subtlety

[honest surge]

Yea

[swift tinsel]

but Blizz really, really, really wants us to cast Eviscerate in aoe

[grand wyvern]

do we already do that or just after mass casualty buff goes live?

[swift tinsel]

hence the Mass Casualty buff

[lilac stag]

Spices up the rotation. 3 buttons instead of 2.

[honest surge]

Lol

[swift tinsel]

pretty sure its when the Mass buff goes live

so what, next week

[honest surge]

makes sence now, wondered y

[swift tinsel]

yeah bc otherwise we'd just sit on 3 stacks of mark with DN up until the DN buff expires and we go back to consuming those marks with BP

maybe one day blizz will change all of that (doubtful, so, so doubtful)

https://tenor.com/view/aragorn-but-notthis-day-lotr-gif-14120761

they want their homogenized aoe rotations between hero trees

"storm+bp until your Eviscerate buff thing happens then do that"

[honest surge]

was gonna say, its just like trickster

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'm positive that was intentional

[grand wyvern]

trickster tricks them by macroing coupe to bp lul

[honest surge]

Coup instead of DN

[lilac stag]

What’s funny is the OBR does the eviscerate waving, so I’m just going to assume that’s what they want no matter how much we try to push it away

[swift tinsel]

bc with the nimble change they're the same

effectively

[swift tinsel]

if Evisc became Darknest Night we'd do that for DS too lmao

which, all things considered, I'm surprised they didn't do that

make it replace Evisc

[honest surge]

Rip Nimmble

[swift tinsel]

accessibility

[honest surge]

[lilac stag]

Nimble can get tossed in the bin

At least note there’s an actual aoe rotation

[honest surge]

So whats the go to atm in Prepatch? Ive been running stalker in m+ but DN feels terrible

[grand wyvern]

i didn't like nimble because it made us so strong on cleave we had to be shit on ST

[hazy breach]

Yeah thats deathstalker for you, nothing changing on that end

[swift tinsel]

now that I've put it out there I'm afraid they're gonna do this lol

[honest surge]

Damn

[swift tinsel]

realz please don't

I beg

[warm marlin]

burst cleave is a lot stronger now that it's concentrated in coup

could be dangerous

in blades that thing is cleaving at 95% value

[hazy breach]

Keeping the shadow blades buff while removing the evis part is truly a blizzard manoeuvre

[alpine wraith]

what i want to do a weekly raffle is if they will fix apex with sec tech

or shadowed with many things

[serene notch]

Was watching @plush roost, looks like we have some min max things we can do like storm and BP inside CDs in ST. Any other min maxing adjustments found?

[alpine wraith]

begin with storm if not at full cp to avoid input lag with a macro

and sec tech+dance macro too

[upbeat garden]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[radiant swift]

is there any instance where you would send shadow dance and stec not imedietly after? are there cases on beta where u have to send it 2nd or later?

[upbeat smelt]

Wow that just completely removes my need to track when Coop is available, because on ST in already hitting Eviscerate anyways.

[haughty mural]

But muh buttons scath

[plush roost]

The bp is only with potent powder at high mastery

Since it can do like 15k less than evis but lashe makes up for it

[alpine wraith]

you could have some mastery procs and track those to use for ST

but tbh i find funnier having haste procs and trying to snipe dances

stack mastery but sometimes get random 2 secs of extra dance

[dry badger]

So we are legit building haste now? Just starting to catch back up

[torn tide]

why does trickster combinr coup and bp?

[tribal blade]

how bout the storm in ST

any conditions on that

[alpine wraith]

storm in st is when you dont have cp instead of strike to not lose dmg to lag

[tribal blade]

ahhhh ok

oh i should definitly set that up with my ms

[plush roost]

yeah its less relevant if youre on high haste tho since u wanna start at full cp

[tribal blade]

cool

[plush roost]

but having high haste early on may not be achievable, and its debatable if 200, 578 or 687 are ideal

i have a suspicion that 200 haste is a lot better than people are gonna realize

[tribal blade]

interesting

[winter moon]

quick question, can unyielding netherprism be tracked anymore by arcui or tellmewhen? I am guessing not while in combat.

[alpine wraith]

it is also a gearing thing

maybe other classes/specs

want the haste pieces

and we can coast and get the mastery/crit ones

and only some haste on jewelry etc better

because people also forget as soon as second target comes in

BP and potent poweder

go BRRRRRRRRR

and i cant remember 1 last boss in the last like 10 years since blackhand where you had super ST

[eager latch]

me when i'm cold

[lilac stag]

It’s almost like blizzard just can’t win or something. Sub rogues are fickle.

[jolly crescent]

How can this macro even function?:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

Is coup off the global CD?

Looks like a good ol' TBC macro 🙂

[bleak night]

it'll just cast coup if its available and if it isnt it casts bp

[lilac stag]

it uses the first available ability

Has nothing to do with the gcd

[jolly crescent]

But that doesn't normally function for any other ability ...
Like:

/use secret technique
/use eviscerate

Wont use eviscerate when ST is on cooldown

it only tries the first ability?

[swift tinsel]

are both sub and sin locked to 1sec gcd

[bleak night]

yes

[swift tinsel]

thought so ty

[bleak night]

all energy specs that arent named outlaw

[lilac stag]

It’s just feels like it’s more than 1 second because 40 apm boomer spec

[swift tinsel]

lol someone on the forums is saying rogue has the fastest gcd cooldown

[lilac stag]

outside of lust that’s likely accurate

[bleak night]

fastest baseline yeah

normally takes lust/pi to put people over

[lilac stag]

Outlaw can hit .7 I think with ar

[swift tinsel]

ye something like that

[lilac stag]

Sub and Outlaw are higher paced 1 sec gcd due to the flood of energy. Ww, feral, assa are slower pacing. Same gcd, with the exception of Outlaw during AR

[swift tinsel]

yeah I feel like I personally feel that most on ww

since its 60 energy

[warm marlin]

it is because coup doesnt exist until it procs

so there is no spell to cast, i.e. it acts like a macro that just says /cast bp. when coup procs, all of a sudden it's a macro that just says /cast coup

[short radish]

incl monk?

[bleak night]

should be yeah

[short radish]

[chrome palm]

thats why focus =/= energy

even though they serve the same purpose

[short radish]

well you can actively generate focus as well

right?

[chrome palm]

yeah

you can generate energy as well of course

[short radish]

not actively though

outside tea

its just refunds

[chrome palm]

blade rush?

i mean, youre right there

not to be semantic

[short radish]

[chrome palm]

it has more generating gameplay than energy

[short radish]

yeah\

[chrome palm]

but i think the main difference is the gcd thing

and its not 🟡 most importantly

[bleak night]

yeah i think the color is the most important bit

[chrome palm]

never recolor your focus bar, worst mistake of my life

[short radish]

[chrome palm]

[odd sandal]

I know I'm missing something, but why are we slamming dance with low combo points with deathstalker?

[jolly sleet]

not sure about that either, we are running the same build apart from hero talents so the answer must be somewhere in the deathstalker tree

[alpine wraith]

it is not that you slam with low combo points

just that in trickster it is better to begin with high combo points

you can do either

in DS

it does not really care

[idle cobalt]

is it okay to have a sword off hand as sub?

