subtlety

[vale pine]

let me quick find a image i made a while ago

[radiant swift]

ye but if youre in a m+ key your not going in your head "1" "2"

[crystal bone]

shirley they haven't added everything yet and midnight sub is just unfinished

[radiant swift]

right?

[tepid trellis]

in keys if it consistent AoE

you can almost always do 2x inbetween

cant say for others, but no i do not count in my head xD

i just looks at remaining cd on flag and my dance charges

to figure it out

[radiant swift]

god forbid imagine

ye i tought so

roughly

and with enough playtime u know

this looks dope tho

[vale pine]

ah there it is

thats from one of the patchwerk fights in the raid

you see

[radiant swift]

i remember the sequence being pretty much this when i left in dragonflight so it didnt change much but now you have this dance/runes outside of it

which is dope

[vale pine]

4 dances
3 dances
4 dances
4 dances (because fight ends after (so he sends what he can)

[radiant swift]

huh he almost got 3 every ime

[vale pine]

you always get 3

2 during blades + flag

and then one every time

and a 2nd only every 2nd cycle

thats why its 4-3

[radiant swift]

oh yeah i rechecked the image

looks cool tho

kinda bigburn/small burn on arcane

[vale pine]

yes

[radiant swift]

is the small burn noticeable

[vale pine]

you can also align cooldowns in Midnight

which would lead to this

[radiant swift]

i mean it looks better than

[vale pine]

but thats like

2 dances

[radiant swift]

whatever the f this is

[vale pine]

then 74 sec of "nothing"

[radiant swift]

[vale pine]

it is

shadow blades seperated from dance

^^

[radiant swift]

iirc sub had this window of "nothing" for long no?

[crystal bone]

i hope blizz see's whispyr's video

[radiant swift]

atleast in df

[tepid trellis]

end of df, you had dmg downtime yes

[vale pine]

we always had downtime

but it was always a balance

wod it was 10 sec dance for 50 sec downtime

[radiant swift]

this now looks cool tho

[vale pine]

but that felt horrible back then

and only was liked because you did excessive amounts of damage

[radiant swift]

didnt have fun either just repturing and shuriken into bp

for idk how long

[vale pine]

legion was high dance uptime

and then went into short burst cycles of ~25 sec

which made a good balance between downtime and burst

[radiant swift]

so similar to now

?

[vale pine]

now its like

[radiant swift]

man im excited to play this

[vale pine]

16 sec burst

and then 1-2 8 sec burst phases

[radiant swift]

surely there has been feedback that this is superb and

[vale pine]

Legion in comparison was

~5-7 sec burst every 25 sec

so you never had extended downtime

BfA went a bit back on it and had longer dance uptimes again

SL went all on shadow dance uptime

[radiant swift]

doesnt sound to bad overall

surely they fix it for midnight then

[vale pine]

and we had at the end of SL a version with ~70%-80% dance uptime

[crystal bone]

i wish they would keep sub how it is and just remove some buttons for midnight

current sub is a lot of fun

[radiant swift]

ah the adr threatment

[vale pine]

thats what people expected

its just

the main problem atm is

soo much damage is in strike

so dance/vanish is all the damage

[radiant swift]

i would ask what this change stems from but spec knowledge is not there

[vale pine]

but dance is 2 dances every 90 secs

so you get very little of it

[radiant swift]

it didnt seem liek that many changes from whispyrs vidfeo

to the version now in terms of talents and other stuff

[vale pine]

its a lot of change

that breaks conventions

finishers do less damage

[tepid trellis]

they stripped cdr, removed dmg amps on dance, buffed shadowstrike by 150% plus added talents that buff strike dmg as well

[vale pine]

and the removal of cdr means cooldowns are way less commonly used

maybe its easyer to understand in numbers

atm we have like 33% uptime

[radiant swift]

i mean personaly im not that against it

[vale pine]

in Midnight we are down to below 20%

[radiant swift]

with mage you have cds every 1.1min

eh i mean its not bad

i mean having cds that much up

as long as theyre like impactful

something like fire mage 9000% burst uptime but it does so little is so boring

(imo)

[vale pine]

i don't know

think doing backstab for 74 sec

isn't good gameplay

[radiant swift]

no that is terrible

[vale pine]

also

what isn't maybe obviouse

they now wanted to give all cooldowns a purpose

[radiant swift]

but i also think having cds up all the time but they (obv) do way less isnt good either

[vale pine]

it is why dance becomes only for shadowstrike

more or less

and symbols only increases damage from finishers

(and feels completely useless, now that finishers do significantly less damage overall)

[radiant swift]

which is stupid

[vale pine]

i understand what they are trying to do

but i think it makes it harder for them to work toward their goals

e.g. i would argue damage amps are easy to understand

"you do more damage"

[radiant swift]

easier for sure

but wheres the flavour in that

[vale pine]

but thats now changed

spells now do "critical bonus damage" instead

or something completely else

or like the new talent

30% of your mastery

[radiant swift]

that is just as vanilla as it can be

[vale pine]

30% of your mastery is something i need to think about to understand

and you need to look up your mastery

its way more complicated than

"your spell does 5% more damage"

or similar

[radiant swift]

is it

[solemn creek]

Problem is putting dance/symbol on the same category as a cooldown (i.e shadow blade)

But dance is a rotationnal aspect of the class. Shoulnt be suffering the same issue as cooldown

[vale pine]

it also has a conditional

[uneven scarab]

Idk i think stuff like that is whatever, its more just what they’ve done to the overall picture

Damage amps are pretty easy to understand as well im with you there fuu

[vale pine]

i think it contributes

[uneven scarab]

not sure why that was a pain point

[vale pine]

the aim of the rework is to make things easy to understand

easy to play

and give the player dynamic

in how they use cooldowns

[uneven scarab]

love when we are given essentially the opposite

[vale pine]

and its like

subtlety design now has a fingerprint

[uneven scarab]

I think the way we use cooldowns now is pretty damn intuitive

[vale pine]

let me show you something

[uneven scarab]

as well

Compared to midnight

[vale pine]

shadowcraft

current version has the combo point refund, so the last part of the tooltip

now MIdnight, removes the refund mechanism from the spell, and puts it in the apex talent

but there is the catch

it now triggers on 5+ stacks

and you need to press a builder before the finisher

[uneven scarab]

yeah i definitely think the new version is more complicated than what we had

[vale pine]

so the spell is just more complicated

[uneven scarab]

yeah

[tepid trellis]

hey you now get a buff + visual when it procs fuu, its goated

[uneven scarab]

i see what u mean

Do u really?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[uneven scarab]

worth it

[tepid trellis]

when you strike with 5+ sht stacks you get a buff plus a screen effect like heating up for firemage or PS for outlaw

