subtlety

[abstract oar]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hybrid beacon]

I feel like I have to trust the top players, but I also trust sims so this is making my head hurt, gonna just have to try it in game I guess

[sick jackal]

any1 able to check this i feel like i am having rotational issues in fractilus

[prisma minnow]

With ritual forge do I cold blooded the 1st or 2nd sectech

[vale crane]

!log

[hazy breach]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1417985473544192070/image.png?ex=68cd2221&is=68cbd0a1&hm=b498174e18b357b9f6d6c4d98cbaba5e273a04b0c50aacf003c61a3739a7c211&
This might be you but a lot of the other runs have similar cadence. To me it just seems wild that the highs of having forge on some blades outweights the ~8% loss at all other times when theyre used this infrequently

[night sparrow]

The soul Hunters fight for sub is insane lol, I have 0 assign, pure target dummy fight lel

[steel zinc]

and you can afk in the intermission

pretty much

[slate marlin]

wouldnt it make sense considering our power on cds?

[astral axle]

yeah i got a mythic lily in valut but it was like a .3% over prism + seaforium -- cannae be arsed

[hazy breach]

Yeah if youre using it every 3 min

[slate marlin]

Like, u get 9 stack worth of prism on araz qnd then 18 stacks on all other cd set but the 2nd one

[hazy breach]

Not every 6 min

Or 5

[slate marlin]

oh

ok

wtf

[hazy breach]

Which happens very often in logs ive checked

[slate marlin]

i didnt realize

[hazy breach]

from keys

[slate marlin]

maybe its not logging correctly

[hazy breach]

It is

[slate marlin]

then i have no clue tbf

thats weird af

[hazy breach]

Not really

Sometimes you just cant send because pack is dead or important pack is coming up

So you hold

Which makes sense

[latent finch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

give me a moment

If you look at how the combo point refunds work

#subtlety message

i explained it the other day, you can jump to the start of it when clicking on the above link

[dusty totem]

Might be playing vs not playing cold blood

[nova cairn]

Week 213123 and I still don't have a prism or forge

[fallen mortar]

Thanks, I basically wanted to setup a condition in my shadow techniques wa that it should glow whenever a coup use is gonna refund full combo points

But was wandering what the exact condition for it was

[oblique burrow]

If i have lily/antenna/prism, which one should i use ? Same ilvl btw

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[slate lantern]

whichever sims the highest

[carmine portal]

@keen dome gearing my DK and got the "Mind Fracturing Odium" trinket and it gives you an insanely cool void effect on ur eyes/hands when it has procced

[keen dome]

Hah, that's cool

[carmine portal]

Gna pair this with kyveza's toy and the fkn void tendril one

[compact meadow]

ehm...any clue why did i get score from a 10?

[frigid aurora]

just for fun

[surreal cedar]

Probably a dumb question, but is there a talent that has a chance to refill all of your combo points when you use a finisher? I can’t seem to figure out why but occasionally I’ll use a finisher and instantly be refunded full CP again?

[tawny zinc]

Shadowcraft

[surreal cedar]

Ty ty

[tawny zinc]

Capstone, left side

[maiden hamlet]

When i crafted ring, Sims said to go crit/verse over mastery/verse and mastery/crit. Put me in that 11k crit category. Both patchwerk and dslice Sims came back verse/crit.

[untold basin]

For Sub rotation. Do we only get one shadow dance + symbols + secret in between the 2x for flag + blades?

[slate lantern]

it depends. a general guideline is CD(2x)- In between(2x)-CD(2x)-In between(1x) and then repeats. Stuff like aoe can change that and make stuff available more often but its handy to keep in mind

[untold basin]

If you’re in AoE would you do an extra shadow + secret since symbols doesn’t get reduced?

[slate lantern]

yeah in aoe symbols becomes the chokepoint, im not the expert on this and some more sub experts might know more but in general i dont push it since that one SD+sectec is unlikely to make a difference in damage

[untold basin]

And I saw you are supposed to FoK in between coups but there are a few times where FoK only gives 1cp. When all CDs are down do you backstab instead?

[karmic harbor]

you storm when blades are up or you have 4+ targets

[fossil forge]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/more-mythic-score-for-all-keys-12-and-above-due-to-bug-fix-378563

ayo free rio injection

[compact meadow]

yaas just saw everyone gets +40

[fossil forge]

almost 3,5 for freee we take those

[eager locust]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tired dome]

Anyone have an updated version of this with 4 PC Coup?

[fresh lantern]

Just a quick question, should I be waiting for max stacks of Netherprism for Shadowblades? Or just use it whenever Shadowblades is up?

[hybrid beacon]

depends on your other trinket

[karmic harbor]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[dusk stone]

i depleted a 14 gambit today and got 40 rating, it was a wild experience

[dusk stone]

you would just go coup storm coup -> repeat builder/finisher

[heady kestrel]

what's the best way to use netherprism and forge? which one should i line up with major cds, I only get to use 1

[shadow lance]

This?

[hazy breach]

Read 2 messages above yours

[timber carbon]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[shadow lance]

[timber carbon]

is there a cool macro for lily+prism so it only uses prism at 16 stacks

[hazy breach]

Not really no

[random comet]

You generally can’t make macros to work conditionally like that

[shadow lance]

Yes, bind 1 : Shadowblades + prism, bind 2 : Shadowblades + Lily

[fossil forge]

i improved my soulhunters performance by incredible 2 points

#floorpovgang

[shadow lance]

ggz

[fossil forge]

fel rush gamer sniped me in soak

i wont say.

[shadow lance]

Improvement is the key

[fossil forge]

fax

i lowk got assasinated

[shadow lance]

I had to sacrifice my burst on araz cuz people can't kill shit in the same time

[karmic harbor]

other rogue plays outlaw so i dont have to play soul hunters ever

[shadow lance]

Lucky boy

[vestal escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/oliver-twist-gif-26543489

[tired dome]

This one doesnt really make sense though.. I have so much time left on Shadow Dance when I get the first Coup

[shadow lance]

Move the shadow dance 4 gcd later

[shrewd lantern]

private logging at the non hof level

[tired dome]

So dont bother with any Dance Macabre stacks? Just Dance and SecTec?

[shadow lance]

Yes

[karmic harbor]

you'd be surprised, world 200 guilds are poaching from world 500+ all the time

[shadow lance]

Like this one

[shrewd lantern]

You see, i inherently dont see an issue with poaching.

