most people playing wow at this moment arent pvpers, raiders, or m+ers
#subtlety
bleak night
bronze turret
Restricting addons (only matters to the hardcore people), dumbing down specs (only matters to people that enjoy complexity) and introducing housing in the same expansion
north schooner
been hearing this since original tbc 
opal basalt
Haha
vale pine
Restricting addons (only matters to the hardcore people), dumbing down specs (on...
they also reduced complexity in encounters and dungeons
simplified crafting
opal basalt
been hearing this since original tbc <:Okay:1043153086690119710>
I wouldn’t have thought of you as playing for that long ninja
bleak night
the dungeons dont feel any less complex than the previous expansions
i didnt do raid testing though
so cant speak on that
bronze turret
been hearing this since original tbc <:Okay:1043153086690119710>
They have never built a system purely made for the people that play the game for purely social reasons
Since bc
vale pine
i played the dungeon rotation on beta
there is a lot less of coordination you need to do
lucid jackal
I've been hearing this since wod I feel
uncut oriole
They have never built a system purely made for the people that play the game for...
Pet battles?
bronze turret
They said they have an entire team working on housing, it’s on the same dev level as expansion building
vale pine
bfa actively simplified classes to build a new foundation to go from
legion did not simplify classes
hazy breach
Garrisons, all mission tables, pet battles, delves, islands, the list goes on
vale pine
dragonflight did not do so^^
bronze turret
Pet battles?
Pet battles is tiny
uncut oriole
Pet battles is tiny
I mean you said never
bronze turret
If you really think anything prior compares to housing
vale pine
Garrisons, all mission tables, pet battles, delves, islands, the list goes on
wod missed m+ tbh
wod with m+ and a sane release shedule would be fine
the xpac just had so many problems
north schooner
Not as big but housing has been asked since forever
bleak night
wod with m+ and a sane release shedule would be fine
yeah but then we wouldve had another season with grimrail depot and everbloom
bronze turret
Yes but they are putting insane resources into housing, while also doing a huge pass on just “picking the game up”. The ads I see are all about housing.
hazy breach
Well thats because midnight has literally nothing else
north schooner
Of course, it's a huge new feature
bleak night
1 am will be good trust
vale pine
does not feel like a xpac
bronze turret
Idk, that doesn’t make it better. The fact the wow chief sat down and said they have an entire dev team only dedicated to housing tells me everything about the future. 1 team working on live. 1 team on next 2 expacs and 1 on housing 
vale pine
Yes but they are putting insane resources into housing, while also doing a huge ...
new player experience is one of the things the game needs to improve on to become more profitable/for long term health
quaint lodge
Idk, that doesn’t make it better. The fact the wow chief sat down and said they ...
ah yes the infamous 3 team blizzard
idk why people do this argument, there has to be a team working on housing
bronze turret
It’s in a very recent interview with Holly
quaint lodge
wait no shot tthis is verbatim what they said
bronze turret
She compares housing to maintaining the entire game + building new expacs
vale pine
housing has a lot of potential for mtx
we will likely see more aggressive monetization across the entire blizz stack soon
lucid jackal
It doesn't have to be viewed in the cynical lenses of "it's just about the bottom line"
vale pine
housing on its own is good
bleak night
i mean i like housing but they're absolutely gonna monetize the fuck out of it
lucid jackal
Housing has been a requested feature for over a decade now, competitors have fleshed out housing systems.
If wow wants to compete in this ecosystem, you have to commit a team to it and not just have it as a background "whatever feature"
vale pine
its a niche but very fun experience, even tho i don't know if players would start to play wow just for housing
fleet acorn
Just let me buy Midnight without useless housing please
bronze turret
“Organizationally, the development team has changed a lot, breaking up into more specialized team that can work in tandem with one another. There are now teams dedicated to each expansion, a team dedicated to live content, and another on housing”
vale pine
from what i know
bronze turret
Where’s the entire team on raiding?
vale pine
there was always a split between upcomming content and current content
vale pine
Where’s the entire team on raiding?
the raiding system takes inspiration on final fantasy online
from what i hear
which is why we see raids split in parts
uncut oriole
Where’s the entire team on raiding?
So if they just listed every team that's a part of live content would that have made you happy?
vale pine
wow was always a game that copied others, not always in a better way
but thats up to people to decide, i remember heated discussions about the opposite
lucid jackal
They probably do have a raiding team lol
vale pine
they have raid designers
lucid jackal
Yeah exactly
vale pine
they also have class designers
system designers, like we know scarizard was
but this might be part of the pve content team
which also makes sense in terms of communication
lucid jackal
hasnt housing been asked for
Since before wod. And with how... Not what people wanted wods was, even more asked for
shrewd lantern
for the bit
vale pine
but you might need to know what happens in raids or m+ when designing specs
so any of the 3, needs contact with the other to deisgn content
a raid designer needs to know how classes are deisgned to make bosses that utialize that
just to give an example of a diffrent connection
vale pine
Since before wod. And with how... Not what people wanted wods was, even more ask...
housing was asked in wotlk already
lucid jackal
Yeah probably
vale pine
wod was blizz finally "giving in" to housing
with the experiment garrison
which wasn't that successful
the current housing looks a lot more promising
even tho the system has a lot of things you can improve on
(which is fine, its opt in, optional content)
thorny ridge
Apex talents work with coup correctly?
hazy breach
Yes
hazy breach
Turns out you dont really need to cancelaura sectech either
Its like+-0
Because you have supercharged stuff on sectech it does similar amounts to an eviscerate
halcyon fractal
Any YouTubers or streamers I can watch play rogue for getting an idea on them? Thinking about playing them in midnight cause their based af
chrome palm
Turns out you dont really need to cancelaura sectech either
i tested cancelaura at <10 sht, letting it consume it at 10+ and it seemed good but that was a few weeks ago before tuning
fallow nimbus
Blizz should buff our part of sectec 
bleak night
yeah im tired of akaari getting all the glory
hazy breach
i tested cancelaura at <10 sht, letting it consume it at 10+ and it seemed good ...
Idk when i checked it was kinda the same as not caring about it
chrome palm
does premed bug exist in simc
hazy breach
No
But it seems to be like +0.2% or -0.2% either way so i dont see any reason to bother
ripe flame
Make it up by using shiv rotationally 
chrome palm
honestly tracking sht for the apex thing is already super annoying imo
at least on dummy without skyfury
hazy breach
Make it up by using shiv rotationally <:evil:1399924800008486963>
Seems pointless as well
warm marlin
But it seems to be like +0.2% or -0.2% either way so i dont see any reason to bo...
it's not particularly hard to force in the code
i mean via apl
hazy breach
yeah ik
ripe flame
Seems pointless as well
I'm just memeing but yeah
bronze turret
So if they just listed every team that's a part of live content would that have ...
