subtlety

[static jolt]

uhm, the trickster build on the faq seems to have less talents assigned? just imported the link, i think its still on the lvl 80 prepatch?

[lilac stag]

!guide pick from here then

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[static jolt]

there is only one talent build on wowhead and it does not take potent powder so i assume its not for M+?

unless i am not pressing something?

new way to show talents and info on wowhead is a bit confusing tbh

i might just be a scrub (most likely lol)

ill figure it out if you say its there i prolly aint seeing it

[left ledge]

click the wowhead link, then click on "talent builds"

you will see this

just copy one of these builds

[azure thicket]

is this an hour downtime or longer?

[static jolt]

ah thats what i was missing. i really am a scrub lol.,

[left ledge]

hour or less

[azure thicket]

just hit 85 and started amani troll town :|c

[limpid sage]

ya

[oblique spade]

Is Ancient Arts proc supposed to work with Shadow Technique? At the moment when I have a proc and use Shadow Technique, I was assuming the intended functionality is that it fills my combo points back up with whatever is held via Shadow Techniques - but that's not happening. Is this a known bug or am I missing a piece of the puzzle?

[tepid trellis]

the refund is blocked if you have the buff premeditation up

[hollow spear]

#norefunds

[azure thicket]

2 hours of space marine, yay

[oblique spade]

Yeah okay, so always happens for Shadow Technique used at the start of Shadow Dance - is this intended?

[tepid trellis]

well its a bug

[oblique spade]

Yeah thanks, that's what I asked clarification on, but you didn't say, you just stated what happens

So thanks for confirming 🙂

[graceful osprey]

Wait…another bug?

[vale pine]

not a new bug ^^

[crystal bone]

hey fuu did u happen to see what i did accidently to the EB tracking?

yesterday

[left ledge]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[vale pine]

nope, what did you do?

[crystal bone]

#subtlety message

idk how i got escalating blades to show as coup lol

playing around with the sound alert feature

[tepid trellis]

no longer have to deal with terrible uptime swipes on the cooldowns

goated

[crystal bone]

is that BCM?

[tepid trellis]

no

[sudden quarry]

atrocity pack?

[tepid raven]

🇼

[swift tinsel]

I just use Will's for that

[vocal pecan]

#showtooltip
/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

Does this still work for people? I’ve noticed my coup doesn’t trigger sometimes… is that because coup costs more energy than black powder?

[tepid trellis]

yeh just a his pack + my own fiddles

[potent heath]

Good for me

[swift tinsel]

are you out of melee range

[crystal bone]

is the cooldown swipes actually called swipe in settings?

or is there a proper term for it

[vocal pecan]

Damn. Ok this could be it. Thank you.

[warm marlin]

yes

at least in arcui

[crystal bone]

i'll play around with it later

the yellow swipe is indeed nasty

[cloud swan]

What are most people using for U.I since weakauras got gutted?

[swift tinsel]

arc has an option to only show the cooldown for buffs and not the uptime

which is nice

[warm marlin]

I tried bcdm and was not a fan

it is simpler and easier to setup if thats what you like

arcui felt more thorough but the ui is kind of a disaster

also importing to other characters is a whole process with arc, idk if its easy with bcdm

[swift tinsel]

yeah bcdm just couldn't do that much when I tried it (this was admittedly earlier on in prepatch) and arc is in a better place to do the kinds of things I want from a cdm

its wildly flexible

idk if any other addon can do things like the ShT bar

[warm marlin]

yeah bcdm = simpler, easier to set up, but less flexible. arcui has actually infinite customizability, to the point where the menus are just flooded with stuff which makes it a bit daunting to start with

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah, arguably the hardest part of using arc ui is navigating the menus

[astral mountain]

Mine has been working good still

[warm marlin]

I am very happy with where I ended up with arc though

[swift tinsel]

between the general settings and the cdm icon settings

oh yeah same it's like 93% of my old setup which I'm very surprised I was able to achieve

[warm marlin]

also do use some sort of addon, blizzard just lies when they say addons can't do anything base ui can't

[azure thicket]

they fixed cast bars on ice hud

[warm marlin]

can't add trinkets/racials/other random cooldowns in baseui

[azure thicket]

is there a master list anywhere of useful addons for midnight?

[swift tinsel]

yeah the base cdm is very very bad

[tepid trellis]

pretty sure the addon used to just does it by default

[swift tinsel]

arc even lets you drag and drop spells/items to track

or use spellID

[warm marlin]

yeah arcauras

[swift tinsel]

Will's even adds extra stuff to the cdm which is nice

[left ledge]

ok ok actually what is the best cdm addon

i just wanna track trinkets and see dance cd while in dance

[lilac stag]

The most powerful? Arc

[worldly hinge]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[left ledge]

ok and arc can do that?

what the helly is that

[lilac stag]

Blue bar is active dance

Trinket is in

[left ledge]

can i keep my CDM largely the way it is (base) but with just the cd and trinket stuff

i heavily dislike bars

[warm marlin]

my arc from a week ago or so, fixed some textures etc since

[left ledge]

ok wow those are both arc?

[lilac stag]

You can do whatever you want design wise

Yes

[warm marlin]

yes arc is very powerful

[ripe flame]

Arc is kinda crazy in comparison to other cdm addons

[little ferry]

why do you have only 6 offensive things there, wtf happened with sub

[left ledge]

ok gg

doing that then

tyty

[left ledge]

-flag -sod

[azure thicket]

as long as it can do borderless icons im also doing that

[little ferry]

-rupture too ?

[ripe flame]

As someone said earlier the first time you open up the menu is kinda daunting but with a little elbow grease you can set it up basically however you want

[left ledge]

oh i forgot that was a button already

ngl

-rupture too i guess

[lilac stag]

Best piece of unsolicited advice is design the group settings, not the individual abilities. Way easier to make changes

[warm marlin]

yes

[swift tinsel]

UI final form (for now)

[left ledge]

not sure what this means as of rn but ill keep it in mind for when i get on ty

[swift tinsel]

ignore the passive trinket icon lol

arc auto-tracks it

[left ledge]

the energy/cp is also arc?

im using sensei's or w/e

[swift tinsel]

energy/cp are wangbar

[lilac stag]

You can change what the icons look like via the group setting which does all of them, or have individual overrides per icon.

[left ledge]

wangbar

[lilac stag]

Mine is arc

[warm marlin]

im also wangbar but mostly to support my boy awang

im sure arc's is fine

[left ledge]

oh ok arc can do that too

guess ill just need to fk around with it

[lilac stag]

Yes. No cp delay

Either

[left ledge]

so... its just like making class WA then

[warm marlin]

yes but you do 10x more work and can't get everything like you used to be able to

[wintry heart]

Woah what is arc

[left ledge]

[ripe flame]

Class Arc auras if you will

[azure thicket]

oh wait it's a whole ui addon

mm

[warm marlin]

oh and it can brick itself

[left ledge]

oh?

thats concerning

[ripe flame]

Nothing a /reload ui cant fix

[lilac stag]

That’s everything.

