subtlety

[bleak night]

fortunately that fight is actually a first boss in disguise so doesnt even matter

[hollow spear]

Yeah I'm not depressed for long usually

[wispy crystal]

LOL! So true

Why is assas and sub pure ST so crappy

Even on soul Hunters we can't top as well

Get outcleaved by DKs / Mages

The only time I'm top on ST is when the guild brings in their ilevel 700 alts

Every other pull is red/blue/green/brown/pink on details 😭

[lilac stag]

Soul hunters is kill times

We’re “fine” there, but get cucked hard by last intermission

[torn shell]

so uh, do we need to be behind the mobs?

[vale pine]

the real reason

because thats what the dev team wants

you could argue its because of burst

[hazy breach]

Well sub is still really good on damage amps and on cleave

[vale pine]

but there are other classes with better general tuning and burst

[hazy breach]

So theyve been cautious of giving sub ST too since they know well be strong on those other bosses where 1:30s line up perfectly

(hunters and DKs get to be good at both though for some reason )

[vale pine]

^

[bleak night]

[vale pine]

my point

[bleak night]

class is wrong color

gg

[vale pine]

its not that

its just inconsistency in execution

you can find valid reaosns for it as long as you ignore certian data points

but in academics

its most of the time not reasonable with such a small data set

also i would argue, outliners disprove the theory

maybe the theory is wrong, and its just randomness in the dataset

due to a slower pacing or absence of balancing without a big focus on a perfect outcome

in the end every tier since DF is "Classes/Specs are the most balanced they ever been"

or at least thats a common phrase you hear on podcasts about the game

[sinful depot]

what we reckon..

I know people either playing CB build in key or thistle tea build

I notice dbl on-use trinkets dont sim as high in dungeon slice but I am calling sus.

I seem to do my highest damage with Rotten build, dbl one-us and cold blood build.

What does everyone else think?

[vale pine]

both tea and cb is good, its personal decision

[sinful depot]

(I have all trinkets on mythic track)

[vale pine]

double on use is for control

forge and prism is rly strong

[wispy crystal]

AHH guess it's really a tuning thing then. Top ST and top AOE. Life is never fair.

Oh well, just got to hope midnight brings better balance and rogues have a spot at the top of the charts on ST again

[vale pine]

rotten is not too far off, some just run it because it was good in s2 or because it sims higher

[sinful depot]

rotten seems to slap for me

i notice in the top 50 rogues, most take the +15% finisher talent when running thistle tea build

they never run rotten with thistle tea build

[tall oriole]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[sinful depot]

but most who play CB build, take rotten

[vale pine]

you overthink it

^^

[sinful depot]

well im pushing 😄

it matter when i'm tryna time these keys as minority class 😄

gotta keep up with those DK's

or try to

[wispy crystal]

On soul Hunters once the boss starts spreading out, our damage falls off heavily

[vale pine]

the diffrence is low enough to make all of them good

[lilac stag]

Rotton sucks. Dbl on use is fun in keys. Vigor is more enjoyable. Tea is whatever. .

[sinful depot]

yeah i still with dbl-one use and rotten

yeah when i say tea i mean vigor build obv

[lilac stag]

You know they come back together right

[bleak night]

not with my tanks

[sinful depot]

rotton defo doesnt suck jsut gotta remember to use FoK's after symbols before going into noremal pewpew

[bleak night]

[wispy crystal]

Not with my tanks either

[hollow forum]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[sinful depot]

(in AOE)

[wispy crystal]

They pull them apart at the weirdest times when I have all CDs up and running

[lilac stag]

Rotton sucks. We don’t need it. Not at this gear level

[sinful depot]

i dunno bro

i think with dbl on-use it's just meta

[bleak night]

rotten is a rotten talent

[sinful depot]

cb build

[lilac stag]

Meta. Kek

You spread FW so easily it’s pointless to lock your sod timings

but you do you

[sinful depot]

doesnt lock anything

im tryna help you 😄

[lilac stag]

You’re casting Sod to hit FW before dance.

That’s locking it in and sod actually our limiting cd in keys

Where you can be more fluid moving sod in dance

im tryna help you 😄

You asked what people think

Why ask if you don’t actually want others perspective

[hollow spear]

I tried both and it doesn't really matter for me

Without the rotten I have one thing less to think about tho

[fast panther]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[velvet hawk]

do you guys use mana oil or whetstone?

[vale pine]

whestones usually

mana oil + wax is technically similar or even marginal better

[velvet hawk]

ooo gotcha

also, why cant i find bubbling wax on the ah? xDD

[vale pine]

give me a sec

[velvet hawk]

is that something i have to farm

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=78877/bless-these-homes

the start quest

if you haven't done it

[velvet hawk]

youre a saint

[vale pine]

but i think its a lot of effort for probably no real noticable diffrence

[velvet hawk]

oo so just stick to whetstones?

[vale pine]

i personally will ^^

[lilac stag]

I’ve never farmed wax and have plenty from pickpocket strike macro

[shy flare]

Anyone have a stand alone shadow craft visual tracker? I have the sound one and that is nice but need something to warn me ahead of time

[sinful depot]

I dont under the concept of locking you just press FOK after symbols if there are lots of mobs without find weakness .

[last gate]

should do dance symb on collectors in araz?

[lilac stag]

You don’t storm in dance

[last gate]

or just auto attack

[last gate]

bruh

[lilac stag]

Just stab or auto

[maiden oar]

i just had a premonition

im going to be 8/8ing my m+ vault every week and never see the vers mast ring again

[warm marlin]

boe time

one up for 2mil right now!

[fast panther]

should ur 2nd dance/symbols be sent before your cold blood secteq in opener?

[warm marlin]

what a steal

[maiden oar]

im too poor i just spent 2mil on the midnight epic edition

maybe after some sales

[warm marlin]

you send cb sectec whenever it comes up, always press the second symbols before it, refresh dance when it ends

[fast panther]

roger

legendary comms ty

[maiden oar]

ive never actually done sales before idk if that will become a reasonable purchase for me

or if ill wanna stockpile all my money for midnight

[last gate]

agil > ring

[maiden oar]

bc i assume consumables/crafts will be insanely priccey in midnight

[last gate]

😄

[warm marlin]

do you know approximately how hard HP goes for sales

[maiden oar]

my upgrades rn are any wrist/myth track soul hunter boots/myth track forge/sockets/m+ ring

[maiden oar]

nope!

