subtlety

[sullen hare]

hanlons razor

[narrow sparrow]

!MACROS

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[narrow sparrow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[odd salmon]

Do you lads try to focus on applying ruptures during burst window in m+ or is it just not worth it

cause during that time the dmg of rupture jumps up to +10mil over 32 seconds

Or do you just mostly ignore rupture in m+

Usually when the tank is grouping the mobs i spend that time slapping rupture on most of the mobs and then start using black powder etc

[vale pine]

you want to apply rupture before using cooldows or when the tank gathers mobs

[fallow nimbus]

That's another reason rupture goes away

[odd salmon]

Wait wait

rupture is going away?

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

[odd salmon]

Well i didnt see that coming

Only from sub?

[fallow nimbus]

Everything you learned is void in a few weeks

Yes

[odd salmon]

Not just learned but re-learned

I actually used to be a good rogue

What kind of overall dps are you lads managing to pull in m+?

[fallow nimbus]

My best with randoms was 10mio overall

[odd salmon]

Cause funnily enough i havent seen a single rogue in m+ in the past two months so i have nothing to compare to

[fallow nimbus]

In +12 weekly

[odd salmon]

hm, im probably doing something wrong since im only sitting at around 6-7 mil depending on the dungeon

[fallow nimbus]

You focus too much on rupture

Or try to funnel instead of bp blast

[cursive tundra]

that sounds like my last 10 outlaw runs

i cannot get that spec down for the life of me

0.7s gcd and you have to spam until carpal tunnel

and make 17 decisions between every single gcd

cause every ability has 5 conditions to it

and then guess if I have brainpower left to kick and get out of pools

but yeah, sub is 10m+ on decent keys

[odd salmon]

What does ur dps look like, like what abilities did most of it

[cursive tundra]

nimble flurry top
sectech
evisc/bp based on whether you focus on prio or pure aoe

[odd salmon]

this is what i had last dungeon

Which was awful

(Healer flat out refused to heal DPS)

And no, we didnt infact finish that

[cursive tundra]

ideally you want to get 2x coup during first shadow dance + sb, and while sb still lasts, use second dance and second tech

you have to make sure you have like 2 seconds left on your dance when you press your second tech

cause it takes time to land

but if it does, your dps meter pops like crazy

especially if you are running cold blood build, but that's only for like streets + dawnbreaker

in this example rupture is third, because on some packs I used BP and on some I went full evisc

so their respective damage were not on top of rupture

[odd salmon]

Okay well apparentally i was prioritising BP way too much aswell

[cursive tundra]

i mean

maybe not?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/3QcX6CH9Fv1tRprq?fight=58&type=damage-done

same dps on another 18

they also spent spamming BP

and they did just fine

maybe don't listen to me

i'm only doing 17-18s

bing chilling at 3.55k

[odd salmon]

Oh also, how come are ppl picking First Dance? I cant think of the last time i was 6+ seconds out of combat in a m+ dungeon

Or do actually just wait out till you get it

[latent finch]

First dance is kinda insane. You need to proc its just a few times and its WAY better. Like in singletarget it needs a few min to get the alternative to get even close.

[odd salmon]

Hm, i guess ill get a tracker for it

[latent finch]

Yea you can stay back or use vanish at the end of packs to proc it better but just the few time after bosses etc are still worth it its a always take talent in m+ and in some keys its insane like dawn

[cursive tundra]

vanish is your friend

if tank chainpulls

dawn breaker you get first dance naturally yeah

with pug tanks it's a bit weird, but I play with friend tanks and they anticipate this also. like they obviously chain pull, for which I vanish if next pack big. but they usually let me get 1 sec out of combat before a bl pack or something, just so I can restealth and they pull after, i chill back for 4-5 seconds until they gather the pack

it's worth it

[sage spoke]

So I focusing on black powder as the finisher with 3+ target not the move? Or is it specific use when you have a certain number of stacks?

[blissful wedge]

sup everyone, exploring sub rogue rn, i have a question, is that damage from SB on screenshot above?if so, why mine is so low, should i have it on air everytime or hold for big packs or mobs?

[shrewd lantern]

bp shouldnt be above sectech

realistically the bp vs evis argument is less dps than most people make it out to be

[odd salmon]

Hm, i do use sectech whenever its available, trying to have cooldowns for it but if theyre not up for a long time i just send it

[shrewd lantern]

i mean if sectech isnt going to be up for cds you're not supposed to send

[odd salmon]

Ah so just always wait for some cds

[shrewd lantern]

well longer you hold blades and flag

you're losing casts

and you do most of your damage in flag sb windows

[willow pulsar]

guys I am a bit confused, what does Find Weakness affect? Only auto attacks? I am on Beta trying on the dummy and my Black Power does the exact same dmg with 30% Find Weakness (Standard) and with 50% Find Weakness (Improved Find Weakness)

[odd salmon]

Well i did something way better this time

Reached 8mil overall dps

For reference my ilvl is 711

[plush roost]

Youre not using coup enough and its lowering all of your other damage, no matter what target count you use coup since its 15% finisher amp per use for 12 seconds.

This is my most recent rank 1 gambit 21 parse, should look like this

[odd salmon]

Hm, i do try to use it whenever its up

This is what my best run so far looked like, had 8mil dps but even here my coup dealt right about half the dps you did

..i wish i had logging on there so itd be easier to compare

[upbeat garden]

Saw tomelvis only using eviscerate in a hoa 21 yesterday ,didnt feel he was doing less dps than when u switch to bp

[wet echo]

word "feel" carrying a lot of weight there

[upbeat garden]

True

[latent finch]

20/21 and above are also just a different breed of keys.

[plush roost]

Yeah you can get through an entire key only eviscerating if your comp is fury feral which covers the aoe of your team anywau

And in HoA only thing stopping you from chaining is oblits houndsmaster and the shards

So just evis to go faster

Rip overall

[odd salmon]

When ive got Dance + symbols + sectech ready, should i pop sectech first or try to do ss>evis>backstab>sectech for the danse macabre stacks

Also damn it feels scuffed spamming questions all day but hey atleast im trying to get better :D

[empty plume]

if u have combo points u dance+symbols+sectech

if no combos u dance+symbols+backstab -> sectech

[quaint lodge]

Your premed is never consumed, so you do SD -> Symbols -> Sectec -> Backstab

You just change where the backstab goes based on CP

[lunar bluff]

i feel like dimmy wouldve been an all time boss if i didnt have to hold dps every phase and not send on platform 2

actual fun sub fight besides that

[uneven scarab]

hard agree

[bleak night]

I DONT WANT TO HOLD DAMAGE

I WANT TO DO DAMAGE

[uneven scarab]

1 minute backstab soup is never fun but dimmy was a great boss fight

for sure

[lunar bluff]

its the pain of raiding in a guild that gets CE quite late

[quaint lodge]

tbf theres an irony of playing sub rogue and saying that

[uneven scarab]

[quaint lodge]

like we don't backstab for like 30-40 seconds straight occasionally

[bleak night]

well yeah but im not playing sub on this boss anymore

also it was just a reference to my goat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl3DgJ7e5Gg

[lunar bluff]

the ONLY dmg save that felt good on this boss was saving end of platform 2 so u could have 14 stacks and coups ready for amp

but i was saving dmg for random dances on living masses in p1, full stop dmg end of p1, never sending cds on platform 2 and then saving/building at end of platform 2

p1 dmg being so irrelevant at this point of the tier was a bummer

[cursive vapor]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[sullen hare]

that raid definitely was #1 in damage stops. fuck that place

[red vortex]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[eager latch]

shuriken toss

[plush roost]

Pulling a shellcrusher for my tank hehe

[teal plaza]

I'm returning from a bit of a hiatus from WoW, and I was wondering people's opinion on sub going into midnight?

