subtlety

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[hushed roost]

Ah interesting so double on use its okay to just use the blades macro with trinkets every blades ?

[carmine portal]

OR do I take Myth chest piece

[vale pine]

Yes, but it depends on the fight

[carmine portal]

(haven't simmed yet bcus 1000000000000 person queue)

[quiet smelt]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dW5ARpmwPzXYEEE28ZXnp5 so i ran this sim with crafted braces and new embellishment and it came to this number.. but when i made the changes and simmed again

any clues as to why ?

[neon stirrup]

second link doesnt work

[nova cairn]

Are people crafting anything with 4th spark

[quiet smelt]

its like 200k dps less

rerunning it now \

[sacred gull]

is there pandemic effect on SoD ?

[rocky lava]

yes

[hollow spear]

@short radish As a fellow speed enjoyer: do you take the neck (which is a 6,5k dps increase over the crafted alternative) or the bracers that have 638 speed (and can be catalyzed)?

[short radish]

bro 6.5k dps is a rounding error

[neon stirrup]

6.5 is nothing

[short radish]

im 100% taking bracers

just run crafted neck/dagger for embelish or something

i assume cata braces are good stats

[hushed roost]

so in the fights where that isn't true you just send a no trinket shadow blades macro when forge on cd and saving prims stacks for the amp?

[short radish]

aka not haste

[quiet smelt]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dW5ARpmwPzXYEEE28ZXnp5 ok so these are the changes i simmed..

[deft bobcat]

is thistle tea the way to go over vold blood?

[quiet smelt]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vBJSjZqCAt9WtsXYuTcFBT this is what i got after i did it

[rocky lava]

it makes keys a bit more cozy with having energy for feint and effectively rupturing packs while tank is gathering

[hollow spear]

Actually giga juicy tbh

[keen dome]

🙏

[hollow spear]

get out

despair

[short radish]

time to zoom

[hollow spear]

I'll arrive at a point where I don't even feel speed boost anymore

[carmine portal]

Sims are telling me Araz ritual Forge, do I REALLY wanna be running double on use

hrmmmmmmmm

[short radish]

yeah

its kinda chill

[sacred gull]

Botj trickets on same burst macro bro, nothing to do

[short radish]

and big numbers activate even more neurons

[carmine portal]

yeah this is true

my GF is impressed when I do millies on the burst

[sacred gull]

Easier to play 2 actives than antenna

[rocky lava]

petition to modify prism into transmitter 2.0

its weird that we are having fun

[short radish]

what? no i will not jump 3 times

how dare you

[carmine portal]

haha

[rocky lava]

I still jump sometimes

[keen dome]

love me crit orbs

[carmine portal]

Tbh I do like antenna

I have it on my DK

[hushed roost]

transmitter wasnt even that bad

[carmine portal]

I know this has been spoken about 1million times but: TLDR me on forge

Am I delaying CD's for it

[golden totem]

No

You're delaying forge for cds

[rocky lava]

1st cds with forge, 2nd with prism at ~9 stacks, then forge, then prism will have 18stacks

[carmine portal]

Okiedokie folks tyvm

[hollow spear]

if fights in your heroic clear are shorter than 3 minutes, you can also delay your flag for forge

if you dont have prism

[carmine portal]

I do have myself a champ prism

[flat turtle]

[carmine portal]

kindly ___

/s

[keen dome]

share with the class

[karmic harbor]

did they fix raidbots yet

[rocky lava]

fix?

[karmic harbor]

sims were bugged yesterday

[wild hornet]

nope

i mean it is

in my case

but legs beat it

and antenna and maybe even the araz trinket are better

[gaunt bluff]

would u guys just take socket here neck is barely better than my hero one at 723

(i have every other piece here myth)

[deft bobcat]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

sorry, i wasn't on pc

i am now

think the best way to think of it is, to always use it with blades by default

but then there are fights with damage amp phases

and on these you might want to make sure to have 18 stacks during them

or at times with a lot of adds

[vale osprey]

Illegal

[vale pine]

trinket use is part of the cooldown management, so its still dynamic and if you want to get the most out of everything, it becomes more complicated

which means, the macro is fine as a baseline, but you might want to either have a 2nd macro without trinket use or trinkets on a seperate key on these specific fights

similar in m+

if you do a big pull, having 18 stacks of prism is insane

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[grand dove]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[sick sand]

I saw most of logs using Prism + Araz trink on M Nexus. Is Prism + Antenna OK choice too?

[calm linden]

what would u prefer? prism + lily or prism + araz?

[nova cairn]

Prism araz

[vale pine]

because you seemed to struggle to sim crafted gear, i did a quick screen record on how to do it.
Hope this helps. If you want to add embellishments to these just hit the small [+] on the item you want to modify.

[wild hornet]

does sub do better than outlaw on M soul hunters?

[vale pine]

probably not

but i don't know if its worth to learn a diffrent spec for just one fight

[vale osprey]

Especially an easy fight at that

[vale pine]

it is easy in terms of damage check

but i would not say its super easy due to how hectic the fight is

the fight is visually overloaded too, but thats typical for council fights

[gaunt bluff]

our best wipe was 2%

out of like 20-30 pulls

if i had trinkets and gear on outlaw no cap i kill that

[vale pine]

nice, suffering is over soon

ye possible

but i don't think thats a healthy way to look at whipes

[gaunt bluff]

ye ofc it was a disaster pull

and it worked out somehow to 2%

if warlocks didnt die early wouldve been easy kill

[topaz egret]

You'll do significantly less on outlaw in a prog fight u never played if you're not comfortable on it vs sub

Probably

(that fight in particular )

[gaunt bluff]

im comfortable but decided theres prob no reason if i dont even have cosmic hunt or other good trinkets for it

[hidden geyser]

my guys, usage on araz forge + nether prism, we start with forge then on second cds we send prism with whatever stacks we have?

[vale pine]

e.g. to tell a story from my guild.
We did one of our first few pulls on cauldren last season, and it was close to the end of the raid because we started on heroic and only raid 2.5 hours a day.

so what happened was, we brought the bosses down to low hp, and the raid lead called to not play mechanics but thunnel the boss

the raid was then oneshot by the mechanics, we whiped on 1%

people got angry, extremely angry because it was the last pull of the raid and they wanted it to die to not waste time next raid

[north schooner]

yes if you do that on your 4th set of CDs the prism will be (almost) fully stacked (forge->prism ~9->forge->prism ~18)

[vale pine]

so what they did was go into armory and look up every player who had a gear piece not upgraded or a rank 2 enchant etc

and flame the fuck out of them

tell them they have no reason to be in mythic etc

to get to the point, the boss did not die on that pull because of a bad call of the raid leader

[hidden geyser]

gotcha, ty !!

[vale pine]

yet people tried to make it all about gear or who played best

[dense swallow]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[keen dome]

It's always easy to blame the brutal number instead of looking at the whole picture.

In a pug setting, the first thing people blame is bad DPS even when you clearly wiped to a mechanic and DPS had no influence.

[vale pine]

but what mattered was execution, and i think its easier to just focus on playing a fight better

[keen dome]

Agreed

[vale pine]

than aribiary switching specs or benching people (or flame them)

especially on fights that are not super tight or hard

[keen dome]

Outside of the absolute tippity tippy top, you just have to play better and more consistently.

