subtlety

[maiden oar]

i never wouldve figured that out myself

[warm marlin]

ye nexus king amp + dimmy + taza hm make it very noticable

[maiden oar]

i honeslty wouldve just assumed i got parried or made some sort of gameplay error until midnight came out

well tbh idk if thats what getting parried is even like im so clueless

[warm marlin]

certain macros in the tc channel specifically cast dance first to prevent this bug abuse the bug to outplay the bug

[maiden oar]

i should read that place

i started to dance 2nd on purpose to squeeze out more dance time by pressing dance right before my global

going to be annoying to selectively unlearn that

[warm marlin]

i preferred the muscle memory of just pressing a macro rather than do that

also for the gcd reason

[maiden oar]

thats fair i dont have alot of keybind space left

i will look into the macros maybe i can fit some

ive got like 4.5 full bars but maybe some of it is nonsense i can remove

[brisk onyx]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[fleet acorn]

the only time i ever FoK is when i have no dance up and try rupturing multiple mobs or black powdering multiple mobs, but whenever i have dance up i only use strike as builder and backstab

[vale pine]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[oak grotto]

!dinars

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[oak grotto]

My simc says that Araz ritual Forge is a dps loss over pacemaker both being myth, but why does a lot of people run Araz but not Pacemaker?

Im combination with Prism, I should add

[lilac stag]

dmg amps and fight timings matter.

[crystal bone]

what are you looking at exactly? while sims help determine upgrades most of the time, ultimately the game is not a sim, so other things like double on-use might gain value with adds or damage amp moments at correct timings

ie myth nexus king

[oak grotto]

I simmed for m+

[crystal bone]

gotcha, i've seen people argue both sides when it comes to a passive or araz + prism in m+

i'd say play whichever you prefer there

[fossil forge]

Antenna prism is the highest sim

forge prism for damage amps/if you like having a on use every cd

[hazy breach]

Well for damage amps prism+passive is way better than a on-use that does nothing

[fossil forge]

bbb-but eleem the whole point of running two on use trinkets is so you send th,, forbidden 18 stack

[graceful rock]

How am I supposed to go a whole day at work after a 0.3% dimmy wipe

[alpine wraith]

should have crit more

[graceful rock]

An actual boomie crit would’ve done it

[bleak wind]

@hazy breach did you figure out what was causing the coup bug to do more damage?

[hazy breach]

nah i think he just had insane crits, couldnt find anything really

[bleak wind]

Im just seeing it on first boss as well (or at least I think its the same)

like people having 8mil more average cast

[warm marlin]

if you're referring to some of the CN/KR logs, I believe some of them just don't cast coup outside of dance

also 2p procs in blades

the top plexus log atm for example has 0 coups cast outside dance, you have 7/22 cast outside dance

[bleak wind]

ye but even yours

in the same day you had 2 mil more average cast on first boss

than loomithar

that has a damage amp

[warm marlin]

i did also have all my coups that day in dance on plexus while 4 were outside dance on loomy

63% crit rate on the big coup hit on plexus, 48% on loomy

[bleak wind]

you can compare the ones only in dance

still way more damage on first boss

should not be the case really

maybe I am just being bad, but its a little weird

[graceful osprey]

So they are using BP?

[warm marlin]

idk they're just rupturing or not casting. apparently i also did it recently and I didn't intentionally hold coup or anything

[warm marlin]

i looked at some other classes and physical damage in particular seems a bit higher on plexus than other bosses, could be some armor shenanigans i.e. coagulation guy in city of threads. dont have time to full deep dive it

[bleak wind]

hm, could be lower armor values I guess

[graceful rock]

Expose armor when

[warm marlin]

maybe loses his armor during the shield just a guess

[bleak wind]

how is lily vs antenna btw for the cursed timer fights?

[warm marlin]

10% miss rate for orbies

[bleak wind]

is that 3 min?

[warm marlin]

3:30 (with 0 variance)

i dont think you play prism even on 3min

forge/pacemaker perhaps

[bleak wind]

I don't like pacemaker at all

[warm marlin]

you can certainly game antenna but with the 2min forge timing pacemaker lines up naturally

[warm marlin]

pretty sure if i drop a bit of mastery lily gets better as well, too deep in mastery for it rn

[bleak wind]

but you need to pop at 2 min for the araz/pacemaker though

[warm marlin]

ye for 3min exact or shorter kill times u just drop prism and play that timing

[bleak wind]

oh ye if you miss anyway, but I meant more for like the 3-3:30 kill times where you can't pop at 2 min

[warm marlin]

imo those are def prism lily

sub 3min, forge/pace. 3:10-3:40 approx, lily/prism. 3:40+, forge/prism and hold 2nd flag for 2nd forge.

[bleak wind]

ye thats what I was thinking as well, just wondering if lily/prism is better than antenna/prism for the 3:10-3:40

don't really like antenna either

[warm marlin]

the sim above is margin of error for me rn. i think you can game antenna and certainly gamba it being much better, but if you ever get griefed by mechanics or whatever i think lily is better. especially better if i can get a second gearset that drops some mastery to work around it better

chasing orbs on fractillus during breaks was not fun

[bleak wind]

ye I can imagine

[woeful wren]

this opener holyyyy

[warm marlin]

side note if you only get one pot, potting the prism burn is better with lily or antenna as your second trinket, potting lust pull/tfd is better with forge

again very small diff

[fleet acorn]

Im only Running ara + prism trinket in raid anymore its way better with blades to have big burn Phases then to Focus on grabbing Orbs for crit got 95 + Logs from 80ish just with that Change

[hazy breach]

Ye and with pre-disorienting its slightly smaller

But yeah still worth

[warm marlin]

oh ya all my sims were run with predisorient

[hazy breach]

Ye i figured

[humble rover]

are you supposed to get 2 ST in the first dance window?

[shadow lance]

You can

But if you're afraid to put ST outside of dance, just wait for the second

[humble rover]

is there any point in tracking flawless form?

[warm marlin]

if you're in aoe (but not more than 3 targets) and you somehow drop flawless form entirely you would want to BP instead of eviscerate

otherwise no

[humble rover]

very specific

thanks

[warm marlin]

dont think you drop FF much at all with tier set so theres basically no point

[hazy breach]

Last i checked removing that FF check in simc was like a 0.3% loss or something

So ye you generally dont drop it

[vast tusk]

hi guys, would it be better to spend 3 puzzling cartel chips on a Heroic Uniyielding Netherprism or a mythic Trinket from dungeons?

[vale pine]

if you don't have netherprism

its the best option to spend it on

in general raid options are better than mythic+ ones

[vast tusk]

is it possible for to get raid gear from the weekly vault if you do dungeons?