[warm marlin]

we had a 8/8 buyer most weeks in farm and made around 4mil per raider

[maiden oar]

holy moly

we are just doing 6/8 sales for now starting next wk

but ok yeah i wont worry about it then ill be rich

[warm marlin]

4mil total over the whole season

to be clear

so 2mil for a ring is a big investment

[maiden oar]

i just lucked into a boe which is why i bought midnight with gold

oh ok

nvm

i misread

[warm marlin]

itll probably be a bit higher this season because the dimmy mount is way better than gally one

but idk

[maiden oar]

people will also want shoes

u can buy shoes w dinar right

[warm marlin]

assumed

[maiden oar]

i think thats like a rough jastor diamond equivalnet

[warm marlin]

but there were good dinar items last tier too

[maiden oar]

yea

[warm marlin]

dimmy loot being kinda ass is a bit of a bad sign

[maiden oar]

hopefully mount carries

i traded the mount for a curio because im never going to use that thing

i love the shackled urzhul best mount in the game

if i get the mount again im going to just trade it to someone who wants it more i dont mind being last guy w/ the mount hehe

[void hound]

new dh spec looks fun

[maiden oar]

@warm marlin i plan to start doing heroic sales every week also for more gold do u know how quickly the cuts u get go down over the course of the tier

i assume ill be getting paid less a few months from now but idk how bad it is

[warm marlin]

i would guess pretty fast

[maiden oar]

ok i need to gear an alt

[warm marlin]

but i dont do them really

[maiden oar]

2 sales per week...

ah ok

[warm marlin]

friend did 7? 6/8H sales a couple weeks ago and got like 300k i think

[maiden oar]

ic

i did 1 8/8 sale this week and got 280k

so i felt like that was pretty good but idk how long that lasts

[warm marlin]

not my expertise

[maiden oar]

i want to be able to buy boes next tier

[wintry holly]

There's no pre-fight scumbaggery for netherprism is there? Just SoD?

[vale pine]

!cheese

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[vale pine]

netherprism does reset with encounter start

so you can't do a cheese

[wintry holly]

Thought as much, cheers as always @vale pine !

Is there a list of these commandfs btw?

[vale pine]

yes, there is a list pinned

[wintry holly]

Hero! Thanks!

[vale pine]

prepull = cheese

[void hound]

!list

[mystic bough]

list is in pins

[last gate]

its always the worst raider in guild that trash talk

idk why its like this xd

[feral radish]

!log

[sinful depot]

Anyone got sim script for the diff races?

!race

[sinful depot]

In a key you want to use SOD well before pull timer for 2 supercharged points. Then again when countdown reaches 0 (no bubble) for 4 super charged points.

[sullen hare]

#tc-research message

[versed swift]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[vale pine]

charges iirc reset with key start

[lilac stag]

They’re saying fire it off at the start. Since you’re likely moving to mobs

[vale pine]

if you use 2 charges

[lilac stag]

at least they what I think they’re trying to express

[vale pine]

you need 50 secs

before you get it back

seems sus

[lilac stag]

The first 2 charges stay (unless it changed this week).

You’re sitting on 3 charges of sod. Fire one off when key starts

[vale pine]

oh

first 2 charges also stay with key start

okay, i thought they did not when i tested

must have missremembered

makes sense then

[lilac stag]

I haven’t don’t rogue keys this week, but it’s like a boss pull, or was. The two stay.

[vale pine]

perfect

[sinful depot]

Yeah 2 Before and 2 on start for 4 super charges

But send first before pull timer to make sure u have only need 1 to recharge whilst u gather mobs etc

[mental kettle]

HAS ANYONE

[scenic plover]

are there any special things to know as sub on mythic dimmy?

[warm marlin]

if you dont have autumn you need to fly good

and cast fast

[scenic plover]

i mean i had autumn on nexus so i will see if i get it again ^^

only got a 60 but atleast hes dead

[mental kettle]

im about to lose my mind on soul hunters

progress

god help me

[warm marlin]

p1 boss damage mostly doesnt matter, kill the add that needs it, kill the important adds in p2, big burst p3 and lock in

[scenic plover]

[scenic plover]

i just always target the middle boss and shadowstep on him

[mental kettle]

yeah im gonna do that from now on but honestly

[scenic plover]

do i target boss or add on pull?

[mental kettle]

i mean like people not doing mechanics

and i died to rot 5 pulls in a row

[scenic plover]

yeah but cant really change that. it is what it is

[mental kettle]

from soaking the soul

xd

or like 4 pulls idk

fraility wasnt tracked

[warm marlin]

technically adds but its way easier to just strike boss and walk to your side

if you have eles they will just explode the first add set anyway

[scenic plover]

we do

kk

[lilac stag]

Pray for your range to have the ability to dispel and dps

[mental kettle]

i cant bro

[lilac stag]

If you want to be depressed look at how fast some of the kill times are.

[maiden oar]

i strike the add then flip my camera 180 degrees and target + flag boss

idk if its correct but i feel cool

[mental kettle]

our fractilius reclear

was 2 mins slower than tp logs

top

[solid hatch]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sweet turret]

!spreadsheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

i was doing this but it was too hard

or at least it was annoying

[maiden oar]

hehe yea it is annoying

but i feel cool doing it

[karmic harbor]

ressing without symbols charges

i love this game

[warm marlin]

as long as you move your little legs after striking you can strike boss and walk out

[chrome palm]

Strike add -> click boss and flag -> proceed to have him parry rupture 2 times

[maiden oar]

thats true

why can that guy parry

[chrome palm]

Big yet nimble hands

[mental kettle]

damn your kill times are giga fast

[solid hatch]

So in my burst I use all my dance stacks and then ill wait with my cds for the next burst phase or do I use sth of my cds also in my downphase?

[rain stratus]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[grand summit]

Do we know anything about the Midnight chnages or is sub in the dark?

[vale pine]

#midnight-subtlety

[scenic plover]

idk, we dont have that much damage and usually take more healers than others so i am surprised by that

[tight monolith]

will rank 8 be 729 ilvl or 730 on tues/wednesday? if they keep it strictly 6 ilvl its obv max rank 729 ilvl but hoping for 723-727-730. (speaking turbo boost wise, I might be better off searching the library of wowhead).

ending the max rank on 730 instead of 729 for the expansion just seem more likely or?

its mainly juicing my dagger I am dreaming about

[orchid rampart]

in Keysis it best to use CD's almost everytime they are off cd? except if packs 20% or hold for next pack?

[limpid sage]

Pretty sure turbo boost is 21st with dinars the coming reset?

