subtlety

[vale pine]

so you need to align 2x dance to it

with dance 45 sec cooldown

you can perfectly align it

[short radish]

yeah unless we get an extra cast of dance which is 50% haste

its kinda pointless

[vale pine]

but now you get lets say 5 sec cooldown down on it

[sweet turret]

I guess we all will play a very specific number of haste, with no number below or above it

[vale pine]

now dance is 40

but you need 2 dance charges

so what you do?

you want to align them, because 20% more damage

and strike hits like a truck

[sweet turret]

Shadow strike so good?
Did I oversee a talent?

[vale pine]

which means

you ofc delay dance

so the 5 sec cdr

is completely lost

because you don't use it

[tepid trellis]

they nuked finisher dmg and buffed strike by 150%

[vale pine]

and this means, many of the haste talents

are only good if you hit certain thresholds

where you can hit 3x dance in 90 sec

for example

which means you would need to bring dance down to 30 sec

and any haste before

is useless

[sullen oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-passed-out-cat-dead-cat-kitty-sleep-gif-17010657718878120348

[vale pine]

well not entirely useless

because of bloodlust

but its very "all or nothing"

[cyan ember]

So we are the new fire mage?

[vale pine]

something which is the complete opposite of dynamic

which is what makes subtlety

like subtlety exists because we stack damage amps

because we have dynamic cooldowns

we can adjust to encounters

it is the ONLY reason we saw play at all in this xpac during early progress every tier

and this part is now entirely removed

and it probably is worse in m+

because you atm had cooldowns for most packs

and with the update we don't play trickster likely

so we lose cleave (nimble flurry is trickster specific)

strike is pure st

and get a flat spammy damage profile instead

with a lot of downtime

[sweet turret]

Will we play deathstalker?
What are the thoughts on hero talents currently

[vale pine]

i mean the only reason trickster was good was

because our cooldowns where

[sullen oriole]

sad week to be an sub player tbh

[vale pine]

tricksters flawless form stacks are cappd

now

and with almost all damage amps reduced or removed

finishers don't do that much anymore

and we can't rly acellerate cooldowns because they are flat cds

[sweet turret]

It's very sadge

And deathstalker we will evis in multi target after 3 procs of mark

[vale pine]

the changes to Deathstalker seem like upgrades

[sweet turret]

Which changes there are?

[vale pine]

like

[sweet turret]

By the way, thanks for keeping us updated fuu ❤️

[vale pine]

corrupt the blood is currently a seperate stacking thing

you need to be very careful how to refresh

its now just a flat increase of damage to rupture

clear the witness is a flat damage buff instead of a proc

its just simplifying things

making them passives

[sweet turret]

But how do we play mark then?

[vale pine]

deathstalkers mark is now procced on 5+ cp

[sweet turret]

I like passive's which get better, when I play better

[vale pine]

and not max cp

also good update

[sweet turret]

But I still evis on 10+ target then?

Without cleave

[vale pine]

hard to say

like there is an entire row of hero talents missing too

so we might see some improvements there

[sweet turret]

I would like big black powder finisher

Would work well with the theme of DS

[vale pine]

like this

subtlety has a lot less shadow damage now

because evis/bp now just deal more baseline damage

and finishers are way less powerful

[runic trail]

Do we have more purple? Asking for Gestalt's sake

[sweet turret]

Why after?

We are a burst class

Why are we flat now

M power fantasy...😭🥲

[vale pine]

i mean we probably are not

because strike does a lot of damage

and is only during cooldowns

[sweet turret]

And aoe? Still stricking main target & then BP?

[limpid sage]

I just realised

nelf is gonna be meta

pog

[sweet turret]

Why?

[limpid sage]

free shadowstrike every 2 mins

[sweet turret]

My Worgen👀

[graceful osprey]

Hmmm, not too fond of the changes right now

[cyan ember]

On a scale of 1-10 how over is it for us right now

[vale pine]

we don't get cleave damage without playing trickster

so we either are forced to play trickster in m+

or on add fights

or well.... we just don't do good cleave

and rely on BP damage to carry

[spring elm]

9

[alpine wraith]

tornado will also be a problem

[vale pine]

tornado isn't rly a problem

its better than before i guess

[alpine wraith]

well you will do some degen things

but who knows maybe it does not matter anyway

still need to see other things but at least next week we get turbo boost

so we can upgrade 3 things

pog

[graceful osprey]

Beta will be different surely

[fair anchor]

the finality coup bug is integrated in the sim right ?

[vale pine]

yes

[kindred compass]

hello. astral antenna or araz's ritual forge with unyielding netherprism ?

[vale pine]

both

depending on encounter or situation

antenna is very good on more static encounters

prism + forge is better on encounters with add spawns you can align it well to

[kindred compass]

but unyielding is unchangable right ?

antenna + unyielding or araz's + unyielding

not antenna + araz's

[vale pine]

yes

always prism

forge might be playable

with super short kill timers

so like heroic/normal speedkills

[kindred compass]

thank you ❤️

[bronze karma]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[karmic harbor]

Im going kinda insane in floodgate

wiped to last boss tho

[cosmic dust]

Fuu, what is your first impression on midnight changes ? Tell me your feelings about it

[hearty fog]

#subtlety message think you can start about here

The more you'll go down, the more you're gonna want to dial an emergency number

[hazy breach]

#midnight-subtlety But the TLDR of current changes is that you can never dance outside of blades and strike does more damage than coup

[vale pine]

we are in last phase now

we embrace the chaos and make the best of it

there are currently 2 ideas of how the rotaiton might play out

[hearty fog]

At this point I just think they hate our guts ngl

Like I can't even fathom what the fuck is going through their heads

[vale pine]

• The common sense one: You would just use your cooldowns together every 90 secs and kinda wait between (and use some symbols/secret)
• My stupid idea: To seperate dance/blades and use dance ONLY outside of blades. Like in the attached image.
  The first one seems more likely, but i like to think outside the box too and consider the 2nd option as plausible.

[hearty fog]

Did you get access to the Midnight Alpha, fuu?