[tepid trellis]

nope

!of

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[meager nymph]

yeah I specced into sub for the first time since the new patch came out, just to check it out

i struggled to fill my action bars lol

[torn tide]

loll i think it looked just as empty for fuu and eleem when they filled out wowhead and icyveins

and stealthi for method

i can imagine them looking at what to type and add in when the spec is just a 2 button rotation now

[meager nymph]

As a whole I quite like the changes that blizz made to outlaw and assassin, especially with how they consolidated assassinaton's aoe
but idk man, these sub changes

I remember when Sub was a super advanced dps spec back in cata, so advance that many raiders avoided playing it, though it was great on Spine
hard to believe that this is still the same spec lol

[warm forum]

!addon

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[plush roost]

Puzzle box sub will be good and i hate to break it to everyone but it may be used in raid too.

This is your words of wise warning

The box approaches

[bleak night]

i rerolled just so i wouldnt use the box

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1402494842885640305/1442214716998156298/puzzlebox.gif?ex=698827df&is=6986d65f&hm=43416d95406ef7d751bbc9922c787e3b303f5c42179d8d7db6ed767b7e6752ac&

[ebon tiger]

I think the telephone trinket has tempered me to being okay with basically anything else

[quartz tartan]

hello couls someone answer me this please

Deathstalker - Preferes to start Shadow Dance with low combo points.

I have a macro for SD with ST and I use it when I have full combo points, but does anyone know if I miss out with damage if I would use SD without combo points instead

[lilac stag]

I look forward to seeing all of your orange parses with how easy the spec is.

[lilac stag]

Shadow Dance allow you to enter “dance”. The number of combo point you enter with just determines what you do as you enter dance.

[tulip light]

why is puzzle box so "hated" ? never played when it was used

[lilac stag]

2 second cast time

[tulip light]

ah well

i can spare 2sec of pressing backstab to cast it before a dance 😄

[shadow crag]

do we delay Shadow Dance if Secret technique or shadowblades isnt rdy? guess depends on how far off they are?

[tulip light]

you should always have a dance ready for sectech. you hold dance + sectech if blades are < 10s off to fit 2x dance in blades window

[shadow crag]

shadow dance having a fixed CD really catches me off guard. I am definitely casting my 2 charges to soon when Shadowblades is on CD.

[tribal blade]

it doesn't sound like much but it's a lot

can you imagine doing dimmy with a 2 sec cast time trinket

shit would be cooked

[quartz tartan]

but we never use shadow dance if not blades or secret is up right?

[tulip light]

i guess i will learn to hate it very fast 😄

@quartz tartan yup. only if u would overcap but at the moment that shouldnt be the case from what i have seen playing

[quartz tartan]

okey:)

[tulip light]

you can also check the faq - has nice infos regarding rotation, cooldowns etc! 😄

[limpid sage]

I actually don’t think Puzzle Box is that bad given we’re an energy spec + don’t ramp anymore

[tribal blade]

yeah it'll def be easier to use than before

but i just meant more so in terms of when sending cds are so tight on timers

[limpid sage]

Also can’t you kinda make it 1 sec cast by using a gcd just before pressing it?

I don’t remember if that’s how it works but iirc I did that on my warr back then

[limpid sage]

Ah ye wouldn’t be usable

[tribal blade]

actually not sure if you could cast the trinket while flying to dimmy or falling into P3

but still

it would be so horrible

[keen dome]

Def not falling since you'd count as 'moving' which would interrupt (most) casts I'd bet.

[tribal blade]

yeah probably

[keen dome]

Maybe you pop it a second before Xal grabs you on the second asteroid

Which would waste a lot of time but

Doesn't seem worth it in this hypothetical scenario

[pallid jackal]

In their attempt of making it easier, haven't they made it harder?

Has anyone created a WA-like cooldown/buff tracker for trinkets like Unyielding Netherprism and Araz's Ritual Forge? Very curious

I am using cooldown manager addon currently

[vale pine]

exactly

good morning lovely people

[sullen hare]

Gm

It's bed time for me though because the chili is done cooking

[vale pine]

btw. the wowhead talent calc now works correct for the level cap, so can be used to prepear talens

[vale pine]

good night ^^

[haughty mural]

true that
did you already try the new free qui btw ?

[pallid jackal]

Morning

[fleet acorn]

anyone got the details class icons without black border around or knows where i can get them? custom texture

[pallid jackal]

max heroic netherprism and Araz's forge is still simming better than the ticking sack at 170. Bug or intended?

[tulip light]

for me prism isnt good in any combination. try simming 1,5min fights

5mins arent realistic anymore

[pallid jackal]

Good tip, thanks

Why 1,5 though? Most mythic fights last longer right

[tulip light]

for me most mythic stuff is around 1:30 fwiw - sims right now are for the memes anyways

[pallid jackal]

I see indeed that 1.5 is more accurate.

[upbeat garden]

I went to raid with 30% vers ,41% haste ,7x% mastery with ticking sack and lily and I did better than with antenna and lily or antenna and prism

[pallid jackal]

Yeah I think I am getting the ticking sack then

with my final coin

[tulip light]

what else do you have access to?

forge + prjector is also very nice

[pallid jackal]

I've got the sack now and forge hc 8/8

165 ilvl

[tribal blade]

dimmy is the only mythic fight currently where you get more than 2 cd sets

most are either 1-2

[pallid jackal]

So you actually gem for haste? Is that a big difference?

I've got 131% mastery at the moment

[upbeat garden]

For raid u dont need that much mastery imho

[torn tide]

how much crit do we need btw?

[granite trench]

hi where can i find the beta m+ talents to use?

[tulip light]

there isnt any amount we "need" - currently only haste about 35% (raid) after that sim best items

[torn tide]

wew 35

and how much for mythic?

[tulip light]

~15%

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/856897746128207892

[torn tide]

oh oops i didnt see that in the faq, thanks

[pallid jackal]

I find it hard to get 35% haste, or I gotta redo my crafting items

Will I do that hmm, in a group with a pug for 6/8m about to start

[quartz tartan]

hey when should i wait to use shadow dance to get 2 under shadow blades window, wowhead says if you have 10s left on shadow blades cd then you should wait, but it feels like 10s is too little to get both 2 back

[fierce cedar]

Someone have any good talents for beta?

[hazy breach]

The same as on live

Except you pick the apex talents

[iron whale]

wait... Shadow Dance now doesn't increase damage dealt?
which means... the only reason I use it is to unlock Shadowstrike?

[hazy breach]

It does increase damage dealt

[iron whale]

it does?

[full bobcat]

hey! can someone explain why is better to use SS here instead ST?

[torn tide]

exactly lol, lucky i dont do raid

[vale pine]

because you start dance with low combo points

the benefit of a macro like this is the faster use of your first spell in shadow dance

which is good to not lose a global cooldown in shadow dance

the entire problem exists because deepening shadows can extend it just by a little, which is enough to fit in one more global

but any delay in the use of your first ability can lower that "little" amount

spell queue takes care after the first use, so the first use is the most important to get right

to explain what spell queue does

it basically allows you to put a spell in a queue, which will be cast once the gcd is over

the default setting is 400 ms which means, you can queue up spells 0.4 sec before the gcd ends

gcd = global cooldown.
Spells on rogue cause a global cooldown of exactly 1 sec
(backstab, strike, storm, secret technique, black powder)

[full bobcat]

I get it, ty for the explanation

but if you use it (the macro with ST) right after shadowstrike from stealth, there is no need to use because you would be at full combo points

right?

