subtlety

[keen dome]

they make us like haste

[left ledge]

why they change DM

[keen dome]

And then change warning signs

[steel zinc]

it is

our cdr is haste

[lilac stag]

Did you not want more rng?

[left ledge]

OH BOY

TIME TO HIT HASTE THRESHOLD

[keen dome]

just whyyyy

[left ledge]

"why didnt you have dance there"

"sry bro no PI"

[lilac stag]

GUYS WHAT IS SUB’S HASTE CAP?

[left ledge]

RIVETING gameplay

[swift tinsel]

alacrity flat haste

[fossil forge]

are we finally becoming a haste class gang

[ripe flame]

I HAVE 12867 HASTE IS THAT ENOUGH?

[lilac stag]

Is 34% haste ok?

[swift tinsel]

aoe blind gone

[steel zinc]

our whole spec cdr is now cdr. We get the windwalker treatment. We are now hastesubs

[swift tinsel]

LMFAO

[steel zinc]

we are nr1 pi target

[lilac stag]

I sim star weights and I need more crit

[left ledge]

seriously how are they gonna tie fkin shadow dance

to haste

[upper narwhal]

PI ME OR I DON'T GET CD'S BACK FOR AMP

[steel zinc]

gotta snack that pi for our normal alpha dungeons

[swift tinsel]

they made airborne baseline

[left ledge]

whats gonna happen if we get pi in lust

do we just dance 4 fucking times

???

[tepid trellis]

not a fan, but id have to actually play with it to have an actual opinion

[steel zinc]

look its not a bad thing. Haste was a omega dead stat for sub

[lilac stag]

We hit an apm outlaw wishes they had

[left ledge]

no no no no no

here is what shouldve happened

[strange chasm]

No flag is interesting

[steel zinc]

yeah but thats the goal

[left ledge]

the CDR shouldve just been REMOVED

[lucid jackal]

What the fuck dude? You don't want to overreact without trying it?

[upper narwhal]

they gave Sub haste and crit scaling at least

[warm marlin]

Rotten doesn’t guarantee crit anymore

[steel zinc]

whole spec cdr is haste

[warm marlin]

Hmm

[tepid trellis]

im too old to get mad

[fossil forge]

surely they removed the energy cost of feint right guys

[left ledge]

why not just REMOVE the cdr and then work on other ways to make haste good?

[lilac stag]

DID THEY BUFF BP?

[left ledge]

yes

they did

[keen dome]

yes

[left ledge]

unironically

[lilac stag]

Thank god

[left ledge]

LMAO

[swift tinsel]

nicu

[steel zinc]

idk I think the idea of haste being useful is good. We also get a way more flag dmg profile. Which is sad.

[keen dome]

And warning signs on top we brrrr

[lilac stag]

Mastery 0. Haste 95%

[icy mulch]

Wait this is on sub tree now?

[left ledge]

STACK MASTERY AND BP ONLY IN ST

[ripe flame]

Rogue tree

[swift tinsel]

class tree

[icy mulch]

[maiden oar]

oh this maybe fun

[swift tinsel]

BP scaling talent is interesting

[vale pine]

oh

danse is gutted?

[keen dome]

Yeah I think the BP talent is pretty cool

[left ledge]

yeppers

[swift tinsel]

I actually like new Finality a lot

[vale pine]

F

[left ledge]

time to play dark brew

[keen dome]

Yeah finality is cool

I think that's better

[swift tinsel]

Rotten change also good

[lilac stag]

Gloom blade haste stacking dark brew roll out

[maiden oar]

do u think they changed gloomblade to let u fw from the front yet

[swift tinsel]

bc you won't take rotten now lol

[left ledge]

finality is giving me weird vibes ngl

[vale pine]

i am surprised goremaws survived

[keen dome]

So far

[strange chasm]

Going to be very interesting for next expac

[ripe flame]

new tornado dropped too

[left ledge]

we need haste/crit/mastery now?

[strange chasm]

Lots of changes

[graceful osprey]

It’s okay it’s fine don’t worry, it’s only alpha, surely there will be big changes come beta

[swift tinsel]

really hoping it doesn't last past alpha phase 1

[warm marlin]

A bit sad about vers dying ngl

Being tanky is fun

[left ledge]

well

vers is a fake stat

[tepid trellis]

the real question is, how much SoD/dance/sectech scales with haste now

[left ledge]

actually does nothing

[icy mulch]

It’s just equip highest ilvl now

[swift tinsel]

honestly I think it'll be a shadowcraft, dark brew angle

[tepid trellis]

thats gonna be the actual deal breaker

[icy mulch]

[lilac stag]

But now we scale, just like WW

[swift tinsel]

no more rotten, maybe not danse

[left ledge]

ye thats what im wondering too

[keen dome]

I guess Danse will depend on how much it does

[maiden oar]

maybe apex talent is hidden info

[left ledge]

imagine in lust you just shit out dances and sectec

[strange chasm]

so no flag anymore is cool. So we just have blades and hopefully giga burst

[maiden oar]

that makes this make more sense

[strange chasm]

spec getting easier

[keen dome]

ye

[left ledge]

WAIT

THEY REMOVED FLAG?

WHAT

[outer parrot]

guys stop worrying about the dogshit class design, we get houses

[swift tinsel]

yeah its awesome

[vale pine]

secret has no cdr from cp anymore

[lilac stag]

Where is my prism talent!?!?

[ripe flame]

new dark shadow is something

[swift tinsel]

I'm really happy about flag going away

[lucid jackal]

Are you stupid

[left ledge]

OH NO

[lucid jackal]

Genuine question

[left ledge]

you disliked flag?

[strange chasm]

Oh damn. I kind of liked the cdr reduction

[swift tinsel]

YEah

[tepid trellis]

yeh i mean might be fun, who knows, but. im more worried about how bad it would feel without haste

[keen dome]

Yeah

Also how impactful Pi / Hero might end up being is going to be interesting

[left ledge]

no flag makes me sad

ngl

[tepid trellis]

supposedly its the same as with dance+SoD

[lilac stag]

[tepid trellis]

so scales with haste

[swift tinsel]

no sectech cdr hm

[lucid jackal]

LOLOL

[upper narwhal]

PI me so I get CDR so I have cd's lined for adds

[keen dome]

I'm super curious how it'll feel

[lilac stag]

Actually spit my water out. Thank you.

[swift tinsel]

maybe the cd is hasted

[keen dome]

Warning signs being 25% attack speed is cool

[keen dome]

Check the other one

[upper narwhal]

I cannot wait to try this

[vale pine]

which one?