[vale pine]

that might be good tbh, because you get visual feedback

[uneven scarab]

Visual feedback always goodge

we love that

[uneven scarab]

Oooh okay

thats not bad tbh

[tepid trellis]

so it quite literally screams at you "REFUND COMING"

[uneven scarab]

yeah nice

[vale pine]

👍

[radiant swift]

why are yall so against complexity tho

where is the fun in just being handed whatever

[uneven scarab]

i dont think anyone is saying that

[north schooner]

complexity doesn't necessitate fun

[uneven scarab]

What we are saying is for the most part the goals they had for midnight don’t exactly align

[radiant swift]

i didnt mean in general to sub

but people seem to happy the way atleast points

[uneven scarab]

and if anything current sub on the surface is easier to understand than midnight sub

[vale pine]

I am for complexity

where it makes sense

complexity for the sake of it

is not

[brisk onyx]

changing to direct +5cp feels more intuitive. To be honest, I am tired of the refund mechanism, especially since there is no WA to make a sound prompt.

[tepid trellis]

complexity is fine, if its intuitive

[vale pine]

^

[carmine portal]

Intuitive complexity is great
Complexity for the sake of difficulty (percieved or actual) is not

[vale pine]

also something to not confuse is

complexity does not mean difficult

you can have 8 buffs that all interact with each otherr

which is a complex system

but just have it mean one spell does more damage

[lilac stag]

I think complexity, if intuitive, is good. Unintuitive complexity for the sake for complexity is not healthy. Really not that complex.

[vale pine]

which is super simple

[lilac stag]

anyone else?

[uneven scarab]

I think complexity, if intuitive, is good. Unintuitive complexity for the sake for complexity is not healthy. Really not that complex.

[radiant swift]

true i just dont want it to have classic level complexity

[vale pine]

i do think the current retail level is good

[carmine portal]

I think afflic is a good example: dot maintainence is not DIFFICULT, but it adds a layer of complexity.

[vale pine]

if you remove some of the unintuitive things

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bongo-cat-rogue-gif-24661232

We’re so back

[radiant swift]

sub really is hard to ge to at first

[vale pine]

it is rly mostly

because of cdr from combo points

because you don't understand whats the real cooldown of dance and secret is

[uneven scarab]

I think if you played any rogue spec before sub, its not that bad. But it its your first rogue spec i can see it being confusing

[vale pine]

so youc an't plan around it

and also why so many struggle with cooldown management

[lilac stag]

Explain that to assa every time they feel forced to play sub.

[carmine portal]

my gf loves the CRUNCH refund sound effect I have

[vale pine]

but once you understand the e.g. 4 dances, 3 dances , repeat rule

it becoems fairly easy

[uneven scarab]

smh those boomers just dont wanna learn

[radiant swift]

agree

[vale pine]

i mean its not an set in stone rule

but its 90% or more of your cooldown managament

[radiant swift]

its prob hard to balance aswell

[vale pine]

and the image i posted of a single target fight to showcase the rule in action

is from a rank 1 log

[radiant swift]

have it enough depth to have skill expression without making it cancerous

[vale pine]

so its everything needed to play at a high level knowlage wise

[limpid sage]

I think complexity, if intuitive, is good. Unintuitive complexity for the sake for complexity is not healthy. Really not that complex.

[night sparrow]

Hello there o/ do we agree you have to overcap dances on mythic Nexus King ?

[tulip wharf]

Where can I see that?

[vale pine]

#subtlety message

^ just a few messages up

[tulip wharf]

Thank you

Is it fair to apply the same rule to m+ to manage cds?

[vale pine]

yes

you are limited by symbols of death

^ this is the top level overview

[ripe wave]

Is ~5000 crit too low to perform well in sub ? I'm trying to understand why my damage is always shy of 2/3 M compared to other subs

[lilac stag]

use !log & post a log. Can’t really speculate but likely gameplay errors

[ripe wave]

!log

[scenic plover]

no that wasnt what i meant, the question was if its important that the sectech is at the start of the dance or is it ok if the dance has been running for 5s

[vale pine]

you want to use it as soon as you can

so first finisher is ideal

but e.g. every 90 sec

you will dance back to back

and the 2nd dance will not have secret up when you use dance, thats perfectly fine

to confuse you a bit more, its okay to use symbols/dance before secret is up outside of the 90 secs

so you can absolutely symbols-dance-finish-backstab-secret there

[upbeat sorrel]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[plucky mesa]

ah, ive been seeing parses on deathstlaker and its doing healer damage in keys, i was just wondering what was making it that bad or if blizz wont buff it

[slate lantern]

the whole spec is being upended in midnight so like a lot of dead hero trees in the game, probably won't receive updates at this point

[plucky mesa]

yeah i wish they would make legitimate alternative builds to choose from instead of just one really good one from every class

[graceful rock]

A bit random, as someone who didnt play sub in season 1, can I have a tldr why is Deathstalker so despised compared to trickster?

[chrome palm]

It is basically designed entirely around assassination. For instance, Darkest Night buffs envenom for assa and eviscerate for sub. Envenom does aoe through caustic spatter, but eviscerate needs nimble flurry (Trickster talent) to do aoe, and is otherwise pure st. Thus, Darkest Night does st and aoe for assa, but only ever st for subtlety. Meaning that with sufficient targets (5+), gaining Darkest Night is actually a danage loss and you would rather use a cancelaura macro on the capstone effect. Playing around this means that you use shadow strike in dance on different targets to prevent Darkest Night from occuring (when possible). There are also a lot of bugs with Deathstalker, especially for subtlety. For instance, the same Darkest Night only buffs the physical damage from eviscerate, but not the shadow damage, or even the tier set for Deathstalker for subtlety, the symbols of death interaction is bugged with pandemic and inevitability.

[swift tinsel]

perfect time to ask that question lol

[graceful rock]

yeah i didnt read any context

right on time

[swift tinsel]

its like fate wanted you to know its that bad on live lmao

[graceful rock]

I just tried it out on a dummy and the only thing that really sticks out is the extra cdr from coup but it cant be just that

[swift tinsel]

it makes flag non-tfd dances feel really constrained when trying to fit 2x sectechs

as a big oof point

current tier set having symbols consume marks as well can lead to getting a DN at a really bad time too

[chrome palm]

Also the other option is trickster, which gives you a stacking finisher damage buff, more cdr on dance and secret technique, and lets you cleave your st abilities for insane aoe

[swift tinsel]

yeah, comparing anything to live trickster will feel bad in a lot of ways

[chrome palm]

Trickster just totally fits what people play subtlety for and sures up the historic weakness of sub (low target aoe)

[graceful rock]

Was DS bad in ST in season 1?