[warm marlin]

i hard coded the position of every buff/cd so I havent had problems

but I know my friends who anchored have had issues

[left ledge]

man if i could just.... see my dance cd while in dance

id be fine

[lilac stag]

yeah avoid anchoring

[ripe flame]

Just a heads up, when switching specs/hero talents it will brick but a /reload ui will fix it

[lilac stag]

at least don’t anchor outside of arc groups

[warm marlin]

also for spriest (from one. of my friends), there's a way to carry over a hero talent tree proc to the other hero tree

and let me tell you that does bad things to arcui

[left ledge]

ok, now im not sure im going to try arc anymore LOL

[warm marlin]

all of them kinda do this though

its just scuffed

[left ledge]

yeah, i have no addons though

[ripe flame]

Personally, it sounds worse than it is

[lusty relic]

Has anyone else experienced a 'bug' (or maybe i'm doing something wrong?) where ancient arts black bar things 'proc' but when you hit the finisher you don't get the combo point refund?

[left ledge]

i legit have one addon rn and its sensei whatever

[warm marlin]

can't get a refund while you have premeditation

is a bug

[lusty relic]

ty

[left ledge]

actually i lied i have handynotes, im genuinely a scumbag liar

[azure thicket]

there's bars tho....hgh

[left ledge]

bars

[azure thicket]

that gives me hope that ice hud will get theirs working again in the distant future

[crimson jasper]

Ayije CDM I like it alot

[azure thicket]

i have goat eyes dw

baby come back

[lilac stag]

Sensei is scuffed because it’s using the PRB api for Combo Points, which is delayed.

[supple pawn]

May I get a correction on the head theory of how the apex works?

Turns Shadow Technique from "generators make more combo points" to "spenders make combo points", therefore before dance you wanna build ShaTech to get more apex proc in dance for more spenders in dance (as well as the cloning on your spenders)

Cancel aura Darkest Night so that you can get Ancient Arts to proc on Black Powder instead of Darkest Night

Shadow Strike in dance with low target counts if no ancient arts so you can just chain combo point spenders with apex proc instead of gen>spen>gen>spen loop

Is that why it plays the way it does/what it does or am I stupid

[pulsar hemlock]

Man midnight sub rogue feels very

[supple pawn]

(this is assuming the proc from shadow technique overcap also makes the ability guaranteed to clone which I honestly kinda forget if that is a thing that exists)

[pulsar hemlock]

But at least I can parse while stoned now.

[supple pawn]

Or if I just misread the rank4 😭

[warm marlin]

if you press strike at 0cp and end with 5+ sht anyway, you still proc apex, so not that. it's just more efficient to build -> cast an apex finisher, getting a cp refund -> build again at 7cp to proc the apex again rather than build spend spend build spend spend

[supple pawn]

I guess I just don't get to wrap my head around why that's more efficient tonight

[warm marlin]

#subtlety message

that's like a gross simplification of the actual math but that's why we have the robot to figure out if its worth it or not

[supple pawn]

1 is the more optimal, yes?

[warm marlin]

yes

[supple pawn]

I understand now though :3

Thank you for the explanation!

Do I have everything else understood correctly? I like to know the theory of why things are

[frail vortex]

while dance it up it feels ok, but man when it isn't you might as well go afk and get a sandwich 😂

[warm marlin]

you don't need to pool sht that much because sectec gives so many sht from the clones

[supple pawn]

Also, is sectech unable to benefit from the apex?

Or does it just. Function differently?

[warm marlin]

the first physical hit benefits, the clones don't clone themselves

[supple pawn]

Ahhh, gotcha

[azure thicket]

wow is updating

[supple pawn]

I also didn't get the CP refuned

[azure thicket]

gaspge

[warm marlin]

cant refund while premed is up

old bug

[pulsar hemlock]

I have enjoyed the visuals of the constant clone strikes while leveling.

Better than nothing I suppose

[supple pawn]

Isn't that what it was like in wawi though 😭

[left ledge]

ah....

[supple pawn]

But thank you ryld

🙏

[warm marlin]

np enjoy gaming

[pulsar hemlock]

Atrocity UI has been clean af and easy to install, if you are willing to pay $4 for it.

[azure thicket]

sub feels about the same, big pulls means less downtime

[lusty relic]

You haven't enjoyed true visual fidelity until a giant loa comes out of your ass and smacks the target alongside your shadow clones

I see nothing

[pulsar hemlock]

Ah yeh, I have that trinket lol

The bear model is massive

[azure thicket]

you definitely do a bit of sitting in single target fights like windrunner last though

[willow fulcrum]

is that good for all 3 specs or mostly sub?

[lusty relic]

Tbh what I really want is a mod that makes Ancient Arts procs literally any color other than black

[cloud swan]

what add-on does atrocity u.i use to make the U.I?

or is it its own add-on?

[pulsar hemlock]

Elvui base, and he has CDM profiles for every spec and class.

I think his CDM addon and QoL add-ons are inhouse made.

[cloud swan]

ahh okay, wasn't sure if ELVUI was still going to work in midnight. Might give it a go. Have not used it in a long time

[lilac stag]

It works. It’s still a hog and doesn’t have a cdm unless they added it recently

Look into orbit if you want an all in one

[sturdy moat]

I just got back to WoW after like 6ish months, is weakauras and a bunch of addons just obselete? Which do yall still use and how do I get my UI looking good again

[hollow spear]

I've used elvui for an eternity, but the performance loss is just too crazy..

[lusty relic]

If you want an easy answer lookup luxthos on YouTube. He has an all in one suite that has import codes and what add-ons you need

Whysper also has good profiles but not as self-explanatory on what you need as luxthos is

[lilac stag]

Just Google luxthos. He has a website for all the imports

[hazy breach]

Or if you want to cook for yourself arcui or better cooldown manager

[swift tinsel]

I'm just waiting for the day blizz kneecaps arc

its too powerful

[hazy breach]

Can't have nice things

[swift tinsel]

and by that I mean it does what the base cdm should do

like allow the movement and resizing of text

or having dynamic buff bars so they aren't in static spots and have ugly spaces in between

[hazy breach]

Im fairly sure it will be added to the cdm the next time they take a pass and update it

[cloud swan]

Is arc complex to use? or fairly simple to setup?

[willow fulcrum]

as someone who've always just used other people's WA profiles, how hard is Arc for a newbie to figure out?

[hazy breach]

But when that is I have no idea

[swift tinsel]

it has a bit of a learning curve

[hazy breach]

Needlessly complex yes

[swift tinsel]

but that's mostly just learning where things are

[slender kraken]

!race

[swift tinsel]

yeah they've gotta get a UX guy on their menu situation

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/na-maintenance-for-midnight-scheduled-for-1-hour-380614?utm_source=discord-webhook

[willow fulcrum]

well that's disheartening lol

[hazy breach]

Panda or mechagnome if you want the highest simming, but realistically as long as you don't play undead or vulpera it's fine

[swift tinsel]

its really not that bad if you just sit down with it for a little while

[chilly kite]

2 hours blizzard time, so prolly 3pm est lol

[swift tinsel]

it was considerably worse to use even a few weeks ago

bc sometimes it just...wouldn't do what you told it

[willow fulcrum]

Well I'm gonna get to 90 first, then sit down and spend a few hours on the ui I think

[swift tinsel]

yeah that's a decent plan

[left ledge]

wait is this real

LOL

[chrome palm]

nerf sht combo points make sblades a real cd again

[hazy breach]

Yes same as last s1

[left ledge]

this is what peak sub looks like

[supple pawn]

Why undead is always the worst u.u

[hazy breach]

Except food buff is good

So panda is good too

[supple pawn]

I wonder how healer races compare

[warm marlin]

buff blades to 50%

[tepid trellis]

nah this version is what sub should be

dance being the power

[chrome palm]

ok but

[supple pawn]

Surely Lightforged, Draenei and crit races are best?