[vale pine]

not yet

[hearty fog]

dang

[vale pine]

but will at some point in the future

just a matter of time

to quickly explain my stupid idea

[hearty fog]

the thing i can't even start to explain is how they didn't think for a second that removing all of our damage amps tied to shadow dance meant that they had to at least increase the baseline damage of our skills

so now we're basically dealing wet noodle damage regardless of shadow dance or not (except for shadowstrike of course)

[vale pine]

the baseline for it is:

• Strike is now our strongest spell.
• Dance only increases strike damage, not finisher damage
• Symbols only increases finisher damage, not builder damage
• Blades increases all damage, but makes you use A LOT of finishers.

so you could seperate it to maximize strike casts outside of blades

while having finisher "spam" during blades and align symbols to it

[graceful osprey]

That sounds way worse that what we have now

[vale pine]

its just an idea

as mentioned

the defualt or intuitive one would be

afk for 74 sec

between blade casts

and just send cooldowns during them

(and some spare symbols/secret between)

[hearty fog]

I don't understand why some cooldowns increase finisher damage, some increase shadowstrike, some all damage

That seems completly all over the place

[vale pine]

well independent of that

[hearty fog]

especially considering our mastery is just "increase finisher damage"

[vale pine]

the main purpose of dance is now to use strike

as it hits like a truck

[graceful osprey]

I’d rather they keep what we have now, they can make it a little easier, combine flag and SB etc, but just boost our consistency outside of CDs.

[vale pine]

so you might pool energy

then strike as much as possible

use tea

and repeat

[hearty fog]

So wait

8 seconds of dance where we don't use anything but shadowstrike?

We're gonna overcap on combo points like crazy

[vale pine]

you likely need to use one finisher

but ye

well finishers do less damage now

like coup

[graceful osprey]

So this is looking like my MoP gameplay lol
Shadow strike is just ambush now

[vale pine]

does less damage than strike

and it is a super empowered evi

[hearty fog]

it's joever

[rapid oasis]

is blizz taking feedback on the alpha?

[vale pine]

yes

[limpid sage]

[vale pine]

the bluepost also linked a alpha feedback forum

[rapid oasis]

we should try to do something about it? i skimmed commebts but it doesnt look so good?

[vale pine]

but i am unsure if you can post

without having alpha

as mentioned, i will get alpha at one point

will do a post when that happens

but also might need a lot of testing before

[hearty fog]

High copium on my part, but I do hope it's just the base framework of a future big rework

[rapid oasis]

i dont really get the sec tech change

cuz you would never be able to use it more than once during your cds right?

[vale pine]

basically

they lowered the cooldown which isn't a bad thing

but changed the cdr thing

because cp based cdr

is difficult to understand

[rapid oasis]

wouldnt it be better if it became 10 sec cd but can only be used during dance or something?

[vale pine]

the goals of midnight

is to appeal to an apple customer

to explain what i mean

[hazy breach]

Yet they didnt change shadowcraft

[vale pine]

ye

[rapid oasis]

or the mythical casual gamer. fuck your existing userbase lmao

[vale pine]

apple had the iphone succeed

by targeting the stupiest user

they designed the interface so a user with no technical knowlage what soever can use intuitively

[limpid sage]

it's crazy that they'd target a niche spec for people that obviously want a challenge and make it into strike spamming though

[vale pine]

which did mean they e.g. unlocked an entire segment of people that else would not use these devices

e.g. the typical stay at home mom would not need a phone before

so to get back to the point

blizz does the same with midnight

they remove everything that seems complicated

and for subtlety that means:

• all damage amps from dance
• flagellaiton
• danse macrabe or similar layered spells

yet, as eleem mentioned shadowcraft and sht stay intact

even tho these are one of the most misunderstood options

[rapid oasis]

i mean they have got to give us sonething in exchange for killing flag, no?

[vale pine]

well flag was a ~20-25% damage gain

danse was another probably 10%

so thats just gone

[rapid oasis]

surely the capstone will fix all of our problems

[vale pine]

means subtlety will do a lot worse unless they change numbers elsewhere

[rapid oasis]

yea, i dont really get why theyre so set on making haste a thing for subs

[vale pine]

but thats easy to fix tbh

like if sub is 30% worse

aura buff it 30%

or 35%

rather

(because aur buffs are not diretcly linear buffs)

[rapid oasis]

i just wish we maintain the niche of being the high peak low valley spec that can flexibly move around cds

[graceful osprey]

I agree

[sharp hatch]

Is there any find weakness weakaura to track how many got it on them for AOE?

[rapid oasis]

like for all I care, they can make the new shadow blades do what current flag+shadow blades do, but we should maintain being able to move around shadow dance and symbols witb sec tech being a big shiny button we want to optimize around

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[hearty fog]

That was exactly my point yeah

I don't understand their logic to remove all the damage amps, and not buff it baseline on all our skills

That should be class design 101 for those morons

[rapid oasis]

i dunno if I wanna keep playing sub if we become a shadowstrike spam spec tho

[hearty fog]

Let's close the discord, that'll show em

[rapid oasis]

worked for the most popular dps spec, surely it will also work for the least popular spec in the game too

[vale pine]

well thats diffrent

if you stack damage amps during cooldowns

you create a certain damage profile

let me illustrate

[hearty fog]

Absolutely, I understand that

But I'm guessing their idea is to like

Remove that specific damage profile to make us more akin to the other dps specs

[vale pine]

like this

[hearty fog]

I don't know if i'm explaining my thoughts correctly

But if that's their idea for this "new sub", then our overall damage should be increased

[vale pine]

but if you only marginally increase damage during dance

its like this

[hearty fog]

Yup

[vale pine]

and you just do more damage always

now what they did is

make strike do more

because its exclusive to dance

but our mastery is finishers

and hero talents also build on finishers

both coup de grace and dn do

[graceful osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/purge-gif-12422702707812710497

This entire discord must be purged

[vale pine]

to be fair

both assassiantion and outlaw got fantastic changes

similar to DF

[hearty fog]

Yeah

[vale pine]

alpha

history repeats

[hearty fog]

That's what makes me so mad tho lmfao

Like no shade to our assassination brothers

I love 'em

[rapid oasis]

but i actually like this spec though

[hearty fog]

But Sub constantly gets the short end of the stick it seems

And it's mildly infuriating

But oh well, we'll make it work

[lilac stag]

@vale pine shut down the channel. Clearly worked for Ret

[graceful osprey]

See you all in 13.0 o7

[vale pine]

XD

for what its worth

beta in DF did end up making adjustments to have the spec played

it took months

[hearty fog]

mfw when you want to play a shadowy nimble melee and blizzard points you to devourer demon hunter

[vale pine]

and a heavy nerf to outlaw/sin

[hearty fog]

[vale pine]

but sub ended up as the most played in s1

besides a bad start

same in 10.2

after a heavy nerf to assassiantion

it was played

just don't talk about m+

and we are great

[lilac stag]

it wasn’t good. It became less bad option

[vale pine]

sub was actually insane

in s3

because of the raid

[lilac stag]

Sure.

