafting it is!

[vale pine]

as mentioned above, it rly depends on how much you care about holding it for mythic week to optimize output there

or well could also argue you spend less gold on it with later crafts

[lilac stag]

only way it’s bad is if they buff the shit out of fishhooks

[vale pine]

i mean

the risc is still there

blizz does some item/enchant tuning

so embellishments could change

[lilac stag]

then you’ve got two crafted daggers. Oh well. Hah

[vale pine]

XD

i hope not

[lilac stag]

Unless it drops in raid I won’t see one in vault.

so I just auto craft one at this point

lucky with mounts. Unluck with weapons.

[vale pine]

i mean ye, weapon is typically the best first craft

unless you get lucky

[glacial eagle]

I mean
I hold somewhat radical opinions on Rogue
so here's my main one - Rogue is probably by far the most outdated class in terms of general design, usability and QoL for the current game
in a way that Blizz's Midnight-style pruning would never solve
like legit the most major change over 20 years was making combo points personal rather than target-dependent, and that was 2014

[vale pine]

!premed

[wicked jolt]

There is a bug that makes it so while Premeditation is active you cannot get a refund nor spawn the clone from Ancient Arts. This is not something you need to play around, as using Ancient Arts of Secret Technique is about the same value as using it on a regular Eviscerate.

[vale pine]

bugs like this

just make it harder to intuitively understand things

and rogue has energy + cp which is a somewhat unique concept

compared to most others using builder/spender

[glacial eagle]

I mean not anymore since Monk
but Monk like
does a very big thing
its finishers 1) don't use all CPs at once 2) don't cost energy

which means the flow is highly different

(and closer to the general builder-spenders)

[vale pine]

my try to explain it would be simple

if you compare

[wet raft]

Personally I would like to see Relentless Strikes be baseline and energy removed from Finishers

[vale pine]

you usually have spells either with cooldown or spammable

[junior ether]

yh as first time rogue player i can say i failed already, run out of shadow dance and no energy be like

[vale pine]

which build a ressource

[quick marlin]

whats ur gear

[vale pine]

but building rarely costs a ressource

[glacial eagle]

yeh building is 99% free

except for Rogue and Monk (but Monk gets some offsets)

[vale pine]

and even if it does, spending your 2nd resosurce does not cost your primary

[glacial eagle]

yep

[vale pine]

this means there is a more complex dynamic for rogue compared to other classes

thats not inherently bad

[wet raft]

I feel like feast or famine gameplay is wild in 2026... That should be when you mess up...

[vale pine]

just one more reaosn people prefere something thats straight forward

[glacial eagle]

it's not inherently bad but it's mmm, how to say this

[vale pine]

just takes some pratcice

[junior ether]

iirc 200 but it's not gear problem tho, simply not understanding class is more problem, there are 4 buttons only so yeh, but i still trying to figure it trhough wowhead guide and icy

[vale pine]

staying in melee range is rly important

and keep presisng spells, especially in aoe

your cooldowns are your "burst", but you also need to use them a lot

its a common mistake, if you are new, to sit on cooldowns

best is to just send unless the pack is very, very low

some of the m+ bosses have vulnerability phases, it sometimes makes sense to hold cooldowns shortly for them

[junior ether]

yep, im reading your guides every day like it's first day and trying to figure, because ngl first time i saw i need to press 4 buttons i thought it's gonna be free win xD

and after dungeons i see that it's not that simple

[quick marlin]

you dont press 4 buttons though

[vale pine]

you can macro bp and coup

this takes out a lot of thinking

[quick marlin]

fuu is there a reason my #showtooltip doesnt work on the bp and coup macro

[glacial eagle]

it's a setup that feels kinda bad in a game where nobody else can really run out of resources so hard as to be unable to press basic buttons
Energy right now is a resource that is either negative or neutral, and if it's too easy to be neutral then it might as well as not exist, which instantly looks like a design issue, which is why Blizz keep coming back to it when Energy is too easy to maintain
but if it's too negative then it often feels like you aren't playing the game
so the best design of Energy is to make it neutral but to make you work for it, which...still doesn't feel that good to most people, because you're running to keep up, rather than to run faster

like the initial design point of energy existed in a world where casters would just run out of mana after 3 minutes of casting their spells, and warriors were not GCD locked (at least design-wise) because Rage was too scarce until very high item levels - and Energy was unique because you couldn't run out for long
but those limitations went away pretty quickly, while Energy stayed the same

[vale pine]

and secret to dance, so you always send dance-secret with full cp

[quick marlin]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[vale pine]

both make mental load a bit lower, and don't sacrafice anything for it

i rly found melee range to be important

for energy

also for coup

^^

[junior ether]

gonna try today with macro

tysm

[vale pine]

good luck, and if you need more help just ask

there are a few classes which seem a bit too good

but we are not bad

[eager patrol]

I played midnight yesterday after some months away

and they butchered sub rogue no?

3 dmg spells gone

[vocal pulsar]

i find secret to dance macro kinda awkward
i mean, arent there situations where you dont want to instant secret after dance?

[eager patrol]

no cdr reset on shadow dance and secret technique

[vale pine]

(warlocks seem to be tuned a tad pit too high for example)

[eager patrol]

feels so fucking boring to play?

[weak vector]

When did blizzard say theyre doing the next round of tuning?

[vale pine]

only 2nd dance in blades

and you are lucky there

because secret is on cooldown

^^

[vocal pulsar]

quiet the only reason i didnt macro it 😄

[quick marlin]

u guys are getting a 2nd secret in ur sblades?