[swift tinsel]

nah

it was better/very close

[chrome palm]

They giga buffed DS at the tail end of season 1 to make it better in pure st

and then realized everyone hated it, and they kept it dogshit for the rest of the expac so we wouldnt have to play it

before this season came out, everyone knew deathstalker would be dogshit, because it was previously dogshit and it was also like the weakest tier set in the game, and blizzard NERFS the deathstalker tier set, which was their way of saying "yeah dont play this"

deathstalker is like the weakest hero talent/dps combination in the game afaik

[swift tinsel]

and its also funny bc you'd think by doing that it meant they were really cooking on a rework for it in midnight but its barely different

[graceful rock]

unless that extra row is crazy yeah theyre doing nothing to it for sub

[swift tinsel]

for sub at least

[graceful rock]

let us fatebound at this point

[swift tinsel]

removed 7cp requirement on DN and removed Fatal Intent for a 50% bs/strike buff after consuming mark

[chrome palm]

idk i have a feeling the extra column wont alter the capstone, since it is above the capstone, and the capstone is the main issue here

[swift tinsel]

yeah, from what I've seen of the other hero talents added its either s3 tier bonuses or pretty generic damage % increases

or like 2% mastery

[graceful rock]

what if they just let sec tech work on the capstone?

would that fix it?

[swift tinsel]

eh

[vale pine]

ds might be better in Midnight

[graceful rock]

or would we just play around it and be more cringe

[swift tinsel]

finishers are kinda weak atm with how they changed a lot of stuff

if anything adding black powder to it would be a nice qol

bc it makes aoe feel kinda weird

might skip evisc/dn in aoe as ds

will have to see what they end up adding (hopefully) this week

hoping for hero talents this week then cdr removal/rework the following, if not this week as well

[chrome palm]

in midnight they giga nerfed finishers and made shadow strike do more damage than anything else by far, then they gave DS a massive shadow strike buff talent, so as it stands its probably DS in st and then trickster in aoe (since it cleaves your hydrogren bomb shadow strikes). so dumb

[swift tinsel]

as well as actually implementing apex all the way

idk if we go trickster in aoe

might just become prio cannons in dance

[chrome palm]

cleaved strike insane nimble bomb

surely

[swift tinsel]

it'll depend on if we dance outside blades imo

which, if you only dance in blades that means our actual aoe is kinda poop

if trickster*

nimble bomb for 16 seconds then storm bp bot the rest

[chrome palm]

strong man cry

[graceful rock]

alt tab gonna get a lot of mid combat uses it seems

[swift tinsel]

bc with nado I doubt you lean into nimble bs cleave

[chrome palm]

'Activating Specialization: Assassination' gonna get a lot of between combat uses it seems

[swift tinsel]

I'm cool with being the big boss/prio target killer, I like that job

big number aoe is cool but I like making boss go die

alright got the bingo card updated for this week

https://bingobaker.com/view/9550502

[vale pine]

👍

[winter hill]

Is this the right spot to ask for log reviews?

[slate lantern]

drop a !log command and you can paste in there and ppl might take a look

[winter hill]

!log

[deep iron]

so Eviscerate is only a finisher for 3 target and less?

[uneven scarab]

if its a normal evisc yes

[night mauve]

hi, no burst maccro for sub ?

[mystic bough]

What for burst macro

[plush cove]

i mean you can just

do that yourself

/use
/cast
fill as needed

[crystal bone]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[slate lantern]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[slate lantern]

the faith is that its so bad in its current state that they have to change it

[vale pine]

yes

[plucky mesa]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/a6WYjqbnGDdvfKwC?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=3

can someone look at this and please tell me what im doing wrong, im 713, and my dps is straight ass,

i spread rupture outside of shadow dance, im pressing flag and shadowblades at the same time on CD, im using symbols before sec tech, but my damage still sucks, im getting out dps'd by a 700 arms warrior, and the problem lies in aoe my single target is pretty decent, but if yall can find a problem there aswell please lmk, im doing 6-7mil dps overall and it sucks, im getting out dps'd by people 15 ilvls under me

[deep iron]

is shadow techniques and coup de grace a AoE finisher?

[plucky mesa]

shadow tech is passive, and coup should be used on proc regardless of targets

[warm marlin]

I mean right away, you aren't supposed to cast flag and blades at exactly the same time. Here are some things I see in the first minute of the key: didnt flag straight into a finisher, didnt refresh dance after your first dance ended so spent the last 4 seconds of blades without dance up, dropped a gcd in dance (only got 11 of 12 possible globals in the first dance). For the third dance, didn't supercharge sectec.

your flag/blades at 3mins opens with no dance/symbols, then backstab into coup into backstab into coup then finally dance/symbols, did 0 burst for this cooldown window

[plucky mesa]

every guide im seeing says to cast flag and blades at the same time

[warm marlin]

not at the same time, at similar times

none of them suggest to cast it the exact same global

[deep iron]

my bad i meant secret technique

[warm marlin]

from the wowhead guide for example

you generally want to flag, finish, dance/symbols builder blades/sectec

[plucky mesa]

and this is for aoe and single target right?

[warm marlin]

ye just replace the evis with bp

your bigger issue is your later flags though, this is criminal. need to save dances for flag windows

[plucky mesa]

wym later flags?

[warm marlin]

in the log, the flags after the first couple

[vale pine]

you want to use your cooldowns in a stacked fashion

so you essentially want to use the opener sequence every 90 secs

and between that just dance with secret and symbols one or two times

[plucky mesa]

idk if its meant to be this way but i tried to opener you screenshotted and did less ST dps than from the way i do it lmmao

[rain hazel]

over how many iterations?

[plucky mesa]

im doing it in practice

like on a training dummy

[rain hazel]

once, twice, thrice, 5000 times?

