subtlety

[karmic harbor]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[gritty kite]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[unkempt drum]

This has all been super helpful, thanks very much guys. It can be hard to figure out what you're doing wrong exactly in real time key situations after just practicing on dummies etc

Had a kinda discouraging few runs after some decent improvement leaps, this will help get it further

[quaint lodge]

its okay, the important thing to know is just optimizing those flag windows, once you figure out how to play ur first 2 shadow dances, everything else sort of happens naturally

[unkempt drum]

Coming from assa it can be a bit spooky how punishing sub will feel at times, you don't have rolling bleeds to set a "floor" for your damage etc

By this you meant hitting the second dance too slow right

[quaint lodge]

Yes

But also I agree, sub does feel weird in that regard cuz

youll do things like have flag ip the mobs are 20% hp

and nobody is using anything

[gritty kite]

Guys, I need some help with ST. When I simulate my sub, it says that Coup is the number one damage dealer. But when I test it on dummies, it's in third place or so. How can I fix this? I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

[quaint lodge]

Link a log you hitting the dummy and we can tell you

Otherwise we do not know

[unkempt drum]

Ok. Last question, to what degree is variance in big pulls a thing based on refund procs? On say the first pull of Floodgate I'll see peaks anywhere from 18m to 25m, is that an acceptable range or likely fuckups on the low end

[gritty kite]

OK I will try ty

[quaint lodge]

No clue tbh

Could be any number of things

[unkempt drum]

Yeah that's fair haha

[north schooner]

if you are comparing sim with details, the sim will group all coup-related spells together, but on details you will have 6 separate (3 physical 3 shadow)

[unkempt drum]

Again thanks for the quick log look, unironically some of the best actual assistance I've gotten from a class disc

[gritty kite]

A gotcha, I will try to post a log here and see if I can improve

[unkempt drum]

Is the damage number similar? If it is it's likely just a categorization thing like @north schooner said

Like if your sim says 3.5m and you're getting that on the dummy it's just details being weird

[gritty kite]

I sim 3.2 mio and on dummi is like 3.1

[north schooner]

that sounds fine

[rancid crow]

whats the highest peak burst yall have hit in a key?

[quaint lodge]

mmm 50 mil?

[rancid crow]

holy 😭

[quaint lodge]

youll do some fun stuff w myth netherprism and a fuck ton of mobs

[rancid crow]

I'm still waiting on my netherprism

maybe one day

[left ledge]

Yeah prism on momma

Almost always hit above 50

[rancid crow]

I hit a 25mil burst yesterday on the second pull of streets and went to bed smiling haha. I've come a long way from the mount farmer I was 8 months ago

[iron plover]

Myth netherprism sheesh

[unkempt drum]

28 I think? Gambit first pull iirc

[plush roost]

Nop didnt seem good.

[iron plover]

I’ve managed to hit 40m on momma without a prism

You don’t need it to do good damage 👍

But life’s so much better with one =))

[unkempt drum]

I've never even seen one drop, nor a ritual forge. Even a Champion 704 one would be like a 6% increase in my sims

[vale osprey]

I missed a lot of the discussion but picked up the end of it so asking again. Progging nexus king today, people were talking about a way to prepare for going into the platform adds and doing some cancel SnD cheese?

[burnt panther]

Pacemaker mito vs araz H ? also having prism H

[supple verge]

Woohoo got ritual forge out of the vault 😁

[rancid crow]

when yall say on momma, are you talking about the intermission when she takes double damage?

[fossil forge]

its kinda poopoo

[left ledge]

No

Usually a lot of mobs get pulled onto her

With the 4 drones

[rancid crow]

I need your tanks

the tanks I get never do that lol

[left ledge]

I don’t think anyone is hitting 50 mil just off the amp that would delete the boss

[vale osprey]

Ask them or ping 😎 with the new leaver changes tanks rarely leave, if you pinged a tank last patch they'd dip in 0.6 seconds

[glacial kraken]

we can dream

[rancid crow]

now they just sit afk until the timer runs out instead 😭

jk lol

I just had an unlucky experience, most tanks this season have been good

[deep wagon]

hey guys, trying to learn sub but i didnt get when should i use blackpowder?

[unkempt drum]

1. Only in 4+ targets, 2. below coup and sectec in priority

[deep wagon]

and build with shuriken storm?

[unkempt drum]

Only in 3+ targets and outside dance. In dance you always build with shadowstrike (generally)

[shadow lance]

Storm you mean?

2+ targets

[unkempt drum]

It's 2+? The Wowhead guide says 3+

[shadow lance]

Missed click

3+

[rancid crow]

oh shit, even duriong dance? I read something wrong lol

[shadow lance]

Not if you want prio

[rancid crow]

I've been sending evisc during dance 😭

oh okay

I read nothign wrong

[lament fiber]

forge or prism from vault for m+?

[slate lantern]

prism is our bis, you should absolutely take if you dont have

[shadow lance]

But you press BP at 4+ target

[rancid crow]

prio?

[shadow lance]

Deal more damages to a specific target for some reason

[unkempt drum]

Yes, you BP over standard evisc in dance at 4+ targets, the priority is 1. sectec 2. coup 3. bp at 4+ targets in dance

[upbeat sorrel]

who broke the robot on raidbots

why is he blasting ruptures

[tender frost]

new tech

[unkempt drum]

I wondered this too, I did an 8 target sim yesterday and he ruptured for like the first...9 globals of flag

[upbeat sorrel]

new rotation for reclear tonight

[tawdry latch]

does raid bots sim double on use trinkets well?

[upbeat sorrel]

willl report in with results

[shadow lance]

Yes

[hazy breach]

Something broke on backend on sims

It is what it is

Should probably be fixed later on tonight

[upbeat sorrel]

maybe blizzard will see our low sims and buf us

dont fix it!

[slate lantern]

how are we supposed to tell vault showers to sim if they cant sim

[vale pine]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[young roost]

finally got a prism outta the vault..whats the optimal way to play around this thing? or do we just bake into blades macro and just set it and forget it

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[nova cairn]

Have people replaced their dance with a dance macroed with BS?