That doesn’t make up for 2 full seasons of garbage

[hearty fog]

yeah I remember Amirdrassil

Had fun with it

Kinda sad they didn't lean more into the whole shadow clone thing for us

[native zodiac]

I wish they would go into that more without the pet bugs ofc

Spawning clones that mimic you would be pretty cool

[hearty fog]

Yeah

[rapid oasis]

yea, but interacting with pets have not been great historically, has it?

[native zodiac]

Defo has been a lot of bugs with pets yeah

[rapid oasis]

so lets not ask for it lol

[hearty fog]

The ability to overwhelm mobs with clones that mimic your finishers or something would be incredible

[native zodiac]

Well beeing afraid of doing something bc of bugs is like giving up before trying

Not like current sub isnt bugged to shit either

[rapid oasis]

speaking of which I like them changing find weakness from debuff to a buff

that should get rid of some of the buggy interactions right?

[rapid oasis]

i dunno, i always hated pet classes, just dont wanna see sub go that route

[native zodiac]

It wouldnt realy be pets though, just same as aakari right now

[hearty fog]

Akaari's soul counts as pet damage i believe

right now

[native zodiac]

Ye it does

[hearty fog]

[native zodiac]

Its caused a lot of troubles in the past

Prob going a bit too offtopic but i think it would be a sick fantasy for sub to spawn a bunch of clones to mimic you and they slowly fade away after cds

[rapid oasis]

that could be an interesting take on the new cd button whatever it ends up being

[hearty fog]

ngl I don't understand how they could look at Ky'veza and not think "oh yeah, that would be cool"

lmfao

[native zodiac]

Literally should have been us

[hearty fog]

it's literally a rogue sub brought to 11

but oh well

they were busy reworking hunters again probably

too real

[hazy breach]

I mean we got a lot of text

[rapid oasis]

5% aura buff

[pastel rampart]

fire mage has 3 buttons now

pf removed scorch removed just mash fireball until smth crits

[hollow brook]

Haste lower sectecs cd seems so weird

Is sub a pi target now lol

[analog granite]

What's a good sub rogue guide on youtube?

[crystal bone]

they deleted so many spells to simplify the game

maybe pi gone too

[queen plinth]

is there any content creator who posted a video about rogues in midnight?

just saw a video for mage and holy midnight is going to kill wow

[graceful osprey]

What about the mage video?
How bad is it? Give it to us straight

[queen plinth]

fire became straight up 2 button class

nothing to track anymore

u only press fireball and pyroblast

sometimes some fireblast

u literally have not a single bit of thinking about cdr or anything else

[graceful osprey]

???????
Blizzard????
Hello?????

[queen plinth]

they really make this game braindead for the casuals

i mean yea make classes simpler for sure but that way its just going to be worse combat than any scuffed mmo

[graceful osprey]

I don’t mind making specs easier to play but so far it seems to be too much

I’ve always held the idea, easy to play, hard to master

[vale pine]

I think its a split

just like DF talent reworks

you see it on Rogue, the outlaw and assassiantion changes look promising

the Subtlety ones seem to appeal to only the classic players so far

[graceful osprey]

Hopefully this is just alpha shenanigans

[hazy breach]

Ye unlike sub which is uh, pressing shuriken storm > bp > bp for 74 seconds at a time

[hearty fog]

I mean, in all fairness, it is probably alpha shenanigans yeah

The fact that so many specs and hero talents don't have their apex talents or new nodes tells you everything you need to know

it's just an early concept that will probably get expanded upon in the coming weeks

[vale pine]

remember

DF alpha sub was a complete dissaster too

[queen plinth]

is there a video?

[vale pine]

and while many things remained, it had positive changes before raid release

[queen plinth]

lemme see cause what i just aw about mage is cringe

[vale pine]

don't think so

but also

without having things tested

[hearty fog]

Skim through the patch notes

[queen plinth]

im fully behind making the game easier and going away from wa and addons but those changes are just braindead

[vale pine]

i don't think its reasonable

to talk about the spec changes

[queen plinth]

like stop making wow go to ff complexity

[graceful osprey]

I thought ff had some dynamic gameplay

[queen plinth]

ff is fine

the problem with ff is, that if u can play one class u can play mostly all

cause all the classes play kinda the same and u barely press buttons

and i feel like if they make the game this level easy , it will be super boring

[analog granite]

You should see what they did to demo lock lmao

Removed every single piece of skill expression from their kit

[queen plinth]

where do u see all that

can u guys link me something

[hearty fog]

The alpha patch notes are available on wowhead if reading all that shit doesn't bother you

[graceful osprey]

Warlocks shadow bolt spamming again?

[hearty fog]

I pretty much skimmed through everything (though mostly rogue I admit)

And yeah, they removed many of the different spells Warlocks had, like summon vilefiend and grimoire felguard

[graceful osprey]

Classic + disguised as 12.0

[analog granite]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/midnight-alpha-development-notes-378688

You can read all the class changes here

[analog granite]

Yeah they removed those and they also simplified implosion to where it requires no more decision making

[hazy breach]

#midnight-subtlety

[analog granite]

And a cap on imps and stuff like that

[hearty fog]

tbh i fucking hated implosion so i won't complain on that front but i'm sad all the summons were removed

[queen plinth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5665UCv7B0E

[summer mica]

they want to bring their shit game to consoles, cant do that when every class has like 30 hotkeys/abilities/interactions, thats why every class gets simplyfied into oblivion

[rancid spade]

when does crests get uncapped?