[calm urchin]

Hello, good morning, I'm in a bit of a dilema, currently have equipped forge, and prism (on champion, had no luck on HC), and today got mythic antenna in vault, what are your thought? Of corse sims say it's an upgrade over forge (both in dungeon slice, and ST)

[keen dome]

Use both depending on fight and feeling, imo.

Although Mythic antenna is gonnah ave more passive agi on it over the course of the fight, so it might be a pure upgrade

[calm urchin]

fair, and then in M+ scenario, like first pull, would you still send prism? Right now thats what i like with 2 on use

[quiet smelt]

#subtlety message https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vBJSjZqCAt9WtsXYuTcFBT can anyone tell me why these 2 are different ? one was simmed to check crafted bracers and diff embellishment.. then the other was after i made the changes... almost 200k difference for some reason ?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dW5ARpmwPzXYEEE28ZXnp5

[sick sand]

I saw most of logs using Prism + Araz trink on M Nexus. Is Prism + Antenna OK choice too?

[vale pine]

yes

[vale pine]

i had a pin which we removed because the problem was fixed

but basically, the simc build yesterday had a change to buff handling which broke a lot of things

[quiet smelt]

ohh ok this was today i ran these sims thank you sir

[vale pine]

one of the sims is 20h old

the other one is from today

[quiet smelt]

oh ive been up for to long then xd

[vale pine]

thats why ^^

[quiet smelt]

haha

[vale pine]

mystery solved

[quiet smelt]

usrprised symbiosis is simming best for me

[vale pine]

interessting

[quiet smelt]

its not by much

wondering if its worth going ascension just for st

[vale pine]

did you compare it to dusk/dawn

[quiet smelt]

since i mostly do m+

[vale pine]

iirc they did sim the highest when i did simulations for the sheet

[quiet smelt]

i havent tried yet bc i crafted ring/wep and a neck for outlaw so i only have bracers

and cant do x2 dusk/dawn

and cb is simming better then thistle for me too

i just hate not playing w vig

[vale pine]

i prefere playing cb

but tea feels more fluid

[tired ridge]

Hi guys, I was running a droptimizer of my current gear https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jDuRfTCf2xeESWNUnyW69y and I'm wondering why Frac trinket is so much better than lily compared to how much better araz is? Seeing Both are S tier trinkets, is it because the stat weights which droptimizer doenst take into account or am I looking at it wrong?

[quiet smelt]

i feel energy starved in between cds without vig

any tips ?

[gaunt bluff]

yeah i mean thats just dumb

i think that can only be an argument if the fight was done perfectly

and it got enraged

but that can only happen very early season

(the armory thing)

[devout knot]

what should i take? i currently have heroic forge & sigil
idol sims the best but its in D tier

[honest grail]

Antenna

❓

[vale pine]

antenna or shoulders

idol is fine

its just not as good as antenna/forge/sigil

so would not take it over them

[honest grail]

Fract trinket is just really insane 👍🏿

[tired ridge]

Gotcha, thank you

[vale pine]

netherprism is the best trinket for us

forge and antenna are the best option to pair it with

piecemaker is another good option

so, if you can decide. these 4 are the best options

[tired ridge]

so as I dont have frac trinket yet (hopefully this week) I should just send vault on the mythic araz and pair it with either antenna/frac when I get it?

[vale pine]

man, my vault

the only heroic slot i have is prism

so prism heroic, mythic tier head or mythic tier legs

hmm

[gaunt bluff]

had to choose between 7k vers neck and socket

🔥

[lime edge]

Got this tw trinket it sims good, but is it actually good?

[vale pine]

i alread had to select socket 2 times

i think i take heroic prism

no?

[gaunt bluff]

it sims like shit for me between that and peacemaker

[vale pine]

normal prism sucks

i mean its still insane

[gaunt bluff]

i cant tell if ure sarcastic but why would u not take myth main pieces

[vale pine]

but we had not had prism drop in heroic

[glacial kraken]

Did that sim issue get fixed today?

[vale pine]

yes

[tall palm]

I swear it doesnt exist

[glacial kraken]

ty for info

[lusty epoch]

What are the odds of having the same myth belt in the same myth spot 3 weeks in a row? Big fucking yikes i hate this vault system so much

[tall palm]

Ive seen 1 hero forge drop and 0 prisms in my hero runs

[gaunt bluff]

did u like it better when u had one chest slap an item in ur inventory and thats it

[lusty epoch]

Honestly yes

[leaden prairie]

Fuu, you haven't looked at the boes when doing your profiles right

[lusty epoch]

Lookinh forward to vault all week and always get complete trash while everyone else get antennas and stuff is just heartbreaking

[gaunt bluff]

i dont have any good trinkets besides hero prism but i got all myth pieces from vault

💔

[lusty epoch]

Well thats something

[karmic harbor]

guess who forgot evasion was a dr with elusiveness

[vale pine]

• First boss in mythic drops a head piece, so you can just catalyst it easy.
• loom has leg tier piece
  And we still reclear, so it should be fairly easy to get these slots from raid.
  However getting trinkets is hard because so many want the strong ones

[gaunt bluff]

i mean i would clear raid atleast before taking vault

[vale pine]

hmm maybe ye

[queen kraken]

why do the helmets differ? both are 6/6 and same socket 😂

[gaunt bluff]

its fair enough that they're early but by the same logic hero prism has less contenders for it surely

than leather head

[karmic harbor]

mythic pants or hands ig

guess we see what drops on reclear today

and yes i thought i had done 8 dungs last week but guess not

[limpid sage]

anything to be mindful of before swapping from nelf to maghar orc?

[vale pine]

well we haven't had prism drop at all in heroic this season

so even if it drops, i am not guaranteed to get it

[glacial kraken]

booo!

[karmic harbor]

hmm, 8 people have a higher sim for forge than me guess that's cooked unless i get it in vault

[vale osprey]

How ugly you'll be?

[vale pine]

but the best option is for sure to wait, because it gives the most amount of choice

[hushed pollen]

just now started equipping my rogue, got a myth dagger in vault but it has haste, still take over mythic chest?

[vale pine]

probably not

because you can just craft a weapon for your mainhand

[limpid sage]

1% is 1% man

[vale pine]

offhand does not matter

[glacial kraken]

nelf better anyways

huuge defensive utility

[vale pine]

i play undead

[glacial kraken]

without being a dwarf

[queen kraken]

fuu do you happen to know why my helmet sim is this weird? I was trying to compare vault socket to picking setshoulders (714) to upgrade my hc loomi to 710 for free, but i added both socket options on helmet and got 2 different results Oo

[glacial kraken]

also i do a little hop when i idle :3

[vale pine]

which is 1.5% or so worse than maghar orc

[finite sequoia]

can anyone explain why crit sims decently for sub rogues despite all the passive crit buffs we get? is there any synergy with crit that i'm missing? or is it just that it increases avg sectec dmg so that's good?

[limpid sage]

why would you do that

[glacial kraken]

do u show or hide ur bones?