Because its a 2 way street

[soft oriole]

Private logging is not always to hide your strats/players, sometimes its to stop apes, and in weirder cases like my guild, its because of people from a "rival" guild created by ex guild members bullying people in our guild lmao

[shrewd lantern]

the person being poached still has to think the other offer is better.

[karmic harbor]

what's your reason for hof private logging

[tired dome]

Okay thank you

[shrewd lantern]

at a level it matters more

Also private logging its way easier to hide OT

sketchy fucks

[karmic harbor]

what matters more

poaching?

[shrewd lantern]

no strats

moreso

I dont think poaching is even a bad thing anyway

[karmic harbor]

ic

[shrewd lantern]

Like the person still has to agree

and think the other team is more worth

end of the day

[karmic harbor]

i raided hof and we just did method strats or whatever that streamer guild was

maybe its different now

[shrewd lantern]

Also the stop apes is a poor excuse

when most people ss them

or meters

regardless

[shadow lance]

I mean, you could just check any logs from anybody

[tired dome]

He used SecTec before he danced?

[shadow lance]

It's me

And if you check timer

I'm still in dance when I press

And I reapply dance when it fades

[tired dome]

Oh.. I always dance and then SecTec

[shadow lance]

Safest way is dance then sec tech

[tired dome]

That seems to be cutting it close yea lol

[shadow lance]

But sometimes, you sectech 1 gcd earlier

I could sectech on gcd earlier if I press sod on finisher earlier

I think

Doesn't matter a lot

[tired dome]

Okay, yeah I think I pretty much do what youre doing

[shadow lance]

I see i had reset on each coup

Just be sure to press shurikens storm liek this

If you don't have refill after Coup

[short radish]

i dont know what guild you are, but we make fun of our private logging "ops" because they private log

and also because theyre cringe OTers

[flat marsh]

Is there a way to see if my next finisher is gonna refund or I'm supposed to react after each one?

[soft oriole]

aha yeah its different with this, its basically some salty ex guildies that were checking public logs and whispering people who had stupid deaths/bad dps and being classic internet troll/bully to them

high school drama with adults

so the officers just went private

[short radish]

oh okay yeah thats acutally a valid reason to private log

[lucid jackal]

Shadow technique stacks

[versed swift]

can anyone help me understand how to check astral antenna uptime?
looking at some logs out of curiosity to help determine miss chance for sims. this is both buffs from it but which one is actually the crit buff etc

[frail path]

Does anyone have any insight to why my cloak dmg is so low compared to the other dps in a Dawnbreaker? We both had heroic interloper boots.
Breakdown for the 3rd dps is similar to the monk, almost identical cloak numbers.

[lucid jackal]

Just set it to like 10-20% depending on how conservative u want to be

[lucid jackal]

Theres some flat earth shit about how it might bug out and unequipping and requipping will fix, but also, its just variance

Might get more aoe procs, and u didnt

[versed swift]

this is what I've been doing so far but was just curious to learn about it if its not too much to ask pls

[frail path]

Just seemed weird the other had such similar numbers. Guess I have to make an unequip/equip wa for this too, just in case 🤷

[lucid jackal]

Idk how personally

[shrewd lantern]

pretty sure the feather icon is the orb floating around

[gaunt bluff]

dont classes with more multihits proc it more often?

I feel like havocs always have a ton of dmg on cloak for example

i assume maybe monk too?

[plain void]

fatebound assa sims higher than sub even though I'm fully geared for sub. Is this expected?

[frail path]

Perhaps, the unholy dk in another run was a lot lower too. Don’t know if they hit more or less than a monk

[versed swift]

wouldnt that imply that its actually only getting around ~30% uptime then ?

[plain void]

and why wouldn't I just go assa for the st fights

[versed swift]

with almost 70% miss chance ?

[shrewd lantern]

their talent buffs their crit damage

so havoc critting cloak is much stronger than any other classes

[lucid jackal]

Oh yeah that too

The cloak is PPM + Haste

Sub doesn't stack haste

[gaunt bluff]

yes assa doesnt rly care about stats it sims much higher for me too with full versa mast

[lucid jackal]

so itll just proc less at a baseline

[surreal cedar]

Is macro-ing shadow blades and flagellation a bad idea?

[gaunt bluff]

no reason not to

[shrewd lantern]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=388118/know-your-enemy 2 pts=80% your crit is counted as crit damage

[frail path]

I do have 1% haste…

[short radish]

yes

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[shrewd lantern]

its also why havoc does so much damage with proc trinkets

[lucid jackal]

Beacuse the ST fights are so easy, and rogues ST is so shit it doesn't really matter what you do

[plain void]

alr

thanks

[lucid jackal]

and fwiw, with turbo boost and shit, sub will be insane when bosses are dying instantly

[gaunt bluff]

I hate turbo boost so much

[shrewd lantern]

its stupid

[hazy breach]

Need some mythic forge for them short kills

[shrewd lantern]

maybe double on use falls off due to the buff though

or will double become better

[hazy breach]

So you can do forge on pull, hold for 2 min

[gaunt bluff]

Nothing i hated more last season than to grind more 12s for crests before doing anything else

[hazy breach]

And just not play prism

[lucid jackal]

Well they aren't uncapping crests

[hazy breach]

They did last time so probably will do this time too

But nothing confirmed yet

[lucid jackal]

I heard they said they weren't this szn

Could be made up

[gaunt bluff]

oh if they aren't i guess it's fine

But its still annoying that pushing before turbo boost is basically irrelevant

its just to get some exp and feeling about the dungeons

[lucid jackal]

experience is invaluable

[honest saddle]

I think the way we make turbo less painful is just have max crests for the lower tiers and convert asap

Should cut the grind in half

Maybe more

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah there was a guy in my guild who just didnt convert until turbo boost

he gained like 5 ilvl that day

[honest saddle]

Thats what I am doing

[shrewd lantern]

good thing he was one of our worse dps else i'd have to be concerned

[honest saddle]

Its either grind now, or grind then

Either way it sucks

I hate it

[shrewd lantern]

yeah

at least they told us

but if crests arent uncapped its not as big

[honest saddle]

Thats true

Make it capped and save us from ourselves

[shrewd lantern]

if its standard 90 still

you can only do like 3 slots a week

although, it does widen the gap between champ and hero track if they follow last tier's example

[honest saddle]

Yeah thats good imo. We didnt ask for the power level anyway. We have raid buff and nerfs to help us kill

[shrewd lantern]

and just dont apply turbo to champ gear

rip anyone with a champ prism

[honest saddle]

Well they can dinar it

[shrewd lantern]

yeah im just saying its funny

if they dont apply turbo to champ gear

[gaunt bluff]

yeah but it makes all the other more casual people play more and be happier to advance more

[shrewd lantern]

gap is wider

raid buff already is enough

3% every few weeks is big gains

[gaunt bluff]

I mean if theyre doing it again it means it was a success last season

[short radish]

yeah but dinars exist

[gaunt bluff]

in keeping ppl more interested

[short radish]

so its fine anyway

[shrewd lantern]

are we getting dinars off rip

doesnt affect me since i got mythic prism first kill

[gaunt bluff]

my prism went to bm hunter

[short radish]

[gaunt bluff]

He unironically had higher increase on sim

[summer berry]

I have a question, peacemaker + prism sims me more than araz + prism (100k dungeon slice), do I listen to sims?