[vale pine]

if you want to strike-dance

then you would use the firts macro

so strike-dance+secret(macro)

but if you do the regular opener

strike-evis-dance+storm(macro)

[full bobcat]

oh okay

what's the benefit from using evis there and then get on cds?

[vale pine]

as mentioend, trickster does like to start dance with full combo points, so the secret macro works well for it

while deathstalker likes low combo points

which means the storm macro is better for deathstalker

[vale pine]

you get slice and dice up

but both is fine

[full bobcat]

right

thanks for answering

[vale pine]

no problem, if you have more questions, just ask

[void ocean]

lol did Metzen rly say "I wish we hadnt called it Warcraft. It sounds intimidating" ...

[vale pine]

yes, but

https://x.com/TaliesinEvitel/status/2019875586915913950?s=20

Xaliesin & Evitel (@TaliesinEvitel)

The most important part of the Chris Metzen "I wish we hadn't called it Warcraft" quote, is that Holly is DISAGREEING with him. That's why she brings it up.

To disagree with it.

X · Feb 6, 2026, 8:47 PM

[void ocean]

yea but in practice it looks more like she's agreeing

or whoever is in charge of making waypoints for wow

[vale pine]

There is some trueth in what they say

the main takeaways for me are:

• They know wow had the potential to be better (why they say the ip is under utialized)
• (especially holly) sees oppotunity to create multiple content streams by adding new content to classic wow

[void ocean]

Im not sure if I see "eye to eye" with them what being better means

Imho, content wise, it feels like they have their favourite child, and its not "the old way of wow"

Im afraid in 1-2 expansions we wont even kill bosses, we will just have a dialogue with em until they realise they were wrong, and then we all /dance

[slate marlin]

So we just level charisma like its fallout 4

[void ocean]

gotta farm that 647th colour for my favourite mount or cloak

[slate marlin]

Dont have to farm, just pass the speech check

[pallid jackal]

Why do I hear here so many people playing trickster when top 100 is all deathstalker?

[bold brook]

Games are not made for gamers anymore, they are made for everyone

[void ocean]

top 100 of what

[void ocean]

I see that, Im just wondering if that approach ever worked in the past

[vale pine]

I am with you, wow continues to chase a player archetype i am not sure exists

[void ocean]

Was there ever an art form designed to be accepted by vast masses

[vale pine]

all of twitter is extremely pissed at the interview, and i am not even sure the majority even watched it

i did, and it was honestly very vague, non telling and boring

bottom line is, people want the game to focus on the core parts most players play the game for

we will sadly need to see how well this works out in midnight

[radiant swift]

quick question to the whole macro thing. Is fitting all globals into Dance more important, than covering the full lenght of Blades? Would u then generaly go full cp into blades + pot + trinket -> Dance -> stec?

[vale pine]

you would want to dance back to back

in blades

[radiant swift]

obv but what about the full blades coverage

if u dont macro blades, trinket and pot together, u lose idk about 1 sec of it?

does that just not matter as much?

[wispy pebble]

twitter is always extremely pissed. Literall shithole of a platform

like unironically i dont understand how people get this pissed over a cinematic not being grim and full of war when its about housing

Then you have people saying "Blabla we need faction war back" as if that wouldnt be boring for 15 years straight

[vale pine]

I think it's a legitimate concern, but nothing exactly new

[wispy pebble]

i think its blown way out of proportion. A housing cinematic is not the identity of the game. Especially with the Midnight cinematic being a fight again. TWW cinematic wouldve been a way better target for this outrage than the housing cinematic

[void ocean]

Well if its done with 0 thinking the exact same way it has been done for a while, then yes, it would be boring

[pallid jackal]

Like of logs, say Loom top 100

[tribal blade]

trickster becomes better when we get apex

[void ocean]

Do we care bout logs in prepatch? Im not sure

[wispy pebble]

Imo if the factions were still fighting each other with how WoW Lore is built up there would be valid criticism that the leaders are absolute monkeys.

"Ah were are under threat by demons and voidlords? Lets fight among each other again"

[void ocean]

Yea, but how ingenious is to just have "portal to some unknown zone -> unknown zone -> raid with the badguy of the season"

Most of whom we never hear again

[tribal blade]

it's interesting to hear this side of the conversation from people not really into housing

me and almost everyone in my guild is really into housing and it's very expansive

[wispy pebble]

I think this is way better criticism than "WoW has become woke where are my infights" . I agree with you

[lusty mango]

The Interview was alot of corporate talk, but I think most are pissed that Metzen said, that he regrets to call the game "War"craft.

[haughty mural]

as previous world rank 1 player, our guy bjorn does care about prepatch logs

[void ocean]

My apologies

[tribal blade]

prob confusing for some people in this channel hearing discussion about sub from both prepatch and beta mixed together haha

[lilac stag]

I’m not into hosing. I also appreciate their communication with a content video that isn’t just wait until bliz con. People just want to rage.

[hazy breach]

Which is a very silly thing to be upset about. Yeah theres for sure better things to name your franchise than warcraft

He didnt say he hate it or that its a bad name, just that theres probably better names

[slate marlin]

honestly i agree, we ask for communication and we got it

[void ocean]

No, he said its intimidating

I find funny someone could be intimidated by that

[hazy breach]

How does that in any way contradict what i said

[slate marlin]

the name is very fitting tho, its based on warcraft, so world of warcraft, how would you have called it back in 2004?

[wispy pebble]

I mean it kinda is. But not in a way that people are scared to play. They just get the wrong idea of what the game is

[tribal blade]

wow is an iconic name

[wispy pebble]

thrallcraft

[hazy breach]

Well he meant naming warcraft 1

Not wow

[slate marlin]

idk i love the name

i dont get the intimidating thing

[void ocean]

I mean...

Just

😂

Are we even discussing the intimidating psrt

[lilac stag]

He’s not alone in that statement. It’s a perception outside of clique gaming circles.

Shit - WWE used to have “raw is War” as a tagline and dropped that due to changing landscapes and attempting to be me family approachable.

We used to kill nazi in wolfenstein. Entertainment / Gaming changes

[plush roost]

I wonder what they would have went with otherwise

[lilac stag]

Bob the Builder

[slate marlin]

boar hunting simulator

[tribal blade]

hello kitty island adventure

[wispy pebble]

isnt wolvenstein still killing nazis?

[tribal blade]

wolfenstein was a badass game

almost as badass as doom

[lilac stag]

No, now it’s Nazi’s killing Americans.

[tribal blade]

the new room in my house is based on doom

[slate marlin]

only bad thing about wolfenstein was wheelchair controls

they still haunt me

[plush roost]

Haha yaya but if youre blizzard and on the cutting room floor of names, what do u call it

[void ocean]

Fckin Heinrich III

Or it was I

Forgot, long time ago

[tribal blade]

probably something boring like "Heroes of Azeroth"

[plush roost]

Late 90s rts, we have command and conquer age of empire, warhammer 40k

[wispy pebble]

Do you think warcraft isnt a boring name without the connection to the game?

