subtlety

[warm marlin]

you can't have both run as gamecapture, so i set obs to record a window

then it works

[hollow spear]

Genius

[plush roost]

Ye thats the tech, then u can drag things onto your front view as well

[hollow spear]

First stream we'll be watching Ryldd's second screen

[plush roost]

A lil ms paint action mid prog

[hollow spear]

Calling it now

[warm marlin]

i think that didnt work

its just recording the wow window not screen

im too afraid to leak

[plush roost]

Ohhhh

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[plush roost]

Only thing ill leak is my desktop that i keep very clean

Ohno they know i have Osu! And the sims installed!!!

[warm marlin]

nah bro i do my day work on that pc too

probably bad to leak nda stuff

[plush roost]

Yeee

Thats not a good idea

To leak

Haha

[warm marlin]

my internet that has been fine for months is probably going to explode the second prog starts anyway

[hollow spear]

As is tradition

[surreal glacier]

quick question, which energy drink is recommended with sub rogue?

[swift tinsel]

white M

[surreal glacier]

oh okay thanks

[swift tinsel]

any of the sugarfree ones honestly

[surreal glacier]

the store has a 0 sugar redbull (new taste)

i wonder if it works

[warm marlin]

my body is a temple

[swift tinsel]

I've yet to have a zero sugar (or regular) red bull that I've liked

[surreal glacier]

zero sugar redbull is usually poop

white monster is a banger though

[astral axle]

black coffee

[alpine wraith]

white monster goes hard yea

[astral axle]

pour over

[alpine wraith]

i always keep 1 or 2 barrels of coffe

but i dont drink it just my sister likes it a lot

[astral axle]

The taste of good black coffee is one of the last vestiges of grace in this demented hellscape we call modernity

[alpine wraith]

yea the one she makes is very good we get them imported from colombia

just dont ask the price

it is one of her few likes

[astral axle]

orangeman tariffs here in the states have legit made it so much more expensive to get good coffee :(

[alpine wraith]

yea we have a dealer but i looked how it is in the USA and holy shit https://dir.tridge.com/prices/ground-coffee/CO

and look at the 2025 and beyond theb

[surreal glacier]

1 cup of white monster, 4 teaspoons of coffee, 6 cups of redbull

noted noted

then i just stir it together

[lilac stag]

Sugar Free White Peach Redbull

[graceful rock]

Welch’s Grape Ghost Energy

[lean sigil]

anyone know how much racials matter on sub?

[alpine wraith]

speedrunning life i see

[hollow spear]

I'm a cis white male and I suck at sub, maybe that helps

[surreal glacier]

i like the green redbull a lot hopefully it does good dps

[lilac stag]

We don’t tolerate racism here

[alpine wraith]

im latino but live in spain for a while

but think im decent at sub

[hollow spear]

Don't trust Hacha on ui related questions tho

[alpine wraith]

yea dont

[golden hare]

Blood elf is aura

[hollow spear]

His UI was considered a war crime

[alpine wraith]

although the nukening did kill all my was

so now im a basic bitch

havent even made my bars look decent

[hollow spear]

I might be able to watch your stream for more than five minutes then

[alpine wraith]

will do that in the month before raid

[hollow spear]

Your old ui melted my retina in record speeds

No clue how you could play with that

[lilac stag]

Or stats

[hollow spear]

True

Worse than any crack addict

[lilac stag]

Null Stone crafting time

[hollow spear]

Just one more hit of mastery, just one more...

[alpine wraith]

hey this expansion was so sad for mastery

surely next one we rise

just need potent evis instead of potent powder

make it a choice node

[grand wyvern]

idk i feel like choice nodes between aoe and st make the clas worse

[alpine wraith]

bosses when we can get back to 420% mastery again

[alpine wraith]

i actually like to specialize more

this new shit of everyone can do everything just speaks of lazy design

and we dont have buffs so others with bigger number just get more play

[grand wyvern]

cool in theory, but when you have a raid boss with adds, you gonna have to choose

[alpine wraith]

yea and if your raid already has lots of aoe you can go st

[grand wyvern]

and not pad?

[alpine wraith]

now you can try to snipe and it is still good

but once upon a time you had the choice

with how hard bp hits now it is whatever

in midnight even at 2 targets you bp unless it is a DN or coup evis

[formal helm]

that is also sussy gameplay wise, but sure if numbers say that we do that

[formal helm]

100% agree

[alpine wraith]

yea bp is that strong

i mean it kinda has to be now that we dont have rupture

and it did a truckton of dmg

[formal helm]

that is true

was kinda hoping it'd get replaced with smth else but w/e

guess it makes sense to get rid of it?

I just don't like how everyone has everything now kinda

let the specs and classes feel different and have unique kits that you want to take to certain dungeon or raid or w7e

[alpine wraith]

rupture didnt have any additional mechanics same as sod

they deleted all of them

[formal helm]

yeah

[surreal glacier]

GAMERS

i feel like im always ALMOST out of energy

and then i have dance

surely thats normal

also i have a vanish question

i do opener

i use my second dance

do i use my vanish to pop a shadowstrike right before dance comes back up? while low on energy then? and so on ON cd

[vale pine]

its normal that you are out of energy

thats by design

during dance, you shouldn't be

for vanish

[lilac stag]

They’re used to assa and endless energy

[vale pine]

vanish for strike

[surreal glacier]

yep

[surreal glacier]

while in downtime from dance yes?

[vale pine]

yes

just use it

its not that big in terms of dps impact

[surreal glacier]

should i use vanish before i use my 2nd dance or after it ends

[lilac stag]

Strike Evis vanish strike sblades dance Sectech

[surreal glacier]

to get it quicker on cd

[vale pine]

^ this

also possible

[surreal glacier]

whoa advanced opener

[lilac stag]

Vanish in keys better defensive

[surreal glacier]

i was actually doing that just now on dummy but idk if it was a bad idea

thanks

thats perfect for getting it off cd quicker

thanks gamer

[surreal glacier]

do you then save it for defense and not use in dps rotation at all? assuming youre doing a high key?

[lilac stag]

just kinda use it when targeted

defensives are good

[surreal glacier]

i mean i love faint

i still hate that it costs me energy

but its cool

[tulip light]

was warning signs always used in m+ build as trickster or did i miss anything?

