#subtlety
sly shore
torn tide
thats a great part of why ur explanations are peak
tender dust
Fuu i know how assa stats work,, but how much am i griefing with no vers on sub?
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tender dust
what stat would you put vers into?
Im just in assa gear and i have like 2% vers and i was wondering if it really matters
I have like 120% mastery lol
in sub
lilac stag
Is prepatch. Does not matter. Just get some haste. Swap fiber if you want vers or haste.
tender dust
Yeah its just pre-patch
Not that it matters but i was just curious how the stats work on sub if it's very detrimental if you have like no vers.
lilac stag
The robot will tell you what’s best.
tender dust
like how it is for fire mage if you have like no haste
tender dust
The robot will tell you what’s best.
you npc 😄
tender dust
Thats interesting
vale pine
i did not want to go too high in the stats because of potential drs
else i would have move vers to 0
but generally, stats arn't going to make or break things
and pre patch is mostly for fun
(luckily)
torn tide
and pre patch is mostly for fun
mythic feels easy as shit now in prepatch
vale pine
it is
even a unoptimized guild can now boost at least the first 2 raids mythic
dimmy is still a bit tougher because you need to have dps
torn tide
is it meant to be that way?? my guild party people that were struggling on +3 are suddenly able to do +7 now loll
i remember feeling so bored going down to their level to play with them
vale pine
pre patch is basically to set up your ui
and start to learn the basics of your spec
there is not much else to do
the pre patch even is one of the weakest i played so far
torn tide
the pre patch even is one of the weakest i played so far
ye lol it kinda feels like a joke
vale pine
technically, you can now start to collect secrets
because of the title, if you haven't done them before
austere spear
whats the opener for sub currently ? i understand the sd > shuriken macro but do we just ss > sb > sectech > dance?
vale pine
you would just strike-evis-dance-strike-secret-...
if you want to use the macro
you can use it in the sequence instead of strike
austere spear
strike > evis > macro > st
vale pine
it does not matter as much in pre patch you dance a lot w/e
lilac stag
can vanish strike dance/sectec
lilac stag
Makes the button presser happy +1
austere spear
how would that work with the macro cause you gain 5cp with it just evis then vanish strike sectec ?
austere spear
I see appreciated
hallow matrix
Can someone tell me why it's bad to have a shadowstrike/backstab macro? (i used to have this when i played sub a few xpacs ago and want to do it again but feel like there's a reason the guides don't suggest it)
vale pine
its not bad
lilac stag
You don’t need it
hallow matrix
Oh, feels like it'd be a no-brainer to have it in the guide macros section
lilac stag
we’re not stabbing in dance
hallow matrix
yeah but you can stance condition it
or at least you used to be able to
so in stealth/dance it's shadowstrike and out of it it's backstab
lilac stag
your bars do that auto
hallow matrix
oh true, i disabled paging ages ago
i swear there was a point where the paging was slow so i turned it off
lilac stag
there’s a delay to strike / dance so if you want to open with strike you spam a dance+ strike macro
hallow matrix
if that's not a problem anymore i'll put it back
Is that a built in delay? or a user input delay from pressing x2 binds?
vale pine
Oh, feels like it'd be a no-brainer to have it in the guide macros section
it is ^^
i found a typo
it should say talented, let me fix that
hallow matrix
Cheers! Is it actually a worth dps gain to have a separate macro for dance+shadowstrike to mitigate .2 delay?
or is it just minmax behavioru
lilac stag
you ready the faq and realize what the opener should be. 
you’re trying to get max casts in dance which, which is varied by our haste. If the .2 secs makes you loose a cast, it’s bad.
vale pine
yes
the secret + dance macro is good in pre patch too
because you still have deepening
so haste scaling on dance
lilac stag
Filling your dance window is on live, which is also beta. We’re not using apex talents and playing around sht
vale pine
if you want a more detailed explenation of why we do certain optimizations, i earlier went on and explained a bit, starts with this message: #subtlety message
hallow matrix
So to clarify, a Dance+strike macro will bypass the .2 delay? or it has to be Dance+Sectec or Dance+shurikenstorm?
vale pine
no
hallow matrix
if you want a more detailed explenation of why we do certain optimizations, i ea...
Thanks, i'll have a read
vale pine
they broke dance + strike macro in DF/TWW
you still get low delays if you press it fast
but if you want instant cast, need to use storm/secret
lilac stag
If you want to spam a dance+strike macro you’re more than welcome to. Most players are never going to even realize if they’re missing a cast in dance or not.
hallow matrix
If it's a worth gain then it's worth doing. I'm new to sub so still a lot to learn. With that in mind, why is not better to always dance with high CPs so you can sectec or evis right on the rip?
rather than using storm which assuming doesn't hit as hard as strike
vale pine
you don't need to do it, it is just a workaround of design problems/accidents
you can read it up at the message i lined above
hallow matrix
I just read your linked post and it gives some good context thanks. I'll have a play with the macros and see how it feels
Appreciate your time explaining!
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique
This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique
So just always pool CP before dance?
vale pine
yes
just start dance with 6+ cp
and macro secret to it
in the opener vanish-strike before dance
hallow matrix
Okay sweet thanks, i'll probably do the storm one as well but introduce it over time
Strike -> evis -> vanish -> strike - Dance/secret macro?
Assuming you start from stealth
vale pine
yes
hallow matrix
Dance + Blades + Secret
Yeah good catch haha
Quick question about deathstalker AoE - does it matter which target has a mark on it when you're storm/black powder spamming? / if it dies do you have to replace it
tender dust
Quick question about deathstalker AoE - does it matter which target has a mark ...
It depends on the targets but on a certain amount of targets you dont do anything with the mark. if you need prio you can put it on that target
I forgot how much targets it was
hallow matrix
When you say do anything with the mark, what interaction are you meant to have with it in AoE pulls?
tender dust
When you say do anything with the mark, what interaction are you meant to have w...
Yeah you dont interact with it.
hallow matrix
I thought it was a put it up and then just leave it kinda deal
tender dust
I thought it was a put it up and then just leave it kinda deal
Yeah like that.
But if i remember correctly someone can correct me but in certain amounts of targets you dont evis anymore and you just storm blackpowder spam
fair anchor
errr, hotfix notes and bug tracker say that disorienting strikes now correctly applies the sectec 10% CDR, but I have the same CD for sectec in DS qnd trickster
hallow matrix
But if i remember correctly someone can correct me but in certain amounts of tar...
The guide doesn't mention evisc at all in the AoE priority - am i missing something?
tender dust
The guide doesn't mention evisc at all in the AoE priority - am i missing someth...
Yeah that's what i mean. you dont evis at all. so you don't anything with the mark.
@vale pine What was the deal again with not using evis in aoe and DS mark?
vale pine
what blizz did was the following
they buffed Black powder and storm by a lot
while changing talents to have less power in deathstalkers mark
this means, while mark is useful on single target
you do more damage per target with storm and bp
the damage is enough to ignore mark once you get to more targets
tender dust
Yeah so you don't evis at all, you dont even apply the mark right?
tender dust
How many targets we talking about
hallow matrix
Oh really? the wowhead guide says to shadowstrike with exactly 2 targets or if mark isn't up
I assumed that meant even on like 8+ targets
azure thicket
i still don't get putting builders on non index finger keybinds like 4,5,e r or t
https://youtube.com/watch?v=jwPLnTlfk9k
vale pine
you technically would still apply it with strike if it falls off
hallow matrix
i still don't get putting builders on non index finger keybinds like 4,5,e r or ...