[vale pine]

i did hide them when they added the option

and never chanegd back after

[glacial kraken]

https://tenor.com/view/my-goat-washed-my-goat-is-washed-washed-goat-your-goat-is-washed-mfw-my-goat-is-washed-gif-11435157539877774481

[vale pine]

i started as undead, it just happens that blizz never balanced races

[hushed pollen]

so jsut craft mainhand and wait for better one out of vault?

[vale pine]

it depends

your first craft is usually already a weapon

a mythic item level weapon is a big upgrade even with the wrong stats

so if you don't plan to craft a weapon

you can take the mythic item level dagger

and use it in your mainhand

[limpid sage]

maybe I should keep the faction change token actually

[vale pine]

but given that you can now craft 3? slots

[limpid sage]

I feel like I'm going against the will of my character

[vale pine]

its probably easier to just craft dagger and 2 of your weak slots

and secure myhic on one of the tier set slots

the best decision is not obviouse

but you can just sim it

especially when you want to sim crafted

#subtlety message

^ can just do that and top gear

[glacial kraken]

idk how math works exactly, when the turbo boost comes out and we get +3 of myth track and also the reagent to boost crafted level, will embelishments be devalued over myth track max ilvl or does the fact they don't get strong not matter since the crafted piece will be stronger?

[near jetty]

❤️

[hidden jasper]

how sim bait is this, don't know much about this trinket

this is for 723

over a 723 peacemaker

[near jetty]

i did picked up peace maker myth track instead of anthena heroic :(( am i fcked up?

[glacial kraken]

cosmic hunt is just quite strong in pure ST

[vale pine]

i would stick to piecemaker

*peace

antenna would be the noticable upgrade over it

outside of dimensius

[strange harness]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[vale pine]

where antenna isn't that rgeat

*great

[hidden jasper]

was thinking that too

[near jetty]

i did sim the way you teached me and it choosed both crafted gears xD i ahve only 1 spark what should i do ahahha

[hidden jasper]

because I look at pure ST fights like Fractillus, with people running sigil and it's only 30 million damage it does

[strange harness]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[vale pine]

wait for a 2nd spark ^^ (i am joking)

[hidden jasper]

I pray for forge drop tmr

[near jetty]

tmr? which server you are playign on bro

oh you mean raid

[vale pine]

for the last 2 you probably run double on use (prism + forge) or prism + peace

[near jetty]

sry

[hidden jasper]

yeah raid

[wet egret]

what to do?

i have no access to myth antenna neither have I any other variant (normal / hc)

[near jetty]

i shoudl craft offhand or ring? if i nneed both if them

is that offhand effect our damage that much too craft a 720 for it or not?

[vale pine]

offhand is the worse item slot for rogue

so its probably the last slot you will upgrade/craft

[royal crest]

mythic prism last week, mythic forge this week, someone somewhere is looking down on me

[glacial kraken]

myth boots next week

[royal crest]

[glacial kraken]

legit once u get that u don't have to care about anything ever again

[royal crest]

one of my tanks has soulhunter boots + tank trinket without killing the boss lol

[glacial kraken]

lmao

fractilus is santa claus

[queen plinth]

Is forge/prism BIS for m+
I don’t want to hear sim it
In my head having big AGI for every cd set is better than the crit from pacemaker

[queen plinth]

Yikes not me who upgraded and crafted off hand 😂

[limpid sage]

top 50 sub rogues in m+

[karmic harbor]

i hate you

[queen plinth]

So is having forge a big gain than playing pacemaker/prism?

[dusty totem]

18 stack prism with passive is stronger than 18 stack with forge

[queen plinth]

Need to sim it actually but I feel like big cds= more overall since we only deal dmg during cds

[limpid sage]

you know what I'm about to say xd

[dusty totem]

I would really not be suprised if all the top sub rogues swap to antenna at some point

[vale pine]

if it sims decently well, why not

[queen plinth]

Yea but u wouldn’t hold to 18 stacks with passive except u know there will be a big pull/amp otherwise u send with 9 stacks no?

[limpid sage]

obviously

[vale pine]

tbh i am not entirely sure if forge + prism is the ultimate combo for m+

[limpid sage]

but that's not a fair comparison

[vale pine]

but it creates more of these "wow" moments

where your burst is very high

[dusty totem]

Yeah antenna is better for every other cd use and better outside of cds

[vale pine]

some of the top players do hold forge for very long, which seems inefficient

[dusty totem]

So if u are using forge on meh pulls then i tihnk atenna prism is better

[vale pine]

and makes it questionable if just using antenna, peacemaker or similar just better

(combined with prism ofc)

[dusty totem]

Yeah and we know from sims what is best in st

[vale pine]

yes

[dusty totem]

All together it seems very sus

bit too broscience

"big stat big cd" => "Big Dmg"

[vale pine]

think the best way to look at it is, that the double on use is the best option in terms of control

[queen plinth]

God I love an hate sub

So much

[wanton needle]

You thats my problem, i have prism and when I sim my character, Lirio mito is better than heroic araz but i saw warcraft logs and idk, most of people play with prism and araz can maybe u help me guys? now yess

[dusty totem]

Control?

Like controling when you do ur dmg?

[acoustic matrix]

You know when you'll do big dam

Often times it's better to burst fast on a dangerous pack in m+ than to just have more overall

[dusty totem]

Yeah get them into execute quick and then chill

[queen plinth]

I had to burst first boss Ara Kara so he dies and had no cds for bl pull on bridge
Got flamed my dmg would be lacking right after :)))))

[acoustic matrix]

People don't know sub lol

[queen plinth]

And that’s what I mean when I say I hate sub and love it at the same time
I feel like overall sucks so much if u plan your cds that important shit does when u maybe have to loose some cds or dmg on other stuff where ur overall would be higher

[acoustic matrix]

Once had a tank apologize for not letting me restealth

[dusty totem]

Well u should still be doing some dmg even if u did pop cds right before the pack

2x sd windows + ss bp spam

but yeah it is not impressive dmg

[vale pine]

yes

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah on a bl pull his mates will be at 20-30M and he'll be at 10M

[vale pine]

having more "burst" cooldowns so to say

because you have both trinkets

[dusty totem]

Yeah true I guess I would just call it a more consistent dmg profile

Like every cd is good dmg

[dusty totem]

Yeah but tbh on bl pull sub will be behind even with cds

[acoustic matrix]

No ?

I'm often top damage in BL pulls

[dusty totem]

Yeah maybe with 18 stack but that is also kinda cheating lul

[acoustic matrix]

No even on bl fist pull

[dusty totem]

Well either u are a god or u play with peps who don't do crazy dmg

Like warlock first pull floodgate aint no way u out dmg them

But i guess it will depend on the key level and such

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah Destru could outdps you, MM if it gets the right procs but that's about it

[dusty totem]

ele

Idk it doesn't matter too much anyway we all know sub does good dmg in cds

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah haven't played with much ele but ye they would burst more

Especially if you have Araz

You get to the 40s

[dusty totem]

Yeah but luckily for us lust is a long cooldown lul

Just sad that haste is blizzards favorite stat

And we can barely use it

But i guess the game is tuned around that in a way

[acoustic matrix]

Imagine if BL buffed your highest secondary stat instead

Or your primary stat

[dusty totem]

Yeah that would be cool

[acoustic matrix]

Would be much easier to balance

[dusty totem]

But i have the feeling blizzard kinda likes there being these differences between specs

And ngl I think the game might be better for it

[lavish acorn]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ptL6tKA1p9pzbT9DWrjFB1

would you guys take the ring since its kinda good

or the weapon despite its shit stats

[dusty totem]

If u run mythic raid u could just wait to get loom dagger

[lavish acorn]

we dopnt reclear

extendo on dimmy

will do hardmode before raid

but dagger is like 1/20 or smth

[lilac stag]

Fool to not take that ring over 10ksim dps imo

[chrome palm]

You’re not looking at it from the angle of what benefits the raid

If he is finishing prog in 1-2 weeks then whatever is the most immediate upgrade is the best

[frigid ingot]

are sub bis trinkets araz+prism?