[swift tinsel]

feint is high key a very good defensive button

low cost, low cd

[vale pine]

yes

[hollow spear]

Feint's energy cost is kind of a non issue imo

[red flame]

In Elusiveness Feint we trust

[hollow spear]

Outside of cooldowns, you aren't doing damage anyway

[surreal glacier]

its not BUUUUT it would be cool if it didnt cost anything either

[hollow spear]

Inside of cooldowns you have enough energy

[surreal glacier]

ALSO MAKE IT OFF GCD

[hollow spear]

It is

[surreal glacier]

[swift tinsel]

I'm honestly pretty fine with the energy cost

[surreal glacier]

wait wtf was it always

[hollow spear]

They changed that during tww

[swift tinsel]

with how much it can negate

[surreal glacier]

ah i didnt play tww

thats fucking epic

[warm marlin]

its been offgcd since start of tww2 or something

[hollow spear]

You can mitigate so much damage

[red flame]

Real af

[swift tinsel]

will probs notice more that we aren't vers stacking anymore

[hollow spear]

I used feint much more often the second I convinced myself that pressing backstab is ass

And doesn't do damage anyway

That's even more true without cdr

Feint = great button

[warm marlin]

dimmy prog damage taken

[hollow spear]

Chad rogue vs virgin priest

Was your dk intentionally standing in stuff?

[vale tusk]

is sub looking the bes t out of rogue specs ive heard a few people say its looking good pick for m+ or are they all liars

[warm marlin]

I dont think they were amsing quake

[alpine wraith]

sub is decent for m+ we do have cool things

like not dying

[warm marlin]

but he also got munched for 50M from devour

[alpine wraith]

and do damage as a melee damage dealer

if they look for something else

we dog

[swift tinsel]

sub will be fine ye, will likely be the typical non-fotm dps experience

best to find a good show to watch while in lfg purgatory

[alpine wraith]

i have become a leader instead

i used to spam 1 dung

but now i just do whatever as long as it is fast

i become the classist

invite people that buff me

[swift tinsel]

yeah I usually just run my own keys 10-12 for vault and pick a shaman+warrior and w/e else lol

try and speedrun for vault if I'm not running guild keys for fun

[autumn flame]

Bp at 3 targets right?

[steady sail]

In M+ build if you get to 80 seconds after your first shadowblades is it worth sending a non-shadow dance sectech and then having it off CD 10 seconds into shadowblades to use with your second dance?
All the guides say to hold for blades but I can't see what you'd lose if you press it off cd and still get 1 in blades unless you have <20 second CD and could get 2? Sorry if I've missed a post somewhere

[alpine wraith]

2 targets unless coup or DN are ready

[alpine wraith]

you have to wait to get 2 dances anyway

so you end up using blades at like 1 minute 4x seconds anyway

better to hold blades like 6-7 secs

than losing a whole dance+sectech

in future dances it kinda fixes itself a bit more

and later you do send a natty sec tech

[swift tinsel]

do wowhead/iv guides switch over with early access or full release?

[alpine wraith]

i did a general one but not until i get to lvl 90 im making another

then on release the full one

thankfully tier set does not change anything on gameplauy

[swift tinsel]

it can a wee bit

if you decide to move 2nd dance in blades to last part of blades vs right after first

but thats like itty bitty change

[surreal glacier]

i am having same issues on sub like i did on assa rogue

pull boss
do opener
put my poison on daggers
do my rotation

[alpine wraith]

that was already a funny thing you could do

depending on how encounter was pot in the middle of first dance

to snapshot 2 dances

and flag trink too

but idk

[steady sail]

I think I'm missing something there, I've tried to draw it out but can't see why you'd need to hold shadowblades if you don't send a shadowdance at 80 seconds because you'd have 1 charge and 10s pending on the second charge which would come up in time to have full coverage of the second blades window? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious!

[fiery fog]

btw this macro
#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Shuriken Storm

can it be used as the default dance button or are the situations where i dont want to cast this together in st deathstalker?

[alpine wraith]

you lose more by doing that because you miss a secret tech not much more just numbers thing

[lilac stag]

Don’t play deathstalker. No need for macro.

[fiery fog]

but the guide says deathstalker is better for raid/st

[lilac stag]

It’s not

[alpine wraith]

sometimes you have DN up and dance+evis instead

but you can also hold on 1 mark

[lilac stag]

Prepatch is outdated. None of us care about it.

[alpine wraith]

and look to be empty on cp to use dance+storm

[lilac stag]

Sim your gear and ST trickster. They’ll be even

We’ve had tuning and bug fixes every week

[fiery fog]

i have been gone for so long i still have WW S1 gear

[lilac stag]

Yeah well

[alpine wraith]

dont worry the new event gives champion gear

you can cata

for 4 set

[lilac stag]

Just quit til Thursday

oh yeah. Do the event

[alpine wraith]

and craft a weapon

[fiery fog]

so rn trickster is just better overall

[lilac stag]

Then quit

[alpine wraith]

yea trickster kinda is less annoying too

[lilac stag]

If deathstalker is ever better, reroll

[fiery fog]

whats so bad about it

[lilac stag]

Have fun with the immovable mark

[fiery fog]

ah yeah

was fun in s1

not

[alpine wraith]

it is just annoying to play not much

[lilac stag]

Oh it’s 100 times worse

[fiery fog]

in a pure st fight it doesnt matter ig

[alpine wraith]

and now you cant move mark

[lilac stag]

Until the boss goes immune

[fiery fog]

and the mark expires

we love to see it

trickster only needs the coup/bp macro ig

[alpine wraith]

yea just have a button for bp too just in case

sometimes you want to hold coup for dance

[fiery fog]

e.g. i have coup ready but im not in dance rn

[alpine wraith]

you wait at most like 3-4 secs

otherwise you send

[fiery fog]

alright ty

[alpine wraith]

just build to full and sit

[full bobcat]

is it worth holding dance for the last part of blades or just send right the first one ends?

[fiery fog]

the worst part of getting back to wow

figuring out all of your keybinds again

[alpine wraith]

you should have 2 dances for blades

[full bobcat]

yea but dance + sectec I mean, sorry

[alpine wraith]

maybe in midnight when blades lasts 20 secs and you have only 16 secs of dance

but you could also dance three times in a row

[fiery fog]

btw what event were you talking about

[alpine wraith]

it becomes a bit weird sims will say

[alpine wraith]

the preexpansion event

in arathi highlands

[fiery fog]

the catch up event?