[placid elk]

21 oct

22 for eu

[onyx mulch]

!rotation

!st

[meager coyote]

so since rotten is no longer bugged (thanks for sharing this knowledge with me yday) is there any way we're minmaxing it?

[hazy breach]

Nop

[meager coyote]

so doesn't matter if I spend it on backstab, fan or ss?

cos I remember it used to be ss into fan

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[meager coyote]

ye I know the rotation regarding target count and so on, just curious if there's some rotten minmax cos it seems like it'd be a waste to use a rotten stack on backstab on cds, esp. in aoe

but I guess if I just ignore it it's easier than I figured

[haughty rose]

what are the chances blizzard dumps the whole hast CD reduction stuff before the actual launch?

do they announce stuff just to dump it later on when the actual testing revealed the flaws or do they insist that their idea was executed well enough?

i'm genuinely curious since this will be the first time i go from one xpac to another since mop > wod and during that time i was a kid

[tepid trellis]

they have done so before yes

[vale pine]

for what its worth

DF alpha was the same as this alpha

both other specs had good changes

subtlety had no changes or questionable ones

and they managed to make it less bad before release

there was still nobody who was hyped about playing it

but at least people did not feel bad doing so after some changes

[runic sleet]

Can someone guide me why the shadow blade cd is less than 90 seconds ?

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/nexusking-salhadaar

[meager coyote]

blessing of summer

[tepid trellis]

blessing of autumn

[meager coyote]

I dont even have to look but it's the paladin blessing (some season idfk which)

[carmine rune]

I recently got antena on hero track. Do I replace lily or pacemaker?

Can sub use 2 passive trinkets ?

[tepid trellis]

you really want an on-use

so probably not

alot of your dmg is cramped into your 90sec cds

[strange heath]

should i believe my sim if it tells me to use double on use

[tepid trellis]

if you want to play 2x on-use then sure

[strange heath]

seems like a lot of brain power

and god knows i hate that

[placid oriole]

is there a log review section in here? im relatively new to sub and (i feel) like i get the basics of it but i cant get my m+ damage to be where i know it should be. i know im missing something critical i just dont know what

like some pulls im doing 25M, some pulls im doing 16M with cooldowns. Some pulls im doing 9M w/o and some pulls im doing like 5. its all over the place

!log

[urban egret]

so by the looks of it blizz wants sub to build more haste?

and our talent tree next expac is lookin CHUNKY.

[vale pine]

they try the brute force approach

tho its the first iteration

so we don't rly know how things end up

[vast tusk]

are there any addons that can help in raids? coz it's kinda difficult to see what im hitting when there's so many players and spells over the place

[karmic harbor]

finally got 17 resi 😩

[spice matrix]

try setting Spell Density in graphics to essential if it isn't already

[vast tusk]

thanks i just did that

[regal orchid]

!log

[autumn pawn]

Hey!
What is the prio with 2 combo points Supercharger? SecTech or Coup? pls

[turbid zodiac]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[tepid trellis]

sectech

[vale pine]

!bs @lime wigeon

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

^ you don't because you re-use the key bind

means you would need to actively use backstab with the bind by pressing it a 2nd time

[upbeat cradle]

Haste ? What's that ?

[strange heath]

why is everyone running improved wound poison in high keys now

and not just in HOA runs

[vale pine]

people probably only do for certain keys

[strange heath]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[urban egret]

true LOL

[placid oriole]

Do we not do m+ log review? No problem if not I just don’t want it to get buried if we do. I don’t really expect anyone to do too deep a dive, like I said whatever I’m missing is likely something critical I just don’t know what it is. #subtlety message

[lilac stag]

use !log

[vale pine]

he did

he just asks for somone to post in the thread

[fallow nimbus]

Can you put the puddles in p1 at dimensius mythic over another puddle?

[eager sable]

It's better to use macro /use 13 /use 14. Those are trinket slots.

[hazy breach]

Literally doesnt matter

[karmic harbor]

what if prism is my 13 trinket huh

[stoic steppe]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[graceful crown]

Sup

[eternal abyss]

Practicing Sub in HC because I'm required to play it on Saladbar.
Could anyone point out the mistakes I've done in the rotation? I'd really appreciate it.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/cFqMK38BdfZjzYTV?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=1

BL was during AMP phase. I was saving CD's for it.

[flint dust]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[broken seal]

Guys what do you think about the future sub for midnight when you see the alpha development ?

[hazy breach]

#midnight-subtlety But first impressions: We cant do any dances outside of blades and strike is now doing more damage than coups

[opal mantle]

they rly wont do any balance patch in 11 2 5 ?

thats cursed

[placid elk]

xpac is abandoned

[broken seal]

thanks !

[bleak night]

what do you need balance changes for to play remix

[crystal bone]

next balance patch is midnight's pre-patch

im guessing in february

[vale pine]

isn't pre patch quite a bit before

maybe with housing introduction?

[tidal python]

Should be

[keen dome]

Pre-patch is probably when Lemix ends in January

Since pre-patch will introduce class design changes and I doubt they'll want Lemix stuff to get weird half-way through

[ornate lake]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[distant sage]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/q2TM1FX6GpHrcJ8j?fight=last

beyond sad

[crystal bone]

i think december is way too soon

pre-patch will drastically change all classes. i'm sure they'll want the season to end the same time as pre-patch

else keys will be hilarious

i guess i could see pre-patch in december if midnight launch following soon after

im guessing spring for launch though

[long yarrow]

Heya folks, I made this macro for prism and forge, but somehow prism(14) doesn't get pressed sometimes, any tips on what that could be?

[sweet turret]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/k9NjN3NuuZXeBzStSjJiRT

is my Sim bad?

i think 4,67 is bad dmg with current gear

[hazy breach]

Sub does piss damage on ST

[sweet turret]

I still have bad mythic log

[long yarrow]

Looks like standard dmg for sub

Plus you don't have the boots

[sweet turret]

thats giga sadge

the crafting boots?