[vale pine]

think its easier to think of it the other way

you essentially

want to have 2 symbols, and 1 dance with at least 30 sec cd left on the 2nd charge for your 90 secs

every dance use in between is extra

so you roughly have this sequence (cooldowns are just grouped up in the image)

(flagellation is used before blades, like in the opener)

but you essentially get a sequence of:

• 4 dances
• 3 dances
  and it repeats from there

each dance with symbols/secret

you are limited by symbols, so you can never rly go above that

ofc starting with multiple symbols charge

means you can do one or two more of this during a fight

i posted this a few weeks back, but you can see the 4-3 very good on patchwerk like fights

the image is a bit hard to read on mobile, and its just paint i added ^^

but its essentially
4-3-4-4(extra one was used here because fight was ending)

[fiery fog]

heyo, had a "longer" pause from wow
how is sub atm?
how "hard" is the rotation (or rather, does it feel good)? :D

[vale pine]

rotation feels rly good

the learning curve is a bit high, cooldown management is the essential part

you can jump just some messages up to #subtlety message if you want to get a rough overview

[slate lantern]

just dont get too attached to it

[vale pine]

that said, midnight will likely change the rotaiton quite a bit

@slate lantern the current alpha version won't go live like this, i am certain

i think its just a consequence of two things

whoever did the alpha changes seems to not be that familiar with subtlety, all changes he made make sense for less complex specs

[slate lantern]

yeah for sure, i think its still gonna be a far shout from live tho. just like current sub is everything blizz doesnt want the specs to be, even if we all love it

[vale pine]

and secondly, the amount of change was just too much, it would be more benefitial to go with an iterrative approach

because they ripped out many things central to the design

which is why we now have

instead of shadow dance every 25 secs

shadow dance every 45 secs

just one example, but the most central one you can say leads to the absurd amounts of downtime

[uneven scarab]

I think the hasted cd force was probably the worst part bc they clearly didnt test it much

[vale pine]

i mean

with how hasted cd's work

[swift tinsel]

even fundamentally it doesn't work

[vale pine]

you now need roughly 50% haste to get dance down to 30 sec

thats still higher than the current 25 sec

[swift tinsel]

hasted cdr works for abilities, not actual cooldowns

[uneven scarab]

Yeah is that not insane

[swift tinsel]

like look at monk, dh, etc

[uneven scarab]

not very much testing for sure

oh yeah

[vale pine]

also

hasted cd's are opt in

hell

[swift tinsel]

rsk, blade dance, fof, etc

those make sense

[vale pine]

means you trade off dps talents

just to get maybe benefits

[swift tinsel]

but active cooldowns with 30-1min cooldown hasted cdr is silly by comparison

[uneven scarab]

Yeah it just doesnt make sense

[vale pine]

think its fine to have hasted cds

[swift tinsel]

ability cds, not cooldown cds

[vale pine]

but shadow dance is now the only gameplay changing cd

[swift tinsel]

is what I'm saying

[vale pine]

blades you could argue too

but not using dance during blades

feels not great

even tho

it kinda does not matter

now that dance is just a tool to get shadowstrike

[swift tinsel]

idk I'd be fine with shorter duration, more frequent dance if they want Strike to be the punchy part of the damage profile

like Eye Beam+Demonic windows for havoc

[vale pine]

but this all loops back to my initial assumption, that its just too much change at once from someone who didn't work that much on older subtelty versions

[swift tinsel]

yep, its quite apparent

[vale pine]

i mean

they took 25% of our damage out

by removing flag

and strike is nowhere near as bursty as what we have atm

[swift tinsel]

yeah, that's an intentional thing methinks

[vale pine]

blizz just tries to reduce burst all together

[uneven scarab]

Flag being gone does have me quite worried

[swift tinsel]

which is why I'm not entirely surprised they didn't bake flag's damage into blades

[lofty path]

and now we have no burst

[swift tinsel]

or amp the 20% up

[lofty path]

which is sub's identity

[swift tinsel]

we still have burst

its not finishers anymore

its all strike

so dance becomes an all-or-nothing button

it'll be a question of where we dance

in vs out of blades

which, with the way things look now, only in blades seems likely

[vale pine]

its just:

• focus damage out of finishers to strike
• remove damage amps from dance and other things
• massively reduce dance uptime

[swift tinsel]

which does not bode well for overall gameplay

bc thats a ton of downtime doing nothing

[vale pine]

vanish is a damage cooldown now too

[uneven scarab]

Which are like….???? Seems extremely questionable and the opposite direction of what players love about sub

[swift tinsel]

yeah, with short-duration subterfuge which is okay imo

[vale pine]

you mean in blades?

[swift tinsel]

yeah, sorry

[vale pine]

i posted some images i made earlier

[swift tinsel]

fixed

[vale pine]

moment

ill post them again

[swift tinsel]

idk my worry is their idea of "Flexibility" is if we choose to stack dance in blades or cast between blades

so we opt into 1.5min burst only or flatter spread-out cds

[vale pine]

this is roughly how cooldowns would be played if you line things up with dance

vs. if you would not

[swift tinsel]

naked symbols lol

[uneven scarab]

[swift tinsel]

oof

[uneven scarab]

Mega oof

[swift tinsel]

ig with blades still being up for it its finisher damage

[vale pine]

the desync one sounds to me rly good

but idk

[warm marlin]

doesnt this waste so much dance cdr though

[uneven scarab]

yeah that just seems way more complicated than how we played before though

[vale pine]

its def. a sim ange

[warm marlin]

youre sitting on 2 charges for 30s

[swift tinsel]

in my mind apex makes blades and dance synergize so well it would feel kinda poop not to stack

[vale pine]

you can dance once in blades in the opener

[plucky mesa]

so basically i use flag as a buff to myself and not debuff to the enemy right?

so then by the time ive spread rupture and gotten secret tech off i pop blades

[vale pine]

and after that do the sequence

[plucky mesa]

is that right or am i still misunderstanding?

[vale pine]

dance is 45 sec cd

[warm marlin]

[vale pine]

you need an enemy to apply the debuff

[plucky mesa]

i know that

[vale pine]

but flagellation gives you a buff

once you used it on an enemy

the debuff does not matter

[plucky mesa]

but im saying i look at it like a personal buff during the opener instead of an enemy debuff

[vale pine]

and you line it up with your other cooldowns

[swift tinsel]

having only one dance for blades sounds kinda icky

[uneven scarab]

Its on yourself yes

[vale pine]

yes thats corect

[uneven scarab]

not the mob

[vale pine]

its a fast stacking mastery buff

essentially

[uneven scarab]

gives you mastery and does extra damage per cp spent

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

maybe they shorted blades to 12 sec

[vale pine]

its like 1.5% of your damage

1.3*

flagellation damage part is meh^^

[swift tinsel]

or

have inev extend dance

ohohoh

I like that actually

[uneven scarab]

Yeah the damage is nothing but it is there

[vale pine]

i did like the idea

of blades active during dance

[swift tinsel]

yeah that would be great

imo

then you never have to choose

[vale pine]

but idk how well that works with static dance cds

[swift tinsel]

and can do both

well

[vale pine]

shadowcraft and blades

[plucky mesa]

so am i using blades before secrete tech or after?