[alpine wraith]

you can use it every blades or hold it one cast

if you want to use that macro you need 3 diff ones

one for dance+stab

one for dance+sec tech

[clever garden]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[alpine wraith]

and one for normal dance or dance+evis

oh and maybe one for dance+strike if no FW

so no

[nova cairn]

That sounds

[alpine wraith]

or just use dance normally

and stab

[nova cairn]

yeye

[alpine wraith]

or have stab+dance and dance+whatever

[warm marlin]

I put a long form explanation in the tc channel not too long ago

[slate lantern]

having BS + shadowstrike on all bars is the chad way

[alpine wraith]

yea i dont really have a stealth bar

[warm marlin]

But short answer no, you need separate macros if you’re trying to avoid the gcd thing

[young roost]

ahh thanks didnt realize you guys had a command for this

[supple verge]

stupid question, does nimble flurry/bp hit fish sticks? or are they immune to cleave?

[hazy breach]

It hits

[crisp lion]

we playing bubbling wax or nah?

[random wedge]

Hi, I have a question. In large packs, do you know the difference in DPS on the priority target between BP and Evis? Is it significant?

[slate marlin]

they are ni longer considered totems, u can cleave em

[frail kindle]

So dimensius is just gonna be a terrible fight now where no damage matters except p3 lmao

Hold prism basically the entire fight just for the burn

[warm marlin]

depending on how our platforms look tonight genuinely considering it

[frail kindle]

With 3% extra damage across the raid you’re just gonna have to hold both platforms now

These raid buffs are honestly cringe

[hazy breach]

Thats just how the fight is designed, it is what it is

Holding dps is good for sub though

[warm marlin]

Forge the platform where we need slightly more damage or drop it altogether and just bing chill don’t use my only on use trinket until 630

[safe grotto]

should I go with Lily - Prism or Anthenna - Prism for raid?

[frail kindle]

Oh yeah you’re right I should probably go with a passive trinket now

[hazy breach]

I mean if youre opting for p3 only you would drop araz for a passive, like pacemaker or antenna

[frail kindle]

Double on use value got cooked

[hazy breach]

Double on-use is just more pad on adds

[frail kindle]

P3 is the only part of the fight you care about now so

[warm marlin]

ye it will depend on if damage on platform is required at all with the raid buff

Probably just prism passive angle like nexus king

[hazy breach]

Idk we didnt need more damage on platform 2 anyway

[frail kindle]

I think pacemaker should be bis for dimensius then no?

Cuz ppl say it’s hard to get the orbs in p3

For antenna

[warm marlin]

we haven’t been there yet but it wasn’t as bad as people said on nexus king

and he runs away a lot more imo

[frail kindle]

Never played with antenna yet so idk

[warm marlin]

They travel pretty far and do home on you

[hazy breach]

I had 20/27 on our kill, but 2 of them were during the mounting part

P3 specifically was 6/8

But its really annoying to check it accurately, since the combatlog is scuffed

[frail kindle]

So like around a 20% miss chance

[hazy breach]

You have to press these things and then ctrl-F apply and then do the same thing for the other buff

[frail kindle]

It still sims better than any other passive with that right

[hazy breach]

And compare them

I wouldve used pacemaker if i had a mythic one

It lines up really well

[warm marlin]

Would it not proc at 6mins on the platform and not be up for burn

Or does platform 1 desync it

[hazy breach]

ye desyncs

[warm marlin]

[hazy breach]

Its like the last 2 or 3 seconds of add being alive

Where you dont want to press a button

[dapper gyro]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[warm marlin]

I might rip some cheeky prism passive full hold for p3 pulls

We’ll see if it’s just turbo int or not

[hazy breach]

Just send at 90s and then hold ye

Even though you hold dps in p1

[frail kindle]

i mean im blasting our p1 platform dmg but i feel like its just stealing damage lol

like youre just secret techniqueing all the adds before other classes get a chance to do any damage

[warm marlin]

My boss damage is already in the crater

I’m hitting the ranged add most of the time

[hazy breach]

Oh thats rough

I just zugged boss

[warm marlin]

only one ranged on our side good at killing them

[hazy breach]

Wasnt even allowed to cleave during 90s blades

Died too fast

[warm marlin]

Idk weird fight

afk pov

[hazy breach]

Yeah

I like p3 though

[warm marlin]

hit my ranged add like a good little kitten and stack sht

[frail kindle]

wait i just opened my box and got a mythic warpclaw LOL how good is that thing

i mean i think it would technically be better than forge+prism now

[hazy breach]

Would probably recommend hc pace over that

[frail kindle]

unless its doggy

[hazy breach]

Its not bad

But

[icy mulch]

We made a frost dk switch to hitting reapers mark on one on the other side to balance me out

[warm marlin]

Forge comeback gonna go crazy in week 30 farm with those 3 minute kill times

🔥

[brisk raptor]

is it ok to macro netherprism to shadowblades?

[lilac stag]

If you don’t ever want 18 stacks sure

[brisk raptor]

what would be the optimal use? every other dance?

[lilac stag]

or have a blades macro with it and no macro blades

[supple verge]

I got one and it outsims heroic forge by 2% in dslice

So it's a fine stat stick

[lilac stag]

Assuming blades, fight dependent

[supple verge]

Also pretty good for outlaw if you ever gonna play that

[hazy breach]

Forge only gaming

Or well, forge+passive

[chrome palm]

i noticed robot doesnt hold cds for forge in very short pulls

is that something we still want to do

[vale osprey]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rAZme7SECDTiNpHaKXJMRH

Anyone know why the sim is sending CB on my 3rd sectec?

[tender frost]

sim is borked rn

[hazy breach]

Flagellation is 36 seconds rn in sims

And some other stuff

They changed some stuff and some stuff broke

Should be fixed soonish

[shrewd lantern]

myth soleahs prob good

[vale osprey]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[brisk raptor]

are double on use sims accurate?

[hazy breach]

In general yes

But right now there a couple of things thats fucked with sims

On the backend, that has nothing to do with how it plays

[brisk raptor]

i have a mythic antenna, i guess it's just a bit better than hero forge alongside netherprism

[shrewd sierra]

for the crafted embel, for mainly m+ is 2x lens still bis?

over stats

[vale pine]

The latest simulation craft update caused some issues, results are for that reason lower and can contain wrong cast sequences.

The problem is investigated and we work on a fix.

[vale osprey]

Do we ever play rotten in ST? What do we drop if so? Need to do talent Sims and have had literally zero time

[tender frost]

Nope

[remote rapids]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[plucky parrot]

if you had to pick between a M pace and cosmic for a passive trinket option for non double on-use fights is there a general preference? sims indicate cosmic but I rarely see it used when there is an option for a passive + on-use

[rancid crow]

what are you guys crafting this week?