[short radish]

yeah

[gaunt bluff]

with 723 araz and antenna

[summer berry]

okay, thanks

[random comet]

Apparently dinars aren’t available on turbo boost but will come later

[lone linden]

im praying for dinars... im using a champion track sigil of the cosmic hunt

[wispy crystal]

Peacemaker is John Cena.

Think you meant pacemaker haha

[summer berry]

oh haha, i guess its too late for me

[wheat elk]

what is with the free 50 io

[dusty totem]

40

[drifting canopy]

is subt's raid talents far different from m+'s?

[short radish]

a little

but not a huge amount

[drifting canopy]

would you like to show me the example

[short radish]

we dont sacrifice much for the other

[drifting canopy]

or some tips?

[short radish]

thats raid

[drifting canopy]

good

[short radish]

thats m+

[drifting canopy]

cool

[short radish]

some very minor differences with imp sht and +6% crit on symbols

vs 1 point in finality and replicating shadows

but its kinda like

[drifting canopy]

me @ M+ is like

[rose crag]

Archon has Subtlety as an S-tier DPS spec right now.

Is that because of damage output, or because of some utility I should know about?

Trying to actually pick this spec up for PvE now that I have a M+ group

[short radish]

if you accidently run raid talents in m+

you're not going to lose sleep over it

[wispy crystal]

For the rogue tree are we running thistle for M+?

[short radish]

sure, you can also run cold blood

i run CB

but its just a personal preference thing

[wispy crystal]

Got it so both works.

Do you macro cold blood with sTec?

Or have separate bind with macro and without

2 binds in total

[short radish]

yes but i have a separate sectech bind also

yes

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[wispy crystal]

Ok sweet so I'm doing this right

[short radish]

yeah you can move that point in rotten to finality

if you really want to

[wispy crystal]

Ah I understand now 😊 ty ty

[short radish]

lots of largly minor inconsequential stuff

[drifting canopy]

it seems the rotation is totally the same as M+

[short radish]

yup

[drifting canopy]

quite good

i'll do subt in raid from now on

[short radish]

you just spread ruptures more

out of dance

in m+

[random comet]

Archon is just an aggregator, that’s mostly a reflection of sub presence in the highest keys being done. Where they draw the line between S and A and B I dunno, that’s up to them

[short radish]

tier lists are also a meme

[slate lantern]

Archon is a meme of a meme

"WHY IS EVERYONE RUNNING ROTTEN"

[rose crag]

ohhh sure. so it's not really based on like, damage output more of a popularity contest of sorts?

[short radish]

probably all of the above

and other random metrics

[wispy crystal]

I only realized today the Manaforge vandals give damage buff. Explains why I losing out on so much DPS in MO

[short radish]

play the game

[random comet]

The data is a popularity contest, but of course why would Sub be most popular if it was bad so it does kind of align

It’s why you see in the dps ranking section isn’t ordered by the dps value. But archon has a section on how it works if you want more context

[summer berry]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[mild brook]

Curious why we play elusiveness over cheat death on nexus king?

[warm marlin]

cheat doesnt save you in p1 because you get MCed instead

and theres a lot of st rot in p1

[mild brook]

oh makes sense, thank you

[warm marlin]

and its hard to die after p1

[summer berry]

Im trying to learn sub but i feel like its not intuitive like other rogue specs, Im confused even reading how nimble flurry works and not pressing shuriken storm in dance window is not confusing at all

do I track nimble or is it just passive cleave?

[open vortex]

Passive

[flint furnace]

does anybody have a nice wa for netherprism

[woven ruin]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tired dome]

How much dmg difference is there if you dont bother with backstab after dance?

[leaden thunder]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[signal smelt]

hello guys, I have a question. My friend and I were discussing about spellQwindow. He said he was using 0 Ms for his spell que window. Can someone please explain how would it affect him 🙏

[proper eagle]

Is it okay to sec tech before shadow blades? The talent is for mythic build from murlok io.

[tribal blade]

thank god

i made it

all the suffering wasn't in vain

[empty plume]

0 ms spell queue means you literally cannot queue a spell up

meaning: you will always lose some number of milliseconds between your global cooldown becoming available, and your subsequent input causing a spell to go off

if you can press your keybind 10times per second, that is ~100ms delay (and that's like... extreme spamming)

so you are effectively incurring extra time on every GCD

with 0ms spell queue window

if you set it to 100ms spell queue, you are able to queue a spell up for the 100ms leading up to your GCD becoming available

typical ideology is that your internet ping ms is the absolute minimum valid spell queue window

and realistically the average player would likely be okay with the default SQW (400) or 300 ish

[inner grail]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[slate lantern]

your friend has some large misconception of how spellqueuewindow works

[empty plume]

yeah... 0ms is objectively bad for sure

[brisk onyx]

[covert meteor]

You can change the spellqueue yourself and test it out. You should notice that 0ms is atrocious.

Start off at 100ms+ping ms and go higher or lower and get a feel for yourself.

[dusk stone]

Read the guide thoroughly

[zinc venture]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[dusk stone]

Yeah its the same reason you see double on use is the most popular but its output isnt as good

[warm depot]

for araz mythic, i was told to cloak the soak at last second is this true

[tepid trellis]

If u wanna immune it yes

Needs to at the latest 0,9 before the hit

[warm depot]

word

any reason why

[tepid trellis]

Cloak being funny

[short radish]

cloak has 2 components

really really cloak

and somewhat cloak

split into its 1st second and then last 4 seconds

[warm depot]

huh i never knew the first part was only 1s

i just assumed it was some amount of time

[sacred gull]

Should be at same time as secret technique, It's 20% more dmg on a big dmg spell

[warm depot]

not necessarily 1

[short radish]

yeah why would a blizzard tooltip acutally inform you of the mechanics

[warm depot]

krappa

[short radish]

imagine that

would be crazy

[proper eagle]

That is right. I think is simc kinda broken then.