[vale pine]

feel like you would not use strike a lot

[swift tinsel]

if you get guaranteed dance in blades, you can move the 2x between-blades dances pretty much anywhere on either side of blades

[vale pine]

both is fine, diffrence is ignorable

[swift tinsel]

can make one really long blades chain to not have it later

[vale pine]

like the problem on alpha is

[swift tinsel]

or send them at specific times between blades for stuff like add spawns etc

[vale pine]

you want to get strike casts

[swift tinsel]

30sec static dance cd, 2x charges

[vale pine]

so you might not want to use dance during blades

but if you desync

you see on the sequence above

thats not intuitive

at all

so its kind of a mess of solving cooldowns before anything else

[swift tinsel]

I think the 'blades grants dance' part is the lowest-effort iteration

[vale pine]

and after that we can try to solve other problems like... rupture damage being stit

[swift tinsel]

and not in a bad way

[vale pine]

ye

[swift tinsel]

it removes the complexity that will be causing problems

[vale pine]

but they might want us to have a 90 sec cooldown

[swift tinsel]

that's fine

[vale pine]

so they would need to add flag again

😛

[swift tinsel]

there's plenty that have a 1.5min cd but also have cd windows between

fdk, unholy

come to mind

[lilac stag]

ah the repeatable conversation has seeped into the main channel from alpha channel

[vale pine]

haha

we just moved towards the topic from discussing rotation

[lilac stag]

perhapds we need to do !newmain in the sub alpha channel to keep it fresh

[vale pine]

XD

you mean only between rogue specs?

or all melees

[lilac stag]

i wouls say all melee

[bleak night]

make it everything cowards

[lilac stag]

go play MM

[bleak night]

i want someone to be forced to main hpal next season

[lilac stag]

if you could weight the other two rogue spec higher in the ranomizer and include all melee that would be mint

[maiden oar]

can i spin it until i get ww

[bleak night]

no

do not disrespect the randomizer

[swift tinsel]

!newmain

Grass-Toucher

hell yeah lfg

[radiant swift]

the 5 stacks of flawless form on coup - is that just 1min of flawless form?

[swift tinsel]

12 second buff duration

[radiant swift]

ye 5x times is that what i means with 5 stacks

[swift tinsel]

on live atm it acts like ironfur

[radiant swift]

or is it

[swift tinsel]

nah just the %

[radiant swift]

5x the %

i see so 1 flawless form 12 sec but 15% dmg

[swift tinsel]

so 15%

[radiant swift]

ty

[swift tinsel]

1 stack = 3%

[tropic fog]

yo guys how do you guys sim for m+? specific keys or do you do like 1min 5 targets or smth?

[slate lantern]

Dslice

[radiant swift]

is there even a point leveling normaly in lemix (unless u realy like it) opposed to just running dungeons?

[vale pine]

achivements

[radiant swift]

u get anything good from them? iirc

oh nvm u can instead of doing somenthing like raid and a +30 a amount of worldquests and stuff

[slate lantern]

You can get infinite knowledge by completing the loremaster for each zone

[radiant swift]

if i see right its just to fuse your thingy weapon

with whatever power that is

or do people do it for the achievement itself

[slate lantern]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/infinite-knowledge-and-you-maximizing-your-infinite-power-gains-378844

[radiant swift]

oh nvm i see it nnow

intrseting

idk i just wanna stack bronze for the cool shjitt

from what ive seen everything basicaly is buyable

[slate lantern]

Certain stuff is locked behind mythic raiding but that should be pretty easy

[mighty citrus]

on platform 2.2 on dim, can the orbs target melee too?

[warm marlin]

yes everyone has to bait

[radiant swift]

only thing i saw is like 2 things or like weapons behind raiding everything else

even mounts are buyable

i might be wrong tho obv

i rechecked @slate lantern quiet some things are behind questing and finishing like the questline

[fleet hill]

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/subtlety-rework-midrange/592337

This would be the dream for me 😅

[void ocean]

Delete dis.

[slate lantern]

👍🏄‍♂️ 🏄‍♀️ type shit

[wheat elk]

is there way to change the color of combo points in a weakaura?

there is nothing in the display tab

[fleet hill]

Better start using blizz ui and get used to it as weakauras are being removed in midnight.

[wheat elk]

5 to 6 month

till that happens

[fleet hill]

Yeah sure. But isnt it better just getting into it? Thats what im gonna do.

Im getting a wa detox

[swift tinsel]

the personal resource display sucks on live though

like a lot

and personally not a fan of either having my player frame right in the middle, or having to use peripheral vision to see combo points/energy

[final wasp]

!ban @jaunty heath

[winter hill]

Anyone know why this guy casts sec tech before shadow blades on pull?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9X2TBxMg1dmHw4kQ?fight=18&type=casts&source=92&view=events

I figured opener was flag -> rupture -> SD + SOD -> backstab -> SB -> sec tech

Is it better to sec tech before blades now?

[lilac stag]

Muscle memory

It was a minor min max, it didn’t matter now

[winter hill]

What was the reasoning

[swift tinsel]

it didn't used to buff clones

[winter hill]

Ah gotcha

[desert rover]

anyone wanna tell me why my dps sucks so hard I thought I was doing decent
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/q1FbkgGDTVtP2xw7?fight=33&type=damage-done&source=34

oh god its in french thats why

[swift tinsel]

you cb your first sectech and send prism at weird times

also a randomly cb'd sectech outside of cds

looks like you gotta clean up your flag windows across the board for the most part

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lilac stag]

Besides whatever else gets stated.

[desert rover]

I m lazy and macroed it together, for the time being coz otherwise I ll forget to use it 100% xd

[karmic harbor]

what's with the random prisms

[vagrant fulcrum]

so uh

how tf do people have cds for weakened on dimmy

i litterally sent blades + flag in the first 3 globals of landing on p2 and it still had like 10s when we started p3

[karmic harbor]

depends on ur push timings

[analog granite]

Are you guys beating frost on m+ meters after nerf?

[karmic harbor]

if you're getting to p3 that quickly kinda gotta just not send on p2

[rancid verge]

my coldblood + sectech macro isnt working, any idea why?