[swift tinsel]

The 17th

[vale pine]

^ with raid opening

so for the better or worse, we will have a lot of warlock fotm players

maybe some mages too, they seem good (not as good as warlock tho)

[eager patrol]

whats the take on sub rogue does anyone think it doesnt play boring af n horrid compared to before

[swift tinsel]

Then they all reroll when the tuning nukes them from orbit

[vale pine]

its a change of enviroment tbh

[eager patrol]

like it literally took me 2 hours to even begin playing after I logged on and saw 3 buttons gone

[vale pine]

i don't think one class plays better

[eager patrol]

I keep trying to use symbols n rupture

[vale pine]

for what its worth, the refunds make sub feel somewhat fun

[quick marlin]

as a freshie to the spec i like it, i think the apex thing adds some complexity to it which makes it fun to play. if the apex thingy didnt exist it would actually be zzzz

[vale pine]

i wish we had secret once per dance

[swift tinsel]

Sub with apex feels infinitely better than sub without apex

[vale pine]

via some sort of talent like shots in the dark

apex and some amount of haste

makes sub a lot better

[weak vector]

Ive played since 2005 and this is my first time enjoying Rogue. I liked the changes so much I decided to main Sub. That's just my take, though

[swift tinsel]

So judging the spec without that is not ideal

[vale pine]

so if you start leveling and it feels bad, it will egt better

[glacial eagle]

I would say that Arms plays better (despite the tuning being shit)
but the absolute peaks and valleys of Rage on Arms specifically feel bad

[weak vector]

dungeons pre-apex were horrible

[swift tinsel]

Every spec I’ve been leveling has felt kinda shit until the apex talents start rolling jn

[eager patrol]

yeah I stopped after like 3 hours and didnt open it for a day but do the levels really change sum on ur gameplay?

didnt see getting any new buttons to press

so its still the boring little variety in what u can press

[swift tinsel]

There aren’t new buttons

You just use them a little differently

[solar silo]

During blades, do i use the shuriken storm/dance macro for the second dance or whats the optimal play here?

[vocal pulsar]

sub felt fine the whole jurney from 80-90, for me

[swift tinsel]

It’s subjective

So that’ll happen

[vale pine]

apex gives you refunds and more energy/cp

so it changes the pacing

which means, you feel better during cooldowns

[eager patrol]

okay refunds sounds fine and while leveling energy felt horrible so far

[vale pine]

outside of cooldown is, by deisgn, not fun

[eager patrol]

so thats 2 good things to hear

[vale pine]

so that won't change

if you level

a hot tip is

to use dance before mounting up between quest mobs

so you bank some supercharger combo points

makes things die a lot faster

[vocal pulsar]

and cancelaura shadowdance

[eager patrol]

aight thanks for the tip 🫡

[vocal pulsar]

for restealth

[vale pine]

only if you restealth

if you mount up, it does not matter

[crystal bone]

i believe u storm and powder at 2+ targets, and coup when ready

[sour horizon]

This was the first expac I enjoyed leveling as sub

Usually id swap to assassination just for leveling, sub atm just blows packs/mob up and moves on

[crystal bone]

yea sub has a lot lower cd's now i just pull packs of 5+ and kill them all in 4 globals lol

[vocal pulsar]

tried assa yesterday in m0 tour still feels way behind of sub, but can feel very strong i think with mobs living longer
also did wqs and stuff in assa, wasnt as fun and fast as with sub
can see why you liked it^^

[covert pine]

What bout outlaw vs sub?

[vocal pulsar]

needs more parctice on my side also no weapons for it atm 😅

[small helm]

does the shadowstrike port only work out of stealth and not during shadowdance?

[sour horizon]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

yes

[swift tinsel]

Correct

[vocal pulsar]

outlaw alsways feels like you need to snore a line be4 you can actually play it

[covert pine]

Lol yea many buttons but played sub last xpan and wanna know how it is now (law)

[swift tinsel]

Sub >>> Outlaw >>>>>>>>> Assassination

[small helm]

I thought it was just my game bugging lol

[tribal blade]

sin has the potential to be far stronger than sub in keys

depending on tuning

haven't run M0s yet on my alt sin rogue but ran a random heroic today and it felt very good

[swift tinsel]

Imma try out outlaw in our 4 m0’s tonight

[tribal blade]

i really don't want to play outlaw haha

i'm just sticking with sub and sin

[swift tinsel]

I just don’t vibe with assassination lol

I get the direction and the gameplay but it’s just not for me

[tribal blade]

it actually flows quite well now with CT change

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that part I don’t mind

[vocal pulsar]

want the old killig spree back 😄

[swift tinsel]

As much as I liked IC

Fuck no old killing spree was aids

[tribal blade]

only issue with sin is you have to play DS in keys

actually maybe only DS in high keys

[swift tinsel]

Yeah and that’s a huge detractor for me lol

[tribal blade]

you can prob just play FB in anything else

[swift tinsel]

That’s not so bad then

[tribal blade]

i heard FB is actually stronger than DS

[wintry heart]

Not a fan of DS overall so I’m glad sub doesn’t play it

[swift tinsel]

Fixing antifunnel was a godsend

[tribal blade]

it's just DS has a much better dmg profile

[tribal blade]

yeah DS blows

also you should change your icon haha

[wintry heart]

I forgot how 😂

[tribal blade]

should just be reacting to a post

i dunno if it's in the sin channel let me look

[swift tinsel]

It’s in Channels and Roles

[tribal blade]

yeah look at pins

scroll all the way dow nto the bottom of the pins

in the sin channel

you can change it there

lol sin still has bleed build and sub still has dust hater

[wintry heart]

Dust was my biggest pop

[tribal blade]

i did not like dust

[wintry heart]

Well I changed my reaction and that icon is still there

[tribal blade]

might need to unselect DS not sure

[wintry heart]

I did!

[tribal blade]

it might not be immediate maybe

[swift tinsel]

Hey at least the name color changed to the right one

[tribal blade]

LOL oh shit

[steel zinc]

I just hope it stays this way and we get a full hero talent rework

DS is the worst hero talent still for any rogue spec

They removed mark for death just to make a worse version as hero talent

[torpid echo]

what is the options u need to activate in game to see the apex proc?

[steel zinc]

Show spell alerts

[torpid echo]

this?
thanks in advance

[steel zinc]

Yup

An addon btw should be able to customize this actually

[torpid echo]

wish we could jsut add this to the cdm

[steel zinc]

You kinda can

So what I did turn this into an icon that glows with ancient arts symbol

You can pretty much do anything to style spell alerts

[torpid echo]

what addon did you use for that?