Thumb mouse bind
hallow matrix
you technically would still apply it with strike if it falls off
Above you say to just ignore it? so i'm confused if i should or shouldn't be applying mark on bigger pulls?
vale pine
Above you say to just ignore it? so i'm confused if i should or shouldn't be app...
moment
tender dust
Above you say to just ignore it? so i'm confused if i should or shouldn't be app...
No because mark is just a single target buff
In aoe its better to use aoe abilities
Why would we care about 1 target if there is 10 targets
azure thicket
Thumb mouse bind
tbh one of our main tanks is missing at least two fingers on their left hand and has to click
we did get to salhadaar intermission for the one time though so idk
hallow matrix
Why would we care about 1 target if there is 10 targets
No idea lmao, assuming fuu has some good insight they're about to drop
tender dust
No idea lmao, assuming fuu has some good insight they're about to drop
Yeah but there is no insight, mark is a single target ability bro, it doesnt have any value in aoe beside prio damage. so if you need to do aoe damage you ignore the mark
azure thicket
Yeah but there is no insight, mark is a single target ability bro, it doesnt hav...
kill obliterator/houndsmaster/slasher faster
tender dust
kill obliterator/houndsmaster/slasher faster
yeah so prio damage
hallow matrix
Yeah but there is no insight, mark is a single target ability bro, it doesnt hav...
I mean i get the logic behind what you're saying, but the guide says it for a reason no? otherwise fuu would have just said flat out no
tender dust
I mean i get the logic behind what you're saying, but the guide says it for a re...
I think fuu just havent really thought about it.
hallow matrix
or it would specify (unless you need prio)
tender dust
and is probaly adding it as we speak
vale pine
Above you say to just ignore it? so i'm confused if i should or shouldn't be app...
the best is to keep using mark
but you would only use evis if darkest night is up
the benefit diminishes with tarrget count
so while its good to do on 3
with 8 or 10 its almost irrelevant
tender dust
If you use BP does it remove a stack from DS?
vale pine
the thing is, you would only evis if no mark is up and no dn
azure thicket
on priory for example if you're not killing arathi knight it's extremely grief but it sounds like you want to aoe at the start of the pull to thin out some of the pack?
vale pine
which e.g. in a sim would not happen that frequently, this is the first time it happens
hallow matrix
So it's shadowstrike prio target to apply mark, black powder / storm spam until darkest night and then evisc mark target?
hallow matrix
actually you can ignore me, i need to re-read how the hero talent works
vale pine
more or less
i can add it back to the guide, but it might be confusing
which is why i initially removed it
vale pine
its quickly added back, moment
vagrant fulcrum
out of curiosity what apm is sub on nowadays st
it deffo feels a lot higher than tww s3
fleet acorn
The fok proc it seems like i Never use it 🤣 when am I supposed to use it ?
In ST
hallow matrix
its quickly added back, moment
awesome, once it's up i'll have a read
austere spear
its quickly added back, moment
this last part under SD optimal use is a typo right? its meant to say sectec can be used 2nd time during SB without dance?
lilac stag
this last part under SD optimal use is a typo right? its meant to say sectec can...
You chain 2 dances in blades. Only first has Sectech. The dance after blades has Sectech
fleet acorn
The guide doesn't mention evisc at all in the AoE priority - am i missing someth...
So on like a fight like soul hunters u almost never press ss? Unless all 3 are stacked
austere spear
You chain 2 dances in blades. Only first has Sectech. The dance after blades has...
Yeah i know you get 2 dances in blades. I'm also able to get 2 sectechs off during as well
sour horizon
The second dance in SB is for crying and remembering the sectec that used to be
vale pine
you usually don't
lilac stag
Yeah i know you get 2 dances in blades. I'm also able to get 2 sectechs off duri...
You’re not
sour horizon
How much haste you got?!!
vale pine
unless you get secret down to a very low cd
lilac stag
Because the second isn’t first two finishers of dance
lilac stag
Sectech should be supercharged
vale pine
with a lot of haste
lilac stag
and if you’re haste is that high, you’re inting your other stats
austere spear
Nah with prepatch and lust on pull most bosses i get 2 supercharged sectech in during opener. Otherwise it is only one
vale pine
awesome, once it's up i'll have a read
alright, had to add some context too, hope i did not make a typo
thanks discord, rly making images easy to read
lilac stag
Nah with prepatch and lust on pull most bosses i get 2 supercharged sectech in d...
You’re likely not chaining dance back to back and missing a second of dance in blades. You’d have to look at the logs
just to veryify
austere spear
You’re likely not chaining dance back to back and missing a second of dance in b...
I'm spamming dance macro at the end of my first dance to start next
lilac stag
idk what your dance macro is
austere spear
Dance/sectech
hallow matrix
alright, had to add some context too, hope i did not make a typo
That's good thank you! appreciate the effort
Where did you put that in the guide?
fleet acorn
I have 36% hast with long dance
I get 2nd dance + sectech 1 sec before blades is off out with lust
Just holding buttons 1-2 sec
vale pine
Where did you put that in the guide?
fleet acorn
Using full cd macro doe on opener
vale pine
detahstalker aoe
tender dust
mvp
hallow matrix
have you published it yet? it's not updated on my end
vale pine
yes
hallow matrix
Ah it's there now - Thanks
austere spear
is it necessary to have dual dagger for sub or should i just myth fist weapon for off hand?
vale pine
you can clear cache if you press shift + f5
tho that would potentially also log you out
lilac stag
is it necessary to have dual dagger for sub or should i just myth fist weapon fo...
!oh
wicked joltBOT
Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.
hallow matrix
I did that, and tried an incognito window
vale pine
is it necessary to have dual dagger for sub or should i just myth fist weapon fo...
yes, always use 2 dagegrs
hallow matrix
Guessing there was just a delay
hallow matrix
yes, always use 2 dagegrs
is that for shadow techniques or something?
vale pine
daggers have faster weapon speed
hallow matrix
144ilvl dagger vs 170ilvl sword, would the dagger win out because of that?
vale pine
its like 2% worse to use a non dagger
in offhand
so you are better off using a crafted dagger or a cheap dagger you get from the ah
144 wins out
but you can sim it
hallow matrix
@lilac stag didn't think sims were accurate atm from what raidbots warns
Thanks @vale pine - I'll leave you alone for a bit
lilac stag
basics are accurate. Welcome to rogue
vale pine
<@226395155098370049> didn't think sims were accurate atm from what raidbots war...
they are in general, some things might not work perfectly
fallow nimbus
Are sims wonky because why does it want me to go 45% crit with 35% haste for 1min fight duration
vale pine
but should be fine for rogue
vale pine
Are sims wonky because why does it want me to go 45% crit with 35% haste for 1mi...