[short radish]

the tooltip is so fucking outdated or something

[sacred gull]

maybe because shadow blading your backstab is a bit of a waste after, but usually you backstab first in your burst

[proper eagle]

Yeah like the guide introduces, it should be backstab and using shadowblades plus sec tech is noraml. I ran it on Latest and something kinda bugged I think.

[hazy breach]

Just do it like the guides say

Its not really bugged

Its kind of the reason why theres a huge disclaimer on the top saying to not use this as your guide, because changing it so it always does the blades before sometimes loses the sim uptime of flagellation when fights are very specific timings so its kinda +-0

As the sims are using 20% variance in their duration

[pure jay]

!trinkets

!nether

!netherprism

😠

[warm depot]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[pure jay]

ty

[bright beacon]

is there a prism stack WA?

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[left ledge]

anyone know whats with details on dim?

why is it always like 700k dps off

[hazy breach]

Warcraftlogs filters out the flying im pretty sure

[dusk stone]

Its time not in combat no?

[potent nimbus]

so im like 2.5nights into mythic dimmy, looking at logs is it just preferance on using The First Dance or Weaponmaster?

[hazy breach]

It is really irrelevant

[potent nimbus]

cause u just get TFD on pull right

[hazy breach]

But yeah

[potent nimbus]

so wouldnt it be better long run for weaponmaster or does it not amtter at all

[hazy breach]

Weaponmaster is horrendous

So it doesnt matter

[potent nimbus]

roger

[hazy breach]

Like one log i checked with weaponmaster

He got 7 more combo points from it total

Across 10 min

And its also +15% dmg to strike and backstab

Which is uh, not great

[dusk stone]

Its more add damage on 1st adds as well with tfd

However relevent that is

[stoic flower]

Can we cloak the floor spikes on Nexus King?

[potent nimbus]

hear me out eleem.... shadow focus?

[hazy breach]

Doesnt let you path to inev

So

[potent nimbus]

yk youre right

[hazy breach]

Not really, theyre dead far before the first dance ends anyway

[steel jolt]

does ST feel better playing sub in Dawnbreaker?

[lofty path]

this has probably been asked and answered, but if I have lily + prism, for mythic nexus king, should I do lily > prism > lily > prism to line up for the damage amp?

or lily 3x > prism

[kind lagoon]

lily prism lily

[hazy breach]

The first option

[lofty path]

ty

[dusk stone]

As opposed to sin? Or

[graceful rock]

anyone experience issues with the shadowcraft refund weakaura going crazy on nexus king?

[warm marlin]

its bugged in some way on the add platform

started after the nerfs to add hp

[graceful rock]

any way to fix it?

[dense swallow]

is there a good input guide, i'm trying to play sub rogue in raid but i feel like i'm just strugglign to dps, im sitting around 4.2 mil dps and the good rogues are at 5.4 mil plus

i just want to see how they manage their down time cause i thikn that's where i'm struggling

[lofty path]

downtime is just build to 6+ cp, and hit eviscerate, or if your rupture is low, press that

[dense swallow]

how many symbols of death/shadow dance should i have saved for flag?

[lofty path]

always 2+

[dense swallow]

2+ symbols of death i assume

for shadow dance do u thikn 1 and a half

[lofty path]

yes 2+ SoD

dance doesn't matter, if you're doing it right you'll have dance charges

trust

[dense swallow]

can i use dance during my flag downtime then still?

[lofty path]

yes

[dense swallow]

alright ty

[lofty path]

you can send 1 to 2 dances depending on fights

[dense swallow]

i'll keep that in mind and try it out on this next pull

also unrelated somewhat but what is the wa for whenever i watch rogue pov i hear like a drop song

[hazy breach]

You should always have 1½ dance and symbols ready whenever you press flag

[dense swallow]

sound*

ok ty

it's like a really loud drop sound

[hazy breach]

So downtime is trying to squeeze out as much damage while still keeping that

Idk maybe the shadowcraft refund wa?

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dense swallow]

probably the sc refund i'm guessing

is shadowcraft refund just when u get combo points back

@hazy breach after ur giant burst phjase at the start of the fight how many symbol/sd can u usually use before ur next flag

if u remember

ill try to visually and mentally keep track but just curious

[lofty path]

I thank zac for making the refund sound the same as outlaw opportunity proc

[dense swallow]

outlaw sound effects are so satisfying

i used to play outlaw but sub just seems so fun

harder to learn tho

[hazy breach]

1 or 2

[dense swallow]

ty

[hazy breach]

The reason youre not finding a hard rule is because there is none

CDR varies depending on uptime and target count

#subtlety message

[upper girder]

might be dumb question but does supercharger stack? like if I have 4 supercharged combo points will my secret technique do even more dmg or does it only consume 1?

[lofty path]

only consumes 1 supercharge

[upper girder]

so I only use them for secret technique?

[lofty path]

automod I promise I didn't mean to do some weird text stuff, I was trying to use # as a number symbol Q_Q

also no

you just use them

on eviscerate, sectech, coup

think of it as a treat to your damage

the cherry on top

not something to optimize around

[upper girder]

I basically only use for sectech and coup

or eviscerate when I dont have coup up cuz it gives 2 charges so cant really help it

[tidal beacon]

isnt it autouse? how would you not use it

[upper girder]

not what I meant haha, when I get 2 charges the second one is used for like eviscerate or something

but for first one I use it for sectech obv

[pure jay]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[pure jay]

any reason this is for prism at 16 stacks but people use it before then on saladbar?

[hazy breach]

Well you want the big full stack for the amp at 4:30

[viral phoenix]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tidal beacon]

I think I might be missing something with the super charge, I feel like I jump into shadow dance so often I dont really build a super charge. Outside of SD I'm spamming backstab and evisc to get back to shadow dance.

[ripe flame]

prob needed platform damage but also you can't just skip using it on the dmg amp

maybe?

[hazy breach]

Theres not much to it

Just make sure sectech is supercharged

Thats it

[viral phoenix]

If flag is like 40 sec away and you have nothing to do but sit out of dance until cds come back you naked coup right? When would you not naked coup outside of dance? flag 20 sec away? 10 sec?