[steel zinc]

I have some private stuff. Might release it

[torpid echo]

will be on the lookout, ty!

[steel zinc]

Issue is if a spec has more then 2, spell alerts you can differentiate

It just "skins" the alert itself

[torpid echo]

what would be the other spell alert?

[steel zinc]

For rogue none but other classes specs

[torpid echo]

I see! Thanks for your help tho!

[warm marlin]

👀

[muted kindle]

sub looking alright in the raids? i know they aint out yet so its probs hard to say

[lilac stag]

answered your own question you did

[cursive vapor]

fastest way

[muted kindle]

ahh it was just incase people played the ptr thats all 😂

[astral axle]

The raid testing was ages ago in comparison to when PTR finished for what it is worth.

But sub should be fine.

[kind edge]

there is any1 here that can craft the dagger maxed ? im in europe servers.

[muted kindle]

ahh fair, tbh i kept out the loop of it all so wasnt sure.

[lilac stag]

Has to be on your server. Just use trade chat

[kind edge]

tired to spam, just tried my luck here

[lilac stag]

if your faction is dead make a toon of other faction and ask in that trade chat

[muted kindle]

tbh last time i asked trade you literally write it once before the bots grabbed ya

[lilac stag]

This isn’t a place to craft.

[kind edge]

yea this place wont ever be the same now 🙁

[lilac stag]

Look. Gave you the right advice. Don’t like it? Pound sand.

[silent ruin]

Is there a bug with deathstalker, not able to apply mark, and have to log out n in for it to work again

[kind edge]

thanks for the advice bro, i will keep it ❤️

[lilac stag]

just don’t play deathstalker and bug goes away.

[silent ruin]

Ok

Helpful

[proven sand]

what buffs do i need to track on my cdm for sub?

[torpid echo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

dance, blades, escalating blade (coup buff)

shadow techniques

probs all you need for buff tracking

[proven sand]

tyty :)

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[graceful osprey]

Don’t know if it’s just me but running a few M0, sub is cooking hard right now

[jade urchin]

whats the cd window like with lights company trinket? do we bind trinket and shadowblades separately because of the small delay?

[swift tinsel]

ye its big fun

probs won't last into high-high keys but still big fun

[modest river]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[graceful osprey]

I suppose we’ll see with the upcoming tuning, surely no nerfs for sub

[steel zinc]

btw do we want to force to go into dance sectech or its fine to dance/storm sectech?

[placid tendon]

is the 18% haste including or excluding the 3% from alacrity?

[quick marlin]

650-700 in numbers

[edgy zenith]

okay, is this also related to Shuriken Storm in some way? I remember on Dimensius prog I could press Shuriken Storm on platform 1 right after everything died and still generate a combo point

or was that just a weird Dimensius platform thing

i don't even play Rogue this tier bc rogue boring now, but I saw this and was curious

[placid tendon]

just dimmy having a huge hurtbox

[edgy zenith]

oh really? the SS was hitting Dimensius on p2.1?

that's wild

[placid tendon]

nvm i thought u meant p1 mb

[grand galleon]

on 18% haste, I have base 1.9s deepening shadows:
shouldn't it be more than 2 if we want to squeeze one more global in this case?

[lilac stag]

Your first global is at 0 seconds. You’re getting enough haste to get x amount of globals in the length of dance is extended accounting for couo and player reaction time.

[grand galleon]

so in theory anything above 1 is good if you are not making mistakes?

[quick marlin]

whats ur haste in numbers

[grand galleon]

621/14.11%

[lilac stag]

You ideally want 684-700 haste

[grand galleon]

so the haste % on wowhead is taken into account on myth track, rather than baseline on all item levels

[sick epoch]

They could fix many other buggs but nah...

[vale pine]

true, this bugfix hurts^^

[graceful osprey]

Aiming for that 3588 haste holy

[grand galleon]

they immidiately fix only bugs that make you strong....I remember in TWW sin had bug where caustic was doing more damage and they fixed it even without reset...in the middle of the week (suddenly it can be done)

[sour horizon]

Dont worry theyll nerf arms warr again to make us feel better

[jaunty heath]

I gamed 3 rogues in world tour m0 and sub feels fun actually. Dmg of outlaw is not that bad but sub much more fun, with aug and other buffs 😄

[marsh patio]

Poor one out for me, accidentally crafted an intelligence dagger. Jesus I’m stupid

[quick marlin]

[jaunty heath]

Haha

[sour horizon]

Dont worry, more will do it

[cursive vapor]

@vale pine what are your thoughts on apex talents just in general?

[glad cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/ironic-star-wars-chode-gif-5274592

[warm marlin]

iirc pressing storm will consume sht even if it hits nothing

unrelated to the ct change

[short aurora]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[ornate lake]

https://tenor.com/view/fell-fell-for-it-fell-for-it-again-fell-for-it-again-award-award-gif-15411198764799214626

Happened to me last expansion

[raven mural]

Might aswell re roll into warlock

You still have time

[marsh patio]

If they weren’t bind on craft there might be merit lol. I guess I’ll just put it in the bank to remind me of my mistake every expansion

Will have the slowest hovers over crafted weapons forever forward lol

[loud wharf]

I say fuck it....use it flex on the normies

[edgy zenith]

oh maybe that was it

[azure thicket]

sub litewlly feels the same but with more refunds

miss the shadowcraft refund wa tho

whump noise will be missed :'|

[plush roost]

Ye its a 2 button spec tho

How can i flex my skill by not pressing backstab with a macro in dance

:/ back to bm at least theyre complex

[azure thicket]

still doing normals but it feels like there's room to just double dance and still have sec tec/second shadowdance for blades etc

dry sending :y

[lilac stag]

First one this expansion. Congrats.

Won’t be the last

[lilac stag]

You can try to ticket it and get a refund. Ask them why dagger didn’t have int & ago like warglaives.