[karmic harbor]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[rancid verge]

it worked normally, just stopped casting cold blood out of nowhere

okay, thanks

[warm marlin]

fly even faster

[shrewd lantern]

already did

just dont do title range keys where the actual good dks are

[analog granite]

Around what rio is title range again

[sullen yarrow]

any good rogue watch this 18 hos vod i have

answer me

[bleak night]

answer him

https://tenor.com/view/sailor-moon-usagi-lol-choke-funny-gif-16620481914432799263

[sullen yarrow]

[alpine wraith]

any day now we will answer

just let us sleep first to think about it

[sullen yarrow]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HsWpED_y6Lgty7C6sNwcDaBo8ZN6P8YA/view?usp=sharing

thats me

[left ledge]

Currently I think it’s all 18s with some 19s maybe. Probably season end will be all 20s or 21s

[rigid sparrow]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[raven maple]

How important is rupturing multiple targets on pull as sub Rogue? does it contribute to a meaningful amount of damage? If so how many targets am I supposed to be rupturing on pull because I'm only doing 1.

[left merlin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sinful depot]

I was thinking all 19’s with a few 20’s by end of season

I’d estimate around 3850

[cedar willow]

A little bit of experience and feelscraft. That being said, rupturing is a great activity before mobs are grouped up

[plucky mesa]

so, outside of shadow dance, what am i doing? just spreading rupture?

[radiant swift]

is the non stop people declining of raid/lfr/dungeon a bug in lemix or

its so fucking anoying

[raven maple]

Mhmmm is see, So it's not pointless

[cedar willow]

If you do it right in high dungeons rupture should be around 4th damage done on your overall

[raven maple]

Thanks a lot, that's the answer I was looking for

[lilac stag]

bwahaah just doing weekly crap, what did I get myself into. PI and Aug

[radiant swift]

fuu u still here?

could someone possibly help me quickly to understand what exactly is happening in the sub playstyle?

nvm

mybe

[rancid crow]

Does anyone level a rogue with sub? Or do you guys swap to sub later?

[jagged hamlet]

play what you want but sub is probably best from 10-20ish

[wet robin]

is this supposed to be possible when using the cast sequence macro??

[jagged hamlet]

just bc shadowstrike does so much damage and adds utility

but after that id swap to ass

[wet robin]

im doing it every fkn pull and i want to die

[jagged hamlet]

then outlaw 40+

[rancid crow]

Ew, outlaw

[jagged hamlet]

PLAY WHAT YOU WANT THEN

[charred kestrel]

ur macro not workin then

[wet robin]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[wet robin]

can anyone resend the damn macro

i dont know what broken, its killing my dam

i upped it to 4 because I want to die and don't know what else to try

[swift tinsel]

put /cqs in the next line

[wet robin]

ok ty

[swift tinsel]

!symbols

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[lilac stag]

Is the macro on your stealth bar?

[wet robin]

I'll double check, but just killed M araz and it didn't happen

which is amazing lol

so im guessing haptics saved my ass

holy god i was about to end it all

[serene palm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sullen yarrow]

any good rogue sublety

[bleak night]

doubtful

[chrome palm]

sometimes

[ripe flame]

Only 2 mins a week on a good week

[wispy crystal]

Does Power Infusion give us any damage boost, or it's just haste which we do y need?

[sullen hare]

currently power infusion gives sub next to nothing

[stone oxide]

faster attackspeed rahhhhhh

[graceful rock]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[ornate heron]

when i dance i seem to be getting 4 combo points from a shadow strike even in aoe

is that normal? or is something wrong?

i thought i was supposed to get max combo points?

[dry plank]

Max guaranteed only during shadow blades

If you press dance and have premed that it will give you full. Than combination with symbols you should get full almost on every strike but sometimes you will end up with 4 yes

[ornate heron]

ty ❤️

also is the delve belt simming correctly on raidbots?

still simming higher than a myth 1/8 for me

[alpine wraith]

yes you change it at around 714-717 ilvl depending on other gear

so around 3 or 4 myth track

[sullen yarrow]

boys

i did it

[void ocean]

what is that brightness

[sullen yarrow]

hdr

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/lotr-beacons-lit-gondor-aid-gif-14737387

[sullen yarrow]

it shows more brightness for some reson

[dry plank]

Hunter with nickname hunter 🙂

[alpine wraith]

yea hdr krangles screenshots a bit

but it is fine

[north schooner]

there is a setting in windows to disable adding hdr to screenshots

[tribal blade]

anyone know off the top of their heads when you need autumn on dimmy

is it between platforms and then before p3?

[alpine wraith]

just as you land on platform 2

on p2

before it is kinda whatever

[tribal blade]

ok awesome

[alpine wraith]

because on p1 you hold

and on platform 1 autumn is not available

[tribal blade]

gotcha

[cloud rover]

and Platform 1 wouldnt get you anything

Because CDs are ready anyways at Platform 2

[tribal blade]

ahh yeah because dps stop

dps stops are fun

[cloud rover]

Also dont be flyer

[tribal blade]

i wasn't assigned yeah

i figured i wouldn't be

dratnos goes into detail about how you want your 2 min cd specs doing that

[lilac stag]

If our boy wants to be an astronaut, our boy can be an astronaut.

[tribal blade]

noooOOO

i want to DO DAMAGE

[cloud rover]

Ill assign our Dev Evoker to do mine

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1QV6ow2NLQ

[tribal blade]

/cry

[lilac stag]

Assign the outlaw rogue…

[cloud rover]

Jokes on you, im the sole rogue for 5 Years now

[lilac stag]

no cds? You can fly cowboy!

[lilac stag]

We get a second rogue for like 4 weeks (maybe) and then either they quit or the warrior quits

[tribal blade]

ME TOO

[cloud rover]

So i did Orb and we had no autumn, into Autumn and no orb

for thursday

[tribal blade]

damn

[cloud rover]

Our pally was on vacation for 2 weeks

[tribal blade]

luckily i'm quite close with our hpal so i'm requesting it from him as we speak

[lilac stag]

Still accurate.