[tepid trellis]

and blades just being a lil cream on top

[chrome palm]

blades doesnt meaningfully contribute to combo point generation

and youre totally saturated with combo points in every dance

you could almost not track combo points in dance

you probably could

[supple pawn]

Yeah it actually feels so good, especially in open world/levelling

[supple pawn]

I would say I do feel this ngl

[warm marlin]

dance being the power with sectec having a static cd

[chrome palm]

also that lol

[vale pine]

it was shortly good after the level squish but only on st

the damage effect is just heavily undertuned

[warm marlin]

but also i like biggie 90s burst

[chrome palm]

dance being powerful sounds like a good idea if you have some flexibility when you use it

[warm marlin]

just make the spec literally afk outside dance and do 0 damage, nerf dance a little, buff blades big style

[supple pawn]

Shortly 😭 I just feel bad because undead is awesome rp and lore but cosmetics and shit is just, god they have it rough

[vale pine]

i play undead

[supple pawn]

Yeah, but as a Draenei player I honestly couldn't bring myself to play one lowkey

Then again it's a lore and thematic I like but just isn't for me

[astral axle]

i like how our damage profile looks like a jack russell terrier with an anxiety problem

[fair anchor]

Does the cp refund from Apex3 triggers the Apex1 talent and has a chance to replicate 50% of the finisher damage as shadow ? Since it technically consumes sht ?

[heady garden]

yep

[fair anchor]

Niice

[torn tide]

well if ur doing well on it then it cant be that bad

[torn tide]

i actually never thought about that, no wonder im slamming like 100k dps now

[supple pawn]

I mean racials aren't that impactful anyways

I really hope undead aren't fucked over once we get race customisation updates

Because I know undead get shafted a lot

[fair anchor]

If it applied to the full damage of sectec it would be so juicy

[hazy breach]

I agree but it feels like 20s is a bit too short, i wouldve prefer 25 or 30

Its fine though

[torn tide]

is it bugged now?

[fair anchor]

Iirc the clone only replicates the initial hit

[hazy breach]

Its only applied to the physical bit of sectech (which is like 25-30% of it)

Its still roughly the same as cloning an eviscerate

But its less than it should be

[fair anchor]

The non-physical parts are already clones right ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[spare hazel]

I would like to clarify shadow dance usage - I only use it if shadow blades is off cd, or if secret technique is off cd. If both of those are on cd, I hold shadow dance even if I have both stacks ready. Correct?

[hazy breach]

That shouldnt ever happen

[plush roost]

If both of those are on cd and you have 2 charges of dance you have messed up

[north jewel]

use it when you feel like dancing in the dark 🕺

[spare hazel]

Ok, and if secret technique is off cd and I have no shadow dance available, I should use secret technique, or hold?

[plush roost]

Use, but also doesnt frequently happen

Iirc only time you hold sec tec is like 2-3 seconds beforee sblades

[lilac stag]

ngl this sounds like open world leveling cd usage

where I could see the CDs being krangled.

[plush roost]

Ye maybe 8 definitely raw dogged a lot of dances leveling haha

[jaunty heath]

this is the correct food right

gonna cook up for whole expansion

[hazy breach]

50 agi ye

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[plush roost]

Ye agi good

[jaunty heath]

its super cheap now btw

[swift tinsel]

also crazy cheap

ye you just buy the practically pork for pennies and the other 3 mats are from the vendor

[hazy breach]

That one specifically doesnt work in sims, but theres another 50 agi one that does

[swift tinsel]

super nice

[hazy breach]

Just fyi

[jaunty heath]

idk if i should go for enchants and gems for m+

last time i check wep ench was like 100k 😄

[swift tinsel]

otherwise if Plant Protein is cheap you can make the Impossibly Royal Roast

[hazy breach]

Does old enchants work

[jaunty heath]

i dont think so

oils was not

[swift tinsel]

petrified roots being so expensive atm is throwing things for a loop

[graceful perch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

I've already started conc burning thalassian oil and light pot/flasks lol

[stuck arrow]

Just need to use the big ass thunder cube to make sure monsters unresist the unholy metanodes.

Easy.

[torn tide]

its like 10k now right? it used to be 30k at some point iirc

[half comet]

im sure its been asked but the point of clicking shadowstrike again if u have 5 sht and the apex proc is because you want ur 2nd evis to be above 5 cp right

[swift tinsel]

they were hovering around 12-14k last I saw

[torn tide]

free money

[swift tinsel]

and ye they were like 50-90k for a while

but iirc 8+ delves supposedly drop them

[torn tide]

what do people actually use those roots for? is it anything like insanelu good

[swift tinsel]

a fuckton of recipes

[torn tide]

ye heroic dungeons drop them too

[swift tinsel]

feasts

weapon stones

if you're making Hearty feasts you chew through them

[torn tide]

well its stupid that theyre that expensive then

[swift tinsel]

well they're rare atm

but will be less so once people get more into the content where they drop

[torn tide]

lmao it'll be like in about 2-3days yea

unless servers cant handle it

[swift tinsel]

Tinderboxes were like that in tww

and if Roots scale off delve difficulty there'll be a ton of them once people get into 11's

[bleak night]

There will be an opportunity though

The moment that content opens up, if you have a way to farm it quickly you could make bank

[swift tinsel]

for sure

[bleak night]

And rogue does have a way to do delves quickly

[swift tinsel]

I think I managed to wrangle 4-500k from EA

[vale pine]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization(Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts not up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only up to 3 targets.

[swift tinsel]

thank you

[jaunty heath]

does alchemy still make flask last longeR?

[swift tinsel]

so much for that

yes

+100% duration when skilled into it

[jaunty heath]

i was trying to find it but did not

at some proffesion page

[swift tinsel]

should be under the flask main node

15/30 KP

[rancid sierra]

Did you guys take the haste or mastery neck?

[stuck arrow]

Sim yourself.

Depends on your other gear.

[torn tide]

dude u already have an m0 done??

[rancid sierra]

That's from zulaman rep

[torn tide]

oh oops

[stuck arrow]

Probably the Haste one better though.

[swift tinsel]

Ye that's a nice haste safety net

[stuck arrow]

Need to hit that breakpoint for 2 extra GCDs.

[rancid sierra]

we goopin now

it was haste one btw

wait you can get 2pc tier set this week?

[stuck arrow]

Try to hit 650 to 700 haste btw. ~18%.