[graceful osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/drink-pour-glass-gif-1021536644824363008

[marsh patio]

lol, I tried and got declined. My understanding is they did refunds back when crafting sparks were first introduced but reversed course on it at some point. Was worth a shot

[lilac stag]

Keep trying

[rapid forum]

flame the ui/ux designers while at it

[marsh patio]

They just said “wow that’s frustrating, sorry we can’t do anything for you. Wanna give feedback on crafting? Have a nice day”

[rapid forum]

Just request addon refund in the ticket

mby they rather refund the dagger than addon

[marsh patio]

It is kind of funny that they’ve gone through so much to make the expansion launchs as none sweaty and forgiving as possible but there is nothing you can do if you fuck up on a early craft

[lilac stag]

Be annoying without being annoying.

[rapid forum]

you can

they have refunded in the past

jsut need to lottery hit the right gm

[marsh patio]

Yeh, when I googled there was one or two people in 2022 but all the recent cases I looked into said nope, but I guess I could keep trying lol

Would be funny at least if I get the same guy again

[rapid forum]

im telling you

[vivid slate]

do i build with shadowstrike og shuriken storm during dance window ?

[rapid forum]

just ask for addon refund

[azure thicket]

shuri storm in aoe

[lilac stag]

This is the way

[marsh patio]

When you say addon refund

Do you mean like expansion?

[rapid forum]

yes

[lilac stag]

I want my money back

[rapid forum]

ultimatum them

[marsh patio]

Gotcha

[lilac stag]

Or fix my dagger

[rapid forum]

either gimmme dumbass pixel

or 50 bucks

your choice gm

make customer happy

or loose customer

[lilac stag]

refund gets you to a real person as well

[rapid forum]

unfortunately not always true

[lilac stag]

Or should

[rapid forum]

my refund was handled by ai

[azure thicket]

anyone else bummed shrouded in darkness is impossible to take

[lilac stag]

Oof

[rapid forum]

ima show you

[azure thicket]

my free second sprint 🙁

[warm marlin]

make the healer baby you and drop EE

[plush roost]

Dw theyre removing all utility to make a raid buff for us

[azure thicket]

no that causes group vomming

[plush roost]

Surely..

[warm marlin]

[azure thicket]

but im sure there's tech involving it and the reduced shroud cooldown

skip every 3 minutes is hella sus

[rapid forum]

@lilac stag

here, forgor to censor their name

[lilac stag]

Ai slop

[rapid forum]

they didnt even read ticket, the addon refund was handled without ticket automatically. i made that ticket to ask if refunding game time is possible

stupid ai cant even read

[azure thicket]

fell through terrain on that swamp temple of filo area

ree

[plush roost]

The only real place i can think of for reduced shroud would be algethar vexumus area and double invising the bridges, but why do that

[azure thicket]

too lost in the capybara sauce

[left ledge]

no aoe cc anymore means there's no need for stops in m+ anymore right

[fluid moth]

I still don’t understand why that change was warranted when other classes have significantly more

[left ledge]

aoe blind was too powerful

[rapid forum]

because of rogues superior crazy damage

[left ledge]

it was basically like DB

[brave raptor]

I find it amazing that Rogues and Mages/DK are in the same game with how unbalanced the kits are

[left ledge]

so they had to remove it and nerf cheap shot

[lilac stag]

I had to call our credit union as they improperly assigned a fee to a loan that was paid on time. 3 times I made the proper selection for loan department. 3 times it routed me someplace else. Third time I threatened to move or business. I said fix it and leave me a message it’s been fixed. I have to go teach. Oddly it got fixed.

[fluid moth]

They already added CS cooldown 😭

[left ledge]

you should be happy you're allowed to keep cheap shot

[warm marlin]

just think, we can use a damage cd, most of our combo points, a lot of energy, and 4 gcds to stop 4 mobs now

kind of op if you think about it

[left ledge]

this class is inflated with crazy utility

[rapid forum]

ye sometimes you just gotta be harsh, cant be nice if ppl too dumb to do their job after x amount of tries

[azure thicket]

hmm i haven't played any of the dungeons except algethar

[left ledge]

i mean, you can PICKPOCKET a mob

you can SAP

[azure thicket]

didn't even do pit of saron back then lol

[left ledge]

you can pick locks??

AND aoe cc?

[lilac stag]

I was sure to tell the rep I’m not mad at them, but the fucking phone system that is not sending me to the proper department.

[left ledge]

we got lucky with getting away with that for an expansion

[warm marlin]

i lockpicked one of those boxes for the first time in a couple years this expac

30 silver

truly op

[rapid forum]

first it was automatic phone systems/bots now its ai chatbots

[azure thicket]

the gouge/airborne irritant choice node is such a nothing burger lol

[left ledge]

yeah they unironically worse than tbc lock boxes

LMAO

[rapid forum]

fucking clankers smh

[left ledge]

honestly gouge is probably the better option now

[warm marlin]

gouge is miles better

[fathom adder]

Solarplexus

[left ledge]

airborne irritant makes blind turn into ranged gouge

[astral axle]

I still have the muscle memory of running through the hitbox while pressing gouge

[lilac stag]

MORE KEYBINDS!!!!

[left ledge]

but if you pick gouge you have blind AND gouge

[warm marlin]

would you rather have 1 st stop on a 24s cd or have 1 st stop on a 24s cd and 1 st stop on a 1min cd

not really a choice

[left ledge]

also if you pick gouge

you can just have a mob blinded out of the pull

[lilac stag]

choice nodes being a choice.

[left ledge]

crazy utility

[azure thicket]

oh true...

hmm

[left ledge]

they couldve just fucking gave us aoe kidney man

im still sour about that

[warm marlin]

exciting to discover while levelling that nimble doesnt break blind

[left ledge]

the community always fails to show me that they are anything but subhumans though

tweaking the fuck out over... an aoe stun

because those totally dont exist...

[lilac stag]

rogue is get to 3k and afk

[left ledge]

i mean if we cant get utility at least make us thanos

[lilac stag]

but but thanos can then be a warstomoer

OP

[rapid forum]

no, only mage, dk and lock are allowed to be like that

[astral axle]

Give rogue two charges of kick

[left ledge]

ok but fr

we're all just being dumb

what rogue really needs is another form of passive (or nearly 100% uptime) DR

especially if its another RNG one too

[fathom adder]

perma feint

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-12869046600151364058

[left ledge]

and i need evasion to continue being an absolutely useless button without elusiveness

[lilac stag]

just give us lust at this point.