[hazy breach]

No

The dungeon row only gives dungeon gear, the raid row only gives raid gear

[vale pine]

if you think of tier set pieces as raid loot, yes, but nothing outside of the 5 tier set pieces

but also, you can turn these slots into tier set on the catalyst

so

[cold frost]

Whats the name of the thing that makes your finishers restore all combopoints? Cant remember want to make a WA when it procs

[hazy breach]

Shadowcraft

!wa has a reminder with a sound

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[cold frost]

❤️

[daring jasper]

Quick q: I have prism and attenna already at 730, should I use dinars to grab forge or wait till I can get boots? (missed my guild's kill while on vacay). Sims say that forge is a slight decrease in dps

[lunar bluff]

shurkinen torndo cost 60 mor engry

[lilac stag]

You def want boots if you’re still killing the boss (say next week). Otherwise yolo

[hearty orbit]

can someone say if these stats are good?

i think crit is a bit low

this is still potted from flask of mastery

i almost get out dpsd by a 707 bm hunter

so i figure im doing things wrong

[ornate heron]

youre missing 13 item levels

thats whats wrong

[swift tinsel]

mastery kinda high

[hearty orbit]

you're right but the hunter was 707, shouldn't there be a bigger gap ?

[swift tinsel]

can probs funnel some of that into crit but that's a robot question

[hearty orbit]

i was at 7.5 he was at 7.3

m dps

okay i see

[ornate heron]

depends on where the ilvl is allocated

[hearty orbit]

so i should sim more crit and see what mr robot says

[ornate heron]

if his rings are low and he has bis weapon + trinkets

probably doesnt matter

[swift tinsel]

yeah its less important ilvl vs ilvl bc slots matter

[ornate heron]

also youre comparing the best dps in raid to the worst single target in raid

[hearty orbit]

o lmao

[ornate heron]

sub only good to burst adds and damage phases

otherwise pretty bad

[alpine wraith]

we killed dimensius but my cds were krangled

didnt have flag for amp

[lilac stag]

someone just tell them to top gear sim with gems and enchants for the love of stat weights

[knotty depot]

Mmmh I could use some help here, got my first Noodle king kill

and on this pull my dmg was horrendous

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Z7bP96RAmJcQjatM?type=damage-done&fight=14&source=11

[shrewd lantern]

asking if your stats are good while low ilvl is just funny

[knotty depot]

like I just don't understand

What the hell went wrong on the pull things technically went right for the team

[shrewd lantern]

Your intermission platform damage is low

[vagrant sinew]

the person logging was also other platform so youre losing some dmg on the log that way aswell

[knotty depot]

Aaaaah

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LW1Xv3rKAzd798xp?fight=last&type=damage-done

still horrible tbh

[shrewd lantern]

this is why you need multiple loggers

[knotty depot]

Yeah some pulls I top dmg on platform

some pulls like the kill it just went to shit

[distant canopy]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[knotty depot]

And I don't understand if I was randomly doing dumb shit or if it was some RNG

[shrewd lantern]

i mean did you prep sht and shit for platform

your parse entirely depends on your platform+dragon burn dps

tbh

[knotty depot]

I think I just didn't cdg ready

[shrewd lantern]

you need autumn to cd instantly

[knotty depot]

Ah.

Yeah not getting that

[shut ridge]

no one on our side logged this week and i still haven't emotionally recovered

[swift tinsel]

you could always...log

[shut ridge]

yeah i just forgot because i'm stupid and lazy and also stupid

[shrewd lantern]

i dont have autumn

[shut ridge]

we have a few people that do every single week but they're out because of poe or whatever

[shrewd lantern]

because our hpal is the only healer that can play dps

🔫

[shut ridge]

yeah no autumn for me on that one either

[shrewd lantern]

no warrior on dimmy

bout to kurt cobain ong

(dont take this srs)

[shut ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/its-over-its-genuinely-over-seal-sad-seal-breaking-news-gif-243396507301445550

[vast tusk]

in an AoE situation what's the maximum number of targets that you would apply ruptures to before it gets inefficient?

[tepid trellis]

there isnt really a target count

its just a "how long does the target live" thing

and you just do it between dances

[maiden oar]

dont really need to

even with autumn u spend alot of the sht storm rupturing before flag

coups good to prep though

definitely want coup

[shrewd lantern]

true but if you dont got autumn you sending late

which can stink

[maiden oar]

yeah

every time i tried to prep sht for platform it didnt really help much but coup is mandatory

[shrewd lantern]

cant really prep much tbh

i was able to send a symbols secret when the dragon+king duo before platform but felt like you needed to hold dance

[maiden oar]

i just do 1 dance after i dot both

then dot both again and pool coup

[shrewd lantern]

felt like if i did that i was gonna be dry

for platform

[maiden oar]

nah its fine

unless ur dancing after the 2nd flag in p1

then who knows

[shrewd lantern]

yeah must have fucked up the one time

because i didnt have a 3rd dance usage on platform

if i sent a dance when he mounted dragon after last ghosts

[maiden oar]

ah odd

[shrewd lantern]

personally i found need to cloak the first mortars

to maintain optimal platform daam

yk whats the absolute worst though

[maiden oar]

yeah i had to do that for awhile bc baits werenr done well

[shrewd lantern]

the afk period in dimmy p1 where you're waiting for 2nd use of flag sb

for like 25s

[maiden oar]

helps if ppl stack baits max melee 1 side of titan then cross

[shrewd lantern]

and then someone on the other side doesnt take their mass

and you all get yoinked

[maiden oar]

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk our first mortars drop

right on the titan

[maiden oar]

unfortunate

can also greed and step to tank if ur crazy

[shrewd lantern]

its pretty stupid since its almost overlapping

with kick and massacre

[maiden oar]

yeah

what can u do when u live in a shoe

[shrewd lantern]

idk lowkey kicking myself for not taking socket bracers from vault

didnt expect ring neck lens to be my highest sim

[maiden oar]

yeah lens goes crazy

or maybe not crazy but i odont have to highroll a m+ ring or buy entropy or win salhadars folly

bracer was my last item too

[shrewd lantern]

thing is i tried to sim the m+ necks at 730 with lens on bracers and 730 bracers won

[maiden oar]

catalyst bracer?

[shrewd lantern]

yeah

[maiden oar]

that thing sims so well

dunno why

[shrewd lantern]

lower crit setup

im one of the few where my sim refuses logic alpha

no matter how hard i try

[maiden oar]

odd

my droptimizer didnt like it but top gear did

if i item edited it

and i got it from vault and took it and now droptimizer likes it

[shrewd lantern]

yeah kinda cringing because i had myth socket bracers in vault

but at least i got a socket if i ever play duskthread bracers

[maiden oar]

yeah i need 2 sockets

i have cata on sub and writhing for sin

im not playing lens on sin

[shrewd lantern]

its peak first world problem when you had to be "able" to take a socket

[maiden oar]

we love it

[shrewd lantern]

my sin setup is done

got streets neck

maybe i could use another heavy crit ring for slightly more sim

[mental wyvern]

New update.