1 minute fight durations are always
lilac stag
Are sims wonky because why does it want me to go 45% crit with 35% haste for 1mi...
Burst and Dance
lilac stag
just high roll crit
vale pine
has a high variance
fallow nimbus
Funny thing is it just changes my gems to crit/vers
azure thicket
at end of today im not sure how much i trust dslice
lilac stag
Fuu can you give me an 8 target 20 second sim with list please. 
azure thicket
feels like prot warrior issue
lilac stag
Funny thing is it just changes my gems to crit/vers
Drop your fiber and sim all 4
azure thicket
like maybe patchwork with adds is the shmove
lilac stag
dslice is fine
fallow nimbus
Drop your fiber and sim all 4
Did that, versa drops too much there
azure thicket
i trust that it's accurate/precise
fallow nimbus
Also why is our haste so complicated with alacrity?
vale pine
Also why is our haste so complicated with alacrity?
haste will be easier in midnight
lilac stag
It never does. It gives you an overall average for gearing
vale pine
no apex makes dance less strong, which leads to having high haste benefits
we might just settle with low haste in midnight and invest in other stats around the 12-17% mark
short radish
rogues are the ones who created dungeon slice ^^
is that why it only works for rogue
fallow nimbus
Yeah but when it says 12% does it mean 12% from pure haste stat or the + extra wierd 3% that isn't real pure 3% extra from alacrity that shows in the character window
vale pine
is that why it only works for rogue
thats a bigger discussion tbh
lilac stag
is that why it only works for rogue
you have to actually put work into making it work.
vale pine
but the short version, just go with what discords tell you
lilac stag
Theoretically every TC should be better in midnight due to less shit to sort out.
vale pine
the longer version is, if a class/spec supports mixed fight styles and multiple targets, its usually good to go for dungeon slice
some casters had some issues with it, but that should be resolved already for years now
tho opinions on the fight style are wildly diffrent depending on the community
which is where the entire discussion around "its bad for x/y" comes from
short radish
vale pine
to be clear, this discussion could be around any fight style thats not patchwerk
its just more polarized around dungeon slice, because it has the word "dungeon" in it
lilac stag
<a:Noted:1079951985559740427>
short radish
one of my mate refuses to touch dungeon slice still and doesnt believe it works for rogues
vale pine
dungeon slice basically does something rather unique
fallow nimbus
I need answers for haste. Base stat or + alacrity?
vale pine
it optimizes for 2 things:
- Low effort to support
- Mobs dying / restalths / abilities which work once per target
this is done by starting the fight with the boss fight
so one longer single target sequence at the start
lilac stag
one of my mate refuses to touch dungeon slice still and doesnt believe it works ...
You still have to think with it. It’s going to give you what it sees as best gearing options with a slight favor to ST dmg. You can take this info and make decisions based on using your 🧠
Stuff like TFD won’t show up in it.
vale pine
so apl's don't need special conditions to have bl/pots/etc on the boss fights
short radish
You still have to think with it. It’s going to give you what it sees as best gea...
instructions unclear, listening to the clanker
vale pine
and after that it alternates between 2 group sizes of mobs it spawns
lilac stag
instructions unclear, listening to the clanker
vale pine
which are both randomized in size and legth each individual mob is up
so packs naturally get smaller, like in a dungeon
this means fights spread out around diffrent target counts, e.g. like here
the spread is infrequently adjusted a bit by changing duration/randomness in the fight style
lilac stag
8 count is where you lust. Get that 20 second sim in. /s 
vale pine
but overall based somewhat on log data (as the spread is roughly what was in logs when created/maintained)
that said, if you pull 80 mobs at once, or play other strategies which are not as generally used
it won't fit your needs
lilac stag
it’s a solid tool, not perfect but nothing ever will be matching your exact pulls in any sim.
vale pine
exactly
its a good baseline
anything more you need to do a mix of simulaitons and analyze behavior
(which tbh you only rly need in the 0.01% of keys)
vale pine
there are some downsides tho
lilac stag
dslice involves thinking? It’s trash. 
vale pine
e.g. mobs might not survive long enough to make dot based specs perfectly represented
vale pine
e.g. you see assassiantion often slightly worse in sims than actual dungeons
lilac stag
lilac stag
azure thicket
always gonna have prism stacks for bosses or danger packs
lilac stag
Just haven’t gotten to use that in a while.
azure thicket
hopefully we get trinket support for cdm so they can keep putting netherprisms in the game and stuff
lilac stag
Lily + passive likely seems best option for general dungeon use
azure thicket
ye 130 cd and stats makes the most sense rn
keep meaning to setup better cdm or tweaks but the bugs and also painting stuff in my free time
lilac stag
ArcUI has had the least “bugs” for me, it just has a curve to figuring out what is doing what where
Kinda like opening WA for the first time
tribal blade
play lily, don't think, do good dps win win
upbeat cradle
What are the different haste breakpoints currently? Only 15% and 35% ?
lilac stag
I wonder how screams is for sub in keys since it has some cleave
lilac stag
What are the different haste breakpoints currently? Only 15% and 35% ?
Sim your gear. There’s spots in between. Prepatch wants more haste than less because of dance length and no real tier bonuses
prime raft
ArcUI has had the least “bugs” for me, it just has a curve to figuring out what ...
is this on Curseforge?
lilac stag
Mmhm
torn tide
arcui and better cooldown manager are the 2 popular cdm enhancements
its just a preference right?
lilac stag
right now I think arc is the only one with alpha control
torn tide
theres no "this one is way better" or something
lilac stag
Which is huge for me. Removes soooo much screen clutter
vale pine
its just a preference right?
yes
every addon comes with its own set of constraints
so people just use what works best for them
lilac stag
We’re all going to be UI designers or lexthos downloaders. Haha
vale pine
i still don't think the addon economy has standardized something
the benefit of the change is
elvui, even tho still heavy
now can't hog your ressources as much
so instead of trading of 13-30 fps, its more like 5 possibly
hazy breach
The first one is a supercharged coup, the second is just a regular eviscerate so ofc its gonna do like 45% of the couped one (i stalked your logs to double check )
lilac stag
so instead of trading of 13-30 fps, its more like 5 possibly
I’m hoping they are able to streamline. I also don’t know if they actually know how to.
lilac stag
Correct
vale pine
so i don't know if they want to change the addon/configuration
lilac stag
It’s the windows ME of ui addons
It was nice to see the cross hair and cursor stuff got made pretty quickly
vale pine
there are a lot more "tweak" tools now
also a lot of "does everything" ones, tho they seem all vibe coded
prime raft
all these addon changes making me wanna go play TBC but sub is butt so
vale pine
(implementing and testing to the extend of features they offer seems to not match how fast they implemented and added new features)
vale pine
all these addon changes making me wanna go play TBC but sub is butt so
ui things will get better with midnight
i hope quartz will get updated soon
lilac stag
the struggle right now is overlapping addons interfering.
when they shouldn’t overlap
the cdm stuff really feels like the wild Wild West and I have to imagine that’s just blizzards base code being oof
vale pine
people still figure out the restrictions and potental problem sectors
azure thicket
at least they didn't do weirdo stuff with in-house file extensions and completely lock it
lilac stag
it’s funny seeing Elv call all the buffs and debuffs that you can’t filter
and then still having filters in, but they do nothing but all on or all off
red vortex
elvui, even tho still heavy
Its not that heavy anymore
red vortex
Read that as in, the old state but fair
vale pine
its rly not much compared
still more than using standalone addons
i don't know how well you can profile addons now
but i would be interessted in comparing multiple
lilac stag
You can look at cpu usage and memory still
vale pine
You can look at cpu usage and memory still
can you log it in combat, e.g. do addons like this still work
lilac stag
can you log it in combat, e.g. do addons like [this](https://www.curseforge.com/...