[left ledge]

that wouldnt fit thematically

[upbeat garden]

A real buff and lust

[left ledge]

but god damn i love seeing that monkey pet of the hunter scream or some shit and then make everyone have increased haste

[fluid moth]

Tbf i like that choice node. It’s actually a real choice.

[warm marlin]

elusive/cheat is probably one of the best choice nodes in the game

[left ledge]

i mean i just play elusiveness 100% of the time

[warm marlin]

well for raid ig

[fluid moth]

Same but I understand the appeal of cheat death

[warm marlin]

keys ye its just elusive

[left ledge]

cheat lost all its value for me last tier

[warm marlin]

kind of interesting choice in raid sometimes

[left ledge]

nah i mean in raid too

[lilac stag]

Lust + Throwing Knife is now a ranged interrupt

[warm marlin]

raid damage is just too universally aoe other than specific fights for me to warrant swapping off cheat

[left ledge]

find elusiveness makes me more proactive and aware of mechanics

[azure thicket]

no no

3rd charge of shadowstep

[warm marlin]

the scenario where I die through cheat but elusive would have saved me is practically 0

[left ledge]

end up taking 0 damage, and then my healers cant use me to parse

[azure thicket]

gotta flex on the lil bros

[warm marlin]

and rogue already takes 0 damage on most fights

[lilac stag]

Tell that to assa

[warm marlin]

i did play elu for all of NK though and cheat would have saved me like one singular time in all of prog

[left ledge]

idk, thing with cheat is

its useless against dots

completely useless

[warm marlin]

yes but most scary raid dots are aoe

in keys ye theyre mostly st

[left ledge]

almost every time i proc cheat, i couldve just been healthier with elusiveness

[lilac stag]

All the rot dmg kinda scary

[left ledge]

its the opposite is it not

[hazy breach]

Nop

[left ledge]

i feel like most scary dots are randomly applied to certain players

rather than mass aoe

[lilac stag]

nah. Healers heal the targeted

[hazy breach]

Well how theyre applied doesnt matter, its whether or not its coded as AoE

[warm marlin]

the only one I can think of from mfo was banishment on nk

[left ledge]

oh you mean that way

[warm marlin]

also why i played elu on that fight

[azure thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/ponke-ponkesol-monke-monkey-solana-gif-3585156520597261775

sigh

close enough lol

[hazy breach]

For example second boss in ara kara, the big beetle, applies a big dot to a player, but its reduced by feint

[lilac stag]

I run cheat since I’m blind and the telegraphed mechanics and very little depth perception sucks ass

[hazy breach]

Whereas some bosses like the bee boss in meadery have absolutely no AoE abilities whatsoever (despite them hitting all the party)

[warm marlin]

that pushback not being aoe was criminal

smh

[left ledge]

i guess itll just depend

on how most damage is coded this season

[fleet acorn]

What do I get out of delves what ilvl ?

[left ledge]

though ive really not missed cheat much myself at least

[warm marlin]

as a default I always play elu in keys from day1 and cheat on all raid fights unless there's a decently strong argument against it

[left ledge]

i just run elusivness and dont think about it

[warm marlin]

i do think playing elu makes you a better player though

[hazy breach]

Idk most of the value of cheat is from when you fuck up

[left ledge]

yeah thats what i feel

or someone else fucks you up

[hazy breach]

Which is very valueable

[astral axle]

what is that like? i am perfet

[left ledge]

yeah maybe on earlier or riskier prog for hard bosses

but then again idk, i guess ill see when i fully prog with elusiveness this tier

i did not fully prog last tier with elusiveness (although i did for basically the bosses that matter)

[fluid moth]

I usually start with cheat and end with elusiveness. Fuck ups become more rare as you do more prog.

[left ledge]

yeah maybe cheat for early bosses that im brain off for

[hazy breach]

Idk

[warm marlin]

like dimensius there was very little argument for elusiveness

[azure thicket]

you could do araz with elusiveness but

why

[swift tinsel]

I just run cheat unless there's something I know I'll need elu for in raid

[hazy breach]

The more prog the more valueable cheat is because you dont want a single misstake to wipe the raid imo

[warm marlin]

the random bolts in p1 were st, and the rings in p3

[azure thicket]

like you lose time not running it

[warm marlin]

but u step the rings and feint keeps you alive well enough that any overlap with bolts wont kill you

[fluid moth]

You make a good point @hazy breach

[hazy breach]

Unless theres a very very specific reason to not pick cheat (like nexus king where it often doesnt work)

[fluid moth]

That’s why it’s such a good choice node tho.

[left ledge]

i think every single one of my dim kills was elusiveness

[swift tinsel]

feint being so good on its own is just so comfy

[hazy breach]

I dont think elusiveness is ever worth it in raids

[swift tinsel]

ye same 99% of the time

[warm marlin]

I believe very strongly it was the better choice on nk

at least before they changed cloak to clear banishment

[hazy breach]

Ye since cheat literally didnt work

[astral axle]

yeah we still got mc'd if we cheated didnt we?

[warm marlin]

it still worked past p1 but like dying there was almost always ur raid is wiping

and not individual damage

[left ledge]

i will be test subject this tier all g

will be running elusiveness and see how it goes

[warm marlin]

i posted it before but this was our prog kill dimmy damage taken, like a lot of raid fights will look like this where elu is just overkill

[spiral needle]

elusiveness is typically for spots where cheat death doesn't work right like kyveza or M+

[warm marlin]

and cheat did save me a couple times when mistakes occured (like the gravity man dying in p3 )

[lilac stag]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

You cannot track the apex talents Ancient Arts through the cooldown manager. However they do show up via the ingame like THIS. If you cannot see them you must go into your settings and increase your Spell Alert Opacity. Some popular Addons (like ElvUI) disable these by default.