[warm marlin]

we get the 2 upgrade tracks this upcoming reset and dinars the 21st

[tidal marsh]

What do you mean "more likely" lmao

Blizzard does not give a shit about it being a rounder number

[void ocean]

Ye, crest uncap is also on 21st

[strange heath]

so is cold blood just hard better than TT in m+

[shrewd lantern]

Depends on dungeon

[hushed hatch]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lost dirge]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[hushed hatch]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[lost dirge]

guys when i use black powder combo

[strange heath]

i want dark brew build back

[chrome palm]

My only thing is that the cloak is already 730

Would be somewhat odd to have cloak at 730 and everything 1 ilvl low but idk

[crystal atlas]

Is there a WA that shows how many Globals I did in Shadow Dance similar to DKs Pillar of Frost

[torn shell]

!log In the opener of this FG, why does Chirainrogue's ST hit for 5.4M on the shredder while mine only hits for 1.5M

[torn shell]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lilac stag]

723/727 for crafted
727/730 for mythic items

[wispy crystal]

Do you guys use crippling poison for Mythic Araz?

Or atrophic poison?

[lilac stag]

Atrophic

Adds fall over

[sullen yarrow]

what is wrong with this

and why

halls of atonement 18

im annoyed i cant do good dps

this is so bad

[sullen yarrow]

any good player here

[slate lantern]

Send a log details ss is useless

[left ledge]

Atrophic literally does nothing on the boss

You can put it on or use crippling. Doesn’t really matter at this point, if you guys don’t nuke adds just use crippling

[cyan saddle]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility >= Critical Strike >>> Haste

[cyan saddle]

im coming from sin for m araz, i have ~22k crit and mastery. Will this be ok?

and do we just not use sstorm and bp at all?

[ornate lake]

It's normal. Sub rogue was good early in the season now it's dogshit compared to other classes. Poor scaling

[flat marsh]

is there something really weird going on with prism, that clicking can proc prism?

i just aggrod something by clicking on it without casting anything

[shrewd lantern]

autoattack?

[shrewd lantern]

Feels literally fine theres no scaling cope

adds in raid will die faster so you cant flurry as hard

[keen dome]

Just play with worse people

[flat marsh]

no i was just chilling in stealth, clicking something thats like 30 yards away and it proc'd on it

[shrewd lantern]

#subtlety message case in point, 12 db pug

I feel i messed up like 2 packs probably could have done at least 8m.

[shrewd lantern]

idk link combat log

[keen dome]

It's the one weird trick to always be the best

[shrewd lantern]

why blizz gotta nerf pre prism shit

[eternal abyss]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[ornate lake]

I was talking about keys sorry

[keen dome]

Even easier to solve!

Just find people who can't aoe. Bam

[shrewd lantern]

even if you find people that can

you just kill the shit first

me when the fdk complains about i murdered the pack before his cds finished

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

There's a pull in dB where I can hit 50m and it rules

Everyone else can go afk

[shrewd lantern]

lmao which one

i been getting tiny peen tanks in db

[keen dome]

After boss 1, the cathedral

[shrewd lantern]

they grab at most one pack with the mini

[keen dome]

We go back door with door pack, miniboss, all packs inside

It's glorious

[shrewd lantern]

fucks forcing me to cap at 40m

💢

[keen dome]

It can be spicy but everything dies so quickly

[shrewd lantern]

rip the prism prekey

[keen dome]

Only done it on a 12 though

[shrewd lantern]

i cant go into first pull of fg or gambit

with another 66k agi

[keen dome]

Alas

I do miss the first pull buff if trinketing

But prism is good otherwise

[shrewd lantern]

im not a forge gamer

so yeah first pull kinda anemic

[keen dome]

Same

[shrewd lantern]

theres few bigger dopamine hits though

[keen dome]

Can still beat some pugs on big pulls though

Like eco

[shrewd lantern]

than the 18 stack prism gigapull with 4 coup casts in one dance

yeah im usually first on first pack of eco

im just not gapping by a mile

[keen dome]

Ye

[shrewd lantern]

i want a myth forge to fuck around with

antenna is nice just slightly troll when i get 4 procs as pack is dead

[fossil forge]

Fuck 4 bro get 6 coup hits

[shrewd lantern]

can you save a disorient prekey

[fossil forge]

Yep

Doesnt disappear after death so u can prestack in Raid

[shrewd lantern]

i mean i do in raid

watching people freak over conquer chunking their hp

while ours barely moves

[fossil forge]

i sectech random add b4 every dungeon

[shrewd lantern]

is peak

[fossil forge]

Elusivness gaming

[shrewd lantern]

also might have killed 2 ranged with soulhunters tether

everyone was splitting on darksorrow bad jump

so panic cloaked

[keen dome]

What classes were they

[shrewd lantern]

spriest and pally

[keen dome]

Nothing of value lost

[shrewd lantern]

is any ranged value lost

[keen dome]

Warlocks because they're cool

[gray falcon]

I need an adult!!!

my brain is causing me to only do 4mil in adungeon and it makes me cry

[shrewd lantern]

link a log

[gray falcon]

i dont have a log but i got details lol

[shrewd lantern]

that doesnt say much

also how much rest of the group did is relevant

hence value of logs

[keen dome]

Also, the dungeon, the key level, etc. Logs are infinitely more valuable for feedback

[gray falcon]

i get it

[shrewd lantern]

like yeah i link details of a random db i do for vault

says absolutely nothing

[gray falcon]

i will do a key then log it

[keen dome]

You need to push Black Powder more.

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[shrewd lantern]

0 context besides you didnt press bp

[hollow fox]

Wait, also inside dances?

[shrewd lantern]

like in my gear i can probably do way more than 4m in priory never hitting bp

but context matters

[keen dome]

I believe so, yes. But you need to strike as builder

[hollow fox]

That’s fine, I think I just realized I’m a dumbass

[keen dome]

Don't worry, I constantly forget to push BP and just evis stuff half the time

[hollow fox]

Pulling 6.5-7.5 myself but with bp never pressed in dance, like ever

I thought bp didn’t proc coup or something

[keen dome]

It doesn't

But it does more damage over Evis being flurried at 4+ targets.

[hollow fox]

Experimenting in next keys it is then

Galaxybrain moment

[versed swift]

reject bp

embrace evis only

[keen dome]

agreed

[versed swift]

2% overall pad dmg vs 6% more prio dmg

easiest trade Ive made all season

[shrewd lantern]

counter argument

fuck the ret's overall

[hollow spear]

If evis actually cleaved on the more important targets too, I'd do it

But unfortunately it just seems to be rng and it can also hit the shitters

[ivory vigil]

BP adds 2% to overall damage? so like 150k avg dps during a dungeon?

