subtlety

[shrewd lantern]

like if you see a guild that goes into heroic week with like

30 people

probably what happens

[tepid trellis]

higher wr you go

the bigger the rosters tend to become

[maiden oar]

we just give them free mounts in prepatch

[graceful rock]

^

[tepid trellis]

so higher chance of the bench

[shrewd lantern]

also just poach people from the other high end guilds

[graceful rock]

I remember I was offered a bench spot on a us 20 guild and legit lol’d

[chrome palm]

recruiting for bench is odd

[shrewd lantern]

yeah big roster early tier is often to have more options

[graceful rock]

I legit told the guy I’d rather stay in wr 2k than watch someone else play

[shrewd lantern]

but recruiting specifically for bench is

[lilac stag]

We usually have 27-28 going into heroic week. 3 eventually realize it’s not for them and we do our best to rotate people in for rekills

[swift tinsel]

our mythic prog gets extended by virtue of rotating dps/healers weekly

[lilac stag]

we also have many missing / work emergencies so everyone gets play

[graceful rock]

My new guild has ~24

[lilac stag]

the goal is the be useful by 7th boss and you’re pretty golden for CE

Those that constantly do mechanics constantly get to raid.

[swift tinsel]

the fun time is when you have the rotating roster and end up with the perfect storm of less mechanically consistent players active and more mechanically consistent players benched that week

and end up having your RL rage bc people couldn't put things together

[lilac stag]

Yep. And it happens

[swift tinsel]

but not realizing why

[void ocean]

RLs rage in 2026?

i prefer silent despair

when u feel in their voice that they r broken 😄

[swift tinsel]

I'm curious to see what happens with some of our raiders who very clearly relied on WAs to help them along

[lilac stag]

We have both

[tepid trellis]

my old RL never "raged" but he would do this old dad deep sigh when he was dissapointed

and i lowkey miss it

[lilac stag]

The officer that rages usually has no idea of any of the fight mechanics

[graceful rock]

The audible sighs are goated

[swift tinsel]

ours doesn't yell-yell but he gets reallllll fuckin stern and short

[graceful rock]

Especially in PTT channels

[void ocean]

bruh im curious to see how im gonna d without WAs, let alone RL

[azure thicket]

we had somewhere between 3-5 people out during 2 on stix prog so this season was the mulligan

[swift tinsel]

felt as fuck lmao

[azure thicket]

christmas/december won in the end but it was fun

[swift tinsel]

he claims its bc he's italian but he's really just a dick

[lilac stag]

Ours is a lawyer

[swift tinsel]

oof

[azure thicket]

idk first move seems like getting two myth rosters before you can grow and shuffle plans around

[void ocean]

lol

[azure thicket]

sometimes you can tell our rl wants to make moves but doesn't

[tepid trellis]

last time i got actually angry at someone in raid was back in SL

where i raised my voice and yelled at the guy

[swift tinsel]

we're always like 2-3 people above a dedicated 20-man but then lose a few after the first 'wall'

[azure thicket]

40 people lmao

[swift tinsel]

but we also have an issue with recruits lasting a whole season especially

[azure thicket]

ye definitely

[void ocean]

just do Ahn'Qiraj

[swift tinsel]

like not even gquitting but straight up ghosting the game entirely lol

[tepid trellis]

i was not a very nice guy in SL very high amounts of angst and anger

corona did me bad

[lilac stag]

I just mute folks on discord when I need to. When it starts to interfere with my audio ques I have to do it for my play. Otherwise I keep quiet for the most part.

[swift tinsel]

big same I legit had to take off from end of sl to s2 df

gquit left guild discord everything

[tepid trellis]

now it takes quite a fcking lot to get me angry at someone

[lilac stag]

Angry haps is angry

[swift tinsel]

it was bad I was so toxic lol

[void ocean]

u got laid meanwhile 😄

[lilac stag]

Hold on. Let me get Zac

[tepid trellis]

zac doesent make me mad

[azure thicket]

cs2 had people leaving comments on my steam profile before they all got deleted, it wasn't great but also extremely funny looking back

[lilac stag]

one of the few

[swift tinsel]

we also had a bad environment in the guild with some really cliquey bullshit and some of the worst attitudes that really ramped up how toxic other people would get

[azure thicket]

yellow, execute that man

[tepid trellis]

my SL rampage was on a warlock that wiped on on sludgefist the same way 4 pulls in a row

[swift tinsel]

thankfully once those negative catalysts were gone things really turned around

[tepid trellis]

and had been repeatedly told to not stand where he was

so when i saw him do it a 5th time

i walked ontop of him

[lilac stag]

Sorry had discord muted. Don’t stand where?

[tepid trellis]

pressed feint

killed him

and proceeded to yell at him in korean for 2 min straight

[swift tinsel]

lol we had a hpal who would bubble his chains and murder people

[tepid trellis]

i was very very fckingmad

[elder garden]

damn is this the general chat channel

[torn tide]

the hell bruh

[azure thicket]

[lilac stag]

I just to hunt down our shaman with a mechanic and cloak it kill him

[swift tinsel]

now he plays shaman a lot so I;ll step and drop puddles on him

[void ocean]

why korean 😛

[swift tinsel]

there's a vid of him somewhere from a DoS broker boss where he thought his totem was the knockup and died

[tepid trellis]

cuz im korean

[vagrant fulcrum]

Monka

The KR rage

[void ocean]

oh i tho it was just language of choice

[swift tinsel]

[void ocean]

like more effective

[tepid trellis]

it is when im really pissed

[void ocean]

understandable

same here in my ex guild they knew shit is about to hit fan when i start cursing in native

[torn tide]

peak expressiveness

[tepid trellis]

i mean it was bad then too

cuz normally i dont say a word during raids

unless i fck something up

or if a call absolutely have to be made about something

otherwise im just muted listening to music

[swift tinsel]

the move

[void ocean]

i always kinda envied ppl who can listen to music and raid/do keys at the same time 😄

i rely heavy on all sorts of audio ques to allow music in parallel

[worldly portal]

i can only do it if i did it enough times hahaha

plus reducing visual ui clutter helps

[void ocean]

yea, if its like god knows which reclear or smth

[worldly portal]

at least for raids

m+ has a lot going on

but i also don't do m+ as much as raid

[azure thicket]

a lot of people i play with prefer a bit of calling in keys

[placid coral]

Is sub really as simple as I’m gathering it to be

[azure thicket]

but that stuff really do be affecting your level of play

[tepid trellis]

had a clip at somepoint to show someone in here how loud my music is while i play

its quite loud

[sullen hare]

Yes.