[upper narwhal]

very different

[swift tinsel]

yeah with the swift slasher and warning signs change auto attack speed is going to hit 0.1

[keen dome]

Deepening

[slate marlin]

So sub now stacks haste mastery, fuck flag, and supposedly a lot of uptime on dance+sod

[strange chasm]

Does alpha go live today?

[slate marlin]

pretty good

[strange chasm]

Like will people be able to test this stuff

[left ledge]

ngl this makes me feel like our burst is going to get shit on @tepid trellis

and i dont like that

[swift tinsel]

Can't wait to see the damage graph

[left ledge]

i enjoyed being bursty

[opal basalt]

in about half an hour according to max

[keen dome]

What if we just go full attack speed.

[swift tinsel]

and how peaks/valley's change with the new tree

[keen dome]

We dance and melee 900000 times

[surreal knoll]

If this bricks our burst ima be so sad :c

[left ledge]

this is giving me kyrian shadowlands vibes

[vale pine]

this one is ... ye

[opal basalt]

maybe gloomblade played now

[vale pine]

more strike damage

[opal basalt]

[warm marlin]

Removing flag without buffing blades is interesting

[left ledge]

https://tenor.com/view/popcorn-minions-popcorn-day-laugh-gif-5026739

[warm marlin]

Maybe it’s baseline

[slate marlin]

we get more sod and dance casts

[graceful osprey]

What if…at high haste, we are essentially just bursting 24/7

[warm marlin]

Yes which moves damage out of our 90s

[opal basalt]

then we're not bursting anymore, are we?

[slate marlin]

yep

[lilac stag]

They we will be outlaw without burst

[keen dome]

Flag was originally haste I guess. They knew, all along.

[warm marlin]

Wait and dance only buffs shadowstrike damage

[icy mulch]

Crackshot gone just in time for sub to become the new flat damage spec

[left ledge]

guys

maybe....

we shouldve just kept the gloomblade stuff

[swift tinsel]

I really want to see what baseline abilities look like now

[keen dome]

Good news, everybody:

[swift tinsel]

bc there has to be some interesting shifts

[keen dome]

Shadowheart is still here

[opal basalt]

this is the moment where i'm really mad alpha is just given out to such a small circle of players

[keen dome]

Yeah same

[alpine wraith]

oh no i have been reading talents

[graceful osprey]

Oh thank goodness, sub is saved

[alpine wraith]

i need to call my doctor

my blood pressure

[wild hornet]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5pfgJSwjeXCsEDRJXqLGxJ

should i pick the trinket in this case and replace lily?
mythic belt is in my bags btw

[swift tinsel]

I'm assuming ShT baseline has to be different

with all the attack speed increases we're going to be swimming in stacks

like

[obtuse shard]

Guys, does feint work against ring in p3 dim?

[swift tinsel]

machine gun CP acquisition

[obtuse shard]

shadowquake

[graceful osprey]

It’s ok, no need to panic, by the time beta comes, things will be different

[steel zinc]

ya

just step demi over the ring

focus target step

[swift tinsel]

There's some weird changes but I'm very interested to see the new haste things in action

[weak hamlet]

how to do dmg in arakara?

[swift tinsel]

and also no Apex yet

really wanna see what they have to offer

[keen dome]

Yeah same

Maybe the Apex will make a lot of the changes make more sense

[steel zinc]

sub rogue will not be a burst spec and way more flat dmg profile. Less buttons etc.

[iron plover]

Don’t die before 1st boss

[weak hamlet]

check

im at stuck 9.5-10m overall this dung

[swift tinsel]

assassination ones are hm

[weak hamlet]

gapped by good dk/hunter

[iron plover]

I feel like that’s probably the limitation of the class

[shut ridge]

just dropping by for my contractually-obligated doomposting (I have not read a single line of changes)

[opal basalt]

i mean dk and hunt are just stronger than sub rn, no?

[iron plover]

Without going into where you’re using your CDs

[keen dome]

damn, the Assa apex is wild

[swift tinsel]

yeah

WW get a form of Tigereye Brew

loved that mastery

[keen dome]

Curious that Assa requires Kingsbane for the Apex, going off the talent tree

[swift tinsel]

Fdk requires FWF

[keen dome]

Super excited to see what Sub's are

[swift tinsel]

so it looks like some fo the talents are getting required

[keen dome]

yeah

I assume ours'll be SecTec

Like it has to be right

[graceful osprey]

Apex talents going to buff BP

[swift tinsel]

if apex talent is just adding CDR back to sectech I'm going to throw up

[keen dome]

The transmog change makes Midnight goated anyway

[jagged rover]

idk how I feel about haste scaling on sub. Obv early and we need to wait and see but seems weird, but I understand why

[lucid jackal]

It's not even been a day and we already pre complaining

[swift tinsel]

really hoping apex affects sectech tho there's some cool stuff they can do

[keen dome]

I can't imagine it won't

Like, it's gonna be SecTec or Dance. Those are our core things to me.

What if they give us that button back from uh.. Cata? The cooldown reset button

[swift tinsel]

the others look like they're affecting/revolving around a cooldown so it would track with either

[maiden oar]

apex makes us kyveza wahoo

[iron plover]

Bring back sectech animation making us go up into the air

[swift tinsel]

preparation?

[keen dome]

Ye, prep

[jagged rover]

yeah, those 2 abilities are sub, can't see it being something different, unless they are trying to add more strike damage which would be dumb with our mastery

[swift tinsel]

that could be really neat

[ripe flame]

More generator dmg to interact with Dar Shadow and rotten

[swift tinsel]

like sectech has the prep effect

which is kinda like Dust

[keen dome]

If one of the Apex nodes is just "Your SecTec animation is now Ky'veza's frontal move" and nothing else I'll be happy

[warm marlin]

I will be sad if it does end up moving back to flat style damage profile

[swift tinsel]

scroll up to me saying I'm excited for changes

[warm marlin]

Can’t tell yet obv but it does look that way a bit

[swift tinsel]

yeah, as cool as it is to see haste interactions I'm a bit sad we're losing our agnostic relationship with it

and seeing a lot of power shifted out of dance

[keen dome]

That's my feeling too. Flatter, 'easier' (i.e., less complex, which is good) and more power from PI / Heroism

But the Apex might be all about burst.

[hot ibex]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I'm very interested to see what it ends up being

[maiden oar]

i like burst yeah

[placid crown]

UFFFFFF the nerf

[maiden oar]

i picked this spec up in the first place bc it had crazy burst

[swift tinsel]

we get crit damage in spec tree

so its kinda okay

[keen dome]

Warning Signs is really interesting to me as a change, though

[swift tinsel]

for sure

[placid crown]

i hate play with more rng

[keen dome]

Because going from 6% haste to 25% attack speed is really interesting.