[long yarrow]

The soul hunter boots

They are giga op

[tepid trellis]

[sweet turret]

your log?

[shrewd lantern]

that kill time

[long yarrow]

Cracked

[tepid trellis]

yes from yesterday

[sweet turret]

can you examine my log & tell me where i am bad?

[tepid trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/song-hye-kyo-now-we-are-breaking-up-hye-kyo-aniyo-disagree-gif-24401756

aint got time

[crystal bone]

stealthi just hit boss

lion does not concern himself with tangles

[tepid trellis]

[shrewd lantern]

i mean rogue hitting tangles

is wrong

[long yarrow]

I mean same

It's objectivelly not worth changing target

[crystal bone]

42m

[shrewd lantern]

probably got too close

[crystal bone]

must be accidental flurry

[shrewd lantern]

and bonked by njmble

[wheat sentinel]

Rogue, you must switch

https://tenor.com/view/no-nope-no-way-noo-absolutely-not-gif-20244171

[shrewd lantern]

Your guild is rarted

if you swap

[wheat sentinel]

Yup lol

[crystal bone]

my best loom is a 92

i suk

[tepid trellis]

yeah i move close to them

sometimes a little nimble

or sectech cleave

[crystal bone]

my frac tho

[shrewd lantern]

i had 10m on an assa kill

[crystal bone]

[shrewd lantern]

5m was coin hitting it

[crystal bone]

5.1m and last on damage meter

[shrewd lantern]

its k we good on last two

[crystal bone]

i also cant seem to parse on plexus

unlucky i guess

[shrewd lantern]

likely spend too long in intermission

rather than running to boss insta

[crystal bone]

could be

[swift tinsel]

If I'm ever top 3 on fract I never let my guild hear the end of it lol

[crystal bone]

true

green parse destro lock beats me

[calm lion]

Yo, I know Assa Rogue loses a lot of DPS by swapping in raid, but does the same apply to Sub?
Specifically on Araz with the Echo

[left ledge]

No

Sub has nothing tying it to one target

Just fw

Don’t swap on a finisher

[hazy breach]

However sub doesnt have any damage for the echo unless you skip doing damage to the small adds

[left ledge]

^

If you’re swapping you’re sending a dance

[calm lion]

Exactly what I thought, but our other Rogue KEEPS insisting it hurts his DPS to swap. And thanks Eleem, that's a good note

[left ledge]

Otherwise you’re useless

[shrewd lantern]

Doesnt the echo just die

from cleave

like eleem said it gets cleaved during your cds

or you feed it backstab soup

[vale osprey]

Would you guys use hero track lily (paired with prism) for myth dimmy prog over a myth track antenna?

[warm marlin]

I would start with prism antenna and then swap once you have consistent p2 pulls and then consider swapping back once you start deep p3 prog, if your raid doesn’t need pargoth damage

If pargoth push is still a bit sus when you’re having good p3 pulls I would just stick with Lily and lose some p3 damage

[shrewd lantern]

prob buy forge once dinars if i dont get in vault

since i legit need nothing else

[lilac stag]

Don’t be filter word evading here

[left ledge]

Dim has a lot of movement so for prog purposes just play Lily with prism

You can play antenna and try to parse after prog maybe

Always best to prog with easier gameplay

[shrewd lantern]

lmao the assa icon

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s wild

[warm marlin]

Antenna is prob still better p3

Just proc in the burn cuh

[shrewd lantern]

sometimes i consider assa on forge

with how fast our adds die

[warm marlin]

Big crit value

Especially since you’re only getting one use out of Lily if you play it

[shrewd lantern]

also not doing add knocks is so cursed

if you get the spawn on you

[warm marlin]

Prism Lily prism in p3 sounds a bit shit for Lily (boss may also just die before finishing your 18 stack blades) when you could just do prism prism prism

[left ledge]

Sure, but antenna isn’t consistent and the orbs are slow as shit so for someone progging it isn’t really worth it imo

[shrewd lantern]

hero prism sounds stinky

would honestly prefer using a soleah

or something

[warm marlin]

Yeah pacemaker is probably better

[shrewd lantern]

hero lily

i meant

[left ledge]

Yeah pacemaker is decent

[warm marlin]

Unlikely hero is better than myth antenna even so

[shrewd lantern]

is it better than soleah though

[left ledge]

Pacemaker?

Ye

[shrewd lantern]

i feel soleah giving you the stat always is nice

[left ledge]

Lines up well for dim

[warm marlin]

Idk I still had to play forge on kill because pargoth was super close still

Unlucky

[left ledge]

I play forge because forge feels better

[shrewd lantern]

I have pace and antenna on myth

[left ledge]

Prism makes double on use feel good

[shrewd lantern]

no forge yet because uhh gl asking lc

for situational gains

over people’s bis

[left ledge]

No forge because THEY DONT DROP

MY FUCK ASS GUILD

[warm marlin]

Prism passive truther

[left ledge]

ZERO ANTENNA ZERO FORGE

ITS UNREAL

[shrewd lantern]

my antenna was from vault

[left ledge]

We killed him SIX TIMES

WHERE IS THE TRINKET

[warm marlin]

I still have yet to see a forge drop above normal difficulty

Mine is from vault

[left ledge]

I got mine on heroic

[shrewd lantern]

we seen 2 in myth

[left ledge]

Thank fuck

I’m just gonna have to dinar it!

Because it won’t drop!