    Hero Talents
        Fatebound
            New Talent: Sometimes Lucky – Critical strike chance increased by 3%.
            New Talent: Controlled Chaos – After flipping a Fatebound Coin that ends a streak of 4 or more, flip another that matches the same face.
            New Talent: Ravenholdt Mint – Flipping Heads increases damage by an additional 4%. Damage dealt by flipping Tails is increased by 15%.
        Trickster
            New Talent: Hoodwink – Fazed increases damage taken by an additional 3%.
            New Talent: Flashing Steel – Unseen Blade may now occur once every 15 seconds and has 25% chance to strike twice.
            New Talent: Clever Combatant – Pistol Shot/Shuriken Storm has 20% increased critical strike chance and now triggers Unseen Blade when available.```

[maiden oar]

yeah i think if i change anything on sin its boe ring and i refuse

im good!

[shrewd lantern]

i'd have to check what other high crit rings exist this season

i guess the db one?

[void ocean]

anyone else has that shadowcraft refund WA going crazy on Nexus King platforms

[maiden oar]

yeah

im sure droptimizer is honest

[cursive tundra]

heyo, quick question, currently running netherprism + antenna (both hc track), and since this is a 3rd alt, i have no chance (or intention really) to run mythic raids, so I'm left with picking dungeon gear from dinars. from what I can tell, picking a dagger over my 727 crafted one is little to no upgrade, however I could take Lily from Ecodome and get that to 730.

now the main question, how do you run two actives on sub in m+? do you use Lily for most SB casts and then when you get to 16-18 stacks on prism you pop that with the next SB?

[shrewd lantern]

better off just playing 730 pace with prism

double on use isnt really all that

[cursive tundra]

hmmm, okay

I'll sim that too, thanks for the advice

yeah, pacemaker beats other options with a netherprism

besides a 730 antenna, but yeah that's not happening on this char

thanks for saving me from a mistake

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah double on use isnt all that if you dont have forge and prism together on mythic

[edgy zenith]

very large QoL:

too bad the spec didn't get the Demo lock revert treatment

maybe next week 🙂

[fathom phoenix]

question on sub on nexus king; how are some people getting their 2nd flag at 1:22 vs 1:30? are they getting autumn?

[lunar hazel]

Exactly

Are there any tips for parsing high on Soul Hunters? I'm having trouble breaking 10m dps. I'm looking for advice on stat set for soul hunters, targeting, cooldown usage, and coup usage specifically for improving my log.

[tepid trellis]

keep rupture up on all 3, dance when all 3 are stacked

[radiant swift]

stealthi is sub saved?

[lunar hazel]

During Velaryn's charge, should I not use my dance on 2-target?

[tepid trellis]

not really no, you wanna time it for when you can do the max dmg

as long as you arent capping charges you arent loosing dmg

[lunar hazel]

Got it. thanks

[glossy garden]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[azure thicket]

hey dumb question when do we use ritual forge and when do we use antenna?

ritual is single target option?

i got a myth netherprism so i have a choice to spend the extra dinar on a mainhand or ritual forge idk cause we're progging soul hunters

[bleak night]

mainhand for transmog

[azure thicket]

oh right attack power

we're not doing a reclear til soul hunters is kill so rpg moment

[bleak night]

i realized tonight ive spent two raid tiers pressing dance too early in my gcd

so i was missing a global

[short radish]

[maiden oar]

yeah i came to this realization more recently than id like to admit

[vale pine]

tier set dropped too

both are kinda boring

[short radish]

as is tradition

[wispy crystal]

I have the exact same question as you, as guild is progress on SH too.

Was sending my cooldowns on 2 targets sometimes and now I realize that isn't optimal

[fleet acorn]

mostly tank fault for not insta moving them together again and u need to hold

[glad silo]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[fluid fiber]

can someone who plays high rio m+ pls gimme an honest advice. I have Mythic Netherprism and Forge on HC. I also have Lily on 730 Mythic and dungeon slice says its better than Ritual Forge on HC. But as m+ is dynamic and not 100% a dungeon slice sim, would u still use lily for forge or keep forge even tho its hc and less in sims?

[plush roost]

Is myth pacemaker or antenna on your list of available items. 2onuse isnt required in keys.

Id personally play lily over forge in this situation as the flat agi lily gives enhances your prism windows as opposed to ritual forges crit

The downside being ofc you are hard locking yourself to every 3rd cd set being 18 prism no matter the pull

[fluid fiber]

thx bro. Ye sadly I dont have antenna or pacemaker....otherwise would use it, but still i always wanted to know if u play antenna how do u play ur first burst window in dungeons then since u literally have a 0 or 1 stack prism?

just raw burst without trinket then? 😄

[plush roost]

You just play them without trinket its nbd

I still hit 40m on floodgate

[fluid fiber]

is that a evis or powder situation? 😄

ok thx bud

❤️

[plush roost]

Its 5% aoe or prio either way i dont over think it usually. (Just play with bm fdk and the prio is taken care of)

[fluid fiber]

ye i mostly do that since thats the comp but i got insulted a lot of times why i use black powder even tho I clarified that... A lot of times ppl just search for a reason to flame u idk

[azure thicket]

you can evis in aoe packs and it'll work fine

but you should black powder

buuuuut if you wanted to do the pepsi test evis in a big pack and see if you're just doing gonga damage rotation is the same etc

..i got a buddy to tease an outlaw rogue for not running wound poison on the mini boss before last boss in a halls 15

deserved tbh

[fluid fiber]

Also I guess with not 2 on use trinkets as u said first burst is raw without trinkets and then u go with around 8 or 9 or whatever stacks in the 2nd. and do u sometimes do raw bursts again to save for 18 stacks then depending on dungeons and upcoming pulls?

[plush roost]

Ye db is a good example of this cause u can 9 stack lust pull and 9 stack one boat, no stack another and then 18 stack boss

Or no stack lust and 18 stack a boat

Key level dependent and adjusts on your comp i very much like the flexibility

But obv if youre asking about lily n stuff you probably dont have to think too hard about that atm

[fluid fiber]

ye thx a lot tho. I guess i need to get antenna soon then but season is over anyway. Since I don't have a team and just need 19 priory now to be full 19 resi I wont get invited to any +20 anyway. So ye. One more Key and then i am forced to stop playing m+ anyway 😄

[azure thicket]

do we use ritual forge off cd p much?