[glacial kraken]

you can use droptemizer to find out what you should be likely to craft this week

[rancid crow]

I'm still learning to use it, I just wanted to compare to what everyone else was using. I heard the bot was having issues today, spamming rupture. I'm not sure if that affects these sims at all

[glacial kraken]

can just wait

the spark isn't going anywhere

[thorny ridge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rancid crow]

we use droptimizer, and not top gear for simming crafted stuff?

[glacial kraken]

if u wanna check embelishments u have to use top gear iirc, but otherwise can just use droptemizer

[rancid crow]

okay, ty. I'm new to simming so i'm still trying to figure this stuff out lol

[brisk raptor]

if i only have 1 on use and it's netherprism should i use it in the opener?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[brisk raptor]

@hazy breach think i can trust this ok? i have mythic antenna so i'm guessing that's why it is wanting me to use it over the forge?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pMTGakwKkFfY79Gdw1uEb6

[magic ruin]

you can shadowstep on Fractillus wall break mid air right? Or do i have to wait till i hit the wall

[glacial kraken]

apparently u can do it mid-air

[short aurora]

wait for the arm swing animation and hit shadowstep

[fickle mason]

!trinkets

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[rancid crow]

why is 675 the highest ilvl crafted gear I can sim?

[marsh path]

guys need to apply the rupture to a lot of targets? I see casualaddict playing and they apply it to almost all targets before bursting

[glacial kraken]

are u searching under "rare/uncommon"?

also should just wait for the sim fix to bother doing this

[icy mulch]

Should spread rupture while the pack is being grouped up

[rancid crow]

I'll wait, but I also want to learn how to work it as well in the meantime.

and yes, rare/uncommon

[glacial kraken]

that is

the wrong section

we don't wear blue/green gear

we wear purple

[rancid crow]

I see

[icy mulch]

And if the pack groups up fast you just don’t put out as many

[rancid crow]

derp, I just clicked the wrong box lol

[placid crown]

Questions about coup : 1) we cant know when the next proc of coup's stack will come, but can we know if a stack is waiting to get procd ? 2) Is there a way to see the double proc faster that we can see it with the basic interface ? Like for example i have 2 stacks, i do one backstab and it goes to 4 stacks but it actually first goes to 3 then 0.X sec later it goes to 4, but i already pre-cast a builder spell and it sucks

[vale pine]

1. unseen blade has a 20 sec icd, so you can count that time
   1.1 thousend cuts can randomly reset it
   1.2 you can count 2 free procs after secret
2. you can track buffs, but its usually slower than the main interface

[brisk raptor]

@vale pine any idea why antenna would be simming better than forge here?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9WgvKAL6nvHxFh4qXq9CTX

[hushed roost]

tried using cursed stone idol

that is some ass

i thought it'd at least be fun

[vale pine]

antenna sims higher than forge usually

[fickle mason]

If I have Ritual Forge and Prism trinkets would it be almost ideal to use them for most content(no Antenna), have all M+ trinkets too.

[placid crown]

ok ty. And unlucky 🙁

[gentle pike]

anyone doing double on use for sub? how do you macro it? I got lily and cursed stone idol both 1.5 minute CD :X

[karmic harbor]

hmm i wouldnt do that

[left ledge]

having both 1.5 is actually terrible

you're essentially only ever using one trinket

[karmic harbor]

you double on use with prism

[left ledge]

if you dont have prism, do not do double on use

or maybe forge can also pass if you have no other good passive trinket

[gentle pike]

yeah i figured thanks for saving me

do you guys sim using dungeon slice for m+

[karmic harbor]

ye

[woeful roost]

guys do u use bwax?

[warm marlin]

yep

[vale pine]

i do, but i have a lot of it left from s1

[little sundial]

can sublety do dagger main hand and anything offhand? trying to learn it but then i'd have to invest quite a bit

[warm marlin]

15 minutes in the kobold zone provides enough for entirety of prog

[odd cedar]

sims are saying that mythic sacbrood + champ prism is better than mythic forge + champ prism. surely that can't be true?

[gilded ferry]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JQVjKPmayRkDhYcZ?fight=3&type=damage-done&source=14 how the fuck did this guy hit so hard

[shadow snow]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[gilded ferry]

i have the same ilvl and made like 1.5m less

[shadow snow]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[tired dome]

!netherprism

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[karmic harbor]

susge coup dmg

[slate lantern]

No, you need dagger offhand. Even a green is better than a slow mythic wep

[pastel geyser]

anyone know why some people are playing the rotten in m+

[zinc venture]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hollow raptor]

[ornate heron]

it makes it easy to spread find weakness to every mob in the pull with 1 shuriken storm

[warm marlin]

@short radish bless up king prayers received

[hazy breach]

[warm marlin]

now to choose between 723 prism/forge/antenna for dimmy

[dapper gyro]

!symbols

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[vale pine]

nicuuu, prism unlocked

[warm marlin]

a bit sad since pants were my last tier slot remaining on heroic but we take those

[west tide]

i got my first L VAULT

maybe i take that vers mastery mythic belt for later but a socket sounds nice too...

[gilded ferry]

eleem, i noticed that you use shadowblades after sectec, why?

[hazy breach]

I usually dont

[pastel geyser]

Ty

[hazy breach]

But it doesnt matter, it used to be better

Now its the same

To use it before or half a second later

[gilded ferry]

i see, i was comparing your log to mine in frac hc

[shrewd lantern]

do you have mythic tier pants

[west tide]

yes i have all slots mythic

[shrewd lantern]

ok fuck you buddy

[west tide]

its mostly just ring for crest save later or a socket

[hazy breach]

Is omega the dog ring

[shrewd lantern]

haste mast

ye

[west tide]

small haste big big mastery

its like a sidedowngrade rn cause my rings are 704

[shrewd lantern]

mythic alpha ring sims a 35k loss for me btw

over 707 db vers mast

and thats with neither my other ring or neck having crit btw

im sitting on 2 full sparks rn

see what drops by loom this week

[west tide]

omg wait i didnt realize i can replace my delve belt rn

its only -5k and i get big ilevel

we up

[shrewd lantern]

damn you only sim 4.7 in sub st setup?

[west tide]

5 mil+ with my other setup im simmin with the salad and dimensius stuff

double on use

[shrewd lantern]

i got loom shoulders or floodgate dag in mine

same dps gain but, shoulders saves like 30 or 45 gilded

i'd need to sim mythic forge

[sly prism]

Hello everyone, I didn't play much this expansion and I only get back on my rogue now. After reading Wowhead's guides there's still a couple of things I don't totally understand :

1. Because Nimble Flurry spreads Eviscerate's damages and Unseen Blade has a really good uptime, why bother using Black Powder at all?
2. Why is Shuriken Storm only used between casts of Coup de Grâce and Shadowstrike only between casts of Black Powder?
   I'm talking here about the opener sequence.