[alpine wraith]

no idea about catch up

[swift tinsel]

arathi or twilight highlands

[alpine wraith]

oh actually

yea twilight highlands

i made a fusion

[swift tinsel]

wasn't there some event in arathi tho

[alpine wraith]

the war in bfa

[swift tinsel]

idk I vaguely remember a quest telling me to go there but I never did lol

[alpine wraith]

warfront thing

oh and also a story quest

[swift tinsel]

ye I remember that one

oh yeah must have been the story quest or something

[alpine wraith]

i completely ignored it

[swift tinsel]

reminds me I need to finish farming the heroic darkshore transmog set

[alpine wraith]

same as the blue cucks story in last expac

and others

[fiery fog]

where do i start this quest/event xd

[alpine wraith]

you get a popup on logging in

if you ignored i dont remember where it begins

[fiery fog]

i ignored it

[steady sail]

There is an orb by Breem (flight point in Dornogal)

[swift tinsel]

isn't that for the void elf dh quest

[loud wharf]

Think the quest starts by sussing out dudes in Stormwind/Org no?

[bleak night]

the cult within quest just automatically triggers when you log in

and if you delete it it'll just appear again next login

[fiery fog]

ah its the cult within

alright then im doing that for now
ty guys

[fiery fog]

btw with trickster i want to start dance with 6+ cp and immideately use sectec right?

so from stealth i shadowstrike, dance + sectec and continue normaly

[alpine wraith]

you can do either strike evis into dance

or strike into dance

it is almost the same

[fiery fog]

but ideally it would be strike dance sectec?

[alpine wraith]

they are almost the same as in does not matter what you do

[lilac stag]

Strike Evis Vanish Strike blades, dance Sectech

Or just strike blades dance Sectech

[buoyant iron]

have a question guys during shadow dance i allways shadowstrike? to generate cb? on aoe

[swift tinsel]

storm at 3+ in dance

[lilac stag]

The what?

[swift tinsel]

the heroic darkshore warfront has a unique transmog appearance

[sullen hare]

the heroic darkshore warfront *

[swift tinsel]

but you need to group for it

iirc you need to have a raid group or something, can't do it solo

[lilac stag]

Like the old bfa shit?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[sullen hare]

the alliance set is kinda doodoo but the horde one cooks

[swift tinsel]

the horde one looks neat

[lilac stag]

hmm I think I have that

Crap have to look

[swift tinsel]

I did very, very few warfronts when it was current

[keen dome]

There's people on AD running those constantly, it's great. Lotta people want the nice outfits

[sullen hare]

AD?

[swift tinsel]

I think I came across a reddit thread or discord that groups for it regularly

but just haven't yet

[sullen hare]

there's folks in proudmoore trade chat making groups all the time

[hollow spear]

Asocial douchebags

[keen dome]

Argent Dawn, the main RP realm in EU and one of the most populated realms because I post about cats in trade all day

[hollow spear]

Is that considered rp?

[keen dome]

Well I hope so

[sullen hare]

oh, ok so it's like the EU moonguard

[hollow spear]

No clue, I never participated in rp really

I rp as braindead dps player two times a week during mythic progress

Doesn't take much though, I seem to be a natural at that

[keen dome]

We're better than moonguard, though

[hollow spear]

The gauntlet has been thrown

[keen dome]

They don't have the king of idling

[sullen hare]

I don't play on rp realms so there's not much for me to weigh in about

proudmoore used to have a paladin that was online like 20 hours of the day

[keen dome]

Damn. A challenger.

And it's a Paladin??

Highlander rules

[sullen hare]

he hasn't logged on for years though so you can have the crown

[keen dome]

I work fast

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/cats-gif-21054892

[sullen hare]

the public is still waiting for the butthole cut

[quiet sand]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[long sun]

yo if i have sectec and darkest night up what takes priority, am i hitting evis or sectec

[short radish]

#subtlety message

eleem replies a few bits down

[wide wigeon]

we up boys

[alpine wraith]

oh boi

[limpid sage]

tomato guy

[hollow spear]

I consider him rather informed

Compared to others

[wide wigeon]

He's researching the logs while he's making it based on key levels, damage done relative to others. I'd consider him one of the top players when it comes to also reviewing logs based on his world ranking/previous raid lead role of <honestly>

Certain things to take into account though:
-players playing beta
-players having access to some of the highest keys in beta

[hazy breach]

Sub is good

Just need to play with a shaman

[prime raft]

what plater profile are yall using now

[hazy breach]

None

Platynator

[swift tinsel]

Platynator better

Frankensteined Jundies profile

[hazy breach]

But also nameplates doesnt matter that much for sub specifically

[swift tinsel]

I like it for how easy it is to set non-target and non-casting transparency

[alpine wraith]

it matters so you can cheapshot the mothertruckers

[swift tinsel]

And also nameplate scaling for interruptible casts

[alpine wraith]

let them know what a rogue is

[warm marlin]

rogue poisons no longer secret auras

[short radish]

damn

the guy asking about it earlier

can finally get it again

[prime raft]

i dont only play sub i play fury warr UHDK FDK Feral druid etc

[hazy breach]

So i can blacklist them again

[swift tinsel]

I can hear the healers rejoicing

[hazy breach]

Tbf Amp poison as assa does have some gameplay implications

You can swap to a target with higher amp stacks and envenom it

Since spatter isnt tied to mutilate

[warm marlin]

well i was mainly excited as i assume itll be easier to make poison reminder auras

[hazy breach]

Oh yeah thats true

Or is it

Isnt it just the debuffs from them?

But then instant wouldnt be on the list

[swift tinsel]

@lilac stag need some minor tweaks but I think its mostly there

wangbar background thing is a bit odd to size at times

[warm marlin]

seems like the buffs themselves

[lilac stag]

I just went full arc. No resource addon

[swift tinsel]

I'm too For the People pilled

[warm marlin]

its also under the long term self buffs area

[swift tinsel]

ye I read it as showing our poison buff vs nameplate/target debuff

[supple pawn]

if i enjoyed sub in TWW, will i enjoy it now?

not really happy for the prune for most specs u.u

[hazy breach]

Depends on why you enjoyed it

If you enjoyed it because of the complexity then probably no

[lilac stag]

if you enjoy purple, dances and burst dmg. It’s a good vibe

[supple pawn]

this

i mainly played deathstalker

[hazy breach]

My condelences

[supple pawn]

its upsetting to see a lot of classes just. unable to appeal on that side

[supple pawn]

oh? whats wrong with it

[lilac stag]

why are all these deathstalker players coming out of the woodwork?