It’s not about being happy or sad. It’s just a very telling set of design decisions that on top of each other reveal intent. Housing is a huge part of future wow. And maybe they just spend more money on the game, or they reallocate resources, idk. But it’s not emotional for me in either way. I haven’t played the game for 3 years now. It just seems like the focus on housing will have to take some focus from other areas of the game. Whether that’s good or bad is whatever to me personally.
slate marlin
could have also been new hires for housing or new hires to replace the ones swapping to housing
expanding resources etc
instead of purely reallocating them
bronze turret
Yea who knows. I just found it interesting because of Holly’s quotes and the 3 fucking midnight ads that I got and every single one was a different one about housing.
slate marlin
well its this shiny huge new thing
players have been asking for 20 years
they will advertise it 100%
hazy breach
"we removed your addons and made classes less fun" doesnt sound like a great advertising strategy 
So housing it is
pallid inlet
#bringbackdust
ripe flame
"we removed your addons and made classes less fun" doesnt sound like a great adv...
well akshually I have 3x the number of addons now 
bronze turret
players have been asking for 20 years
Ye but it was running on hbo and I haven’t used my tv for any wow shit ever. So it seems they are targeting normies as well
left shale
strange, i dont. and losing stuff like we and elv stopped dragging the performace of my older pc down. i miss my fun weakauras but thats about it.
bronze turret
The raid-puzzle solving WAs had to go. I just think class WAs etc were harmless
graceful rock
Barrage Helper too
barren plume
for that like 45 second winow when blades and dance are on cd do we just pool and slow damage until we back to blasting
rich canopy
I'm not sure if it's just my haste, but is there supposed to be drift between Shadow Dance and Secret Technique after Shadow Blades?
solemn creek
can we macro shadowdance /shadowblade/ secret technique?
barren plume
i made my rogue a dwarf and i hate looking at him
bleak night
fallow glade
gleeful glamour my beloved
maiden oar
i made my rogue a dwarf and i hate looking at him
wear clown suit its cool
look at this guy
he is cool
barren plume
murloc costume or bust
sand wigeon
anyone have a good ui that they can share?
barren plume
hows kul tiran rogue
north schooner
chubby
bleak night
more than you can handle dwarf boi
bitter halo
can we macro shadowdance /shadowblade/ secret technique?
Yes
hazy breach
You dont want to macro anything that gives haste alongside shadowdance though, so no trinket/maghar racial/tempered pot
Because deepning shadows doesnt update instantly, so you wont get the shadowdance extension
If you press them manually really fast it will be fine, just cant macro them instantenously together
lilac stag
Yea who knows. I just found it interesting because of Holly’s quotes and the 3 f...
Finding decor items around the world of Warcraft can be more engaging than some of the gsmeplay changes they’ve made to combat mechanics
rich canopy
I mean 99.5% of players were 90% focused on their rotation while blindly doing whatever WA shouted at them, moving engagement out of rotation and into encounters is a pretty good change if it lands
rustic geyser
idk, maybe not you but I've actually seen character models for the first time in years... I've just been staring at skill icons this WHOLE TIME
hazy breach
And for mythic raids specifically theres almost certainly going to be workarounds that people find that let you do stuff anyway, except its now more annoying
Just like them introducing private auras led to people using macros
opal basalt
i made my rogue a dwarf and i hate looking at him
Hear me out bro. Female with the Mohawk hairstyle
lilac stag
I mean 99.5% of players were 90% focused on their rotation while blindly doing w...
That’s just not accurate. There are plenty of people that played outlaw or sub and did not hard focus on the rotation and still performed in high end content and those were likely the two most challenging specs for dps last season.
tribal blade
HAHA based and real
barren plume
Hear me out bro. Female with the Mohawk hairstyle
but i dont like dwarf, idk why i picked em on my faction swapo
word is strongest race for em but i meannnnn
rule number 1 look cool
tribal blade
word is strongest race for em but i meannnnn
unless you're pushing very high end content it doesn't matter what race you are
i'm staying nelf 😉
bitter halo
You dont want to macro anything that gives haste alongside shadowdance though, s...
Should pots and trinkets be macro’ed separate then at all times?
!guide
tribal blade
Should pots and trinkets be macro’ed separate then at all times?
you would macro blades, pot and racial together excluding dance
then macro dance+sectec together
bitter halo
Ok thanks, I’ve been using the macro that includes it all, has that been a dps loss?
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique
Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm
This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.
/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call
Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:
/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder
You can find more macros and details in Guides like 
WoWhead or 
Icy Veins.
quiet smelt
what are the go to trinkets for sub in m+ atm ?
stray oyster
Are people using deathstalker for keys righ tnow
short radish
i hope to fuck not
stray oyster
im looking at logs and they are
sour horizon
thats the BDSM hate themself peeps, we ignore them
stray oyster
not sure what that means but ok
short radish
playing death stalker as sub in aoe situations is like rubbing yourself with sandpaper
tribal blade
playing death stalker as sub in aoe situations is like rubbing yourself with san...
*playing death stalker as sub is like rubbing yourself with sandpaper
short radish
rustic geyser
playing deathstalker as rogue is like rubbing yourself with sandpaper
tribal blade
actually *playing death stalker is like rubbing yourself with sandpaper
realisitically
tribal blade
fuck it
rustic geyser
it's fucking balls as sin too
tribal blade
i wonder when they finally give DS the BTE treatment outlaw got
and just make it a buff on the player
short radish
not sure what that means but ok
the real answer is (unless one of the 2 people playing sub rogue in "high keys" pops by and explains wtf theyre doing) is that it's prepatch and nothing matters
come back in 3 weeks when we get apex talents and shit changes again
short radish
and just make it a buff on the player
nah what theyre going to do is bring back redirect as a talent
tribal blade
DS might be good on prepatch but once we get the apex trickster starts gaining
tribal blade
nah what theyre going to do is bring back redirect as a talent
holy shit please no
wasn't it a glyph originally
or am i misremembering
short radish
i think so
sour horizon
only if they give burst of speed aswell!
short radish
nvm it was just a skill
rustic geyser
the 12 people left who pvp will rage if BOS came back
tribal blade
nvm it was just a skill
oh ok
tribal blade
i remember when they introduced it and was like "holy fucking finally can target swap"
quiet smelt
what are the go to trinkets for m+ rn on sub ? i have hero netherprism and mythic lily, but i could get hero antenna..
short radish
!guide
tribal blade
what are the go to trinkets for m+ rn on sub ? i have hero netherprism and mythi...
i would use m lily and then a passive
tribal blade
antenna is good atm
short radish
im also gonna link you to my response to someone asking whether to play trickster or deathstalker in m+
short radish
^
quiet smelt
i havent played in months so its just what i got rn
quiet smelt
literally just resubbed mostly for ui changes and to get used to all that but still wanna run some stuff cuz why not
so what would ou get in my shoes
short radish
just mongo bongo and get the most passive of effects
shrewd lantern
purely because i cbf playing around it
cbf doing m+ in prepatch
literally gives nothing lmao
quiet smelt
im sure sims are chalked at the moment yes ?
shrewd lantern
the win of prepatch is i can swap my mog 5x in a night without pissing gold
short radish
quiet smelt
this is m+?
short radish
yeah
short radish
whatever trinket you pick has the same bearing on deciding what you will eat for lunch today.
somewhat important at this current specific moment in time but ultimately meaningless in the greater scheme of things
quiet smelt
for sure
shrewd lantern
whatever trinket you pick has the same bearing on deciding what you will eat for...