[iron plover]

No, on pull

oops someone already answered

[iron plover]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[iron plover]

As for why using BP, it just does more damage

[fair stump]

Is it due to the find weakness +30% shadow dmg?

[sly prism]

Ho right

[sly prism]

right too, jeez I'm rusty

[sly prism]

Ok so we re at a little tuning close to not have to use BP at all, sad :p

thanks for your answers guys, you re great!

[tropic horizon]

hi everyone, i have a question i just got, should i macro it with shadow bladeS?... or i need to get stacks first? anyhelp would b appreciated it

[iron plover]

Yea I find I don’t really BP too much these days between sectech and 4set coup procs

[iron plover]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[iron plover]

You can be lazy and macro it with shadow blades

[warm depot]

you can skip using it with first set of cds

but after that use with

lazy way is to macro though yeah

[iron plover]

But it’s technically better to keep it separate since you may want to use the stacks at different places

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[tropic horizon]

thank u very much for your answers 🙂

[oak grotto]

Is there any dungeon where you go CB over Tea?

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[oak grotto]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```

[open glade]

heroic netherprism trinket from vault or myth track armor piece that needs to be catalyzed?

i have a normal netherprism only

[silk glacier]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[spring basin]

Is the wowhead guide correct in that in AOE you never use Secret tech outside of sd?

[open glade]

so assume the answer is just go mythic armor and catalyze it next week

[oak grotto]

I've been told to never use SecTech outside Dance/SoD no matter how many targets

[spring basin]

that doesn't make sense to me, doesn't using it put faded on multiple targets?

[spring basin]

Like obvs we need to use it with SoD

[oak grotto]

Wait actually lol

Now idk

[spring basin]

I think guide says you can use sectech with SoD-

Yeah

[lilac stag]

lulz, weekly chest reward let me replace LFR forge

[karmic harbor]

does cloak not work on kings thrall 😩

[lilac stag]

@hazy breach is there an override to try to get a non-corrupted sim?

[hazy breach]

Dont think so

[slate lantern]

depends if you're ever going to do mythic fract i spose, if not then heroic prism is bis along with the armor piece

[spring basin]

@vale pine could you clarify this when you got a moment? ❤️

[open glade]

yeah i'm only going to be doing heroic on this guy

[lilac stag]

your dance charges come up fast enough in AoE. save sectech for it

[spring basin]

Ah, is that why? That makes sense

Wait, what makes the charges come back faster, is it just ss?

Err, storm

[vale pine]

its a buff parsing problem, so it needs fixes in the core. can't overwrite that

shadow dance has 0.5 sec cdr per combo point spend

secret techniques 1 sec

so secret gets twice the amount of cooldown reduction

but given the damage amps, and how we line up cooldowns

you will always combine secret with shadow dance

[spring basin]

In AOE, or in all situations?

Bc the guide says you can use secret with symbols out of dance in st

[vale pine]

always

[lilac stag]

outside of dance you're doing storm finsisher, vs 5-6 globals to build BS then finish

[vale pine]

you can

its just very risky

because if you use it incorrect, you lose a lot of damage

so in general its not advised to do

[lilac stag]

awe snap. just a sub thing or?

[spring basin]

Okay, thanks. That will make my st rotation a bit easier lol

[ripe flame]

Could the sim bug make it so it gives incorrect gearing results?

[vale pine]

not sure, could be a issue on other classes/specs too

[visual lark]

!trinket

[vale pine]

yes

[lilac stag]

my fury sim didnt have issues. so was curious

[kind narwhal]

# Maintenance Finisher
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=!variable.skip_rupture&(!dot.rupture.ticking|refreshable|buff.flagellation_buff.up&!buff.symbols_of_death.up&variable.targets<=2)&target.time_to_die-remains>6&cooldown.flagellation.remains>=10&time_since_last_ability.rupture>30
actions.finish+=/rupture,cycle_targets=1,if=!variable.skip_rupture&!variable.priority_rotation&target.time_to_die>=(2*combo_points)&refreshable&variable.targets>=2&time_since_last_ability.rupture>30
# Direct Damage Finisher
actions.finish+=/coup_de_grace,if=debuff.fazed.up&cooldown.flagellation.remains>=20|fight_remains<=10
actions.finish+=/black_powder,if=!variable.priority_rotation&variable.maintenance&(((variable.targets>=2&talent.deathstalkers_mark&(!buff.darkest_night.up|buff.shadow_dance.up&variable.targets>=5))|talent.unseen_blade&variable.targets>=4)|action.coup_de_grace.ready&variable.targets>=3)
actions.finish+=/eviscerate,if=cooldown.flagellation.remains>=10|variable.targets>=3

is a ghetto/messy fix that works for patchwerk st

[lilac stag]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[kind narwhal]

its jus tpreventing rupture spam by doing a hardlockout of recasts <30, not clean but its better than nothing

[hazy breach]

That does not fix it

[kind narwhal]

wdym

[hazy breach]

You cant change the APL to make buffs last shorter

[lilac stag]

dropping in custom or advanced?

[hazy breach]

Or well, as long as it should be

[kind narwhal]

huh

[kind narwhal]

just custom

[hazy breach]

The refreshing of buffs is sketchy

[kind narwhal]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5mNkGfbwCMc8c8i6uFmY74 without fix

[hazy breach]

Thats whats bugged

[kind narwhal]

with fix

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fv7aTQHPsgExCG55Tvs9UR

again, not a perfect fix

but it does clean up ST/patchwerk enough for slighlty better gear selection etc

[hazy breach]

Flagellation is 36 seconds, flawless is sketchy, things in general is just borked

[shrewd portal]

Ok sorry but asking for clarification on embelishments for sub rogue M+.
I see comments from earlier today saying DM Ascension is simply best.
WoWhead says Elemental focus is overall best.
Several sources saying Dawnthread may be tiny bit best in M+.
Anyways, just unsure what info to go on. Are the differences just so minor that all three are basically tied w/?

[ripe flame]

Gotcha thanks

[kind narwhal]

this only addresses rupture spam

nothing else

rest will have to wait for patch

[lilac stag]

Ascension & Dawn don’t scale at all. Ascension getting dropped because of combat sucks in keys.

Focus scales with ilvl (barely).

THEY ALL SUCK AND DONT WORRY ABOUT IT.