[vale pine]

what is there is a solid baseline

it lacks a bit in depth, so there is hope we see more things added

but wow class design in midnight seems in general simpler, so might be intentional

[teal plaza]

Ok cool, thanks

[wild hornet]

is it worth holding the shadow dance from the 2nd nullbinders set on platfrom 2 towards the 2nd shadow dance for the burn during p3 on mythic dimmy?

[prime raft]

if sub is to bad in midnight ima play surv hunter

[winter ice]

No one tell him…

[prime raft]

tell me what

i missed the ptr so

but if surv and sub is bad ima just be playing TBC

[cursive vapor]

damn what if tbc is bad ?

[prime raft]

it wont be

already played it before lol

just roll a warrior or pali and keep it moving

[winter ice]

Surv just got hit pretty hard with some dog shit changes regards to focus costs and it’s not looking great rn

[light nebula]

potentially dumb question but this is my first xpac transition - do crests become useless for upgrades at prepatch (20th)? Or at official path launch?

[prime raft]

say it aint so

[winter ice]

Still got a lot of time and they run a tight ship over there hopefully the devs listen

[alpine wraith]

actually i wonder what happens to crests but i think they do still work as they are uncapped

[empty plume]

recently tried to prepull disorienting strikes and the unseen blade stacks went away on pull

are there any specifics to note

I recall having it work before but don't know if there are more details (like unseen blade being available versus on cd when you sectech prepull)

[dry zodiac]

Pretty sure the stacks have always gone away on pull. You need to sectech and then specifically NOT press bs/strike again, and it guarantees the first 2 of the next pull will proc unseen blades.

Any stacks you’ve already gotten will reset to 0 on pull, it’s just the guaranteed “next 2” you’re carrying over

[wild hornet]

Am I tripping balls or is flag for p3 dimmy delayed

I send it on the platform 2 mini boss during his shield after skipping half of the portals and I'm still 5 seconds short of it during burn despite killing it during winds

[fallow nimbus]

You need to almost instantly flag on p2 for p3 cds

[wild hornet]

Yeah I shoved flag in my mount flight spells and I hit it during his shield before he even moves

And I'm still like 3-5 seconds short after the burn starts

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah, your teams dmg is too good then

It just gets worse

[wild hornet]

I dunno if it's worth not sending flag on the second platform

I'm skipping portals with like 0s left on flight time to get to the npc first

[fallow nimbus]

I can't even flag p2 or flag isn't ready for dmg amp at all

[wild hornet]

We are delaying damage for the 2nd dimmy smack

For the 90s ers

It's like I send it on the first and 2nd platform during shield and there were only one or two pulls max where it was less than 3 seconds off

[alpine wraith]

i can only flag first platform

not second

[empty plume]

need autumn

if u want to cd p2.2

[empty plume]

I think those stacks toward coup are called 'escalating blade' or something like that ?
when I said "stacks" of unseen blade I meant... available charges of unseen blade from disorienting strikes

so going into a pull I have 3 unseen blade strikes available and the 2 bonus from disorienting disappear on pull

sometimes I'll set up disorienting prepull and someone will feign reset boss

and my stacks go away

[wild hornet]

I don't think it's worth for me to miss a whole flag over 1/3rd / half of the burn, so I'm thinking of moving my cb for the first sectec maybe

[empty plume]

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/dimensius-the-alldevouring

depends if you're going for CE or trying to parse

lots of these people at the top are (naturally) receiving autumn during p2.2

some of them skip p2.2 cds entirely

some of them sacrifice p3 burn damage as you mentioned

just use timestamps, anything below 1:30 is autumn

[wild hornet]

No hpal in team and it's prog

I did check lorgs but most logs aren't of use to me

Due to autumn

[empty plume]

many of the examples above have no autumn and pop on p2.2 - also, plenty of them just hold for p3

clearly both viable options

so you can choose instinctively for prog

is your team struggling to push p2.2, or struggling to finish

etc

[alpine wraith]

yea i have to skip because we kill 2.1 too fast

[wild hornet]

I feel like we might struggle a bit if I hold cause we had a few pulls where the add barely almost didn't die

[empty plume]

during early prog for my guild I was popping cds on the second set of p2.2 adds, after the first winds (because nullbinders weren't dying)

fully sacrificing burn damage

to guarantee p3 pulls

eventually moved off of that, but the point is prog is pretty unique by guild and comp

[wild hornet]

I wonder if I should just suck up half of the burn and send my cb on the first sectec

We're sorta delaying for the cooldowns to come back

Since I don't know what else to do, I try to skip as many portals as I can to send flag asap

To get it rolling on cd

[empty plume]

if your guild can push p2.2 without your cds, hold them probably

if not, gg no choice anyway

depends completely on your assessment

[wild hornet]

Hm, not sure

Do you think a log can clarify it a bit?

[maiden oar]

what are your push timings

i have thought about this alot and seen many different push timings and changed stuff around

so i probably can help

[wild hornet]

Between the start of platform 1 and start of platform 2 and start of burn should be 90s

Between each

[maiden oar]

uh

[wild hornet]

Not total

[maiden oar]

ok what time does p1 die

[wild hornet]

Let me check

[maiden oar]

before or after 2:20

[wild hornet]

After

[maiden oar]

and do you see 2nd meteor on p2.1

[wild hornet]

At 2:25

[maiden oar]

and 2nd winds on p2.2

[wild hornet]

:30 latest

[maiden oar]

if you dont see 2nd meteor on p2.1 you are never getting 2 flags in p2 no matter what

[wild hornet]

Yes we gate the meteor but skip the soaks

[maiden oar]

ok

[wild hornet]

Yes we see those too

We kill him during the cast

[maiden oar]

if you see the 2nd winds on p2.2 you can flag on both platforms without autumn

but it requires being an insane dragon riding god gamer

i can link a clip

[wild hornet]

Yeah I skip half the portals

Sure send it my way

[maiden oar]

but u have to fly so fast

and flag first gcd on pargoth

[wild hornet]

Here or dms wherever u prefer

[wild hornet]