[void ocean]

how do u hear raid calls

[sullen hare]

You just do believe it or not

[slate marlin]

he doesnt need them

hes THE sub rogue

[swift tinsel]

I mean with timers and notes its pretty easy to just know

[tepid trellis]

at a point you have done so many pulls that a RL doesent really do anything for you

[sullen hare]

The plinks and plonks of bigwigs are basically all I need

[void ocean]

yea, thats true, but u gotta reach those pulls

[sullen hare]

Billy the warlock needs his weak auras and the raid calls for all 300 pulls on that boss

[void ocean]

or u leave music for later

[swift tinsel]

idk I can just pick out my rl's voice easily

[sullen hare]

First couple weeks the music is turned down relatively

[tepid trellis]

i tend to learn quite fast

[swift tinsel]

ye I'll usually do that for the first few pulls then its volume up

[tepid trellis]

and once i learn and understand something i dont forget it

[swift tinsel]

gives me time to set up my reminders and get some muscle memory if needed

[tepid trellis]

so i play purely from muscle memory

[void ocean]

I TRIED SO HARD... dodge... AND GOT SO FAAR... puddles... BUT IN THE EEENDD...

[swift tinsel]

idk I use my eyes for dodging lol

[sullen hare]

But then you have the entire raid memorized and it's time to blast black metal while watching the people that are bad at mechanics die

[swift tinsel]

ears don't really play into that

[tepid trellis]

cant remember the last boss where i relied on my RL making calls

[swift tinsel]

I do love when they yell at me for not stacking immediately for some things when I can just step

esp when baiting is involved

[tepid trellis]

maybe SLG in CN

ah dispells on ehm silken court

other than for stuff like that

i dont

[void ocean]

move on Demont hunters?

that last intermission

[tepid trellis]

nope

we always ran left

and stood still if he jumped straight across

[tepid trellis]

https://www.twitch.tv/stealthi/clip/NastyRealFerretGivePLZ-pHNH9DXsNHdFgiyS?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time at 28 sec or so the music stops being copyrighted and you can hear it being louder than the guy talking xD

[void ocean]

aye

[tender dust]

This isnt midnight

[tepid trellis]

had one night on that fight

where me and our DK was co-listening to taylor swift all night

[next pulsar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

was a banger

[vagrant fulcrum]

best thing is turning music up so you can't hear people saying anything

[graceful rock]

I blasted the katamari damaci soundtrack for all 160 pulls of stix

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel

old raid lead ended up capturing it on stream

[swift tinsel]

idk if I've got any clips since no one streams

time to shadowplay

then again it would just be lots of conversations about pegging

[lilac stag]

Ruined his parse.

[void ocean]

i made a few vids but my RL insisted that I cover all voices 😄

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dLkyB-CVHw

[maiden oar]

someone in my guild said this about my video but it isnt even hardstyle

i am listening to techno its different and better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UwuZfbWZus

[swift tinsel]

I should combine all my raiding playlists from over the years into one superultramega playlist

[maiden oar]

so mad so mad

[swift tinsel]

hardstyle is so difficult for me to listen to yet its so pervasive in wow kill videos lol

[maiden oar]

hehe

yeah i just listen to techno when i raid

[swift tinsel]

I have a bit of a range

[maiden oar]

u find people who mix 3 hour sets and its so easy to throw it on and not think about it

ive been listening to other stuff more frequently now but its annoying because i have to actually skip stuff sometimes

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah I used to go for liquid dnb off youtube for a long time

[maiden oar]

cant just throw on some 5 hour thing on yt/soundcloud and forget

[swift tinsel]

or 3lau's old sets

tons of artists have like full Ultra sets which are usually pretty solid

[maiden oar]

ive been listening to this guy who looks like preach gaming alot

he goes crazy

[swift tinsel]

I usually go back to old Pendulum a lot though lol those are core wow memories for me

[maiden oar]

[swift tinsel]

but usually guys like Sub Focus, Maduk, Salvatore Ganacci

[maiden oar]

ah ok i dont know any of those

i am ignorant

[swift tinsel]

nah there's just a bazillion artists out there lol

bbno$ is great to throw on too bc the beats are great

[maiden oar]

[uneven scarab]

Dj smokey or bust

[maiden oar]

i love dj smokey

[uneven scarab]

thats my goat right there

[maiden oar]

psychological musical warfare on repeat

[uneven scarab]

^^^

YES

another one who gets it

[maiden oar]

big varg fan

[uneven scarab]

What an album man

[maiden oar]

i like his older stuff too

evil wayz very good!

[uneven scarab]

Im a big dj worm/eurohead guy so naturally when smokey worked with them it was just genius to me

[maiden oar]

yea

in my heart/in my mind maybe top 5 ep of all time

[uneven scarab]

Not even maybe

peak

[maiden oar]

i dont know enough eps to say for sure

but i think so!

[swift tinsel]

hmm can't say this is my jam

[uneven scarab]

Klubb music vol 1

my fave worm album

[maiden oar]

mines heart/mind but that is fair

2 gates 2 hell radio is pinned on my spotify

i love eurohead

[uneven scarab]

That one and the one right after are my fav

so good

[maiden oar]

yea

[uneven scarab]

Def an acquired taste ngl

[maiden oar]

i hope they do vol 3 psychological musical warfare sometime

[uneven scarab]

My main tank and i talk about Smokey and worm all the time

thats our shit

[maiden oar]

hehe

i dont think anyone in my guild likes my music

[uneven scarab]

Nah i assume most of mine dont either rofl

[untold nacelle]

https://tenor.com/view/he-aintlyin-preach-truth-facts-tho-gif-15825744

[maiden oar]

very surprised someone in roguecord listens to that sort of thing

i love varg 2 tm

so cool...

[uneven scarab]

HAHAHA

sup

WE LOVE YOU DJ WORM!

[maiden oar]

enchanted death melody also goes crazy

[uneven scarab]

Psychological musical warfare was my entire mfo raiding experience though lmao

like on repeat for sure

[maiden oar]

yea

[uneven scarab]

The skrillex album was also great

[maiden oar]

i hope if they do a 3rd one its more like vol 1 than vol 2

[maiden oar]

i didnt really like it but i wish i did

[untold nacelle]

Agreed the first one goes so crazy hard

[uneven scarab]

1st one bis for sure

[maiden oar]

or if they do a 3rd one they can make it sound like this too

thatd be ok!

[uneven scarab]

love their art too rofl

[woeful wren]

Btw. Just for understanding sake. Does our plague damage benefit from the shadow dmg bonuses even if it chooses the nature route based on enemy res?

[sullen hare]

would black metal be better? because if you tune into my POV it's gonna sound like this louder than everything but maybe bigwigs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRabdt3O5X4&t=1359s

[maiden oar]

hehe

yeah maybe

would u be offended if someone in ur guild watched ur pov and said is there a pov that doesnt have fucking metal core blasting

bc that is kinda how i felt

[sullen hare]

everyone just kinda knows it's gonna be some weird shit blastin'

[maiden oar]

yea but at least get the genre right

unforgivable!

[sullen hare]

I've been out of the EDM game for too long so I don't even know what that is. some flavor of trance?