bro's gonna get taco bell then go on a 3h drive
short radish
shrewd lantern
only reason i've logged in this week is for the love rocket drop chance
short radish
i was tempted to do m+ to get triple threat achieve
but after bricking 2 keys in a row
i really cant be fucked
and i have better things to do like touch grass
shrewd lantern
short radish
mage holding lust for 8 minutes
shrewd lantern
yeah i did 2 keys week 1 and im like
short radish
dps doing less damage than the tank
shrewd lantern
how do i describe the people nicely
without getting banned
hmmm
But i mean it checks out because anyone good is either raidlogging
or on beta
tall girder
Woooo fimb
shrewd lantern
anytime i tank i just hold w
and remember the packs other tanks pull i flame them for from dps pov
and dont do those
occasionally if its a season with a mob that has a 1tap frontal it can be fun to 180 spin one onto casters
short radish
woooo jontic
short radish
occasionally if its a season with a mob that has a 1tap frontal it can be fun to...
smh only doing 180s. you're supposed to do 1080s playing spin of fortune
graceful perch
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
good morning lovely people
vestal escarp
old quiver
is AOE blind back? was working in keys
tame terrace
has that even been fixed in beta
wary flower
Anyone else's warband bank just not working?
wary flower
Gotcha
narrow shadow
Were there some unannounced bug fixes to make up the nerfs or something similar?
vale pine
is AOE blind back? was working in keys
it was never removed, blizz just changed the tooltip
vale pine
Were there some unannounced bug fixes to make up the nerfs or something similar?
nope, its just nerfs
balmy pollen
it was never removed, blizz just changed the tooltip
But it was a talent right? And now the talent only says 80 reduced cooldown and 80 reduced duration. Probably they then should also add that it hits multiple targets
balmy pollen
yeah exactly
vale pine
it just does not say it anymore, the functionality is supposed to be removed but so far hasn't
balmy pollen
they forgot about the last part 😅
tribal blade
the cope is they decided it's a terrible idea to take away our only form of aoe cc
and didn't say anything
and forgot to put the tooltip back in
balmy pollen
🤞
tribal blade
it's just confounding how they finally gave us aoe cc because they recognized it was a massive issue and then take it away
it just adds to the rogue issue
- no raid buff
- no aoe cc
- no lust
- no bres
keen dome
1. no raid buff
2. no aoe cc
3. no lust
4. no bres
Can't you argue that Atrophic is a raid buff? I agree with you though.
vale pine
blizz initially wanted to give rogues the additional physical damage buff
but because rogue was using cloak and cheat death in raids to provide utility
it was moved to monk
tribal blade
Can't you argue that Atrophic is a raid buff? I agree with you though.
technically yes, but nobody TRULY cares about it like dmg increase raid buffs, especially in keys
keen dome
Ye
tribal blade
blizz initially wanted to give rogues the additional physical damage buff
ohhh i didn't know that
keen dome
I don't disagree with you, but I could see Blizz arguing we do bring something. but I'd like a proper raid aura buff.
vale pine
ohhh i didn't know that
we had it initially
it was just changed later in the ptr cycle
keen dome
+3% phyiscal damage and enemies debuffed by the rogue (I.e., poisoons, find weakness, uh.. whatever outlaws do) makes it so they can't parry your attacks
tribal blade
most of the time you bring up atrophic when everyone's trying to figure out how to survive 1 shots in keys and they'll say "oh yeah i forgot that was a thing"
keen dome
Haha
tribal blade
damage raid buff stacking is so potent because with the right comp you're all doing an additional 10-15% more dps
keen dome
Yeah
Physical would be the cool choice since it'd let you go all in on the physical boys
vale pine
the thought back then was probably
tribal blade
the good thing for S1 is brew is looking to be meta which opens the door for phys comp
tribal blade
that rogue has enough tools to not need a raid buff
sadly not the case anymore /cry
vale pine
raid design changed too
remember that legion had a lot of raid mechanics you could cheese by bringing multiple immunities
stoic spire
Hello team, there used to be a cool website that go through m+ dungeons and explained mechanics of packs and bosses but you could filter that for your class and it gave tips like you can immune this mechanic with cloak or feint works on this ability or you can shadow step over this one, etc. Is there anything like that for midnight or at least spreadsheet of useful tricks?
tribal blade
now that you mention that as the tiers have gone on i've been doing less and less immune soaking in raids
dense jasper
anyone have thoughts on your ideal spell queue window? i just started playing with it, 90ms seems too small i think like 150-200ms might be good
vale pine
200-250 or default
balmy pollen
sad thing is that other then the non-lethal poison rogue doesn't bring very much for raid buff so we're very dependent on dmg output
vale pine
there is not rly a benefit for going lower
vale pine
now that you mention that as the tiers have gone on i've been doing less and les...
we are also not the best immunities anymore
^^
tribal blade
we are also not the best immunities anymore
t r u e
dense jasper
200-250 or default
rad tyty
vale pine
rad tyty
spell queue is rly not that hard to understand, its just "you can use spells before the gcd is over", and the number decides just how much before
there is a lot of missinfirmation going around about it
you can overwrite the spell during that time, by sending a diffrent one
which is the biggest error you find on most websites
^ means many claim you can't do that
spell queue in general is mostly irrelevant, it becomes more relevant if you have classes with very low global cooldown
thats why outlaw likes to use a lower value than 400
ar reduces the gcd to 800, so 400 would cover half of it
(which can mean, you send a spell you didn't want to, and only realize later)
old quiver
it was never removed, blizz just changed the tooltip
it was initally, was doing keys on the first day when the tooltip changed. blind with airborne irritant was only blinding one mob.
dense jasper
there is a lot of missinfirmation going around about it
tbh it only hit my radar because i asked chadgbd how i could make my parses all 99's, and that was the first time i made any consideration of it
tepid trellis
lol
dense jasper
maybe! but, it does seem to make some difference in how quickly i know what to do with my shadow techniques procs.
tepid trellis
SQW is mostly just preference really
i know people that play with 400 and i know people that play with as little as 40
dense jasper
i know people that play with 400 and i know people that play with as little as 4...
which camp do you fall into?
vale pine
playing with very low is typically bad unless you spam keys
dense jasper
SQW is mostly just preference really
that makes sense. but even with a small amount of fooling around with it, it feels like a significant change to my enjoyment of spamming buttons
dense jasper
playing with very low is typically bad unless you spam keys
i do be spamming keys
vale pine
during dance you want your cast to be back to bac
*back
setting it too low might mean you introduce small delays
tepid trellis
only reason i upped mine slightly was because i started playing some Elemental shaman and Devourer DH
dense jasper
yea 90ms felt not ideal
tepid trellis
having a bit more wiggle room for casts is good
vale pine
^
dense jasper
this is great info and i'm very appreciative of your insights
fallow nimbus
Default is 400ms but that was 250ms when it was called lagtolerance
Ping + 100 should always be safe
I have it at like 150 to 200 but i also sometimes spam and other times don't
400 works really good with the 1button rotation
north schooner
Ping+100 is not always safe. If you are playing with under 10 ping for instance, you'd have to be spamming your buttons ~10 times a second to not have gaps in your gcds
slate marlin
Whats the default? 400?
north schooner
400 yes
dense jasper
setting it too low might mean you introduce small delays
which looking at dance + shadow blade windows on beta, it seems super tight to sneak it more sec tec's in your CD windows
its been feeling even tighter to hit min/max sectecs in your burst windows on beta vs. on live servers
vale pine
thats because you can't rly "sneak in"
secret has a static cooldown
so you either can fit or don't
most of the time, you will fit one secret during blades
scarlet oyster
hi, do you still enjoy playing sub on that prepatch ? its depressing for me
dense jasper
most of the time, you will fit one secret during blades
true. but there's those other times outside of "most", mostly during lust that i'm trying to get nailed down
there's definitely a sequence of events where i can tell i'm within 1-2 globals of having played perfectly where i would have gotten another sectec in my dance/blades window
bronze turret
I mean 99.5% of players were 90% focused on their rotation while blindly doing w...