[rancid sierra]

yeah hoping i get some m0 haste swaps

[swift tinsel]

pretty sure you can't get tier before the season starts

unless they changed something

[rancid sierra]

the tier set swapper thing is active

and i have a charge

and this quest gives second charge

[swift tinsel]

that's a Spark

for crafting

[rancid sierra]

one sec

i swear it let me do it

im hearthing

[swift tinsel]

Spark is crafting, Catalyst is tier conversion

[rancid sierra]

you right

the quest sent me to it

and i thought it was saying that was what spark is for

[oblique isle]

Are you in eu or

[rancid sierra]

NA

[lilac stag]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[oblique isle]

cause abundance is bugged rn in eu

we can get tomorrow

[rancid sierra]

Yeah mine fixed with reset todaY

[haughty mural]

How are you guys feeling max level with full apex ?

[swift tinsel]

I'm diggin it

[rancid sierra]

I love it

[south kernel]

honestly sub feels really nice with apex

[haughty mural]

[south kernel]

and lowkey its the nicest among all 3 rogue specs in terms of gameplay

atleast for me

[meager nymph]

Well I will say that I was leveling as assassin at first at midnight

[astral axle]

sub apex owns

[haughty mural]

Relatable

[meager nymph]

Switched to sub, and things die much quicker

People seem to be really upset about rupture being pruned on the forums though

[south kernel]

assa just feels way too slow tbh i go oom turbo fast and shit dies too quickly

[south kernel]

forums? what are those

[slender galleon]

yeah was trying to use outlaw, but sub just kills so fast comparatively

are we supposed to just send the free spender w/the apex talent?

[meager nymph]

Class forums on battle.net

[astral axle]

sub is the noob spec now. and by noob i mean noob saibot from mortal kombat, on account of the shadow clones

[haughty mural]

We couldn’t care less in here tbh

[south kernel]

in ST u can optimize by reproccing apex

[stuck arrow]

Sub feels great to play. Tbh.

Of all specs I've played. Good mix of burst, utility & complexity.

Particularly when in open world having strike teleport and on demand burst feels great.

[south kernel]

in the guide for clear details

[warm marlin]

I miss rupture

[haughty mural]

You do ?

[stuck arrow]

I do miss symbols and rupture - but meh.

[meager nymph]

Rupture didn’t really have much interaction with the spec so I don’t really care that much

[haughty mural]

Unexpected

[meager nymph]

I will say it is a loss for pvp though, I could care less about symbols

[astral axle]

I think sub needs a lil somethin extra. But I do like it a lot still.

[stuck arrow]

I miss having to press SnD too, tbh.

[rancid sierra]

I feel like something like old hemorrage would fit better than rupture

[warm marlin]

well i miss all the things they removed to some degree, but certainly flag > rupture > symbols

[south kernel]

tbh i didnt feel rupture being gone because dance and tech have such high uptime so i dont get into the bored out of my mind state that often anymore

[haughty mural]

One more thing would be nice, I agree .. doesn’t need to be rupture for me

[south kernel]

[swift tinsel]

apex rupture might have been fun

[warm marlin]

I really do feel like there needs to be a foil finisher to sectec that is only cast outside dance

[swift tinsel]

or tremendously annoying

[warm marlin]

it would help the flow a lot to dance/sectec/burst, get out of dance, reapply something

the 1-2 eviscerates you cast between dances just feel entirely meaningless

[swift tinsel]

if they upped the CD on dance slightly I wouldn't mind a non-dance finisher

[haughty mural]

Might be that, if I think about df s3 set

[meager nymph]

Might be a controversial change but I think they should just remove the positional requirement from backstab or just replace it with gloomblade

[warm marlin]

could rework symbols to give you a short duration damage buff to press before dance

[haughty mural]

That’s fair

[warm marlin]

and make it a finisher

[astral axle]

[Gathering Shadows] in between dances to amp your next sec tech

[hazy breach]

least controversial take imaginable

[lucid jackal]

Guys hot take:
My reaction: 🥶

[sullen hare]

is the controversial take in the room with us? I can't tell

[stuck arrow]

I wonder how much DPS loss it would be to take gore to fill in between dances. Is the apl decent for it?

[warm marlin]

goremaw

[meager nymph]

It would be controversial
To some people

Mainly vengeful gladiators from 2007

[crisp jetty]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[haughty mural]

[sullen hare]

I got great news for you

[hazy breach]

Yes, but it just sucks ass

[sullen hare]

a) they don't exist anymore
b) they're quarantined in #pvp

[mighty citrus]

I put it in my actionbar, not talented, as I have my rupture key gap 😂

[hazy breach]

Like why would you give up 4-5% eviscerate damage from finality to be able to cast 2 extra backstabs every 45 seconds

[stuck arrow]

Ah. Yeah makes sense.

[mighty citrus]

I wonder what their thinking was, when they designed it

[hazy breach]

Well it was designed in legion

[mighty citrus]

Ah my bad then, thought it was new

[hazy breach]

And then put in as a placeholder during 10.2

Because they didnt have time to design new talent presumably

[lilac stag]

Me not reading above and thinking you’re judging your own hottake:

[haughty mural]

[uneven scarab]

[torn tide]

is sub like really op and just waiting for a nerf now? my damage after getting the apex and knowing what to do with it is insane

[hazy breach]

Dont think its OP at all

[graceful osprey]

Next major patch: we are bringing back nightblade

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/getout-gif-16327023334064302194

[haughty mural]

There are specs like unholy out there

[stuck arrow]

Yeah, I think sub pretty middle of the pack. Certainly not weak though.

[torn tide]

yea it feels really smooth, i just couldnt believe that my dps jumped up so high

[torn tide]

lmao true theyre bs and frost mage is still nuts right?

[lilac stag]

for everyone new here. Heroic week is traditionally our week to shine.

[swift tinsel]

don't worry we'll certainly see well-thought-out tuning in two weeks

[stuck arrow]

I do think though Sub is kind of broken in PvP though.

I'm pretty sure that was why we were aura nerfed.

[haughty mural]

17th will be the day arms is revived

[hollow spear]

There definitely won't be classes doing 150k sims after tuning

[swift tinsel]

they tune pvp separately

[lilac stag]

We got 69 for trinkets. Due for 420 for some of the tuning

[stuck arrow]

Yeah but like.

Why else would they nerf Arms? 😂

[torn tide]

if i have to read more than 2 lines for sub rogue ill just be sad

[swift tinsel]

ask John Blizzard

[swift tinsel]

Based AF

[torn tide]

what happened to looking at the notes and seeing rogue barely have any changes

[stuck arrow]

Nothing. Lol.

[swift tinsel]

as long as said notes are justifiable

which, lol

[haughty mural]

I’ll ask that every day I logged in lately

[torn tide]

oh i meant tuning patch notes

[lilac stag]

Ronkley back to rogue.