I haven’t tried logging, but you can have profile running when hitting dummies
vale pine
because you would want to collect data for more than a momentary snapshot
i might look if there is a 12.0 version of a cpu profiler
lilac stag
I’m also wondering if you’re better off just running elv and disabling everything you don’t need vs trying to piece together a bunch of similar stuff from different authors.
vale pine
possibly
because you don't need to search for addons
which was always the use case of elv
lilac stag
and updates centralized
stiff horizon
Is it true that when other people are logging, a Subtlety Rogue isn’t shown correctly because shadow damage is being dealt?
lilac stag
That img was amazing
vale pine
haha ^^
lilac stag
Worth the download just for that
vale pine
Is it true that when other people are logging, a Subtlety Rogue isn’t shown corr...
shadow clone attacks are not attributed correctly if the boss fight has the one logging and you too far apart
vale pine
and updates centralized
you mean one author for everything
i guess
true, i forgot to specify, its only secret techniques shadow clone attacks
analog granite
out of curiosity what apm is sub on nowadays st
Wondering about this as well. Now that outlaw is slower paced and assa is energy starved even in aoe
hazy breach
About the same as before
analog granite
Gonna give sub another try then. I'm not sure if other people are experiencing this but I've currently reached a point where I want to play wow and the next expansion but I can't find a single spec I enjoy after all the changes
slate marlin
well what do you want in a spec
analog granite
Assa was already too slow for me and now it's slower even in aoe, the only appeal outlaw had for me was the high apm
And sub seems oversimplified with the potential to get boring quickly
slate marlin
enh is still high apm
lilac stag
out of curiosity what apm is sub on nowadays st
Prepatch. Keep in mind it may feel slightly faster because we’re hitting more dmg abilities and less cds stacking.
analog granite
enh is still high apm
I've always mained dk and then had either lock or rogue as an alt. Other classes dont really interest me apart from havoc dh
Always been an unholy main but that's no longer the same spec so idk man
lilac stag
Gonna give sub another try then. I'm not sure if other people are experiencing t...
That means you don’t want to play wow if gameplay matters to you.
Also prepatch not a great judge
analog granite
I mean wow is kinda like an experience and it's possible to want to return to that experience
azure thicket
scalecommander dev evoker might be a fun side pick
analog granite
But if specs aren't fun then yeah
lilac stag
fun is up to the individual
analog granite
aff seems to be very fun now
Yeah lock was kinda my last hope
azure thicket
tried flameshaper last season and the class squish stuff is still more engaging than that rotation
idk if you're supposed to offheal or what but ye
lilac stag
assa still very much assa. Sub still sub at the core. Outlaw still outlaw. Tempo just getting adjusted across the board.
Everything slows down when there’s a new expansion. Eventually builds back up.
People going to complain again at lvl 86 when all of the sudden they’re getting weaker instead of stronger while leveling.
hazy breach
I dont think thats gonna be as much of a thing this expac
Its usually the tier set/legendaries/other powers that you lose that is the source of that feeling
But theyve already taken our tier sets and theres not much else left in those categories
lilac stag
ask shadow priests how losing all the haste feels. 
warm marlin
You went from being a god at level 71-72 in tww dungeons to useless at 77-78 at the start of the expac
and it was just funky scaling
lilac stag
hopefully it’s not as awful
but confidence in blizz, bugs and scaling not exactly high
warm marlin
we were running splits with people's level 71 tank alts to powerlevel 4 important characters to 80
red flame
You went from being a god at level 71-72 in tww dungeons to useless at 77-78 at ...
This is so fkn real
lilac stag
we were running splits with people's level 71 tank alts to powerlevel 4 importan...
That’s also not the normal leveling experience.
hazy breach
Yeah but they adjusted it after like 2 weeks, so surely they dont make the same tuning mistakes two times in a row
lilac stag
warm marlin
mhm yes certainly 
ripe flame
Surely
chrome palm
dont worry
lilac stag
well. We are ahead of schedule on sub bug fixes
chrome palm
if you have early access you can take advantage of the early levelling exploits before they are fixed for the poor people
blizzard keeping the prols down
lilac stag
surely they remember to ship the version live with those fixes
ripe flame
Love being a beta tester
warm marlin
the people on the beach at max level once the expac actually dropped calling every low level a brokey
chrome palm
<:omegalul:360538346780622849> the people on the beach at max level once the ex...
classic
hazy breach
Man i hate how this worked out so well for them 
chrome palm
eleem do you have early access
hazy breach
The whole "prerelease" for extra money
warm marlin
It's a bit gross but also levelling during that time was 8x better (I buy the big edition regardless)
lilac stag
Ie paying for alpha and beta
warm marlin
the servers were perfectly stable and people in levelling dungeons were far more competent than full release
lilac stag
you all get to have the N.A. experience once per expansion.
azure thicket
i missed the start of season 3 lol
sullen hare
Man i hate how this worked out so well for them <:sadge:820202363359854633>
I'll be the only one in my friends list not playing 3 days early. It's why I never went back to d4 after season 0
azure thicket
the welcome fit though lmao
vagrant fulcrum
Prepatch. Keep in mind it may feel slightly faster because we’re hitting more dm...
ty scath
shrewd lantern
In all fairness
every iteration of outlaw feels slow after you experience the df prepatch spec
plush roost
every iteration of outlaw feels slow after you experience the df prepatch spec
o7 to 0 .7 gcd AR
vagrant fulcrum
ye based honestly
for me this feels like pre-rework sub again
im getting used to mashing
ngl been playing mostly mage to finish up its gear for boosting this week
lilac stag
I’m most interested to see what they do from s1 to s2
graceful rock
I fell down the endeavor hole yesterday
lilac stag
I can chill for a for like this.
vagrant fulcrum
I’m most interested to see what they do from s1 to s2
idk why I feel like they're gonna add some delve belt shit and it will have active abilities like essences
lilac stag
I’ll level up my SV or DH for grins
lilac stag
idk why I feel like they're gonna add some delve belt shit and it will have acti...
I think that’ll be s3
S2 they’ll likely work on some class / spec stuff and tier sets
up the raid difficulty
vagrant fulcrum
i reckon once people get used to new class designs they'll be hungry for complexity by s2
vagrant fulcrum
up the raid difficulty
interesting point actually
since lowkey I think nerb'ar might have been the hardest raid
of this expac
but next expac diff obv
lilac stag
sadly blizzard has no data of what this will look like so we are in test the waters
lilac stag
since lowkey I think nerb'ar might have been the hardest raid
By numbers, manaforge no?
graceful rock
I mean blizzard said the class/addon pruning was just adjusting what skills challenge you during the content right
I think season 2 they’ll really be able to cook in terms of the raid
lilac stag
saying one thing and watching it play out in the hands of millions are 2 very different realities
graceful rock
True, it’s blizzards word we’re talking about
lilac stag
it’s any devs words
They have goal. If they hit or miss is part of the experience.