I was thinking a bit for the flight to platform 2

[maiden oar]

https://www.twitch.tv/shindigwow/clip/RefinedObliqueMochaRitzMitz-sBqUAzLCNXbQeFMD

[wild hornet]

To go under that 3rd portal under the black hole

And immediately rush towards the last portal

[maiden oar]

theres probably a clip incl the flag i can find

[wild hornet]

Right before platform

I catch up to the druids

Let me watch the clip rq

[maiden oar]

this has the flag also

he does not get autumn

has some discussion around the msg i replied to about amp with no autumn

when we saw 2x meteor i had autumn in most cases (some exceptions) but using the route in the first clip i could make it work for burn but also i didnt optimize the route too much

[wild hornet]

I see

So you just fall off immediatwly

[maiden oar]

if i had to guess 2nd clips better

[wild hornet]

Instead of flapping upwards

[maiden oar]

check this one too

this is from 0 autumn player

with your push timing

[maiden oar]

yeah i run off and slam whirling surge

[wild hornet]

What I do is when I grab that portal under the black hole I skip the next one and take the turning one

But also I could try skipping the last portal like you did

I assume it's best if I land right after dismounting

[maiden oar]

i just dismount and let the momentum carry me and step

but 0 clue if thats optimal

i think the thing i forwarded u probably is the closest to optimal

[maiden oar]

this 1

[wild hornet]

Alright I'll take a look into it

For the first flight I assume u can't skip much

I just circle the dimensius beam and skip like 2 after meteor shower

Btw @maiden oar does the miniboss start moving after all balls are taken or when the first player hits him?

[maiden oar]

hes got a shield and hes casting something

the shield gets broken by the guys who grab the orb while dragonriding

and then he is done casting

im pretty sure u die if the cast completes but i dont think ive seen it happen

[wild hornet]

So it is by the players grabbing the balls

Like when they get all he cancels cast

[maiden oar]

just enough to break the shield

i think it might be only one of them im not sure how many are required tbh

but definitely not all 3

[wild hornet]

I think I might also make a shadowstep flag macro to spam it, an issue I think I might have is the demounting part

[tepid trellis]

he moves when the shield breaks

and it only requires 1 out of 5 orbs to break it iirc

[wild hornet]

I see

So not so much time to spare

I'll try to use smth like
#showtooltip Flaggelation

/cast Flaggelation
/cast Shadow Step
/cast Flaggelation

And just hammer it down

Or maybe smth like

#showtooltip Flaggelation
/dismount [mounted]
/cast flag
/cast Shadowstep
/cast flagge

[round latch]

https://tenor.com/view/raccoon-raccoon-dancing-dancing-fat-raccoon-dance-gif-20945326

[warm marlin]

hey that's me

[ornate sparrow]

is it possible to play x1 dagger in main-hand and sword in off hand? sry for dumb question

[warm marlin]

offhand sword is really bad, like -100 ilvls bad compared to a dagger. a green ah dagger is probably better

[ornate sparrow]

ty for info ❤️

[cursive vapor]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[wispy pebble]

Is there a fix to shadow techniques combo points being refunded quite late after a finisher? Sometimes this causes me to use another spender when not needed

[warm marlin]

No, it’s a bug with coup

[wispy pebble]

i hate this company 🙂

[warm marlin]

You just have to pay close attention when you press coup and are close to 7

It can refund up to around 0.9s after casting

[wispy pebble]

with my weakauras i had a great indicator when my next finisher would refund. But midnight kill that one

[hazy breach]

Theyre changing the way the refund works

So that particular issue is not gonna happen anymore

[wispy pebble]

Well thats great news. Although the way you phrased this scares me

[west tide]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tropic merlin]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[tropic merlin]

!backstab

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[plush roost]

Parsed 90 on dimmy with 1 flag in p1, 1 flag in p2.

Its not fair ;_;

[chrome palm]

Non holders

Did you enjoy playing 2 minute sub

[plush roost]

:((((

I was so very tempted to just flag p2 and no cd burn

But i also wanted to go bedge so just kill boss

[chrome palm]

That sounds bad for damage surely

[plush roost]

Not if you target the wrong void warden and pad 8)

[chrome palm]

Holy chad

[plush roost]

Thats the parse tech surely....

[chrome palm]

The ultimate chad move is the be in the wrong section to cleave both void wardens

[plush roost]

Target wrong void warden and cleave onto 2 correct voidwardens holt

Omg

Insane gaming

[chrome palm]

Your prepach log gonna be insane

[plush roost]

Yeah we aint touchin anything but first 4 in prepatch LOL

[chrome palm]

Fractillus about to be a movie

I can’t wait

[plush roost]

Honestly i think with 40% damage nerf

You may just lane walls in 1-2 lanes

And break all

Who cares about tank wall overlaps

[chrome palm]

Ok but

Liquid weak auras doesn’t tell me where to put the wall

How could I know where our lane is??

[plush roost]

How many walls is it per cast? 4?

Just go star orange, double up

Heal me 4head

Then all breaks on star orange

Continue until star fills up

Then do orange diamond etc etc

Seems fine 2me

[chrome palm]

Instructions unclear I put it on the raid

[plush roost]

Healer problem

[chrome palm]

Trvke

[languid stone]

Why does fight lenght matters if we use it every 90sec anyway ?

[alpine wraith]

on short fights depending forge is better

[plush roost]

If a fight is 2.5 min you get to use prism once

[languid stone]

As in I should wait full stacks before using it ?

[plush roost]

Well no, you get 2 flag casts and your first one will have 0 stacks

So forge is better in that case since you can go forge flag on pull, wait to flag for 30 seconds, and forge flag again

Its length dependant

But, if a fight is like 3:30 then prism twice on 9 stacks is fine

[languid stone]

I don't have forge yet but I'll keep that in mind !

Also, should I use shadow dance in between flag/SB windows or only when about to reach 3 charges ?

[vale pine]

you kind of always follow the pattern

of 4 dances in the first 90 sec
3 dances in the second 90 secs

which means 2 during blades, 2 before blades comes up

then 2 during blades, 1 before blades comes up

this is a easy rule of thumbs to learn

however

all this knowlage is void in a week

pre patch makes cooldowns static

so you don't have to plan them out much

[crystal bone]

sub no longer unique in a week

no more dynamic cd's

[vale pine]

its diffrent

might be fun, but just to set expectation

[crystal bone]

current iteration of sub has been the most fun i've had in a long time

so i'm just sad

with the tier set ofc

[vale pine]

try the new itertaiton first

[crystal bone]

yeah i will

[vale pine]

midnight has a very diffrent design to rotations

way more approachable

we will still find some min/max stuff thats stupid

so that stays with us ^^

[crystal bone]

it is in our nature

[plush roost]

Midnight sub is fine, it just really needs an extra button thats all imo

[vale pine]

it is a good baseline

as i mentioned in the article

[plush roost]

Still think goremaws should be a short like 8 sec hasted cd ala blade dance on dh

Give us something to do

[vale pine]

idk if goremaws is the solution

but i am open for ideas

[plush roost]

Well doesnt have to be goremaw, just a button we already have but will never touch

[crystal bone]

a button to play with during downtime?

like rupture xd

[plush roost]

My idea has always been a hasted 8 sec button so we can use it once per dance and also gain from pressing it on cd put of dance

But thats cause ive been playing lots of dh this tier so im just purple brained

[vale pine]

ideally one that also spices things up in aoe

no idea how that would work, where would you find a spell that adds something to do during downtime in single targte and improves decision making in aoe/multi target

[vale pine]

whats that, an assasisantion spell?