[warm marlin]

i probably wouldve played elu on fractillus too i think

the bleed dot hurt

[hardy agate]

Is the reshii sim accurate? It tells that my 240 cloak is better than reshii wraps, but i thought we switch only when we get hero track

[swift tinsel]

you can switch way before hero track

[azure thicket]

think someone said adventurer gear yesterday was when they replaced boots/cloak

[brisk reef]

i don't wanna jinx it but isn't sub doing rly decent damage rn ?

[astral axle]

ik in like... 2 weeks it literally wont matter, but socketed/enchanted rings from last season are relatively high value rn, no?

[hazy breach]

Yeah theyre similar to 230 new rings

Because of the extra socket

[warm marlin]

they hotfix buffed the midnight enchants recently

maybe yesterday

the new rings should be better now

[hazy breach]

ye but that hotfix didnt really do anything

They buffed the stats from 22 to 29

But we were using the 1% crit damage anyway, and that wasnt touched

[warm marlin]

ye just purely on a stats comparison

[astral axle]

Im not going to enchant some dinky ass 220 ring anyway haha

[warm marlin]

the 1% crit damage one is mega expensive still

[hazy breach]

Can do old enchants

[astral axle]

HOLY

[hazy breach]

Or old gems atleast

[warm marlin]

think my 224 ring sim went from 0.1% to like 0.8% post buff

[astral axle]

in my mind.. the wheels were turning

[hazy breach]

Ye fair

[warm marlin]

and u can't do old enchants, only gems

[hazy breach]

Mb mb

[warm marlin]

a bit sad

it lets you start the cast to apply the enchant but then it doesn't work

[astral axle]

Foiled!

[azure thicket]

300k for 6 agi from the augment rune is a lil

that's what..2 ilevels?

[hazy breach]

A wise investment

[vale pine]

https://giphy.com/gifs/pudgypenguins-money-finance-burning-2lIvCQgYM4VTQ7SE1q

[azure thicket]

i think it was 4 before the buff

[warm marlin]

300k?

[astral axle]

I have a genuine but dumb question: in dance with 4 or more target count if you get coup and have full combo points... if for some reason you don't have ancient arts, it is FOR SURE worth forcing it and couping since they fixed the bug, yeah?

[swift tinsel]

augment runes are like 1.1-1.3k

huh

[warm marlin]

equal bruv

[astral axle]

that owns

[swift tinsel]

I do it for the prio and the vibes

[graceful osprey]

It’s kinda odd how TWW stat gems are just as good as midnight gems

[sullen hare]

Don't worry, they'll nerf those too I'm sure

Not replacing the cloak and boots until 230+ is kind of a meme though

[chilly kite]

you can only stat squish things so much before its like do i want the old one that gives +1 or the new one thats 100x more expensive and gives +2

[swift tinsel]

big picture gearing-wise replacing them at 230+ isn't that wild with how good it is

[sullen hare]

I just mean it's interesting that it's not being replaced until champ track basically

[swift tinsel]

I'm surprised they didn't either turn it off at 81 or have the proc scale back

[sullen hare]

I agree

[graceful osprey]

I really think after the last titan, they’re going to transition into WoW 2. Too many stat squishes

[hazy breach]

Ye but turning off the tier set at 81 was apparently required

When tier was just flat dps

[swift tinsel]

yeah idk those 5% dps buffs are giga

[graceful osprey]

World of Warcraft becomes, Galaxy of Warcraft

[swift tinsel]

meanwhile my cloak nuking from orbit at 89

carpetbombing lashers

they had it coming

[chilly kite]

wow 2, playing from the pov of the burning legion

[astral axle]

I think the main thing I like about sub rogue is that dave the sub icon guy looks like the kinda guy who twiddles his fingers before taking a cookie from the jar

and that's just the kind of vibe we need in this day and age

[graceful osprey]

The last titan, we the players lose and right as xalatath consumes Azeroth, Nozdormu reverts time and we all start back in vanilla but it’s called WoW 2

[normal compass]

Anyone crafting this week?

[hollow spear]

Does that mean we'll have backstab soup with a side of slice and dice?

[azure thicket]

ye there's a guide you can get 2 sparks this week

have to finish the campaign which is what im doing

https://tenor.com/view/troll-diesofcringe-worldofwarcraft-wow-diesofcringa-gif-27522541

[chilly kite]

i'm still convinced the last titan is sargeras and illidan are the good guy bro's that are gonna save everyone.

[sour horizon]

Gotta yank that sword out

[chilly kite]

what sword?

[sour horizon]

[astral axle]

It is kind of funny to me that like TWW starts with the "... but that sword" cinematic with Thrall and Anduin

And then it isn't discussed again

[sour horizon]

Its pretty clear TWW was already deep in dev when they pivoted to a saga

[hazy breach]

Het atleast azeroths song is mentioned in harandir now

[normal compass]

I just never know WHEN to craft

[dense geode]

before raid if youre pugging

after dagger boss if youre raiding

the tldr... theres more nuance but thats how it usually goes

[vale pine]

don't overthink it, can craft now, and its fine
or craft once raid opens

content atm is trivial

so its not like you need the extra boost

[glad cosmos]

I crafted now. Dagger good regardless. It is expensive though

[azure thicket]

not to post dumb but im pretty sure the boom in the pet capture noise is the og halo shotgun sound

[rain stratus]

!palter

!plater

Fuck whats the command for Junds plater profile

[swift tinsel]

!jundies

hm

well if you google jundies plater its one of the first results

[astral axle]

https://wago.io/ak3iS95aa

[marble sail]

Do we have any inside info on when we will be good

[valid turtle]

What stats do we want on crafted dagger?

[misty tinsel]

I know it doesnt change very much dmg but give me some inspiration for the race of my rogue plz guys

What do u guys usually play ?

[marble sail]

Sim urself or look at the guide

[marble sail]

Bis for dmg is either voidelf, orc or mechagnome, however those are all ugly and nelf is bis

[hazy breach]

Wrong, its panda

(or mechagnome)

[wintry heart]

Wait plater works and I don’t have to look at blizzards god awful nameplates?