[wild vine]

No

Just try it

[versed swift]

counter argument, I dont want to think about 2 finishers and their conditions

[limpid sage]

this

makes you not backstab soup for 30s after everything but miniboss is dead

also you don't get to make the mistake of spamming BP with the big beetle guards nearby in arakara

[opal mantle]

yea half of the packs in m+ you should not press bp

i dont think there is any pack on arak where you press bp

maybe the first one

[limpid sage]

ya first one I would

maybe the venom casters

[gray falcon]

ok b ois i am back

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tZk9BLRmq4vPKQFY

tell me how bad i truly am

i will look and probably figure it out to but f it maybe it will help somebody else

[limpid sage]

This segment is pretty cursed

it's your first go

you send rupture into immediate dance, meaning you lose 1 gcd inside dance

[opal mantle]

press shadowstrike waaaay more

[limpid sage]

then you use shadowblades while gcd isn't off cd and send sectec without supercharging it + coldblooding a backstab in dance

ye you need to press shadowstrike over backstab in dance

[gray falcon]

kk

[limpid sage]

it's good to backstab first global in dance (if you don't already have full cp), but I wouldn't bother with it just yet

it's almost no difference and you'll prob just confuse yourself

[opal mantle]

u lose a lot by not having good trinkets also ig

also you should try to play tea/vigor and finality

[limpid sage]

ye I think that's the way forward as well

[opal mantle]

not necessarly better but can feel way better and so you can deal more dmg

[limpid sage]

cb is extra mental load

tea lets you focus on the core of sub

[opal mantle]

yeah and its better sometimes

(always ?)

[gray falcon]

so SS>flag>rupture>fok> shadow blades> secret then SS till coup and BP?

not fox shuriken storm

[opal mantle]

not shuriken storm

[gray falcon]

thats right i will be in dance

[limpid sage]

not always

[opal mantle]

this is the way

[limpid sage]

but it's way easier and it's such a small diff

[opal mantle]

if you press dance u should instantly press backstab after it to not lose a dance gcd

[opal mantle]

idk i always play tea now i dont feel like im doing less dmg at all and i can perma faint its incredible

i can apply rupture on whole packs way easier

i can not feel homeless during dances off cd

so much upsides

[ivory vigil]

you macro it to dance right?

[opal mantle]

yea

[ivory vigil]

single target you still run CB right?

[opal mantle]

yeah of course

im not that much of a cook

[keen dome]

If I recall, Tea is a bit more AoE / energy and Blood is a bit more prio / ST in keys but it's personal preference, I'd guess.

I prefer blood 'cos I like the big sectecs

[barren haven]

Hello there Rogue Fam,

i didn't find anything in the search, so i just blow my question.

I observe that - sometimes and somehow - (i think when a m+ key or something starts), on first pull after using the dance+symbols the 4p doesn't procc. after 2nd dance+symbols it procs as usual.

is this something we know about and is there a workaround if so?

i mean i'm at max stacks before coup would procc, but it doesn't even when i spam like 4-5 shadowstrikes

[crystal oasis]

Do you mean the reset doesnt proc or you sit at coup nearly ready for ages?

[haughty rose]

adding to the CB vs tea:

Does tea generally sim worse than it should for some reason or is it gear dependend? Because CB always sims about 1% better than tea

[fossil forge]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[limpid sage]

gear dependant

cb loses value the more crit you have

donno if tea loses value the more mastery you have

donno if it's flat % mastery or multiplicative that it gives

[limpid sage]

ok but where big number

[opal mantle]

same i think

irrelevant

i dont notice big differences when i play it

i do better overalls with tea even

on dawn

[fossil forge]

Sounds like a energy managing problem 🤓

[limpid sage]

not irrelevant when you consider that big number good and small number bad

[lilac stag]

Clearly you need more haste for CB build

[karmic harbor]

100 sub rogue parses on wcl for floodgate 17, 1200 for frost dk

very cool

[tidal marsh]

Those poor Frost DKs

Where is the DK crit raid buff

[sour forum]

Question, does dimi have multiple hooks for shadow step in p1?

[opal mantle]

nah

[opal mantle]

yea u can probably play whatever both have upsides

i made my choice

[worthy pulsar]

is it worth holding coup for non-flag shadow dance window in aoe?

[fossil forge]

The diff between cb and tea is very small i doubt u can do more damage with tea

[tepid trellis]

no

on AoE in general you dont hold anything

anything being coups

[tepid trellis]

just crit natty, skill issue ong

[tall girder]

how important is getting pally buff on mythic nk

[alpine wraith]

not super important in the grand scheme but helps

[tall girder]

ill try askin for it but i wont beg for it

[opal mantle]

more energy means more fluidity in cycling dances

sometimes with cb im fucked cause i lose uptime for some reason and i lose a dance

just an exemple

[lilac stag]

Makes feint usage way easier outside of dance.

[opal mantle]

yeah thats the main reason why i play tea

but in terms of pure overall dps i feel like its not even losing

[lilac stag]

Vigor is just qol

You’re not imo

@tribal blade you’re still vigor enjoyer yea?

[tribal blade]

hell yeah

[lilac stag]

All the confirmation bias I need

[tribal blade]

i just really enjoy the feedback of having x2 the energy pool

to me it fixes a glaring problem sub has had since the massive rework

when they changed storm energy from 35 to 45

and just bricked our energy economy outside dance

[lilac stag]

just wait for strike energy cost to brick it more

[tribal blade]

the only issue i have with running vigor and tea is accidently proccing tea, which is seriously annoying

[lilac stag]

it really does need a switch but oh well

[tribal blade]

it does really help my mental playing vigor

[opal mantle]

this was the worst patch ever made yeah

[tribal blade]

yeah it's really stupid

all the rogue specs who use tea use it for the mastery

and then they do that

gj blizz

but that's solved in midnight

[opal mantle]

rly ? cool

[tribal blade]

yeah they removed the mastery component from tea

so it's just for energy now

so auto proccing is fine now

to me it does create this weird situation where you have a buttload of energy economy on rogue put into 3 talents in one corner of the tree

[opal mantle]

oh fuck

i thought they were removing auto use

theyre just removing the talent XD

[tribal blade]

hehe yeah it will only give energy now

which i think is a good thing tbh

having a spell do 2 completely different things at once is kinda toxic

that would have been a good choice node right there

either you could choose tea that gives mastery or tea that gives energy

boom

but iirc they attached mastery to tea to make it more appealing, because tea as a talent is so incredibly boring and begs the question why they even thought it was a good idea in the first place

[limpid sage]

might be cooking actually

extra highroll potential + short kill timers might be tea angle for parse whoring

[opal mantle]

yeah true

[opal mantle]

wait i was always talking about m+

im never playing tea in raid ever

[lilac stag]

As opposed to scattered all over the sub tree

[limpid sage]

me neither, but maybe it's an angle

[worthy pulsar]

if unseen blade is at 3 stacks, do you sort of wait a little bit after shadowstrike to see if you get coup?

[limpid sage]

btw anyone know the rate of which forge falls off?

[night sparrow]

It's linear iirc

[limpid sage]

ye but to what point?