[supple pawn]

a big part also is just i like having a fair bit of buttons to press

[lilac stag]

Time for a new game

[supple pawn]

shadow priest, frost mage, DK thankfully have enough buttons

ive found others... lacking

[lilac stag]

Dk?

[hazy breach]

I mean its just jank and got some very unfun ways to optimize it

[frail kindle]

bro dk literally feels like just press what lights up right now

[lilac stag]

to each their own

[bleak night]

unholy is kinda fun

just bc you can walk out of melee for 30 seconds at a time

[supple pawn]

blood boil, heart strike, death strike, dnd, marrowrend
obliterate, howling blast, empower rune weapon, frost strike
festering strike, putrefy, death coil, scourge strike

its more than 2 buttons

[loud wharf]

Alrighty, I may be blind. But who has the juiced UI that I can rip? Where can I find the info I am not seeing it in pins.

[supple pawn]

i liked fire mage before prepatch despite it being a relatively simple spec

but it just has

no buttons now

[lilac stag]

Shiv, Dance, blades, strike, backstab, black powder, storm, Sectech, evicerate, goremaws

Math checks. 2 buttons

[supple pawn]

how many do you use rotationally tho

is what im asking

[hazy breach]

Everything besides goremaw and shiv

[lilac stag]

We’re gonna get shiv in the rotation. I believe.

Goremaws tier s2

[supple pawn]

so sectech, strike, backstab, eviscerate

[chrome palm]

strike and backstab are the same button come on

[supple pawn]

4 buttons

3 buttons

[chrome palm]

its on the same keybind

dance its arguable because you macro it into everything

[lilac stag]

If buttons make you happy move along and play the dredge at is UH

[supple pawn]

tbf im not that happy with my main either (survival)

[lilac stag]

No one gonna judge

Grass always greener

[supple pawn]

if i may ask

why does sub appeal to you

not to be rude. i want to understand

[lilac stag]

Short burst windows. Manages cds

Rewarded for timing correctly

[supple pawn]

im not exactly sure what specifically i enjoy about different specs. i cant describe i mean

i really wish i could. would make finding an alt easier u.u

[lilac stag]

well if you don’t know what you find fun that’s kinda a you problem

[supple pawn]

i know what i find fun, but idk how to put into words

[lilac stag]

Try ChatGPT

[supple pawn]

i say i like complexity, but frostfire fire isnt complex and i enjoyed that, as well as frost dk

i say i like buttons, but fire doesnt have many buttons either

[fallow nimbus]

Outlaw is too spammy or maybe was, assa has dot management and sub is go with the flow. Relaxing outside cds and fire during

[supple pawn]

(before prepatch, i dont really vibe with fire currently)

[lilac stag]

So you like the idea of buttons to see your action bars full but don’t actually care about the buttons

[fallow nimbus]

Macroes

[supple pawn]

more like, i like when my fingers actually move

[lilac stag]

we have macros that’s for sure

[supple pawn]

i enjoyed WW and DH specs which have 4+ rotationals

[fallow nimbus]

Then place the buttons far away

[lilac stag]

Or duplicate abilities and change which one you press

[supple pawn]

yknow

actually

that might ironically do it

lemme try

[fallow nimbus]

As melee and bm hunters we have buttons the others don't have

[lilac stag]

it’s called space bar

[supple pawn]

lmao

[fallow nimbus]

And strafe left/right

[lilac stag]

Shimmy shimmy

[fallow nimbus]

The melee dance

[supple pawn]

i mean, i guess thats true

hits differennt tho

[supple pawn]

trying this, will report the results

[chrome palm]

Hard casting isn’t even a thing anymore every caster is running around at 30 mph spamming instant casts

[lilac stag]

good luck !

[wheat elk]

are there any actual character-based achievements out there anymore? was gonna switch over to a diffeent race ( dont wanna do race change)

[supple pawn]

unironically feels a lot better ty for the recommendation

[lilac stag]

Sweet

We’re supportive problem solvers here

[supple pawn]

i think i have some sort of autism

[lilac stag]

nah

Just busy hands

there’s a reason older melee players jump so much between casts.

[supple pawn]

i feel like the best way to apply this would be for spells that have a conditional/proc attached to them

i.e. if i hav e proc i hit 1, if i dont have proc but use the spell anyways i press 2

[supple pawn]

ohhhh, tbf i do the same lmao 😭

just feels boring when doing rotation now tho

this helps a lot tho hurray

[short radish]

just bind detection (rogue spell that does nothing except waste a gcd)

[lilac stag]

I’m pretty sure we all will see another button or two next season. They just stripped EVERY spec back.

[chrome palm]

I mean

Comparing sub to outlaw, ww, spriest, etc it definitely has the least buttons from everything I’ve tried and it’s not even close

[supple pawn]

chat is this true

[lilac stag]

It also falls dead middle of rotational opener apparently according to @swift tinsel research

outlaw is just reactionary with buttons that all feel very similar

but if you have fun with it awesome

[swift tinsel]

mode is 6 and we're at 5

most openers are pretty braindead now

[hazy breach]

Ye im sure that if they had more time to work on sub they surely wouldve done something to make goremaw less shit

[swift tinsel]

fdk is 3 button presses

[warm marlin]

[hazy breach]

[lilac stag]

I will cope that they had plans for it but didn’t get to it. Otherwise it’s been another delete.