[swift tinsel]

same

[haughty mural]

Im still on shout duty

[lilac stag]

warrior vacation over

[torn tide]

i believe that if they really do tune sub, it'll just be for sht maybee

[lilac stag]

I’ll level hunter just to avoid being asked to shout

[hollow spear]

Idk if we need lots of tuning lines right now

[haughty mural]

But now I’m on couch duty atleast, since I had my surgery today

[lilac stag]

More lines of coke

[hollow spear]

Fix the remaining bugs, check how our aura compares and call it a day

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

Hopefully healing is quick and uneventful

[hollow spear]

My guild always asks me to stop shouting

[haughty mural]

Thanks lad will be, I’m sure of it

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel did you sim embellishments by chance?

[swift tinsel]

I have not

didn't look too far into crafted gear yet

might do that this evening

[lilac stag]

I want fishhooks just for the meme

[hollow spear]

Isn't dagger with dark moon first the guaranteed play?

[swift tinsel]

I could see that symbiotic buff thing being good

[limpid sage]

subs dmg profile is op for open world content

[lilac stag]

I’m assuming so, and I’ll make it today

[swift tinsel]

fishhook seems cool tho

[lilac stag]

yeah

[swift tinsel]

oh nice didn't see the guides recommend the partner-buff one

5head me

[hollow spear]

Ain't nobody got a partner

[hazy breach]

Seems like the best options for embellishments are Hunt on weapon and arcanoweave on any other piece

[golden birch]

so we craft wep. first and than belt for emb?

[hazy breach]

Well weapon craft is the best first craft in 99.99% of cases anyway, even if it wasnt the "bis" embellishment

[lilac stag]

2nd always depends on your drops

[hollow spear]

Any early dagger drops in raid?

[limpid sage]

yall use the coup bp macro?

[hazy breach]

Second boss yes

[tulip light]

eary daggers and bis trinkets FeelsGoodMan

[limpid sage]

thought so

[reef umbra]

is sub like, bugged or something

its doing so much more damage than every other spec and class im trying

[swift tinsel]

nah we're chillin

[lavish pagoda]

Is sub superior to the other spec as of today or where do all the specs stand ?

[tough knot]

What is the other spec?

[lavish pagoda]

Assa / Outlaw.

[idle aurora]

Wait so we aren’t supposed to use the macro?

[stuck arrow]

Functionally it doesn't make much difference. Just we don't exactly have a lack of available buttons compared to what we used to have, so like.

[swift tinsel]

its not really a net benefit bc it can use coup at bad times

unless you also have a naked bp bind in which case, why have the macro

[sick epoch]

Actually not, seems balanced

We'll see with rais gear whats happens 😂

[stuck arrow]

I mean isn't Coup de Grace pretty much always top priority due to nimble & flawless form?

Would have to be like 17.7 targets for BP to do more damage than Coup. Maybe slightly less considering GCD bug.

[swift tinsel]

not if the pack is nearly dead

or you're about to dance

[stuck arrow]

That's fair.

[sick epoch]

Do we still dance with 6+ cp?

[swift tinsel]

as trickster

ye

[sick epoch]

As trickster yes

Ty .)

[swift tinsel]

[reef umbra]

hmm.. maybe it's just so bursty that it feels op for leveling?

[fiery fog]

do we ignore the apex proc in aoe?
as in we dont forcefully proc it beyond 3 targets with shadowstrike and just use storm -> bp -> bp ?

[reef umbra]

i'm killing elites like.. 4-5x faster tahn my feral/or assass

[swift tinsel]

yeah

clone bp is doing less damage atm

#subtlety message

[fiery fog]

nothing we can do about it though right

[swift tinsel]

its likely a bug so not really

ah ye sure enough

that's rough

[astral axle]

more like Impotent Powder am i rite fellas?

[pastel quarry]

Damn so is it not worth pressing at all if we have our apex up?

[swift tinsel]

no you just don't force the buff onto bp

just storm-bp-bp

[pastel quarry]

Gotcha

[swift tinsel]

since bp still trucks

[bold pawn]

anyone know why i dont have the yellow quest here for the level 8 renown neck

[pastel quarry]

I was talking to someone the other night about trying to fish for coups with your apex and that shit got confusing, I see a little section got added to the faq though which is nice

You can tame the pangolin?!

[honest saddle]

ok sorry, bit confused, we still coup when its up and just storm bp bp bp yeah? We arent striking in aoe at 3+ correct

[swift tinsel]

yeah still coup in aoe as normal

iirc eleem said its neutral to try and apex coup in aoe

[honest saddle]

spamming bp takes zero brain

ill just do that

[swift tinsel]

yeah and its strong so it all works out

[honest saddle]

I dunno if the people im playing with are just trash or if sub is just busted in big pulls

but sub seems REAL good

in aoe

[swift tinsel]

it def does good damage

probs sleeper strong

not fotm/meta but respectable

[hollow spear]

Aoe blind on a 24s cd also kinda cooking

[crimson ember]

Quick question, do we stil use Backstab right after Shadow Dance to get Dance Macabre or no?

[willow knoll]

I don't really get how the apex works

I mean I get it conceptually

[jaunty heath]

no

[hazy breach]

Theres no target count where BP outdamages coup. Softcap kicks in after 8 targets

[crimson ember]

Thanks

[willow knoll]

Is Ancient Arts just per attack? Like does it proc just with that 1 attack?

So if you have 5 shadow tec and full cp it will proc once when you use backstab etc

[honest saddle]

any builder

so backstab or storm

[willow knoll]

trying to think in my head how to maximize that

[swift tinsel]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only up to 3 targets.

[willow knoll]

there we go

ty

[stuck arrow]

Yeah that's kind of what I thought.

Only unless you wanted to save because pack dead or there's prio add spawning or something would you have issues with automating.

But I mean. Unless you're in a well synced M+ - right now I think it's kind of just always correct to send it because who knows what the tank will do - or if they even know the dungeon. 😂 Be different in a few weeks.

[edgy star]

During dance, I see we're specced into dance macabre on a lot of the talent readouts, does that mean it's worth using shadow strike, then backstab, then shuriken storm to generate the combo points?

or is it literally just a talent that is only useful for the first shadowstrike of dance?

[hazy breach]

No

You dont purposefully play around it

You just let it do its thing passively

[real belfry]

I'm assuming it's not going to be too big of a DPS difference if I went with the Crafted Engineer bracers w/ engi embelish as opposed to the Silvermoon Belt with Arcanoweave?

[stuck arrow]

Just send it. Danse better than alternatives passively but playing around it is worse than playing optimally as if you didn't have it.

[swift tinsel]

can Top Gear sim to see the difference

but I can't imagine it would be anything crazy

[willow knoll]

oh wanted to ask, we only worry about apex within the shadow dance window?

looking at that

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[edgy star]

How are you guys tracking shadowy tecniques?

[swift tinsel]

with ShT economy being what it is you don't really get many stacks outside dance to really worry about gaming around

[willow knoll]

literally just looking at the buff icon for me

idk if there's a better way

[real belfry]

Yeah I just like to use my engi profession where I can. It seems like a good idea to just craft them since Engi pieces have only 1 secondary stat. I could use it on bracers for haste and the Scorcher/Boom embelish

[edgy star]

ouch 🙁

[swift tinsel]

haste, mastery, crit, either or

[crimson ember]

I just added it to tracked buffs in the new UI, made it big.