[lilac stag]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[rigid sparrow]

Is there debate for rotten- finality build on m+ for keys like 18-19s?

[hazy breach]

Basically doesnt matter

Play whatever you want

Doesnt change gameplay in any way either way

[haughty mural]

I am becoming a lily enjoyer - talk me out of it

[lilac stag]

Play Hunter.

I’m pretty sure I said Lily was a good option months ago.

Watched our evoker unalive herself with forge on a NK pull last night.

[haughty mural]

It „feels“ better to stack prism with lily

[haughty mural]

Fair point

[lilac stag]

I ended up buying antenna on the warrior this week. Had nothing else to use chips on until we actually kill dimy.

Kinda funny how it sims lower than what I was using, but consistently performs higher, even with the misses of orbs.

[haughty mural]

Also did that on my hunter and agreed

[wispy crystal]

For M+ is it advisable to use double on use? Or go with netherprism + antenna for example.

VS

Netherprism + Araz trinket

[lilac stag]

Personal pref. Now that you can basically pick any trinket, a good passive + prism better imo

[alpine wraith]

ya prism + araz is for very select places where you know each cd counts

[distant sage]

are you guys rupturing while your flag is ramping or sending blades instatly m+ question

[alpine wraith]

depends on what pull it is

usually you have ruptures up from before

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

did you not just buy antenna?

[haughty mural]

Waiting for reclear

And just got too comfy with lily next to prism

[wispy crystal]

Gotcha yeah I think on use and a good passive like antenna will work great for M+

For soul Hunters, do you guys use on use + antenna?

Or double on use for Mythic SH?

[lilac stag]

Raid is often 2x on use. SH depends greatly on your kill time

[warm marlin]

passive trinket actually pretty goated on soul hunters

its only when your kill times start getting short enough that you have to cast flag strictly on cd that it gets a bit cringe

[lilac stag]

That last flag with what was 18 stack of prism was rough, but that was a month ago so idk where that last flag is now

I was on warrior for our kill after 3 nights of sub prog and we deleted it.

[spring belfry]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[tidal salmon]

being offmeta is hard i lowkey feel bro

[acoustic lodge]

The name is great

[frail cloud]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[frail cloud]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[tribal blade]

people on remix are so bad

this was a 48 BRH and all these people are just under 800% vers

and i have 590%

insane

[bleak night]

man i have like 180%

[tribal blade]

haha i've just been logging in and doing mythic raid every day

[bleak night]

yeah ive been lazy

[tribal blade]

sometimes a few keys if i feel like it

[bleak night]

i need to get working on it so i can do a 49

for the fos

or i guess get 999%, either way

[tribal blade]

you'll need people with a lot of vers to do a 49

[bleak night]

yeah a few of my guildies have been going hard

so there'll be a group eventually

[tribal blade]

nice nice

[tribal blade]

here is 51 NL and i beat the boomy and dk who both have almost 900% vers

so they ahve +300% vers on me

ain't no way

[bleak night]

[chrome palm]

i hate this breast milk company

[tepid trellis]

skill issue press pot bozo

[wispy crystal]

hey bros, for Mythic Soul Hunter, if blades+flag is up.

and the bosses are split up, do we still pop blades+flag or wait till they are grouped up?

[short radish]

check lorrgs

but probably wait till group

[north schooner]

(unless delaying costs you 1 cd set in the fight)

[tribal blade]

i hate leaps as a mechanic so much

[chrome palm]

should be an affect on the ground

that you can see

[limpid sage]

If you delay you tend to miss out on the last blades before 3rd intermission

unless autumn gaming

[wispy crystal]

no autmn

so if 2 target just send blades?

[limpid sage]

ye I’d just send then

[wispy crystal]

alright will try that

[limpid sage]

you’ll most likely get cb sectec on 3 targets as well

[wispy crystal]

yeah hopefully

[maiden oar]

have some wiggle room if u want to do last blades @ 5mins with pot

but its killtime dependent

[fast flax]

Is it always recommended to save prism for a big momma pull on fd? Above 18/19?

[short radish]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[alpine wraith]

all prism casts should be mapped kinda at that lvl

so you can speak with the tank about the route

it does coincide if you dont pop at 1:30 usually but someone that actually did it at high lvl can tell better

[plush roost]

Its highly dependant on comp, play with 3 prism users and all 3 of you send 18 stack on lust youre killing adds on 20 seconds and having no cds for after intermissions and youll hit shield for 20 seconds. So in that case you enter fight with 9 stacks, dont use prism on lust (omg my overall!!!!!) And then 18 stack the second set of adds so you can actually time the key

Upside of you as the rogue doing this as well gives you 18 stack on double demo pull or bloodwarper should you not send 9 on the third add set.

But as hach said, mapping your prism is very important as sub

[hazy breach]

Also since sub generally dont care much about BL you dont really need to factor that in specifically

However usually the bl pull is big and therefore good to use a lot of stacks on anyway

[plush roost]

Ye if u can consistently kill drones then sending on lust is also good to lower tank dam, but killing drones in a feasible time is actually pretty difficult this season

[worn pagoda]

How do you use unyielding netherprism ? should i just bind it to dance or something ?

[north schooner]

read 10 messages above

[worn pagoda]

Oh mb, ty

[vale pine]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[fringe void]

Guys looking to buy my 2nd trinket, already have nitherprism. So 2nd antenna or forge?

Mostly puginf

I’ve seen ppl now using antenna.

[sullen hare]

but antenna and forge are both good complements to netherprism

[plush roost]

I think forge is best for pugging and unplanned prism usage. Most consistent pack to pack damage and benefits from the slight downtime that usually occurs from pug tanks

Antenna is better for boss dps tho

[upbeat garden]

Any advice if I should use araz or atenna in m+ ? cold blood vs tea ?

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

[upbeat garden]

The thing is I have keys where I have all my cds ready and tank pulls 4 mobs

[azure thicket]

dumb question is it worth macroing a stop attack to vanish so i can always use shadowstrike with it

vanish sometimes and something breaks it and cause no subterfuge etc its jank city

i like araz trink in keys in 15-16 range, but also have a tank friend with good routes so we're always knocking down big packs

antenna is nice but if tank yeets before you're ready 40k agi is nothing to balk at

[bronze hatch]

Vanish already stops your attack though?

Also if you’re talking about using it for Premed it’ll still be up if you break stealth until you use a builder, so you can do two evis’s and still be premed buffed

#1 sub uses antenna/netherprism

[warm marlin]

if you vanish offgcd before your gcd is ready then press a melee ability (i.e. strike), you'll trigger melee autoing and break your vanish

either wait for gcd to be over and vanish strike or vanish and hold your press until gcd ready

[marsh jackal]

new here, does subtelty use slice & dice, or does another ability use it as assasination where they use envenom?