[shrewd portal]

LOL fair enough ! 😂. Still, if crafting anyways might as well take the .001% buff right ?
so would you do dawnthread ?

[weak atlas]

is there a preferred sim fight style specifically for nexus king to get more accurate results for vault etc? or do I just send patchwerk and we ball

[alpine wraith]

it is patchwerk most of the fight

just save shit for adds and that is it

[weak atlas]

might be a dumb question, but just wondering due to platforms and shit

gotcha, tyty

[lilac stag]

I use lense.

[pine mirage]

When you guys sim patchwerk.. fight lenght is what 5min?

[shrewd portal]

appreciate ur input

[lilac stag]

Legit don’t overthink this one.

maybe something something lense gives more priority dmg. Since that’s what all the cool kids seem to want

[ashen cedar]

is there a way to sim yourself to pref double on use trinkets? or will the sim automatically do it for you

i just picked up a myth atenna and i have hero prism and now my sim says i no longer gain benefit from a myh araz's ritual forge

[plush roost]

If you use latest double on use is accounted for in top gear

Droptimizer is fucky tho

[upbeat sorrel]

I usually do fight length 24 hours as an endurance raider

[shrewd lantern]

me when droptimizer is fucky

and guild asks for updates

[ashen cedar]

so am i just cooked 😔

[plush roost]

Also antenna + prism normally sims higher. Double on use is just good for amps or aoe

[ashen cedar]

ahh gotcha, thank you very much

[lilac stag]

Eleem had his chance to prove antenna good on dimmy and f’d it up

[outer osprey]

!log

[zinc venture]

Are there thresholdes for where you want your mastery and vers? Sim has me at 18.6k mastery but that just feels low

and 19.1k vers

[placid elk]

no thresholds

[shrewd lantern]

whenever sim tells you to get crit instead

[zinc venture]

Okay that's literally what happened xD

[shrewd lantern]

i dont know any of my stat numbers

[hazy breach]

Just dont get haste

[shrewd lantern]

not worth the mental capacity

[hazy breach]

And youre good

[slate lantern]

but my energy regen!!1!1!

[fallow ginkgo]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[celest night]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[celest night]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[lilac stag]

Have you met our lord and savior Vigor?

[shrewd lantern]

Have you met our lord and savior DN

[slate lantern]

Darkest Night?? EWWWW

WE GOT A DEATHSTALKER PLAYER OVER HERE

GET HIM

[shrewd lantern]

arrest every pvp andy

[lilac stag]

all 6 of them

One clown car to take them in

[toxic topaz]

Someone convince me to be a sub only player and stop having two gear sets and playing fatebound sin on single target please

[shrewd lantern]

I mean whats stopping you

None of the ST bosses are real bosses.

[toxic topaz]

Nothing lol. My sin sims like 200k higher so I just go sin single target

I just don’t like it at all.

[shrewd lantern]

then dont

frac is a glorified target dummy

[toxic topaz]

Real. I just needed someone else to say it ykwim

[west tide]

anyone crafting a ring this week

[shrewd lantern]

i might depending on what drops...

[iron plover]

I saw someone at 719 ilvl last week

Is that even possible

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah

[iron plover]

crazy

[shrewd lantern]

power of splits

[iron plover]

They most definitely crossed 720+ this week

[shrewd lantern]

and reaching later bosses earlier

[alpine wraith]

yea there are some 720+

[shrewd lantern]

earlier you kill salad earlier you can get 717 raid vaults

[west tide]

im 716.19 havent spent my gilded yet this week

[iron plover]

oh damn

[hazy knoll]

got my double on use now

time to feel the pain

[iron plover]

They must’ve killed M Salad last week

must’ve been in a top guild then?

[shrewd lantern]

tbh its also debatable

some top guilds stop playing for the tier

after they get it

[twilit gorge]

is our sim still broke

[rapid estuary]

AYO

[night sparrow]

tough

[rapid estuary]

Seaforium or Lily for keys tho

[placid crown]

focusing adds on rou'ehtar

let me tell you i parse green

😅

[slate lantern]

Do you have prism

[rapid estuary]

not yet, i have a hero lily

[slate lantern]

Prob seaforium then, cause you'll just want to run prism once you get that

[rapid estuary]

yeah thats what I'm trying to figure out is whats the best trinket combo out of (Lily or seaforium) + X

[pure pollen]

sims still broke?

[shell willow]

I have prism and sigil simming highest for me for patchwerk its kinda offputting but sobeit

[mental kettle]

is it possible to parse without raid trinks

[fallow ginkgo]

prob myth seaforium since ur replacing lilly

[warm marlin]

this looks fixed

my sim looks normal

unless its a dslice issue or something

[white cove]

my sim from 1 min ago is still -300k from last night

[warm marlin]

are you on latest?

the flag duration thing is for sure fixed for me

[white cove]

nope good call

[hazy breach]

Yeah seems fixed

[dusty totem]

Is there an easy way to force sims not to cast BP? (Nevermind figured it out "skip_actions=black_powder")

[honest grail]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[pure pollen]

^^ do you guys macro in tempered potion too?

[honest grail]

Nah dud these bitches cost money

[narrow shadow]

I macro tempered potion to all my keys

[pure pollen]

all your keys? xD

[rancid crow]

much better 🤤

[honest grail]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusty totem]

Does sec tech have negative funnel?

[rancid crow]

cleave

?

[honest void]

negative funnel?

like it loses more dmg with more targets?

[dusty totem]

Does sec tech do less main target dmg with more targets around?

[hazy breach]

It does the same damage to the main target regardless

[honest void]

^

it just has a cleave aspect to it

but the dmg to the target doesn't change

[hazy breach]

But the 5 other targets that take the cleave damage does take less damage per target if you have more targets

[dusty totem]

Just trying to figure out why main target dmg is lower in this sim https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vMyaJzFUgGCMWN7MNWLK7o/simc then in thishttps://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xahsZULnwA3ip9JBM3oTdR

I disabled BP for the 10 target sim

[rancid crow]

10 target? I've been doing 1 target lol. What are we supposed to sim?