[plush roost]

See idk about this warcraft 1 didnt really have the whole heroes of azeroth thing going yet

[tribal blade]

nah i like it

[slate marlin]

same

[tribal blade]

oh right

yeah i'm dumb

[plush roost]

They could have just called it orcs vs humans ig

[tribal blade]

i keep thinking the whole thing is refering to wow

[wispy pebble]

i think warcraft is a shit name. Especially World of Warcraft

Its just iconic because the games were successful

[void ocean]

Thats the laziest name ever

[plush roost]

This is the age of "Heroes of Might and Magic 3"

(Based game btw)

[lilac stag]

It could have been something epic like OgreQuest

[plush roost]

Well u say that

[void ocean]

Like the idea of this game is war between orcs n humans, how should we name it

[tribal blade]

i can't speak on warcraft, but back when i started the game everyone was super stoked on wow, i don't remember anyone having an issue with the name

[wispy pebble]

Most successful games are actually really boring names. Like what the fuck is League of Legends lmao

[plush roost]

But adventurequest was quite big

[lilac stag]

EverQuest was huge

[plush roost]

League of Legends: Clash of Fates, mind you

[slate marlin]

the name of the game is whatever anyway

[wispy pebble]

Because naming barely matters

You just needed a good cover art and the name was whatever

[slate marlin]

if you have called league of legends summoner rift i dont think it would have made much of a difference in its success

[plush roost]

Ehhh maybe

[void ocean]

Dota 😂

[plush roost]

Tri-code abbreviations actually matter a ton

[tribal blade]

the absolutely insane cinematic trailer was also a massive draw

[plush roost]

Being able to call somethinf WoW, LoL, LCS, VAL, C&C

[tribal blade]

that original wow trailer is amazing

[void ocean]

Like how many ppl dont even know what dota stands for

[wispy pebble]

But riot naming is questionable anyways. Their highest rank is called challenger. Who the fuck do they challenge and why is it not called legend

[plush roost]

Challenging pro players iirc was the logic

[slate marlin]

they challenge the ban system when they have an inting nunu

maybe he doesnt like the name of the game bc now wow has housing and more "casual" stuff and someone that wants to do that kind of stuff wont imagine doing it in a game called warcraft

[void ocean]

So World of Everything

[lilac stag]

There likely are better names out there, especially not directly saying war in the name. Looking back it’s something he would change? Ok

Dark Age of Camelot was very war based, but the name itself was way more approachable at a time where video game violence was taking root in society. Gaming wasn’t main stream.

[void ocean]

Would be more appropriate

[wispy pebble]

i mean isnt every MMO world of evertyhing?

sorry mmorpg*

[void ocean]

Well wow wasnt for a solid amount of time

[slate marlin]

wow was just level-dungeon-raid for a long time

[plush roost]

I mean idk, most kids in the 90s see names like Warcraft and think "that sounds cool" and then see a name like Everquest "meh"

[lilac stag]

and it’s not the kids paying for it

Guess which the parents are going to gravitate towards

[hazy breach]

Most middleschool boys in the 90s*

[plush roost]

Speak for yourself, Warcraft and warhammer were very popular among my childhood demographic.

And nintendo stuff

Maybe i just grew up in a nerdy area lmfao

[wispy pebble]

I just remembered this banger lmao

[slate marlin]

No way

[hazy breach]

What

[plush roost]

Yeah not even joking, someone got their friends into it, then it just spread like crazy

Granted my age frame isnt wc1 but wc3 era

[wispy pebble]

tbf most people that tried wow actually liked it. People just didnt try it because it was cringe 😄

[plush roost]

Didnt even mean wow haha, i meant wc3 and warhammer40k

[wispy pebble]

Like gaming was the literall devil back then

[tribal blade]

i remember meeting up with friends in 2010 and there was a guy there who was a gamer, he asked me what i played and i said "WoW" and he started giving me shit (not in the friendly way) because he liked diablo

and apprently wow players are cringe

i couldn't believe i was experiencing this IRL

[wispy pebble]

Surely diablo players arent

[plush roost]

I think in 2010 i was playing cod already ngl

[hazy breach]

Im confused how this is opposed to what i said about the name not being appealing to girls

[void ocean]

I played cod in like 2006.

[tribal blade]

truee

[void ocean]

Cod II

[plush roost]

Honestly. The middleschool is what my brain latched onto. Not the girls/boys part

Fair enough lmfao

[tribal blade]

"We shouldn't have named our game Call of Duty because abbreviated everyone thinks people are talking about fish"

[void ocean]

I was thinking cash on delivery

[wispy pebble]

Codfish mentioned

[void ocean]

Literally mailing game

U play a FedEx guy

[tribal blade]

lol that reminds me of the game postal

[wispy pebble]

Lego Racers was the best game ever created

[void ocean]

Have dlc u get stuck on an island with a volleyball

[wispy pebble]

i once bought a taxi game for 5€ because the cover said NFS and it was a really weird fake haha

[void ocean]

Taxi Crazy

[torn tide]

how much crit do i need for doing M+ ?

[void ocean]

Oh boi

[wispy pebble]

Oh look someone wants to talk about sub rogue in our back in my days discussion channel

[void ocean]

Honestly, read the room 😂

[torn tide]

sorry

[alpine wraith]

you dont really need crit

just get some haste then go full mastery

but if you are in doubt you could sim

[void ocean]

Hacha are u intimidated by the word Warcraft

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/crazy-taxi-sega-driving-game-taxi-game-gif-1496623433166377290

Crazy Taxi

[void ocean]

Yup

Loved it

[pallid jackal]

Bit of an odd question, but since I use no portrait, how do I leave the group after say an m+?

[void ocean]

/gquit

[pallid jackal]

😛

[void ocean]

Thats group quit

[pallid jackal]

Isn't that leave guild?

[void ocean]

It is

Dont try it

Jokes aside, try rightclicking on that "eye"

Lfg status or w/e is the name

Also party frame should work, no?

[hazy breach]

You click your healthbar

Its the exact same thing

Or your party frame

[lilac stag]

Warcraft? The game has been bastardized into feels and panic.

Makes memes not war(craft).

[pallid jackal]

I use sensei bars, and it doesn't work 😮

Since I've just got this:

[lilac stag]

Sensei is a resource bar, not a player frame

Your player frame is completely removed, not just the portrait.

[haughty mural]

scath did you try it out btw - the new version of qui ?

[pallid jackal]

It does look pretty clean. I saw Charrend have it like this as well. Curious then how to fix it

but I got it now, might need to upgrade UI, and just turn on player frame for when I want to leave

thanks :))

[lilac stag]

No. Had stuff come up. Hopefully today

[haughty mural]

Alright 🙂

[jolly crescent]

does the 25% extra damage from shadowstrike only occur in stealth, or always when behind the enemy?

[hazy breach]

Only in stealth stealth, so not shadow dance

[vale pine]

vanish counts as stealth too (just a little extra information)

[lilac stag]

[full bobcat]

@vale pine why is that deathstalker wants to enter dance at low cp and trickster at full cp?

[vale pine]

not entirely sure, but it sims better

[lilac stag]

the robot is just trying to make DS less appealing than it already is. Good robot.

[full bobcat]

But it’s a very notable optimization or just breadcrumbs?

[vale pine]

it becomes more valuable in midnight

currently not that big of a deal

but content atm is also easy, so play the way that works best for you

[full bobcat]

Apex things?

[vale pine]

yes

apex talents basially makes dance even stronger

so more optimizations will focus on providing better setups for shadow dance

while in pre patch, stacking haste and getting as many dances out as possible is in general better

[distant sage]

@vale pine was sub really that good on beta to recive 8% dps nerf

[vale pine]

it was one of the good performing specs, i don't think it was over-performing

tuning hasn't ended, so the nerf is in general irrelevant

we will see more nerfs and buffs over time

btw. its always like this

every patch or new xpac cycle will have a lot of tuning initially

then another tuning pass at the start of a tier

it is why the quetsion "what looks best/will be best during the first raid" or early tier lists are complete nonesense

we look at at least 2 more tuning passes before this happens, and nobody can predict their impact

[lilac stag]

I predict: priest -> shaman blue posts.