[crystal bone]

would it need to be a DoT spell?

maybe a spell that does half its damage on button press, then an additional half the damage over X seconds

and can cleave, idk

[vale pine]

it does not need to be a dot

i was mostly joking

[crystal bone]

[upper cosmos]

I wish they'd go all in on the shadow dmg. make gloom baseline and they could have made rupture nightblade again

[latent finch]

We already saw another boss we cannt stand behind in raid right?

[upper cosmos]

and as cool as shadowcraft is, I feel like it kind of ruined tornado cause of wasted combo points. hitting 4 finishers back to back was euphoric

S2 SL, S3 Legion, S3 cata with fangs, they were all way more fun than midnight sub

[wispy pebble]

Idk im kinda happy that i dont need to track rupture in midnight

[upper cosmos]

I mean on it's own I don't mind losing rupture but in the context of everything else I kind of want it back just so I have something else to do

[wispy pebble]

Yea that makes sense. Wish we wouldve kept flag

[upper cosmos]

1min flag with the legendary and then 2min SB with the conduit was so kino

[fleet acorn]

for the last few weeks where we killed nexus king mythic my cds are far off the phases i get them way to late to do dmg, did anyone else change the p1 to only burst on pull then wait for plattform to send insta?

were going plattforms around 2:40 thats like 20 sec off my flag

[alpine wraith]

nexus king has fixed phases tho

so you send at 0 1:30 3 4:30

even if you kill platform fast the only thing that changes is he stays in his boy+dragon form for longer

dragon can die early tho but you solve that by hitting king more than dragon on the mid phases

[fleet acorn]

okay ty doe

[alpine wraith]

np if you have doubts you can check lorrgs.io

but also everything will go down the shitter with prepatch

[fleet acorn]

y im so useless in that fight

i get flag when dragon is 38%

on plattform i cant even use 1 sectech into adds

everything dies before that

[fleet acorn]

cant get out of grey log 3 runs all useless

[alpine wraith]

ah if you mean hc yea it can be cursed

[fleet acorn]

íts mythic

[alpine wraith]

that is weird then

unless people are ignoring king and focusing dragon hard

then they are inting kinda XD

flame them if you can

but i guess if you have that much dmg in platforms and dragon not much you can do

that is where we kinda pad

most you can do is say focus king instead of dragon on the split phase

[fleet acorn]

yea problem is we splitted plattforms even 9 vs 11 cause we have too much dmg and im on 11 man plattform

and as we do 2:41 we phase and use button for plattforms

3:01 is my next flag

[sullen hare]

If you have access to autumn that will help a ton

Do you raid with an hpal?

I've done over 300 pulls on that boss (😓) and just now started getting autumn for the first time in the entire expansion and man it's a game changer

[fleet acorn]

yes i asked for autumn the answer was:
no i need that for healing cooldowns

[winter ice]

Someone in the Aug discord said this same thing that their hpal is hording autumn for themselves but it literally does nothing for them

[fleet acorn]

good to know that im not alone ty

[spring torrent]

are we cppled for prepatch? I'm seeing a lot of doom & gloom comments on rogue in the beta right now. Typically though, no one ever even talks about sub, normally it's just talk of outlaw or assassin

[plush roost]

TLDR class fine, tuning will be adjusted later, wish bugs were fixed

[chrome palm]

spec will be extremely bland in prepatch without apex talents, especially if blades is still bugged like it is on beta

[hazy breach]

Even if it gets fixed on beta i wouldnt expect it to be fix in the prepatch because theyve seperated the builds

And vice versa, if they fix it on the prepatch its probably coming back once the expansion goes live

[chrome palm]

version control is really really hard

[wispy pebble]

... Bruh

[cursive vapor]

[wispy pebble]

If only there were some solutions for that as a development team

[hazy breach]

It happened several times this expac so

[chrome palm]

it would help if they moved off using magnetic tape storage for their development

[alpine wraith]

yea the version control is done by outsourcing in indonesia

[warped nacelle]

Hellou, quick question from a new rogue player. How exactly does Tricks of Trade work when i talented it to last 1 Hour?
Do i only have to apply it on Tank at the beginning of a m+key or every pull/pack ? Thank you

[slate lantern]

!tott

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[slate lantern]

oh woops

[slate lantern]

cast it while tank is in combat, you have to hit an enemy to trigger it, then itll work for 1hr

if the tank stays the same you could technically leave it for multiple keys, as the buff stays active

[slate lantern]

whoops wrong reply^

[alpine wraith]

thx man

[warped nacelle]

Thank you

[alpine wraith]

i will try and send the tank to indonesia

so he can taunt and make them actually merge the builds well

[slate lantern]

maybe we can tricks some of the attention that mage and dk get onto ourselves

[north schooner]

is that like banishing someone to the shadow realm?

[bleak night]

Indonesia is the Brazil of the east

https://tenor.com/view/crane-brazil-grab-poor-car-gif-17372636

[desert marsh]

where is midnight discussion

[bleak night]

#midnight-subtlety

[desert marsh]

ty didnt have it on the left

[wicked urchin]

Ya boy got a trial 🫡

[plush roost]

W

just randomly applied to GoF guilds?

[wicked urchin]

Yep but saw one that stood out to me and reached out to the gm

upper 100 rank

super excited

[bleak night]

op

[plush roost]

W

[teal goblet]

hey im new to rogue

was wondering if sub is target capped?

like outlaw is to 7 targets?

[latent finch]

Not hardcapped like outlaw.
Nimble flurry is. Its kinda copy pasted from blade flurry and is like outlaw hard target capped to 7 extra targets from your main target. So 8 targets.
Black Powder is softcapped at 7 if i remember correct.

So to make it short. Outlaw is hardcapped sub is not

[teal goblet]

most of your dmg is coming from nimble flurry no?

is this the same in midnight?