[maiden oar]

techno

[sullen hare]

[maiden oar]

subgenre is probably industrial

[sullen hare]

that's absolutely not industrial 🙂

[maiden oar]

but u could probably just call it techno

oh i meant industrial techno

not industrial industrial

[sullen hare]

oh, I didn't know there was an industrial edm

I didn't stray too far from dnb and psytrance / goapsy on di.fm

[maiden oar]

ah ok

[sullen hare]

https://www.di.fm/goapsy

[maiden oar]

i see

[sullen hare]

https://tenor.com/view/andrew-cooper-andrew-dance-cooper-dance-feeling-dance-dance-gif-4719076827571292026

[maiden oar]

i just look up sets on yt/soundcloud i am so lazy guy

[sullen hare]

DI's always been around for us people who are from before the yt/soundcloud days

[maiden oar]

i see

[sullen hare]

yes, us old folks

you should poke around there if you like edm

[maiden oar]

ok ty

[unreal silo]

is there a designated log help channel?

[vale pine]

nope, can do !log

[unreal silo]

!log

[upbeat garden]

@vale pine Sorry to bother ,but u said sim works ,but it says it doesnt support midnight prepatch

[vale pine]

well thats a general warning that things might be not updated equally well than on a full patch

you can just run a sim, it will work

[lilac stag]

@vale pine did you happen to record what we talked about over the weekend regarding dance+strike

[vale pine]

i haven't had a pc where screen recording does not log today

XD

*lag

my laptop is sadly too bad for the task

[lilac stag]

oh noes

Do we need to do a go fund me for you?

[plush roost]

man look at that prio dam

Sheeesh

[chrome palm]

what are the other dps at

[plush roost]

Keeping up with warlock HOLY

(and then u look at overall hehe)

[chrome palm]

what is overall

[plush roost]

he may have 100m more total damage than me

xd

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/T9p21dzWj8QMVFBa?fight=4&type=damage-done

here are our little key sesh

kept up fairly well in the nexus

but windrunner is just warlock heaven

[chrome palm]

god punish casters

[hazy breach]

Skyfury diff fr fr

[chrome palm]

no skyfury no bshout

gg

[uneven scarab]

surely its just that

[chrome palm]

he is getting all of his buffs

[plush roost]

no skyfury no bshout no mystic touch no bitches

i did like when they said "man im kinda liking rogue more than aug wtf"

[chrome palm]

hm

[plush roost]

Shroud technology bro

we did so much

[chrome palm]

yeah shroud is kinda nice in a few places tbh

[hazy breach]

But yeah even with 15% more damage from buffs you arent doing more than the demo in those keys

[chrome palm]

like before 2nd boss in seat shroud is nice

[plush roost]

Demo will be nerfed

[chrome palm]

since most tanks skip the pat

[plush roost]

I believe

[hazy breach]

Ye presumably

[plush roost]

was competing with the frost mage pretty well tho

W

and i wasnt even padding

lots of shadowstrikes

[chrome palm]

even with rogue i think most people are only talking about outlaw being decent

sub seems to really fly under the radar

[hazy breach]

As always

[plush roost]

i think sub is very good

outlaw may be slightly better tho idk

esp with phys buffs

[uneven scarab]

I play with a surv in keys with no melee buffs and ngl compared to that

It feels rough

Surv is fucked

[chrome palm]

is scaling different at high keys char

[hazy breach]

Outlaw is squishy though

Or well, squishier

[plush roost]

the first 18 nexus and the 20 maisara

braind idnt realize he had a bugged key

so no affix's

-20% LOL

but yeah the 17->18 jump is huge and the 18->19 jump is insnae

[chrome palm]

sorry i meant gear scaling

[plush roost]

no everything after 15 is 289 ilvl

[lilac stag]

What level feels like a weekly 10-12 in s3

still similar or?

[vale pine]

na, keys and raid is quite a bit easier in pre patch

[lucid jackal]

I've been told it's the aquishiest spec in the game and undertuned and bad and fat and bald

[hazy breach]

Big true

[graceful rock]

Why do we rec platy over plater?

[plush roost]

Feels about 10% squishier than sub thats about it

Fade to nothing op

[swift tinsel]

for me platynator has been considerably less buggy during prepatch

also extremely easy to configure

[lilac stag]

It’s a better addon

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/gg-cowboy-gif-25367146

[warm marlin]

at least 3 of these are true!

[lilac stag]

How can these be true when all I hear in here is that sub is 2 buttons and outlaw is the best rogue spec with biggest brain needed. Clearly prog spec in midnight.

[warm marlin]

yes certainly

[plush roost]

One outlaw prog tier please i beg

[lucid jackal]

Its this tier

[warm marlin]

how do you solve the weapon crafting issue guy

2 specs generally > 1

[plush roost]

Simple we loot myth weapon off first boss

And craft op ring

I have not looked at loot tables btw

Hehe

[warm marlin]

weapons that you dont give to your havoc/enh/monk

i guess theyll probably all be devourer now

[keen dome]

Just whoopsie send a sword craft, gotta go outlaw for prog

[lilac stag]

outlaw nerfed week after crafting

don’t worry, can always use it as an offhand

[astral axle]

perfect for me

[neon pond]

hey guys, may some1 take a quick look at my logs if possible? If I am doing some major mistakes or anything.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wqxDjydnN9acHRhP?fight=last&type=casts&source=9&view=timeline

I plan on rerolling rogue for midnight but currently struggling a bit with st dps imho. Ty in advance

[radiant swift]

is having the macros (esp the anticipated ones for midnight) needed as in no optimazation possible without? i heard its possibly 3-4 macros, mybe even more?

[swift tinsel]

You can make situational ones

[sly shore]

@signal solar said rogue better than devourer 1000000% next tier

please agree

[swift tinsel]

Gonna break the run of new spec being busted

We got dis

[keen dome]

Rogue number one

[spiral sierra]

rogue pumps 😄

[swift tinsel]

If nothing else we have two buttons we press in downtime vs devourers one button

[radiant swift]

but just pressing situationaly (instead of macros) ill lose out on the optimazations?

[swift tinsel]

Wym lose out

Unless you’re comfortable and fast with simultaneous presses for some of them

[radiant swift]

from what i´ve read most things were about uptime basicaly

[warm marlin]

it's just very hard to press dance->gcd without losing a little bit of time between presses, and losing even 0.2s over your 7 or 8s dance will cost you a lot

[radiant swift]

as in squishing as much globals inside as possible

[radiant swift]

understood - damn having 4-5 of them tho

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, so you’d have something like a dance/blades/Sectech macro so you jump right in

[hazy breach]

You dont need 4-5

[warm marlin]

prob only need 2-3, dance/sectec, dance/storm, dance/blades/sectec

can combine 2 of those depending on if you plan on never holding blades

[swift tinsel]

Was dance+storm a gain bc it reduces the delay?

Vs strike since you can’t macro it to dance

[warm marlin]

yes

[swift tinsel]

Optimizing lfg

[radiant swift]

the macros will be extra then besides having them seperately for situational situations like holding?

[warm marlin]

yes

[radiant swift]

damn unfort

[warm marlin]

except blades, don't really need an independent button for that

[alpine wraith]

blades goes with taivan

very important macro

[radiant swift]

unfort all the good buttons are already gone

[lilac stag]

Class talents wrong. Take improved ambush.