Imagine focusing on rotation. If it was so easy to raid highest level of mythic more people would be able to. As it stands it’s still just a niche group of players.
dense jasper
since i havent choreographed it perfectly yet, it jsut means i send a dance + sectec pretty soon after my blades/dance window. but i'm pretty certain there's some cases where i can send a sectec in my dance/blades window and then still have a dance leftover
fallow nimbus
Ping+100 is not always safe. If you are playing with under 10 ping for instance,...
I think you misunderstanding the setting
bronze turret
hi, do you still enjoy playing sub on that prepatch ? its depressing for me
Whats the issue with it? Playing it on the beta for a bit, it felt ok, but it was such a short amount of time. My thoughts at the time was that it will get stale fast when it’s live because it’s too simple and you play a lot if you do any high-end content.
dense jasper
Ping+100 is not always safe. If you are playing with under 10 ping for instance,...
who the hell is playing under 10 ping
fallow nimbus
It's just the timewindow where keypresses are allowed to queue before the gcd finish
dense jasper
i thought you had to live in korea to have ping that low
bronze turret
who the hell is playing under 10 ping
Plugged directly into the data server
scarlet oyster
Whats the issue with it? Playing it on the beta for a bit, it felt ok, but it wa...
it's being slow, the amount of keybinds is so reduced and it feels less rewarding for trying to minmax stuff :(
bronze turret
Well, it hasn’t been fully explored yet has it
dense jasper
Plugged directly into the data server
wot dat mean? how does one plug into the data server?
tepid trellis
fairly sure its higher apm
bronze turret
Min/max is inevitable
bronze turret
wot dat mean? how does one plug into the data server?
A yoke
fallow nimbus
With a high window you can even overwrite a queued spell
bronze turret
As in 10 ms is indeed impossible unless you live next door to where your server is hosted
But even then, prob not
tepid trellis
i had 16ms yesterday when i was doing some quick tests
scarlet oyster
got 8ms 🤓 !
tepid trellis
but its usually around 24-28
bronze turret
How the fuck
dense jasper
i'm 40ms all the time and i feel lucky to have that
bronze turret
I don’t even have that low ms to my provider
scarlet oyster
How the fuck
idk I live next to the serv location and i've a good provider
fallow nimbus
My record is 7000 something constant ping in gw2 without disconnects
scarlet oyster
got 7 ms on LoL aswell
bronze turret
Ah ok
dense jasper
got 7 ms on LoL aswell
are you in korea?
scarlet oyster
are you in korea?
noo luxembourg
dense jasper
wtf
bronze turret
Why would Koreans have low ms
vagrant sigil
Koreans would have high ms by default
scarlet oyster
Why would Koreans have low ms
they all live in seoul
bronze turret
Well exactly
bronze turret
Too many ppl
tepid trellis
anywhere else its not good
vagrant sigil
^
dense jasper
Why would Koreans have low ms
i cant give you any technical description of why. i just know that some league streamers i've followed love playing in korean cuz that is their best ping
tepid trellis
when i played league when i was in korea 2 months ago i play with 4ms
dense jasper
and league's the only thing i've followed where ppl highly value sub 10ms ping
scarlet oyster
i cant give you any technical description of why. i just know that some league s...
yee its cause their serv are in seoul and they all travel there
bronze turret
when i played league when i was in korea 2 months ago i play with 4ms
It café?
tepid trellis
nope my own apartment
bronze turret
You got an apartment in Korea?
lilac stag
who the hell is playing under 10 ping
4-6 here
scarlet oyster
nope my own apartment
flexingggg
bronze turret
Are you moving to Korea?
scarlet oyster
where is "here"?
I bet south west germany
bronze turret
Leaving the danes behind
lilac stag
NA. I’m ~40 miles from the “east” server cluster which is in Chicago. 
vagrant sigil
20ms here in nw germany currently
bronze turret
Scath never went to bed
lilac stag
^ This
dense jasper
yea this is "still up" US hours tbh
bronze turret
It’s like 3 am? 2?
lilac stag
4
bronze turret
Almost
tepid trellis
You got an apartment in Korea?
i do yeah, and no im not leaving denmark i just travel there for work sometimes
bronze turret
Still working law
lilac stag
Will get productive in a bit and feed the doggos soon. 
tepid trellis
yeh mostly contracted to telecoms over there
tepid trellis
and 80% of our company is based there
bronze turret
The Korean denmark mafia
lilac stag
tepid trellis
but yeh have an apartment in gangnam seoul, which i just rent out when im not there, which is only like twice a year
dense jasper
tech money be like
tribal blade
but yeh have an apartment in gangnam seoul, which i just rent out when im not th...
it would be so easy to link a gangnam style gif but i feel like that's done to death
tribal blade
https://giphy.com/gifs/better-7EamSGumESd0Y
nice i'm winning
north schooner
who the hell is playing under 10 ping
I have 3-4ms. It's possible in Europe at least
mighty citrus
I have 3-4ms. It's possible in Europe at least
thats why we lose gcds 😄
north schooner
I think you misunderstanding the setting
No, if your sqw is too low, then you can't queue an ability to fire immediately when the GCD ends unless you are mashing the button fast enough. And that creates gaps between your GCDs
You are basically telling the server "I want to do this next" but it has to happen within that window for it to automatically fire when your GCD is open again. The more you shrink the window, the harder it is to time your button press in it
tribal blade
thats why we lose gcds 😄
that's the worst thing about playing sub with high ping like i do
tribal blade
i have to be seriously on the ball during dance, and even so it'll be a gamble if my final input in dance actually registers
north schooner
Too fast is ok, just set your sqw to something sensible
tepid trellis
have you thought about just getting gud?
north schooner
Which most of the time is just default
tribal blade
it happens all the time where i go to cast strike as last gcd of dance and my char even starts doing the animation but the game says NOPE
tribal blade
have you thought about just getting gud?
i'm gonna cry
although after losing WAs my input to the game seems a lot better
i can fit the final gcd of dances better
tepid trellis
it happens all the time where i go to cast strike as last gcd of dance and my ch...
fwiw thats more likely the cause of starting dance mid global than being ms related
tribal blade
fwiw thats more likely the cause of starting dance mid global than being ms rela...
could be yeah
balmy pollen
I have 3-4ms. It's possible in Europe at least
Same here
tribal blade
but since addons went bye bye my dances seem smoother now
i think i had a lot of frankenstein and old WAs that were screwing up my game
tribal blade
i was sad to hear about dance not insta updating haste changes
tepid trellis
not remotely surprising tho
tribal blade
yeah true
mighty citrus
it happens all the time where i go to cast strike as last gcd of dance and my ch...
happens to me all the time. then i lose a gcd in order to need to press bs again, although i already pressed strike in dance
aaaaaaaand i hate it
lilac stag
lol what a loser, i have 200 ms
Yes. You are correct.
I’m assuming you’re on one of the Chicago servers. The LA ones were worse connection wise due to routing.
tribal blade
Yes. You are correct.