[latent finch]

You bp on 4+ targets so in big pulls like gambit first area. The big dmg from flurry comes mostly from coup

[latent finch]

In midnight evis shadowstrike dont nimble anymore. So its storm + bp for both hero talents. While trickster still uses coup but ds looks like you just ignore your capstone

[teal goblet]

thats a bit lame

but maybe healther for the spec

no to sure

people seem to be playing this

[latent finch]

I did not test on midnight in dungeons to much.
Maybe this https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/1422984870132580422 is the better place for asking about talents etc

[alpine wraith]

in midnight you dont play finality

[vale pine]

we do

[warm marlin]

whats going on in the class tree there

[vale pine]

he took vigor, which makes energy feel less sparse

i can see why people prefere it even tho it doesen't do much technically

[hazy breach]

10% crit on pretty much all finishers or vigor

[warm marlin]

the really cursed thing is that he has both of those

[hazy breach]

Yeah skipping supercharger is certainly a choice

[alpine wraith]

really it was like 0,x% dps last time i checked

and the other talents were always better

[hazy breach]

Its like 2%

But the others are worse

so

[alpine wraith]

ah lul

[vale pine]

^

deeper dagger might be compeititve in thiss etup

*talent setup

picking DD would also allow the use of improved FW instead of pv

[alpine wraith]

yea for me dd the clone talent wm etc were kinda better than finality

[vale pine]

but thats more of a sim question

[warm marlin]

is tfd actually good now that there are viable alternatives

[alpine wraith]

but i guyess that is a sim question yea

[warm marlin]

even in m+

[vale pine]

tfd is good, not mandatory

[alpine wraith]

tfd is decent in m+ but not for st likely

[warm marlin]

like WM is gonna do a bunch more st, tornado maybe more aoe overall

[hazy breach]

Youre probably dropping veiltouched for it

[warm marlin]

it's also nerfed from what it is on live

[hazy breach]

Not really, its still a 50% longer dance

[warm marlin]

if you have more than 0 haste it's nerfed

[hazy breach]

No

Deepening works on all of the dance now, since like a month ago

Including tfd

[warm marlin]

hmm

[hazy breach]

Sims say it was slightly worth it for trickster and slightly not worth it for deathstalker (on a standard 5 min sim)

But then again my profile is not using the new pot

And even if they cut the new pots value in half, its still insano

So tfd should be worth

[alpine wraith]

yea pots are still crazy

[warm marlin]

how long until we can get our hands on those btw, i need something to do at work

[hazy breach]

Their latest patch screwed over some stuff by "moving" the apex talents so sims are even more janky

Gotta hardcode the apex talents and then have -4 points on your tree if you want it to work right now, so i kinda cba without topgear talents

[vale pine]

there is no hurry atm

midnight is still a bit off

[fleet acorn]

We recrafting our gear to vers/haste ? For more cd reduction after prepatch?

[vale pine]

possibly yes

[echo ridge]

hi, feel free to delete that bot link in rogue-streamer, im not on my usual toon, my rogue

im currently on my warrior 😓 sry

just covering for my guild, they needed battle shout warrior 😂

[vale pine]

all fine

[fluid spire]

Im thinking bout making a sub rogue for midnight , whats the best races post rework?

[graceful rock]

Maghar, dwarf, or night elf are all solid options. They’re not super impactful outside of bleeding edge content

[fluid spire]

is there a resource i can find somewhere with like sim results per race?

[vale pine]

for pre patch or midnight?

[fluid spire]

midnight

[vale pine]

midnight is still wip

[fluid spire]

prepatch would also be interesting if the midnight one isnt availible yet

[vale pine]

the top races will still remain the same

[fluid spire]

i saw allot of increased crit dmg shit in their talents, and i was like hmmm??

[vale pine]

the alliance races are all good.
So human, dwarf, night elf are always good choice if you play alliance
it is harder for horde, tauren might be rly good, blood elf is solid

but diffrences between the "best races" are very minor

[fluid spire]

yeah im just looking for a sim result or somthing that provides some data even if its minor im interested in using it in making my descision

[vale pine]

best is to wait for bugfixes and tuning changes then

so closer to mindnight release

[fluid spire]

theres no data for the prepatch yet?

[vale pine]

you asked for midnight

not pre patch

[fluid spire]

look

[vale pine]

pre patch is like, things are close

[fluid spire]

thank you verry much

[vale pine]

but its basically what i mentioned

[warm marlin]

is maghar not up there

[broken seal]

Hey Yo ! Guys what do you think about the new sub for midnight ? maybe you tried it ? And what do you think about the rupture getting deleted ? (kinda shame cause i love having to play with a lot of spell)

[vale pine]

its a good baseline

[warm marlin]

a bit butchered but in no way an outlier compared to what other specs are losing, new clone stuff is cool, very bugged. not super attached to rupture specifically, but feel like there's a gap where at least one important spell should be. 7-8/10 if they fix the bugs

where live is like a 9.5/10

[vale pine]

8/10 is still a high rating

think the "fair" take is

[warm marlin]

i'm maybe a bit optimistic compared to most

[vale pine]

every spec in the game gets buchered, so it depends weather or not anyone enjoys the simplicity

[broken seal]

okay i wasn't expecting this. kinda good news then (i guess)

[warm marlin]

its prob closer to 7/10

[vale pine]

everyone can be a ret paladin now

or bm hunter

[fluid spire]

you guys have a found buggs documented somewhere?

[vale pine]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[fluid spire]

thanks

[vale pine]

the spreadsheet should list them

[fluid spire]

omg those buggs look rly bad XD

[vale pine]

most of them are just numbers

[charred girder]

hey guys, how's Sub rogue looking in Midnight prepatch atm? 😄 Thinking of maining rogue but not sure what spec yet

[vale pine]

hard to say

there is no comparison between specs/classes

gameplay is a lot simpler

and all classes in the game lack hero talents

i don't think there was much tuning done too

so things will be all over the place

pre patch is mostly to test if you like the rotation or not

[charred girder]

Oh okay, so come real release there will still be a lot of class changes?

[vale pine]

not rly

but tuning

und bugfixes

blizz is likely done with class changes, so close to midnight release

i am happy to be wrong on that

[clever delta]

will there be any builds for prepatch

[alpine wraith]

yea will drop them 1 or 2 days before

but it will be weird

i though finality was worse but it seems the competition is not high

although i think the change from what i had and the one that is best wont be much of a diff now if only sims were not krangled

[daring tusk]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[daring tusk]

anyone have the defensive list for tww?

[vale pine]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[vale pine]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[hazy breach]

Depends on what you mean by defensive list

[daring tusk]

tyty

[spice matrix]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[chrome palm]

@willow pawn movie

[willow pawn]

My healers cooked

Locked himself out of boss fight lmaooo

[tulip light]

is the sub rotation still about stacking modifiers or how exactly was it un-bloated?