[marble sail]

Ban @ admin

[marble sail]

Look who just woke up

[hazy breach]

Platynator

[wintry heart]

I’ve been awake for 6 hours already and before you ask yes I’m dead inside

[marble sail]

I didnt ask

[azure thicket]

is details still wonky

[wintry heart]

Anyways thicc elf is the best now I don’t make the rules

[marble sail]

Yes

[azure thicket]

time to make jalapeno poppers

[astral axle]

platynator is so cozy i will never stop singing that addon's praises

[misty tinsel]

plater > all

[lilac stag]

haste mastery (haste crit if using it for outlaw)

[misty tinsel]

ahahaha yeah frontflip between every auto attacks is bis

[sullen hare]

https://tenor.com/view/hot-and-spicy-spicy-food-gif-26188988

[radiant swift]

imagine not playing undead

[marble sail]

i would play undead is thier racials werent completely useless

undeads animations are totally bis

[radiant swift]

the very best

[hazy breach]

False its panda male

[marble sail]

ban

[radiant swift]

ban him twice

had panda on that toy, that changes appareance

[lean rover]

What is the haste Soft Cap again for Sub is it 700 that we are trying to reach

[azure thicket]

cannibalize is still goat

[swift tinsel]

Recuperate with a cooldown

[azure thicket]

i guess recuperate is also a funny bad manners button

surely

[astral axle]

Cannibalize is a good bm button. But it doesn't hold a candle to the Flag of Ownership from the WoW TCG

That thing managed to tilt me endlessly back in the day.

[astral mountain]

Basically just trying to get 700 (18%) as a soft cap.
After you get past 700 the priority of haste goes down significantly really

[graceful osprey]

You know it lol

[dense geode]

What is the reasoning behind the soft cap

What does it provide

[graceful osprey]

Now that you mention it….the whole TWW never mentioned it

[tulip light]

is there a way for "us" to implement stuff like the voidspire trinket into raidbots or how does it work?

[tepid trellis]

think the renown trinket got added yesterday iirc

so it should be working if you use latest

[astral mountain]

The idea of the haste is to allow you to get your dance duration long enough to double dance in your shadow blades windows in simple terms. Any haste past that goal isn’t gonna make a huge difference in your play so it isn’t worth really prioritizing it

[tepid trellis]

haste doesent lower the gcd

its just increases the duration of dance

[sharp swallow]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

2 extra globals in dance, with some leeway for latency and coups 1.2s gcd

[astral mountain]

Mb thank you for the correction

[buoyant shale]

Does anyone know how to either move or remove this icon. It's for important debuffs. I think it's part of the base game but may be part of bigwigs. Either way I can't for the life of me find where to change it in either edit mode or the bigwig options.

[hushed roost]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hushed roost]

coup in aoe is damage gain? or just more prio

[tepid trellis]

dmg gain

[ornate lake]

You never want to waste coupe though

[tepid trellis]

per cast it does very high dmg + it cleaves with nimble flurry + gives 5 stacks of flawless form

[ornate lake]

Guys how impactful is the ancient art 5 shadow technique strat actually??

In boss fights i sometimes miss it and feel bad.

Should I feel bad?

[hazy breach]

1.5% compared to not doing it at all

[ornate lake]

Hmmm

[hushed roost]

is there a note for what your'e talking about

[wintry heart]

So unless I’m in liquid the guild I can just ignore it sick

[ornate lake]

So like secret technique without cold blood last season

Got it

[tepid trellis]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only up to 3 targets.

[ornate lake]

aa!

[hazy breach]

Its mentioned in the optimization section of #subtlety-faq and the guides, but theres also what stealthi just linked

[hushed roost]

ty, just getting back into sub again after playing assa on nexus/dim lol

[manic ice]

and to be clear, if i Evisc to consume the Apex, and im left with 4 stacks, i just Evisc a second time

[tepid trellis]

yes

[ornate lake]

Also, do we hold abilities if I'm at 3 stacks of coupe and blades/sectech is coming off cooldown in a few seconds

[tepid trellis]

if you cant proc it after your first evis again

then you just finish again

[tepid trellis]

you can hold a few sec if you are at 4 stacks

at 3 just keep going

[sly shore]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[raw arrow]

Ok I'm probably not the only one who thinks this spec is overtuned right? I mean I just delete things with my 2 buttons lol

[weak otter]

i mean if you have only 2 buttons then makes sense that they do damage

[vale pine]

i don't think we are overtuned

[raw arrow]

Guess it's just m0 and my friends aren't the sweatiest players. It feels good tho tbh, I was kinda scared because of the "2 buttons" complains but it plays pretty smooth

[tepid trellis]

think the only thing sub does better than most specs is doing insane single target while also doing high AoE in m+ builds

my Devourer dh which is the same ilvl as my rogue

does quite a bit more AoE dmg

but it does also do significantly less boss dmg

[frail kindle]

Bro I was doing m0s with a devourer dh who was like 180ilvl fresh out the campaign and he was topping some aoe pulls

But ya zero boss dam lol can’t fake that

[tepid trellis]

if the pull lives long enough

that thing does ALOT

[frail kindle]

That spec is so weird

[tepid trellis]

each star casts just ramps

[frail kindle]

Like its op but not op at the same time I feel like

The potential it has is crazy

[tepid trellis]

i did a 270k star cast on a boss

[frail kindle]

But then you have to cancel a star cast and you want to delete the character

[tepid trellis]

and a 900k one on the dmg amp boss in the void dunggeon

[frail kindle]

That sounds kinda lit

I like big numbers

[plush roost]

Ye devourer on beta did crazy boss dps

Spec is 100% meta next season unless hella nerf

[tepid trellis]

only issue dev really has

is at the start of the key

[maiden oar]

ok i will play it

[tepid trellis]

starting with 0 fury

is rough

[maiden oar]

fun spec

[plush roost]

I mean thats just the dh issue

[tepid trellis]

well havoc doesent have that issue

[plush roost]