I’m assuming you’re on one of the Chicago servers. The L...
i think so yeah
i think i have ~150 ms to west coast servers
like proudmoore
also 150 ms to OCE servers
if i went to taiwan/korea/china i would have low ping for sure
but then i wouldn't be able to talk to anyone
you know i never considered going to EU, i bet my ms there would be lower
but i'm happy in my guild so i'm not going anywhere
vale pine
latency has an impact on how sucessful you are in putting in your last gcd in dance
tho only rly matters on very specific haste values
tribal blade
ahhh i see
hey question
could i kind of "counter" my 200 ms with getting slightly more haste
as a buffer?
like adding +0.2 secs to dance
vale pine
e.g. if you looked at the tests i did in #1065728795455266888
tepid trellis
yes haste would be make easier
vale pine
the input latency was about as much as your delay
lilac stag
like proudmoore
It’s funny when I get clustered to like Tich, connection just goes to shit. 135+ and lag spikes.
tribal blade
It’s funny when I get clustered to like Tich, connection just goes to shit. 135+...
oh yeah on top of tich also being super high pop server
lilac stag
tribal blade
ahh ok interesting
vale pine
if you play trickster
coup still has 1.2 sec gcd
so trickster potentially wants more "extra" haste
its an interessting topic tbh
sour horizon
goblin stocks rising!
lilac stag
On beta going closer to the .4 margin felt more consistent
tribal blade
ok i think i'm gonna plan to get slightly more haste than recommended for breakpoints then
vale pine
the fun thing is
lilac stag
Just roll +684 and hooman
vale pine
it might be not one specific value
e.g. when using a trinket, giving you +X haste
the reliability during and outside of the trinket use might be diffrent
lilac stag
just don’t use haste trinkets. ez
vale pine
haha
lilac stag
idk blades window is kinda meh
tribal blade
man this is complicated af
do all classes have these kinds of things they have to work out over haste?
lilac stag
Yes
vale pine
nope
lilac stag
Any gcd that isn’t set
vale pine
^
lilac stag
So basically assa and shit no one plays
tepid trellis
Like pillar of frost, frost DK
tribal blade
mmm makes sense yeah
vale pine
it is very design dependent, as stealthi mentioned so you would need to go case by case
tribal blade
maining rogue all these years never needed to worry about haste breakpoints haha
fallow ocean
@vale pine what spec will you play in midnight as of now you think?
lilac stag
Most will try to see how many extra casts you get in before it’s not worth it
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> what spec will you play in midnight as of now you think?
subtlety, as always
fallow ocean
good answer 😄
fallow ocean
sweet
sour horizon
S rank meta per Fuu tier
tribal blade
if they continue to tune sub like they did on the last tuning patch we'll end up being a meta spec
vale pine
S rank meta per Fuu tier
exactly
i mean, there is a reason i started doing theorycrafting on subtlety/rogue
tribal blade
actually it's hard for rogue to be meta with our toolkit so we'd have to be pretty OP
vale pine
i do like the ideas behind the spec, even if i am not always happy about decisions made in development
tribal blade
sub has the best spec fantasy and i think it's not even close
now if they would just design sub in the way WE see it
vale pine
i am sad they removed the cdr from subtlet, because i rly liked the dynamic it created
it was somewhat interessting to see the dynamic change over time too
tribal blade
if we get lucky they last second give us back cdr on sectec
vale pine
where initially you got a lot of extra dances from cdr
while df/tww did change this
and shifted the burden on the player
making cdr mandatory rather than "you get something extra"
which is probably why it was removed
lilac stag
I wonder if the extra gcd as we go from s1-s3 will be a better feeling of natural power progression, which you necessarily didn’t get with cdr
crisp juniper
I joined this discord to find if people where happy about the changes because I was sad about the changes but finally im convinced to play by seeing people still playing it
lunar verge
yeah why trust your own opinion
vale pine
I wonder if the extra gcd as we go from s1-s3 will be a better feeling of natura...
rly depends ho how much haste we play
lunar verge
if you like playing it just do that
lilac stag
rly depends ho how much haste we play
And how many ilvl jumps we see
vale pine
item level isn't that much of a metric anymore
the stat growth curves often get adjusted
and there is stat dr
lilac stag
Well for adding secondaries like haste it is if there’s no other stat adjustments on bliz end
vale pine
like, lets assume haste is the best stat
lilac stag
I’ll be amused if we are always just going for +2 gcd the entire expansion
vale pine
so we go all in on it s1
but due to stat dr and other limits, its not reasonable to assume we will go over a certain point
formal notch
Heya everyone iam just curious i resubbed yesterday too and grabbed a quick few m+ builds from icyveins and wowhead but is it me or is the rotation of sub pretty simplified now compared to assa
lilac stag
Simplified yes. Assa is still easier as it was also simplified.
formal notch
It feels a bit lackluster for button mashjng even tough the damage is pretty good
vale pine
so your point, which was, unless i missunderstood, that gameplay changes from more stats.
But in the example, you would not see diffrent gameplay
and thats actually typical
most gameplay changes did come from tier sets
fallow ocean
what race is best @vale pine or what u play?
vale pine
or talent changes
vale pine
what race is best <@194804407706189824> or what u play?
i play on the worse, undead
lilac stag
Perhaps you should look at what Blizzard is intending to do with combat mechanics in midnight and re-evaluate if the subscription is worth it.
vale pine
current best is human, but has a lot of close races which are good
formal notch
Perhaps you should look at what Blizzard is intending to do with combat mechanic...
How do you experience the simplified version find it fun or just getting adjusted probably?
vale pine
midnight best might be mecha gnome
tho best race, typically changes over time
so mecha might be best s1
karmic harbor
Heya everyone iam just curious i resubbed yesterday too and grabbed a quick few ...
think the prepatch spec isnt complete
vale pine
and s2 we are back to human/dwarf/etc
sour horizon
timewalking dungeons were rough
lilac stag
formal notch
Fuu I remember you being a sub writer and theory crafter. Do you still enjoy the current alterations or would you wish for more complexity?
sour horizon
so many bad dps
vale pine
Fuu I remember you being a sub writer and theory crafter. Do you still enjoy the...
I do think Midnight has the general problem of simplifying everything too much
my take on the change is, it is a good baseline to work from, but feels like it needs more iteration
so like in drawing, you start out with a wireframe and soft lines, before you refine, add details etc.
formal notch
Yeah i tried it too and my hot take of an hour on training dummys is you have 1 builder spender for either single target or aoe and the occasional buffs to press
vale pine
your drawing might already look good early on
but it isn't before you finish it that you can enjoy it completely
the main problems i see are design mistakes, likely because of time constraints or lazy development
vale pine
it does
lilac stag
Yeah i tried it too and my hot take of an hour on training dummys is you have 1 ...
You have 2 builders depending on hero talents, and you’re not playing around build and spend. You’re playing around Sectech.
vale pine
but in a good way?
formal notch
You have 2 builders depending on hero talents, and you’re not playing around bui...
I miss the bleeds in sub a bit too
vale pine
midnight added haste scaling to dance, just like we discussed, it adds latency and input lag to the discussion and complicates things more
formal notch
Hahaha
vale pine
most of the apex optimizations are because of mistakes in design
karmic harbor
I miss the bleeds in sub a bit too
🫃
vale pine
which are mostly:
- Don't use spells
- Use spells in an not intuitive way
- use macros to play
all of which i am not 100% convinced is good gamplay depth
but that's an interesting discussion, wonder how others see it
formal notch
Get out
Nah i was kidding about bleeds tough but the complexity we had in dragonflight and options to choose from in rotation in season 2 felt a bit more fulfilling if you get what I mean
upper narwhal
The point of the redesign was to get rid of unintuitive gameplay so gotta feel like that’s a bit of a failure
At least it’s just the apex and not half a dozen things
lilac stag
If they actually make 
a viable it would solve both the add another action to press, or don’t take it for sake of simplicity. Iteration wise I dull think we’re in a way better overall spot starting a new expansion than we have been.
upper narwhal
I would bet money we see a goremaws based tier set this expansion
lilac stag
The point of the redesign was to get rid of unintuitive gameplay so gotta feel l...