Target adds instead of dimmy p1

your ilvl is low

[neon pond]

but besides that u can't spot major rotational flaws or smth? ty already for watching

[tulip light]

seems fine - strike evis strike evis strong

at 3.28 u send a sechtech right before going into dance

but ye all in all 159 is just the ilvl

[graceful rock]

How many dance macros do I need

[bleak night]

all of them

https://tenor.com/view/happi-happi-gif-1032719750723341491

[graceful rock]

• Dance
• Dance + Sec Tech
• Dance + Storm
• Blades + Dance
• Blades + Dance + Sec Tech
• Blades + Dance + Storm
  Are any of these useless?

[bleak night]

idk i dont play this class

[hazy breach]

Just 2nd and 3rd is good

The rest are just saving you button presses, you can manually press blades+pot+trinket and then press dance+sectech macro

Or well, dance / blades+dance serve no purpose

As dance+sectech is when you enter dance with full cp and dance+storm if you enter it at low cp

[woeful wren]

Is there any bugs with DN evi during apex* or its gd to do?

[graceful rock]

Okay so you basically just have blades on its own bind and then hit the corresponding dance bind?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt get any of the amps from DN

So its not bad, its just a regular eviscerate one

[woeful wren]

oh, that sucks

[radiant swift]

can i please reask u about this - so the lenght of the previous(blades+trinket+pot sequence) doesnt matter as much as fitting as many globals as possible inside dance?

[hazy breach]

Every global is 1 seconds long

Shadow blades for example is 16 (or 20 with tier) seconds long, which means you can have roughly a 0.99s delay inbetween pressing blades and starting to press strike/evis/etc before you lose out on globals inside of it

Shadow dance length vairies depending on your haste, but it can be something like 7.1

And in that case your margin for error with how long your delay is

Has shrunk down to 0.1s

Which is a lot harder to perfectly execute without a macro

[radiant swift]

i see so the macro gives me a constant start

is whast im understanding from this

[sick basin]

The macro are intended to reduce gap between ability activation so you can fit as many globals into blades and dance windows to get as close to the theoretical max

[radiant swift]

is this because dance and blades are of gcd_

[hazy breach]

In 8 seconds you can use 8 abilities ye

[sick basin]

Yes, so instead of pressing them one by one and losing .x seconds per activation

[hazy breach]

In 8.1 seconds you can use 9 abilities

But not if you have a small delay inbetween, because then you wont have that extra 0.1 second

[radiant swift]

i see while u can qeue the other abilties since theyre all 1 sec long

[lilac stag]

Coup muddies the globals a bit for tricky

[radiant swift]

i heard its about 0.2 longer or smth? or as it should be

[hazy breach]

Yes (although technically coup is 1.2 seconds long, and theres a general ~5ms or so delay inbetween every spell regardless of what you do because of how the game is)

[radiant swift]

understood. ty

[lilac stag]

Eleem was it DF or TWW when dance+strike bugged (or we sorted out it was bugged)

[hazy breach]

the macro issue is from df

[lilac stag]

That’s what I thought but was second guessing

[graceful rock]

Wait my spell queue window resets with a cvar_default doesn’t it

[torn tide]

yo is the aoe rotation just shuriken storm and black powder after the dance and sectec then coup whenever its up?

[lyric lily]

Basically

[eager latch]

what embellishment do you guys prefer on beta rn?

[plush roost]

U can play 2x murder row fishhook for high ST or signet ring and loa band for better overall

[left shale]

which trinkets are good on beta. havent been keeping up at all

[torn tide]

ah so shuriken storm is subtlety's version of fan of knives from sin then, just use whenever its more than 2 people if u wanna build combo points in aoe

[robust light]

uhh i read the macro thing but im a returning sub player so i can macro shadowdance and sectec how should i go about macroing shadowblades ?

[hazy breach]

However you want to

Or not

[tepid trellis]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

[tribal blade]

@lilac stag just had another idea but it's gonna be so much work

[steady osprey]

I'm really surprised mastery simmed so poorly for single target damage. Why is it performing that badly since pre-patch?

[short radish]

haste good

[brisk onyx]

Because other stats are more valuable.

[tepid trellis]

we also do partially more builder dmg than we did before

so crit/vers is quite good

and yeh now that haste aint useless

just doesent leave much room for much else

[cloud sequoia]

hello fellow killers from the shadows im coming back from a 3 year break! i last main sub rogue are they pumpin in PVE or is it outlaw that iv been hearing so much?

[azure thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/ffxiv-final-fantasy-xiv-tonberry-fat-cat-cat-gif-15779182

sub good, even with haste changes we're basically b is for burst damage

[eager latch]

is loa band really the move?

i was running the crystal thing, and that shit is giga bad on overall ngl

maybe i'll try double murder row

[hazy breach]

Flawless form stacks capped at 20% instead of getting upwards of 60%, a lot less combo points from blades and no shadowcraft refunds

Mastery is better in midnight when we get tier and apex talents

[torn tide]

how much master would we need in midnight tho

[maiden oar]

tonberry is the coolest

[lilac stag]

They usually are.

[granite trench]

whats the rotation for sub rogues?

eviscirate keeps changing? do i use it when it does or hold to 4 stacks of coupe de grace?

[tepid trellis]

just slam it

[granite trench]

slam it on ST what about aoe?

[tepid trellis]

Sectech over Coup de Grace over Black powder

[granite trench]

we have an isue tho, i get coupe de grace way before i get 4 stacks of some weird icon "escalating blade"

[tepid trellis]

coup is what evis turns into at 4 stacks of escalating blades

yes

[granite trench]

so the counter in beta is wrong?

[tepid trellis]

either that or you are looking at something else

[granite trench]

no i can have the counter saying "2" but the actual spell already been turned

when do i use backstab and evicerate over the other 2?

and shadowstrike

[tepid trellis]

iirc
backstab on 1 target out of dance
Strike on 1-2 target during dance
rest shuriken storm as builders
and Evis is just single target

[granite trench]

thanks daddy Stealthi

[pallid osprey]

I see on archon and wowhead that recommended builds for aoe aren’t taking shuriken tornado or weaponmaster on live or beta - are shadow clones really that undertuned?

[swift tinsel]

weaponmaster is a st talent

[granite trench]

I LIKE SUB!

[granite trench]

SO THE "WEAKNESS" DEBUFF ON ENEMY ISNT WORTH USING IT IN ST?

[tepid trellis]

wat?

[granite trench]

shuriken storm

[upbeat garden]

I liked war within version too

[tepid trellis]

0 clue what you are asking

[astral axle]

in case anyone was wondering arms does not own

[granite trench]

silent storm

[tepid trellis]

nope

its just shuriken storm that crits

it does way less dmg than strike

[lilac stag]

Why do you think I’m here?

[tepid trellis]

and generates less combo points

[warm marlin]

shadowstrike applies it too

[maiden oar]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[short radish]

well well well look who comes crawling back

[astral axle]

me returning to sup from the nectar of yellow class after considering warrior

[lilac stag]

You’re basically playing fury warrior as sub. Just with burst, and way less utility.