[night sparrow]

the buff lasts 30sec so -3.33% of the max value per second I guess

But I'd let theory crafters answer it more precisely

[lusty epoch]

what you mean wait?

you get the last proc or you don't, and you play according to it

[worthy pulsar]

maybe is my WA. i feel like theres like a tiny delay after SS to know i get a blade or not

[night sparrow]

You see instantly if Unseen blades proc, so you have 1s of gcd to react if you need to use filler or fnisher

[lusty epoch]

in raids too? i get delay in dornogal

[night sparrow]

I personally use Coup the moment it is available to avoid wasting Unseen blades procs, but never checked if that's the optimal way to do so, but sounds pretty logic to me

[night sparrow]

fr, Dornogal had a 0.5 or so delay on all spells

[lusty epoch]

yeah when i want to train dummies i sometimes go to pandaria lol

[night sparrow]

Like I use a Dance+Symbols macro (DONT BAN ME FROM THE DISCORD PLEASE) that switch to Backstab on the stealth/dance bar, in raids and dungeons I double tap this keybind without problems, in Dornogal if I'm too fast it uses symbols twice cause the game considers I'm not in stealth yet. But only in Dornogal

[lusty epoch]

ban this dude! ☝️

[night sparrow]

hahaha

[worthy pulsar]

ah shit that must be it. yeah in dorno. forgot dummies can be laggy at times lol

[lusty epoch]

yeah try going to another city! might be easier

[opal mantle]

i never dummy in dorno too much lag

[lusty epoch]

it's fine to use that macro if you have separate keybind for only symbols as well

[night sparrow]

Yeah yeah I do ofc, 3 binds : Macro Dance+symbols / Dance / Symbols

I started sub back in S2 and found this way pretty comfy, played Sin the whole S1 and the APM required is ... what you expect from sin spec lol

But i'll swap that when midnight comes out

[lusty epoch]

you do what's easiest for you bro

[limpid sage]

https://tenor.com/view/tata-mpo-gif-15942038246373310601

[night sparrow]

When I started sub and sasked here is it okay to use that macro ? Everybody said no don't do that !!

[lusty epoch]

yeah because it's a bad habit

[night sparrow]

Then I got 2 mp from 2 different guys saying "I use that macro but I don't say it in public because I don't wanna get ban from the rogue discord" lmfao

made me laugh af haha

[lusty epoch]

LOL

[hazy breach]

Its not like thats gonna get you banned lmao, youre just losing dps

[autumn pawn]

losing a lot of dps

[night sparrow]

Yeah this macro is kinda a meme here ikr

How a lot ? oO

Like I still press dance + symbols between 2 spells so I don't really see how I lose dps tbf

[limpid sage]

I mean you could probably just make it "/castsequence reset=6 Symbols of Death, null" instead of 2 sec and it's fine?

[vale pine]

could be worse, could macro cold blood and secret^^

[hazy breach]

The second set every blades

You want them to be seperate

Because if you have them macrod you have to either delay dance or not supercharge sectech

[night sparrow]

I'll correct that when midnight comes out, at the end I have a useless keybind if i press dance and symbols separatly yeah

[hazy breach]

Fairly sure dance+sod is worse

[night sparrow]

I macro but still have dance and symbols on separated key,

[limpid sage]

oh then there's no issue

as long as you use them

[night sparrow]

I DO THAT TOO MUHAHAHAHA. Have a SecTec+CB button, and a SecTec only button

[lusty epoch]

bro xD

[night sparrow]

Will I get ban 🥸 🥸

[vale pine]

thats the smart way

[limpid sage]

ye it's not a dps loss to have them

it's a dps loss to use them instead of separately

like Ryldd even made a post in tc-subtlety about the importance of macroing stuff together

[wispy crystal]

for Mythic Araz, is your raid leader making you guys soak the 1st big echo spawn?

it seems to tie in at the 30s mark where we have CDs all lined up for the add spawn. And running off to soak is like a killer on DPS

any suggestions for the soak?

[limpid sage]

ignore raid lead

[night sparrow]

No I asked to soak the second, was soaking first at the beginning. And I use a macro to shadowstep on my RL who soaks 2nd also at the very last frame to avoid losing too much dmg (still cant manage to parse on this boss lel)

[limpid sage]

no but if you have to soak first and you don't have melee soak as the 1st one, then I'd just send on pull

[wispy crystal]

yeah i thought of stepping last minute, ill just ask if its possible for range DPS to soak 1st

and then melee soak 2nd

[night sparrow]

Our strat is most of the raid soaks the first one, then the second are for the immuns like 6 or 7 people

You gotta use cloak after the soak tho, you still get the debuff if you use it before it hits you iirc

[limpid sage]

1 sec before soak goes through and you're good

don't ask me why it is like that

[night sparrow]

Oh alright I'll do that then ! Even tho we're locking ID rn, I'll know that for the reclears

Oh so you're saying that 2 sec before doesn't work but 1sec do ?

[limpid sage]

yes exactly

[opal mantle]

this boss is so shit to parse

[night sparrow]

lmfao wtf

spoghetto wow usual coding lul

[limpid sage]

it's like that for other immunities as well I think?

[night sparrow]

I'll ask my guildmates, ni idea

no*

[wispy crystal]

ill just request raid leader if he can put melee DPS to soak 2nd instead.

range can soak 1st and still DPS the boss + adds

if melee soak 1st = our DPS goes down the drain

[limpid sage]

at least heard one of our hunters complain that it's not doable and then tried turtling 1 sec before and it seemed to work

[night sparrow]

alright thx for the info

[latent finch]

Cloak 1sec is just stronger then the rest. There is nearly every season a mechanic where just the first seconds works. Its even in the tooltip even if its not clear

[lusty epoch]

i fucking hate that we need to cheese with sectec...
Had the worst rng pull ever on our first soul hunters kill because of it, my second sectec in blades hit with 2 stacks of flawless form 💀 0 coups in the whole blades window... from 25mil on a regular pull to 15 mil dps and gray log. thank you blizzard

i might be a crybaby but shit like this ruins the game

[night sparrow]

Dopamine truly hits when you get 25 stacks for the second sec tec :> tho happens like 1 out of 50 burst

[lusty epoch]

yeah like sub is more rng now than outlaw in legion

hate it

[latent finch]

sub is around 4% rng which is not that high compared to some of the real gamba specs

[night sparrow]

Prob idk :> haven't played since Legion and came back for tww

[lusty epoch]

nah i'm just kidding, outlaw legion was in another league

[night sparrow]

Oh alright

[lusty epoch]

but it feels so bad to get trashed by rng

[night sparrow]

Let's say you'll be luckier on the 18 prism stacks burst if you play double use trinks haha

[lusty epoch]

bro, i don't have prism yet. i'm completely cursed this season

[worthy pulsar]

is there a huge difference between CB and Tea in ST?