First time playing rogue? All we do is find degen uses of spells and gameplay for .3-.7 % dps gains
That’s a we problem
formal notch
I guess I need some extra time on this iteration to maybe learn apprecatie its simplicity and see how the upcoming patches will make it have a bit more diversity
vale pine
That’s a we problem
is it?
grand wyvern
The point of the redesign was to get rid of unintuitive gameplay so gotta feel l...
I think as long as you don't lose huge amount of dps by not playing degenerately it is fine, let players minmax how they please
lilac stag
People fucking hated the idea of timing sod during the DFA gcd
lilac stag
then it was whatever
vale pine
is a "you problem"
because you always can cba and just play
so by careing about gameplay, you already make things worse for you
lilac stag
you’ll see others maybe cancel aura shit
karmic harbor
i feel like playing optimally outside of hof doesnt matter
maybe even hof is too much
vale pine
with how easy rotations are
lilac stag
vale pine
you might just play one button on many specs
tuning is still relevant
and for what its worth, you already saw that
formal notch
you might just play one button on many specs
They made this possible now with the nice glowing button 😅
vale pine
playing with one button can be more efficient than playing regular on a worse tuned class
so thats already reality
which is, i assume scaths argument
tribal blade
maybe even hof is too much
nah if you're playing at HoF level they expect you to be looking deep into your rotation
vale pine
why care, if we already have an enviroment, optimizations don't matter most of the time
tho to come back to my point
a lot of things are not intuitive by design
karmic harbor
nah if you're playing at HoF level they expect you to be looking deep into your ...
what they expect and what's needed are 2 different things
formal notch
It's all about fun in the end right? Does a rotation feel fullfilling. Do the buttons you press matter enough that you want to press em? Is it relevant to the class fantasy
vale pine
is that a mistake by the player or designer
lilac stag
trying to play optimal
The idea of pressing backstab while in dance is what I’d refer to as degen shit likely not intended, but not exactly developed enough on blizzards end. Maybe that’s bliz’s idea of a good time to yank sub rogues around by the chain. Idk
karmic harbor
but last time i raided hof was legion, i wasnt playing rogue optimally and was doing things people said was worse for dps cause it felt better
maybe is different now
lilac stag
bring on Shiv in Dance.
vale pine
argument for:
- Mistake of a plyer: Player optimizes gameplay, cares about it, he shouldn't
- Mistake of the designer: Designs should follow best practice, and avoid things like this, so if it happens, it is accidental or a design failure
formal notch
Future wow will be all classes having the same rotations with just different colors on the spells and having different animations
tribal blade
maybe is different now
i know for a fact there are players who kinda suck and are in HoF guilds
vale pine
you could take a middle path
but in the end, i personally tend to say the mistake is in design
tribal blade
but having to listen to that drama over those people is something
vale pine
especially if it can create situations which impact the regular player in a negative way
grand wyvern
Future wow will be all classes having the same rotations with just different col...
i mean, past wow was kinda like that? spam frostbolt or spam shadowbolt what is the difference?
vale pine
so we will probably need to set on disagreeing on that
formal notch
i mean, past wow was kinda like that? spam frostbolt or spam shadowbolt what is ...
The color of your endgame robe 🥲
vale pine
the motivation for people to play wow in classic is very diffrent to retail
e.g. there are now stremer events for hardcore
void hound
ive been out of the loop for a while, have we reached the "lets hope half the broken stuff gets fixed before release" part of the cycle?
vale pine
and the process to max level is the actual content, the chance to die is the thrill
but i don't rly understood the appeal to it, because you essentially follow pre defined guides and adons which minimize your chance to die
lilac stag
The more approachable and more accessible something is, the better chance you have of landing with the largest portion of the population. Niche / Hispter spec were niche for a reason.
vale pine
so you need to either get disconnected, or do some other big misstep to die
grand wyvern
Players play the videogame, they don't play the design. You can see it in classic, you can see it these reworks in retail
vale pine
The more approachable and more accessible something is, the better chance you ha...
i mentioned it earlier
some of the most loved games are easy to play
lilac stag
people in general will take path of least resistance to get the desired result
vale pine
does this mean, every game needs to be super easy?
vale pine
anything not "too easy" is hipster/niche
like my take on it is
i like the approach nintendo often took in the past
lilac stag
people gravitate to assa every tier, unless sub is “overtuned” and then complain about having to learn all the “stupid cd shit”.
vale pine
even if accidental, lets take super mario 64 as an example
the game is funermentally easy, but has a lot of room to optimize on top of it
to compare it to wow
by talking about this niche/hipster stuff
void hound
does this mean, every game needs to be super easy?
no, cause we can find plenty of examples of hard games being very popular (league of legends, counter strike, fighting games, chess)
vale pine
you would cut out the mastery/optimization part of super mario 64
is that a good or bad thing?
grand wyvern
no, cause we can find plenty of examples of hard games being very popular (leagu...
those are pvp games, they are as hard as your opponent tho
vale pine
people gravitate to assa every tier, unless sub is “overtuned” and then complain...
i mentioned it before, if you look at popualrity, it actually is tuning
void hound
those are pvp games, they are as hard as your opponent tho
yeah pvp games are by default harder, so it just speaks to the point
vale pine
so people don't gravitate to x over y if tuning makes sense
tho thats rarely the case, so we don't have many "unbiased" data points
what you did was draw an conclusion based on unequal circumstances
its like
"if i offer people 3$ of cash"
and
"i offter people 4$ of cash alternatively"
why arn't people 50/50 between the two offerings
lilac stag
your comparing games with different hooks.
One is playing as a main char, it’s me mario, where you honesty have little to no attachment to that toon. It’s an action game.
WoW people have distinct attachments to their toon. Why are you playing rogue? Well I started with it and other characters are fun for a bit but it’s not my character. The relationship to the player and the characters they play are different. The engagement will be different.
grand wyvern
so people don't gravitate to x over y if tuning makes sense
there are some evident outliers, like people hating the previous iteration of affliction and having shit play rate regardless of tuning
vale pine
there are some exceptions
but thats not rogue
people like to play BM hunter because of the simplicity and mobility
even if MM is tuned higher
it also often makes more sense, because hunters are often send to do soak duties or extra work
lilac stag
or they enjoy having a stampede of pets running across their screen
vale pine
many i talk to don't
void hound
your comparing games with different hooks.
One is playing as a main char, it’s...
that is true
the only reason wow is alive is because it had a distinct "first mover" advantage when it came out
and as we see time and time again, its hard for people to switch off of what they already know, which is why wow player put up with extremely shitty design time and time again
because despite how garbo the game is, the psychological cost of switching is higher (none of your friends play the other game etc etc)
vale pine
especially with all the pathing and pet ai issues
lilac stag
Raiding populous and majority of wow populous are not the same.
BM just does everything great for general content and you get two exotic pets.