[dusty totem]

Was just to see what our prio dmg would be in m+ packs

[rancid crow]

ohh

[hazy breach]

Well the sim strikes other targets to spread FW

[dusty totem]

Ahh well that makes it more diffcult

[hazy breach]

The easiest way would be to enable priority_rotation=1

[dusty totem]

Tried that https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fCneoNKrqiDxSY835VJSmC/simc

Still slightly lower but closer

[rancid crow]

I broke my sim lol

[hazy breach]

we havent optimized much for the priority_rotation thing

Since it kinda doesnt matter anymore

[dusty totem]

No no that is fair

Makes sense

[hazy breach]

Was more relevant before

[dusty totem]

But we would guess that we should be doing slightly more that our st dps with funnel right?

just beacuse of ss generating more cp

If we do full st rotation ofc

[hazy breach]

Ye very slightly more

[dusty totem]

Yeah just was confused by the numbers thanks for the help

I suspect that the lower number might be due to flawless form having a lower mean stack uptime of 8.6 vs 10.34

[shrewd lantern]

sub funnel is fake

[dusty totem]

Yeah i know

[shrewd lantern]

made up joke by bozos who havent played the class in years

Let me hit em with those juiced non dance evis

that'll teach

[dusty totem]

But there should still be either a decrease or an increase in the number and i was curius what the number was

[shrewd lantern]

If anything you probably lose damage

since you just merk every little turd

with the cleave secret/coup do

[pure pollen]

whats the downside to macroing tempered potion w/ dance? feel like if i dont macro it I'm just not going to use it cause extra bind goes crazy

[shrewd lantern]

your wallet

[dusty totem]

U will end up using tempered on a non flag dance

[shrewd lantern]

also that

[pure pollen]

i gots $ hahah, used to gold farm for fun. and truee

[dusty totem]

If u want to macro macro the pot to ur shadow blades

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[pure pollen]

how do you do it, just press an extra button?

[shrewd lantern]

macro it to blades is what hes saying

If you're gonna macro it to burst

[dusty totem]

\casy shadow blades
\use item:"Enter item id of potion"

[pure pollen]

i got that, just curious what he prefers personally

[dusty totem]

Ohh i macro it like that

ohh actually i changed recently to be macroed to my prism

Since i only press prism when i am in cds

But if u run double on use i think macroing to blades is better

[pure pollen]

ahh makes sense, appreciate you guys

[tidal marsh]

are those fuckin' backwards slashes

[whole patio]

Just swapped to rogue, after crafting a 720 weapon should I just sim and craft lowest slots next or is there something specific to craft?

[tidal marsh]

Simming is always the answer

Sending on wrist is a pretty safe bet though

long-term at least

[crystal rain]

Quick question, asked this before around degen hours so i didnt get an answer then probs, but why are people running the rotten over finality in m+? Is finality not more dps vs 2 crits? Or are we using the crit procs to apply weakness to everything?

[astral axle]

simming never hurts. shoulders are our off-piece and wrists are usually nice to craft too, yee

[astral axle]

rotten can be slightly better if you have lower crit

the difference between the two is probably going to be small

see #subtlety message for further discussion

[pure pollen]

for patchwerk (ST) my sim is showing ritual forge as only a 4-5k dps increase. If I'm not comfortable playing double on use atm you guys think its better to just stick to prism and my passive trinket?

[near stratus]

raidbots sims fixed?

[pure pollen]

someone said they were but I'm not 100%

[hazy breach]

Yes

[lavish rose]

is sec tech amplified by chaos brand?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[lavish rose]

w

now why do i never get invited to keys with a dh...

[hazy breach]

Doesnt matter that much, its 3%

[hazy knoll]

I did heroic soul hunters from class with zero addons

Parsed 15%

[dusty totem]

I use Latex too much lul

[plush glen]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[lilac stag]

Or just put them both on a blades and have forge listed first.

It’s not that much to get used to 2x fwiw

[hazy knoll]

Only tricky if youre used to a one size fits all macro (like me)

But ive been 2x on use as blood since last season so I'm very used to it now

[lilac stag]

you’ll figure out pretty quick oh guess I should have sent prism there. Whoops

[dense coyote]

hows sub looking right now pretty okay ?

[steel jolt]

subtle

[hazy breach]

Good on bosses where you can pad on small adds and/or with damage amps

Awful if not

[dense coyote]

what types of things are considered a damage amp ?

[hazy breach]

Things that amplify damage taken

Mostly for a short period

[dense coyote]

ohh like burn phases sorta?

[hazy breach]

So forgeweaver, nexus king and dimensius

[dense coyote]

where do poeple find the logs showing the top damage dealers?

ive always wndered that wehre to find that

[steel jolt]

warcraftlogs.com

[slate lantern]

or lorrgs.io for another way to view them

[hazy breach]

Im not expecting any buffs either since were good on the last boss

So we'll probably stay the worst spec on pure ST

[iron plover]

joy

[tepid trellis]

anything is possible just look at the recent BM buffs

[hazy breach]

Fair

And they also didnt buff assa

[north wren]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tepid trellis]

we just need our HC stats to be bottom 5 then we get buffs

[iron plover]

i will volunteer as tribute

[dense coyote]

so i guesss frost dk is looking good bleh

[short radish]

does this mean you dont need to use dinars for anything?

[warm marlin]

my dh boots are still heroic

but otherwise ya

maybe lily is good on some really fast farm fights

[short radish]

yeah with turbo boost surely plexus becomes 4 min or something

[sullen yarrow]

1 question
where do we send black powder and shuriken on st

[short radish]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[short radish]

you dont bp in ST

unless they decide to buff it again

[warm marlin]

renown bug returns

[short radish]

someone got 800 rep

[brisk thunder]

!cheese

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[leaden thunder]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[wispy crystal]

If there is a priority targets in M+, do we still black powder or Evis at 4+ targets?

For example the big giant beetle dude in ara kara.

Or a dangerous mob that needs to die like the guy who casts loyal beasts in Halls?

[lilac stag]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[pure pollen]

oh shit i might try that out, it will always choose forge first?

then prism second assuming forge will be on cd?

[lucid jackal]

Yep

[pure pollen]

W probably worth having prism on an extra button just incase of mechanics and having to hold cds for whatever reason. that way if youre full stacks of prism you have the option?

[lucid jackal]

Correct

[pure pollen]

sweet, appreciate you

[strange chasm]

@lucid jackal you think lust spot changes now with all the damage we have for dim?

[lucid jackal]

Wdym

[strange chasm]

like during prog you lust p1 then so on and so on so you can lust p3

do you think you still need p3 lust

[tepid trellis]

you stop dmg in p1/p2

so yeh

you prolly still just lust p3

you wanna skip as much as you can in p3

[warm depot]

bleh how am i supposed to beat arcane mages on dimensius

[tepid trellis]

snipe p2 adds before he does

[strange chasm]

do you hold prism until p3 amp once you start getting to platforms?