[random ruin]

DS or Trickster for M+?

[sullen hare]

Trickster doesn't have to deal with ds' stupid-ass mark so that's already a leg up

[random ruin]

I forgor

you hit someone give them mark

and then you hit them 3 more times or what

[torn tide]

all buffs for sub rogue before midnight, believe

[jolly crescent]

When trying to fit 6 globals into shadowdance I need 6.28s duration (6.2s not enough) or 6.6s (6.5s not enough) with Coup de Grace.
Is this normal, or should I change my setup somehow?

[chrome palm]

Your first global should always be a macro with either secret technique (high combo points) or shuriken storm (low combo points), otherwise there will be a delay

[hazy breach]

Coup has a 1.2s gcd

[jolly crescent]

Using shruiken ... even in single target?

[chrome palm]

the game does not allow you to macro shadow strike to shadow dance, so shuriken storm is the next best option, which is better than delaying your global

of course you can macro it it just wont work

its kinda up in the air but it generally seems preferred to start at high combo points with secret technique

[jolly crescent]

What if I'm just a real life ninja who can push shadowstrike 0.01s after shadow dance ... would this get around that issue?

[hazy breach]

No because you literally cant

[chrome palm]

unfortunately the game does not allow you to be a real life ninja

there is a in game lag when changing stances (entering stealth / dance)

[bleak valve]

Anyone have an idea how pugging as rogue in m plus is going to be (sub or outlaw), really want to spend alot of time with rogue on s1 but worried about queue simulator

[chrome palm]

if sub/outlaw isnt considered meta then pugging as rogue will be awful

no one wants a useless class unless it just does the most damage

[jolly crescent]

So that means that the stealth requiring abilities (shadowstrike/cheap shot) delays the rotation by 0.2ish seconds, whereas no stealth abilities (gouge/evis/kidney/ect) can be used right away?

So if my haste is right on the breakpoint I will save a shadow dance global by starting with a non-stealth ability?

But if I got a bit longer duration than is needed for the breakpoint (like 6.28s) then I can start with any ability?

With coup adding 0.2s to said breakpoint.

(or 0.3s in my experience)

Is all that correct?

[vale pine]

#1065728795455266888 message

you can read up on it in the tc channel, i tested it in game via video capture

[prisma epoch]

Hi everyone! Sorry I cannot find a matching topic for my question, so I have to ask it here. Are there any addons that are working in pre-patch that warns you when you are not stealthed or has an extra effect when you are stealthed?

[lilac stag]

I do enjoy some delay conversation talk actually took us down the video replay route for data.

[vale pine]

whatever tool works best for the task

[jolly crescent]

Yeah this seems to agree completely with my experience.

6.07s is indeed enough if I start with non-stealth ability, like Gouge:

/use [mod:shift] Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=2 Gouge, Eviscerate, Shadowstrike, Eviscerate, Shadowstrike, Eviscerate, Shadowstrike, done

But if I want to start with Shadowstrike/Cheap shot, then it is neccessary to add the stance latency for a total of 6.27s. And an additional 0.3s for Coup for some reason, eventhough the gloabl should be only 0.2s longer.

[vale pine]

please consider how tight that is

there is input latency, a slight variation in ping, etc

so having 0.0x sec of time is problematic

[jolly crescent]

spellqueuewindow 😛

[vale pine]

you still rely on server tick rates

[left ledge]

Yeah this isn’t a “is he him” moment

It’s just not possible

[vale pine]

well its more about reliability

maybe you get it 50% of the time?

maybe 30%

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s considering we enter dance on the dot of the gcd right

[vale pine]

the entire idea of the trade offs with macros is, to have it work 100% of the time

so you don't rely on chance

its a deliered trade off

[dry plank]

It’ll be awful. Prepare mage for m+ or dk if melee

[vale pine]

but this also means, if you feel confident enough

to not need it

its perfectly fine to not use it

just use common sense, and maybe test a bit on dummy

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean just go hit a dummy with each variation and count your gcds in dance

[radiant swift]

do you then on opener also go strike - evis - build cp then into opener, opener being the whole Dance/stec etc?

[left ledge]

True that

[vale pine]

you can strike-evis

[sullen hare]

Every new poster I see in here with a cursed rotation macro just means that my parses will look even better come raid release

[vale pine]

vanish-strike-dance

which is perfetcly fine

[vale pine]

to be fair i think the macro can make learning easier

like for trickster

just use secret in the macro

then dance with full cp when secret is ready

boom you already play sub 95% correct

also one less keybind

[radiant swift]

since its so important with the delays u send everything else before being blades, pots and trinkets?

[jolly sleet]

i love my macro #showtooltip /use [mod] 13 /use [mod] Potion tempérée /cast Danse de l’ombre /cast [mod] Lames de l’ombre /cast Technique secrète
only dance at full cp with this one and boom

done

fuck i frenched it

[vale pine]

maybe the inverse is more practical

just put nomod everywhere

[sullen hare]

When you're just pressing one button?

Yeah I agree that simple macros are fine like dance+sectec but a while cast sequence macro for the entirety of a dance? Miss me with that

[vale pine]

and then when you press any mod key

you don't use secret/blades

[jolly sleet]

oh never thought bout it, but yup it makes sense

I also have a /cast [mod] Dance /cast evisc in case i need to dance with a non sec tech (i.e. the second dance in blades)

hence the macro above, they cover all my needs

but tbh if sec tech is not ready it just fires the dance without evisc which is fine too, I just feel more at ease when i'm spamming evisc during dance I dont need to change the button to dance and thats goat

[vale pine]

you can play sub on an xbox controller

3 buttons + 1 modifier key

[jolly sleet]

thats both sad and ok I guess

[random ruin]

4th button is jump c:

lol

[jolly sleet]

I mean I've learned that "many" button dont make good and meaningful buttons

[vale pine]

a lot of good games don't have super high button counts

[radiant swift]

how does this work

[vale pine]

wdym

you have one button for builder

one for finisher

and a cooldown button

[jolly sleet]

ok its simple : if you press any modifier while pressing the button, it fires EVERYTHING, but if you dont press anything beside the button it fires just dance then sec tech

[vale pine]

and need a modifier key to siwtch between aoe and st

[latent finch]

You could do that already this tier. Its just more of a hustle

[radiant swift]

t f thats dope

[chrome palm]

ah yes my technique secrète

[jolly sleet]

really people should know how to do basic macros I've learned a lot with this page
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Macro_conditionals

I have a cursed "all in one flight macro" too that allows to mount up, ascend, speed up and turbo with a single button and a modifier

[lilac stag]

The hoops people will jump through to not press buttons is

[vale pine]

i use some cursed macros

[sullen hare]

All three buttons we have

[lilac stag]

got buffed?