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'm thinking ShT has to be changed

[keen dome]

Yeah

[glad jewel]

hey guys what is the correct way to sim sub rogue in a m+ scenario? dslice?

[swift tinsel]

bc that also means potentially more 1k Cuts resets

[keen dome]

Haste scaling + more attack speed (Slice and Dice node, Warning signs, etc)

[swift tinsel]

and more ShT stacks

[keen dome]

Also it's possible the CB change is 'cos we're getting crit SecTec in Apex

Which would track, imo

[swift tinsel]

but we also lose CDR so the ShT thing is interesting

[keen dome]

Yeah. I am curious how the haste scaling will work though.

or rather, feel.

[fossil forge]

can someone give quick tldr i cba reading everything

[maiden oar]

what if they dont change sht

[keen dome]

Haste

[swift tinsel]

Well now that sectech will be cast less having guaranteed crit on it in dance is more seeable

imo

[keen dome]

Yeah

[graceful osprey]

Surely cold blooded killer will make our finishers glow up

[fossil forge]

nah but no shot they actually buff bp

[keen dome]

Maybe there'll be an interaction with SecTec + Dance + Blades.

Because then that could be our burst condition.

[swift tinsel]

honestly though, having all secondaries have talent interactions is cool

[warm marlin]

Well flag was an IMMENSE part of the damage amp to finishers

[keen dome]

Yeah

[keen dome]

Agreed

[warm marlin]

And dance lost it’s damage buff portions

[hoary stag]

cold blood removed

[proper temple]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[fossil forge]

stat prio shifts to haste mastery crit probs no

[keen dome]

Who knows

Maybe!

[placid crown]

are we going to play with more haste ?

[swift tinsel]

Eh I'd see haste/crit > mastery > vers

[keen dome]

Read the rest of the talent tree for Sub

Because yes

[fossil forge]

nahh but we are gonna be shanking with 4000atk speed

welcome to london

[swift tinsel]

haste-based cdr for sod and dance

[keen dome]

Didn't we have a talk about funny attack speed stuff the other week

[lucid jackal]

Imma still blow u up

[keen dome]

Was I an accidental mad prophet

hm, does anything in DS interact with auto-attacks..

[lilac stag]

It’s a dumb fucking talent on live. Good

[alpine wraith]

im sad at first sight because it seems we will have less burst but the spec will likely still work

[swift tinsel]

we do not speak of it

[alpine wraith]

and be fine or whatever

[keen dome]

Unless it's in our Apex

[swift tinsel]

whao

sin DS gets mark from garrote

not ambush

[keen dome]

oh, that's a good change

[maiden oar]

i thought apexes only came out late into alpha how come u can see sins rn

[swift tinsel]

you made me look lol

[maiden oar]

did they change their mind

[wild hornet]

does this smell like socket

i really cant decide tbh

[swift tinsel]

DN IS 5 CP

;LASKDJFA;LKSDJAF

[keen dome]

huh

[lilac stag]

I’ll wait for the 7 hour YouTube from Whispyr

[swift tinsel]

Its not 7cp evisc anymore

[keen dome]

Yeah, that's a cool change

I've got a plan

[swift tinsel]

okay now just add BP

[jagged rover]

it def feels like they are removing a lot of the skill ceiling from it. I get it, but definitely want to see what the final picture looks like

[lilac stag]

Let me Funnel DN with BP

[swift tinsel]

hm now flawless form is 4%

[jagged rover]

capped at 5 stacks too

[keen dome]

Yeah

[swift tinsel]

but capped

yeah

don't love that

[lilac stag]

so RS required

[keen dome]

Yeah, I think so

[keen dome]

It means Coup always gives full stacks though

[jagged rover]

and the change to danse, also feels like just removing the complexity

[lucid jackal]

Danse barely did anything to the rotation

[keen dome]

Danse just confused people, imo.

[lucid jackal]

It's a worse talent but it's not like danse was some insanely complex talent

[placid crown]

isnt it very shitty ?

[jagged rover]

yeah I agree

[keen dome]

"Do I play around Danse stacks" or doing Sec as the final finisher

[jagged rover]

just the general trend from looking at talents

[lucid jackal]

Danse was effectively a passive talent that people would always ask if they had to play around it

[keen dome]

Yeah, absolutely

[swift tinsel]

yeah, there's some interesting implications with no-cdr sectech and dances so I'm curious how it'll all go

[jagged rover]

plus side, maybe I can get rid of backstab from my stealth bar?

[keen dome]

Ye, same.

Also I am really happy with these damage numbers

I am a big fan of smaller dam numbers

[lilac stag]

Acro gone completely now? I see swift slasher in its place.

[placid crown]

So we will have 34 points for both trees + 12 points to get the full heroic tree ?

[swift tinsel]

it looks like it

[keen dome]

Yeah, now just more STABBIN'

[lilac stag]

more haste

I wonder if we will actually be able to use 1 gear set

And just swap weapons

[swift tinsel]

losing crackshot means I'll probs check out outlaw so I wouldn't mind having one set

[alpine wraith]

depends on how things go

[keen dome]

I'm still suspicious of that Outlaw in their trailers using two daggers.

[lucid jackal]

Acro is in outlaw now

[lilac stag]

haven’t gotten that far. Thanks!

I would be down for dagger law

[keen dome]

I don't know the outlaw tree well enough to see the differences so I'm waiting for smarter people to tell me

[clever delta]

not really impressed

[lucid jackal]

Rtb got reworked

[keen dome]

My hope, my dream, my desire is that it's hinting at them dropping weapon restrictions for dagger / 1h melee.

[lucid jackal]

Uhuh got removed

Outlaw is a totally different spec

[keen dome]

Aw, I like Uhuh.

[vale pine]

Basically what i noticed from the talents:

• Haste is now tried very hard to be made relevant for subtlety, with symbols and potentially other spells now having hasted cds (cd gets lower with haste)
• Most damage amps from shadow dance is gone, which means lower burst
• Flagellation is purged, which was one of our strongest offensive cooldowns
• A lot of builder epowering talents, which needs to be explored more, given that subtlety is a finisher focused spec

[keen dome]

Is crackshot gone?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

at least from the tree

[lilac stag]

Give outlaw the fury treatment. “Old man talent to slow the apm down and make it hit harder”

[keen dome]

wow

[swift tinsel]

it's what drove me away from liking outlaw so I'm personally happy to see it gone

[keen dome]

Ye I didn't like it but I am sad for those who really liked that playstyle

[swift tinsel]

also valorstones gone

W

[keen dome]

HUGE

[iron plover]

Awww I liked the big burst window playstyle of sub

[dull sierra]

Where is that change

The valorstone one

[vale pine]

for other specs

one thing you notice is

[swift tinsel]

Ion said it in the QA

[vale pine]

how stealth interactions are now gone

so no more vanish as offensive cooldown

[alpine wraith]

so now without a trace is 100% useless for general pve

[lilac stag]

No icons showing in outlaw tree right? Jus the tooltips work in the tree

[alpine wraith]

and becomes a pvp talent

[swift tinsel]

ngl this kinda owns for sin

[keen dome]

Huge w

[summer lynx]

Idk I feel super underwhelmed by the changes already posted.