[tribal blade]

it really is

[cloud rover]

ill just assign it in the sheet

[steel zinc]

This kinda solved that on Demi. Just dont gather more orbs. Id rather they would implement a cdr during flying

But the boss is kinda meh the longer the tier goes

[void ocean]

haha if u guys need a translation of the latter part, let me know 😄

[tribal blade]

oh interesting idea

[tribal blade]

haha what does he say

russian swearing is a work of art

[void ocean]

its not russian ffs

[cloud rover]

I DONT WANT TO DO DMG STOP

I WANT TO PLAY THE FUCKING GAME

[void ocean]

"i fck ur mum in the p**sy, stupid game, horrible sht of a game, worst sht of a fcki game, ever, id rater play fckin Hearthstone, i swear on my mom Dragica"

[alpine wraith]

i can say it was not spanish

that im sure

[void ocean]

pilav is a Serb 😄

[cloud rover]

will alos link this VIdeo on our next Raid day

[true wind]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[raw dust]

!ㅈㅁ

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[jagged coyote]

Question for high key peeps. I see that people are running ritual forge and netherprism in higher key content. I have the option of ritual forge in my vault, but sims are showing a pretty significant decrease in DPS running them together. Is there any reason why I would want to run them or gear variation that makes the dual on use viable?

[wispy crystal]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[jagged coyote]

I know HOW and WHY, I am asking for clarification on why the sims show a down.

I'm assuming I need more crit on my gear/gems/enchants to make up for my loss of Antanae to make the dual on use sim better from just glancing at other Sub Rogue set ups

[void ocean]

Which sims r u running?

[swift tinsel]

maybe link sim for context

[shadow lance]

No downtime in the sim

So it assume you get 100% use of ur passive

So on paper, a passive is stronger

But it can't show the value you get by using forge on larger pull in the beginiing of key for example

[radiant swift]

is sub actualy better with double on use in m+ - do u get that much value even with the strong passiv option this season?

[jagged coyote]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7248grAdPQWPATEX1RvKg7

[azure mauve]

it aint a stat thing

really rogues using dobuel on use comes down to a couple of things imo

1. its the trinkets that most rogues get on prog, so naturally they will just use them in keys

thats prob the biggest factor imo lol

it might also just be a thing of the top rogues are using double on use so everyone just follows suit

[vale pine]

we don't use prism because of familarity but due to the power level

[warm marlin]

I suspect double on use is specifically better in keys than sims suggest because you’re probably pulling around your cds

And naturally it’s going to put slightly more power into your burst

[vale pine]

double on use is rly good because you can control where the damage is

[warm marlin]

Ofc some groups running double on use don’t do this and sit on forge for 4 mins at a time but

[radiant swift]

weird for sin and many other classes its often 1 on use and then 1 passive

[opal mantle]

go for it fuck sims in m+ imo

[vale pine]

double on use sims decent in m+

one on use is just less flexible

[warm marlin]

One on use is MORE flexible because you can freely choose when to send prism/flag, double on use needs to send trinkets in a specific order and send flag on cd or else things get wacky

If you hold flag for 30s now you have forge and prism up

[vale pine]

one thing thats also relevant is boss fights

[supple verge]

I've settled on lily+prism in keys as a default though I've played forge and passive with prism and it feels better sometimes

[vale pine]

you can use both on use during bosses, which speeds them up quite a bit

and bosses are a big time sinks this season in m+

[opal mantle]

how do you ever play lily over forge wtf

[supple verge]

so you can get the max stack prism for some pulls

[radiant swift]

sub realy seams to be dpecial im that regard pretty much ever other class has 1 on use

[vale pine]

yes

[charred kestrel]

Because other classes don’t rely on trinkets do help them do good numbers

[vale pine]

but also, you can just use one on use

and its fine

double on use is just if you want the extra flexibility

prism alone already allows a lot of it

because you can use it every blades

or build up to max stacks

and both is good

[radiant swift]

it realy doesnt make sub any more approachable

[radiant swift]

which is sad

[charred kestrel]

Welcome to blizz tuning.

It’s like 1960s parenting. 2 kids, ones a delinquent and gets away with everything while the good kid gets beat in the others place

[opal mantle]

which is which

[charred kestrel]

Hunters/fdk= delequint. Good kid =rogue

[opal mantle]

cause sub in m+ is super decent this szn

[charred kestrel]

More raid pov

[opal mantle]

juste worse than meta specs

raid its horseshit yeah happens

[radiant swift]

isnt sub realy good in both?

[vale pine]

i think thats a perception problem

[opal mantle]

sub is ok when you can pad on adds in fights

and disgusting in full st

in raids

[vale pine]

just because you can optimize every inch of the game, does not mean you should

[charred kestrel]

Kind of a bad analogous. Prolly shouldn’t of used it but eh

[vale pine]

you can get around with one on use just fine

[radiant swift]

how so? the playstyle is already weird and youre adding 1 more ball to the ones u already juggle

that is fair

but its always in comparsion

[vale pine]

comparison is bad

[radiant swift]

others dont have to go the extra mile

[vale pine]

because you often had ret paladin

[opal mantle]

if ure starting sub just play prism antenna and u will lose nearly no dmg

[radiant swift]

well it is

[vale pine]

which is literally a 1-2 button class

outdps rogues

who had complex rotations

[radiant swift]

its prob the reason theres 1:100 rogues to rets

[charred kestrel]

Don’t forget BM hunters

[radiant swift]

exactly what im gona do

[vale pine]

prism

antenna is very competitive

but also complicated

if you again, want to min max to the extreme

because prism, you have the stack management

and antenna, you might want to start optimizing for orbs if you min/max

maybe its worth it to run away from a orb shortly, so you get it in cooldowns ^^

my point here is, just because antenna is a passive item

does not mean it can't be complicated

[supple verge]

Collect or stand in circle

Flashbacks

[opal mantle]

im playing prism antenna (full passive not tracking orbs) (cant loot forge) pushing 18s and im turbo chilling dps in keys is rly abstract

better someone that deals 1% less dps that makes no mistake that someone that tracks everything dmgs perfectly and doesnt spam faint

[radiant swift]

also true

[vale pine]

^ exactly my point

[radiant swift]

i just cant stand these glue eaters having ego for no reason

[vale pine]

make your life easy

[opal mantle]

rogue has big strength in keys aswl, stop using black powder when there are prio targets and u have rly good prio dmg, boss dmg is very ok, youre completly unkillable also

[supple verge]

Yea I like that in my comp

Playing with arcane and either ele or bm

Sub can slide between prio and mass aoe

[opal mantle]

i dont think the spec is weak, bm should just be deleted frol the game and a little tuning to dk dh and were so fucking back

[supple verge]

Plus being immortal with elus obviously

[charred kestrel]

Sub still has prio?