[chrome palm]

currently it is on dimensius

[runic hull]

Hello, what are the best way options to sim for the vault?

[lilac stag]

That 10k is gonna rng pull to pull. It be what it be (not likely going to be a deciding factor on a kill)

[vale pine]

bis is
netherprism
+
forge or antenna

[scenic plover]

fancy formatting

:)

[vale pine]

Thanks!

[scenic plover]

[vale pine]

if you are on mobile, it looks like this on desktop

discord has some fancy ways to format things ^^

[scenic plover]

Thanks!

ah ok copying wont work

^^

[vale pine]

you forgot to put the text box

```ansi
Thanks!
```

can copy/paste that

[scenic plover]

Thanks!

:D

[vestal escarp]

uuuh wait wait a sec

has this always worked like this?

singular focus on steroids?

[alpine wraith]

big

[hushed pollen]

stupid question maybe but i cant find an answer, rotation guides just mention eviscerate to apply slice n dice but i cant find like a tooltip or anything through what talent it actually applies

[scenic plover]

did you check the passives in the skillbook?

[alpine wraith]

cut the chase

makes evis apply snd

[hushed pollen]

yep im blind, as i thought

many thanks

[marble sail]

idk gang im missing ring to be full bis

ive never had a more lucky gear season

[mortal hamlet]

is it better to run a heroic araz trinket over mythic antenna?

[jade needle]

I was Outlaw before, happened to drop it for sublety rouge. (Thats why i have offhand sword)

Would you guys craft a Dagger or the Wrist which is really low GS?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tFKY9ma7wfDdYpUWWN5K3Z

[hazy breach]

Equip a dagger

[marble sail]

dagger 110%

[hazy breach]

Regardless of ilvl its gonna be better than your offhand

[nova cairn]

I swear prims and araz don't drop ever

[scenic plover]

offhand sword gang :D

[hazy breach]

A 720 sword gets beaten by like 600 ilvl daggers

[dusty totem]

We really need that atk speed

[hazy breach]

Probably a lot lower than that too

[scenic plover]

i am not wearing mine either, got myth and hc looms

[marble sail]

sim urself but its a yes imo

[jade needle]

Thanks guys, i assume ill ditch the sword for now then :/

[storm field]

is one supposed towait to max stacks before using netherprism ?

and time it with major cooldowns

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[storm field]

ty

[lilac stag]

Every time an outlaw reroller comes in here with a 1h offhand we all die a little inside.

[vale pine]

don't hate

we welcome every refugee, be it outlaw or assassiantion

subtlety is a fun spec and comparably more difficult to play efficiently

taking a slow offhand is one mistake thats not too uncommon

[jade needle]

Hey last time i played sub we still used it

cuz crit combo point on slow atk speed weapon or smth

[vale pine]

in pvp?

or when was that

[lilac stag]

1h hasn’t been a thing in pve since what harp build

[jade needle]

i think in dragonflight with thorncaller claw

[vale pine]

shadow techniques was introduced in legion

[queen plinth]

Can you guys give me a scenario where I would sod sectechwithout dance?
I’m really struggling on when to press that

[lilac stag]

Press it in your dance window

[vale pine]

using a onehand was only ever resonable in m+ if you had aoe heavy pulls

and the onehand had a extremely powerful effect

[shadow lance]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[queen plinth]

When I don’t have dance

[vale pine]

for raiding never ^^

[lilac stag]

again. Press it in your dance window. Not out of it

[queen plinth]

And in m+

[vale pine]

you don't

[lilac stag]

See above

[vale pine]

you generate enough shadow dance to not need to send it blank

[quiet smelt]

if youre capped on sod charges and youre cds arent comin gup anytimme soon

send it

[carmine portal]

Are people crafting a belt this week or smth else?

[lilac stag]

Learn the dance window. Then learn the opener. Then learn to use rupture or BP to reset CDR

[scarlet oyster]

what is the best way to sim araz + prism trinket ? dungeon slice 6 minutes ?

[vale pine]

we entered a "craft what sims best for your" threashold

so you just use top gear

and see what is the best option for you

[queen plinth]

Do you hold dance when u got 35 seconds on flag left? Or do your start holding from 30 straight

[carmine portal]

Mostly curious to see if people are crafting to replace it or waiting to get a HC at 710

[quiet smelt]

i crafted a sword for outlaw first craft so im down bad

[vale pine]

how you do that

#subtlety message

^

[hazy breach]

Any sim you do will handle araz+prism well

ST/aoe/dslice whatever

Its using it correctly

[vale pine]

you can use a cheap dagger in offhand, no need to craft one

the offhand slot is not super impactful, so just use whatever you can get your hands on

[quiet smelt]

anywhere around 30 is fine.. start pooling shadow tech procs/re apply rupture

[vale pine]

everything is better than a 1h

[lilac stag]

Buy the horrific visions dagger

[scarlet oyster]

ye but in a M+ scenario i'd fight 1min then low target count, then i'd press my prism etc, it's very different than a patchwerk

[queen plinth]

Yea okay thanks, I got the core down I’m just trying to find stuff to optimize my dmg

[quiet smelt]

or just spam fok + bp in aoe for cdr

evisc st

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[quiet smelt]

is a good oone

[queen plinth]

I find myself often in a situation where I short dance and proq coup in the middle of dance
Then I press coup and my 4 set coup would be outside of dance

Can I do something about that or do I just send

Prolly track unseen blade and don’t dance when I have 3 stacks ?

Farm coup and then dance

[quiet smelt]

you mainly just wanna make sure you get a coup or 2 off in your big cds

anythign else is just a plus

[vale pine]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

the first optimization should make coups in dance more reliable

[queen plinth]

So idgaf about coup outside of big cds

[quiet smelt]

you do

its just not nearly as big still a high prio

unless youre saving it for next pull

in which case you bp fnisher no matter target count

[queen plinth]

So none of you answered my question then

[quiet smelt]

just send

in those scenarios

[queen plinth]

But that wouldn’t be optimal no?