[tepid trellis]

u prism platform 1

then hold it for p3 burn

[warm depot]

i did bbeat them in p2

just lost out in p3 sadge

[dapper jasper]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[raw wadi]

The thing is you will loose much value if you don't get blessing of autum at Plattform 2.
You should also load CPs/Supercharger before leaving the Plattform. If you are really fast with flying you will loose around 4 seconds of the dmp in P3.
Means you have to send CDs immediately after landing at plattform. Your second dance of your cd window will fit the add spawn. Means you hit all voidwarden/nullbinder/named add with second dance.

[lucid jackal]

Imagine if I had prism or forge

[pure jay]

any tips/tricks for mythic saladbar? seems like just sending CD's

[heady shell]

is netherprism bad for raid as my only on use?

[lucid jackal]

Nope

[lucid jackal]

Cd on CD

dont die

thats it

[bright oxide]

how can i see all possible comand? like !coup, !prism

[raw wadi]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tepid trellis]

ya cant

[raw wadi]

@tepid trellis but someone can

[warm depot]

interesting

[tepid trellis]

yes me

[raw wadi]

The holy racoon

https://tenor.com/view/froze-stop-moving-not-moving-still-standing-gif-16669739

[fallen depot]

if i have mythic lily and hero antenna and just got Prism do i drop lily?

[bright oxide]

i saw one with links to help understande logs

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[raw wadi]

I also shadowstep the add on Plattform 2 to get a good dmg amp value. I also start loading when second nullbinders are low.

[raw wadi]

Lorrgs.io ?

[bright oxide]

it was like a image show on warcraftlogs how your cooldown windows should look like

[tepid trellis]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[bright oxide]

thats it, ty

[flint furnace]

i ran sims and its close do you all recommend nether prism plus antena or nether and ritual forge

[warm depot]

during the knockback? or just in general

ive been cloaking the 2nd add kb to get more uptime on it

[fallen depot]

sim says use it over myth track lily

[jade oasis]

do yall pop cds on salad bar adds?

[tepid trellis]

Yes

[steel sierra]

Is it possible to save up stacks of the prism before a boss pull, use it before you pull and maintain the buff at the start?

[wispy crystal]

Then what about the part when dragon takes 100% more damage?

[warm marlin]

it starts with 6 seconds left on flag's cooldown so you flag when it comes up

[tepid trellis]

You do both

[jade oasis]

!log

first ever raid boss on sub

feel like im doing a lot wrong :c

[raven maple]

Is it optimal to have araz and prism? I sim them and it sims bad

[jade oasis]

its BiS no?

[wooden wagon]

!log

[pure jay]

anyone ever feel like their nimble flurry is bugged?

[raven maple]

It is but Im trying to bring up specific numbers

[lucid jackal]

No prism, no forge again

Fuck my chungus life

[brisk creek]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[brisk creek]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[pine mirage]

for forge

do you guys send idol on add spawn

so hold a couple globals during flag

or right with flag

[ripe flame]

frac reclear

the most contested slot of all time

boots

[tired dome]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[tired dome]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[tired dome]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[frail kindle]

hold on dimensius for 30 seconds batchest

[chrome palm]

we can sit on parthos in cloak and not fuck the raid with orbs right

[frail kindle]

full shadow techniques and supercharger

yeah

you just have to move right afterwards

[chrome palm]

w

ty

right before orbs shoot?

[frail kindle]

i wiped the raid once by cloaking and soaking all the orbs at once LMAO

[chrome palm]

huge

i wiped the raid

[frail kindle]

uh we have a weakaura that just buzzes when we have to move

[chrome palm]

by shrouding us on pull

which you keep while you go through the gate

and the boss reset and killed everyone

[frail kindle]

LOL

banger

[bleak night]

good transmog tho

[ripe flame]

already had it

[ember hound]

does anyone know what enchant recipes enchanters get next week? wondering if we get some dam boost from them lol.

can't seem to find any info on them

[uncut oriole]

Yo how is eradicating salvo killing me through cloak?

[shrewd lantern]

damn my sim really doesnt like alpha

[open vortex]

you have to cloak within the last 1s of the cast

[uncut oriole]

Damn I used it at 1.1 seconds...

[open vortex]

ya i think feint works on it

so you can just feint the initial hit and then cloak off everything after

that works too

[uncut oriole]

Weird that doesn't immune the whole thing though...

[indigo bloom]

does anyone have a good hekili profile for sub?

[slate lantern]

/hekili disable works well for me

https://tenor.com/view/wheeze-laugh-gif-14359545

[pure jay]

!log

[lucid jackal]

WINNER

[wicked urchin]

gz man!

so anyone else in the "no mythic loot the entire tier" club?

this is hell

[lucid jackal]

Not exactly but almost

[icy mulch]

we had a healer get the gilded achievement today

[jade oasis]

i got prism today :)

rolled a 4 on forge tho

:(

[fleet wharf]

is there a such thing as too much mastery rn?

[cursive spear]

When sim says stop

[fleet wharf]

but not based on DR values, just sim it until it stops being a damage increase over other options?

[lucid jackal]

Just sim

DOnt think

[stiff stirrup]

I got myth track chest…from the auction house

[round latch]

disgusting

congrats

[civic lava]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hushed roost]

We hit renown 7 this week right?

[wicked urchin]

13 kills no loot here

too broke for auction house

smile

[devout knot]

guys need help to pick, cursed stone idol sims the best but from what i see nobody plays it, and its low tier, what to pick here?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1ASPQyrhs13eJP6nzphqrJ

[old spindle]

I have Heroic Prism. do i go forge and play double on use?!

[jade oasis]

#1417690269305798696 please 😕

[jade oasis]

that’s what i would do

[old spindle]

Im feeling that too. nothing else is really jumping out at me

[plain void]

holy wis vault

[upbeat sorrel]

Socket is bis

[astral axle]

pls no

[short radish]

just dont play it. it's not worth the hassle

[astral axle]

It does not seem it at all

thank you for the reassurance 😭

[short radish]

np

[astral axle]

[short radish]

[compact meadow]

i've never seen such a turbo trash vault

[short radish]

yeah

thats pretty garbo

[earnest sage]

[quiet smelt]

best way to sim sub for m+?

[random comet]

[lilac stag]

dslice for gearing. the tldr ilvl and avoid haste

[clever delta]

fucking socket time 😄 or free upgrade on neck

[daring marlin]

ring or dagger, i know my guild wont give me the ring

its plexus ring

[lilac stag]

alpha?