[willow knoll]

I'm also new so I don't kno wif the way I do stuff is the best way tbf

lmao

There might be an eaiser way

Easier~

[edgy star]

Ahh, let me see

Ah you're right it's there

[willow knoll]

Yeah shoulda clarified I made it bigger

lmao

https://tenor.com/view/community-ken-jeong-senor-ben-chang-small-i-cant-see-gif-4463703

[swift tinsel]

that text is crazy small lol

[edgy star]

haha sorry, I didn't mean for the screenshot, but appreciate it ❤️

I meant let me go play on my screen haha 😄

[willow knoll]

Is there a way to filter it out so it only shows shadow tech

On the UI

[hazy breach]

Remove everything else ig?

[swift tinsel]

you can pick and choose which icons it shows

[crimson ember]

Go to the Edit menu, click on the Tracked Buffs bar, Advanced Cooldown Settings, buffs and then just right clikc and remove what you don't want

[weak vector]

How are we all feeling about sub rogue so far now that M0's are out?

[edgy star]

That looks a lot clearer! Thanks! ❤️

[hallow matrix]

Do we play around proccing the apex in aoe with black powder the same as ST with evisc?

[plush roost]

No

Unga bunga

Storm bp bp

[hallow matrix]

okay so just always BP on 6+ CPs in aoe?

[tacit bolt]

3+ targets just braindead spam BP...😏

[hallow matrix]

let the apex proc if it procs?

[plush roost]

Yahp

In aoe our apex is just free damage yay

[tacit bolt]

Dont try to over complicate 😉

[hallow matrix]

sweet thanks

[tacit bolt]

Bliz made sub so easy....its almost mind numbing boring now.....lol

[swift tinsel]

welcome to every spec in midnight

strap in

sub at least has a little bit to play around

[tacit bolt]

Nah...its so easy now anyone can do it. 🤣

[swift tinsel]

that's why we have an apex Moroes command surely

[tacit bolt]

Exactly!

[swift tinsel]

[shadow snow]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[west tide]

does the trinket from voidwork n sims now...

[hallow matrix]

no

[final moat]

HI

what levelling talents to go?

[sullen hare]

Hi

#subtlety-faq

[vale pine]

pins

[final moat]

trickster better?

[sullen hare]

numerically yes

[vale pine]

for leveling, it does not matter

but majority seemed to play trickster

i did too

w/e you level as

try to use dance during downtime

so when you move to or away from a quest

send a dance before mounting up

this gives you some extra supercharger charges, means you burst down mobs more efficiently

[fluid sedge]

Guys do we
Press coup on CD? Or wait till dance window

[lilac stag]

no shame, no regrets

[atomic bobcat]

when the free CP charge is about to pop we have the dark lines pop on the sides.. is there an option to add sound to it also?

[swift tinsel]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1476887002019270761/Midnight_s1_fixed.png

[willow knoll]

One thing I can't wrap my head around is why we strike with full CP if there's no apex. won't it even not proc because there's no combo point stock to dump into the CP meter?

[lilac stag]

Do you understand shaker techniques?

[swift tinsel]

its because you have 5+ shadow techniques after casting a builder

it doesn't check if the attack actually granted combo points

[fleet acorn]

!haste breakpoints

[willow knoll]

So its just the fact that they expend them

[swift tinsel]

you're essentially using your shadow techniques as your resource instead of combo points

[glacial heart]

anyone know how to import these? -- the "new layout name:" field is non clickable, cant tab into it, tried reloading, so maybe im not in the right spot?

[fallow ingot]

Are you guys simming way higher as outlaw vs sub / assa ?

for ST

[swift tinsel]

the checks that apex uses are very yes/no

[civic lava]

My understanding is that outlaw lose a lot more dps from losing uptime than us, but i might be wrong

[swift tinsel]

outlaw often sims higher

[fallow ingot]

its like 33k assa 35k sub and 41k outlaw

I was like

https://tenor.com/view/huh-cat-huh-m4rtin-huh-huh-meme-what-cat-gif-5834484041415217257

[swift tinsel]

because it has less burst

[chrome palm]

this is expacted based on max ilvl sims

[willow knoll]

Oh Im dumb

I'm not level 90 yet

[swift tinsel]

ope

lol

[fallow ingot]

its my current gear as 227 ilvl

[willow knoll]

I didn't read the final apex part

I was like wtf none of this makes sense

[swift tinsel]

yeash that's a pretty important part

[willow knoll]

Lmao

Now it does

[swift tinsel]

that's what makes the whole thing flow

[willow knoll]

No right lmao

[warm marlin]

outlaw literally always sims the highest of the 3, but sims arent the game

[chrome palm]

outlaw according to sims is currently the highest tuned st spec

[willow knoll]

I was like sitting here like

Forever

[fallow ingot]

do you guys have the sims for all the classes ?

[willow knoll]

And it's all because i didn't have the full apex yet

[warm marlin]

sub was dead last of all dps specs in manaforge omega (in st sim) and it was hard broken on multiple fights

[chrome palm]

yeah but

there was a clear reason for that which we all knew about before hand

just not how big of an impact it would end up being, which was a lot

[warm marlin]

yes, but it's not dead last anymore

[chrome palm]

sub was absolute trash on all but 3 fights

[chrome palm]

yeah true

although the raid seems to like heavily favor spread cleave

[warm marlin]

compared with some of the gang and I was only a bit below hunter/devourer at similar ilvl

not a bad place to be

[hazy breach]

Its always way more spread on testing than on live

Because people have no idea how to move them properly on their first try

Just like melee is always horrible

[chrome palm]

like in undermine

in raid testing it was super spread cleave

and then in the actual raid it was still heavily favored for spread cleave

like almost every fight spread cleave just hard mogged everyone else

[alpine wraith]

any na people can confirm pvp cap is now 15k?

[lucid beacon]

yea it is

(I have no idea)

[alpine wraith]

thx man

[narrow comet]

That's hilarious and will not last a single week

[chrome palm]

pretty sure it was the highest tuned st spec in s1 and s2 tww

maybe not s1

[pastel quarry]

the honor cap yeah, I was at 4k EA and then I was able to get more once it rolled over

[lucid jackal]

Outlaw was like fine in S1

[alpine wraith]

nice

[chrome palm]

sim wise at least

[alpine wraith]

it will be important to farm some things

[lucid jackal]

The issue with outlaw is always its like, in theory, 1-5% better, but nobody wants to play it

[chrome palm]

id love to play it but

only class where you lose crests for playing another spec

[alpine wraith]

think it is mostly the dmg profile

more than people wanting or not to play it

same reason if assa is remotely close to sub

people just play that

[shrewd lantern]

Well the general community still pretends rtb is the boogeyman

[chrome palm]

-80 crests if you want to play outlaw with a real weapon

[shrewd lantern]

if you ask general wow players

[chrome palm]

more than damage profile or whatever

its not like damage profilem atters on pure st

patchwerk fight

[lucid jackal]

Damage profile is mega fake tbqh

There are so many tiers where u just dont give a fuck about profile

[chrome palm]

it was very real last raid at least

[bronze turret]

https://giphy.com/gifs/reaction-mood-LpkBAUDg53FI8xLmg1

the outlaw rogue thinks dmg profile is fake, oh ok

[sullen hare]

more than just any outlaw rogue, he's an outlaw guy

[alpine wraith]

dont worry dmg profile matters until real specs get gear

then being good friends with the RL is more important

[lilac stag]

Must be zero dmg amps.