🇼
MM typically sucks in general content
Much like rogue.
vale pine
that is true
the only reason wow is alive is because it had a distinct "first mo...
think wow has two things going for it
- there is no competition
- blizz created an enviroment, most players stay within the ecosystem, it was an interessting phenomena many studies founf
so many players are not mmo players, but rather wow players
whats also funny, because it turns out most gamers have a small set of games which they stick with
lilac stag
that is true
the only reason wow is alive is because it had a distinct "first mo...
I progged from hunters on as fury warrior. It was fun. It still wasn’t the same as my original rogue that I normally prog on. Historical memories are powerful.
vale pine
creates a scary enviroment when you think about it
void hound
yeah the competition is pretty bad i agree
vale pine
and just how much roblox and forntite capture of the market
void hound
so many players are not mmo players, but rather wow players
right i completely agree
and none of this is really a bad thing, i just hate how much blizzard tries to appease them lol
like no joke, some specs should have been deleted long ago
but you cant ever have that conversation
vale pine
there is also this
^ this is nothing new, it is a obviouse thing, people just don't talk about it often
void hound
yup
companies pour millions into the next hero shooter (to play it safe) only to utterly fail cause well, they played it safe lol
sour horizon
im more likely to just drop WoW and go play all the single player stuff ive missed when WoW feels crap, like Shadowlands
and end of seasons etc
void hound
im more likely to just drop WoW and go play all the single player stuff ive miss...
not being a pathetic slave to wow is the move
vale pine
wow became a lot more seasonal for sure
void hound
i cant take wow players seriously when they cry about blizzard, like mf youre gonna stay subbed anyways lol
sour horizon
anytime I see live service I tune it right out
vale pine
which means you actually can play other games ^^
void hound
wow became a lot more seasonal for sure
i love that tbh
lunar verge
i cant take wow players seriously when they cry about blizzard, like mf youre go...
no1 has ever quit
left shale
but you cant ever have that conversation
you cant ever take something away. the minute it exists someone will expect it to be there forever. its why they tend to do things in small measures. easier to add than subtract.
grand wyvern
i love that tbh
same, i don't want to only play one game, i want to get out of it and being able to come back
vale pine
i love that tbh
i disslike many of the consequences of it
e.g. turbo boost
or crest time gating
void hound
turbo boost is cringe, crest time gating i dont mind
left shale
i dont mind either. gives me something to do.
vale pine
systems like this encourage you to stay with the game longer
sour horizon
turbo boost kills my drive to do m+
vale pine
rather than taking breaks
lunar verge
I feel like they won't do turboboost again with the longer runway of upgrades next season
vale pine
its in the end a simple formula to try to get people to spend more time and money on wow
left shale
wow is pretty much the only game i have played in like 16 years. its the only thing that keeps my interest.
plus im old and set in my ways.
grand wyvern
i think subscription made sense for an mmo, but it doesn't right now for the seasonal game wow is, they are trying to minmax money but they are hurting the way the game is played
void hound
plus im old and set in my ways.
i feel like im experimenting more as i got older
left shale
wow is kind of on its own island. it exists because of the ip. new mmos all seem to start and fail regardless of how good parts of them are. but wow just keeps chugging along, making money
lunar verge
i think subscription made sense for an mmo, but it doesn't right now for the sea...
as long as it makes sense for them they'll keep doing it
left shale
i feel like im experimenting more as i got older
everyone is different 🙂 some of my best friends i made a long time ago in game. still talk and play witht hem most days. keeps me here.
void hound
thats awesome
left shale
ive been around for some friends kids. know their families. and ive never met them in rl. sdtill had good times and thats what matters.
the friends along the way meme isnt that far off for me.
grand wyvern
as long as it makes sense for them they'll keep doing it
yeah but they are not always right, shadowlands is the prime example, they did all that bullshit to keep people subbed and ended up bleeding players
left shale
i still remembver playing assas on iron reaver with cap and the lego ring and going from 0 to infinity dps and making peopole angry. good times
left shale
yeah but they are not always right, shadowlands is the prime example, they did a...
yup. but i think they learned from that. never see that level of garbage again. still some, but its still an mmo so they are going to have some things that people arent going to agree with.
lunar verge
yeah but they are not always right, shadowlands is the prime example, they did a...
yeah obviously they're not always right but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to remove a huge source of revenue in hopes that another revenue stream can compare. things have to change a lot before that happens
vale pine
fun fact, a lot of systems to keep you engage ended up adde in df/tww
left shale
i just enjoy the game 3 months at a time and look forward to the next 3. do other things in between or just do dumb keys with my friends to kill time.
vale pine
tbh whatever is fun to you
grand wyvern
fun fact, a lot of systems to keep you engage ended up adde in df/tww
and i hate them :), i hate crests, turboboosts, but that's just me i guess
void hound
fun fact, a lot of systems to keep you engage ended up adde in df/tww
the only reason i started with wow in df is because they got rid of most of the shit mechanics of sl/bfa lol
left shale
and i hate them :), i hate crests, turboboosts, but that's just me i guess
its a bunch of people. they want to just log on, have gear and play. but its not what the game is really. fellowship is a good example. lot less of the mmo stuff more o the dungeon stuff. and its dead. for now at least.
vale pine
its funny to me how remix legion just made it more obviouse that the xpac was indeed rly good
and not just people being nostalgic, like i saw mentioned a lot every time discussions came up
vale pine
i think thats where you could capture more players
like e.g. with legion
you could fix 99% of the concerns by
- providing an legendary vendor day 1
- re-tune EN to be not such a joke
- Fine tune AP a bit more so its not an mindless grind early on
and every xpac has a list like this
so "new game+" with this problems fixed would actually be interessting
left shale
for something like remix sre. but you wouldnt see a vendor day one on live. the others make sense though. they could have made aquisition better sure, but gear vendors are always a fix partway through things, never the original way to get things.
vale pine
for something like remix sre. but you wouldnt see a vendor day one on live. t...
any vendor would still need a currency
so you wouldn't just get "all legendary items day 1"
tribal blade
you could not do a vendor but still give the players agency on which lego they can pick
vale pine
or that
tribal blade
SL fixed that with torghast
vale pine
you basically had an vendor in sl
tribal blade
in essence yea
vale pine
in the end the problem space is clear
you want to remove the randomness from legendary aquisition to have a fair gameplay enviroment
how you do that?
There are a lot of ways
lilac stag
Then you had the 2h misery in DL
The well by week 15 you’ll get it LULZ
meanwhile our holy paladin gets it week 2
keen dome
It's too bad it won't be rememebred by most, but BfA did solve a lot of the Artifact issues. Singular item with stuff consumed directly. In the first patch they 'equalized' gain to solve the grind issue. You could go ham and be 2 - 3 levels higher than the median (Maybe 5?) and if youw ere below you got caught up quickly.
It's just Azerite sucked, as did a lot else. But the HoA itself was a good itteration on the formula on a mechanical level.
lilac stag
Our “non-legendary lengendary” daggers from Sylvanas.
tribal blade
bring back banshee's blight
grand wyvern
It's too bad it won't be rememebred by most, but BfA did solve a lot of the Arti...
but in legion you had artifact weapon, which were cool, grind was a price to pay, the neck in bfa who the shit wants to grind to have a shitty neck?
fallow nimbus
No, if your sqw is too low, then you can't queue an ability to fire immediately ...