[tidal beacon]

so do you hold on finishers between each shadow dance rotation in m+ to make sure sectech is super charged?

[pure jay]

i wonder if it's better to lily, lily, lily, prism?

[hazy breach]

Then youre wasting stacks for no reason

[pure jay]

i think im only ~8 stacks

[hazy breach]

Idk what youre talking about

[pure jay]

at 1:30

[hazy breach]

The next 2 finishers after you press symbols are supercharged

Make sure one of those is sectech

[hazy breach]

Yes

So if you dont send at 1:30

And hold for 4:30

You will have wasted those 8 or 9 stacks

For no reason

[dense swallow]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8azHdZX1FjA3TBqG?fight=40&type=casts&source=17

i feel like my dps is very bad if someone could maybe notiuce something i'm doing largely wrong

[pure jay]

i follow

wasn't thinking I'd be at 18 for a long time at 4:30

[hazy breach]

Its 1 stack every 10 seconds

Its not random

[viral phoenix]

wanna double check IS there rules about coup usage in or outside of dance? Any optimization about not using naked coup before flag or does that matter

[tribal blade]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[pure jay]

https://tenor.com/view/puss-in-boots-i-am-not-really-a-math-guy-you-know-math-mathematics-bad-at-math-gif-27520913

[left ledge]

8 mil platform 2 pull

HOLY

[viral phoenix]

so coup at 20 seconds before flag is fine?

[tribal blade]

yeah it's fine

[viral phoenix]

Is there any consideration in aoe situations where you would prefer NOT to spend coup if possible? Like if BP is a valid and fine spender than just holding coup for Dances?

or reapplying ruptures or whatever over it

[left ledge]

WE WIPED

WHAT A TRAGEDY

THAT WAS A LIFE PULL

THE BEST PULL ANY SUB ROGUE WOULD'VE SEEN ON DIM

[edgy orchid]

is hero lily+hero prism better in m+ in 15s even if hero pacemaker+hero prism is simming slightly better in a dslice sim?

[left ledge]

LOOK AT THE DPS

[tidal beacon]

in M+ do you stall finsihers outside of shadow dance to build shadow techniques?

[dusk stone]

Its about the same afaik

[viral phoenix]

if ur at 7+ targets your naturally building shadow techniques outside of dance anyways (when building w/ storm)

[leaden thunder]

!CBUG

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[warm marlin]

i cant wait to gray parse

private log gaming as i hold dps entire fight

[left ledge]

bro

we will kill when i do 5 mil

dw

7.7 at 8:30 is just...

thats fkin crazy idk

thats the highest ive been at in all my pulls

but to be fair i normally have garbage luck

[ripe flame]

question, If I'm a passive + prism gamer, what would be the angle on dimmy? no prism on p1 1x on 1st platform on p2 and then on the amp?

[chrome fern]

H or M

[ripe flame]

M

[chrome fern]

oh im too pleb to offer advice for M

[warm marlin]

yeah 1st plat and then amp

[ripe flame]

got it, I got a lily myth but not sure how good it would be over my antenna, realistically on the fight (antenna its like +0.3% on sims)

[wooden wagon]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[chrome fern]

p3 is one hell of a dps check isnt it? prism by sheer value in the amp probably worth it, regardless of simming, cause as long as p1 and p2 happen, dps is irrelevant there

[ripe flame]

I'm using prism for sure, my hesitation is more antenna vs lily

[chrome fern]

i see, similar argument though, smaller burn with lily + prism

but that's now in the realms of people who are on it / done it

not i

[warm marlin]

ok more specifically prism p1 until you start hitting p2, 18 stack artoshion once p1 down, 9 stack pargoth until p3 pulls start happening, 18 stack arto/amp or just skip arto entirely depending on dps

there is no dps check in the fight anymore so you can kinda just send it whereever raid needs damage

[wintry heart]

Whats the command for trinket info with two on use?

[ripe flame]

Alr, thanks for the insights king 🫶

I'm assuming p1 its better to sec tec adds for cleave rather than boss?

since he is massive af

[chrome fern]

sectec is around you no?

[ripe flame]

well now I'm not sure lol

[warm marlin]

sectec wont hit adds if you hit boss yes

[chrome fern]

huh, i swear it was around you

[warm marlin]

the physical hit is around you

the clone attacks are around the center of the target's hitbox

[chrome fern]

well there you are

[warm marlin]

again super dependent on your group's damage, i do negative boss damage and actively avoid cleaving the melee add since it dies too fast if i do, usually i just walk out and kill the ranged add

some rogues get to hit boss and cleave adds

[ripe flame]

gotcha I guess we just have to feel out how our damage is looking

[warm marlin]

all the adds need to die at a similar time and the melee add can get exploded too fast if you're not careful, depending on comp you might need more ranged add damage (on my side its literally just me and the destro lock on some sets). very much gotta feel it out

[lilac stag]

any way to make the fractured soul to soak a bit easier to see in the sea of shit that is aces?

[open vortex]

inky black

[cursive spear]

Is it only worth running double on use if it’s specifically prism/forge? as in you wouldn’t run lily/prism?

[umbral fulcrum]

prob a sim angle?

depends on your passive and lily ilvl

i dont have antenna but i do have a 723 lily, 704 forge, 704 pace, and 704 prism

and lily/prism sims best

[crisp lion]

I ended up putting a countdown on it, helped a lot just being ready to grab as soon as they spawn

[shell vector]

As someone who has practically only played assassination in retail, you guys have any "beginner" tips for sub keys?

[bleak night]

learn opener

repeat opener every 90 seconds

profit

[high herald]

how are people keeping netherprism stacks when keys start?

[chrome fern]

Degeneracy

Something about leaving after key put in, and coming back in after timer finished

[bleak night]

[dusk stone]

What

[left ledge]

THE KILL PULL

I DIE

AINT

NO

WAY

[dusk stone]

You can keep netherprism stacks?