[jolly sleet]

/cast [noflying,mod] Sprint; [nocombat,flyable,noflying] SKYRIDING MOUNT; [flyable,noflying] Skyward Ascent;[flying,mod]Whirling Surge; [flying] Surge Forward; Sprint```
Here, if anyone is as lazy as I am

[vale pine]

my wildest macro

[jolly sleet]

this one is really cursed

[vale pine]

time to get flamed from pvp players

[jolly sleet]

haha i have one like that too

[vale pine]

to go back to the entire "difficulty" vs "button count" topic

nintendo is a very good example of a company that manages to do a good balance in this department

e.g. super mario 64 is easy to understand because you only have a few button counts

[jolly sleet]

/cast [nocombat,stealth] Sap; [stealth] Cheap shot; [mod] Kidney shot; Kick this one is my go to cc macro, I sometime use it with blind on [mod:alt]

[vale pine]

but if you want to speedrun, the movement alone is already a thing you can min/max a lot

or super smash bros

its a fighting game that cuts out all he combos street fighter/tekken/etc uses

and still manages to have a high amount of skill expression

[jolly sleet]

thats what I mean "meaningful" buttons : when they hold a lot a complexity and gameplay that allow skill expression

[vale pine]

i mean, there is a certain irony

because midnight does actively remove buttons and talents with gameplay impact

almost all of the optimizations, including the one around macro use to not lose a gcd

is accidental or a mistakes in talent redesign/design (or a consequence of bugs)

e.g. the storm + dance macro would not exist, if you could macro dance + strike, which was possible in:

• Legion, Bfa and SL just fine.

the macro would also not be needed if the haste extension was not in so small increments

[sweet kite]

I'm curious about the wowhead rotational guide. It mentions that deathstalker in AoE can ignore deathstalkers mark but then it proceeds in the actual rotational bit to place evis with darkest night up higher than black powder and shadowstrike higher than shuriken storm if mark isn't up

[vale pine]

oh, good catch

i forgot to update the text above then

when updating for pre patch 12.0.1

basically, you could ignore it, but because of the buff that we get next reset

you can't anymore

[fallow nimbus]

Did someone say cursed macroes?

[sweet kite]

So technically speaking on live right now I could ignore it, but why bother when next week I can't?

[vale pine]

you could ignore it, but would still want to put mark up on your target with strike if it falls off

ideally would still use DN as a fallback if mark falls off and you are outside of dance

but yes

tho i would rather just play around it in that case

because thats how we will play soon

trickster is also better in aoe in Midnight

[fallow nimbus]

How much ms are we losing if we macro strike to dance but fast spam the button?

[vale pine]

so deathstalker is rly just a temporary option

[jolly sleet]

i was wondering : a cancelaura DN macro so we get rid of the "press evisc in aoe" thing for when we are ready to dance ? Or did I misread and we need invis (just check we dont)

[sweet kite]

Also curious about shadowstrike with DN up. Do I just sit there and be sad at not losing a stack?

[sweet kite]

Oh

[vale pine]

depends on your lag.
#1065728795455266888 message

but you basically see a ~0.1 sec delay usually

with higher ping more, e.g. like when i played on beta

where it ended up roughly 0.2 sec

[fallow nimbus]

Can we log target dummies?

[vale pine]

timestamps in logs are not perfetcly accurate

thats why we had to test it with video recordings

[fallow nimbus]

[vale pine]

its one of the few times you actively need to record your game to get the best result

[fallow nimbus]

Damn

[hazy breach]

You cannot cancelaura DN

[vale pine]

if you want to decide weather or not to use the macro

just test a bit on dummy

[hazy breach]

They removed that during S3 ptr when we found out it was good to do so

[vale pine]

and see if you find yourself get some ghost uses of strike at the end of dance

if so, use the macro

or just use it, to be sure always, if you don't want to test

[jolly sleet]

i was ready to test /cancelaura [stealth][stance] Darkest night but i'm glad someone thought about it before lol

[hazy breach]

If we could it would absolutely 10000% be worth it to cancelaura

So you dont have to use a silly little eviscerate in big aoe

[jolly sleet]

awww

[latent finch]

Was it not possible to cancleaura it when the hero talent came out?

[hazy breach]

It was

[jolly sleet]

imma check if it works in french (one never knows)

[random ruin]

pick your best 2

[latent finch]

So they fixed the workaround for a problem but not the problem?

[hazy breach]

Idk you can argue mass casualty fixes the problem

It fixes the problem of DN evis not being worth it numerically in large pulls

[vale pine]

blizz does not like the use of cancleaura macros, hence they typically remove the ability

[hazy breach]

But also when the hero talent was released BP did like half the damage it does now

So cancelaura wasnt even good

[sullen hare]

we can't use cancelaura and can't click it off unit frames xdd

[hazy breach]

Those are the same thing

Right clicking a buff is the literal exact same thing as /cancelaura

[latent finch]

That hero talent is just such a mess in aoe somehow. In singletarget i dont have much to complain but aoe is just juck sometimes

[sullen hare]

I know it is, but addons haven't been able to interact with buffs for a few patches now

at least in combat

[vale pine]

deathstalkers mark just follows a design pattern thats not good in creating healthy gameplay

but like

they could just add bp to dn

not like this wasn't asked for 100s of times

[sullen hare]

if they don't want the official cooks to need to be so convoluted why did they make it so convoluted to begin with

[vale pine]

when they are at it

add bp to cttc too

👏

[sullen hare]

oops! friction needed

Black powder has been added to Cut to the Chase. Eviscerate has been removed from it.

[sweet kite]

Hey it's me again, just swapped to trickster on wowhead instead of deathstalker, and I don't think the opener timeline works that well

This is a bit hard to pull off

[daring grove]

what do you think is hard about it

[sweet kite]

Following Evis up with another spender

[jolly sleet]

you're not apex enough

I think there's indeed an issue there because there's no double spending without apexes 😂

[sullen hare]

I hate to break it to you but you're not level 90 🙁

[daring grove]

doesnt the page state it's level 90 information?

[sweet kite]

It's only the visual timeline for trickster in both ST and AoE, the text for both hero trees and the visual timeline for deathstalker mention a builder between

[lean otter]

its a lvl 90 rotation, so u got plenty of time to practice it

[daring grove]

the level 80 info/opener is there as well

[jolly sleet]

just so you know : our apex talent allows for dual spending when your shadow tech is up enough

[sweet kite]

Why would it? It's the current wowhead prepatch guide

[sweet kite]

Was wondering about that, is it possible to do on pull? I thought it had to build up a bit

I only recently started looking at rogue, so catching up on specifics like this

[daring grove]

i mean if you read the priority and look at the apex it seems straightforward, no?

[sullen hare]

??

[jolly sleet]

I kinda agree that the opener is misleading

i have the same

[sweet kite]

Are you on deathstalker or trickster?

[jolly sleet]

trickster

[sweet kite]

Buddy I was just pointing out a mistake on the wowhead guide

Jeez

[sullen hare]

oh ok, tricker is updated for 90 *but ds isn't

[sweet kite]

Yeah, the text for both seems right, and the visual for DS

(for pre-patch)

[sullen hare]

use the DS visual for now then because eventually it's gonna look like trickster it's the prepatch man

[daring grove]

just missing a strike in the graphic

[jolly crescent]

Are attack speed increases multiplicative?
base speed (1.8hits/second) x haste (20%) x Slice and Dice (50%+20% from haste) = 1.8 hits/second x 1.2 x 1.7 = 3.672 hits/second?

[daring grove]

Attack speed should be individually calculated per cumulative buff

[jolly crescent]

Or is it just 20% from haste + 70% from Slice and Dice = 90% increase?