[warm marlin]

Mythic prism and mythic forge in vault

[shrewd lantern]

do i even fish for hc forg

if i already have myth antenna and pace

lmfao

[left ledge]

No

[shrewd lantern]

figured

[warm marlin]

I’m still playing antenna over forge unless it has a specific use case

[shrewd lantern]

we had prism drop once on myth

[left ledge]

I just dislike antenna

[shrewd lantern]

thankfully i got it

[left ledge]

I have it on monk

It is strong but

God it is annoying

[warm marlin]

just gotta hit that gcd insta run out of melee collect and step before gcd over

[shrewd lantern]

somehow i’ve gotten it on 3 difficulties from lc

[left ledge]

I’m pretty sure I skipped an antenna in vault

[shrewd lantern]

i like antenna except when the orb spawns

on nk move

[left ledge]

I had transmitter

[warm marlin]

Here’s the secret though

[left ledge]

For all of prog last tier

[warm marlin]

If you just pop cds when there’s no movement

[left ledge]

So I have enough of these shit mini games

[warm marlin]

The orbs can’t troll you

Gg

[shrewd lantern]

that sounds like me in df s2

i played grieftorch hc

on echo

[left ledge]

Well grieftorxh tbf

Was fkin op

ESP on prog

That thing had an unbalanced mechanic

[shrewd lantern]

was just funny since

never got bomb dispenser

or beacon

[hot ibex]

How does tricks work with sub? It lasts 1h, but do we need to recast it due to "30 sec" or does it refreshes itself?

[tawdry geyser]

When you cast it, you have 30s to hit something to then gain the 1h redirect

Once you hit something within that 30s window you can forget about it for an hour or until you die

[hot ibex]

thx

[lime edge]

when playing with finality do you play differently or just let it passivly buff every other ability?

[hazy breach]

Just passive

[turbid zodiac]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[graceful crown]

new haste mastery sub confirmed for midnight?

[hazy breach]

No

#midnight-subtlety

[graceful crown]

f

[willow egret]

G

Is gloomblade useful for m+ or is the replicating shadows better

[vale pine]

gloomblade is useless

[honest jetty]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[honest jetty]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[honest jetty]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[vast tusk]

what do you guys think about the addon Hekili? it's supposed to tell you the best moves to use in that scenario

[alpine wraith]

you will still need to know the logic a bit

mostly because sub needs preplanning

[stoic pier]

!kick

Does the shadowstep kick on mouseover macro work?

[vast tusk]

yeah im just a bit confused coz this addon is telling me to use Flagellation in the middle of nowhere when other CDs don't align. Same thing with shadow dance. So i'm unsure if it is legit

[last gate]

i miss step sis

i mean

sepsis ability

i dont even know what it used to do

i just know i missied it in pvp

i still press it

(even tho its a empty space ) 💔

[uneven scarab]

Was a big boi dot, also gave u a free use of a stealth ability

usually was used for garrote as assa

Dont think sub played it much

[native zodiac]

wanting sepsis back gotta be a crime

[vast tusk]

for the Symbols + Shadow Dance combo does it matter which one you use first?

[fossil forge]

Any way to fix the sound thing on saladbar platforms

[next pulsar]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[next pulsar]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[next pulsar]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lilac stag]

Your target is likely about to die so it’s trying to blow cds

[alpine wraith]

does anyone have the belt override for next week?

[formal helm]

Think it was live on nightly raidbots a while ago, but not sure

[crisp lion]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[tiny flare]

Guys hi again! Im back finally got my AotC. However feel like im doing shit damag. 2m ON Dimensius H.

Any of you can give me some hints on how to train your fingers or muscle memory to relear your rotation as sub? I feel im losing so much potential but no idea on how to improve other than reading logs that im having an issue to Understand.

[cursive spear]

uh does crippling poison work on araz adds?

[tiny flare]

Yes it does. So shivved version

[slate lantern]

you can always !log and send your wcl and have others potentially take a look

no guarantees rn since a lot of people are freaking out about midnight info

[lunar rain]

yo if there's more than 5 targets, and i have coup up, Do i use it or still use black powder?

[chrome palm]

flag 15s into nexus burn

🤮

[tribal blade]

from a failed 18 flood with people ~50 points over me

i feel like i'm playing at a level 50-70 points above where i am currently

just not getting invites and all that jazz

bad luck with lfg

[short radish]

dont worry

just wait for turbo boost

[tribal blade]

i might not push this season to title

i was making last season my last

it just blows that sub is really good atm, and i'm having tons of fun

[short radish]

yeah but consider the following

[tribal blade]

BUT then rogue is just plagued with the exact same issues as every other season of not bringing lust/bres/raid buff

so it doesn't matter how well sub is doing

[short radish]

this is the last season sub will feel this fun for a while

so you may as well go out with a bang

[tribal blade]

LOL true

[still depot]

Respect

[river cargo]

id imagine its preferred that sectec is used on a supercharged CP but is it necessary?

[vocal lantern]

My god my assa brain hurts from trying to learn sub

[umbral fulcrum]

my raid lead just said "i am... in trouble... mentally"

mid pull

dimmy is going very well

[bleak night]

[still depot]

Despite fail. Got a log? I don't pull these numbers... must investigate

[tribal blade]

yes

[tribal blade]

not sure tbh, haven't checked and i wasn't logging

[uneven shore]

I was wondering in M+ dungeons like eco-dome where you can symbols before you're released from the countdown bubble, should you avoid rupturing targets as they're being grouped so you get a 4 supercharged combo point sectec straight up? Or is it ok to rupture as they're being grouped?

[tribal blade]

it's hard to say for sure

i would say if the key level is not that high then holding the superchargers are maybe better

but if it's a higher key spreading rupture is a lot of value

[short radish]

yeah but arent you going to symbols anyway before you sectech

after it gathers

that being said it's also kinda a whatever issue

when in doubt - send

[tribal blade]

yeah you'd just be able to have 4 superchargers in your 1st dance right off the rip if you hold

but it means you're afking during the gather

[fleet wharf]

did you get title last season btw?

[crystal atlas]

I know Weapon Master over TFD isnt optimal but feels so much better on Araz >.<

[round latch]

the gap is real

[slate lantern]

Any feeling you got of weaponmaster making a difference is almost guaranteed placebo lol

[short radish]

nono the WM procs you get when youre backstabbing into the pylons are huge

[fleet wharf]

What do you do during the pylon phase? do you guys bother dotting up the adds or just backstab for 0 damage?