[left ledge]

MY FUCKING 18 STACKER

GONE

NO WAY

[dusk stone]

🙁

[chrome fern]

Grats or commiserations I’m not sure

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/avatar-the-last-airbender-zuko-thats-rough-buddy-thats-rough-gif-4264932

[chrome fern]

lol bozo priest shadow deathed himself

[tepid trellis]

imagine even getting that while being alive

[dusk stone]

Is this confirmed to work

[chrome fern]

Idk

[tepid trellis]

we had 5 dead from 18% and down

[chrome fern]

I read someone say it

[tepid trellis]

still lost my last set of cds

[warm marlin]

[tepid trellis]

it did last reset atleast

[dusk stone]

Thats disgusting if true

[tepid trellis]

cuz i did

kinda stumbled opon it by accident a few weeks ago

[left ledge]

dude

im so sad

[dusk stone]

Its no diff than what bond was doing last patch in his keys

[left ledge]

i did every p3 so perfectly

and then i just die to bullshit

[dusk stone]

What killed you

[left ledge]

look at the overkill dude

FUCK

we kiled though ig

poggers

[chrome fern]

Well idk if it’s a we if you were dead

XD

Nah grats

[tepid trellis]

died to rings

noob

think i cloaked the set you died on

[dusk stone]

Oh you are subti on logs

How did you get that loom parse, just good play?

Or good rng

[tepid trellis]

he used to battle me and push on sub parses back in DF, then i went dark (private logging guild and push quit)

[tepid trellis]

both

[left ledge]

i was saving cloak for last set

[dusk stone]

It worth doing fatebound for loom and plexus?

[left ledge]

that was second last set

[chrome fern]

I battle stealth every tier, he doesn’t know it and wins every time

[left ledge]

maybe i shouldve just sent it idk man

[tepid trellis]

we didn't get that

[left ledge]

losing 18 stacks was just

fucking tragic

[tepid trellis]

i couldve died and lost my 18 stack would not matter xD

[left ledge]

dude

this was my damage

before i died

literally just a few seconds

from popping a FAT 18 stacker

[tepid trellis]

if i got cds off i wouldve done 7

[left ledge]

yeah idk how much i woudlve done

6.76 right before an 18 stacker

[astral axle]

first night of araz prog and i feel like I am doing something right because no one has ratted on me for afking on collectors. 😌

[left ledge]

does that reach 7 idk

[tepid trellis]

7m at the end with the worst p1 of my life

[left ledge]

DUDE

MY P1 WAS ATROCIOUS TOO

[tepid trellis]

0 procs in both sets of cds in p1

[left ledge]

HOLY

i ended i think at 4.3m in p1

LMAO

[tepid trellis]

i did 4 flat

[left ledge]

you know whats funny

i knew

the second i died

[tepid trellis]

thats the kill

[left ledge]

i knew it would die

[tepid trellis]

xD

[left ledge]

i knew it dude

[tepid trellis]

always is

[left ledge]

they just needed me to die

[dusk stone]

Yeah losing parses to healers is gross

[left ledge]

w/e im glad we killed

[tepid trellis]

i aint giving a shit about parses on prog

[dusk stone]

Its actually so irritating im almost at the point where i'm going to stop trying to dcd everything

[left ledge]

prog parses are scuffed

it wouldve been nice to not die and have my 18 stacker

but i mean w/e

[dusk stone]

And say you get like 5 dcds from me a kill

[tepid trellis]

next reclear im planning for only two sets of cds in p3

[left ledge]

what u gonna do for that?

[tepid trellis]

eh delay the 2nd set until like 14 stacks of prism or smth like that

and just use forge on like a back2back regular dance

somewhere

[left ledge]

hmmm

[tepid trellis]

prolly something like that

[left ledge]

yeah i mean

on farm this probably dies within only 2 sets

[tepid trellis]

it already did for me

[left ledge]

[tepid trellis]

died 3 sec after my cds came back

and i pressed that shit ON cd

in p3

[left ledge]

holy

thats fucking tragic

[tepid trellis]

so its like

we just had a fuck load of dmg

our kill was 30sec faster than yours

its actually so bad xD

died at 9:50

for us

[left ledge]

yeah jeez

i mean 9:50 wouldve been INSANE for me if i didnt die

[tepid trellis]

now imagine a 10:10

kill

that wouldve gone HARD

[left ledge]

dude

our nexus king and dim

rank 1 slowest

[tepid trellis]

we got rank 2 speed on both xD

[left ledge]

we're boss edgers

[tepid trellis]

we killed the fuckign dragon

on the burn

[left ledge]

jeez

[tepid trellis]

on our prog kill

like

[left ledge]

dude

the platform 1 burst

matching the amp burst

[warm marlin]

I had a 520M nullbinder pull today

[short radish]

same for me on our nexus kill

[chrome fern]

[left ledge]

IM DONE THOUGH

NO MORE PROG

[short radish]

gz on freedom

we're just starting

[warm marlin]

Monday this week if lucky

[chrome fern]

We starting plexus prog this week, gonna be a while before I get to play sub in raid

[left ledge]

ngl

if you're just starting mythic

just play what spec you like

dont force yourself to play sin if you dont want to this late into the tier

the ST gain just isnt worth it

it honestly was barely worth it like week 2

[chrome fern]

Fair, I was memeing though, I’m a sin main

But I enjoy dabbling with sub, been on the sub train for keys, too many tanks pull like ass for assassin

Priory one time pulling mini bosses by themselves was enough

[vale pine]

think subtlety is also more sensitive to tank mistakes

outlaw might be the spec thats the least impacted

[chrome fern]

A little but in general the mistakes land towards requiring more ST damage so sub makes up more for that than sin

I only do weekly 10’s so nothing hard, just pug tank things

[vale pine]

subtlety is rly bad at finishing off packs, so if your tank does not chain pull well or does not give you downtime

its rly bad for it

keep in mind, that out stealth benefit requires 6 sec of downtime

and is as such even more difficult to work around

[short radish]

i love it when there's one mob left at 100mill health

and flag is up

and everyone else is holding damage also

so the mob takes 20 seconds to die

[fossil forge]

Thats where u vanish for tfd and assert dominance

[short radish]

lmao

just sit there in stealth

while the other 2 dps finish it off?

[fossil forge]

Little bit of mogging

Lil bit of tomfoolery

[short radish]

do a cheeky /s hurry up i dont have all day

[vale pine]

I think there is a bit of a irony

when people say assassiantion is dependent on tanks

because just from intuition, it relies less on cooldowns

and does more damage during downtimes (when not having cd's)

so, what exactly makes it so much worse than subtlety?

I assume the only argument you could make is funnel targets for bosses

[chrome fern]

I mean we only have so many vanish charges, but small pulls suck ass

And single mob pulls are just trolling

[vale pine]

and why does this differ for subtlety?

[chrome fern]

The baseline ST is acceptable on sub

[tribal blade]

if you mean in keys atm it's just bugs apparently

[vale pine]

you need 3 targets to make your funnel/energy rly good

[short radish]

them needing to restealth

/s

[vale pine]

what small pull is less than 3?