Gally was a miss (hidden abilities in dungeon journal)
They likely overcorrected in s3 with Dimmy
graceful rock
Yeah I’ve only mythic raided 2 tiers, but yeah I think the ideal end boss lands somewhere in the middle of those 2
lilac stag
Nera’ba was likely tuned ok, but they fucked over some late tier CE guilds with the late class tuning.
plush roost
Gally was a miss (hidden abilities in dungeon journal)
P3 gally would have been the same with or without a dungeon journal simply because there were absolutrly no mechanic overlaps.
How come there wasnt a rocket blaze line + suppression spark overlap? The soak at the same time as a frontal bait etc
Imagine how much harder that fight would be in that little triangle with get out mechanics dodging lines other people create
graceful rock
Yeah the hardest part of gally being the 3rd canister soak and then basically just being a target dummy after that was pretty weird
plush roost
Yeah the 3rd canisters overlapping with the frontal bait was legit the only real overlap
hazy breach
P3 gally would have been the same with or without a dungeon journal simply becau...
Another thing is that you were never really forced to use the bomb people for mechanics
plush roost
Imagine a bomb swap every minute or so in the fight until all 20 people have a bomb strapped to them
Thats an enrage
My cook was that when p2 started we'd activate DRIVE and go down that hole in the middle to a secret area
Alas no cool DRIVE boss
plush roost
Yeeee
graceful rock
And then have a final dps burn
plush roost
And collect orbs and drift
hazy breach
Im sure they were planning to have a DRIVE boss but it didnt work wout for some reason
azure thicket
i would love a fight where tanks are far away from each other and dps had to chase boss as it swaps
plush roost
Then boom burn the shield at start of fight again
ripe flame
And collect orbs and drift
would've been cool but shit that would've caused like 75% of wipes
plush roost
would've been cool but shit that would've caused like 75% of wipes
Idc that shits cool worth
ripe flame
unless it was like a straight line
plush roost
But ye, end boss probably not legal
"And Method wins the race because they drive better!!!"
stiff horizon
shadow clone attacks are not attributed correctly if the boss fight has the one ...
Will this get fixed?
plush roost
Haha
hazy breach
I mean they did add dragonriding on the penultimate boss in amirdrasil
azure thicket
probably stix
lilac stag
P3 gally would have been the same with or without a dungeon journal simply becau...
Yeah I meant more of they tried the journal and it ended up way undercooked. Idk if they would have done it differently if the journal listed abilities or they just ran out of time.
azure thicket
road pancake the recyclers lol
hazy breach
Will this get fixed?
Its been in the game since dragonflight beta, so wouldnt count on it
plush roost
I mean they did add dragonriding on the penultimate boss in amirdrasil
Ye but dragonriding is waaaay less janky than DRIVR
hazy breach
For sure
lilac stag
i would love a fight where tanks are far away from each other and dps had to cha...
So the second fight of s2 
plush roost
Cauldron but with extra steps
stiff horizon
Its been in the game since dragonflight beta, so wouldnt count on it
Does it often happen in a raid that the person is too far away?
graceful rock
Tindral/Fyrakk were bosses I have extreme fomo of
azure thicket
yeah but the raid is split doing separate mechanics
plush roost
yeah but the raid is split doing separate mechanics
Amalgamation chamber
lilac stag
yeah but the raid is split doing separate mechanics
So cauldron. Hahah
azure thicket
throw a little ansurek in there
hazy breach
Does it often happen in a raid that the person is too far away?
Too far is 100 yards, so pretty much only happens on bosses where you split the group up to different platforms (dimensius p1, nexus king, cauldron of carnage from s2 are a few examples)
azure thicket
my brain only goes as far as bwd
lilac stag
idk the visual shit show in the middle sucked
red vortex
always log urself
lilac stag
wtb new eyes
plush roost
idk the visual shit show in the middle sucked
On the contrary, that fight needed a flarendo bomb and lightning gorilla swirls during the intermission
That would go crazy style
Second boss of raid has to be ez zzz
stiff horizon
Too far is 100 yards, so pretty much only happens on bosses where you split the ...
Roughly how much does that affect your total damage overall? And is it worth communicating this to the raid leader if they’re not aware of it?
lilac stag
idk how many times we recleared. It’s never felt like there was a spot I wanted to stand in
hazy breach
The clones show up in the log
plush roost
Roughly how much does that affect your total damage overall? And is it worth com...
Doesnt affect your actual damage
Just log stuff
hazy breach
Theyre just showing as a seperate player, so you just say "thats my damage as well btw"
plush roost
idk how many times we recleared. It’s never felt like there was a spot I wanted ...
Best spot was right inbetween the 2 of them
lilac stag
If blizzard never sees it in logs, we get buffed. Frfr 
stiff horizon
Okay thanks
lilac stag
Best spot was right inbetween the 2 of them
except for all the friendly aoe ground effects making it impossible for me to separate any spells.
azure thicket
Amalgamation chamber
i had to look and yeah but the raid tanks are the two elementals
hazy breach
Okay thanks
Here an example of how its looks in the log
azure thicket
maybe a little broodtwister/that one elemental guy from df
where he gets abilities based on what zone he's fought in
lilac stag
those get boring as soon as they’re sorted out for optimal movements
void ocean
fckin Akaari below tanks and healers, not even trying
graceful rock
I lost a rank 4 nexus king to not logging so I’ll never not log raid ever again
stiff horizon
Here an example of how its looks in the log
Thanks. That sucks but okay 👍
swift tinsel
Procedurally generated raids
azure thicket
yeah mess with the tank who's not holding boss and some dps somehow i.e necrotic wake last/sarkareth down phase
tbh there were no down phase mechanics this season
vale pine
Will this get fixed?
unlikely, the bug exists for years now
void ocean
yea, they gotta add hide and seek to the game, who cares about bugs
lilac stag
I wonder if we get a dont stack on top of each other on two levels again
seems that would fit in with their can’t WA shit
void ocean
its diffrent teams
naah, teams are different, but ppl underneath are usually shifted depending on priorities
woeful wren
Do we have sims working for beta at all yet?
void ocean
i doubt blizz was like lets hire 20 new devs
vale pine
Do we have sims working for beta at all yet?
yes, you can sim beta
torn tide
i doubt blizz was like lets hire 20 new devs
mustve hired 20 pre grads
with the amount of shit getting bugged n stuff
void ocean
mustve hired 20 pre grads
vibecoded
torn tide
"chatgpt how do i code for wow 2026 steps"
hazy breach
Y'all seem to be under the impression this is new
void ocean
im not
torn tide
Y'all seem to be under the impression this is new
i thought it wasnt so bad until now tho
like not as unbearable
hazy breach
Probably because youre more invested and reading about it here
void ocean
but their side-shit becomes more and more complex ergo i believe more and more ppl are pulled away from the important things
torn tide
ye
torn tide
Probably because youre more invested and reading about it here
could be
void ocean
i believe they could've done this in stages and i will die on this hill
lilac stag
Addon stages would have been worse. Like a slow rip of the bandaid. They just didn’t allocate enough resources to developing the most important part of the UI. CDs
If CDM was good, everyone would be happier I think.