[quiet smelt]

but you wanna fok between coups when possible

[queen plinth]

So would I farm coup before I dance even in mini dances

And than go into dance and get both coups inside

[quiet smelt]

if the mob is about to die you can hold like i said or if big cds are coming up hold but other wise send when its up

[vale pine]

you just use it, once your 90 sec cooldowns come closer you just either hold coup

or prepear for the cooldowns

[quiet smelt]

^

[hazy breach]

You should generally dance based on other things, like how much hp the pack has and/or when sectech is ready

[queen plinth]

Yea that’s what I do
I only have that scenario pretty often that my coup proqs on a short ass dance where my 4set coup would be my last gcd but right when dance runs out

And wanted to know if I’m trolling or if it’s okay when I just send there

[hazy breach]

Thats fine

[scenic rain]

Why is the stupid Ara Kara trinket in my vault and not one of the many usefuls ones... looks like House of Cards until midnight -.-

[queen plinth]

Still working
I hope I got antenna mythic on my 1 mythic slot

[jade urchin]

ive succesfully grabbed every tpiece/offpiece from vaults
no myth netherprism, forge, antenna, myth boots

[cloud river]

nooby question, should i prio trinket (araz) or getting the myth track weapon?

[fleet wharf]

Prolly weapon angle

[queen plinth]

SIM angle ig
Depending if you raid mythic and can get loom dagger

[fleet wharf]

that and what other trinks you got

[cloud river]

i will be able to get it

[cloud river]

myth lily and the passive trinket from dawn

[queen plinth]

Then wait for raid

[fleet wharf]

Without prism, I dont think forge has that much value

[cloud river]

i mean i alreasy simmed

but was kinda weird, sim was telling me that my biggest updrade is the ring

[queen plinth]

Hold vault until u killed frac and araz hc

Look if u get forge or prism from hc

Look if u get dagger from loom

Decide from there

[cloud river]

fine, seems like a good idea

thx guys

<3

[cloud river]

btw why is that ? aren´t they both usable trinkets?

[fleet wharf]

Honestly the only trink you need this tier is Prism. Having double on use is nice, but only for a few fights.

[vale pine]

forge is rly good as a solo trinket on short fights

[limpid sage]

race + sex change performed

if I perform bad now it's sims fault

[alpine wraith]

mythic pants it is

[fleet wharf]

this is also a fair point. forge better than prism on fights less than 3 min

[alpine wraith]

yea highest diff is at like 2:30

because you just delay flag to 2 mins

then get another forge

[haughty rose]

1% DPS increase from maxed champ antenna to maxed myth antenna sound a bit low no?

[fleet wharf]

have you ever ran sub as a 2m class this season? That doesnt sound all that fun

[alpine wraith]

most of the budget is on the agi

[alpine wraith]

you change cds around kill time

usually you dont hold for forge

so it is not a 2 min thing

[fleet wharf]

makes sense

[azure thicket]

hey if for some reason you send flag but miss a gcd whatever and don't send shadowblades what do

late shadowblades or?

[fleet wharf]

THats suboptimal, but I'd imagine depends on how late you catch it. If it's like a gcd or 2, you can prolly late send it and hold flag for a couple more seconds the 2nd go around

[azure thicket]

yea i've been working on pre ruptures or like idk i just feather the keybind and miss it

same thing keeps happening with vanish on outlaw i think i send it but i'm sitting there like ?_?

[limpid sage]

how does shadowstep work for stuff like plexus wall?

does it work like an actual blink or does it shift your hurtbox through it very fast

[karmic harbor]

context dependent, but in m+ for example some people flag do a couple ruptures and then blade

[limpid sage]

might as well if you're gathering ye

idk if it's worth to do when they're already gathered though?

[fleet wharf]

but you end up delaying the next round of cds anyway, is it actually worth it?

[limpid sage]

well not if you do the exact same next pull

[karmic harbor]

depends on route and what you pull innit

[fleet wharf]

well you know what if you can get your tank to pull on the dot every 1:30, moer power to you folks

[limpid sage]

and you don't actually delay anything

[azure thicket]

i got cds lets go all caps of course

[limpid sage]

you use flag earlier than you else would've rather

[fleet wharf]

I thought you wanted the sec techs to be covered by SB, so wouldn't you want to hold sending until SB is ready?

[limpid sage]

yeah but you can stack flag while waiting by spreading ruptures

[fleet wharf]

I mean I think that goes back to pulling every 90 seconds very consistently

actually, do you guys ever send flag in the middle of a pull?

[limpid sage]

yeah

[short radish]

yes

[hazy breach]

If the mobs are gonna live through it yes

[karmic harbor]

depends on key level group dmg etc

in weekly guild keys i dont bother

[hazy breach]

Generally if the mobs are gonna live through most of your cds you should send it

[feral knot]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[fleet wharf]

I feel it's generally less trouble to not decouple flag from sb and do the spread without flag up

[karmic harbor]

fwiw i dont do the flag rupture thing either, but some ppl do

i just rupture while gathering

[azure thicket]

i was thinking about rupturing backwards onto the target im gonna send on not that it matters too much

[wispy crystal]

but how do you do both?

since if you pop CDs on add phase, you may not have it up for dragon phase or will it be 1.5mins?

[azure thicket]

rupture the tall guy on dawnbreaker and send on one of the casters

[karmic harbor]

are you talking about mythic or hc

[limpid sage]

it doesn't delay your sblades whether you flag at 0:04 -> spread ruptures -> send sblades at 0:10 OR flag at 0:07 -> spread 1x rupture -> send sblades 0:10 is what I'm trying to say

like there's no downside of stacking flag prestack besides noticing that they're gonna be desynced by a few extra seconds

[hazy breach]

Well the downside is that your third dance doesnt get any of the flag buff

[limpid sage]

ye okay but I'd imagine that's very minor compared to having extra ruptures ticking throughout all of your big burst

• first sectec and 1 extra finisher having extra mastery

[real pumice]

Hey guys, got a question i hope you understand me 😅

When is the moment where i switch in Blackpowder ?
Lets talk about the first pull in floodgate. There are more then 8 adds. Will i do my normal opening with shadowstrike, flagelation, rupture, Symbols, dance, blade, Secret technique and use then blackpowder ? Or will i use shadowstrikes and evescarate since i can use coup de Grace? And if my blade Buff is over will i go then for black powder?

Next question if we pull more then 8 adds. Will i spend shadowstrike and backstab to proc nimble flurry or is this the Situation for shurikenstorm and blackpowder ?

I read the ivy veins Guide but i dont really understand that point. In my Feelings and Details it does looks like i do so much more dps without using blackpowder even if there are 100 of adds. Maybe i play something wrong in big pulls thats why i am askin u guys. Hopefully u can help me and explain it.

[karmic harbor]

im going into packs with 1 tfd dance ready and cds like a pleb

[karmic harbor]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[limpid sage]

that's another use case for it

if you've barely got 1 charge then you might as well stack flag while farming cdr

[fringe palm]

bp does more dmg in that pull, but depending on comp you want to evis the mech guy to finish the pull faster

[worthy shale]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[marble sail]

[real pumice]

So that means as long i got shadowdance i will always use shadowstrike to build coup de grace.

I need 4 shadowstrike that means i would play shadowstrike and powder
Shadowstrike and powder
Shadowstrike and powder
Shadowstrike and coup
Like that ?

And if i got no dance then switch to shuriken

[real pumice]

Yeah while funneling the big one down ofc.

[karmic harbor]

i'd just bp that flodogate 1st pull tbh, almost everyone is going to be cleaving off the big guy it'll die

youre losing a lot of dmg by not using bp and not rly gaining that much

[fringe palm]

if youre playing with arcane+dh sure, if its frost dk+ret theres no way you bp

[karmic harbor]

I need 4 shadowstrike that means i would play shadowstrike and powder
Not sure what this means, can you reword it?