[daring marlin]

yes

[wintry heart]

RIP I got the raid belt from the weekly

[lilac stag]

It’s a good ring for both. Likely need to move enchants and greens around a bit on sub

[coarse agate]

whats the commands for the 2 on use trinkets?

[haughty rose]

first time this season having vault luck. so far every myth gear i got from vaul had haste and so'leah trinket (which i refuse to play)

[uneven shard]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shrewd lantern]

its sim kind of poop for me

[brisk thunder]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[fossil forge]

https://tenor.com/view/sadgecry-sadge-cry-gif-18423674

[hardy agate]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[scenic plover]

how is each of my vaults such a letdown and how is that damn trinket in there for the 3rd week

[inner grail]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[slender echo]

!log

[tacit parrot]

is wowanalizer updated for Sub?

[woeful rain]

finallyyy

[narrow shadow]

Hey guys, is belt a viable craft now wit hthe nerfs to disc?

[shrewd lantern]

it always has been

just less likely to be worth over other slots for people

[clever holly]

For m+ would u say macroing ritual forge to blades is OK since if I press it on CD i should be able to alternate between forge and prism?

[scenic plover]

the nerfs arent here yet tho so keeep that in mind

[narrow shadow]

ye in like 4 weeks no?

[scenic plover]

thats what i am doing and it works pretty good, just make sure forge is first in the macro

[scenic plover]

ye but deciding on a item today for a potential use in 4 weeks would be kinda low value no?

[narrow shadow]

Who said I'm deciding on an item today? I was just asking if belt will be a viable craft once disc belt is nerfed

[tribal blade]

thank god for that

just 17 ara for resil

[scenic plover]

sorry for assuming then but you asked about "now" and today is reset day

[narrow shadow]

Reset day was yesterday

[hoary bloom]

lily worth?

[outer osprey]

Should Coup be used on cooldown as long as the target is fazed in single target?

[sleek sierra]

Yo guys, when I'm checking the top M+ sub rogues, most of them have around 20% crit, 100% mastery and 30% vers. I have similar stats, SIMs tell me to go more crit for a minor dps increase. I do have Antenna for crit procs.

Would you guys just go vers/mastery on off-pieces, while keeping 20/100/30 in mind. Or would you follow the sims?

[shrewd lantern]

i mean belt was always worth in endgame

just its usually not a good crest spend early on

[tribal blade]

only really worth if you don't have prism

you can combine prism+lily together if you have prism, but it's not as good as prism+forge

[shrewd lantern]

bruh tf is this

just go by sim

[hoary bloom]

got prism on champ track, idk what to pick

[tribal blade]

just follow sim, doesn't matter what anyone else has

[tribal blade]

honestly hard to say

[fossil forge]

@tribal blade did u get prism gangy

[tribal blade]

not in vault and we haven't killed frac yet

but i did finally get some raid loot

[shrewd lantern]

i am so close to 5m sub sim

[tribal blade]

i'm now 716 ilvl

[shrewd lantern]

that 2k is a 723 logic alpha

lmfao

[fossil forge]

godrolling streak had to end eventually

Socket bis

[scenic plover]

damn what does your gear look like?

[shrewd lantern]

715

swap the neck for vers mast

[scenic plover]

if i send all crests this week i might get 4900

[shrewd lantern]

and first ring for vers mast db

[scenic plover]

maybe i get very lucky and fractillus drops trinket + raidlead goes over his own and another hunters bigger sim

[shrewd lantern]

i need mythic reshi

[scenic plover]

whats thtat

[shrewd lantern]

boots

casual 70k over normal

[rocky lava]

is there a way to sim with the upcoming, .5 patch's nerfed belt values? got double myth belt in vault and cant decide

[shrewd lantern]

No you were gonna take a myth belt even without nerf

nerf just accelerates that

[rocky lava]

i get it, still its -0.7 and -0.6 w/o nerf : )

[shrewd lantern]

at 723?

doubt

[rocky lava]

yup

[shrewd lantern]

ok you sim is weird then

[rocky lava]

did sim it both ST and dslice, thats why im asking 😄 its weird af

[shrewd lantern]

probably ask a tc

idk if they want to bother

[rocky lava]

could be that I have 25.2k mast/23k vers and 2.5k crit so it skewes the value of crit

[shrewd lantern]

maybe thats a deep fried stat dist

[near jetty]

simc is broken?

[short radish]

myth belt sims ahead of delve belt at max ilvl anyway

its not a waste

its just do you want it now or later

[near jetty]

?

[rocky lava]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qS1ryH9rfQ7w3joxhEzoB3

the 2 belts in question though

well rest of the vault is shit, so thats why im thinking between the belts

[near jetty]

it dont show me the currencies

for crafting

[grand hazel]

/wa

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[wild hornet]

sadge no antenna yet

[wild hornet]

hey

fuck you

[visual lark]

[wild hornet]

wait no its heroic antenna

nevermind

[near jetty]

peace maker isnt better with netherprism?

[tawdry warren]

How do I sim double on use vs 1 on use + 1 passive?

[vale pine]

Top geat

[near jetty]

open 2 pages of simc xD

[vale pine]

Gear

[sacred gull]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[near jetty]

mate can you check simc i cant find where i can use crafting currencies

[nova cairn]

Guys wtf do I take

[tawdry warren]

I mean does apl work correctly with these setups

Especially considering that 2nd on use is prism

With different amount of stacks

[willow bobcat]

Do you mean the sparks?

[near jetty]

y

[vale pine]

Bro just use the text file I provided in #tc-research it's pinned and you can just copy/past to top gear to get all seasonal or crafted gear to your selection

[willow bobcat]

Should be where you were looking. Did you try unchecking show all and rechecking it?

[sacred gull]

I stacked so much versa and mastery that the crit ring is now bis for me

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[near jetty]

i just want too know i shpudl craft dagger or ring is that possible too do with that APL?

[near jetty]

yeap nothing changed

[willow bobcat]

Try a different browser

[near jetty]

ah kk

[nova cairn]

Ye gonna start the sim

[vale pine]

You just sim it

There is no need for apl

[near jetty]

yeah thats the point i cant do that cuz currencies dont show too me and i cant choose crafting items without it

[native zodiac]

Ring

[gritty kite]

What are the advantages of tea over cold blood? For me, cold blood sims more than tea. Or is it just playstyle? m+

[nova cairn]

ye that shit sims decent

[vale pine]

You can always max out the currency on raid bots if you need to. But as mentioned the specific channel has a text file in the pins you can use instead

[hushed roost]

!prism