[bright elk]

Idk how I feel about this, really like the cdr on finishers version

[vale pine]

yep

hasted cooldowns feel a bit wild

[alpine wraith]

we cant know until we try on those sadly

[summer lynx]

Do you guys have a link for the talent changes?

[alpine wraith]

and even then it makes a bit cuck on first raid tiers

[misty condor]

Improved Garrote still seems to have a stealth interaction. Wouldn't we want to snapshot and spread this with the new Crimson Tempest?

[alpine wraith]

if those exist

[keen dome]

They should give us Alpha because we're Sub rogues and there's like, six of us

[summer lynx]

This is the sub rogue section???

[misty condor]

Fuu specifically mentioned other specs

[keen dome]

We're all rogues here

[sage pecan]

CB being a passive is cool looking

[alpine wraith]

it is very likely some of us get alpha

[keen dome]

ye I hope I do

so I can ask for a poison toggle

[alpine wraith]

and im quite surprised sub got changes so soon

[vale pine]

possible something they forgot to change

[hollow spear]

Really wondering how much haste actually impacts cdr

[vale pine]

we will know once things are a bit more stable on alpha

early versions will be rough

[hollow spear]

If we still stick to two dances during blades, which I assume, then there might be some weird breakpoint stuff going on

Where more haste won't realistically get you more casts during a fight of x min duration

Therefore making it worse

[alpine wraith]

it also makes proc trinkets quite weird to work with dance

and sod

[hollow spear]

Without apex talents it's really hard to say where this is all going, they could make or break the spec

[alpine wraith]

yea apex and tier

as they changed so you get tier on first raid

[swift tinsel]

wait fatal intent yoinked from DS

nice

[misty condor]

I can't imagine it being any better than 1:1 where 10% Haste grants 10% CDR. That doesn't sound very appetizing

Which begs the question of why they bothered to change Warning Signs if we actually want more haste now

[swift tinsel]

because attack speed has other implications

[full yacht]

i hated pressing this god bless its passive now

[sharp torrent]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[misty condor]

Which is fine, but then why not combine Swift Death and Deepening Shadows into one talent, then just give us this new version of Warning Signs somewhere else in the tree?

[swift tinsel]

because they still have to fill out a giant talent tree

combining swift death and deepening into one talent doesn't really have anything to do with warning signs change

[slow gorge]

Rework rogue?

[wet echo]

full haste spec in 12.0?

[swift tinsel]

PE was also changed

[wet echo]

xdd

[tidal python]

At first I thought the changes were a bit disappointing since it doesn't look like we got much, but at least the changes seem good. Sub feels kinda useless outside of CDs, so shifting the power a little bit out of dance is probably going to make the spec feel a bit better when you're not dancing. Making the builders more impactful goes in the same direction, we don't currently care that much about how much damage they deal, we just want the combo points.

[limber relic]

Seems like other classes are getting good changes and we're just mehhh

[swift tinsel]

we also don't have apex talents yet

[fossil forge]

6 coups in cds

[swift tinsel]

which could change a lot

plus no new hero talents

which could change even more

[hazy breach]

Im fine with the cooldown changes

Removing every single damage amp we have during cds is weird though

Not sure how to feel about that one

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'm wondering if they'll make their way back in via apex

the cdr changes are interesting

and I'm curious about how everything will fit together now

[misty condor]

It would still feel really bad if they just took our burst away then gave it back to us in the apex talents, that feels very lazy

[swift tinsel]

I mean it looks like they're bringing our baseline up

so if thats true and most of our burst is reintroduced via apex that's a net gain

but it all remains to be seen

[heavy compass]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[tidal python]

I like the idea of dance being good because it allows you to cast a builder that hits super hard and generates more combo points, instead of it being good because it has 10 thousand damage amplifiers tied to it

[swift tinsel]

Could be the day we see a Blades follow-up talent

[tidal python]

Shadowstrike should hit hard by default

[swift tinsel]

which is a very cool design space that hasn't really been explored at all

assassinations apex are based around KB so its possible we get something similar with blades, dance or sectech

[lucid jackal]

Guys wow is back

[swift tinsel]

Housing alone has me interested

ww lose SEF, W

[keen dome]

https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-gb/news/24235745

they put this up, and it's an interesting read

[swift tinsel]

ooo nice

perfect read for lunchtime lol

[twilit oracle]

Does anyone know why his secret tech is hitting for way more than mine? Like it's a massive amount to be different

[meager coyote]

I see thistle tea is unchanged for rogues

what a life

[still vector]

Could be a lot of things like CB usage in CD windows. Different levels of verse. I’d sim your toon and see what your gear is compared to theirs.

[keen dome]

@swift tinsel We’re introducing an additional three talent points to the base class tree to be spent within the first two nodes. This means that the point requirement to unlock the final node will be increasing from twenty to twenty-three, but this will not come into effect until the Midnight expansion release and will not change during the pre-expansion content update.

[still vector]

I’m just telling you what I would do, but those are some basic things

[twilit oracle]

Could it be that i'm using prism at 0 stacks and he's using max myth lily?

[still vector]

umm yeah using prism at zero is unadvised imo.

I’d let prism go off at your 3 min

[twilit oracle]

just don't press it in opener?

[still vector]

personally if I have no stacks I wouldn’t bother.

[swift tinsel]

hm

[still vector]

however someone might correct my statement.

[swift tinsel]

so these?

[keen dome]

Yeah

[willow bobcat]

do we not have our capstone talents known yet? Are we gonna be waiting until two weeks before launch to know what we get again?

[keen dome]

Or maybe they mean the first two 'gates'?

So..

[swift tinsel]

oh

[still vector]

What’s a max mythic lily give you, 10k mastery? That’s a big jump compared to maybe 2.5k strength.