[swift tinsel]

just didn't have time to do it all of tww

too busy with other sub things

[lilac stag]

We had enough buttons in TWW

[chrome palm]

they did not have any plans for sub bro

[hazy breach]

I mean im convinced they arent happy with it

But they probably didnt think it was worth the effort to fix it

[swift tinsel]

what better time than not during a spec tree rework

[warm marlin]

it will be 15.0 and goremaw will be sitting there an untouched relic

[lilac stag]

They did. Just no one liked them. Let’s not act like they just did nothing

[warm marlin]

still seeing more play than deathstalker

[chrome palm]

the initial changes to sub definitely read more like making sub comply with the midnight doctrine of class design in the worst way imaginable than a thought out rework

[short radish]

yeah they probably h ad a bu nch of other plans for sub, but after the first iteration of sub haste they had to throw some of it in the bin

[supple pawn]

reactionary stuff is nice

[lilac stag]

they actually responded to complaints. Have all talents actually working. Have fixed bugs. This for all general purposes of a new expansion is some of the most attention this spec has gotten

[short radish]

also true

[warm marlin]

I just don't understand how they explicitly stated they wanted cooldown flexibility to remain a defining aspect of the spec

[short radish]

we take what we can get

[supple pawn]

pack leader still doesnt press bombs and DW is still shit

[warm marlin]

and then just left sectec like this

[short radish]

which should be the bare minimum

[supple pawn]

:cryge:

[lilac stag]

if you like it or not I honestly don’t care

[swift tinsel]

this part bothers me probably the most out of everything that changed

because it is really annoying

[lilac stag]

We have been so far below minimum since WoD

[warm marlin]

I would accept it if they said they wanted to get rid of the cooldown flexibility because it is genuinely very op

[swift tinsel]

and only introduces bad mechanics within the spec

[warm marlin]

but they said they wanted to keep it then didnt fix it

idk

[swift tinsel]

I just don't really see the vision for a hasted cd on it

after they scrapped hasted dance

and ig even when that part still existed

[lilac stag]

Perhaps you’re not understanding their def of flexibility? Or desiring more than what they are offering? You don’t have to cd on cd. You can hold Sectech and dance

but that’s trying to decipher what they want

[warm marlin]

well you can do that even without having flexibility

you just get sad

but right now we hold blades to line it up because losing any time on sectec cdr is horrid

that isnt flexible to me

[hazy breach]

What i think happened is that they didnt intend to do much besides the initial rework, and when it was received very poorly (as it shouldve) they had to re-assign some manpower to "fix" it, and when they felt like it was "fixed" enough they put those people back on whatever they were intending to do with it

[hazy breach]

But im just making shit up and guessing

[swift tinsel]

like it almost feels like they forgot to iterate on sectech after that initial November big fix build

[lilac stag]

Also your views are pretty much HoF raid and that’s it. You’re the minority of the minority. If the masses actual play the spec, it probably hits the flexibility bliz wanted where they won’t know they’re missing x dps

[warm marlin]

until they get told to only press dance when sectec is ready

and their cds are still hard structured around it

[short radish]

all they needed to do was tie sectech to dance

and make it only castable in dance

[lilac stag]

And then it’s zero tracking of anything on the spec

[swift tinsel]

sounds accessible to me

ope

[short radish]

^

sounds flexibile to me

[lilac stag]

you really want full ret?

[short radish]

ret is mongo bongo press off cd

this allows some flexibility in holding a dance

[lilac stag]

what do you think Sectech every dance is?

[swift tinsel]

its more dance every sectech

[lilac stag]

When it’s 20 second with 6-8 gcds

[swift tinsel]

that ability has taken over the prio of the whole spec

[short radish]

yeah but currently we press sectech off cd. if it's tied to dance than as long as you don't lose any casts, you can delay your dance by a few seconds

and it shouldnt matter

[warm marlin]

does our brother dagger spec play one hero tree in all content for those who keep up

do i need to setup tracking of both these trees

[lilac stag]

Fatebound

[warm marlin]

excellent down with deathstalker

[lilac stag]

no one wants DS

[hazy breach]

Definitely seems like fatebound is the goto

[swift tinsel]

nope no tracking

[hazy breach]

But deathstalker might be playable in keys

[warm marlin]

this guy said assa in keys

[plush roost]

Theres no encounter where DS is the play im psure

MAYBE

[chrome palm]

Wait until the 2nd boss in nexus point perfect parries your mark

[lilac stag]

no one is playing assa in keys

[plush roost]

Chimerian

[warm marlin]

cue lizard gif with crimson tempest

[chrome palm]

And you gotta relog mid key

[plush roost]

or w.e the midraid is

[chrome palm]

Chimaerus?

[warm marlin]

https://tenor.com/view/lizard-gif-4133321797479779339

[lilac stag]

[warm marlin]

(hes pushing CT)

[chrome palm]

What is the leveling spec

Still outlaw?

[warm marlin]

sub bro wym

[lilac stag]

sub

[chrome palm]

I have 65% move speed passively as outlaw though

[warm marlin]

no more cdr and gigastrike

[lilac stag]

Do you even rogue?

[warm marlin]

outlaw no crackshot

[chrome palm]

My character does the run animation without sprint as outlaw

[warm marlin]

and no uhuh

[chrome palm]

Hm

[warm marlin]

what u gonna do

[supple pawn]

this unironically helps so much. thank you scath

[chrome palm]

Blade rush idk

[supple pawn]

i can enjoy my main more

[warm marlin]

fly up to a quest mob and hit sinister 4 times in a row

gg

[lilac stag]

Welcome

[supple pawn]

hopefully it makes sub feel better

[chrome palm]

Blade rush is kinda decent burst tho

[lilac stag]

Just put on 2 null stones and zoom around as sub

[chrome palm]

I’m jus thinking about the quad grapple

[lilac stag]

unless you need 18 buttons for leveling

[supple pawn]

null stone?

[chrome palm]

If you chain pull mobs for a quest sub is still bad though

[lilac stag]

You group and fire off projector

[warm marlin]

with 20s dance?

surely not

[lilac stag]

Move along

[warm marlin]

and tfd

[lilac stag]

He just wants to hate sub. Let em

go enjoy outlaw

Be free

[warm marlin]

i levelled in tww as outlaw for all my rogues

[swift tinsel]

yeah I can't really see a world where sub doesn't thanos the leveling experience

[warm marlin]

it was sick

[lilac stag]

Outlaw was fun in remix

[hazy breach]

But now you get to used atleast 2x as many dances as sub

Which is like 2x damage

[supple pawn]

who is hating on sub?

[swift tinsel]

can step/teleport step all over gods green earth

and zoom in stealth

group up sectech bp nuke

[chrome palm]

Ok but you one shot the mob anyways

[supple pawn]

honestly for all i rant on about fire. i wish i could enjoy it

[swift tinsel]

solo elites

[chrome palm]

And you’re out of dance already

[lilac stag]

Messer been having rosey eyes for outlaw since the start of beta. Just needs to commit tbh.