[astral axle]

perfect!

and this way i can still post funny emoji since archi doesnt allow out-of-server ones

(insane rule btw)

[warm marlin]

yeah all the out of server ones are so normal

[astral axle]

man bro for all the emojis i couldve posted i went with fuckin wally

[regal rose]

does anyone have a plater i can use

[lilac stag]

Check wago

[astral axle]

use platynator instead platynator owns

[lilac stag]

That as well

[regal rose]

@astral axle whats platynator ?

[astral axle]

https://addons.wago.io/addons/platynator

[icy tinsel]

do you just sen sectec off CD Now? talking to charrend in stream todya

[chrome palm]

pretty much

[oblique hill]

even outside of dance?

[fallow nimbus]

No

You dance with sectec pretty much + 2 dances in blades

[oblique hill]

yerr alright

[icy tinsel]

idk i was told different and see different logs than always having sectec dance

sending sectec of cd is more value is the theory craft. see it on all top logs also if that matters

[vagrant fulcrum]

Could you share some or give me names / fights? I’m interested

[upbeat garden]

Does anyone have a good platynator profile ,that has a clear vision of the casts ?

[hot seal]

Do we use mana oil or whetstones in prepatch?

[brisk onyx]

Oil

[random comet]

Jundies is good, you can just google “wago platynator Jundies” and it should come up

Then you can just tweak cast bar to your liking

[upbeat garden]

Oki 😄

Will do that

[random comet]

There’s a link in the outlaw channel right now if you can’t find it

#outlaw message

[stoic spire]

Noob question… sectec should be paired with dance even if I delay it or just send it when it’s available? Is there any haste value dance and sectec have the same cooldown? Should I aim for it? Mainly for m+

[brisk onyx]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[red vortex]

If dance up, go dance sectec

But then again m+ as many variables on when to use cd's

But sectec would prob mainly be used in dance in m+

[vale pine]

good morning lovely people

[random comet]

I’m at like 17% haste and dance is 21 and sectec is 20 so close enough

[formal helm]

oh ye...have to get haste now.

...

[torn tide]

good morning fuu

[cinder axle]

hey I havent played WoW for a few months and I just saw some content for Sub... wtf is this spec now it looks like 0 Fun

I bet this has already been discussed enough, but are there any more changes planned? The spec really only has 2 buttons.

[spiral sierra]

thats roughly all classes

[cinder axle]

Yeah I know but It feels like Sub got hit rly hard

[short radish]

so did all classes

somehow they even neutered BM

[spiral sierra]

and fire mage

like wtf

[cinder axle]

Assa and Outlaw kinda got a nice cleaner version but Sub feels lame

[short radish]

casting pyroblast even with procs is a dps loss in execute now

[spiral sierra]

xD

rip pyroclasm

[tender dust]

from never have to play sub before and always Assa for me it's the other way kinda weird 😄

I think assa feels lame now and i absolutely love how sub plays

[hollow spear]

I'll repeat myself: the actual impact of button reduction for sub is completely overblown

[spiral sierra]

i just hit 3.1k yesterday on my sub rogue, so thats exciting.....

[short radish]

i mean its basically same shit just no rupture

and no backstab in dance

[spiral sierra]

mhmm

[short radish]

sub was never a complex spec to begin wtih

[hollow spear]

People thinking that pressing flag once in a blue moon actually counts for something

[short radish]

the complexity of sub is completely overblown

[spiral sierra]

-rofl

[short radish]

whoaaaa you couldnt macro symbols and dance together

crazy

[cinder axle]

I played both and the Change with CT is a good one i think... but still the spec feels a bit lame too. They should just delete Tea. Its the most anoying spell in the spec for me^^

[spiral sierra]

mind blown

[short radish]

yeah also delete tea

no one wanted it back

[spiral sierra]

i mean they made it passive 100% now

[vagrant fulcrum]

tbh I think there's a better way of implementing energy than tea

[hollow spear]

Sub was hard because of the flexibility we had with dances and because of its unforgiving nature

[vagrant fulcrum]

tea naturally conflicts with dm without mastery on it

[hollow spear]

Not because of "many buttons"

[lusty narwhal]

maybe the wrong channel for this but quick question: is there a way to show potion and trinket cooldowns in the cooldown manager or do i need to put them on my action bars and show the action bars? any cool solutions for this?

[cinder axle]

I think sub was hard because u need to play ur dmg window perfectly otherwise u deal no Dmg and that second sec Tech hit felt rly rewarding and fun to me

[spiral sierra]

now you just send it

[cinder axle]

but now its just press cds and then 2 spells

[spiral sierra]

its fun

try it 😄

[tender dust]

Yeah i like the change with CT. but i don't know it's so simple now. you do bleeds, you press deathmark/kingsbane and you envenom 5 times and you wait till buff drops and you go again. like there is litteraly no counterplay imo

[spiral sierra]

join us

[cinder axle]

yeah will see in actual content maybe I am a bit dramatic about it

[short radish]

dw you're just late to the party

we did our malding/freak out a few months ago

we've now hit the acceptance stage

you'll get there

[cinder axle]

xDD

[spiral sierra]

im stuck between fury warrior and sub rogue as my new main (from hunter) and sub rogue is probably what going to happen

[cinder axle]

I prob main UH DK and twink rogue

[spiral sierra]

i got a taste of the speed

[cinder axle]

with the old assa there were always pulls where I thougt "meh could have done this and that better for 2-3% more Dps" with the new one I think the only "skill" part will be if it is worth it to Refresh the bleeds or not

dunno how you could fumble a pull otherwise then using ur Big CDs on a small add 😄

[tender dust]

Yeah maybe if your very new to the spec that can happen. but i'm pretty expierenced on assa that would never happen to me 😄

[cinder axle]

Y same so its just Assa in lame 😄

thats why i prob main a diff Class

[vagrant fulcrum]

more power to you dude

[cinder axle]

I never played Outlaw, maybe thats a thing but I dont like the rogue fantasy with guns

[vagrant fulcrum]

I'm finding very few classes have any actual optimisation

[vagrant fulcrum]

you could just use a deviant delight etc

[tender dust]

Why i actually love sub is the dance windows and putting every gcd in it, i think that has quite some skill impression, but i'm pretty new to sub. you can solve this with macros quite easy.

[vagrant fulcrum]

outlaw isn't really an assassin per-se, moreso a swashbuckler

[cinder axle]

before the glowdown its was a rly fun giant Burst Window where u build many small buffs to hit like a truck at the end with ur sec Tech at the End

and now its the otherway around u Dumb everything and play ur dance

[vagrant fulcrum]

tbh I don't think old sub could have ever hoped to survive the pruning

[tender dust]

Honestly for me before everything, sub was to hard for me to get into. but i havent really tried it before. but it was quite complicated for me.

[cinder axle]

yeah no shot

[cinder axle]

y was not beginner friendly at all but when got the grip on how it works it was so fun

[tender dust]

I felt like with old sub i needed a PHD to press everthing accordinly

That's why i always find it extremely funny that some people said that assa before was harder then sub and some people said that sub was harder assa before the pruning 😄

[cinder axle]

I would say Sub was way harder to get into but Assa is harder to fully master - In M+ that is

As Sub u always play ur "hard" Dmg window and as Assa there is a High chance u mess something up in a pull

like vanish to early - dont get a good sudden demise, reaplying the dots right

As sub its just do I have enough time to send it and get it back in a good spot for next pull

[tender dust]

Yeah, i heard from a lot of people that with old sub you really needed to think ahead.