[tribal blade]

i haven't played sin in keys in a while so i dunno how it's doing, but i assume it's still doing big dam

[vale pine]

it is doing more damage than sub in some dungeons ^^

[chrome fern]

I’m not kidding when I say, this guy waited until all mobs around the minibosses in priory were dead before pulling the miniboss solo

[tribal blade]

sounds like a +7 key tank

[tribal blade]

not surprising

[chrome fern]

Was a bear who’s best timed was a 9, we thought we’d be nice and get him a timed 10, we still would have but our ret lost internet

Over by 1 min

[tribal blade]

that's a shuriken toss to your tank moment

[chrome fern]

I swapped from sub just before we started thinking he’d pull trash onto mini bosses and we could use the funnel, my mistake XD

[dusk stone]

so the normal raid build runs planned execution and improved shadow techniques, is there a different one i should be running for araz/soulbinder/soul hunters

[vale pine]

can pmuch run the same one on all fights

[tribal blade]

on soul hunters swap out imp sht and PE for replicating and 1 finality

every other fight you can just run the 1 build

[shrewd lantern]

bruh

fuck soulhunters

shit ass boss

[pliant gyro]

finallly got prism and araz trinkets! i finally feel strong~~~~

[dusk stone]

so for astral antenna i've heard a few times that I should sim it with varying degrees of orb miss chance, what is the correct number? and how likely is it in the first place for you to miss an orb

[pliant gyro]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[fossil forge]

https://tenor.com/view/gohine-hohino-no-hohineee-gohineee-gif-17792172174678204487

[queen plinth]

Sub feels so shit in st ngl

Bursting that boss from 100 to 75% with all cds and stacks then go down to 3 mil-4 mil

In dungeons

[tulip gorge]

ok but you rise up when you do your 2nd flag

[queen plinth]

Yea to maybe 5-6

Then u got down again to shit dmg when boss still lives

[tulip gorge]

such is the life of a bursty spec

[queen plinth]

Sub live has to play 10s full geared for fun

[queen plinth]

Yea and I love it

[vale osprey]

That's where sub feels worst imo, packs dying in 3 seconds barely get a decent cooldown set off

[chrome fern]

I challenge all of you saying sub ST isn’t acceptable to do bleed build sin ST

[queen plinth]

Oh thought in 10s u atleast get your shit off and everything is dead before you fall off

[tulip gorge]

I'm not touching the spec until they fix the bugs

[chrome fern]

Bugs are meh really, but each to their own

[tulip gorge]

assa has garbage ST but you could compensate with amazing funnel

but now the funnel is fucked too

[queen plinth]

Would assa be better than sub without the bugs?

[fossil forge]

Sub not fun in low keys where eveything dies fast

[chrome fern]

At what?

[queen plinth]

M+

Generely

[tulip gorge]

it kinda was before they screwed it up

[chrome fern]

The singular focus bug is worth like 3% dps at best

[tulip gorge]

only negative side is the ST

[chrome fern]

And is irrelevant on st bosses with no trash pulled into it

[queen plinth]

Since I play sub I want sub to be giga mega

Meta

[tulip gorge]

isn't momentum of despair also bugged

it's crazy how they added these really fun tier sets but everything is infested with bugs

[vale pine]

it rarely is, tuing most of the time drives people away from subtlety or even rogue

long term

[queen plinth]

Im happy my main gets all the love it deserves

[tulip gorge]

I am still surprised sub holds up so well in m+

[queen plinth]

But I’m sad rogues stays behind everytime

[tulip gorge]

I thought it would fall off after the first couple of weeks

[daring raptor]

Well our clsss can’t have everything

There still needs to be class identity in the game. And that is hard when trying to balance everything

[vale pine]

its a combiation of 2 things:

1. assasisantion got nerfed, so their aoe is not op anymore like it was for seasons now
2. netherprism is op, and dungeons have a lot more pure st

[tulip gorge]

I love netherprism so much

I wish they would make it into a talent for sub

[vale pine]

tier set is also good

[queen plinth]

So sub prolly shit again next season

[tulip gorge]

we'll have to see what they're cooking for midnight

[vale pine]

hard to say

its a new xpac

[tulip gorge]

I think there is a 90% chance the current tier set gets implemented as hero talents

[queen plinth]

I mean we get 3 extra talent points

[vale pine]

and we have no information about it at all so far

[iron plover]

Nuking for 10m dps single target in the opener with netherprism

[queen plinth]

Maybe this makes a few classes have way more flexibility on everything

[tulip gorge]

I really doubt they are going to keep talent trees as they are

[queen plinth]

Prolly change it yea

But + 3 talent points afaik

Don’t know if having more talents to be able to use would make sub much better

[vale pine]

we will know soon when alpha drops

[queen plinth]

But maybe taking tea+ cb

Or taking 3 points in sub tree

[tulip gorge]

I don't think the sub spec tree has any insane nodes we are missing

maybe finality and dark brew

but I somehow doubt you will be allowed to put all 3 points on capstones

[queen plinth]

Im calling frost mage meta btw midnight

[queen kraken]

do you guys use atrophic or mind numbing on keys btw? like i dont even know all the ats-slows :-x and i dunno if theres a keylevel at which atro is always better

[lucid jackal]

Biggest issue with the sub tree is a lot of stinker talents

A lot of do nothing's, or do basically nothing's

[tulip gorge]

goremaw's bite

[lucid jackal]

And general pathing isn't ideal

[vale pine]

yes, but this hasn't changed much since df

and it seems like blizz is not willing to spend much time on the trees anymore

basically creating this problem in the first place

[tulip gorge]

they probably will in midnight

[lucid jackal]

I mean we got supercharger this expac

And the paladin class tree got reworked

[vale pine]

supercharger is not in the spec tree

[lucid jackal]

They still for sure do it

[vale pine]

the main change in the spec tree was dust

[tulip gorge]

didn't we get the 3 charges of symbols this expansion?

that's a spec tree change right

[vale pine]

and it was only changed becuase it was seen as severly problematic

[lucid jackal]

Oh shit yeah

[odd gorge]

Just swapped from Mut to Sub for M+. I'm seeing about 4 variations in talents from varoius sources. biggest differences being taking tea or cold blood, and with or without the rotten. what conditions would determine which talents?

[vale pine]

similar, KS got a rework now because it was problematic

reworks like this seem to not come from having bad talents

[lucid jackal]

We will see!