[chrome palm]

Bis for bench

I’m sure my guild would be really happy if I crafted a sword

[lilac stag]

highest tuned rogue spec

[astral axle]

I like rogue

[lilac stag]

just need to be good at it

[warm marlin]

it's ok we have @lucid jackal to craft a sword for us

as was written in our contract

[chrome palm]

He’s doing that right

Shindig about to get crazy play time

[fossil forge]

Outlaw gaming

[lucid jackal]

what if thats my plan

so I can play slay the spire 2, deadlock and poe

[lilac stag]

CN vibes this tier.

unleash the gunslinger

[maiden oar]

totemic enhance burst window is very fun imo

[warm marlin]

yes its genius

[astral axle]

Guys guys listen….. it is 2026 we don’t have to say “s-word” any more we can just say “shit”…….

[hazy breach]

Bro cant wait for co-op slay the spire

That shit is gonna go so hard

[chrome palm]

Sub is family friendly 🥰

[hazy breach]

[short radish]

i thought the s-word was spl*ts

[swift tinsel]

Spriority damage

[lilac stag]

Mythicc Spl*ts

[short radish]

[lilac stag]

@short radish did you go back and research the condom, the ecstasy and prophets ass?

[warm marlin]

we can all lead a great rebellion and craft swords

[maiden oar]

i craft axe its a cooler type of weapon

scarier looking

[supple pawn]

how often is the burst/what about other builds/ rest of rotation? do you get many buttons to press

actually does anyone just have recommendations for specs with 4+ buttons

[short radish]

not yet. that's my lunch time reading

[supple pawn]

i main survival hunter, but am considering the following for alts

Rogue (need to look into further)
DK
Mage (frost, maybe fire)
Priest (shadow, holy)

[maiden oar]

burst is 60s
other hero talent mashes 1 button for its burst and is overall less interactive
rest of rotation is still interesting imo some thought goes into spending maelstrom for cdr if u reach the bottom of your apl
buttons are stormstrike/lava lash/lightning bolt/chain lightning/crash lightning/voltaic blaze/sundering for 30s or less cd

[supple pawn]

i would consider dh if not for the fact they're restricted to elves

[maiden oar]

doom winds and surging totem for 1min cd

[warm marlin]

@chrome palm can you ss your assa cdm

i dont play this shit

[supple pawn]

because i do enjoy dh gameplay wise

[warm marlin]

want to see how u set it up

[maiden oar]

stormbringer enhance is much less interesting imo

[supple pawn]

i remmeber in s2 df just pressing stormstrike for 80% of the rotation

god

[maiden oar]

like 1/2 less buttons if u count surging totem and in cds u spam stormstrike

[supple pawn]

fuck that shit

[maiden oar]

but totemic goes insane

i love totemic

[supple pawn]

i'll checkk it out! i was quite turned off by the rsham changes which upsets me

hopefully ele is alright too

[maiden oar]

also ww maybe

could go either way

[maiden oar]

hehe

[chrome palm]

nothing to track

[supple pawn]

oh! i did enjoy this

[maiden oar]

yeah inertia havoc is cool but devourer is gonna be the spec almost assuredly

[supple pawn]

the main issue with monk is im worried about not enjoying MW or BM

tho, bm id probably enjoy because

buttons

[warm marlin]

hmm alright

i was wondering if you track coins and other stuff

[maiden oar]

i think mw has buttons too but idk i am not a healer guy

[chrome palm]

yeah i was tracking coins in s3

[warm marlin]

envenom bar

[chrome palm]

because there was nothing to track

and i felt naked

[supple pawn]

my main issue with mw ironically is fistweaving

lmao

[maiden oar]

i heard u dont do that rn

[supple pawn]

oh goodie!

[maiden oar]

but idk if thats still true

[warm marlin]

I will have an envenom bar because i need something in the place of my dance bar

and it will be green instead

very cool

[chrome palm]

need green bar

[warm marlin]

outlaw will have a yellow bar for bf ig

[chrome palm]

the main reason i wanted envenom chains back is so my green bar did something

i went with a rose bar for bf

[warm marlin]

oh ya ig it cant be yellow thats energy

rose is perhaps more accurate

[chrome palm]

its like the color of the icon

[warm marlin]

ye

[chrome palm]

yellow is when my cp is at 5 for outlaw

[warm marlin]

does the arc cp bar track supercharger when you dont have cp

my goat awang said he could probably add it for me

[chrome palm]

yes its dimmed

[warm marlin]

in wangbar

[chrome palm]

in arc

you can adjust it

[maiden oar]

arcui maybe worth learning...

[swift tinsel]

its nice

and you can drag items/spells to track the auras of

[chrome palm]

this is what it looks like

[swift tinsel]

can do energy and cp now too

oh nice like half alpha

[warm marlin]

ok ye similar to what we had before

im sure awang will give me what i desire

[swift tinsel]

please share with the class

[chrome palm]

wang bar the combo point border is inset 1 px

it makes me insane

[swift tinsel]

yeah the border/background thing is a bit annoying

[maiden oar]

can you anchor player target frame to arcui

[chrome palm]

and also i cant change the background opacity

[chrome palm]

i dont think so

[swift tinsel]

this bothers me so much lol

[maiden oar]

[chrome palm]

mostly tho i just want to have as few addons as possible

[swift tinsel]

even if you set the background opacity to zero it still appears

like this is it at zero

[lilac stag]

arc is it until WA possibly gets a fork

[bleak night]

i need to start looking at arcui

[lilac stag]

just have to sit down with it and start messing with it

[bleak night]

i tried it at the start of prepatch and it was annoying + the feature i wanted it for was bugged

[short radish]

might have to go back to arc instead of wangbar if it has multiple conditions for color change at cp count

[bleak night]

so i just went to better cooldown manager

[short radish]

wangbar only has one 🙁

[bleak night]

but arcui is way more customizable

[swift tinsel]

ye it was buggy for a good while but now it seems to work considerably better

[olive canyon]

is elvui no longer supported or problematic in some way to where arcui seems to be being used more?