Unfortunately it’s undercooked worse than gally
void ocean
yea but how many resources do u need to replace 15 years of dedicated work in 6 months
swift tinsel
and its also something as personalized as a UI
shrewd lantern
are people just forgetting blizz limited api functionality
swift tinsel
and having an extremely flexible tool like Weakauras
lilac stag
CDM, nameplates and accessibility are the only critical item. Everything else is qol (which I get sucks to lose). I hear it every time a character panel broke all of the ui
void ocean
yea but imho ui WA should've been removed last. maybe like s3 of midnight
swift tinsel
well
lilac stag
how the fuck are you doing that?
shrewd lantern
that was the developer's choice to not want to continue updating
swift tinsel
part of it is WA just not wanting to roll with the punches
void ocean
id remove fight calculations first
shrewd lantern
with the limited functionality
swift tinsel
yeah, and tbf blizz did say it was going to be a more metered approach in how they were going to limit functionality
and in turn do the complete opposite
void ocean
like details as well, did it rly need to be in the first wave
swift tinsel
go scorched earth and then walkback a step or two at a time
azure thicket
oh other large flub you can't control the direction of the text on the event tracker
void ocean
couldnt we live with details addon for a while
azure thicket
it always pops out to the left
lilac stag
You do realize WA could have done nearly everything to fit into doing what you want. They chose not to (and I don’t blame them).
shrewd lantern
details still works technically
azure thicket
in vertical mode
void ocean
details still works technically
yea but blizz still invested time into developing their thing right away, that was also a dev or two dedicated
azure thicket
void ocean
instead of doing smth else
lilac stag
people really asking addon devs to work for free
Since the beginning of computer programming. Yes
shrewd lantern
yeah but not on things that dont personally interest them
i.e limiting the functionality of their creation
hazy breach
We wouldnt need so many addons if blizzard inherent user interface wasnt as bad
shrewd lantern
why are people pretending there isnt going to be a wa clone
swift tinsel
^^^^^
shrewd lantern
eventually
lilac stag
why are people pretending there isnt going to be a wa clone
I NEEEEEEEEEEEEED IT NOW
shrewd lantern
my only disappointment is the base ui sucks
chrome palm
i think we need to be able to track our own buffs before we get weak auras back
shrewd lantern
you need an addon to improve their inhouse cdm
swift tinsel
trying to get the base CDM to display important info in a succinct way is just not there
shrewd lantern
like lol
swift tinsel
plus
hazy breach
why are people pretending there isnt going to be a wa clone
I mean the entire idea of weakauras was to be able to track your buffs/debuffs in a better way, which is no longer possible
lilac stag
I wonder how much it would have cost them to hire one WA dev to single run CDM in UI development.
fading burrow
Hey, I see that Shadowstrike inherit the "Expose Armor" buff that backstab gives when striking from behind the target, does it also inherit the 20% bonus damage for the positional?
swift tinsel
the base cdm throws just as many Fatality errors, if not more, than any cdm addon I've used
azure thicket
abbreviations in horizontal mode
hazy breach
Hey, I see that Shadowstrike inherit the "Expose Armor" buff that backstab gives...
No, as shadowstrike and backstab are two different spells
swift tinsel
and just makes the whole cdm disappear
lilac stag
When bugsack becomes a cpu hog due to base ui errors.
🏄 🏄♀️ 👍
shrewd lantern
I mean the entire idea of weakauras was to be able to track your buffs/debuffs i...
Yeah this is all it needed to be
i personally thought the auto assign WAs were bad for the game
like, what are comms for then
lilac stag
I’m interested to see how raid leaders feel after having to manually adjust timelines every fight vs setting up the WA
The WAs were a lot of setup. This could be longer “waste of time” for prep
graceful rock
Just use the boss voice lines
hazy breach
I would be insanely surprised if addons were less relevant next tier compared to this one
hazy breach
Instead of importing a WA pack youll need multiple different addons for each thing
shrewd lantern
bosses like echo of nelth were a mistake
hazy breach
And instead of a neat auraupdater allowing you to update all of them its gonna be a nightmare to check who has the updated versions
red vortex
i mean, WA themselfs just said we aint doing this
hazy breach
"please read this powerpoint of boss positioning"
Less WAs = more powerpoint though
vale pine
Less WAs = more powerpoint though
we need powerpoint in wow, haha
lilac stag
And excel
swift tinsel
can you still draw notes in MRT? or was that killed
red vortex
add an ai model to it too while ur at it
shrewd lantern
though i felt a fair number of wa existed
because people are incapable of queueing mic
seen so many wipes due to lack of just
talking
hazy breach
Idk call me a doomer but i dont think these changes are gonna make mythic raiding any more fun or accessible, maybe long term, but this first raid is sure to be a shitfest
swift tinsel
I wouldnt be surprised if this first season turns people off from it for a bit
hazy breach
Me as someone who thinks CE becomes too handoutish
I think thats delusional, but you do you
shrewd lantern
was turbo boost really necessary
swift tinsel
its a way to get people to keep subbing later on into a season
lilac stag
They’ve always tured the raid. They’re just doing it with gear vs raid, which keep engagement higher across not only raid but other areas.
torn tide
its a way to get people to keep subbing later on into a season
blizzard REALLY needs that cash
shrewd lantern
i mean they do all 3 now
swift tinsel
blizzard REALLY needs that cash
its a business...
swift tinsel
turbo boost doesn't just affect raid
lilac stag
turbo has helped with our worst enemy (roster boss) more than anything else
swift tinsel
look at keys too
torn tide
its a business...
well yea but tactics like that is sad
shrewd lantern
i think thats the interesting thing
roster boss is seemingly more an issue at the lower end
swift tinsel
well yea but tactics like that is sad
its a mostly seasonal model but there's still ways to prolong each season
so not really sad
lilac stag
And unless you’re HOF does it really matter if another 200+ guilds after your WR 650 kill the boss?
swift tinsel
I mean the lower end are typically your dad gamers or ones who dabble in raid and are less likely to feel committed
void ocean
And unless you’re HOF does it really matter if another 200+ guilds after your WR...