[stuck arrow]

I mean it's not that bad. You lose offhand item level, basically. Not terrible.

Not ideal though, obviously.

Also not just Outlaw there's lots; Devourer/Havoc need different weapons (int vs agi base), survival Hunter (melee), feral, etc.

[chrome palm]

dh weapons have both stats, hunter can crest save their wepaons, ferals also crest saves, etc

you actually gain offhand ilvl because youre forced to use your dagger in off hand, but you still need to spend 80 cr on a main hand

maybe shaman? since they need shields or whatever for ele

[bleak night]

is thunderstrike ward even a thing anymore

it is apparently

im actually kinda surprised by that

[chrome palm]

think they want it for phys dr

[steel crane]

i may have missed it if it was in the pins but who are some sub rogue streamers that i can watch?

[hollow spear]

Shindig

[stuck dune]

I bet zerocool will be around

[astral mountain]

Theoretically what’s the dream comp for rogues to look for in mythic? Like I’ll prolly end up pugging this season. Any class a “oh hell yeah they gotta get the Inv “

[stuck dune]

tumbleweed bro

[alpine wraith]

you want a shaman at least

quite noticeable dmg increase

then it is warr and then it goes lower

like druid is fine

and dh/monk are sameish

[astral mountain]

A lot of people I used to run with aren’t joining me for midnight s1 so it’ll be my first time pugging with rogue so I just don’t know what’s worth looking out for

Is rogue pugging painful? 😂

[hazy breach]

Fwiw shaman is only like 6% now that they fixed a bunch of the sht bugs

Not 8%

[steel crane]

pugging in general is typically painful imo, but thats probly just my experience lma

[astral axle]

only 6%

[dim moat]

another season of Trickster =/

[hazy breach]

Probably gonna continue to be like that until they make deathstalker playable

[alpine wraith]

they might double or triple deathstalker things again beware

dont ask

[hazy breach]

The theme of deathstalker is appealing for sure, but unfortunately the gameplay just isnt there

And since the midnight changes you can end up with marks on mobs you cant hit with literally no way to recover it, so youre just cursed to play without a hero talent

Some of that can be played around for sure, but sometimes it happens anyway

[torpid echo]

Will I ever swap my rings, neck, chest and back? 220 still sims worse xD

[hazy breach]

Enchants OP

But for rings and neck you need like 230+

[torpid echo]

and gems too :p

are u considering nacked 230 or u gem them? 😮

[hazy breach]

If you use the same gems as your 170

But ig with the new ones its probably fine at like 220

It doesnt really matter much though

Getting champ items is gonna be piss easy either way

[torpid echo]

aight! I like seeing the ilvl go up x) thanks for the heads up

[limpid sage]

This happened quite a few times while I was lvling and I was so confused

Maybe if they made Mark reapply on strikes and made the Darkest Night thing a buff like Escalating Blades it’d feel good

[astral mountain]

I’ve always felt like death mark was clunky to play around. It’s like a mini game you have to play that you don’t have full control over

[alpine wraith]

death mark should have always been a button

same as unseen

but blizz is scared forever to add buttons

[narrow shadow]

They should delete Deathstalker

Most cancer thing to play ever

[astral mountain]

I genuinely hope DS doesn’t become the meta pick cause it’s just trickster but more annoying to get the most out of it 😂

[hollow spear]

Maybe, in the expansion after last titan, they'll make it personal instead of on target

[limpid sage]

I still like the idea of marking a target for death though

[alpine wraith]

i still think it should have been something you build towards then can use and pop

instead of the BS we have with 3 stacks

and 3 finishers then weak ass DN

[stuck arrow]

Marked for Death was my favorite talent every. RIP.

[limpid sage]

I just realized DS and Trickster are the inverse of eachother

[limpid sage]

Ya goated in open world content

[alpine wraith]

imagine if we could build up to a giga secret or DN evis/bp

they really hated mfd

put it vs deeper

just to say oh no one uses it and delete it

[limpid sage]

Also impossible to properly balance in M+

[narrow shadow]

Having to cancalaura stuff because of Darkest Night is the most cancer stuff ever

[stuck arrow]

MfD is exactly the type of hyper scaling hard to use talent Blizzard been trying to eliminate. I understand.

But also.

Loved that shit.

[narrow shadow]

They should make Darkest Night cleave and congrats now both hero talents are basically the same

[astral mountain]

Like realistically they should just rework the mark to just be a cooldown that boosts our burst window more. Or have it act as a replacement for rupture on our downtimes. Instead of this weird moving bomb we have to feed into that we don’t have full control over

[alpine wraith]

yea that is why i wanted a 1 use but you can get cdr from finishers big buffer

imagine if death stalkers mark just used our 3 finishers together or something

[astral mountain]

Most basic use they could do. A button you can press that puts death mark on someone every 40 seconds. It is activated by SecTec. It mirrors and snapshots your first SecTec to detonate with more shadowclones

[stuck arrow]

Or death mark that slowly gives you a ramping damage buff, that then explodes after you use a certain number of finishers on them.

Something like that that you can play around that's not.... Whatever this current death stalkers is. 😂

[topaz crow]

have a question, i played today like 5 hours with sub trickster and got 0 coup de grace, even 1 stack didnt get all day, is there like a bug with it or im just too low iq?

[hazy breach]

You probably dont have it specced or something

[topaz crow]

dont know the talent name but only got the finishing move deals more dmg

nvm

forget everything ive said

forget my existence

[arctic heart]

got a trinket (a scroll like ryze one) seems pretty good 2 min, but is not even in the tier list, anyone knows why

void execution mandate its name

[civic lava]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[arctic scroll]

What we craftin homies

[hazy breach]

Because its not available at any reasonable ilvl during S1

Its from a dungeon not in the dungeon pool

[arctic heart]

mate, void execution mandate, i just got it.

with speed.

so only good for m+

m0

[hazy breach]

Ok, how does that change anything i said

[arctic heart]

thats it?

[limpid sage]

It’s with speed dude

[alpine wraith]

big speed

[willow pawn]

We crafting anything this week?

[arctic heart]

anything with speed i guess

[alpine wraith]

you can craft veteran weapon with embellish

or belt with embellish veteran too whatever you choose if you get a m0 wep

but both of those will be replaced quite easily anyway so it is whatever

[robust light]

every time i try to do m+ i remember exactly why i stopped

20 mins applying for a m0

waste of life

[stuck arrow]

Just link 10 KSM achievements.