[cinder axle]

If you cant stand there for 15 sec and blast ur window ur fucked

thats basicly the hard part

but now its w/e xD

[tender dust]

right now ifeel like if you fuck up your dance windows, it's still quite a loss. it's not as hard anymore. but still more skill impression then assa thats for sure.

[cinder axle]

I think when you never played the 2 specs you would feel like sub is easier

[lilac stag]

They’re the same. One has burst dmg. One has utility.

[cinder axle]

but lets see how it goes when Midgnight goes live

[spiral sierra]

but one is faster on APM i thought?

[cinder axle]

I read somewhere that thy slowed Fury down a bit

[spiral sierra]

fury feels fast still tho

sub is like a notch down

[lilac stag]

Not really. Prepatch flow is the same as s3 fury.

[spiral sierra]

but not by much

hmmm

[lilac stag]

Sub apm slightly moved to more abilities and less cd presses

since 2 cds are gone

[spiral sierra]

it just feels like on fury i can still get carpol tunnel

but not on sub

xD

[lilac stag]

redo your keybinds

[spiral sierra]

well fury is 4-5 buttons still

not sub

[lilac stag]

S3 fury was a vibe. Not carpal tunnel and it’s slower on beta.

[spiral sierra]

if its slower on beta

then i wont get pain xD its at the point where its just shy of no pain on prepatch

[lilac stag]

I progged the last 3 months as fury. Fix your binds if you’re in pain

[spiral sierra]

will do

[lilac stag]

I’m old and it was fine.

[spiral sierra]

xD same im geting old

kinda old

feel old

whjo knows

[lilac stag]

Sub has better pacing / flow for most players now.

[spiral sierra]

i really like the flow

oh i hit 3.1k on my rogue last night (better late then never)

[lilac stag]

Arms sucks unfortunately and i don’t find fury enjoyable (or stable enough) to commit to it.

[spiral sierra]

yeah fury has ups and downs

[lilac stag]

All three rogue specs are still the same at their core.

So whatever you’re comfy with and enjoy

[spiral sierra]

also whats the deal with sin single target, i can't for the life of me figure out why i suck at it xD

or is that tuning

[lilac stag]

Prepatch?

[spiral sierra]

yea

[lilac stag]

lol

Nothing matters

[spiral sierra]

true

but was sad when i saw my DPS so low is all

[lilac stag]

Short kills favor subs burst. Nothing more or less

[spiral sierra]

maybe

it was that

idk

[lilac stag]

an execute does with no execute

There’s no maybe

[spiral sierra]

xD

[tender dust]

Does arms still have demolish?

[lilac stag]

they lost their 90 seconds as well (good)

[tender dust]

I always fumed in season 1 when i was playing arms when i pressed demolish and the tank moved away in m+

[glacial eagle]

Arms sucks number-wise or what

[lilac stag]

It’s been mostly piss numbers wise all TWW. Nothing in MN says it’s fun for me. It’s just kinda there.

I rather play assa than arms at this point and that says a lot.

[glacial eagle]

ah, well, that's just tuning
altho I do hope tuning is better for arms ngl, it's my refuge in case I turn out to suck at Outlaw
bc I'd rather play Arms than new Assa

[lilac stag]

How to you take away nothing in MN arms is fun for me as tuning? lol

[brave carbon]

What's the best trinkets rn for sub?

I guess Lily is a big contender and maybe Antenna?

[lilac stag]

Raid is forge/lily & projector

[brave carbon]

What? double on use?

[plush roost]

If u gem all haste and diamond loa band gives u a 115 haste buff with 20ish% uptime is very good

[harsh meadow]

My brain is extra smooth this morning, why would we macro sec tech and dance together. I’m not understanding. Obviously if you have 0 combo points this makes sense but otherwise wouldn’t it be possible to send a sub optimal sec tec

[torn tide]

well thats why tap backstab/shadow strike for full points in 1 hit before sending it

[brave carbon]

Using 1 with SB,ST, SD and the second one with ST, SD? And also, are theese best for m+ aswell?

[lilac stag]

Projector is just cast during lingering

[haughty mural]

arms tuning should be fine on beta

they fixed and QoL'd a couple of things the last beta cycles

prepatch it is piss

[lilac stag]

sometimes I think that's all people worry about is tuning

[haughty mural]

yea idk...

[harsh meadow]

think I’m just so used to having separate binds it feels weird firing them off immediately

[lilac stag]

idk warrior dps brains just piss on each other for who wins

rogues tend to stay in their lanes and bitch about gameplay lol

[glacial eagle]

I'm talking about its state during TWW
kit-wise, I don't think Midnight changes all that much aside from ragegen problems, so if that's not your thing, that's fine but also should've been the same during TWW?

[torn tide]

i get what u mean lol i just switched to using that dance sectec macro like a week ago and but genuinely its so helpful

u get off more casts meaning more dps

[torn tide]

was replying to this

[harsh meadow]

yeah I’m just worried I am not sending them properly but I guess it’s impossible not to send them properly with that

it is fast for my boomer eyes

[lilac stag]

you mean unplayable from both a design and tuning standpoint? yeah arms was amazing

[torn tide]

youll get used to it trust, stuff is easier in prepatch like m+

[haughty mural]

damn

[glacial eagle]

eh, I liked everything about TWW arms but Skullsplitter and Roar, neutral on Jugg, so I'm winning in terms of MN changes?

[lilac stag]

then why you shopping outlaw?

[glacial eagle]

because I am an idiot who likes the general Rogue aesthetics and keeps getting kicked by Blizzard for it IG

[lilac stag]

self-awarness is important

arms to outlaw just a weird transition to me

[haughty mural]

if those were your pain points... yes

[lilac stag]

but always do what you feel is fun

that's important

outlaw is less utility, less aoe build spend react than fury

[glacial eagle]

it's more of Arms to Assa (during TWW) to Outlaw (right now) possibly to Arms later on

[haughty mural]

do furys still dont take their def cd ?

[glacial eagle]

ya I think so

[lilac stag]

i didnt look recently.

[haughty mural]

[glacial eagle]

the frenzied regen or something, that one?