BUCK STOPS HERE
shrewd lantern
its more of interesting how i actually think CE has become the norm
swift tinsel
vs people who are actively trying to progress
swift tinsel
lmao it is nowhere near the norm
lilac stag
It’s hardly the norm
swift tinsel
not even AotC is the norm
lilac stag
It’s further from it than it ever has been
shrewd lantern
i meant from people actually playing serious
lilac stag
Dimmy was a absolute bitch consistently for all levels of CE guilds
swift tinsel
even with that metric in mind
granite hinge
Less than 5% people rn achieve CE i guess Is not the norm
lilac stag
serious
azure thicket
most people don't play this game to enjoy competitive vvibes
torn tide
I tried pugging mythic Kyveza yesterday for the weapon mog
shitt i forgot about that, i need that mog
shrewd lantern
vs people who are actively trying to progress
i specified towards this subsection
woeful wren
Dimmy was a absolute bitch consistently for all levels of CE guilds
This. So many ways for ppl to grief the fight. If u didn't get mechanics on the correct ppl its a wipe for most guilds
lilac stag
only serious gamers. You know the ones still setting 3+ days aside to commit to it, along with their kids and family
swift tinsel
i specified towards this subsection
my comment was about the roster boss not your CE message
lilac stag
living in your parents basement raiding 5 nights as week as a 3 night a week guild isn’t the only player base that should be able to push high end raid content.
shrewd lantern
yeah but i meant for that group
also arent most wow players adults atp
who tf is new and plays
lilac stag
all the genz kids of boomers
swift tinsel
yeah I've noticed a fair number of generational zoomers coming to play bc their parents did
lilac stag
That have likely been playing since they were 6
swift tinsel
uh like five people in our raid team
chrome palm
They’ve always tured the raid. They’re just doing it with gear vs raid, which ke...
turbo+raid buff just makes reclear unfun
lilac stag
We had 3 in here 2 days ago
swift tinsel
plus a dozen more in the guild who don't raid
void ocean
all the genz kids of boomers
they raiding housing
chrome palm
bosses die in 3 minutes, add spawns evaporate in <1s
lilac stag
turbo+raid buff just makes reclear unfun
Guess what, it’s never going to be fun. It makes it more fun for everyone else.
torn tide
That have likely been playing since they were 6
mans telling my life's story wtf
shrewd lantern
yeah idk turbo and raid buff just makes shit a pain in the ass
torn tide
mans telling my life's story wtf
but i dont do raiding i do mythic+
tepid trellis
condolences
chrome palm
also, if youre not hof, you dont get the chance to prog hard bosses
lilac stag
Elite raiders complaining about reclears. Shocker
tepid trellis
also, if youre not hof, you dont get the chance to prog hard bosses
even in HoF you dont
chrome palm
right
tepid trellis
if you arent top 20 u get shafted
azure thicket
honestly you should get one dinar pre turbo boost
chrome palm
forgeweaver nuked into oblivion
that fight was so fun until those heavy handed nerfs
azure thicket
as a treat for getting aotc
graceful rock
Blizzard just needs to stand on business more
Like yeah forgeweaver is supposed to be this hard
chrome palm
it needed some nerf but not what it got
shrewd lantern
honestly most guild killer or wall bosses are basically the ones where a mechanic can target the bad player in your raid
and wipe the group
swift tinsel
I'm really hoping the standalone raid bosses coming up are just really fucking difficult
chrome palm
like 3 echos was extremely silly, but the orbs didnt need to get nerfed like they did imo
tepid trellis
I'm really hoping the standalone raid bosses coming up are just really fucking d...
highly doubt
azure thicket
how many alts do hardcore raiding guilds run to fish for bis loot etc
azure thicket
that's how you so it that's how you spell diabolical
lilac stag
I can’t wait for bitching about mythic splits to start soonTM
azure thicket
looks at hafmart my gnome rogue back up
tepid trellis
i know some top 10 wr like FSY is doing 5-6 characters
woeful wren
Ppl complaining about splits raids would hate speedrunning in classic
tepid trellis
and i know a healer in Echo who has 25 characters
shrewd lantern
the funny thing is those people will often tell you
they spend less time progging a raid throughout a tier
than late CE guilds
chrome palm
keep in mind arent most wr <15 guilds 7 day
shrewd lantern
its all frontloaded prog yeah
tepid trellis
keep in mind arent most wr <15 guilds 7 day
yes
lilac stag
they spend less time progging a raid throughout a tier
That’s a scheduling an availability thing. Shocker the more time you have to slam your head against something eventually the easier it gets.
azure thicket
i mean they definitely don't use every toon every season but yeah just give a dinar for aotc
tepid trellis
its just the hours per day that swing massively between them
chrome palm
my guild does 3 characters but when i was applying none of the other guilds had more than 2
tepid trellis
i mean they definitely don't use every toon every season but yeah just give a di...
they do splits on them
lilac stag
and the longer it goes, the harder the roster boss gets
shrewd lantern
That’s a scheduling an availability thing. Shocker the more time you have to sla...
nah most late CE guilds when they increase their hours die
tepid trellis
so they do kinda play them
shrewd lantern
the same tier
lilac stag
nah most late CE guilds when they increase their hours die
I’m late tier. We’re 2 days start to finish. Optional heroic on Sunday.
None of us want to do any more
tepid trellis
last i spoke to liquids rogue exile
lilac stag
If we get it done we get it done.
tepid trellis
he had like 16 rogues
lilac stag
Doing a 3rd day first 1-2 months 100% would raise our ranks if the roster could do it.
shrewd lantern
yeah its really a matter of how much
because there are massive gaps in 2 day guilds
sullen hare
My guild does 3 days for the first month
lilac stag
and none of us care to. It’s an escape 2-3 night a week. We push the content as best we can with time we have.
tepid trellis
adding 1 extra day at a "bad" wr will give you quite a big result, until it hits the platou of people simple not learning from mistakes
void ocean
and none of us care to. It’s an escape 2-3 night a week. We push the content as ...
it would be ideal if it didnt require fckin tons of m+ as well
lilac stag
We missed s1, got gaily and dimmy while getting healer roster poached
shrewd lantern
adding 1 extra day at a "bad" wr will give you quite a big result, until it hits...
thats really what i meant
a guild cant expect to go from w600 to hof
just from adding a day or two
chrome palm
well you add a day
and suddenly billy cant play anymore
so you replace billy with someone better
shrewd lantern
assuming you can find someone better
graceful rock
Poor Billy
void ocean
fck Billy
shrewd lantern
who wants to play in a guild wihtout a track record
chrome palm
i think grouch's guild basically did this
shrewd lantern
thats the hard part
sullen hare
so you replace billy with someone better
That someone then leaves the guild at the end of the tier and Billy isn't playing anymore 
shrewd lantern
recruiting becomes easier once you get a rank
lilac stag
chrome palm
That someone then leaves the guild at the end of the tier and Billy isn't playin...
well
you just keep shovelling coal into the furnace
shrewd lantern
but i still feel someone if they can raid 4d would prefer going to a guild that has a record of ending tiers of higher ranks
between option a or b
lilac stag
you do realize not everyone gives a fucking rip about hof and wr and just want to have fun with the more difficult content?
Or do you just have a hardon for WR of digital dragon kills?
void ocean
well yea, the idea is kinda that u raid with ppl of similar skills, availability etc...
chrome palm
yeah but if you raid like 4 days or something and arent hof its just not fun
shrewd lantern
im literally just talking the point of adding a day and recruiting talent
doesnt always align
tepid trellis
tbf higher wr does equate to more difficult content so they do sorta go hand in hand
shrewd lantern
if you dont have a record
shrewd lantern
yeah but if you raid like 4 days or something and arent hof its just not fun
real
tepid trellis
well fun is very subjective
lilac stag
tbf higher wr does equate to more difficult content so they do sorta go hand in ...