[vale pine]

you remove all cdr (cooldown reduction)

you remove half of the buttons

you remove or rework most of the interactive talents to be passive

thats what people mean if they say un-bloated

we still stack cooldowns, but we don't have as many (its down to 3, with one being a finisher)

[tulip light]

i see thanks. will be interesting to see during pre patch

[vale pine]

if you think the current version is too complicated

and want something simpler

thats what you get

[alpine wraith]

also symbols is in a funny situation

we even though it was going to get snacked

with how it was deleted from everywhere but 1 talent

[torn tide]

yo is sub harder to learn than sin? it seems like the burst for sub is way crazier

[alpine wraith]

it is not hard but complicated

in 1 week everything will become quite simpler tho

[torn tide]

well how different from sin is it cuz ive only play sin for years lmfao

[alpine wraith]

you have several cooldowns you want to use at the same time

but not always

and sometimes one but not the other

so a bit more complicated but as you play it following a guide you see why they make sense

[torn tide]

ahh alrighty, btw is it worth practicing it for these last 4 days till midnight or do i just wait cuz theres probably a ton of changes

[torn tide]

i mean prepatch

[alpine wraith]

well depends on what you want to do

most of the changes are literally x or y got deleted

like flag or rupture

[chrome palm]

Most of learning sub is handling the CDR and getting to know when you can use dance

Which no longer exists

There isn’t that much to practice for pre patch sub so you should be able to get the hang of it somewhat quickly

[vale pine]

all specs are easy in pre patch

so if you wait a few days

can learn whatever you want in probably less than an hour

[torn tide]

wait what how, arent there things changing

[vale pine]

basically sums up the changes

[torn tide]

ty for the summary lmfao thats surprisingly simple

[wispy pebble]

Hardest part about sub is not fatfingering during opener lmao

[warped nacelle]

fast question because i somehow cant fit anymore ^^... the rule of thumb is 2 dances in sshadowblade window and 1 outside right? is that always like that? 🙂 thanky ou

[latent finch]

2 dance with blades always. Then in singletarget you rotate between using 2 dances and 1 dance between them.

[vale pine]

rule of thumbs right now is

2 during blades always

and you go in 90 sec intervals

[warped nacelle]

so if i have 1 dance up and my shadowblades is up i should just sit and wait for it to come up so i have 2?

[vale pine]

2 dances (during blades) 2 outside
2 dances (during blades) 1 outside

basically thats the pattern

[warped nacelle]

ah nice thank you

[vale pine]

but

it does not matter for long

cooldon managmenet becomes baby play in pre patch

which is just a few days out

[latent finch]

If that happens you messed up before that point and used to many

[warped nacelle]

will sub be still good for the bursts? or should i start playing other specs? 😄 because im relativly new to rogue

[uneven scarab]

sub will still burst yeah

[vale pine]

yes kinda

midnight will be bursty

for pre patch its less obviouse because we miss apex talents

[warped nacelle]

ok cool 🙂

[fringe echo]

Do y’all think subtlety will be easier in midnight? I haven’t played a rogue before and thinking about trying

[vale pine]

yes singinficantly

there will be some min/max but the baseline is very simple and focused

which means you most of the time only press 2 buttons

weather thats a good or a bad thing

[limpid sage]

ye and that 0.5 is just gcd shenanigans + dead talents

[plush roost]

Ye beta really just needs a button because its lowkey feeling like s2 assa in keys

I press storm powder!

And then my next card, i press storm powder!

[uneven scarab]

Wait wait you’re forgetting sometimes you get to DANCE first

and then storm powder!

[plush roost]

Tbh dance uptime is actually pretty absurd

Its like 40ish%

[uneven scarab]

i would prefer lower dance uptime

me want big dam

[plush roost]

I wish it was 45 sec cd and pressing blades just gave you a bonus charge

And then put more budget into out of dance damage

[uneven scarab]

Symbols is just active during dance now ya?

[plush roost]

But its fine as is ig, you can move dances around

Its just less impactful than id prefer

[uneven scarab]

as long as we have some agency over it thats not bad

[limpid sage]

I think best of both worlds would be this iteration of sub but with the haste changes and fixed cd on shadow dance

[plush roost]

Might be too powerful with flag ngl

[limpid sage]

because I get that the whole cdr thing can be unintuitive

ah ye without flag as well

and with the new danse

(lemme keep rupture)

[uneven scarab]

i liked the maintenance of rupture

def will feel weird to not think about it

[warm marlin]

dead talents are meh, the bugs are annoying and coup delay

[lusty gazelle]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[proven igloo]

Hey guys, new to playing rogue. Is sub considered the easiest spec starting Tuesday?

[hazy breach]

It is way easier than right now, but probably not

[plush roost]

Assa is maintain bleeds and finish on 5

Vry simple

Probably more than sub

Outlaw is also kind of simple now too

[bleak night]

Still build to 7 for dn and use shiv on cd

But otherwise ye

Ez

[plush roost]

Bladerush on cd, build finish on 5 for dispatch

Like all 3 rogue specs got a lot simpler in concept

With some minmaxes available

Such as shiv spam and dn on 7

[bleak night]

Midnight gaming

[woeful wren]

kinda wish they just made our funnel spec viable with current playstyle of sub

[chrome palm]

the changes to nimble and find weakness are the most positive for sub

arguably the blades change as well

[bleak night]

find weakness change is really nice

[chrome palm]

overall our damage profile is much better for m+

[warm marlin]

you didn't like strike/evis cleave?

or just because of the funnel gain

[steel zinc]

Wdym?

[plush roost]

midnight assa presses shiv on cd since its 15 energy 1-2 combo points and always DN's at 7cp even if u overcap combo points

[steel zinc]

Ohhhh I didn't know that ty

So back to tracking shiv then

Even in Prepatch?

[fallow nimbus]

What do you mean with always dn's at 7cp?

Wasn't every shiv stuff removed or switched to kingsbane?

[plush roost]

nah shiv isnt used for supercharger or anything, its just a 15 energy ability that grants cp which is better than a 60 energy ability

and assa DN's at 7cp no matter what as its numerically better than using DN at 5/6

whsipyr be doing some simmage

i think shiv on cd was something like a 2% gain iirc

[fallow nimbus]

Pressing mutilate at 6cp must be rough

When shiv is on cd

[plush roost]

Well i think also you fok at 6cp

Or shiv if its up

So its mut at 5 fok at 6 shiv on cd for assa in ST

Obv aoe rules way diff

Only for dn th

[fallow nimbus]

We storm as first gcd, assa foks off for max cp

[plush roost]

5cp normal envenom is legal

First gcd storm turned out to be neutral for sub

At least

But ye little things like this are good

Depth and minmax but the baseline of all 3 rogue specs is simple

Outlaw also has some minmaxs like having 3 stacks of fan the hammer and using sinister strike at 1cp to proc opportunity before bte for higher cp and if u dont proc, then you use a pistol shot for 7cp and then bte

Like little things

[vale pine]

not on subtlety

[fathom adder]

whats shiv-spam?