[real pumice]

Maybe not the best example, lets take a big pull like Gambit at start without the big one

[hazy breach]

It kinda doesnt matter much either way

Most of your finishers in cds are gonna be sectech and coup anyway

Its like +5% prio damage for 5% overall damage

[fringe palm]

overall is maybe 1m less worst case if you just unbind bp

and keys are not slower

[real pumice]

After 4 shadowstrikes or backstabs we got a proc of coup.

So I would say I Have to go on 3 Times BP and then i can coup. I mean i would use the first 3 BP to use my combopoints.

Ah i did a mistake let me write it again:

Shadowstrike into Secret
Shadowstrike into BP
Shadowstrike into BP
Shadowstrike into Coup

[lilac pendant]

So, my heart tells me to replace my 700 crafted hands for hero tier set, but the simm thets me to replace champion netherprism for hero. What does the folk say?

[haughty rose]

when i'm in raidbots top gear and i want to sim every item individually but all at once, how can i do that? right now i have all items in top gear but when i sim it it only shows the combinations and not each items dps increase individually

[hazy breach]

I have no idea what you mean

[haughty rose]

i was expecting a answer like that since i wouldn't know either with how pathetic i described it lmao

[limpid sage]

I think that's where you bring in gear compare

[vale pine]

you need to only sim one slot if you don't want combinations

[limpid sage]

when you wanna specify very specific combinations

[hazy breach]

Topgear does all of them anyway

[limpid sage]

at least that's what I do

[vale pine]

if you throw in multiple slots, it will pick whatever is the best combination

[wispy crystal]

On the topic of AOE damage.

For Ara Kara on the big beetle guy, he causes mobs around him to take 50% reduced damage while he is alive.

In this situation do you hit Evis or BP on the big beetle guy ?

[vale pine]

and given too many combinations, the single swap options probably get drowned

[limpid sage]

I guess you could make the options added great vault options?

[haughty rose]

can i do that with top gear or do i need to use gear compare? because the latter warns me not to use it since it's not updated

[limpid sage]

then it can only pick one

[vale pine]

top gear

[haughty rose]

but how?

[hazy breach]

I still have no idea what you want

Just select the items you want to sim on top gear no?

[haughty rose]

my top gear looks like this

i basically wanna know which upgrades i should do first

[limpid sage]

he doesn't wanna sim combinations, he wants to sim the items individually

[vale pine]

i assume he just simemd like 30 combinations of items in diffrent slots, but he ONLY wants to know how much each individual slot upgrade is worth

[hazy breach]

Change it so you have 90 crests

[haughty rose]

yes tahnk you

[hazy breach]

Right above that

[limpid sage]

in what aspect is gear compare out of date btw?

[hazy breach]

Topgear does the same thing

[haughty rose]

wouldn't that only upgrade the items i already have? i also put in potential drops this week

[hazy breach]

Except its harder to do it incorrectly

[limpid sage]

but it doesn't let you specify specific combinations like gear compare does it?

[earnest canyon]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[hazy breach]

It will sim every combination with upgrading the gear you have selected

[earnest canyon]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[north schooner]

yes you evis the fat guy because while he's alive you cannot really do aoe damage anyway

[hazy breach]

It does not, but you dont need it

Since topgear will sim that combination anyway

[limpid sage]

ya okay so it's only for readability

or simming specific gem setup ig

[wispy crystal]

Thank you so I'm doing it right then! The DK in my party is just cleaving and the add is taking ages to die.

Got to tell him that

[haughty rose]

so does this mean i need to sim each item individually, note the result and compare?

[limpid sage]

I saw someone mention how all the top logs on Araz barely press BP - how come? Don't we typically wanna cannibalize dps if you're going for parses? Or is the extra time that they're alive enough to make evis more worth it?

and if the latter is the case, wouldn't that make a good argument for using prio rotation in dungeon over bp spam?

[hazy breach]

Change this bit to have however many crests and stuff you will have this week

Then go to every item and press the +

to upgrade it to all levels

Then sim

[haughty rose]

ok i try ty

[hollow spear]

Top logs don't necessarily try to always pad, they're sometimes just the result of good timings and rng

Fw uptime on the adds is atrocious anyways, so the gap between evis and bp should be miniscule

In m+, bp should have higher value

[karmic harbor]

coup procs arent that consistent, just press it when its up

[placid crown]

what is best between these 2 options ?

[hazy breach]

Always higher ilvl in mainhand

[placid crown]

so right picture

[alpine wraith]

yes

[karmic harbor]

crazy

[placid crown]

the enhancement on crafted weapon is not better if it's on main hand ?

[hollow spear]

No

But you could have found out by just simming it

[karmic harbor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade @short radish vault check

[placid crown]

i like to get answers by humans

[lilac stag]

the human answer is just regurgitating what the robot says

[leaden prairie]

[placid crown]

I don't care 😄

[hollow spear]

It's just a waste of time

[placid crown]

i mean i got my answer faster with you that i could get with a sim on a reset day

[hollow spear]

Ask questions that the robot can't answer

[karmic harbor]

crazy

[hollow spear]

Kinda hilarious how little people respect other people's time

Why waste my time if I can waste yours?

[lilac stag]

trusting randoms on the internet

[short radish]

holding till salad kill

if dagger drop i take ring

if no dagger i take dagger

[lilac stag]

nice

my vault was ass, the heroic weekly gave me forge

[short radish]

i assume you already have

[lilac stag]

i had lfr

[short radish]

oh

thats good then

[lilac stag]

ye

[short radish]

gz

[lilac stag]

i messed around with forge and pacemaker on forge reclear. didnt seem to really matter which combo I went with

[vale pine]

its just like

that both are good options

[lilac stag]

I def like 2x in m+. at least on forge it didnt seem to matter

pacemaker kinda whatever. i'd like the sigil off hunters

[north schooner]

what makes you thinks we're real people and not AI?

[meager merlin]

got araz on normal and prism on raidfinder. sims say prism + soleah on 1 / 7 targets 5 min , dungeon slice says the same. is it really soleah here ?

[formal helm]

[frail path]

I have the same setup your sims suggest with a bunch of trinket options

[lilac stag]

[plush roost]

Surely its ring regardless uless no loom dagger either

[meager merlin]

wdym?

[frail path]

Prism+So'leah, as in it's a valid setup

[meager merlin]

for m+ or raid ?