[supple verge]

Yea just evisc over bp

It's not like zuul funnel or anything but it's fine

[radiant swift]

i played all of the season arcane and got shittalked for not having crazy aoe dmg

[opal mantle]

u lose what 4% dmg (bm mogs you in overall anyways) and win 20s every pack

[radiant swift]

pug life is crazy

[opal mantle]

started pushing with arcane this week this is so funny

had a feral full padding every pack flaming me yesterday on psf

[supple verge]

It's nice but you do kind of need someone doing some overall especially when you and the arcane are dry

[opal mantle]

ppl are so clueless

[radiant swift]

its always the same - then i tell them lets play the key out and see what happens

[opal mantle]

u rarely have sub and arcane in the same key tbh

[radiant swift]

and then pack by pack its not as funny anymore

[supple verge]

Yea my group of friends plays sub arcane so that's the only thing I really focus on, but in pugs you are right I don't often play with them

[radiant swift]

also true the small shit has still to die

[opal mantle]

my overalls on mage are rly low on most keys but i dont rly care lol

[radiant swift]

u can do pretty good overalls on arcane

[opal mantle]

overall is such a useless number sometimes

[radiant swift]

cds every 1.1min is pretty good

[supple verge]

Some seasons I legit have to spend 30 minutes setting up details filters

Pulls with non elite mobs

[radiant swift]

big diffrenxe is if the tank is pulling mobs on boss

[vale pine]

priority damage is high even if you play standard without evis over bp

funnel is kinda meh

[supple verge]

Make some specs just look so much better than they actually are

[opal mantle]

arcane was played in every top key for months for a reason

doing 3m less overall than the elem sham

[radiant swift]

how come? that extra dmg that u % whise get on the main mob? if i understand correctly most aoe is that 60% spread anyway

[vale pine]

you keep using coup in aoe

and most of your damage is in coup/secret

so using bp or evis does not make that big of a diffrence

[radiant swift]

dont even see bp that far up

[supple verge]

The other kind of nice thing I was thinking about is how nicely sub slots into meta comps this season

[radiant swift]

more that what was it called nimble fury?

[vale pine]

you essentially get 5-10% st for similar aoe loss

nimble helps yes

[supple verge]

It's pretty reliable to get access to skyfury and one or two more raid buffs

[vale pine]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[vale pine]

but in aoe BP starts to come out ahead

at 4+

[radiant swift]

pretty straitgh forward

cant wait to show them hunters

[opal mantle]

yeah the issue is that ure just worst in every aspect than dh dk bm

so you will not get invited in a key ever

[tawny eagle]

!buglist

[opal mantle]

thats why i gave up

[supple verge]

Ya that is definitely a problem

Feels slightly easier to get keys this season than some others, but I'm only like 3375 so pretty low at this point

Sometimes rogue just doesn't feel like it has a home at all, when it's wizard comp especially

[opal mantle]

i nearly 3k6 i can sit in dornogal for five hours and not enter anything

and ppl ive been pushing with have all tilted and stoped

my szn is done

[tropic nimbus]

Regular Evis hits like a noodle your BP will do more prio dmg unless you have coup procs

[opal mantle]

pretty sure evis deals more st than bp

[tropic nimbus]

You aren’t understanding

[opal mantle]

no

[shadow lance]

You're not explaining well tbh

How BP will deal more prio?

[tropic nimbus]

First pull in priory you aren’t evis the fist mini

[opal mantle]

what if i am

[tropic nimbus]

I mean you can

[opal mantle]

usually i do weird not opti things where i start eviscing after the first two dances

but i feel like im gaining prio this way

[shadow lance]

You obviously gain prio

Is it worth? It's another statement

[opal mantle]

well my bm created his character specifically to pad on those archers

it would be very rude to deny him that

same thing for arak first pull or gambit first pull

[shadow lance]

This is the way I see the thing

If it makes your group gains time, it's worth

I pref deal X % less overall if a whole pack die in the same time

Or at least important target than allow us to chain pull

[opal mantle]

well obviously

[shadow lance]

But gain is also minimal so just the ShadowStrike part will do the prio damages

[opal mantle]

ofc if i have dh mage i will spam bp

but usually when u have rogue in ur dh spot

so prio becomes lower

trying to fix that

[shadow lance]

Sure, I agree with that

Should consider assa if you need prio in comp

[opal mantle]

assa is so unreal dogshit honestly

disgust me every time i play it

tank dps in pure st is just

uuuh

[shadow lance]

If you premade with your tank, bring adds on boss

Constantly

[opal mantle]

yeah but the tank just HAS to link on some keys

there is no other play

and every key has its single target boss where you will expose yourself

[dusk stone]

20% miss chance on antenna is correct yeah?

this is compared to and simmed against pacemaker same ilvl

[shadow lance]

Chain pull isn't an issue when playing assa

But yeah, gambit, for exemple, is a pain

[opal mantle]

uuuh how

u lose a cd in the void basically

every time

[shadow lance]

Yes and no

[opal mantle]

wdym no

its often good for they key i cant complain but im just losing a vanish i couldve used to reapply dots in a pack

or one shot an add phase on a boss

or funnel even more on a boss

etc etc

[shadow lance]

Damages doesn't come from envenom but from bleeds

[wispy crystal]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[shadow lance]

So spending time to put bleeds shoul'nt bother

[opal mantle]

thats why i vant to vanish

[shadow lance]

But yes, it goes faster with vanish

[opal mantle]

oh ok i see

yeah but u still lose a lot of time and bleeds

[shadow lance]

Yh, it feels bad

But you win a couple of envenom

So not that big

ofc you prefer coming from stealth

But not worth slowing the whole key

[wispy crystal]

Hi guys, I'm using prism and lily. Does that mean I press prism on 16 stacks, even if I don't have Shadowblades up?

[opal mantle]

yeah thats the issue

[opal mantle]

u never press a trinket without shadowblades

[wispy crystal]

So alternate between lily and 16 stacks of prism.

All done inside Shadowblades window right?

[opal mantle]

yes

[wispy crystal]

First go - lily
Next go 16 stacks - prism
Next next go - lily

Okay so keep rotating between both trinkets during Shadowblades window yea?

I need a new prism, still using a champion one 😭

[swift tinsel]

you won't have 16+ for 1.5min blades

[wispy crystal]

Then how?

[swift tinsel]

so you'll lily - lily - prism - lily

etc

bc it stacks at a fixed interval

[wispy crystal]

Oh right okay makes sense now

2x lily for 1x prism

0mins - lily
1.5mins - lily
3nins - 16 stacks prisms

[dusk stone]

have you tested antenna vs pacemaker at all? i'm seeing some weird shit where pacemaker is somehow better antenna at same ilvl @ 20% miss rate