[swift tinsel]

arc was released first so people have had more time to use it

[bleak night]

ngl i havent even looked at elvui since it got updated

[lilac stag]

This is where I’ve got mine at

[short radish]

i never used elvui and dont think i ever will

[bleak night]

i found replacements for everything i wanted and just have no reason to go back

[chrome palm]

yeah its nice for outlaw

[lilac stag]

That’s all arc

[swift tinsel]

I ditched elvui in DF I think

[short radish]

elvui breaking on patch day is a story i've heard too many times

and cbf dealing

[chrome palm]

i dont like the windows 8 look of elvui

[lilac stag]

I don’t like having a shit ton of stuff I’ll never use loaded and breaking every patch.

very
Windows
Indeed

[tepid trellis]

just be EU and not have to deal with it

[lilac stag]

nah. Then I’d have to deal with free health care, public transportation and healthier food options.

[chrome palm]

no buccees tho

[bleak night]

gross

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/yits-yankee-in-the-south-willl-grace-youtube-buccees-gif-11279988027499349220

[olive canyon]

how do you add the shadowdance bar below the resources section

[lilac stag]

create a cooldown bar and move it

[uneven scarab]

Yeah but then i have to buy a license to own a tv

[maiden oar]

@chrome palm how many addons are you using in total

i might ditch atrocity and make my own thing w arcui

[bleak night]

just stab the tv license inspector

[warm marlin]

msuf/arc/platy/mas/wangbar (hides my bars)

actually not that many addons

not bad

[swift tinsel]

uuf/arc/platy/will's

[warm marlin]

ultimate mouse cursor for gcd and because im old ig

[swift tinsel]

wang

[warm marlin]

oh ya and wangbar ofc

[bleak night]

wtf is will's

[swift tinsel]

it messes with some of the cdm overlays

so they don't have the half-alpha yellow duration swipe

which looks like ass

[bleak night]

oh interesting

i'll have to look at that

[swift tinsel]

just called Will's CDM

[astral axle]

very demure very mindful (actually looks very good)

[keen iron]

Hi Im new sub, when do I use thea?? With Dance or

[swift tinsel]

we don't use tea

[austere spear]

It auto uses it for you

otherwise ignore

[swift tinsel]

we don't spec tea

[austere spear]

oh well yeah that too

[bleak night]

i spec tea for running old content

[swift tinsel]

when we get our 3rd capstone back we'll have cold blooded killer, forced induction and deeper strategem

[bleak night]

[austere spear]

true and real however i wont be sub s1 planning on sin

[bleak night]

https://klipy.com/gifs/get-out-43

[chrome palm]

wym planning on sin

you change 1 ring now youre a sub rogue

[austere spear]

assa

lmaoo true still probably gonna play mainly assa

[chrome palm]

im still using quite a few i have a bunch of small ones like uiscale or advancedinterfaceoptions

[warm marlin]

aio is good too

leatrix does some stuff i think

[chrome palm]

yeah i used leatrix for a while

i think theres a new one called plumber that has a lot of qol stuff like that

[swift tinsel]

I've heard a lot of very good things about plumber and was thinking about adding it ngl

[bleak night]

i started using plumber in prepatch

[frail bone]

plumber is a memory heavy tool though, in comparison to aio and leartrix

[chrome palm]

it was really buggy last time i used it but it might be fixed now

[bleak night]

it is pretty nice

but i dont use a lot of the features

i use ltp for most of the random little shit

[acoustic lodge]

Can anyone help me fix the macro for coupe de grace and black powder? I used the one from wowhea. It gives me the error icon

[tepid trellis]

#showtooltip
/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

?

[acoustic lodge]

exactly what I did

[tepid trellis]

and you are trickster?

[acoustic lodge]

yes! Gives me the question mark icon

[tepid trellis]

fwiw the red question mark just means it cant read the tooltip

not that it isnt working

go smack some AoE dummies

[acoustic lodge]

oooooh

[tepid trellis]

and proc coup

[acoustic lodge]

ooh ao it's not intended to be a spammed button

[tepid trellis]

its just your BP bind on AoE for trickster

all it does it automate the use of coup on AoE

it will coup when it procs and BP when it isnt procced

[acoustic lodge]

Okay, I'll go try it out.
I was under the impression the Question Mark icon meant it was wrong lol

[olive canyon]

It should change to the relevant icon when active - i use that same macro and it works

[acoustic lodge]

ty ty!

[stable marlin]

I got a question for the sub gamers, been reading the disc, pins, faq etc.. when testing and I am on my second use of blades I hold dance/sectec so i have 2 full dances to cover the shadow blades duration, I seem to have secret tech coming off CD with dance having ~8-10 sec left on Dance, is this normal or should be holding dance charges longer before my next blades?

[alpine void]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

as long as you cover blades with 2 dances

its normal to have to wait a bit for the first usage after blades

[stable marlin]

Thanks! appreciate the response as always in here

[acoustic lodge]

I tested it. It won't let me use BP but it does pop up with coup de grace.. so IDk lol

[maiden oar]

ah ok

[swift tinsel]

Is it on your stealth bar

And also on your non-stealth bar

[acoustic lodge]

Yes

[tepid trellis]

screenshot the macro

[swift tinsel]

lol

forgot the R on powder

[warm marlin]

[swift tinsel]

rite of passage

[olive canyon]

We have all been there

Is there a way to add our trinkets to the essential cooldowns section?

[swift tinsel]

not with the base CDM

[acoustic lodge]

oof this is awkward

[swift tinsel]

nah everyone's done it

a thankfully easy fix

[tepid trellis]

had a sneakin suspicion on some misspelling

[acoustic lodge]

thank you guys. My apologies

[olive canyon]

which add would allow us to add them in

[swift tinsel]

arc ui can, maybe bettercooldownmanager as well but I haven't used that one much personally

[bleak night]

better cdm can yeah

arcui does it a bit better though i think

[swift tinsel]

arc is nice bc you can just drag and drop into the addon section

[olive canyon]

I am having a lot of anchoring issues at the moment so just working through them

[mighty crow]

so is sub like doing bad right now?