[swift tinsel]

if its gates that's

slightly more okay

ig

[keen dome]

Yeah, I think it means this set

[swift tinsel]

initially the thought was "hey we can get tea and cb" but with that new clarification I'm hoping they take a few looks at the class tree

[keen dome]

Yeah.

I'm not really sure what we'd end up taking

[swift tinsel]

not the most compelling options for us

[keen dome]

woo, Shadowheart.....

[still vector]

I just hope they make tea have the ability to toggle on or off usage

[twilit oracle]

Yeah I put my heroic lily on and was above him so could just be trinket ig

[spice matrix]

"Find Weakness is now a buff instead of a debuff, causing your attacks to ignore 30% Armor." how late am I

so much to read about

[still vector]

Yeah, that’s probably it. I mess with the dummies a lot and do different scenarios.

Like some pulls, especially for like soul binder I hold my prism until the ads.

[twilit oracle]

I have myth sigil of the cosmic hunt atm, do you think it would be better to rock my lily with prism, and use prism during amp in araz?

[still vector]

having two on use isn’t great because of GCD.

[swift tinsel]

wait is FW a buff?

did I miss something?

[twilit oracle]

Fairs

i'll just use sigil and lily

[still vector]

yeah, I mean I guess you can. You just have to wait the 30 second window for the other one to get off cool down.

For me, I use prism and antenna

[swift tinsel]

yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

also 150% Strike dmg buff

huge

[twilit oracle]

inspect element

[sharp lake]

where can we read those alpha patch notes

[still vector]

Wait, what where did you see that?

[swift tinsel]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/midnight-alpha-development-notes-378688

FW being a buff is actually huge

holy

[sharp lake]

ty

[swift tinsel]

actually quite surprised no ShT changes

[keen dome]

Yeah, so if it's a buff and it's on us

that makes everything SO MUCH better

[hazy breach]

#midnight-subtlety

[keen dome]

oh, rad

[karmic harbor]

skyreach

https://tenor.com/view/oopsies-ohno-gif-25793283

[earnest jetty]

New sub rogue looking like ret pally

simplified to a point of being boring

[stoic pier]

feeling the same reading the new abilities, they just killed most of mini games

[candid mural]

who else gets the feeling they're gonna take away our burst in midnight?

[misty condor]

It looks like they already have

[wet echo]

rip sub it's been nice knowing you all

[surreal knoll]

No more AOE blind which was our only aoe stop, sad

[tepid trellis]

its baseline

[surreal knoll]

Oh really? I missed that, that’s sweet then

[autumn pawn]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[autumn pawn]

hey! is it possible to see the number of charges with macro ? (like right icon)

[misty condor]

use "#showtooltip Symbols of Death" at the beginning of the macro

[stable helm]

Ive been seeing a couple rogues use Bubbling wax on nexus-king, on to something or padding metres?

[autumn pawn]

thanks goat

[swift tinsel]

it sims higher generally

than 2x whetstone

[stable helm]

guess i gotta go down and pick some kobolds

[turbid zodiac]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[stoic pier]

Find Weakness is now a buff instead of a debuff, causing your attacks to ignore 30% Armor.

It should always been like this

[stable helm]

followup question, how tf do i sim bubbling when it isnt in the dropdown?

[swift tinsel]

#tc-research message

grab the line from there and paste it below your simc string

[stable helm]

king shit

thanks

[karmic harbor]

last rekill before infinite extend

we got it done

[plush jackal]

what is this.

why

[stoic pier]

less buttons

[vestal escarp]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NOT FLAG

(good riddance, bye bye SL)

[obtuse dirge]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[fallow nimbus]

DN with just 5+ is a good qol change

[lethal gale]

Am i reading the new shuriken tornado right? If we were to case storm it passively casts another 1.2 seconds later? Thats kinda cool

[plush jackal]

they fucked sublety really good ngl

[fossil forge]

[karmic harbor]

i took those boots too to upgrade my hc soul hunters boots

[fossil forge]

yoink

[fallow nimbus]

so what does the coup change mean?

looks like blizz tries to make haste a thing

[plush jackal]

forcing it

kinda

[cinder axle]

no double sec tech in bbig windows now?

[plush jackal]

nope

[cinder axle]

30 sec cdr baseline?

wtf

[plush jackal]

ur shadow dance now reduces cd based on haste somehow

lmao

[fallow nimbus]

yeah wtf

[plush jackal]

make it make sense

this way sublety wont be the "hard" class anymore tbh

[fallow nimbus]

just wait for the haste cap and unless you have that cap it plays like ass

[plush jackal]

fire mage 2.0

where u have to have 40k haste or you aint doing shit xD

[warped ferry]

So they’re trying to make sub less rotational challenging and increase its apm?

[plush jackal]

seems like it

[warped ferry]

From what I’m seeing. It’s less big chunky hits from dmg modifiers and more consistent dmg windows

[mental dune]

isnt sub basically just the exact same?
besides the whole haste scaling

[hazy breach]

#midnight-subtlety Basically they gutted finishers and ultra buffed shadowstrike to compensate

[mental dune]

and then the random shuriken tornado rework

[alpine wraith]

and we got some more random bs

rng

[mental dune]

woah whered that channel come from
at least we arent outlaw
i read the changes n now im scared to go in there

[soft kayak]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[fallow nimbus]

i think our gcd stays 1sec but cds scale with haste instead of cdr

[dense coyote]

any alphainfo on rogue yet?

[fallow nimbus]

that shadowheart is still there is funny

man with dance giving supercharger we now dance and need a boss reset

[mental dune]

with the haste scaling you need what? maybe a 30-35 second pull timer every time?

[alpine wraith]

just think why without a trace is there

[bright sundial]

it weird that they change alot of talents to buff strike while also changing tornado to use more storms???

[fallow nimbus]

dance resets with boss resets

but if it will do that with midight we don't know

[mental dune]

ok so either boss reset or just long pull timer
either way mildly inconvenienced

[cinder axle]

So in midnight our dmg will come from 1 sec tech and then the buffed shadow strikes?

sounds so lame to me xD

and we will need haste?

[mental dune]

im really curious how it feels
like with the haste scaling changes + gutting finishers it seems like kinda nothing?
as in i cant really think of a single thing that makes sub feel unique

[cinder axle]

maybe the apex talent does something so we get more cdr on tech^^

[mental dune]

i was gonna say i wish the apex talent is just the tier set baked into a talent
but double coup doesnt matter if no cdr so

[fallow nimbus]

shadowed finishers is now extra dmg instead of shadow, that is neat

midnight is a assa deathstalker expansion

[fossil forge]

outlaw

[fallow nimbus]

ngl i would play outlaw with less apm

[fossil forge]

who knows maybe the sub changes will be poggers

[fallow nimbus]

end of expac and we stack haste to dance every 20sec or what?