[little scaffold]

Eviscerate applies it

You never press SnD

[alpine wraith]

you do press snd but not very often

like at the end of pulls on things like when saving cp from intermission that is long to another

[upbeat garden]

What spec to play on soulhunters prog?

[ripe flame]

Honestly think all 3 specs are viable on soul hunters

[lilac stag]

If you can outlaw imo is best so you can give no shits about fight timings.

[upbeat garden]

Cant,never touched outlaw ,Id rather play fury than outlaw

[lilac stag]

fury is chill on the fight

Love it

Otherwise just play sub

[azure thicket]

kinda sounds like vanish cleartarget/stop attack might proof a button mash but idk gonna try it

idk tho might just be spell queue getting the better of me cause i swear i back off and it'll still break

had a fury warrior do 0 interrupts on 2nd mini boss in a 16 halls literally pinged the dude and kicked em

prot war main thinks the dude never talented stormbolt from details lmao

[warm marlin]

melee abilities also auto target a mob in front of you on press

so cleartarget dont work either

the vanish backstab still gets me sometimes, just gotta be patient

[azure thicket]

ye just practice then

also working on getting backstab's positional damage buff more this week

[alpine wraith]

you also can get hit by any aoe

and the stealth from vanish also breaks

[short radish]

That part isn't important

The find weakness bit might be though

[echo lynx]

Can some insane sub player look over 1 log for me? 😄

[sturdy mortar]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[raw dove]

what are macros I should have for mythics?

[tulip folio]

quick question new to sub spec

is this damage brakedown normal for sub m+ ?

i think im pressing black powder too much

[shrewd lantern]

depends how big the tank was pulling

[plush roost]

This is my (previously) r1 ecodome 20 breakdown

Your secret technique and flurry are a bit low which leads me to believe you arent utilizing coup and your cd window properly

[shrewd lantern]

antenna enjoyers

on dimmy sure

[tulip folio]

wow u didnt had to flex that much (jk )

okay mine is 17 priory

i think im good

so pressing black powder instead of eviscarate even in dance is good if pull is big

right ?

more then 4 targets

ofc coup de grace is higher in prio

coupe > powder if 4 or more > evis

[shrewd lantern]

depends when your next one is

[tulip folio]

i send them instantly

😄

[shrewd lantern]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[shrewd lantern]

what

?

The first one

i mean if you cant tell by that

you need to read/practice the spec more

Most of the times you have coup is around dance sequences

probably because its good albeit slightly worse than antenna

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VLGMgFDmqCQWTcyd?fight=10&type=auras&source=5&ability=1239641

How I feel after being so confident despite being blatantly wrong

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/q3ChfBDgNRb1AFjy?fight=37&type=auras&source=787&ability=1239641

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wNGkjpbV4RdXfFT9?fight=69&type=auras&source=469&ability=1239641

If you're gonna say a stupid statement at least back it up.

[tribal blade]

yeah i've done really good dmg in DB with antenna

[shrewd lantern]

The orbs dont even have fuckery with the boat?

[tribal blade]

it's actually easier to use antenna in DB because you're never running around

[tribal blade]

there seems to be some fuckery, but mostly fine

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah i've never had orbs not pass through my model due to z axis consistently.

[tribal blade]

the main issue is when orbs spawn and you run to them they'll do weird things like run away from you

but overall antenna is very easy to use in there

every single pull you're planted in 1 spot

[shrewd lantern]

I just let the orbs come to me

usually anyway

[tribal blade]

yeah usually works out

[shrewd lantern]

idk i dont like double on use much

unless i know tank is slamming

i guess 32-37% uptime on the buff is useless though

according to this guy

[tribal blade]

double on use is really good if you don't have gaps on when you're sending cds

[shrewd lantern]

yeah aka

not for the average pug andy

[tribal blade]

you can miss a lot of orbs and anteanna is still really good

for my build i had to set anteanna to 80% miss rate for it to beat forge in dslice

so there's that

[shrewd lantern]

what are you playing even

[tribal blade]

tea+1 finality

[shrewd lantern]

well thats "standard" i guess

i say that as if finality or rotten change gameplay

[tribal blade]

yeah it's pretty standard

[shrewd lantern]

i dont think anyone doesnt play deeper

unless you on some weird nado hour

albeit fuck tea in db

and most smaller dungeons

🤢

[tribal blade]

tea would be so good if they just didn't add that stupid auto proc

[shrewd lantern]

idk

vigor sub feels way too spammy

ngl

[tribal blade]

i prefer it

[shrewd lantern]

i dont even track tea when i play it

i just

[tribal blade]

i get tilted when i can't press buttons

[shrewd lantern]

have it macroed

and forget

[tribal blade]

yeah macroing is the move

[short radish]

nah not pressing buttons is the best

stretch your wrists homie

[shrewd lantern]

i like flaming the ranged

for the 20s interim

before my flag

[tribal blade]

NEED PRESS

[short radish]

holy based

[shrewd lantern]

idk about that one

my sim doesnt even like crit much

as is

[tribal blade]

my sims really like crit

all the time

[shrewd lantern]

like it wins on dslice by like 20k

but uh

as soon as i sim patchwerk

it refuses to put on logic alpha

despite i only have 1 crit jewelry

not sure if the crit giving my maghar potential to give crit instead of vers

is a reason

[tribal blade]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1tM4YpcURFcW6Hvc8Q3hiu

[shrewd lantern]

too lazy to go to my pc

[shrewd lantern]

oop only hc forge

[tribal blade]

yeah i have either heroic forge or m antenna

[shrewd lantern]

so antenna in most cases

lmao

[tribal blade]

yeah except for dim prog

[shrewd lantern]

honestly im debating atp

becaause uh

artosh dies very shortly afer my cb sectec

and pargoth is being clapped

[tribal blade]

atp?

[shrewd lantern]

at this point

[tribal blade]

ahh gothca

[shrewd lantern]

shit is so cursed i gotta squeeze in my coups

before the push

[tribal blade]

yeah it's pretty cursed now

i experimented with only sending 1 cd set in P1

so you have it up immediately on plat 1

but doesn't work well for me, my raid doesn't do enough dam

[shrewd lantern]

damn a whole 6k dps

[tribal blade]

the difference is so small it doesn't really matter

you can play what you prefer

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i've been sending my second cds as they come up now

rather than wait to get the backend of the cds cleaved

[tribal blade]

yeah same, went back to that, it's better for my raid team

[shrewd lantern]

....

it barely matters

remind me when 1-2% dr

saves you

most misplays overkill you by way more

[tribal blade]

we have so many stats atm

[shrewd lantern]

like are we really arguing

how much 6k is gonna matter

XD

[tribal blade]

this is me fully buffed

[tulip folio]

oh btw

anyone have wa that squikes if ur targete by mob spell

?