[night sparrow]

Press F to pay respect (I'm playing with the nm version lul, a lil more lucky than you but not that much)

[lusty epoch]

is normal version better than lily hc?

idk

[tribal blade]

not huge i don't think no

[latent finch]

In my sims it was even better then my mythic lily when i got it 🙂

[night sparrow]

Playing tea adds additionnal thinking process tho, gotta pay attention to not go under 30 energy out of bursts, I find this annoying af personnaly

I just wanna chill between my dance windows

[lusty epoch]

i just made a quick sim and tea is worse by 33k dps on a 5 min fight

[worthy pulsar]

for Tea do you use it outside flag/sb?

[limpid sage]

close to dwarf->maghar orc diff

crazy

[lusty epoch]

i'm waiting for sale on race change, been rocking troll rogue since wotlk lol

[minor sorrel]

CB is much easier to play tho

And in aoe it isnt taht much of a gain

[lusty epoch]

yeah and stat weights might be missleading as well, they are simmed after CB and not tea

[limpid sage]

how's cb easier

[minor sorrel]

Any opintions on alpha sub ? .. i think if they make any of our cds hasted they need to make all hasted or else youll just skip the haste talents right?

[limpid sage]

it's 1 extra button

[minor sorrel]

so is tea

[limpid sage]

no you bind it to shadow dance

[minor sorrel]

• tea forces you to stay above 30 energy outside of cds

[limpid sage]

no you just forget it exists

you use all tea charges on pull

[minor sorrel]

i use 2 mostly

and the 3rd after flag buff ends usually

and then when my cds come up i just stit still to not proc an tea

to have it alongside my cds*

[wispy crystal]

do you guys just bind prism together with shadowdance?

[latent finch]

No dont do that

[minor sorrel]

nope i bound it to shadwoblades

[wispy crystal]

sorry i meant SHADOWBLADES. not shadowdance, got confused

do we bind prism with blades for efficient usage?

[vale pine]

either shadowblades or have it as seperate bind

[limpid sage]

I press it manually for pad

[vale pine]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[vale pine]

is the use case

[limpid sage]

if you have forge you can just put both on shadowblades

with forge being first ofc

[wispy crystal]

"If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack."

what scenarios favor the 18 stacks?
im using champion prism + heroic pacemaker at the moment

[minor sorrel]

i have the prism + lily setup

so i use 2 macros

[limpid sage]

on first boss priory for example

[night sparrow]

Gotta have at least one bind for prism in m+, sometimes you'll use your blades 2mn+ after the previous one so it sends forge

[minor sorrel]

alongside 2 makros for Technique, one with CB one without. Both check if Symbols is active b4 letting me Tech

[limpid sage]

if you know you can save prism stacks and send your cds without prism stacks

and can send 18 stacks on the giga pull

[limpid sage]

ye but then you'll probably not have enough stacks to make it outweigh forge though

[minor sorrel]

Prism is insane for big pulls though

[limpid sage]

but ye pressing manually obv is the best choice if you can handle the mental load

[night sparrow]

happened to me a few times, have 18 prism stacks, send burst "oh shit forge was up fuck me"

[limpid sage]

ahhhh ye that's the worst case scenario

[wispy crystal]

i have prism and lily too, but seems alot of effort for a 0.4% DPS gain for me. so i ended up using the passive instead

[night sparrow]

made a weak aura to avoid that tho

[wispy crystal]

got it, in raid scenario is okay to just bind with blades since stacks reset upon pull right?

[minor sorrel]

overall it wont matter if your team pulls consistantly

its nice for fights with amps

[limpid sage]

ye it's okay but I'd recommend doing it manually just so you can avoid the bad habit

[minor sorrel]

if your team tends to do Big opull small pull big pull small pull

prism is be better

[wispy crystal]

my team in this case is usually a pug tank XD

[limpid sage]

prism is be better

[minor sorrel]

then take a passive

[night sparrow]

If that fights allows you to send blades on CD yes, otherwise nope. For example on the Soulbinder Naazindhri fight, you'd use your second burst at ~2mn and the next one at ~4mn30

[wispy crystal]

i have it on 2 seperate binds, but so far i just press prism together with blades

[minor sorrel]

Prism is be better always

[night sparrow]

So if you don't pay attention you'll send forge while having 12-18 prism stacks

[wispy crystal]

yes usually save prism for the big add spawn on soulbinders

Really need to get an upgrade from my champion prism.

Having a heroic one would be nice 🙂

Can't wait for dinars now

[night sparrow]

Same :<

[night sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rknfDsCGCvQ

[wispy crystal]

Also a forge would be great too

[night sparrow]

[wispy crystal]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! I LOLED

This is hilarious

Sweaty guy meme is real

[night sparrow]

thx, first time I edited something, turned out pretty okay :>

[wispy crystal]

Full send perfect rotation while BM and Ret press one button

Divine storm and beast cleave lolll

[wispy crystal]

It's great, loved it 😍

[vapid lodge]

I saw that we are pressing finishers at 6+ CP even in mini cds. Does that also include coup or do you want to get to 7 for coup

[tepid trellis]

generally speaking always 6+ for everything

[vapid lodge]

Gotcha thanks!

[tepid trellis]

only time you break that rule is out of dance when your 2nd coup would expire otherwise

then you just rip it

at w/e cp you are at

[vapid lodge]

Also, is there an easy way to read all the bot commands without spamming the chat here?

[tepid trellis]

in the pins

so just gotta try em out

[vapid lodge]

Yeah but do I need to spam the commands in this channel one by one? Or can I read them elsewhere

[night sparrow]

is it okay to take the risk to waste an unseen blade proc to 6+ cp coup ? Even when you KNOW that an additionnal unseen blades will proc (= wasted) bc of SecTec sent right before ?

Didn't really got into it, I always use coup asap disregarding number of cp to avoid wasting unseen blades, might have to change that

[tepid trellis]

ideally you never wanna finish below 6

[night sparrow]

gotcha

[vale pine]

probably should add !aoe to the list

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[vale pine]

done

[tepid trellis]

so like the only time you really worry about unseen waste

is during blades or on 4 or more targets

outside of that it just isnt worth it

[night sparrow]

alright thank's

[tepid trellis]

and the only reason its worth in those 2 scenarios is that you can force the high cps without wasting

[night sparrow]

yeah you send Shuriken Storm instead of bs/ss right ?

[karmic harbor]

getting 20fps in raid

[night sparrow]

in those cases

[karmic harbor]

its 9800x3d time

[tepid trellis]

Yes

[night sparrow]

20fps ? You're an aristocrat ! 🥸

Excuse-me my good sir

[vale pine]

i play on 24 fps

[fleet island]

with lily and netherprism i use nether every 3rd blades?