[plush roost]

:^)

...how puzzling, perhaps my head is box'd in

[daring grove]

Attack speed = base weapon speed / ((haste percentage / 100) + 1)

[plain dome]

Hi, can someone explain, why every guide plays Tight Spender in the Class Tree over Improved Ambush?

[plush roost]

Iirc imp ambush wasnt working properly.

Imp ambush is better on beta afaik, idk about live

[warm marlin]

Should be better on live as well, think it was only a sim bug

[hazy breach]

Yep

#subtlety-faq should have imp ambush

But either way just swap over

[plain dome]

ty for the answers have a nice weekend

[vale pine]

oh, there should be a strike before dance there

[sweet kite]

Yeah the visual timeline for trickster ST and AoE opener is missing the generator between evis and sectec

[vale pine]

it was initially more versatile, i just forgot to switch it over in the current talents, while i already did for next weeks update.
give me a moment, ill change

will add, thanks

moment

[vale pine]

switched it on live talents now too, thanks for noticing

[plain dome]

ur welcome

[shadow crag]

are we already using shuriken storm / dark powder at two targets?

can't really find anything about this

[vale pine]

yes

bp/storm 2+

you still use your hero talent tho

can macro coup + bp on trickster

for deathstalker, sadly means you need to use a seperate key bind

[slate marlin]

i thought we still ss at 2 targets

shadowstrike that is

[warm depot]

ya

storm at >2

strike at <=2

i forgot they were both ss lol

[vale pine]

thats correct

the only exception

is strike still on 2

but storm outside of dance

and bp instead of evis

[shadow crag]

thanks folks

[pallid jackal]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility >= Critical Strike >>> Haste

[vale pine]

oh, think thats old

needs an update

[pallid jackal]

This seems out of date. For deathstalker, it is 35% haste > versatility and ?

[vale pine]

ye

[pallid jackal]

Okay thanks!

[lunar bluff]

says you

[jolly crescent]

Is Subterfuge and Shadow Dance considered the same stance? I would like macros to treat them differently if possible ...

Like
/use [stance:2] ability

To only be used during shadow dance, but not subterfuge...

[vale pine]

yes it is weird

you can use [bonusbar:1] to cover all stealth/dance stances

but you would not skill into subterfuge

[warm marlin]

rip outlaw 112.5% cleave

[vale pine]

the talent is bad outside of pvp

[jolly crescent]

(<-- secret PvP gremlin trying to fit in with the normal kids)

[vale pine]

best is probably to ask in #pvp

because most in here only play pvp sometimes or avoid it

[jolly crescent]

Found a source through google https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic/us-en/20748635409-shadow-dance-and-the-stealth-bar/:
"Shadow Dance will be treated similarly to Subterfuge for the purposes of macro conditionals. It will not activate [stealth], but it will activate [stance:2]."

sadge

[vale pine]

ye

you can sadly not condition much with stance macros

[pallid jackal]

Got 91% mastery now - guess that should be versatility as much as possible?

[vale pine]

you want to spread stats

so best is always to sim on raidbots

[pallid jackal]

okay

Thanks Fuu!

[daring grove]

I didn't mean any offense here 🙂

[pallid jackal]

@vale pine can I pm?

[vale pine]

sure

[lunar bluff]

hey. we sucked with 112% cleave so that means we will be good at 43 or whatever it is now.

[void ocean]

do we have any addon what warns us about incoming cds? like 10 sec prior or smth?

[hazy breach]

Unless somebody has found a workaround thats exactly the type of shit they wanted to remove

[void ocean]

did they? but why?

[hazy breach]

So you cant do shit like fractillus assignments

[void ocean]

whats game breaking in having 10 sec prior warning that shadow blades are coming

i mean my own cds

[hazy breach]

Yeah but its the same thing

[void ocean]

boy their code rly must've been shit if they piled up all spells just into the same bag

[hazy breach]

They removed the ability for addons to see how long cds are, how long buffs last, how long debuffs last, all that

[void ocean]

i see

[lilac stag]

Timers are basically buffered now. If you used something like bars in DBM, you’ll see an extended portion of the bar where the ability may go off at any point there after

[void ocean]

i just cant wait RWF

[lilac stag]

The struggle will be devs vs rwf addons

[void ocean]

as usual

[lilac stag]

There’s shit they can still do

[void ocean]

u mean like AI and screen analysers n stuff?

[lilac stag]

nah. Still reading casts and such.

A lot of the addon devs are reporting stuff

To get it buttoned up

stuff will slip through. like sneak.lua

[void ocean]

just cant lose the feeling they rly didnt think this through 😄

[lilac stag]

it’s always and arms race

[void ocean]

i feel like it was more of a "lets just pull the plug and figure out along the way"

[lilac stag]

whatever encryption you build, can be cracked. How they go about trying to bypass it and stay within ToS will be the limiter.

[void ocean]

yea but that doesnt seem sustainable

one side finds a crack, use it till blizz closes it, then find some other and so on

[uneven scarab]

its just finding whats allowed in the current apl

ideally they wont make more changes to it now lol

[void ocean]

yea but do u rly wanna develop the addon that could be gone tomorrow if blizz decides that its illegal and exploiting some crack

it reminds me of F1 car development where teams invest money into upgrades just to have FIA banning em as illegal and ruining the season of said teams

[lilac stag]

That’s most of addon development thought.

Every time there was even a small patch with a slight interface call change, Elv just died.

your WAs needed this as well.

[void ocean]

Yea but that was the case with some fringe WAs that kinda balanced on the edge and that you kinda had the feel it might be banned

E.g. that AmongUs WA in SL

But for majority of stuff u knew it will be there tomorrow and day after that

[lilac stag]

I mean even your class WAs needed maintaining depending on what changed with apl.

First tier def gonna be wild

[void ocean]

Changes are one thing. im more thinking about some crack exploits

[keen dome]

I'm sure we'll see some silly stuff during the RWF. But it probably won't matter for 99.9% of people

[vale pine]

if there is a way to exploit something

people will do it

but blizz would also fix it, so there is that

[vagrant fulcrum]

wait a second

are class trees all being changed this way

or is this rogue specific @vale pine

[hazy breach]

All

[vale pine]

all classes in the game

but it might not impact each class the same way

[vagrant fulcrum]

im surprised i've not heard about it other than your pin

[autumn knot]

Hey prob dumb question, but, does it work to play sub with a Dagger in main hand and 1H sword in left ? or is dagger/dagger required pls

[vale pine]

it does

but its terrible

dagger is only needed in main hand

the attack speed diffrence however makes it kinda mandatory in off hand too

[lilac stag]

Rogue is over of the few with dps still heavy in the class tree afaik

[autumn knot]

Alright, thank you

[vale pine]

8% dps nerf

we are dead

its all over

(i am joking, its pre patch, it does not matter)

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/cooked-i-am-cooked-we-are-cooked-it's-so-over-it's-over-gif-988582128926555324

[shadow lance]

Evening @vale pine , little typo in the wowhead guide I think

[vale pine]

whats the typo

[lilac stag]

To TWo

[vale pine]

ohh

[shadow lance]

"The first two* charges"

[vale pine]

will fix, moment

[lilac stag]

Two to too

https://tenor.com/view/woohoo-ace-ventura-pet-detective-jim-carrey-funny-dance-gif-12371985

[vale pine]

thanks, fixed

[keen dome]

But what's the purple status?

[vale pine]

wdym purple status?

[shadow lance]

You're welcome

[keen dome]

How much purple% does Sub have? are we still very purple.