Be optimistic!

[vale pine]

i am neutral

i am happy if things improve for the better

[tulip gorge]

surely it can't be worse than what we currently have

[vale pine]

there is also a chance things change for the worse

[tulip gorge]

I got disappointed once with the unholy rework, surely they won't do the same thing with rogue

[vale pine]

we know outlaw will get changes

but thats all

if subtlety changes, i hope it keeps the core elements making it fun

but focuses on things that are overly complicated or punishing for no reason

[fossil forge]

people still play rotten over finality ?

[vale pine]

yes

[fossil forge]

O_o

[vale pine]

it will likely stay that way

the diffrence is not big to make a noticable diffrence

[tulip gorge]

I think they might merge dance and symbols together

[vale pine]

I would rather have 90 sec cooldowns combined

[fossil forge]

I feel like im doing negative dmg when i swap from finality

[tulip gorge]

reddit constantly complains about having to manage dance and symbols charges

[vale pine]

also some things normalized

e.g. cold blood could just make your next 1-2 finisher critical strike after using symbols or dance

[karmic harbor]

i like the current iteration of sub

[vale pine]

would reduce key count, while still allowing optimizations around it

[karmic harbor]

if we didnt have to storm between coup, and refund bug wasnt a thing i think the gameplay is fine

[vale pine]

symbols/dance seperated has one key advantage

neither of the spells is overloaded

[karmic harbor]

oh ur talking about talent trees ignore me

[fossil forge]

@karmic harbor gang

[vale pine]

you still keep everything they do in mind, if you combine it its difficult

[worldly remnant]

Or just allow dance to be used in pandemic

[tulip gorge]

I hope they increase escalating blades stacks to maximum 8

[vale pine]

the biggest thing people disslike on rogue is energy

[fossil forge]

can u believe our rl benched our holy for saladbar and i get robbed of autumn?

[tulip gorge]

so you don't have to think about wasting unseen blades

[vale pine]

but for subtlety, the difficult thing is cooldown management, but if you take that away it becomes stale

[queen plinth]

Imagine they put symbols and dance together or something

[queen plinth]

Yea I’m hardstruggling with that

[tulip gorge]

almost every single other spec uses every single gcd in their rotation

afking as sub is weird to people

[queen plinth]

I don’t even care about energy management

I hate all the mini cd usage inbetween cds

It confuses me

[vale pine]

think you mix up things

[tulip gorge]

it feels cool to me but it's very weird for newbies

[queen plinth]

I am a newbie

Timing 16s after a week tho 😼

[vale pine]

subtlety is the ONLY spec in the game that has:

• multipe cooldowns with charges
• these cooldowns on odd numbers
• multiple of these cooldowns with dynamic cdr

[sour sun]

anyone else fuck up their shab/symbols management when preists pi you?

[vale pine]

in fact i would argue subtlety is for this reason the most difficult spec in the game to learn

[tulip gorge]

why would pi make you fuck up

[sour sun]

cuz i stg the extra globals make me feel like i can fit another shada symbols cast when i cant lol

[tulip gorge]

haste does nothing

[queen plinth]

Yes that’s what I mean
Every other spec has like 1 smaller cd which kinda lines up with big cds

[tulip gorge]

haste doesn't decrease gcd

for rogue

[sour sun]

it doesnt????

[queen plinth]

But sub has to much

[tulip gorge]

we got baseline 1s

[vale pine]

e.g. we had a discussion in this discord about certain cooldown missalignments in DF with one of the devs

[sour sun]

damn

[tulip gorge]

other specs have 1.5s reduced by haste

[queen plinth]

Put shadow dance and symbols together

[sour sun]

I been living a lie

[queen plinth]

And we Gucci

[vale pine]

and at least back then it was disagreed on, that having cooldowns natualy missalign to be something they want to sovle

[sour sun]

then i shall simply stop being stupid

[vale pine]

so in a sense it was seen as a healthy way to design to keep a bit of friction

[sour sun]

i kept thinking i had more gcds making me thing i ha another dance than i did xd

[vale pine]

ironically, an update later, cooldowns for assasisantion got adjusted to have perfect alignment

[queen plinth]

I like more complicated specs

But sub is a lil too much

[vale pine]

so it seemed a bit inconsistent in application

[tulip gorge]

having all these mini cds makes me feel like I am inputting a nuclear launch code

it feels fun to me

[sour sun]

I'm going to keep it a buck, 90% of my enjoyment of sub is balancing the codes yeah

[twin quartz]

Sub feels pretty good once you get the hang of it

[sour sun]

they do have a bit of a barrier to entry but by god is it satisfying when you get it

[vale pine]

subtlety feels good because we have phases of a lot and phases of little damage

but it is severly punishing

you make a mistake

you do no damage

[twin quartz]

Yeah, and there’s a ton of flexibility in how you spend your dances in between cooldowns to fit the fight

[vale pine]

unlike with other rogue specs or classes

[tulip gorge]

I appreciate how flexible sub is with spending your cooldowns

[vale pine]

it is also very hard to recover

[sour sun]

fuu, if i do fuck up am i griefing harder by just not pressing cds for a bit to realign my shit?

[vale pine]

because the spec never resets naturally

[sour sun]

or should i still try to maintain my flow

[vale pine]

think of it like this

[sour sun]

I feel like just getting the realignment is most important

(unless you can end final boss with a smaller send

[fossil forge]

You only do damage in cds bro u cant fuck it up

[vale pine]

you have 3 symbols charges, which gives flexibility

[sour sun]

you can by slamming too many mini cds

[tulip gorge]

I wonder if they would consider just straight up removing dance cdr

[sour sun]

at which point you're desync'd

[queen plinth]

IMO sub feels awful cd wise

It doesn’t have a flow

[fossil forge]

Wym bro

[sour sun]

this i dissagree with

[vale pine]

but you just generate enough charges to do:

• 4 symbols
• 3 symbols
  In this order (can swap 4 and 3)

[queen plinth]

I main arcane mage and u can prep your big burn when everything coming off cd

[vale pine]

the 3 charges give you two extra uses of symbols

[fossil forge]

2x dance symbols in cds 2x after 2x in cds 1x outside of cds rinse repeat

[vale pine]

but these extra uses don't reset

[fossil forge]

[queen plinth]

Literally have 5 second on touch u can start evo and have a flow in your rotation
Sub doesn’t feel like this

[vale pine]

so once you used them, they are gone for the entire 30 mintues of a key

without a way to get this buffer back