[short radish]

you backstab for 0 damage and compete with the healers

you can dot up if you want

and do 1 damage or something

[fleet wharf]

I feel it's negligeable, but figured I'd ask

[slate lantern]

Sometimes I take a sip of my water but other times my raid lead has me pick my boogers and give them a ranking 1-10

[formal estuary]

is there a way to sim araz's ritual forge with netherprism? my sim shows it as a downgrade over a pacemaker (pacemaker 723, ritual forge 710) but that may be incorrect. Also starting tuesday a lily + netherprism vs pacemaker

Also unrelated: why are some people popping shadow blades after the first secret technique?
For example:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JXThYHR6Fn1zLw4G?fight=38&type=casts&source=21&view=timeline

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JQVjKPmayRkDhYcZ?fight=3&type=casts&view=timeline&source=14

[warm marlin]

damage neutral compared to casting it before if you cast it right before the clones hit

mostly muscle memory because blades used to not buff sectec so you would always cast after

[elder crow]

Hi! Again trying to playbsub Rogue after many seasons as assa...someone can tell me how to play It? 😂😂😂

[tribal blade]

I DID

[barren lance]

Just try to sub a bit more and ass a bit less, that should take you far

[crystal rain]

When i sim my character with the dumb delve belt thingy, says critical chain is much more dps than charged bolt. How come in logs im seeing more people running charged bolt vs critical chain?

[hard breach]

Is this macro hurting anything to get an extra stack of Dance Macabre during Shadow Dance?

#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Backstab

Or is there a way to improve it?

[tribal blade]

not sure for logs, but if you look up chars on raider.io it'll show everyone as having bolts equipped for some reason

some sort of bug

i dont think anyone is using bolts currently

[alpine burrow]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[rapid torrent]

This was a 2% wipe on mythic forgeweaver

Telling my kids this was the kill pull

[scenic oxide]

!logs

Thanks in advance for reviewing my question in my log i posted!

[wispy crystal]

which sim option should we select for bosses like Araz, Soulbinder?

"Raid Cleave" option in Raidbots?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m9s6Vkrqk33dfghMqgKu6M

i believe we dont select Patchwerk right

[daring marlin]

Is hero forge a big gain over hero antenna for m+s

[delicate steeple]

youll kill on the pull u do sub 6 mil

gg

[wary gate]

Do people hate rogues? I've been tried to get my last two 15 and start 16 but it's getting impossible to pug keys (never had problems before)

or is it because melee spot is usually taken by dk?

[keen dome]

We don't really bring any meaningful utility compared to other classes, and people also hate rogues yes

[wary gate]

F

[keen dome]

Just keep at it, though. Some people'll take a good rogue 'cos they know they're often really reliable and consistent

[vale pine]

subtlety is considered good tbh

so this is the "best" season for rogues to get into keys

ironically

[keen dome]

Yeah

But you'll still be up against it in pugging due to volume of DPS applying

I imagine it'll be easier over the next two weeks 'cos turbo boost will have more people playing for a bit. but also lemix so maybe not.

[eternal abyss]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[tepid trellis]

Just patchwerk

You just single target the entire fight anyway. Only difference timing dances/cds to add spawns and the amp

Cant really sim that

[alpine wraith]

as gestalkt said rogue does ok damage problem is many specs also do ok dmg and buff people or have powerful cc/utility

we have poisons and aoe blind

and now that threat is not an issue uh

well

[keen dome]

It's important to bring an additional element to keys like a cute cat pet. Or endless puns. Or a really good joke book.

[sweet turret]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pqmsN2inQmMtcvttZZ4fJk
Can you guys pls help me in getting more dmg?
I dont want to be below 5... 🙁

[shadow lance]

It's the game boy

Sim st patchwerk is bad for sub

You'll parse more if kill timer is just after a set of cds

But if you kill a 4:25 for example, you're fucked

[sweet turret]

I started mythic raiding with rogue this week & my parses are awful.

While in m+ im blasting

[tepid trellis]

think my sim is around 5.3m

and im 722 ilvl

[elder crow]

Algún español por aquí que pueda echarme una mano? Graciiiiiassss

[tepid trellis]

english por favor

[shy scarab]

Its just sim dps, once its adds you will be above 6-8mill easily

But on ST GG FF15

[sweet turret]

On Soulbinder I had a 81log
But araz I had to flag once outside of amp🤌🏻🥲

[shadow lance]

I had to dance on second pylon last clear

Couldn't prep the second window burst as I would like to

[sweet turret]

I always have to dance at 2nd pylon, cause we have problems there
At best we would never do that, to better play the amp.. correct?

[elder crow]

I'm wich web do you look the rotation? Ty!

[shadow lance]

Correct, having 14 sht stacks + 2 supercharged cp + 2 Disorienting strikes is the best preparation for it

You can also hold dance on last set of adds to put on pylons and be able to prepare you burst windows, but not sure how it goes

[shadow lance]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[shadow lance]

All 3

[elder crow]

Thank you very much! 😊

[meager coyote]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[meager coyote]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```

[meager coyote]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[meager coyote]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[meager coyote]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[meager coyote]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[meager coyote]

oh wtf that's useful

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[meager coyote]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[meager coyote]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[meager coyote]

oh I've been trolling myself with extra FOK in cds 💀

[limpid sage]

it's actually neutral to use it multiple times while coup is usable

and you can do it for both standard one and 4-set one

(given you have FW up)

btw @vale pine idk if you agree, but I think our bis list should be based around optimal dps with optimal kill timers and I just found that putting vary_combat_length=0 in my droptimizer basically doubled the value from forge https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hay4gw4LZvBMhtEWXCHzNn

[wet echo]

Optimal kill timers? You think every boss is 5 min flat?

[limpid sage]

and this section in wowhead guide doesn't put forge in

[limpid sage]

no but I think most people find it more valuable to optimize your gear around having kill timers that fit you

[wet echo]

But that's not realistic

You don't gear for hitting a dummy for an amount of time that is perfect for your cds

You gear for real fights

[limpid sage]

if it's even with antenna at 20% variance and twice as good when getting an optimal kill timer, I think most people would prefer forge

[wet echo]

That's a fair conclusion but not for the reason you initially proposed

[meager coyote]

yeah but I've been randomly sending it when coup is usable and I have no CP and then another one between the 2 4set uses KEKW

straight up inting myself losing ss casts for 0

[limpid sage]

oh you've been sending in dance without 4+ targets or sblades?