[shrewd lantern]

yeah if you're being spam casted on without kicks

no vers is saving you

[tulip folio]

doing 17/18 with this stats

[tribal blade]

https://wago.io/ehoiSOhaH

[tulip folio]

so far im chillin

[tribal blade]

this will save your life many times

[shrewd lantern]

minor stat diffs arent make or break

[tulip folio]

yeah i know

i dont even bother to think about stats

i just sim]

[shrewd lantern]

unless someon can genuinely link me

[tulip folio]

make sure i have decent versa

since i want to push higher

[shrewd lantern]

multiple instances of 1-2% overkill

that a few more vers would save against

[tribal blade]

as sub you just naturally ahve a shitton of vers

if you just follow the robot for your stats you'll end up having high vers and an optimal spread for max dps

you just mostly want to have shout buff+skyfury

yeah but slot in an ele

instead of rsham

maybe

[open stump]

hey guys, i wanted to ask when i use black powder. on how many + targets and when did i use it instead of evis?

[distant sage]

on 3+ if they have find weakness on them

i think there is a wa that count how many mobs have it on them

[distant sage]

https://wago.io/ZpPc-YY4v

[humble rover]

how do we handle thistle tea now, it drinks automagically, very annoying

[fleet acorn]

u spec it and gg - can macro into dance and done

[vale pine]

just macro it with dance and forget about it ^^

[limpid sage]

You consume all of the charges in the opener, so there’s no real gain from playing around the energy condition

[lilac stag]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[humble rover]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[distant sage]

are sub logs cooked or?

[sullen hare]

What difficulty? What boss?

[lilac stag]

I was just waiting for a complete sentence / explanation instead of the mind reading approach.

[sullen hare]

It never came though sub is just cooked I guess

[lilac stag]

seems accurate

[distant sage]

+16 arakara

[short radish]

17 dawnbreaker

[lilac stag]

18 priory

[plush roost]

Why not just link your log

[lilac stag]

too easy

They’re trying to be subtle about it

[graceful osprey]

To align with the sub rogue theme, sub rogue damage should be hidden and the dps can’t be detected by dps meters.

[distant sage]

i died twice

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/nBNF3ZkhKVrW9pjg?fight=last

is there anything that I can do better(aside from dying)

[wispy crystal]

Any sub rogues here can out DPS their frost DK on mythic soul Hunters?

Or should I accept that their class is superior on 3 target cleave 😭?

[tepid trellis]

depending on kill timer should be sorta similar

[wispy crystal]

For soul Hunters is it advisable to run double on use trinket like prism + Araz?

Or go with prism + antenna?

[fossil forge]

would it be worth not using a trinket on second cds just to blast platform with 18 prism stacks?

https://tenor.com/view/think-meme-thinking-memes-memes-2024-gif-6703217797690493255

[rigid sparrow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[humble rover]

is both araz and netherprism used for m+`?

[vale pine]

the most commonly used combination is forge + prism

but prism with a passive option is fine too

[humble rover]

so araz nether is just for the raid?

oh

araz and forge is same

you bamboozled me, i shall not take this lightly

[vale pine]

haha

[random hare]

https://tenor.com/view/capybara-gif-26401163

[humble rover]

maximum hamster

[random hare]

?

its not a hamster

@tepid trellis he doesn't know its a horse lol

or is it capybara

idk they both look the same

[vale pine]

its a capibara

its too big for a hamster

[random hare]

but the ears are horse ears

[dry plank]

broke my heart 🙁

[chrome palm]

Daring today

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-meme-spongebob-spongebob-squarepants-squidward-how-original-gif-20004154

[random hare]

sub is arguably one of the worst specs in the game in high M+ atm

all rogue specs actually

[vale pine]

rogue just fell off

because stuff survives longer

[random hare]

main reason being shaman hps got nerfed alot this season and assa spatter and poison dmg just fell off hard

they fixed spatter dmg and they overbuffed all bleed dmg constantly on ptr

so the build became aoe oriented

and it cant live high keys because resto just cant heal it

unlucky

just changes that never made sense

honestly main reason why this season is so dead more than an average dead fated season is no balance changes and no mid season updates

[tulip folio]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[dry plank]

ye i feel bad playing m+, worse than even shadow priest

pure dps without utility and low dps what a combo bombo

[chrome palm]

sub is def not low dps its just low st

[lilac stag]

it’s dps isn’t high in keys and it’s antifunnel. Usually not a great combo for those bleeding edge key pushers.

game is just dead so nothing really matters

[chrome palm]

i disagree sub dps seems very high in keys

but the antifunnel is pretty bad

you have prism and the tank pulls something onto the boss you just gotta say sorry to your dh

[lilac stag]

3 months to afk end of expansion content. Haha

[hazy breach]

Not really, just depends on kill timers

Can be insanely high

Can be low

[chrome palm]

i mean you have some pretty long fights like big momma and youll see bm doing like 20% more than what you are in st

its disgusting

[hazy breach]

But yeah sub does very good dps in keys, just not enough to justify no utility

[chrome palm]

i love the "rogue can you sap x mob?" - "no because /truesight in group/were in combat/theyre a mechanical/etc"

[hazy breach]

Every mob has truesight

[chrome palm]

im having groups where people literally forget that shroud is a thing

[fathom adder]

how do you open on dimensius myth? do you do the normal opener into dim and cleave the 3 adds or do you insta flag -> cds into adds?

[fluid fiber]

Just go with a bm hunter and let him destroy the bosses

[iron whale]

is there a way for deathstalker to work in delves

and in overworld in general

[lilac stag]

play assa

If you want deathstalker

[fringe geyser]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[fringe geyser]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[iron whale]

but sub is my only love for rogue

🙁

[lilac stag]

you ain’t playing deathstalker then

[iron whale]

so stupid how they make hero talents so one-sided btw

they should be more flexible

[lilac stag]

That’s the spec not the hero talents.

Shit just don’t work with DS.

Play rogue or play sub. That’s up to you.

[iron whale]

ahha wdym !!!

😆

[fast solar]

Hey guys, any tipps for dimi? cant decide between sub or assa. Any suggestions?