[steel zinc]

yeah just sin

[vale pine]

basically

ill explain it a bit more in detail

shiv is fairly cheap on its own with 30 energy and it gives 1 combo point

but there is a new talent node, which provides energy and cooldown reduction to it

which makes the cast very energy efficient

now, shiv isn't doing a lot of damage

but specs are designed with inefficient combo point builders

this can make it worth to use it as a filler spell instead of your normal combo point builder

which often means "on cd"

it is used quite often because of the low cooldown, thats why people say "spam"

just for reference, it is not worth to use shiv on subtlety

it is very much a assasination optimization

unsure about outlaw, but outlaw has a lot of power in their combo point builder usually

so unlikely

[fathom adder]

thanks for explaining it in detail

[cursive oar]

i love rogue. i hope it will be S in 12.0

[keen dome]

It will be if you play Subtlety

[cursive oar]

u sure ？sub is quite simpler than righ now. but its still has alot of bugs

[hazy breach]

It starts with an S is what he is saying

[keen dome]

Precisely.

[fallow nimbus]

Surprisingly Simple Sublety

Even SSS tier

[wispy pebble]

You forgot shadowdance which adds another s

[outer cloak]

Do we get apex talents now in pre patch or midnight

[hazy breach]

As you level, so midnight

[outer cloak]

Thanks

[vale pine]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[torn tide]

Backstab/rupture/dance/mark/blade/backstab/evisc/bacckstab/symbol of death

is this a good rotation for doing m+

[vale pine]

nope

you should not use backstab

in m+

[torn tide]

oh is it just for pvp then

also i just watched a video about sub rogue in midnight and its literally just a 2 button rotation wtf

[hazy breach]

If you dont count the other buttons ye

[torn tide]

i lowkey have no idea how to setup my loadout bar lol its a little different from assassin

[wispy pebble]

just wait a few more days then it gets way easier 😄

[celest lion]

Is there a list of builds to try out on beta?

Last time I played rogue Lost was the most popular show on TV.

Ah, did not see the Midnight channel.

[distant sage]

I think you can look at archon beta m+ for a build

[celest lion]

Thanks!

[tropic pier]

are there any stat changes that come with prepatch sub so i can craft gear/prep for it in advance

[lilac stag]

haste = vers >= crit >= mastery

[valid acorn]

can someone recommend the pre-patch tbc, PVP spec for rogue?

[lilac stag]

This is retail mate

[astral axle]

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/494574420854308884

[torn tide]

lol yea ofc but i was thinkin that i should atleast learn/kinda know the basics first

cuz like going from dot spec to bursting is a big difference isnt it

[rapid estuary]

how big of a DPS loss is it if I just don't bother using shuriken storms inbetween coup-de-grace set bonus uses?

kinda cringe and I'm looking to reduce mental overhead

[warm marlin]

more than 1% iirc, but also that won't be a thing when prepatch drops tuesday so I just wouldnt do it

[spice matrix]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[torn tide]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[cursive vapor]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[torn tide]

how do yall deal qith the action bar constantly changing? thats confusing me so hard

[lilac stag]

Either disable it or just duplicate spells you use both in and out of dance

[torn tide]

oh cool thanks

[vale pine]

have both the stealth bar and the regular bar the same setup

[torn tide]

ye ill be doing that as soon as i look at how to set it up, its a big mess rn

[icy shadow]

I know this is retail, but the classic rogue server seems to be a little dead. Was looking to get a log review for a guild mate that I raid with on MoP if anyone would have time to do so. Sorry for interrupting the retail convo, please delete if not allowed.

Oh, found the classic discussion tag a bit further up.

[red vortex]

#classic-discussion

[smoky tide]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[smoky ermine]

Where can I find Sub Rogue Rotation for pvp, pve single target, and pve aoe. For midnight. I can't any thing for the beta

[vale pine]

can ask in #pvp

[clever delta]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[azure thicket]

two 17s to go for 3500 crump crump crump

[jagged coyote]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[cloud perch]

are there any beta talent builds here yet

[alpine wraith]

you can check the midnight channel

[red vortex]

ort the wowhead guides

since they are updated for pre-patch

[vale pine]

max level has some more points

which is mostly just filling the apex talents ^^

[red vortex]

is that why we have mass casualty on pre patch?

cus ST we dont use BP

but that only procs on BP

i'd rather reduce my shadowstep cd i'd think. but we all up for our own builds ofc

or cloak extend

[vale pine]

oh ye, its just to reach the capstone

[alpine wraith]

you can change some things yea

[torn tide]

hey do yall use tea in m+ talent builds?

[alpine wraith]

you can macro it to dance right now

in prepatch we dont really use tea i think

[torn tide]

oh so coldblood then?

ill probably just copy the one on wowhead lol

[alpine wraith]

coldblood will die but there is another talent that replaces it

[torn tide]

ahh damn

[carmine fjord]

Hello, thinking about giving sub a try next season. Did the general playstyle of doing nothing, then getting aneurysm during cds and blowing up the world change?

[alpine wraith]

there has been a lot of simplifying

[indigo quest]

It's now less uptime dependant but the general loop is still there

Uptime no longer grants CDR but our base cooldowns have been reduced to compensate making it more rotational and less "don't miss your finishers or your windows are borked"

There's also less faff with symbols/dance/cold blood timings as symbols is now built in and cold blood is no longer an active ability

[uncut socket]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[vale pine]

you always go

there is no reason to take tea anymore once pre patch hits

[torn tide]

oh alright cool

thanks

[azure thicket]

that marcellian guy was saying tea wasn't bad and can help with energy starvation idk

grain of salt and all that tho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR5KWXsgl0s

[reef walrus]

Keep in mind that Marcellian is a general guide creator that makes guides for all classes

I've raided with him and he does try to get it correct, but if his guide says something different than what Fuu's wowhead guide says, I'd trust Fuu over Marcellian

[azure thicket]

ye same

[torn tide]

how do yall keep ur energy up without tea?

[uncut socket]

just dont press buttons

[torn tide]

genius

[hazy breach]

During cds you have all the energy you need anyway

And outside of cds your spells arent doing much, so it doesnt matter much

[torn tide]

im finding myself like running out of energy and not being able to do shit sometimes in pulls or bosses thi

tho

after switching from tea to cold blood

i might be doing something wrong

[hazy breach]

If its not during your cds

Its completely fine

Like youll be doing 200k dps instead of 400k dps outside of shadow dance

Oh no

[torn tide]

ye maybe im doing something wrong

like after i dance then sectec

and like sb, i can only evisc/coup like twice before running out of energy

[hazy breach]

Assuming its on live, sounds like you are not pressing symbols

[torn tide]

oh wait isnt that getting removed next expac

how do yall get energy in midnight then since symbols is gone

[vale pine]

we can take mos

also shadowcraft as well as warning sign

⚠️

increase sht proc rate even further than on live, so we gain a noticable amount of ressources more

which means, energy is good

and outside of dnace, we don't rly care about energy much

[warm marlin]

as fuu suggested, a big part of symbols' energy gain (shadowcraft) was baked into dance, so dance alone gives you as much energy or more than you used to get with symbols/dance

[torn tide]

oh thats sick

[torn tide]

btw thanks for this, i completely missed that out

still kinda new to sub

[torn tide]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[shrewd lantern]

prob spamming too much when cds arent up

aka when your dps is irrelevant

[torn tide]

seems like the symbols of death was just not being used

cuz i was only kinda spamming when in dance

[shrewd lantern]

You use symbols before sectechs

to supercharge

thats kind of the whole point

[shrewd lantern]

No idea what this means, randomly hitting them during dances?