[tepid trellis]

every time prism goes to 18 with cds

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[fleet island]

ty

[limpid sage]

me when dornogal

[vale pine]

my laptop is just bad ^^

[limpid sage]

we don't talk about my performance on queen ansurek when waves came out

[vale pine]

and wow isn't exactly optimized

[limpid sage]

my laptop sounded like a jet engine

[scenic plover]

X3d claims another victim

[keen dome]

That's what I'm gonna upgrade to

gotta have the big cpu for all my wowin'

[vale pine]

think the majority goes x3d atm

intel somewhat lost its edge

[limpid sage]

I feel like premed storm if you have coup up should be a gain

[keen dome]

Ye, intel is more expensive, runs worse, uses more 'leccy, runs hotter, etc.

[tepid trellis]

if premed is active that late into a dance some funky business has been done before hand

[limpid sage]

no but what if you have 2nd coup because you sent coup last gcd of last dance for example

OR you have coup saved for your upcoming cd set (less niche)

then you'd send flag->rupture->dance+storm

[tepid trellis]

you would still press sectecj

before coup

so

its gonna get gone

[limpid sage]

I mean you end up ignoring the "!used_for_danse" part

[tepid trellis]

also in that case you have blades so its w/e

[limpid sage]

but you'll most likely have enough ShT stacks to get a refresh after as well

imma cook something brb

[alpine wraith]

you could argue actually if you have 10+ sht going into second dance to slam storm

so you can sec tech coup coup

[tepid trellis]

you wont

[alpine wraith]

but i dont think it would happen that much anyway

and besides not like losing 1 unseen is enough to go vs a strike although if it replaces stab ends up being the same with 1 unseen being there

[limpid sage]

you could also send sectec as first builder into flag no?

idk if apl ever does that or if it always goes rupture

[alpine wraith]

because of buff duration of flag it always does 1 finisher before dance

so it will flag rupture or flag evis

[tepid trellis]

also lets say you have a long ass rupture going and you do Flag-dance+sod+sectech yeh

even if you have 14 stacks

of sht

premed will block it

[limpid sage]

you just send a storm there then

[tepid trellis]

my point being

premed will not be up

for inbetween coups

its too far into a dance

and to many bugs

[limpid sage]

hm true

or too niche to optimize around

[tepid trellis]

like in that top scenario you could in theory do it

but premed blocks refunds

so even then you couldnt

not that it matters cuz you are in blades anyway

but just as of making a point

[desert rover]

What is single target dummy rules for Lily + Netherprism double trinket usage?

[vale pine]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[autumn pawn]

how much haste we need for play CB build ?

[latent finch]

We dont need any more haste then for all other builds

[autumn pawn]

you dont have energy problem during dance with 0% haste ?

[tepid trellis]

during dance no

haste barely affects energy regen

[slate lantern]

all my homies hate haste

[latent finch]

Will probably be a hard time in midnight for your homies ^^

[autumn pawn]

okok, so 0% haste is ok ?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[azure ember]

if my guild is running 2 rogues and 1 hpal for blessing do each rogue only need 1 blessing of autumn for cds to line up on platforms?

[tepid trellis]

for nexus king?

[azure ember]

yes

[tepid trellis]

there will only be 1 autumn before platforms

so

only one will get it

[azure ember]

fug

[autumn pawn]

thanks for ur replies @tepid trellis

[azure ember]

what about before dmg amp?

[karmic harbor]

platforms?

do you really need blessing for platforms

[hazy breach]

You do not need autumn for nexus king no, you can still get all of your burst on the platform and in the amp

But it is better to have it than to not have it

[karmic harbor]

you finish platforms at like ~3:30

if autumn can give both rogues flag for amp that's big at least idk if it does

[hazy breach]

You cant

Only 1

[karmic harbor]

unlcuky

[late pasture]

how important are stats on sub compared to sin? because i'll be playing sub tonight on araz prog and i have 4.5k versatility (6%), is that gonna be an issue?

[hazy breach]

You still get the entire flag and blades in the amp and on the platform

[hazy breach]

As long as you dont have haste it doesnt really matter

[karmic harbor]

i just dont know if im hard trolling by not pressing anything until flags up on amp

but i do like 26m during amp so its probably ok

[crystal bone]

u should be using a dance prior to flag

[late pasture]

i have 8.7k haste (13%) just passively from gearing assassination

[crystal bone]

amp happens -> dance -> flag window

[karmic harbor]

interesting

i rly dont wanna use sht and coup on a shitty dance

but ill try that out

[crystal bone]

utilizing entire amp is prob greater than holding

[karmic harbor]

you still get 2.5 dances if you hold

[crystal bone]

well, i was told by eleem to dance into flag window

we are still progging platforms so i have not had the chance yet

[karmic harbor]

oh

[cyan saddle]

Hey guys. Can someone explain why we don’t use black powder on m araz

[crystal bone]

7% additional prio damage to evis on boss

[karmic harbor]

erm... im kinda smoking him

[left ledge]

Because the adds die too damn fast

[karmic harbor]

ig the difference probably isnt that big

[cyan saddle]

Fair. So then is it worth not bothering to try and get off a shurken storm and just go with backstab?

[karmic harbor]

maybe

you should be dancing everytime adds come out

and you dont use storm in dance, unless its inbetween coup

[cyan saddle]

I’m coming from sin for every other fight so sub is a bit foreign to me

[karmic harbor]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[cyan saddle]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[cyan saddle]

Hmm ok

Gonna have to do some reading before prog this week.

Is sub really as hard to learn as people say it is? I’ve always been afraid of it admittedly lol

[karmic harbor]

learn the opener

learn the dance rotation

you'll parse purple

[cyan saddle]

Sick. Outside of dance you’re basically afk right?

[karmic harbor]

yep

[jagged adder]

Outside dance if there are 2+ targets we are building with shuriken storm correct? Or is it 3?

[late pasture]

dance rotation means when to send a dance outside of blades?

[cyan saddle]

Will be a nice change from sin or outlaw in that aspect

[karmic harbor]

when to press / having enough charges for next flag / what buttons you should press in dance

[tepid trellis]

2nd autumn should be up a decent bit before amp

its a 45sec cd

and needs to go through 3

to get to autumn again

[hazy breach]

Fair the amp isnt until like 4:30 and the second autumn is cast at like 3:45

and it lasts 30 seconds

[tepid trellis]

yea

but the pala needs to rip it on cd

and i think they use one of them

for the platform healing

nvm they dont

[left ledge]

Think they did on prog

But rn stuff just falls over

[tepid trellis]

i checked our prog log

[left ledge]

O

[tepid trellis]

and ours didn't

[left ledge]

Mine def used on themself second cast

[tepid trellis]

they just summer on platform

[karmic harbor]

mine told me he cant autumn anyone because they need it to get defensives back or something

im not tilted

[hazy breach]

[tepid trellis]

lol

thats the one defensive ours used during the amp, all the way at the end of the claws

and its a 1min cd and there is more than 1 from the one before it

[lusty epoch]

i really don't like to fish for fazed when flag is off cooldown, just feels wrong. Is it worth to start using storm instead of bs when flag has 20 sec cooldown left?