[mental dune]

idk if i feel particularly excited to play assa with no addons tbh

def gravitating towards outlaw for sure after rereading the changes

[fallow nimbus]

man if i can't track simple cds/buffs/debuffs with wa anymore and have to build my ui with blizz default thing i will be really upset

[cinder axle]

well its more then 6 months till Midnight goes live so prob there will be more changes 😄

[mental dune]

i dont really think sub needed that much tracking of stuff
so if it feels nice then i have no problems with addons being removed

[fallow nimbus]

look at him cope, it's over at this point

[mental dune]

but if it has to be assa then its real doomer hours
with the outlaw changes maybe no addons isnt too bad

[karmic harbor]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[magic ravine]

Finally i can shelf my normal prism, big things

[tidal python]

Rumours say it'll release in late february

It's probably not that far away

[fathom adder]

i read it somewhere but don`t remember, when macroing cb to sectec as a seperate keybind, what to do when the macro stops working?

[tepid trellis]

relog

[fathom adder]

thank you

[serene notch]

Sims say myth lily better then heroic forge. Anyone have experience between the two and does that match reality?

Seems intuitively wrong

Feel like I would prefer the huge main stat boost during burst

Assuming with other trinket being prism

[cinder axle]

would be nice

[plush glen]

Did the way sims handle double on-use change? It's simming below prism + antenna for me but I don't think it was 2 weeks ago

[hazy breach]

It has not changed no

Its still using it properly

[plush glen]

inch resting

[raw flicker]

If you have Coup the Grace up and Dance is about to come (lets say 3 seconds). worth to wait?

[plush glen]

Yeah you can hold coup by finishing with BP

I think the number is like 20 seconds you can hold it

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[plush glen]

oh only hold for 20s before big cds

[rustic mortar]

i dont know about that one

[hazy breach]

#midnight-subtlety

[raw flicker]

still didnt get. worth or not keep Coup up until Dance is ready? and what is the timeframe that I can hold it to not be consider a dps loss

the APL just says the 20s rule related to flag: "actions.finish+=/coup_de_grace,if=debuff.fazed.up&cooldown.flagellation.remains>=20|fight_remains<=10"

[sick sand]

how to sim bubbling wax?

[candid raven]

The Fractillus trinket finally dropped

Now I have no excuses for bad logs anymore

[urban egret]

double on use like that is only used to like use a fully stack netherprism right?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[heady summit]

Hello to my new haste friends 🙂

[modest spear]

what is this vaultt, what do I do

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6Mj9ARJsFBHzivqzGjZ227

[orchid rampart]

when do you press Evis over BP? i feel my DMG is better in bigger pulls with evis spam over BP spam

[stiff kiln]

haste sub les goo

[hazy breach]

#midnight-subtlety, but the TL:DR is that finishers no longer do any damage its all in strike and you cant really dance outside of blades anymore

[heady summit]

Haste<Mastery<Versa<Crit?

lol

[solemn sonnet]

I doubt we prio haste with the current amount we'd need for it to be relevant

[tepid trellis]

prolly no mastery lol

finishers do auto attack dmg

[wintry holly]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[serene notch]

With the philosophy and direction any chances they address FW being totally lame and not natively trackable

[keen dome]

It's a buff now, not a debuff, so it should be a lot easier to track

[serene notch]

Also glad the killed CB and turned it passive, the button is the poster child for btn bloat

[dire saddle]

\What's the current consensus on this future sub? They slaughter us or no?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[serene notch]

Will reserve judgement till it’s in my hands

So much time for them to tweak between now and launch

[keen dome]

Purple status is uncertain. We may be less purple due to less dances. Which would be sad.

[last gate]

what weapon enchaants we run on sub?

[serene notch]

No dance outside of blades (assuming no other adjustments) that’s a huge void of do nothing. One has to assume massive adjustments

[serene notch]

Sim it can vary

[last gate]

wtf is this shit lol

[last gate]

dungeon slice?

[serene notch]

Yea if your simming for M+

[strange chasm]

This is cap right

[last gate]

they runed all 3 spec of rogue

TO MAKE IT EASIER

and also making one button rotation easier*

to work around it

[night sparrow]

!king

Anyone body has the refill weak aura bugged on Salhadaar ?

the cp refill from ShT + symbols

When on platforms

[mental dune]

thats what i thought at first but outlaw players actually seem the happiest ive ever seen them

[tidal beacon]

is there any reason not to macro symbols and shadow dance?

[last gate]

dude outlaw is a pain to play and its play style wasnt rewarding so thats why they are happy

it was just hard to play but not rewarding at all

your whole dps was gamble

if youre lucky you deal dmg if not youre racing healer

[mental dune]

true but only to an extent
the way youre making it sound like is similar to those tft takes that say the game is “90% luck and 10% skill” which is just verifiably wrong

[mental dune]

during blades sometimes you get bad rng and need to dance evis then symbols
otherwise you either cant have dance up the whole blades window or cant have a supercharged sectec

[tidal beacon]

ok that makes sense

so I was reading on wowhead "After you've cast Flagellation Icon Flagellation you want to press Shadow Dance Icon Shadow Dance and utilize Premeditation Icon Premeditation before casting Shadow Blades Icon Shadow Blades." does that mean in aoe opener I need to fire 1 shadowstrike prior to pushing shadow blades?

[mental dune]

basically the only way you interact with the premeditation talent is just that the first builder after shadow dance will be backstab

[tidal beacon]

after your burst rotation with blade dance etc... when your between burst I was reading you do no more then 2 shadow dance while you wait for cds...should I be delaying use of my shadow dance there until sectech comes back up? this is outside of the burst

sometimes have bad rng and it's not back up immediatly

[mental dune]

yeah as long as youre not overcapping charges of dance you can just hold till sectec comes back up

[inner bluff]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[stone hound]

🙂

[manic island]

really dont trust them not to fuck up sub during these mass prunings

[mental dune]

i mean based on the current changes that were revealed it seems they already fucked it
at least in regards to what i enjoy about the spec

[manic island]

sigh

the mass simplification idea seems like a mistake, most classes are okay

[mental dune]

doesnt even really feel like its been made that much more approachable
but i might be wrong
current sub really clicked with the sort of spec i excel at

[manic island]

dooming abit about them breaking combat addons too

[mental dune]

that was actually the part i was most fine with
at least on sub
after giving it a good thought there wasnt really much i HAD to track with a WA