[short radish]

we're not reclearing

so +3 ilvl dagger on dimmy would be nice

[plush roost]

Crafted mainhand for 5 weeks? Damn unlucky

[frail path]

Both, but only if I can get crit or vers for the So'leah buff. If not, a hero Pacemaker is better for me

[short radish]

havent seen a single loomi dagger

[plush roost]

Yeah that sucks

[short radish]

seen 2x2 xbows though

[plush roost]

Youre not gonna see that ring ever again either

[lilac stag]

we're on loomin daggie 4 🙁

[plush roost]

Dems the rules

[lilac stag]

zero trinkets

[plush roost]

Im only rogue in guild and weve had nexus dagger snd 3 loomi drop

Xd

[lilac stag]

we've got 2, but I have a funny feeling i'll be fury warrior sooner than later

[plush roost]

Whats wild is i have myth araz antenna loom daggers and loom shoulders plexus ring and 3/4 M tier but my boots belt wrists are ass so im only 716 🙁

Man rogue is quite downbad unironically

Like yeah it performs well in raid rn but im already feeling the m+ downsides

[lilac stag]

i legit started gearing because I think when we get to dimmy, it wont be worth 2

brain off in keys is nice as well

[plush roost]

Yeah dimmy late in tier may just be an assa angle ngl

[lilac stag]

and fury at this point is better than assa

[keen dome]

I imagine stuff will just melt late tier on Dimmy

[plush roost]

Sub rogue on deep farm getting to pargoth platform -> 1dance into whiteswing

[lilac stag]

at this point, extra rally or extra atrophic lol

[plush roost]

Xdddd

[hazy breach]

Idk i think dimmy is gonna be mostly stop dps for quite a while

[plush roost]

Idk a few more ilvls and 3% buffs and were gonna be stopping dps for 40 seconds

Gonna be insanely cursed

[hazy breach]

But besides p3 damage is gonna be all that matters, and sub is good at that

For people progressing that is

But yeah surely rogue gets some buffs in a bit so you can actually play assa

And sub is playable except on forgeweaver, soulbinder and dimmy

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/awake-wake-up-morning-bill-murray-groundhog-day-gif-16623889092220929205

[plush roost]

I would unironically take some buffs to damage outside of dance

[lilac stag]

i would like another BP buff

[plush roost]

My personal wishlist is shuriken storm damage increased energy decreased and backstab increase

I just wanna feel useful out of cds

[lilac stag]

how bout just improving cdr and we dance a bit more

backstab aint the way

[valid vault]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush roost]

Eh sod is the true gate

Esp in aoe

[vale pine]

i don't mind storm damage, the energy costs could be lower for sure

[feral knot]

finally

[vale pine]

nicu

[plush roost]

What ive been doing lately is playing tea in keys, holding a charge and doing dance without sod if im overcapping. Allows me to get all 8 globals

Autotea makes it so annoying tho

[lilac stag]

ends up back in the issue of in raid, when fights turn more ST, we're shit bottom dmg

[plush roost]

Sub life

Already happening tbh

Were just lucky last 2 bosses have hella amps

[lilac stag]

yeah but storm/bs wont fix that

[plush roost]

Itll help a little bit

[lilac stag]

bs would need a big buff

[plush roost]

Like yeah it wont shoot to top of meters but if we wanted that just aurabuff

[placid cove]

Double on use Ara + Prism are bis, right ?
Im just wondering how to justify saying that I need Araz trinket, cuz I think Droptimizer does not show it ( currently have lili + Antenna and prism in vault )

[hazy breach]

Droptimizer can sometimes bug out with double on-uses

But if you sim topgear it should be accurate

[placid cove]

well, droptimizer is what you put in wowaudit whislist

😄

[plush roost]

Ye just send top gear to your loot guy and explai

For araz

[placid cove]

ok 🙂

[olive jacinth]

Is signet + prism good? Or should i just hope for araz trinket this week? 🙂

[lilac stag]

it's fine, not nearly as good as forge

[hazy breach]

Should probably just play a passive instead of signet

[lilac stag]

unless you are like me and no passives ever drop

[olive jacinth]

I have empowering crystal since 4 weeks as passive. Signet sims -0.2%

[lilac stag]

signet will depend on secondaries. if you launch your mastery over cap with it, its value is less.

again not ideal, and cystal in general is good

[short radish]

irregular reminder that signet is garbage

yeah thats my paladin but still

fuck signet

[errant steeple]

2min trinket not good on 1:30 spec

[short radish]

not good on 2min spec also

[errant steeple]

best one after netherprisme or araz trinket for assa as DS

[lilac stag]

Using a 2 min for single on use. No signet and pvp are not the way

[vale vault]

just recently swapped back to sub & got araz trinket in vault - gonna play double on use ( with prism ) - can i just both macro them in order for ease of use in raid or seperate keybinds

[errant steeple]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale vault]

ty!

[errant steeple]

ur walcome !

it ll throw araz first then netherprisme if araz in CD

[vale vault]

yeah that was my idea aswell

[errant steeple]

be sure to make a keybind on ur netherprisme sometimes u ll be at 18stacks in dungeon and araz up

[vale vault]

yeah i figured, its just for raid as mentioned

[errant steeple]

perfect 👍

[short radish]

thats my ret pal sim

[lilac stag]

ah yeah, it's over 5 milly.

[short radish]

signet is just garbage

yeah

[lilac stag]

707

[honest grail]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[short radish]

I FUCKING DIED ON THE SALADBAR PULL

AND IT DIDNT DROP A DAGGER

[signal moth]

!embellishment

[short radish]

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

'asdoialsdhalksdhsakdhasdkasdsaas

[runic trail]

But you're now free from saladbar prog

[short radish]

true

[runic trail]

You locking out for dimensius now?

[short radish]

we locked for salad

[runic trail]

[keen dome]

Next pull

You'll one-shot it

[signal moth]

what are you lot running for embellishments? I have the ascendance on dagger and the double one but wowhead says just use 2x elemental focusing lense?

[short radish]

we're not pulling it for at least 2 weeks

[short radish]

yeah embelish dont matter just use lens

[signal moth]

am i dumb or can you sim this stuff too?

[karmic harbor]

I'm not recrafting my assa embels

[lilac stag]

Click the + under the crafted item.

[signal moth]

was trying to do it in droptimizer for crafting lol

[lilac stag]

add the crafted item into top gear

[signal moth]

yh im simming it now

[keen dome]

I keep forgetting to do my new dumb gimmick for raid pugging. Putting "one-shot" in the name and then changing it to "two-shot" and so on as we wipe

[signal moth]

it says its a dps loss lol

[lilac stag]

Link sim

[signal moth]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2aYajtyVjsKxYdau25kgsj

do i need a certain gem?

[lilac stag]

my guy

[wispy crystal]

is this normal where the cold blood build for Dungeon Slice, sims 0.6% higher than my usual thistle tea build?

energy starvation may be real if i run cold blood in dungeons

[signal moth]

yh dps loss

[lilac stag]

308 dps HAHAAHA

what are you expecting

[signal moth]

but i was expecting it to be a dps gain

[lilac stag]

legit

[keen dome]

Not like energy matters outside cooldowns. You don't really care about it imo.