[haughty mural]

ya

[glacial eagle]

yeah they don't take it

[lilac stag]

just more for you to heal. plus they have cheat now

[haughty mural]

their cheat is kinda weird

[lilac stag]

ye

[haughty mural]

anyway - they got a clear favorite child over there it seems

[lilac stag]

i stay out of there for the most part, but it like fury = bm/assa, arms = sv/sub as far as what general populous wants tuned to be broken lol

[kindred hazel]

hey im new to rogue, how does shadow techniques worrk? i cant find it in the talents and i cant seem work work out how it stacks

[kindred hazel]

oh ty its a passive not in talents

[haughty mural]

Yeah seems about right

[lilac stag]

@kindred hazel it's basically a combo point deposit box. you can play around it a little to force full cp finishers

[kindred hazel]

ok, also is it correct if i have secret techinque up in like 5 seconds to hold my combo points for it? so its my first gcd in shadow dance?

cause wowhead says try and make it my first gcd in shadow dance

[lilac stag]

ye

example. i have full CPs plus 14 stored ready for CDs since I'm afk talking in discord

[kindred hazel]

ah ok

ty for help enjoying learning new specs and sub seems fun despite i hear a lot of people dislike the rework

[lilac stag]

well, there weren't a lot of us before rework

the base of the spec is the same, just got easier entry point

those same folks arent going to be happy on the simplification of any of the specs

[red flame]

Facts

[lilac stag]

it's fun

and a lot more accessible

[red flame]

I hated new sub at first but it’s actually not bad at all once you get your haste up

[kindred hazel]

seems a lot like feral in that way like no one plays it cause its too hard, but i always wanted to try sub since i played sub rogue in classic when i started wow, but it seemed too complicated to play as a chill alt

[red flame]

But in pre-rework stats

[lilac stag]

ofc there's room for some improvements and prepatch isnt exactly how specs are going to play

[kindred hazel]

do the apex talents do a lot for sub?

[lilac stag]

currently they give you some stuff to think about. #subtlety-faq

[maiden oar]

there will probably be some edge cases with them u can minmax

spec feels significantly better on beta but

i still prefer old sub hehehe

i loved stacking 10 billion flawless form and multipliers and pooling coup and sht and going insane

[lilac stag]

i still prefer dust

[maiden oar]

i wouldve if i played then im sure

[lilac stag]

but I think you also as a player need to come to a realization that those specs are done

[maiden oar]

i saw the amirdrassil spreadsheet

[lilac stag]

so either find enjoyment or play something else

[maiden oar]

nah nah nah its a pendulum

it will swing the other way

maybe never as drastically as before given the wa situation

but it will

[lilac stag]

i'd be surprised if the specs dont all get some iterations for .1 to add depth across the game

[maiden oar]

rl has already said i am rogue

[tulip light]

Just add dfa again 🙂

[maiden oar]

unless we need monk buff and brew and mist are unplayable

then i play ww

[lilac stag]

thye just went full delete it all along with the addons

[lilac stag]

we already have it and play around it. it's called SecTech

[maiden oar]

rework goremaws into a core rotational ability of some sort

that is my #1 stance

chomp chomp

[tulip light]

@lilac stag Fair point actually

[lilac stag]

get rid of danse, make it blight.
redo goremaws to be a SecTech refund instead of energy

[maiden oar]

ok dunno what blight is

[lilac stag]

those are the two popular suggestions for adding gameplay back

sylvanas dagger

[maiden oar]

ok idk what that is

il llook it up

[vestal escarp]

Dmg proc

At this point is just a reskinnwd danse

Well, the other way around

[maiden oar]

did the dagger add any gameplay

or was it just passive

[red flame]

I wish that was a talent

[lilac stag]

it was a stack build over time, so you're replacing a passive with a passive if you delete danse

[maiden oar]

oh yeah i meant did this change the apl any

or did u finish at same cp no matter stack count

[outer cloak]

who's excited about the rogue changes on beta this week , i can feel them in my bones

surely

[lilac stag]

acted like a poor execute. people loved it

[red flame]

I’m people

[harsh meadow]

blizzard only likes outlaw rogues unfortunately

(worst spec)

[red flame]

I don’t think blizzard likes rogues at all xd

[outer cloak]

sub and assa buffs changes and fixes this week

[harsh meadow]

Real + true

[lilac stag]

that's certainly a take.

[red flame]

https://tenor.com/view/james-franco-the-interview-hate-us-gif-12303612

[graceful osprey]

Fire mage

[scarlet heath]

firemage where you no longer press pyroblast

back to the classic days

of spamming bolt

[lilac stag]

but that’s also ultimately your choice where roster spot is a higher priority

the higher up the ladder you go, be it m+ or raid, there a good chance you’re fotm whatever is good.

[sick jackal]

i dont think blizzard remembers rogues at all

[graceful osprey]

Would’ve been funny if blizzard made ret paladins go back to auto attack like in classic. Imagine paladins hitting like a 40k auto attack lol

[red flame]

100%

[regal stag]

Sub does not feel good at all outside of dance. that's a bummer.

[lilac stag]

it's not supposed to

and you're in dance like 50% of the time lol

[regal stag]

i'm not talking about the spec damage wise, mind you ! just the feeling.

[lilac stag]

it's not supposed to

[vagrant fulcrum]

Did you play tww sub?

right now sub feels AMAZING outside of dance compared to before

aka you do some damage / have apm

vs being healer dmg

[lilac stag]

it's short go windows, followed by slower recharging

[regal stag]

i played sub during tww, yes. (well, i also played sub in vanilla at the time...which was a thing. -_-)

[vagrant fulcrum]

compared to tww surely you see an improvement?

[regal stag]

i do, i do.

[vagrant fulcrum]

in tww if for w/e reason you didnt have uptime outside of dance even if theoretically it would be good for a spec that does all its dmg in cds to have downtime the cdr on dance made it giga garbage

[regal stag]

not having to use rupture is a plus, in my book.

[lilac stag]

on prepatch the spec is 60 apm with most of it in builders and spenders

idk play outlaw if you want every builder to feel amazing

[regal stag]

i'm not saying i don't like the spec at all 🙂

(i have another rogue to play something other than sub)

[vagrant fulcrum]

what aspect of sub is letting you down outside of dance

is it having too few buttons to press?

or bs doing too little dmg

[surreal willow]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[regal stag]

BS being a slow builder.

[vagrant fulcrum]

as in it doesn't generate much in 1 press?

[regal stag]

yep, that's it, Mo.

[lilac stag]

the downtime, especially to do mechanics is welcomed by me

[lilac stag]

and the more BS does, the less we do in our burst / cds and then those feel worse

[vagrant fulcrum]

fair enough, that's a relevant point since shadow dance + strike generates max pretty much every time - the dopamine from that and knowing you do a ton more dmg is lost that's true

I want to frame it in a different way

[regal stag]

true, it gives the rush during dance.

[vagrant fulcrum]

would you rather have pyroblasts that hit really hard or don't hit hard?

[regal stag]

i think i see your point.

[vagrant fulcrum]

you can replace pyro with evisc

[regal stag]

having the downtime helps creating the rush during the dance.

[vagrant fulcrum]

compare pre and post rework fire, old fire was in combust 24/7. pyro did low damage considering it was a payoff spell since you fired like 40-50 a minute

[lilac stag]

pacing is important in the feedback loop

[vagrant fulcrum]

new fire has limited combust uptime and fires less pyros, each one is allowed to hit harder

because there's less of them

remember blizz always has to balance the overall power of a spec, we could get a lot more cp generation from backstab in theory

but it would lead to them having to nerf eviscerate

they can't just give you 20% more finishers per minute with those finishers doing the same damage

20% more finishers that do x% less dmg sure

[regal stag]

thanks for the insight, guys. it helped.