On felscarree havoc doesnt have that problem

Ehhh aldratchi last season

Had shitty first pull

[tepid trellis]

well thats a glaive issue

[plush roost]

Ye just like its a ramp issue for dev

[tepid trellis]

or just get lucky and it wasent an issue

[plush roost]

TRUE

[tepid trellis]

and you could just force glaive procs with hunt

dev cant do that

[plush roost]

When the nova procs 19 souls first pull floodyG

[tepid trellis]

you just stuck pressing consume for 20 sec

[plush roost]

Oomph

[tepid trellis]

i still think devourer should start with like 80 fury

out of combat

it feels cheeks

[plush roost]

Ye, at least it starts with fragments, thats something

[tepid trellis]

on high AoE its unironically easier to build meta than it is to build fury

[lethal thorn]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush roost]

U can kinda start ramping if theres a long ass gather

But theres like 4 keys with just pull and smash first thing

Unlucky

Im waiting for someone to figure out how to pull the hallway trash in first area magisters with a pet or something

[tepid trellis]

they will get data and feedback that it feels terrible and fix it mid season

[plush roost]

New spec priviledge

Holy spelling

Not even gonna fix it

[tepid trellis]

i need to actually look up how to play the spec

cuz im just winging it

[plush roost]

Lmao i did the same thing

I kinda wanna play havoc.lowkey

It just so undertuned

[tepid trellis]

fwiw tho

havoc has insane upfront burst dmg

very good for m0

[plush roost]

Yuhp

[tepid trellis]

snipe shit before people get to hit it

i still think the highest insta burst class in the game

is ele

that thing does infinite

with 1 button press

[plush roost]

Ye ele is sleeper rn

[tepid trellis]

just insta peaks to 300k dps

and pack is half health

[plush roost]

I dont understand the skillcap on that spec

Cause every ele on beta

Was just ass

[tepid trellis]

dont think there really is one anymore

according to ele players i know

[open depot]

Do you SS on 2 targets? And Evis?

[wind flicker]

outside shadow dance i ss on 2 targets and black powder if theres still 2 targets. idk if thats correct tho

[hollow spear]

outside of dance you get up and get yourself a drink

[radiant swift]

inside of dance ss and apex evis up until max 3 targets

[tepid trellis]

you still consume the apex with BP

you just use a strike to proc it

[open depot]

Acolytes of Misinformation working hard

[radiant swift]

wait what since when

it was apex evis like 1 day ago

did it change again?

!apex

[wicked jolt]

You cannot track the apex talents Ancient Arts through the cooldown manager. However they do show up via the ingame like THIS. If you cannot see them you must go into your settings and increase your Spell Alert Opacity. Some popular Addons (like ElvUI) disable these by default.

[hollow spear]

never heard of the apex evis up until 3 targets

[radiant swift]

st optimazation

in the wowhead guide

[frail kindle]

Not even gonna be bother trying to do any optimizations until March 17th lmao

They might just shoot everything

[radiant swift]

it didnt say specificaly evis but i reasked

[hollow spear]

I dunno, any apex minmax I know of is single target

[tepid trellis]

you can do the forced proc up to 3 targets

[hollow spear]

which kinda goes against the wording of "up to 3 targets"

[tepid trellis]

you just change the finisher away from Evis to BP at 2+ targets

[lilac stag]

ST is single target. You can force proc the spec up to 3 and bp at 2+

[radiant swift]

i see thats new to me

because not to long ago there were issues with bp and it was considered not worth it

since some talent or some interaction didnt work properly?

[frail kindle]

Potent powder bugged I think lmao

[tepid trellis]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[radiant swift]

so it was ss for up to 3 targets to force it but evis for st and bp on every aoe target count?

[lilac stag]

I’m feelycraft convinced forcing apex for coup is a W in multi target

[tepid trellis]

Coup is the highest dmg for it yes

but its kinda hard to "force" it

so you just kinda let it do its own thing

and if it happens good! if not then oh well

[vale pine]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only up to 3 targets.

[radiant swift]

is it? kinda did the same'ish for me overall just spiked faster

[lilac stag]

yeah I mean as opposed to the macro spammers.

[vale pine]

interessting

[warm marlin]

robot said equal but its possible i did something wrong

[hollow spear]

speaking of macros

[warm marlin]

both forcing it with apex cheese vs. just bping until you proc aa naturally

[wispy pebble]

wtf

[lilac stag]

and granted it’s just m0 but shit the meter spikes with coup aa

[static lichen]

Guys has anyone noticed their combo point bar disappearing from their UI and then showing back up again later?

[warm marlin]

well mostly the problem is that you always proc aa coup by opening with sectec

[frigid prawn]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[lilac stag]

like is it enough to start with coup over st if you hold the stacks from last pack kinda thing

[warm marlin]

there is nothing to force because it usually has aa already

[warm marlin]

then u get premed bugged

and even dance/storm -> coup isn't usually going to have aa

because you're just macro hitting a builder instantly, you'll actually never have sht unless you pool

[humble rover]

which trinket should we go for in m+?

!trinket

[lilac stag]

Pooling at the end of a pack

[warm marlin]

you can but in my experience you just get sht so slowly outside dance its hard

idk i tried looking into it but zugzug sectec macro is just good

consistently leads to supercharged apex coup and no thinky required

[lilac stag]

yeah it’s just trying to figure out what the worth vs potential loss is. Current gear level is

was just funny watching dmg meter 🚀

[warm marlin]

was grouped with our devourer player and my st was good, not amazing but your burst aoe is quite good

even sustained aoe feels very strong

[lilac stag]

ye

We’re doing 4 more m0 tonight

adhd I’m enjoying the prey stuff less than 10 mins and done

[hollow spear]

I am looking forward to them taking m0 performance into account for their tuning

[limpid sage]

It feels like the shadow almost deals more than you

[lilac stag]

Ye

[limpid sage]

What’s the chance the coup adds the 5 combo points to the evis after the shadow clone calculations

[warm marlin]

i think the coup clone damage is around the same % as the other clones

clone gets to have it all in one damage event though

while we suffer having 6 of them