Or start the group yourself. 😂

[robust light]

nah fuck all that they should just add a queue already like every other game thats ever existed

never got KSM, started in tww season 1, good to know i need to just have 4 friends on retainer to get KSM to get into anything next season

[swift tinsel]

dps has the fun time of competing against six thousand other dps for 3 spots

[stuck arrow]

It is kind of obnoxious to get started, I don't disagree.

[robust light]

its not kind of obnoxious

its prohibitive in a way no other multiplayer game really is lol

[swift tinsel]

I'm a proponent of a queue system for up to +10's

[stuck arrow]

The easiest path honestly is to get KSM the first time on a tank, tbh.

Or to run with your guild.

[robust light]

exactly theres zero reason it shouldnt exist

" bro just play 40 hrs on this spec and role you dont like "

dio you maybe see the problem ?

[swift tinsel]

suggesting starting as tank is a bit of a hm

for first time ksm

[robust light]

its not like im saying get rid of group finder for m+ either its literally just add a queue so people can fucking play

[stuck arrow]

I mean even if you're a shit tank you'll still get into groups pretty much regardless.

And tanking really isn't that hard. Just turn your chat window off and use your rotation.

[robust light]

THATS COOL BRO NO ONE WANTS TO TANK

like not to be a dick

but like ????

[stuck arrow]

Fundamentally I agree with you.

But like my guy. I'm not the one that made the system. I'm just trying to help you navigate it.

[robust light]

yeah your fair

[stuck arrow]

Other thought - atleast for early in the season like right now - Delves are a pretty good alternative.

[robust light]

that much is true

[tribal vortex]

I mean just create a group

You will be ready to go in 5 min

[stuck arrow]

And as a new player - if you can get the level 11 delve achievement it'll help you out in M+ quite a bit, too. Being able to complete delves on your own shows competence.

If you've got nothing to show, why would they take you when there's a bunch of other people that have a bunch of credentials?

Which is why making your own group is good - you'll see all the competition.

It's not fair - or fun - but it's the system we've got.

[robust light]

resume simulator

[swift tinsel]

I don't think I've ever seen someone use a delve achievement to get an m+ group

[robust light]

they dont

[swift tinsel]

they look at keys completed and io

[robust light]

its raider io and nothing else

95% of the time

[tribal vortex]

in low keys it is just random

just play some keys

[robust light]

thats the issue bud

[stuck arrow]

Right but like. Delve achievement & "hey I'm a new player" will get you further than no raider IO and no achievement.

[robust light]

id love to

[tribal vortex]

Create the group

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/minato-naruto-i-dont-know-about-that-one-chief-hand-sings-gif-14766405

[tribal vortex]

I plugged 3.6k previous season

[warm marlin]

i wouldnt wish starting wow and trying to get into keys as a new player with no friends on anyone

i wouldnt stick with it

[swift tinsel]

nope

[robust light]

yea im just gonna pvp

[swift tinsel]

esp if you don't catch the early season wave

[tribal vortex]

At +18 I searched for groups for half an hour . Sometimes it's hard

[robust light]

its literally not worth

[swift tinsel]

when people degen io the first two weeks

[tribal vortex]

In low keys it is really easy

[robust light]

how necessary is m+ for gearing for raid ?

[tribal vortex]

In m0 no one cares about io

[robust light]

i liked raiding in tww s1

[tribal vortex]

especially if you create group

[warm marlin]

if you try to gear purely through raid your ilvl will grow very slowly

[tribal vortex]

it's the same like plugging raids no one will invite you

[warm marlin]

do not recommend

[robust light]

oh so im double fucked lol

dope

pvp this season for sure

[serene matrix]

Do you know if m0 have weekly or daily lookout?

[broken saffron]

are the wow tier list accurate? Archon.gg for example?

[warm marlin]

weekly

[warm marlin]

not really

[broken saffron]

it says sub rouge is pretty good, which isn't what i've heard from anyone

[warm marlin]

sub is pretty good

[robust light]

sub is good and fun rn

[swift tinsel]

I honestly lean on delves for extra gear

guaranteed hero track

[stuck arrow]

Why exactly would it not help?

If you see someone with no mythic+ score, why would you invite them? You don't know if they understand the game or can play their class.

If you can max out delves you in the get minimum have a basic rotation and avoid standing in fire.

[swift tinsel]

gilded crests

[broken saffron]

That's nice! Do you feel like you have alot of down time? or am I doing something wrong perhaps?

Feels like im just standing there betwwen SD

[robust light]

okay at least theres a way for me to be raid ready lol

[warm marlin]

down time is part of the design, outside dance you dont do anything

[robust light]

thank god

[swift tinsel]

because delves aren't typically viewed as content

they're not particularly difficult

[broken saffron]

Interesting. That's good to know

[robust light]

delves are a fucking joke to anyone who has tried to push m+

[swift tinsel]

and also not particularly relevant to m+

it shows you can complete a solo on-rails instance

[warm marlin]

you press dance, get lots of energy and do big damage. dance ends, you press backstab every few seconds and maybe 2-3 eviscerates. then back to dance burst

[robust light]

can someone give me an idea if we have worse single target than tww season1 ?

our aoe feels better

[stuck arrow]

Never said it was a good representation. Or hard.

My point is, it's better than nothing.

[swift tinsel]

not really though

[robust light]

his point is that its irrelevant

[swift tinsel]

its like saying you're a qualified game designer bc you know how to use flags in Minesweeper

[quick marlin]

also delves achievemtn dont show on rio or anything, and the chances of the guy looking at you whispering him the delve achievements are 0

[tribal vortex]

I will say it again , the solution is really simple. Create the group and it will take 5 minutes

[robust light]

exactly they dont gaf

u might as well have linked them a shitty looking transmog

[warm marlin]

if you're really focused on m+ your best bet is to try pushing your key early

[tribal vortex]

I don't understand people not wanting to solve the issue they have

[warm marlin]

and hopefully find people who dont care about tww3 io

[tribal vortex]

Like if you don't want to m+ I get it

but if you want there is a really simple solution

[robust light]

youre like 5 mins behind ive said yep not doin m+, there still talkin about linkin delve achievements to get in groups

so thats what were talkin

[swift tinsel]

no one is arguing against this

[hazy breach]

That also assumes you have the key you want to run

[swift tinsel]

^^

and at the level you want to run it

[warm marlin]

well just for io purposes

[tribal vortex]

We are talking about m0 for starters

but going onwards for m+ also

[stuck arrow]

Yeah just use your own key. Starting when M+ opens. Get ahead of the curve.

[warm marlin]

if you can push your own key fast and early you can maybe get ahead of the curve a bit. if you try to start m+ a month into the season it's gonna be brutal solo

[maiden oar]

delve boss hall of fame title will go crazy trust

people will see it and say u are so cool ocme into my keystone

[swift tinsel]

can lean on Wow Made Easy a bit

[warm marlin]

do u know when that launches grouch

[maiden oar]

this is what i did when i was new

[warm marlin]

is it the 17th

[maiden oar]

i ran all my keys through discords like that

[maiden oar]

yep

[swift tinsel]

there's a few guildmates who have gone that route and ended up forming a bit of a team

[maiden oar]

im trying to decide if i try it on rogue

or if i gear a dk