[hazy breach]

Sub is doing fine at 90

[mighty crow]

just askin cause me and a friend are at the same gS and he does waaay moire dps than me

like its funny

[hazy breach]

Well prepatch is a meme

[mighty crow]

like 634k vs me 360k lol

[swift tinsel]

owned

[hazy breach]

I just realized something

Theres another race thats simming as good as mechagnome

[swift tinsel]

ruh roh

[bleak night]

is it panda

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/dance-world-of-warcraft-dance-wow-pandaren-male-lmfao-party-rock-anthem-gif-27495538

[bleak night]

YES

food buff op

[tepid trellis]

u making me go panda

[hazy breach]

You can go mechagnome if you prefer

[tepid trellis]

no thanks

no diaper baby for me

[tribal blade]

staying nelf

haste finally go brr

[astral axle]

velf because edgelord twink race supremacy

[tribal blade]

velf is sexy too

[bleak night]

belf bc i can press arcane torrent outside of cds and feel like it did something even though it doesnt

[hazy breach]

My rogue hasnt been panda for like 6+ years, ill take any opportunity to swap back

[frail bone]

im debating the race choice right now... lol

[hazy breach]

I mean ultimately the impact of your race on dps is very minimal

[frail bone]

currently on a different realm from my other toons.. I dont want to spend the xfer then the race change.. and if it is ally then I need to faction change.. just going to be easier to use my boost.

mog though.

[bleak night]

counterpoint

pandas have sick animations

so on top of bis racial you get even more dps from looking cool

[frail bone]

most of my toons are HMT a form of troll and tauren so im want to see boots for a change

[astral axle]

i like knowing this

[still vector]

anyone available to look at a log with me? 19 gambit

[hazy breach]

I tried searching discord for some of my very very impressive panda mogs, but all the images have been hosted on websites that have deleted them

[tribal blade]

ngl panda seems like a horrible race to look at until i got turned into it with the atomic recalibrator

the animations are pretty good

[plush roost]

Who would win, male dwarf sprint animatiom or panda

[swift tinsel]

panda ez

[tribal blade]

absolutely panda

i was in dwarf prison for so long during DF

pandas are kinda bouncy, it's cool

[bleak night]

yeah panda animations are bis

i just hate how all the textures stretch and look like shit

[sick basin]

Go panda and just use racial illusions to be whatever your heart desires

[valid yoke]

I went dracthyr ngl lol

human form dracthyr looks kinda dope

[sick basin]

They are adding all those in with tradeskills

[bleak night]

my priest is dracthyr

better casting animations than velf

and glide op

the visage forms are cool

[maiden oar]

are u serious

i might actually buy a rzace change

panda is so funny

[lilac stag]

@keen dome we zoomin for leveling

[brisk onyx]

Nice

[steady osprey]

I was a female panda for many years and I loved it, but I decided on a whim to race change to void elf and I simply can't go back. While I will forever be enchanted by fat panda ass, transmogs are pretty rough on pandas especially for helmets and shoulders.

[brisk onyx]

You are the flash man

[lilac stag]

None of you actually played panda if you weren’t running around naked

[lilac stag]

Did the whole null stone x2, 6 gems +8/+12 speed gem

[brisk onyx]

and go ne to get 7% speed when stealth

[shrewd lantern]

he likes em bigbacked

[tribal blade]

nelf unironically is pretty cool for rogues

[frail bone]

damn do they really have 7%move speed increase at stealth

[long sun]

does this apply in aoe

or do u use shuriken storm

[swift tinsel]

nah just st

[torn tide]

whats that last icon there?

[long sun]

tyty

[long sun]

ancinet arts

[torn tide]

oh

wait so in aoe its just that but shuriken storm instead of strike?

[swift tinsel]

no you only do that in single target

[torn tide]

ah okay

surely ancient arts isnt useless in aoe right.... i still dont fully understand it

[west tide]

whats the levelin talents boys

[wintry heart]

Copied and pasted the talent build from wow head and just did an entire key without coup de grâce. Ama

[tribal blade]

you proc the apex a lot in aoe

because with enough targets you aren't spending sht on builders

so it all goes into apex 4

[torn tide]

oh so it just slams basically, with all the shadow clones and the refunding

[tribal blade]

yeah lots of refunds

[torn tide]

wait actually doesnt that mean the first talent wont do much since we arent really spending sht when in aoe

so no clones come out since not much sht used

[tribal blade]

yeah but it goes into apex 4, and BP does a LOT of heavy lifting in aoe

[torn tide]

yea true bp is great

[tribal blade]

apexing BP is good

i don't have an overall breakdown of keys on beta, but if someone can post one you'll see BP going to the moon

[torn tide]

the dps must be absolutely nuts

[tribal blade]

yeah sub feels really nice on the beta

still a bit too simple atm

but it's a vibe

[supple pawn]

are there smart people here

[astral axle]

no

[supple pawn]

based

okay so like. i want to experiment with alts, but have been told that most just dont feel good without apex anyways so would it b e best to just hop on beta and test

i feeel like this is a dumb question

[plush roost]

18 pit

[tribal blade]

juicy juicy BP

[tribal blade]

do you get tanks to actively try to have at least 6-7 mobs in every pull

or does it tend to just work out that way most of the time

[plush roost]

in 19s u kinda have to pull big

in like every key

except basically skyreach which is like 6-7 pulls

[tribal blade]

given how interrupts are easier to deal with now i can see the ceiling for high keys becoming a throughput thing

not like seasons where you do the kicks correctly, no deaths and then finish keys with tons of time left

[chrome palm]

I don’t like ancient arts showing up under eviscerate

Stealing all of that coup damage

[plush roost]

same xd

[chrome palm]

I saw that for a sec and I thought “how is ancient arts beating phys so badly?”

[tribal blade]

oh is it combining coup and evis

that's hilarious

[half comet]

is this all atrocity ui

[torn tide]

holy fuck lol

[viscid stirrup]

so is sub just sol cuz of soft target cap?

[maiden oar]

not that guy but i use atrocity and i think so

[lucid jackal]

The spec looks very good in dungeons rn lol

[maiden oar]

it depejds on the alt

[tribal blade]

nah pretty sure every spec in the game is soft capped some way or the other

[maiden oar]

a good chunk of apex talents dont meaningfully impact your decision making

if you are curious about a specific one i can maybe answer but i wont know about a few hehe

[narrow shadow]

Does it? Or is it just pad damage?

[tribal blade]

sub's apex quite impactful

[maiden oar]

yea subs is

for sure

[lucid jackal]

What does this even mean

[maiden oar]

ww is just extra dmg

as a counterexample

[narrow shadow]

Beneath the silent throne of Nyarlathotep, the last star whispers a name that has not yet been born.

I'm stealing the term time vampire btw

[tribal blade]

mansplaining the term pad to guy