[torn tide]

like not spamming but i mean hitting evis/coup

basically i just wasnt using symbols

[shrewd lantern]

Well sitting on symbols means you also miss out on supercharger

tea is a poop talent

[uneven scarab]

No symbols also means alot less energy in dance lol

u aint doing nothin

[cunning anvil]

was double checking wowhead on trinkets and they're suggesting dimmy trinket as the top priority trinket.

Are we doing that now besides forge/lily or forge/prism?

[vale pine]

it sims the highest, i probably should change antenna to netherprism as it is by far the best for m+

[vale pine]

but it looks like this from simulations:

• direct damage trinkets are good
• Ticking sack is good because we run a lot of haste/vers

on pure single target, you are better off running more haste

with more targets, mastery becomes better

ofc its pre patch, so we will also need to wait for the official release

to get final data with potential last minute fixes

[uneven scarab]

Holy shit sack

ive had one this entire season

not once equipped

[vale pine]

it is probably a side effect of haste too

stat squishes typically benefit damage trinkets on top of that

which is kind of what we see, and why i assume forgotten sky sims so good.

[reef walrus]

hu, ticking sack actually being useful, I knew my hoarding habbit would come in useful

[rustic mortar]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rustic mortar]

is there already a sheet for wednesday ?

like whats the best performing rogue spec etc

[fallow nimbus]

And i didn't picked it in this weeks vault

[sullen hare]

I might have a hero sack laying around but I probably vendored it months ago

[pearl swan]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[floral geyser]

weak auras is back for Midnight?

[serene notch]

going for a PB before seasons over

pouring one out for prob one of the best iteration of sub

[velvet hawk]

It’s awesome. Does that include the recent changes?

[plush roost]

well fellas, we missed 22 street and 21 priory. but we did achieve US rank 1 W

[serene notch]

less go

how do you feel this season was for pushing @plush roost

[plush roost]

I think that sub rogue would have taken fdk's spot if fdk wasnt as strong as it was tbh, it was like playing walmart DK in keys. The potential for sub this season could ahve ended at like 4060ish io i imagine, 22 eco hoa gambit street all attainable as well as 21 resil. Problem with rogue is nobody actually wants to play with a rogue because it is a worse FDK that doesnt even provide something like AMZ even if it does more overall damage in a key. It also required your team to play around your CDS more strictly compared to fdk which just send on cd no matter what.

Its a bit of a shame blizzard abandoned the patch because i think sub rogue was a candidate for a 3-5% buff and that would have made a world of difference in raid and keys.

Also highest tier keys require differnet compositions to time

u cant do floodgate 21 with hunter dk rogue rsham

but dh rsham dk rogue is good

u cant time 22 HoA without hunter DH rogue

[serene notch]

do you feel like this is the best version of sub for the last 3 seasons?

[plush roost]

Yea without a doubt, double coup is great. s2 sub had too much rng from tier set or it would be goated as well

[chrome palm]

i think dk has many advantages over rogue. ams is generally better than cloak in keys, amz is generally better than atrophic in keys, they live better to rot damage without being weak to hard hits, grip is good for routing, pulling, and as a stop. shroud, distract, and sap just werent particularly useful this season. hunter has a better heal cut, etc.

kidney is better than i thought it was if you use it as a first kick in uncoordinated groups

youre also competing against damage buffs which means that even if you do the most overall its still a loss for the group in many cases

charrend do you think the first dance had much impact on subs strength because i felt so much stronger in keys with downtime like db and priory compared to gambit or ara

[short radish]

when was the last time shroud was useful. feels ages since it was

[chrome palm]

You use it the skip the foot men before priory’s first pull. Some groups will use it to go straight to big momma before demos if they are trying to put lust on cd. That’s it

Neither of these things require shroud to be clear

[placid elk]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

yeah it was a nice to have kinda thing

[sour horizon]

Used shroud in s2 for ToP first pull

[teal goblet]

i just learned the current one ffs

[vale pine]

haha^^

[red vortex]

surely with simplified rotations, people will not die as much to mechanics anymore

[vale pine]

Pin for Pre Patch and Midnight.

• Hero Talents:
  • Single Target: Deathstalker
  • Mythic+: Free Choice
• __ Trinkets:__
  • Single Target: Forgotten Sky and Poison Sack.
  • Mythic+ Forgotten Sky and Netherprism.
• Talents:
  • Single Target: Deathstalker | Trickster
  • Mythic+: Deathstalker | Trickster
• Simulations:
• !sheet
• Stats:
  • Single Target: Vers = Haste > Crit > Mastery(Haste ~30-35%)
  • Mythic+: Mastery> = Vers = Crit > Haste(Haste ~12-20%)
  • Note: No apex talents make haste more valuable.
• Rotation:
  • [Writeup of the Rotation](#subtlety-faq message) - by eleem
• Guides:
  • Links can be found - #subtlety-faq or !guide.
• Note:
  • Simulation are not officially supported, but results should be good for rogue.

Just a little drop of extra information, that might not be obviouse

Hero talent Budget in Pre Patch is limited

This means we can only spend 10 points in the hero talents, this limits Trickster more than Deathstalker

[maiden oar]

uh oh i do not own those trinkets

[keen dome]

oh no, different trinkets

[placid elk]

wtf is a poison sack

[vale pine]

this means, Deathstalker only needs to skip one damage node in pre patch, which creates the following two hero talent layouts

[placid elk]

so my mythic araz+ prism is cooked?

[vale pine]

While trickster can't do that, you always trade off two damage nodes, and typically just uses one single layout for everything

[vale pine]

you mean forge

might be still good

[placid elk]

well i only got antena forge and prism

[vale pine]

you can absoutely play forge + prism

you gain the same benefits as before

but prism + passive sim higher

[placid elk]

seems like on-dmg trinkets are good? i wonder why

[vale pine]

multiple reasons

but mostly, because of the stat squish

[keen dome]

Can I still use Antenna. it puts a cute little moth on my head.

[vale pine]

ye

antenna is fine

[keen dome]

Haha, hell yeah

[vale pine]

its just not as strong

[keen dome]

Ye, makes sense with squish and changing priorities

I've only got prism and Antenna (and lily) so just gonna yolo it

[vale pine]

think the majority will do that

just get a bit more haste

and its fine

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

i need to sync some apl changes i had locally

eleem pushed his apl to raidbots

so mimiron atm works without custom apl

just need to double check some lines

but let me quick

do something else first

[fleet acorn]

Reforge all gear to haste mastery prob best

[vale pine]

Trinket simulations:

• Single Target: - Link to simulation
• Dungeon Slice: - Link to simulation