[shadow lance]

Thanks for writing it 😉

[vale pine]

hmm ye

still purple

[tough solar]

I have a question. In large pulls in m+, when playing deathstalker, and there are 10+ mobs, after triggering deathstalkers mark, should i use one Evis to re-apply it or just contunie spamming black powder?

[vale pine]

you want to still pop dn once the buffs are in with reset (so evis for dn)

currently, can ignore it

[keen dome]

We're good then.

[torn tide]

i still dont get why they did that lol, its not like rogue was dominating in beta right

[vale pine]

grap the top X performers

nerf them by Y

perforamnce metrics might not be all content but one specific one

its just a very (stupid but) effective way to keep specs closer in statistics

which gives the company the oppotunity to showcase how much narrower the gap is compared to classic wow

if you want to be tinfoil

assassiantion was behind subtelty in the wcl statistic once again

so you know the drill ^^

[torn tide]

oh ofc it was

but thts reasonable cuz its somewhat easier in a way

was

[vale pine]

you know that was a joke

(i hope)

[torn tide]

i meant before prepatch lol, wasnt sin easier than sub

like alot easier

[vale pine]

yes

but it also was above subtlety in the wcl statistics

[torn tide]

oh..

was it cuz sub was hard to master?

[vale pine]

no

[keen dome]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[vale pine]

it was because bosses died faster, so it shifted things out of good alignments or had adds die faster

subtlety performance this tier was very much boss design dependent

[torn tide]

damn i see, thanks

[vagrant fulcrum]

prepare is also a typo

if no one caught it

[vale pine]

i fixed that one too

i saw when i edited it

[vagrant fulcrum]

good stuff, wp

[tulip light]

is it normal that you sit on sectech with 0 dances after the 2 dances during blades or am i not pooling anything correctly here

i have like 5-10s with sectech up waiting for a dance charge

[mental saddle]

on beta which spec was performing decently in raid ? was it us or outlaw

[radiant swift]

dance and stec are more or less same cd so one dance should be back up (asuming u have decent haste values)

you press stec after dance so i believe one should be up again

[lucid jackal]

Sub or outlaw, probably sub as of this current moment in time

[plush roost]

Anotha raid, another sub tier

Guy puzzlebox sub is good

Beware

[mental saddle]

hate this trinket

[plush roost]

This was my puzzlebox window first pull XD

[mental saddle]

goddamn

[radiant swift]

bringing another 8%

[plush roost]

Soon we all play assa

All according to keikaku (TL note: keikaku means "plan")

[mental saddle]

how much haste u running on beta charrend

for m+

[plush roost]

687

Ive tried 200 a few times and its good pack damage but ST suffers

And 587 is a bit sketchy on betaping

Sometimes u just lose an input and its joever

[radiant swift]

is that one extra global that crazy?

or adds up to alot

[lucid jackal]

Gulp

Pbox is 3 min right

[plush roost]

Ye its a lotta dam

[plush roost]

Hahaha 2minute sub rogue time to orc

[chrome palm]

puzzle box kinda makes sense since it covers the whole 20s blades window

[plush roost]

And fits the 20 second dance cadence

[lucid jackal]

Pbox is 2?

[plush roost]

Ye

2minute 900ish mastery

[radiant swift]

damn so the marco is kinda a must have then? do u run anything besides dance + stec?

[plush roost]

Aka double ur mastery

[lucid jackal]

If it's thanos trinket wouldnt it lowkey just be better for sin

I feel like nobody is even trying sin

It can't be that bad

[plush roost]

Sin ST

[lucid jackal]

Or maybe we just double on use

[plush roost]

Is very good

It just has no cleave

[lucid jackal]

Is there another good on use for sub?

Or is it legit just box

[plush roost]

Not really, crit flask trink is bleh, flag is haste

[chrome palm]

i would rather cast puzzle box than wait for the banner, also

[plush roost]

Pbox sims .4% lower in ST than competitive trinkets but its way way way more burst

So its fight dependant

And in keys, having that level of burst can make impossible packs possible

And is good in ST since most bosses are 3ish minutes so youre getting 2 casts anyway

[heavy sundial]

hi guys. would uh...anybody be able to help me with understanding how to gear for sub?

[lucid jackal]

Being a 2min spec seems wrong tho

[plush roost]

It does, and i wasnt sold

[heavy sundial]

i think i get what i need but i want to understand the fine details

[plush roost]

Till i tried it some

[lucid jackal]

But Ig timers on a lot of fights it won't mater, but it depends on when adds spawn in an encounter

[plush roost]

Youre already waiting 10-15 seconds to cast sblades as it is

So whats one more dance sec tec

[chrome palm]

i think salhadaar has a ~1:40 amp but the add spawn on dragons iirc is like 2 minutes in

[warm marlin]

maghar will rise again

also means you're flexible between 90s and 2mins

[plush roost]

Normal orc brotha, AP > secodaries this early surely

[warm marlin]

kinda brazy

[plush roost]

Yes its the flexibility thats really neato

[warm marlin]

from my limited research flag will not be very contested

so can get both

[chrome palm]

hm

[plush roost]

Idek if u play flag, early in prog ig

But the feather trinket is really. Really. Good

[warm marlin]

for those fights where 90s profile is important i mean

[plush roost]

Ah ye tru

Gonna be an interesting raid tier but i 100% think pbox will make an appearance

[chrome palm]

if assa st is strong it could make an appearance on beloren at the least, so taking puzzle box from vault could be interesting for that alone

[plush roost]

Ye assa goes crazy in execute

[chrome palm]

possibly stronger than in tww since tails works on zoldyck now

[woeful lance]

so sectech has no more cdr mechs?

[plush roost]

Nop

[chrome palm]

just haste and disorienting strikes

[plush roost]

Just haste

[woeful lance]

[jolly crescent]

Is there any way to track unseen blade CD?

[vale pine]

nope

[cyan lava]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1044376789365047370/1469351263006363772/image.png?ex=6988a900&is=69875780&hm=98c5fefa6e05aa0272c3352344c9f90deb5561753ed37ddcdcadcef0ae6b6391&
they will put all stats on this

Trust me!

Surely!!!!

[alpine wraith]

puzzle box is going to be very good yea

but flag is also good

[cyan lava]

Pandaren 👍

[alpine wraith]

you might be able to choose

because flag also makes your first and wen you use it later dances longer

but puzzlebox compresses the dmg without more duration

not always you can just wail on mobs or the boss for 22 secs or so

actually i wonder if puzzlebox gets more value from TFD

[cyan lava]

I think this tier will feel very bad if pb and flag are the only options for on use trinkets

Surely they will make another like they did with CSI

The int 90s trinket is so good

[alpine wraith]

maybe one of the proc trinks is good as we dance so often

[cyan lava]

Gaze will get nerf

[vale hull]

I was doing some 20+ keys and my single target damage is very low (deathstalker, build mastery, versa for aoe). Im afraid that we are in a spot either we are good at aoe and bad at ST either we are good at single target damage and bad at aoe, in both extreme ways

anyone share this feeling?

[lucid jackal]

I think it's fine for specs to have strengths and weaknesses

[alpine wraith]

deathstalker got nerfed a bit

so trickster is better overall

well not a nerf per se just bugfixewd

[chrome palm]

We didn’t have an on use in s2 until they made house of cards 90s, so I don’t know if we get another

[vale hull]

what was the bugfix about? and when?