[signal moth]

if you recommend it

[wispy crystal]

this is my DPS increase using cold blood over thistle tea in dungeons

[lilac stag]

it's neutra. that's within variance

[wispy crystal]

yeah but feint is important to survive damage in dungeons

[lilac stag]

dslice doesnt drop combat, so ascendance will sim better

[keen dome]

So plan around it

[slate lantern]

red dot means its not precise btw

[hazy breach]

It does

[runic trail]

We'll probably lock out at salad but we ain't there yet

[wispy crystal]

oh ahhh got it. i find vigor + thistle tea super comfy in m+ at least

[runic trail]

So, got some reclears in us yet

[lilac stag]

@keen dome did you see I pugged AOTC on the woyer? lol

[lilac stag]

not extended downtime to drop it

[keen dome]

Yeah! huge, big proud

[signal moth]

ill prob just find eleem on wcl and copy him cause i want to be him

eleem > sims

[lilac stag]

eleem uses focusing lol

[hazy breach]

It does drop it

[lilac stag]

get to recrafting

[keen dome]

I also use focusing, you could copy me too

[signal moth]

mythic astral and prism now though.. poggers

[dapper gyro]

Just use symbiosis

[hazy breach]

Use whatever you want

[slate lantern]

binding of binding poggers

[hazy breach]

Its as close to irrelevant as it can be

[signal moth]

imma use nothing

recraft 0 embellishment

[lilac stag]

was this more recent? i haven't touched its since s1 lol

besides focusing is more priority dmg, which is what everyone wants no, so I've been told.

all f'ng irrelevant anyways

[signal moth]

you have to do damage to do prio damage.. i dont do the first step

[short radish]

just to double confirm im understanding this right, we don't need autumn at 45 seconds

its the 2nd autumn

for mythic dimmy

[hazy breach]

Thats less than a 1% loss so not the end of the world

You want it after you land on the second platform if you want to pad on adds on second platform

[jagged wasp]

Hi yall, quick question 🙂 cannot decide between dagger or HC prism. I do have prism in veteran track, I play SUB and assa too. Unfortunately my guild is not good enough to kill Mythic Fractilius or Loomithar so HC prism is the only option for a while. Sim shows trinket is better for both spec and both raid or m+. I am planning to push keys mainly . What would you suggest?

[slate lantern]

if you're not killing mythic fract, heroic prism is bis

dagger is relatively farmable since no one else wants it

[shut burrow]

seems like the most important thing, looking at the folks doing the most with sub rn, is to NEVER munch UB procs, and ALWAYS hold coup for dance windows. i almost cant believe the damage difference...too much power in hero tree or nah?

[signal moth]

when is wcl deleting all add damage for parses?

what do you mean munch UB?

[shut burrow]

using backstab or shadow strike when you already have coup available

[signal moth]

isnt that just a 10 second thing?

you dont hold for 1min

[limpid sage]

That’s only in cd window

[shut burrow]

you say that, but logs say otherwise

they arent sending it outside cds

[limpid sage]

And only if you haven’t used shuriken storm in your dance

[fathom adder]

only because they do it does not mean it would be better to do it different

hold coupe if dance comes up in ~ 10s seconds

otherwise mash it

[hazy breach]

First fract log i pulled up

[shut burrow]

well i dont see how youre going to have that long of a window between cds in a raid fight to begin with

i dont

even when im holding for next dance its only like ~20 seconds away

and unless im lucky, im not going to generate a coup RIGHT after my last dance

[hazy breach]

If it isnt before your flag+blades window just send

[sullen yarrow]

hi

[signal moth]

hi

[sullen yarrow]

whats ur bench press

[signal moth]

180

[shut burrow]

yeah this is the edge case i was talking about though too. he generated a coupe directly after his last dance and thats the only reason he sent it

he got a lot of cdr and got to send an extra sectec

[crystal bone]

i feel like i was just super unlucky here on my opener
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QtBRPmqDb21dj3F7?fight=29&type=damage-done&source=11

with coup's

[hazy breach]

I mean hes not ever holding coup except for flag

[shut burrow]

the whole kill he sent coup outside dance 3 times total

[signal moth]

in your opener.. how many stack of dance maca do you have when you send coldblood sectech?

[hazy breach]

Well yeah coup happens more in dance because you get guaranteed procs

[hazy breach]

Irrelevant

[karmic harbor]

man this guys rotation is so bad he hasnt read the wowhead guide i bet

[crystal bone]

xd - i mean yea rank 6 giga bad tbh

[shut burrow]

i know, im just looking at how not-often i get a natty coup outside sectec usage

[signal moth]

ok, was wondering as you have to refresh dance so you go back to 0 and its normally only like 2-3

[hazy breach]

Use sectech when it is ready

You can remove danse macabre from your WAs

[crystal bone]

i just had no coup proc in my first dance

🙁

[gilded ferry]

eleem, how much were you simming back in that fractilus hc log?

[hazy breach]

Yeah sometimes that happens, its unlucky

[gilded ferry]

do u have any idea?

[hazy breach]

I have no idea what fract hc log youre talking about

[crystal bone]

good to know its rng and im not doing something wrong lol

[hazy breach]

You can prevent it by having disorienting strikes up before you pull

!cheese

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[gilded ferry]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8tb3w2zjWmGZR46v?fight=1&type=damage-done

[hazy breach]

[crystal bone]

that 1% damage gain tho

diff from rank 6 to rank 2

[gilded ferry]

fair point

[shut burrow]

okay i do have a question actually, too been puzzling me. do you force a coup when you know you can, inside damage window, if youre currently getting CP resets, or do you send all the spenders first, even though it will push your last coup outside of your dance?

[limpid sage]

Wish disorienting strikes reset out of combat

Would be such a QoL

[gilded ferry]

im asking because ive tried a lot raising my dps but apparently, unable to, my highest log was 4.1m in frac, im simming around 4.3

[crystal bone]

loving sub this tier, but now its soul hunter prog time

[signal moth]

what is everyones natty ST peak burst?

ive never got over 13mil with no raid buffs/no lust etc

[crystal bone]

they also aren't giving me 20 sec pull timers

[hazy breach]

When you are at full cp you are pressing finishers yes

[hazy breach]

You dont need that though

Just press symbols as soon as you ress

Superchargers are infinite

[crystal bone]

ohh wtf

lmao

[olive remnant]

are sims still broken?

[shut burrow]

thanks much. it feels like crap to not get to coup in dance when that happens though unfort

[hazy breach]

Idk by the sounds of it you are hyperfixating on coup, it doesnt really matter much

If you play the rotation well it just naturally lines up well

[shut burrow]

it usually does, im only seeing it sometimes when i have forced mechanics downtime for extra seconds

[hazy breach]

Well if you have forced mechanics downtime in the middle of your dance

Then the issue isnt coup

Then your dance timing could be better

[shut burrow]

not dancing during mechs

[hazy breach]

All im saying is that if youre feeling like youre doing poor damage, not paying enough attention to coup is very very unlikely to be the culprit

[shut burrow]

nah my damage is good lol

im just picking apart the spec bc its been a long time since i played it

and idk how well the general rules hold up

sub isnt hyper-examined publicly like outlaw is

[nova cairn]

I mean having a note with cds is helpful for this

[limpid sage]

You can always experiment with the APL if there’s something you think is an optimization

[young fog]

Outlaw needs every .2% dmg it can get

[shut burrow]

reading is helpful for context clues

[karmic harbor]

twas just a joke

[signal moth]

the bit i need to learn in m+ is when to send my CDs and when not too, its super hard in pugs to know wtf is happening sometimes lol.. people dont link routes at 15/16s

[nova cairn]

I mean you just got told

Your dance timing could be better

Wdym context

[shut burrow]

no he assumed my dance timing was bad based on the question, not understanding why i was asking

[crystal bone]

i know lol

[shut burrow]

just like you're assuming you understood the conversation

[young fog]

You link your logs?

[shut burrow]

it was just a nit picky question because i was curious based on other players occasional actions

not because i need help