[meager coyote]

no only with blades

or aoe

[limpid sage]

no maybe I worded it a bit clumsily

[wet echo]

That's fine then

[meager coyote]

but I've been using it as a way to not use a ss/backstab while coup is ready

instead of only when UB is ready (which is why we wanna use it between 4set coups no?)

[limpid sage]

ya looking back at it I could've def worded it differently

[meager coyote]

can't wait for like 90% of this optimization I'm finally starting to master to just go away

[limpid sage]

because with same logic you could run a build that does 5% less median dmg but has way higher variance

[meager coyote]

if u wanna be really sweaty u can just sim specific fights

I've simmed myself for NK prog

there's strings for fights

[limpid sage]

I never got into that

how do you put those strings

or where rather

[meager coyote]

it's some advanced simming bullshittery

I only got into it for NK cos that's like the only time my guild needed dps

[limpid sage]

I just go by intuition

either I mess it up completely or it fks

[meager coyote]

feelcrafters unite

[vale pine]

you mean forge + prism as bis instead of antenna

can do that, diffrence is low w/e+

[limpid sage]

yeah exactly

it wasn't anything big but I think it's worth mentioning

[vale pine]

can look at later

[limpid sage]

it does make me feel a bit bitter about not having forge though

0.9% upgrade on hc over myth soleahs with perfect killtimer

and neutral with variance T_T

[meager coyote]

ye but isn't double on use easier to fuck up? 🤔

[limpid sage]

you can just put both of them on blades

arguably less to think about if you wanna completely space out

[alpine wraith]

for nexus king forge+prism is more platform dmg and antenna can be more p1 amp and p3 dmg

i changed after we began getting to p3 well

[hollow spear]

do you guys get autum on king?

[vale pine]

yes

[alpine wraith]

we dont have hpala

but it is fine mostly for amp you just dance

then use flag and dancex2

and same in platform you can use it 10 secs in

just rupture the other shit and chill

im using spare dances on the kin+dragon phase too to get even more real dmg to p3 too

you can sneak 1 each phase

[chrome quiver]

Gonna ask a stupid question probably alot already have asked, how do you sim m+? just dungeon slice, or do we have a script i can put in

[alpine wraith]

if you know how to script every pull of dungeon you can use that one

but for general use slice works fine for gearing

[chrome quiver]

i know how to use a script, but not how to make one xd

[weak hamlet]

yo guys i just won myth belt with socket in raid

[near compass]

black powder is with 4+ targets right? saw some vids saying use it from 7+

[weak hamlet]

but cant find it in my bag/mail

any1 had this shit happen?

[weak hamlet]

ye

[near compass]

yeh tought so, do we need to rupture everything before cd's on first pull or just go ham with cd's

[sacred gull]

Can you confirm sub cleave source is from the character and not from the target ?

[granite kelp]

anyone know why some of the higher ranked sub rogues are running more vers over statting their crit more evenly? just for more survivability over doing more damage?

[hazy breach]

Nimble flurry is around the character

Sectech is around the target

[hazy breach]

Just sim your stuff and use what sims the highest

[granite kelp]

kk ty

[void ocean]

anyone here good with Plater? cant seem to have target resources displayed like Plexus energy bar and similar

[shy scarab]

dont you have it on his target frame?

[void ocean]

I dont think I did

[vagrant fulcrum]

any tips for dimmy as sub? we're getting to 2nd platform occasionally now - starting to think I should double check incase I missed any cool tips

[void ocean]

i have it when i use threat plates tho

[shy scarab]

insta pop CDS

[void ocean]

tho i think i figured it out, theres a UnitPower script where an npc id has to be added to show its power

wont know before i go to raid tho 😄

[iron fjord]

we're using the shuriken storm coup optimization only in shadow blades correct? What is the reason for that? To make sure it generates full cp? If so, it should be a dps gain to do this outside shadows blades, as long as i can generate max cp from it (in a large pull for example), yes?

[vagrant fulcrum]

you use it on 4+ targets generally too

[karmic harbor]

😏

[vagrant fulcrum]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[iron fjord]

reading must be hard, thanks mate

can't even fathom how i could read this command so many times and not register that info

[vagrant fulcrum]

it wasn't always this way

the 4t+ thing is newer

[iron fjord]

that's what i hoped to hear

[spare oar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[upbeat garden]

I watched a vid from Pilav and kussh was playing on it ,it was dawnbreaker 17 ,he did some crazy dps in certain pack ,40+ mil dmg ,how tf is he doing that ?

same with 1st pull 30+ mil

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fathom adder]

@upbeat garden big pull + prism/forge i guess. nothing secret or special to do

[upbeat garden]

I understand ,but I never went more than 30mil

he did a few pulls more than 40mil

[bitter dagger]

18stack of mythic prism is like a bazillion agility.

[upbeat garden]

also 1st pull of dawnbreaker there are only a few mobs ,he still did 40 mil dps

[analog granite]

So what do you in those 10 seconds before flag where you don't use finishers? Do you just press backstab over and over?

[hazy breach]

You dont get to press much as you have almost no energy

But yes

[analog granite]

Sensational

[fleet wharf]

Delicious backstab soup

[analog granite]

Would you be doing SS instead of backstab with enough targets? Or do you just SS until you cap CP's and then backstab?

[hazy breach]

Not sure if you mean shadowstrike or shuriken storm

But the backstab vs shadowstrike doesnt really matter on larger pulls, either is fine

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[fleet wharf]

Basically the point is to pool as many resources as possible. We press backstab to avoid capping and gather more sht stacks

[hazy breach]

Or wait you are specifically asking about the no finisher thing

That explicitly says singletarget

[analog granite]

I meant shuriken storm. How would you be shadowstriking? Shouldn't I be holding dance for flag at that point?

Oooh right

Misread it

Man picking up sub is something else

[upbeat garden]

I tried dk and hunter after playing sub for 2 months and I cant understand how blizzard thinks is ok to make certain classes require phd degree and others u just press 2-3 buttons or less and do more damage than a spec that requires actual prep

[hazy breach]

Thats why every class is BM hunter next expac

[analog granite]

I mean I'm specifically learning sub because I get bored of easier specs but it's still hard when starting from 0