[fleet acorn]

U play what u want

[fluid fiber]

man, if u dont have a team for m+ ur just fucked at this point. I have 19 resi and for 4 days I dont get invited for any +20 at all. propably 4-5 hours an evening in que without a single invite for 4 days. And if u play ur own key u get the worst of the worst ppl and even tho it's resi you go insane. And every key +20 has fkn "Note" in the info and they want a tip. Nah, fk this game. I need to find another game, this fucks with my mental health actually

[fleet acorn]

+1 but its not the game its the playerbase - pay for invites - wow Hit its lowest - soon need to pay for normal raid invites too 😂

[fluid fiber]

ye it's actually getting crazy. This resi key stuff was great on one hand but on the other hand it completely fucked pugging in higher keys idk. people with no resi keys at +20 for example want higher rio ppl, in the best case scenario ppl who already timed that specific key to reroll theirs. And people who have resi keys want gold. What a fucked up scenario tbh

it's actually out of control. When I que up for keys, people now actively whispering me how much I am gonna tip...:D

And when I play my own key, people will join, fuck it up first pull, don't even say sorry and just leave

[fleet acorn]

There needs to be a Report for that ingame - like: Report pug key seller

[shrewd lantern]

because the good players make sure the people they’re playing with are good

aka make a team

or just make friends

[ornate lotus]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[ornate lotus]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[solar thicket]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```

[solar thicket]

Any explain why to use it on shadow dance instead of secret techniques?

[hazy breach]

Literally doesnt matter

[solar thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/okay-sounds-good-jim-halpert-the-office-good-point-gif-15559601663074157456

[zealous hedge]

mastery buff stack for the big sectech

[dapper moat]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[fast flax]

do we get improved posion for halls miniboss?

or with 3 stack is just fine

[short radish]

i'd drop rushed setup for improved WP if im ever taking WP in a dungeon

20% of kidney shot which you use maybe 20 times is kinda whatever

[vernal junco]

For dimensius p3 vulnerability, do we just run our normal burst rotation, or is there a shorter version we should use?
It seems like the second sc doesn’t land inside the window

[short radish]

build up full CP before going into it then you

Flag -> symbols + dance + sblade + sectech all at once

[vernal junco]

So there’s no way for the second SC to get farmed back within the window no matter what?

[tepid trellis]

if you prep and dont push early into p3

you can fit both

[short radish]

gotta prep hard though

[tepid trellis]

0,6 sec left my 2nd sectech has done its full dmg

i did not prep that hard just had full cp

[vernal junco]

ok

[warm marlin]

if you cant fit second sectec you can just skip rupture

and do flag full cds sectec

you get about the same damage from extra eviscerate later vs. having rupture running the whole time

[chrome palm]

does anyone know the % difference of damage for coup with fw up or not

[tepid trellis]

Around 12% less on the phys hits and then just take out shadowed finishers %

[chrome palm]

ty

[tepid trellis]

Which is a bit over 30% of the phys hits

[alpine wraith]

basically you lose more than 40% dmg if you use it on a non fw target more or less

[fossil forge]

credit goes to fimbulvoker

[short radish]

[high grotto]

is there a reason cold blood doesnt show when talented on sub when swapping specs

[haughty mural]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[fossil forge]

Is there any way i can stop oneshotting voidwarden with nimble flurry

I always have the most damage to the wrong one

Hands off keyboard into mewing combo

[plush roost]

Target the void warden since youre guild is probably holding arto pargoth damage anyway and look silly on details

[late elm]

why my rapture is crap https://wowanalyzer.com/report/1yrwd8J792M6Kmqk/1-Mythic++Eco-Dome+Al'dani+-+Kill+(25:47)/Lobùz/standard/overview
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1yrwd8J792M6Kmqk?fight=last&type=summary&comparesearchplayer=5&comparesearch=2.10.2.28

[late elm]

i know but still dunno why im onlyu 60% 🙁

[lilac stag]

spec isn’t implemented
doesn’t understand why numbers don’t number

[alpine wraith]

if you have only 60% rupture uptime maybe you powered down the monitor for a bit

and forgot to turn it on again

but as you might expect that is unlikely

[late elm]

i mean i have 60% parse not rupture

[lilac stag]

you didn’t press buttons in right order

[lilac stag]

@late elm use can use !log but this place gonna be a ghost town until prepatch.

[late elm]

!log

!log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1yrwd8J792M6Kmqk?fight=last&type=damage-done&comparesearchplayer=5&comparesearch=2.10.2.28&source=5

[fossil forge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[fossil forge]

could some1 drop the macro so u wont double press symbols

[lilac stag]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[fleet acorn]

Anyone who plays araz in m+? I’m playing prism and Antenna but Not sure its good to Switch or not since I don’t have araz but got 3 coins

17+ keys

[lilac stag]

personal choice is all it comes down to

Azar lets you focus cds a bit more, but if you’re not using it and prism on cd it can get ugly

[fleet acorn]

I don’t have a personal Choice since I don’t have the trinket so im asking for advice

[lilac stag]

I’m explaining chief

Simmer down

[fleet acorn]

Oh u were writing it was a 1 liner mate

Milisecond ok ty

[lilac stag]

antenna gives you a shit ton of agility all the time and the orbs are the rng.

[fleet acorn]

Ye i think antenna is better

[distant sage]

on db u can try two on use

[fleet acorn]

Can use prism with stacks how I want

On cd

[distant sage]

it feels real nice on dawnbreaker

[fleet acorn]

Otherwise Holding for crit passive seems meh

[lilac stag]

DB is likely the only key azar will feel better unless the tank is special. You can get so many TFD resets that line up with both on use.

get a messed up route or pull and azar loses imo

I love double on use, just better in raid than m+

[fossil forge]

@lilac stag ty gang

[austere elm]

hi fellow backstabbers!
any first dance tracker weakaura out there? ty

[lilac stag]

It’s easy enough to do on your own. Make a border condition on dance that changes color when the buff is up.

You can use the templates to make a bar aura for the countdown until active.

[hearty orbit]

Hey guys, is it worth adding shuriken storm to the opener with talented The Rotten?

[alpine wraith]

not really you storm now between coups mostly for st

for aoe you stormed a bit before while putting ruptures so some mobs have FW

and bp is so strong even using it at 4 targets always is neutral to good

so you dont really care anymore about FW in aoe

[hearty orbit]

got u

thx

[lilac stag]

Basically don’t play rotten

[quaint lodge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[thorny ridge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[flint parrot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[ionic tinsel]

Is there ever a case to play dark brew? Or is Shadowcraft always better?

[hazy breach]

Should just be shadowcraft

Gives up too much ST by going DB

Not worth

(even though it sims fine on big target counts)

[plush roost]

^basically this

Was fun to pad keys with but not practical

[short radish]

use the one in luxthos

[errant ferry]

!atrophic

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[errant ferry]

booo it doesnt show dimmy

[short radish]

just press feint on everything

[serene notch]

if you play rotten is it better to SS instead of BS befor eyour first sectec?