[hazy breach]

What

Why would you need to fish for fazed

Sectech applies fazed 100% of the time

[lusty epoch]

oh yeah it does

my bad

never thought of it

i guess because you don't get flawless form stack from it i just missed it

there are too many talents to remember lol

[desert rover]

whats the secret sauce to playing Sub my numbers are dog somehow even though I feel like I m doing okayish

[tepid trellis]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[tepid trellis]

nailing the big bursts and regular dances is like 85% of the spec

then its just taking that and applying the dynamic cooldowns to the different fights in the raid which all allow some dynamic dance lineups

[raven sail]

Love you

[autumn pawn]

It's ok to drop Instant poison for Wound poison on miniboss HoA ?

[latent finch]

yes its not only ok its alot better to do

[karmic harbor]

It's op

[late pasture]

we wanna use numbing in m+ and atrophic in raid right?

[crystal bone]

generally yes, although i think atrophic starts to be better in high keys

like 17-18+, not sure exactly which key level

[barren haven]

Sorry m8 was offline for a while. Sitting on Coup nearly ready and pumping st over st without getting it to procc

[warm marlin]

That’s because you’re only guaranteed 3 unseen blades before your second sectec

and the 4th has to come from an rng reset from auto attacks

That is completely hidden and untrackable

the only workaround is that the unseen blades from sectec are infinite duration and persist through death (but not instancing), so you can cast it before a raid wipe or in the dungeon before the key is put in and guarantee your 4th that way

But it’s annoying to do

[barren haven]

Wauw … thanks for explanation … I was wondering, but thought it Must be something I am missing.

So its turnip time b4 putting the key in

[desert rover]

do I press Backstab during every dance or just during The First Dance?

[late pasture]

good question, i'd like to know as well

[latent finch]

You do it every dance yes

[late pasture]

does shiv add to danse macabre stacks? and is it worth it to use at all?

[latent finch]

yes it does but its not worth using

[late pasture]

yea it's just a wasted gcd at that point

[vale pine]

yes, but it also does no damage

[late pasture]

the assassination player in me wants to find any way to use shiv

[vale pine]

haha

too bad you won't use shiv in midnight

[desert rover]

dont worry I m 100% sure Blizz wont fuck up by removing our specs most fun button

[late pasture]

yea i'm def gonna miss shiv a little bit

but they might go the route of adding a bunch of enrage mobs

i'll be playing sub tonight on araz, and i have a question - a lot of logs send cds at 00:22 - 00:30ish, that is when the adds come out right?

i was the designated hard swap to echo as sin, and with fatebound i always had a kingsbane to send on it, am i still alright? it is prog, but just trying to understand sub as much as i can

in a short amount of time

[latent finch]

Its a bit before the first adds comes out. The plan is to get the second sec tec+ cb into the adds. But i if you place the adds behind the puddels im not sure about the timeings

[late pasture]

we do place them behind and since i'm new i kinda just send sectec and cb together, i didn't really practice that optimization too much

[turbid zodiac]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[turbid zodiac]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[visual lark]

!bp

[late pasture]

unless i'm using an out-of-blades dance, then i just send a sectec without cb

[visual lark]

do we always want to pool for 2x shadowdance in blades window?

[latent finch]

Your job as sub is kinda to delete the adds. You send your dances around their spawns. In the intermission on the pillar your mostly afk and you can pool a bit for the dmg amp. And kinda repeat. Maybe take a look at lorrgs and watch some kill videas to see how dances play out on that fight

[shrewd lantern]

You want to slam 2 dances, 2 symbols, 2 secret teches every set of blades+flag.

[visual lark]

thank you

[late pasture]

alright, will do, thanks a lot!

[desert rover]

my entire raid does 5m+ dps each and we wiped twice on dimmy because nobody is doing the adds in P2 man

is this game hard

aaaaaand everyone quit

[exotic meadow]

hi guys is there like any possible way to macro shadowblades with 1. time lily-> 2nd time with netherprism on pressing?

[lilac stag]

You can send a dance and immediate Sectech on pull then have the timings running for basically every add spawn. You don’t want to be in soak group 1 if possible.

prepping for the burn phase is biggest priority once you get fight timings down

[late pasture]

oof, pretty sure i'm in 1st and 3rd soak groups

[lapis gale]

Hi rogues,

Looking for some advice on my trinket choice for M+ keys (17+) as I still don't have Nether-Gorged Netherprism. Here's what I'm working with: Lily of the Eternal Wave 710, Araz's Ritual Forge 710, Astral Antenna 710

My main dilemma is choosing between two setups:

1. Araz's Ritual Forge + Astral Antenna / But How to best handle Araz's 2-minute cooldown?
   • Use it on CD and meaning aligned it only once in two shadow blades
   • OR Hold shadow blades 30s tu use it only with Araz
2. Lily of the Eternal Wave + Astral Antenna : the 1.5-min CD lines up with shadow blades. But it sims slightly lower than the Araz setup.

So the core question is: is the raw power of Araz worth dealing with its awkward 3-minute CD in M+, or is the consistency and smoother alignment of Lily better for overall damage?

TY

[void ocean]

the best way to handle Araz 3 min cd is to use it every 2 mins, since its a 2 min cd trinket 😄

[lapis gale]

x) i knwo talking about aligned it with shadows blades

[tepid trellis]

well if its your only on-use you would just smack it on the every other blades

but id just play Lily+antenna

[regal sky]

is it normal for sim to recommend no TFD build? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qvFd5M5dAZ2ZJPudaxhREh

[void ocean]

tfd starts fallin off a bit in fights longer than 5 mins

so if u sim 6-7 mins its possible

[regal sky]

right, i used 6 mins on that one

[void ocean]

tho have no clue how it works for d slice

d slice is a mistery

ppl usually use it just for gear comparison

[lofty cave]

15 eco feedback appreciated

[quaint lodge]

`

This is the downtime in your sim

This is the damage in your sim

Meaning you basically never restealthed

TFD is better, sim just isn't accounting for it

which is odd cuz I swear it used to

@vale pine does TFD get accounted for in dslice sims

[lilac stag]

Ask to swap.