[manic island]

not necessarily for sub just in general

[mental dune]

yeah for sure

[manic island]

i dont have much hope their latent UI will pick up the slack

idk maybe it'll be fine

[mental dune]

i think the intension is to scale down the load of stuff to pay attention to
at least going off the increase in kick duration

[manic island]

sure but how long will it take them to actually get it good

lmao

half the expansion prob

ngl i just hate change

[mental dune]

oh yeah 100%
i think first season will be ROUGH
n then season 2 will be pretty playable

kinda similar to tww tbh
like m+ season 1 with the 15 second death penalty + cc not counting for interrupts

[manic island]

specially when im used to something

i hear that sub is a flat dmg profile now?

idk i havnt looked into it

[alpine wraith]

it is a bit different

you will still have cds just they shifted things around

you can just read the channel and see

[mental dune]

it just seems kinda w e i r d
even ignoring the whole decision to make everything scale with haste
the decision to make finishers weaker and builders stronger just doesnt make sense to me

[alpine wraith]

the haste thing is even weirder because with how high cds are

it just does not give extra meaningful uses

idk time to sleep

sad day

i also didnt drop shit on reclear

[mental dune]

oh yeah saying "even ignoring stuff scale with haste" is a BIG ask
the shuriken tornado change is fine i guess
macabre is also fine
everything else i just dont get

[manic island]

talking about the swift slasher talent?

and supercharger is on shadow dance instead of symbols, why is that

seems unnecessary

blind not being aoe also is just a nerf

[hazy breach]

#midnight-subtlety

But blind is aoe by default

[manic island]

ah

[stoic pier]

Guys, what is the mythic raid boss yall think is good to try pug after the first two (Plexus, Soulbinder)? I think loom would be nice to get the myth dagger but i dont know how are the pugs doing

[graceful crown]

damn they want us to build haste so bad jesus

[wispy crystal]

does sTec spread our poisons on other targets btw?

e.g. crippling / atrophic poison to the mobs around it

or does nimble flurry spread it?

[hazy breach]

Neither spread our poison

BP and storm do

Blade flurry for outlaw does though

[wispy crystal]

for Mythic Araz, my guild is progressing on it.

Should i take the talent that slows the adds?

shuriken storm has 30% slow

[tidal marsh]

fuck no

You have like nothing to remove to path to it IIRC

and it's reeeeeeally not necessary

[graceful crown]

hello fellow future haste and crit lovers

[graceful osprey]

Is it over for sub or do I still need to take more Copium?

[crystal atlas]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[crystal atlas]

FOr prism do you pop it with CDs or do you hold for stack at start of pull?

currently have prism lilly and priory trinket

for on use

[hazy breach]

The message right above yours explains it

[urban egret]

hes askin if its his only on use?

[crystal atlas]

mainly if on pull if I only use prism do I just send it or send it the following CDS when it has stacks

Just got prism so I am not sure but prism and mythic pace maker sim highest for me

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[meager coyote]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[long marlin]

!guide

!fuu

[tribal blade]

hrm some of these changes are weird

does this screw up our cd rotation

[bleak night]

ban him

[vagrant sinew]

youre banned

[glass ridge]

Do you use Shuriken Storm between the regular and 4-Set Bonus casts of Coup de Grace if you proc max cp off of your shadow techniques?

[hazy breach]

During blades or if you have 4+ mobs

[glass ridge]

even if youre at max cp, still press before second coup?

[lilac pendant]

Anyone has tested sub on ptr?

[lilac pendant]

No

[glass ridge]

tyty

[shell scroll]

Hi! I'm trying to help a player in my guild who's been struggling. What things in particular should I be looking for in logs?

[long marlin]

is there an approximate time where we should stop casting dance to get 2x dances in our cds? I could swear last season if I stopped casting dance with 30 secs left on flag it would line up perfectly But now I feel like thats no the case anymore

[hazy breach]

30s should be more than fine

[long marlin]

hmm odd, I feel like I go into flag with 1 charge and 40 secs remaining on the 2nd charge and I get like 7 secs in between my dances during blades

must be doing something wrong

[short radish]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[flint jay]

i should always Coup-shuriken - second coup?

[hazy breach]

Assuming you need to build combo points

[flint jay]

yea if i already have cp buld up no need right

[hazy breach]

You'd only do it if you need combo points AND either:

• A. You have shadow blades OR
• B. You have 4 or more targets

[flint jay]

so in ST only in Shadow blaades

[hazy breach]

Yes

[flint jay]

thanks

its cuz i dont know what im missing or doing wrong in my rotation

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jRrYhfyKCWkZcvHT?fight=1&type=casts&source=11&view=timeline

[urban egret]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[urban egret]

whats the shadow dance macro do btw

[plush roost]

these timers

making me feel a certain kinda way

[obtuse shard]

In term of prog p3 dim, is it better for 18 stack prism > forge > 18 stack prism or I should swap forge for passive trinket? We were 8% best pull tho so i dont think it matter much but still want to min max

[short radish]

i think with all this holding

passive + prism is rising

[obtuse shard]

Yeah I afk for 30s in p1 so no point to send prism in 2nd flag in p1

[stone flume]

whats the damage loss from using sectec and CB in the first dance

im a noob with sub atm

[wispy crystal]

Where can we see the new rogue changes ?

[short radish]

[urban egret]

yo any1 wanna explain what the shadowdance macro does ive never seen a macro written like that befoe

[livid hamlet]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[woeful slate]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush roost]

why is BM in this game

[wispy crystal]

To reward high skill cap players

[wheat sentinel]

How are people getting 9mil parses on araz? like lol my highest so far has been like 8mil and that was like, crazy luck.

[mental shore]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[pearl swan]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[wispy crystal]

Wow the sub changes in midnight looks really promising

Glad to see the developers putting in some effort for rogue design!

[haughty rose]

i'm worried we lose the core essence of this spec and the reason it became my main which is high burst

i also loved not giving a shit about BL

[mental shore]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility >= Critical Strike >>> Haste

[lilac stag]

Don’t worry. Midnight will fix sub

[plush roost]

Mfw whiteswing os 30% of my boss damage

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/rogue-warcraft-wow-gif-11008475980691198481

[plush roost]

They just took wod snd and made it haste instead of mastery

[lilac stag]

mmhm

[plush roost]

I mean lowkey i wantes haste scaling all season

So

This is my fault

[lilac stag]

Can someone please pull sephuz back

[plush roost]

It was...

[lilac stag]

We need jesus

[plush roost]

⚠️ A Warning Sign(s) ⚠️

[short radish]

wtf this is your fault!