[lilac stag]

outlaw playes in shambles

[regal stag]

i have to see sub as the evolution of what was a long time ago: preparing for the big strike.

[lilac stag]

that was last tier and people complained constantly about out of dance

[vagrant fulcrum]

tbh with you sub hasn't massively deviated fundamentally from mop days even

it's still about having damage inside cds

[lilac stag]

on occasion we get the big builder abomination

[vagrant fulcrum]

(yes df* sub was erm...different)

[lilac stag]

sub still sub from TTW to MN

[vagrant fulcrum]

honestly it feels like a fever dream to acknowledge that shadow blades was dogshit for multiple expansions

before the df rework

[lilac stag]

I think we're at a good place with the base of the spec. needs one more ability to have some fun with (fkn fix goremaws and remove the energy)

[vagrant fulcrum]

I'm down for an aoe cd finisher

sub atm in aoe is cooked

[lilac stag]

i like the idea of insta reset the CD of sectech

[vagrant fulcrum]

lowkey, what if sectec got charges kekw

[lilac stag]

tell that to Charrend

[vagrant fulcrum]

charr loving sub atm or..

[lilac stag]

he's slamming it as sub

[vagrant fulcrum]

oh im not talking dam

i mean gameplay

considering that it's genuinely 3 buttons

ss, bp macro with coup and sectec + dance macro

and it's entirely predictable too

[lilac stag]

sure, and depends on if we're playing around apex and WM

[vagrant fulcrum]

apex will introduce gameplay to it

but atm its big dam but zzzzzzzzzzz

[lilac stag]

welcome to wow 2.0

[vagrant fulcrum]

mage atleast feels somewhat reactive

[regal stag]

i did not take a look at the apex talent yet. i'm waiting for the xpack to come out.

[lilac stag]

we're not really a reactive spec

[vagrant fulcrum]

heck, this one interaction on frost mage between thermal void and fingers of frost genuinely feels like proper optimisation

[vagrant fulcrum]

sub historically has elements of reactivity

[warm marlin]

Tell that to the coup bug

[vagrant fulcrum]

mainly playing around sht stacks/shadowcraft but ye

[lilac stag]

eh? planning spec more than anything outside of dumb bugs

[upbeat smelt]

Honestly I love the burst but it does feel bad when there's no dance available, but I know the Apex talents are going to help a little bit of that area too.

[lilac stag]

it's called pacing

[upbeat smelt]

But I do think that having backstabbed generating two combo points would not be the end of the world and you would make it feel better.

[lilac stag]

or just let sht do it's thing and press nothing

[upbeat smelt]

Well I should clarify yes in dungeons and raids it feels better but when I'm questioning or doing delves and that have mobs with 20% health left and it takes a long time to kill them it feels bad.

[lilac stag]

rogue in general is never going to feel great in solo content

[upbeat smelt]

Well I also have like 7% haste right now which is really bad for sub

[lilac stag]

delves you can atleast hold cds, or swap specs

[upbeat smelt]

So I'm keeping that in mind, and I'm not complaining about the spec as a whole I love it

[regal stag]

that i don't know. i played rogue for almost 20 years. it's really a special class.

[lilac stag]

it's a pain in the ass to level. rot damage just trucks and one of our bigger solo defensives reset mobs

[upbeat smelt]

I agree with that which is why I lved this guy in legion remix with 180% exp buff hehe.

[regal stag]

you can also bypass a truckload of things during quests.

[lilac stag]

i mean if that makes you happy sure. we're not efficient at all for just running trhough mobs to get shit done asap

and that's what most raiders look for to get out of open world asap

[regal stag]

that's indeed a "me" thing. i played rogue (or bard) on every game that allowed me to do so. Even on TTRPG (in my youth).

[lilac stag]

differnt strokes for different folks

[lilac stag]

fake rogue
leveling one is a right of passage

[upbeat smelt]

I leveled one before, more than once. Been playing since release, but this is the first time I'm going to main one. I always wanted to play sub but it was always too complicated for me.

[lilac stag]

glhf

[upbeat smelt]

And I really like the idea of a combat rogue and they killed it with outlaw for me

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/rogue-warcraft-wow-gif-11008475980691198481

in general everything should be more approachable. There will still be players who can’t figure out sub as a spec. Just need to figure out what’s fun for you and go with it.

[chrome quiver]

wait i had bis gear on my rogue and now i need 35% haste? i have 5% - WTF BLIZZ

[magic cliff]

It's prepatch, just vibe

Nothing to gear up for

[chrome quiver]

not if i'm boosting

[lilac stag]

someone hasn't looked at any MN development since alpha

it doesnt matter in prepatch

or just regem your shit and move on

takes 5 minutes

[fathom adder]

reg/enchant, setshoulders/belt inside the t-set machine, cloak socket and you are good to go. Like ~10 rating is 1 % iirc

[lilac stag]

the prepatch freakout is fun

[tender dust]

would mean you just press sec tech twice in the supercharger, wouldnt change to much lol

[lilac stag]

which would be the idea of goremaw being a cd reset for it

[tender dust]

Bro not gonna lie i'm so new to sub i havent even looked in what goremaw does

[lilac stag]

[tender dust]

Doing that now

[lilac stag]

[tender dust]

NO ENERGY?

SIGN ME UP

if goremaw would be a thing would you press that outside of dance? because you have unlimited energy in dance

[lilac stag]

it'll never be a thing until they remove the energy and make it useful again

[sullen hare]

That's kind of the point as to why it's been a dead talent since they slapped it back on the talent board yes

[vale pine]

you would press goremaws mainly outside of dance ye

unles sits a super big hit

but i don't know

you can always do the lazy approach

and just buff something to the moon

so players need to pick it because its just overpowered compared to other options

[azure thicket]

bis gear for sub right now in keys and last season bis aren't even that far apart probably

just not gonna be first in overalls

[vale pine]

you want a lot more haste

[azure mauve]

imma be honest

i dont even know what goremaw does

i never even looked at the tooltip

[azure thicket]

for sure, some pulls in keys if everyone is blasting you're not gonna be first on the meters without adjusting

but you'll time a 20 probably

[tender dust]

makes next 3 finishers free

I didnt knew either 😄

[lilac stag]

my heart 💔

[plush roost]

Oh contrare

Sub is good i swear guys

[lilac stag]

Out here trying to get us nerfed so you can play outlaw.

[plush roost]

Ahem

Mayhaps

[broken seal]

Guys it is gonna be my first ever expansion with the ilvl/stats drop. Do you think i can practice some M+ with the stuff you get on the pre patch event ?

[plush roost]

Not even playing chinese pad build

[warm marlin]

Charrend is playing the prio machine build to sandbag overall

[plush roost]

Aka the good build hehe

Ive had to settle for 656 haste

[lilac stag]

play some outlaw ;p

[plush roost]

Cause beta lag

Dw scath the chinese outlaw rogue will get outlaw nerfed for us

[warm marlin]

I’d go 684 for trickster prob

Even with macro it’s hard working with .2 leeway imo

[lilac stag]