[maiden oar]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRbbVqlyvPRWxPiMH5825BKQutI4FQA8j5cBEB49M8BVw50yKlrDmnyI12q10vEQPrhskrR_EydtwzZ/pubhtml#gid=187697627

[austere elm]

im not an expert with WAs. which options I chose in the first roll down? trigger aura? i add spell id of the first dance and doest do anything.

[austere elm]

nvm i did it with the premade aura creator 🙂 it was actually easy

[short radish]

attalad

[dry plank]

Phah according to raider io sub and assa meta 🙂

Only law is break the meta

[limpid sage]

no, but if you have coup up already you can use storm instead

[tulip folio]

whats best m+ talants

for sub atm

coz i see some variatons

[alpine wraith]

there is not a lot of difference

it is like 1% up and down on st and aoe

[vale pine]

you have some variations in build options, you just see preferences ^^

[tulip folio]

wow my goat

u see thing is i dont like coldblood

atm i play with tea build

but i see somepeople play tea build with tornado

is it better or just some wired build

[vale pine]

tea is perfectly fine

tornado is not bad

just feels bad to use

[tulip folio]

if i go tornado what do i drop

and where it places in rotation

[vale pine]

you would switch vt -> tornado

so this

[tulip folio]

ok thanks but

i got much better at sub but still its so unnecessarily complex in sense that nothing is intuitive

thanks for help thoe

[vale pine]

The easiest way to think/learn is to think about it in 90 sec cycles.
You will always use your cooldowns 2 times with flagellation/blades.
But then have 1-2 uses between.

Due to cooldown restrictions, you will usually do:
4 times (so 2 times during flag/blades + 2 times outside)
3 times (so 2 times during flag/blades + 1 time outside)
(then move back to 4, 3, ....)

which is roughly the image i attached:

^ maybe that helps

flagellation is used with blades, its just not on the image (can think of the blades/flag use to follow the opener usually)

cooldown management is kinda the difficult part, for keys you usually can plan a bit around pulls

[tulip folio]

yeah i try to play like that

but thing is if something happends in ur blades window like u get mechanic or something and u cant have uptime or have to move u basicly losse all of ur dps

[vale pine]

thats unforchunate

but correct

[tulip folio]

for example i just did 17 eco dome

[vale pine]

all of your damage is in cooldowns

so if you fuck them up, you do no damage

[tulip folio]

on first boss i didnt planed ahead for min that i would get next set of puddles to drop

and when i got it i was in my blades and missed secound sectec blades window

😄

[vale pine]

learned the hard way ^^

but that happens

[tulip folio]

i kinda like that u have to plan ahead and even if u know stuff in theory there lot more to it to become efficent

[vale pine]

everyone experiences things like this, you sometimes missjudge the situation and end up losing a lot of damage

[tulip folio]

alsou since ur here ill ask some stuff im not sure about still 100%

[vale pine]

sure just ask

[tulip folio]

way i do stuff is like this

stealth shadowstrike flag rupture dance symbol backstab blades sectec

right i hope thats right 😄

but here question

afther sectec i hit shadowstrike right to get combo points again

then im confused coz iv been told if there more then 4 targets u should blackpowder if less eviscare and always prio coup de grace above them and use them pereferbly in dance

[vale pine]

well

[tulip folio]

so if its big pull afther first blades sectec do i just shadowstrike powder inside dance or eviscare inside dance

[vale pine]

if you have coup de grace

you use evis to proc it

[tulip folio]

coz iv been alsou told to only blac powder outside dance

[vale pine]

else you would just use bp

[tulip folio]

https://tenor.com/view/bookio-book-io-og-book-club-book-mint-minting-books-gif-3278128676997438990

[vale pine]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[vale pine]

it sounds way more complicated than it is

but its rly simple

[tulip folio]

ok makes sense

[vale pine]

with 4+ targets:

Is coup de grace up?
YES - use evis
NO - Use BP

[tulip folio]

what about holding coups for dance

coz sometimes i try to hold them but end up loseing them and not sending at all

😄

[vale pine]

you would only hold it if dance was with blades

and won't rly do it in aoe

[tulip folio]

ok

this makes more sense

alsou i dont know like im preatty sure my opener is consistant but

sometimes i hit 40m on flood first pull

sometimes i bearly do 25m

😄

[vale pine]

also one thing that can make things easier to understand

[tulip folio]

but i press all the same everytime

[vale pine]

thats just coup procs

and ofc how fast you use your cooldowns

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[vale pine]

you can optimize prism for high stacks on big pulls

for extra high burst

[vale pine]

^ think this is rarely talked about

but if there is a lot of stuff on the floor and you need to run a lot

[tulip folio]

omg i think i just solved big issue

😄

[vale pine]

it many times is better to just storm + bp even on like 3 targets

[tulip folio]

i just checked i had flag macrod with prism

[vale pine]

simply because you often would not use spells else

[tulip folio]

not blades with prism

😄

[vale pine]

you always line prism up with your cooldowns

so you would never use it outside of blades/flag

[tulip folio]

for now i still use macro since i dont think im good enough to not 😄

im 3,5k btw

i dont even know how

like i cant play my spec propperly yet

😄

[vale pine]

you can macro it to blades, which is usually fine

if you want to min/max the use, ofc best to have seperate buttons

or a macro for blades that allows you to use it without prism

(e.g. via key modifier)

[tulip folio]

no i have macros but i still have all spells on sperate key

s

macros i use atm is dance+symbols

and shadowblades prism temp pot

[vale pine]

what i mean is like

[tulip folio]

thoes are only 2 macros i use

[vale pine]

e.g. lets say your blades is on E

so you can make it:

• normal use -> blades + prism
• shift + E -> only blades

so you don't need extra key binds and can still manage your prism

[tulip folio]

hmm i get it

but is it okay to send prism with everysingle blade

[vale pine]

i usually do things like this, because i am too lazy to create more binds

[tulip folio]

like every 1:30 u should get like 7-9 stacks

[vale pine]

yes its okay

[tulip folio]

right in theory

[vale pine]

but like

if you want to do the biggest damage in a massive pull

stacking prism to 18 is rly good

which you wouldn't without not using it once

[tulip folio]

i see

[vale pine]

thats like some min/max optimization you can do

especially when starting out

its usually better to go for comfort

[tulip folio]

ill stick to useing blades prism for now

but thanks for info helps alot

hope rogue becomes more fun in midnight fingerscrossed

[vale pine]

think midnight just needs more time

a lot of it just feels unfinished

[tulip folio]

idk other day i checked whispyrs sub video

it was deppresing

:/