[plush roost]

Fuck im sorry i just wanted warning signs rupture max to woem

Work

[chrome palm]

oh no

ban me

[plush roost]

Whatd u do stinky

[fickle jacinth]

can ytou not macro cold blood and Sec tec anymore?

[wild vine]

Im kinda curious how it will play out, wanted some haste scaling all the time aswell and it somewhat makes sense, but I guess it also depends on the scope of it

As long as its not overwhelmingly good bringing back the spam gameplay

And just adds some value

[chrome palm]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[fickle jacinth]

ahhh ok thanks

caught me lol

[autumn pawn]

where can i see the changes?

[tepid trellis]

Pins

[round latch]

factual reality

[round latch]

https://tenor.com/view/coney-excited-fullmooncrazy-gif-21330041

[upbeat sorrel]

you guys ever use wound posion in halls for the mini boss

does it actually do anything

[limpid sage]

it's busted on the miniboss yes

especially if you go 5 stack talent

[alpine wraith]

5 stack and extra effect

the boi wont even know what hit him

[limpid sage]

lets say he heals for 100m (it's way more than that though) and you have 3x wound poison on him - that's equivalent to dealing 24m dmg on him for basically no tradeoff

40m if you have 5 stacks

[limpid sage]

what extra effect

[alpine wraith]

you have it by default pathing to that one

[limpid sage]

ahhhhhh

[alpine wraith]

but wound is a dmg one so

the mortal is non damaging

[limpid sage]

ye I checked online what the % was

felt like it wasn't true that it's only 8%

[remote shuttle]

? No more flag in Midnight?

[alpine wraith]

yea it is dead

[limpid sage]

no more lots of things

no more dancing outside cds :DD

[remote shuttle]

🥲

[alpine wraith]

well lots of changes but you can check the channel

[remote shuttle]

No time atm to check all the tree... Are we Happy or not hacha?

Will give a deeper look at lunchtime

[limpid sage]

we're dooming

[alpine wraith]

we will see but personally many things im concerned

[lilac stag]

Don’t ruin your lunch

[alpine wraith]

yea think you can afk some months on those

[lilac stag]

Or between cds

[limpid sage]

do you think blizz listens to community figures

[tepid trellis]

sometimes they do

[limpid sage]

like if they'd send a list of things that are good/bad about subtlety and suggested fix

[tepid trellis]

somtimes their vision for something just doesent line up with what said community for the spec is wanting

not the first time

this has happened

[lilac stag]

They’ve got their agenda and will see it through.

[limpid sage]

the reason I'm asking is because they have 0 transparency about what their thoughts are

[lilac stag]

that’s their job

[tepid trellis]

to the general public, no

[limpid sage]

besides the chatgpt description at the beginning of their patch notes

[alpine wraith]

well we might disagree but most we can do is just send feedback

[limpid sage]

ya that's why I'm asking if we can get bigger people involved if it all looks like shit

or if it even matters

[sweet turret]

Are we playing haste now?

[limpid sage]

40/40/10/10 split yes

when midnight comes

[tepid trellis]

nope, only thing you can do as an individual is post shit on their feedback forum

[lilac stag]

This is just continuing the timeline of builders vs finishers as no one at blizzard actually understands what does and doesn’t work for the spec and they over correct each time.

[limpid sage]

(I made this up)

[lilac stag]

12.1.5 finishers will get focused on via tier or mini rework

[limpid sage]

12.2 4-set will give us cdr on dance when using finishers

can't wait personally

[lilac stag]

nah. It’ll go back to strike dmg

[tulip portal]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[karmic harbor]

anyone got a gcd tracker wa

[vale pine]

this is the expectations/goal they set with the complete rework of the spec in the new xpac

which misssed the mark they set for themselves

my professor would give an F and return it with "not understood the assignment"

[flat marsh]

what does the stealth 2% leech talent do? it doesnt seem to work for shadowdance

[vale pine]

nothing

[limpid sage]

gives you leech in stealth

[vale pine]

its only active during stealth, not dance

its one of the worse talents in existance

would need to be 10 or 20x of what it does to be relevant

[limpid sage]

it seems you've forgotten the usecase of cb sectec -> vanish combo

to get an additional 2% healing on your hardest hitting move

[vale pine]

true

very practical

[limpid sage]

indeed

[sullen oriole]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1053037639852380170/1260166045612642324/er.gif

[limpid sage]

the worst part of haste being useful now is that we won't have an excuse to stack vers

[vale pine]

the aim was to have more defining cooldowns and more control over cooldowns

[limpid sage]

and I have to do mechanics again

[vale pine]

the tl;dr of the code block is:

• make things more intuitive
• make cooldowns more impactful
• give players more control over their damage profile

yet, what was done was:

• add haste interactions to cooldowns -> making them less intuitive
• remove most damage amps from cooldowns -> making them less impactful
• having flag cooldowns you basically can only align in one way -> reducing control over your damage profile

ofc there is more nouance

[sullen oriole]

what are they changing in sub talent tree?

[vale pine]

e.g. they massively buffed shadowstrike, which is probably now the only reason why we use shadow dance

[vale pine]

e.g. no more flagellation

rip

[sullen oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-funny-cathands-cat-in-hat-cat-with-hands-silly-cat-gif-14981685377760273746

[remote shuttle]

Well 2026 May be poe2 year for me...

[sweet turret]

Why no more flag?
No more DMG plus in dance?

[remote shuttle]

Is there any Better feedback to give them than not buying Midnight?

[sullen oriole]

so what i read is make class more noob so more can play

[vale pine]

was purged

[sweet turret]

Why did they add it then after shadowlands as a talent
I don't understand, it pays so good

[vale pine]

removed, gonezo, they took it out behind the barn and shot it, burned the which, or whatever metapher you want to use

[sweet turret]

Cries in sadge

[vale pine]

to jokes aside

the reason is, its difficult to understand

its a compelx spell

[sweet turret]

Bruh

[vale pine]

and blizz wants to make this work on console

[sweet turret]

I understand but I don't want to, flag + blades is the most fun there is

[vale pine]

where you have a controller

so limited button space

[sullen oriole]

they wanna make the class casual friendly

[vale pine]

the entire xpac focuses on dumping the game down and reducing barrire of entry

[sweet turret]

I saw a lot of shuren buff , are they good?

[vale pine]

so all the midnight changes are not targeted at existing players

but anticipate new players to like these new spec iterations

[sweet turret]

Maybe I get my GF in, but I don't want to harm her

[vale pine]

and system changes

[sweet turret]

I like the haste idea, but I feel that this will not be playing well

[vale pine]

the problem is

something that should be obviouse

you have blades as a non hasted cooldown

[sweet turret]

CD alignment will be hell