From 20- 400 it’s copying RWF strats for the most part.
shrewd lantern
well yea, the idea is kinda that u raid with ppl of similar skills, availability...
Yeah this is what i meant
tepid trellis
From 20- 400 it’s copying RWF strats for the most part.
3-100000
shrewd lantern
but if someone has more availability they will prefer to go somewhere of higher skill
tepid trellis
get it right
shrewd lantern
that raids those hours
lilac stag
I was trying to be nice
chrome palm
i mean you are doing fights where the same people are wiping you every time if youre raiding 4 days without hof, it gets old really fast
shrewd lantern
instead of "we will do better with this"
chrome palm
or like the gm has to beg people to fill vault, etc
tepid trellis
some people also just really like the guild they are in
azure thicket
raids this season are gonna be hilarious i think
lilac stag
I get along with 20’ of our 25 players. I’m stuck waiting to see how accessibility is. If the game isn’t fun. I’m gone. If the guild blows up. I’m gone. No intrest in finding new people I tolerate let alone enjoy hanging out with 2 raid nights.
sullen hare
some people also just really like the guild they are in
I went to a guild for a tier that was better than the one I was in. It was a burnout factory plain and simple. After that it was back to old familiar
shrewd lantern
Either way the point wasn't saying raiding slower is worse
azure thicket
really looking forward to seeing uptime stats
graceful rock
Turns out games are more fun with your friends
shrewd lantern
just that the entire "if we raid more we spike in ranks" is often not realistic
tepid trellis
example (sorry whispyr) like he actually raids quite alot but the WR isnt that great, but he really fcking loves playing with the people which is all that really matters unless you are tryna compete
shrewd lantern
seen so many guilds that think adding a day or splits
will push them over 200 wr
in a tier
novel plaza
What’s the best pre patch M+ spec currently?
lilac stag
Nah. For many it’s trying to not extend the tier so long you fight the roster boss.
shrewd lantern
then proceed to die
sullen hare
What’s the best pre patch M+ spec currently?
Unholy dk
shrewd lantern
roster boss is alot more real at the lower end
since uh
you dont see progress being made
for the time you put in
so your good players leave
swift tinsel
I actually have no idea what our wr is
maiden oar
i think grouch's guild basically did this
no idea
lilac stag
5-6/8 is mythic player and guild purgatory
tepid trellis
reason i raid where i do is simply because i dont have the time to raid more
torn tide
What’s the best pre patch M+ spec currently?
sub rogue trust
shrewd lantern
unless you just enjoy the people you play with
maiden oar
i was in a wr 1800 guild in lou
tepid trellis
otherwise i think id be playing somewhere in top 10
maiden oar
and i just apped to my current guild
swift tinsel
oo nice wr 5073 lol
tepid trellis
so i raid in a 2 day 10 hour weekend guild thats around wr 30
maiden oar
but i think the one im currently in was like alot of people who had a history of being in higher ranked guilds in sl or something
so the wr they got in nerubar was kinda fake
idk the deep lore
shrewd lantern
i do think eu guilds are more time efficient i seen
tepid trellis
well we do have a few RWF people
shrewd lantern
idk if you guys add days stealthi
tepid trellis
we do not
lilac stag
but i think the one im currently in was like alot of people who had a history of...
Old guilds burn out, portions combine. New guild to burn out.
maiden oar
Old guilds burn out, portions combine. New guild to burn out.
oh no it was a brand new guild made by ex hof guys who played classic together
but i am not a part of that history i think
i just showed up for mfo as a trial
lilac stag
we did 2 day no OT. Hit 500 N.A. no idea where that was world, mostly because we don’t care since our recruiting in NA.
maiden oar
and before that in lou (my first tier) i raided w the guys who got the last ansurek kill na
tepid trellis
i think the higher end 2 days on na
RL is healer in echo, and he honestly does a banger job and fixing things when people make mistakes
lilac stag
different priorities for different folk
shrewd lantern
Yeah thats a thing nice about weekend guilds
tepid trellis
most proactive raid leader ive had
shrewd lantern
sometimes you just get better players who want to play alts
in their non main days
maiden oar
id like to fight an unnerfed end boss one day personally
so eventually i will have to go up
lilac stag
Big goals
maiden oar
but i think i gotta practice being good @ things that arent having good logs first
lilac stag
find a sugar daddy/mommy
maiden oar
bc my logs are good enough to get a trial somewhere nice but if im permabenched/taken advantage of for splits or if i fail my trial whats the point hehe
lilac stag
Raid 24/7
chrome palm
rogue is so free man you just feint and do damage
maiden oar
oh ok i can feint and do damage
lilac stag
need to make sure im good enough @ prog first
Get those prepatch logs up
maiden oar
no one remembers cheat death grouch
tepid trellis
my interest in wow drops to almost 0% after prog is over
graceful rock
I feel like you gotta turbo int to fail a trial
shrewd lantern
i mean one of our better dps
maiden oar
yea progs the best
shrewd lantern
was a shaman we always memed
lilac stag
our RL calls out cheat every time a rogue procs it.
shrewd lantern
had ankh on cd
lilac stag
Our shaman is perma ankh on cd
chrome palm
well, its better than dreaded phrase: "get him up"
shrewd lantern
i've seen diabolical shit this expac
like a dk who died the most to ansurek yanks
of all the melee
maiden oar
rogue is so free man you just feint and do damage
i think given the pruning i might become a multi class guy
ill think about it
rogue will always be my favorite though
chrome palm
if you want to m+ you should probably multiclass
lilac stag
I often wonder how closely hof guilds actually look at logs
maiden oar
if you want to m+ you should probably multiclass
yea i should
tepid trellis
I feel like you gotta turbo int to fail a trial
very much depends on the rank you are trialing in, but in most guilds ive been in getting the "trial" spot is the hard part, we didn't accept people unless we were 99% sure they would be what we wanted
maiden oar
very much depends on the rank you are trialing in, but in most guilds ive been i...
noted
shrewd lantern
tbf
lilac stag
yea I’d assume so
chrome palm
but also as a rogue, there is usually a spot in a guild for you to just be the rogue guy
at least for raid imo
maiden oar
ive heard horror stories of like very high rank na guilds accepting ppl as trials and then taking advantage of them for splits and then benching them until they quit
chrome palm
its like warlock or mage
tepid trellis
but also the last 4 or so years ive been at the same WR is 30-60
maiden oar
so i am wary
lilac stag
You should be able to see some of the guilds recruiting / roster moves
torn tide
but also as a rogue, there is usually a spot in a guild for you to just be the r...
is rogue super important in raids or something?
tepid trellis
same as any raid buff
shrewd lantern
its a raid buff on the most underplayed class
chrome palm
its like mage or warlock, as a rogue you never have to tank or healer and you pretty much always need 1 rogue minimum
maiden oar
pretty sure thats alot of the guilds in the us top 50
my guilds in there and they dont do that
but if i want to go to unnerfed endboss type of guild then its a risk!
chrome palm
so if youre a dps war you probably wanna multiclass
maiden oar
so i need to be prepared first i think
chrome palm
since it might be a tank war tier