That's true but not if you go general ping + atleast 100. It means you can queue an ability 100ms + ping ms before gcd ends. Everything happens before the gcd ends. It also means a higher queue can result in double triggers. Like a class with hasted gcd in remix with high haste. Imagine spamming icelance and you fire 2 lances back to back because your queue is 400 but gcd is as low as it can be.
lilac stag
death to goremaws
Death to Danse. That’s now blight. Fix goremaws you dolt.
keen dome
Death to Danse. That’s now blight. Fix goremaws you dolt. <:garf:132017303274389...
Goremaws is the enemy of me
lilac stag
time to block another
fallow nimbus
Make it increase with every dance use
left shale
any vendor would still need a currency
true. i dont think they like the look of it though. just a feeling. but definately a better way than "do lots of stuff and hope you dont get prydaz"
vale pine
i got the utility trinity first
it ment, 3 tiers of non competitive damage
just because you got unlucky
(2 tiers and a mini raid, still same result)
the decision was just taken too far out of the hand of the player
tho legion had a lot of good parts
which made up for the problems
tribal blade
it ment, 3 tiers of non competitive damage
ok yeah i can see why it had such a bad impact on you
my 1st lego was the one tha increased storm dmg with a stacking buff
which was not great in ST but it was still something
hazy breach
Fwiw he didnt factor in the sub specific stuff
tribal blade
i didn't realize how insane dks are gonna be defensively in midnight holy shit
tribal blade
Fwiw he didnt factor in the sub specific stuff
yeah he definitely didn't
no mention of fade
formal helm
i didn't realize how insane dks are gonna be defensively in midnight holy shit
weren't they pretty insane defensively in tww too?
tribal blade
weren't they pretty insane defensively in tww too?
yeah they were
but this is apparently a thing
which is uh
what
huh
excuse me
tribal blade
perma 18% dr
formal helm
tf is this
formal helm
okay but it says 4 secs remaining
tribal blade
i think it's their new rune weapon thing
tribal blade
yeah but he says it's perma uptime
fleet wharf
no mention of fade
he does mention fade, but yea, i think shadow maybe placed a bit too low
tribal blade
this is the first i heard of it so he could be wrong, i have no idea
tribal blade
he does mention fade, but yea, i think shadow maybe placed a bit too low
oh ok i missed it
he talks fast and monotone so i miss stuff he says sometimes haha
fleet wharf
if anything we should bitch about how some things just dont get dr'd by feint
but at least now I can go back and say I'm "skillful" for sometimes pressing feint and cloak
tribal blade
well the best thing is they won't be looking at rogue
everyone will be looking at dk 😉
formal helm
true
fleet wharf
true, we've achieved perma invisibility anyway
fleet wharf
perma invis on rog?!
it's like the invis the ring gives you. invis in the least helpful way
tribal blade
yeah i'm not gonna be pushing keys so it don't matter to me
hollow spear
The amount of time you mention that you won't be pushing keys makes me think that you might end up pushing keys, Prophet
tribal blade
if brew is gonna be meta
tribal blade
The amount of time you mention that you won't be pushing keys makes me think tha...
HAHA
true i am a broken clock
i'm just happy to have finally come to that decision and be at peace with it
hazy breach
Not entirely sure how he calculated some of the non-permanently active stuff but it should be something like this
fleet wharf
i'm just happy to have finally come to that decision and be at peace with it
I thought you didn't push s3 either, no?
tribal blade
I thought you didn't push s3 either, no?
i didn't yeah, but i was pushing for the first half
fleet wharf
aha, well gj on becoming sane
hollow spear
i'm just happy to have finally come to that decision and be at peace with it
I promise I won't drunk call her tonight
tribal blade
I promise I won't drunk call her tonight
lol
hollow spear
Not entirely sure how he calculated some of the non-permanently active stuff but...
Dk kinda hilariously broken, huh
fleet wharf
well we really should thank him because I have a feeling DKs are gonna have their legs broken before midnight launch
hazy breach
is our fade uptime higher than ~30% like in TWW
Its like 40-50%
tribal blade
well we really should thank him because I have a feeling DKs are gonna have thei...
i don't think so tbh
haughty mural
i think S1 will be a full phys comp season
what would that look like atm ?
besides surv/brew
fleet wharf
yea, I didn't know DKs were #2 behind mages on blizz favoritism meter
maybe I should roll an alt DK for midnight. hmm
tribal blade
what would that look like atm ?
honestly not sure, i'm just basing that on the fact that phys comp has finally been rising and then if brew is looking to be really good that's the opening
so brew, surv maybe, dk
fleet wharf
I would be very shocked if the meta comp includes surv though lmao
slate marlin
So brew druid hunter dk warr
tribal blade
or a better healer idk
slate marlin
Something lile that atm
fleet wharf
prolly throw in druid and run a sham?
languid pond
Why brew over prot warr?
tribal blade
yeah all i hear is about brew being really good
languid pond
Ahh so not like how they were in tww?
tribal blade
they got stronger with the changes
slate marlin
They they got a lot of cha ges
bright sundial
The only war you can bring is fury, cause arms got shot dead in the street
slate marlin
They are very very tanky
tribal blade
apparently they got defensively much stronger
slate marlin
And deal a lot lf dmg
languid pond
So far I haven’t had any good brews in keys up to 13s. They’ve been falling over and losing threat
tribal blade
that was always brew's niche was doing high dmg
but now that they're tanky too
AND bring a raid buff
hazy breach
Losing threat? With a sub rogue? 
languid pond
Not to me, to the mage damage 😂
slate marlin
But like any comp is pure bad speculation since theres a lot of tuning pending
tribal blade
i wouldn't focus on prepatch
languid pond
I’m solid #2 slot
tribal blade
it's not real
bright sundial
Ah yes the purple orbs mage lmao
I see him having fun meanwhile my sub has 0 energy 
languid pond
I’m still bouncing between assa and sub. So far sub seems more stable
haughty mural
throw in a warr spec for shout
yea probably - if warrior wouldnt be so down bad right now
tribal blade
yea probably - if warrior wouldnt be so down bad right now
yeah poor arms
haughty mural
if they wont slap a 30% aura on them till release
tribal blade
max is doing the 2nd half of specs today
hollow spear
Arms isn't doa
languid pond
Watch blizz smack the shit out of them on release day 😂
tribal blade
so we'll get to hear him not know anything about sub yet again
hollow spear
It's dead before arrival
haughty mural
true
languid pond
so we'll get to hear him not know anything about sub yet again
Is that normal for him!
?*
tribal blade
Is that normal for him!
yes
haughty mural
i might wanna bribe my RL to not put me on warrior duty in midnight
tribal blade
literally every single time he does a video on spec changes
he gets to sub, starts to read it and then 10 seconds in goes "i don't know what any of this means" and then goes to the next spec
crystal bone
ah yes, the classic max tier list before launch. many sandbags are taken place here
tribal blade
max loves sin so that's the only rogue spec he plays
lilac stag
he legit doesn’t give a fuck about sub. Whenever he was rogue it was assa
tribal blade
this wouldn't be such an issue if it wasn't for the fact that blizz definitely listens to him
and does things he says
lilac stag
Priority dmg, no? Shut up. Move along. Next spec.
languid pond
I don’t really listen to his tier list very often tbh. I used to listen to quazii and critcake but quaziis..well ya know
lilac stag
Max usually has devs in the stream, which is the issue