thats correct
#subtlety
vale pine
- focus on improving your gear and play, this is the analytical approach and usually the best one
- reroll to the meta classes, because they do ~10% more damage everywhere
the 2nd approach has become WAY more common
because even if you play the class inefficient, you at most lose like 5% dps
shrewd lantern
meanwhile
vale pine
means you still benefit more if you reroll
vale pine
yes
wispy crystal
This needs to be pinned or post in your wowhead guide fuu.
So you set expectations from the start haha! Awesome 😎
vale pine
i just think
vale pine
everyone looks at balance diffrently
we had heated discussions in this channel because of it
because what many people do is
oh look, sub is op
vale pine
only take a small part of the subset of all bosses
shrewd lantern
ionic thorn
brisk onyx
tranquil pollen
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.
vale pine
oh look, sub is op
^ look at only a very specific subset like last 2 or even only last boss and decide how classes are tuned based on it
short radish
oh look, sub is op
isnt this the guy take
vale pine
yes
wispy crystal
- focus on improving your gear and play, this is the analytical approach and usu...
My raid leader can't drop me cause even though I do 10% less than other classes.
I bring atrophic poison !
ionic thorn
also I wanna lose it I feel like I probably coulda broke 10m this key if the tank wasn't pulling several 3 mob packs alone
sending 1.5m on a 3 or 5 mob pack is so aids
scenic plover
^ look at only a very specific subset like last 2 or even only last boss and dec...
Argueably the relevant bosses
vale pine
My raid leader can't drop me cause even though I do 10% less than other classes....
i am happy most raidleaders haven't figured out how weak atrophic is in general
wispy crystal
almost worst spec on plexus
I'm learning to save CDs only for shield phase. And hold off when he is about to hit 100 energy
scenic plover
i am happy most raidleaders haven't figured out how weak atrophic is in general
Just bring numbing and be a tank-bro :)
ionic thorn
i am happy most raidleaders haven't figured out how weak atrophic is in general
is it not just a flat 3% damage reduction?
vale pine
Argueably the relevant bosses
more than half of the guilds playing mythic will never kill the last 2
ionic thorn
or is it some weird interaction because "environmental damage"?
scenic plover
more than half of the guilds playing mythic will never kill the last 2
Very true but for the ones that do those will take the longest and will take the most effort right!
?
vale pine
is it not just a flat 3% damage reduction?
it is, but consider that most raids will have gear thats worth more than the 3% dr
scenic plover
Looking at our nexus king performance we wont kill them either :/
wispy crystal
are always heavy on plate dps
Because the zug caters to casuals well!
Frost dk / rets / fury warrior. Easier to do well and easier to play
ionic thorn
it is, but consider that most raids will have gear thats worth more than the 3% ...
I mean a 3.6% while it sounds pretty meh does add up to a considerable amount if it's flat across the board to all encounter damage
ionic thorn
sure
vale pine
because you can pack another arcane mage instead
hollow spear
Any raid buff kinda does
vale pine
and just kill the boss faster
ionic thorn
Any raid buff kinda does
not really
vale pine
and bosses will be nerfed and gear levels higher
hollow spear
But dr matters less
vale pine
which means atrophic is mostly valuable on early progress
ionic thorn
anything that buffs damage stays a consistent value or actually increases in value if you can start skipping things
wispy crystal
But rogues we bring high priority damage.
In raid and also in keys right?
vale pine
or speedkills if you need the extra dr to play with lower amounts of healers
balance is a fascinating topic if you consider m+ too
^^
hollow spear
No raid buff in the world helps you not be slow to react to stuff
ionic thorn
Most guilds don't struggle with damage
there's at least 49% of mythic guilds who rank below average in damage
vale pine
a good argument against atrophic is
hollow spear
Kek
ionic thorn
that intermission sucks if pillars take long af
hollow spear
That's just how things are
vale pine
exactly
wispy crystal
The fractilus ranking is really quite funny 🤣.
We can't even backstab the boss can we? It's basically a frontstab
vale pine
ye
hollow spear
If our single target was competitive on fractillus we'd be op on the bosses we're already strong at
ionic thorn
I do somewhat miss being dev evoker just to not feel obliged to play all 3 specs depending on boss
hollow spear
Thanks to our kit
vale pine
i haven't checked in logs
but bosses with gigant hitboxes liek fraktilus or dimensius
typically act like you are behind the boss always
ionic thorn
usually if the boss can't physically be backstabbed it counts no matter where
vale pine
^ exactly
ionic thorn
at least from my memory
hollow spear
Fractillus doesn't
vale pine
seems like a fuckup on blizz end to me
hollow spear
Not sure for dimmi
vale pine
i personally think one of the bugs they sadly fixed this tier made rogue rly valuable in raid
wispy crystal
If our single target was competitive on fractillus we'd be op on the bosses we'r...
Can only hope for rogue overall damage buffs.
There used to be this thing called hybrid tax back in the day.
And pure classes like rogues would be topping single target charts along with hunters/mages/locks
ionic thorn
not like you're missing the backstab value much anyways
vale pine
basically fazed counted for the entier raid for s1 and s2
ionic thorn
Can only hope for rogue overall damage buffs.
There used to be this thing call...
hybrid tax is cringe
and it's good that it's gone
wispy crystal
and it's good that it's gone
Yes, but Ret with it's 1 button rotation out damage a sub rogue is also kinda a nut kick at the same time
vale pine
basically fazed counted for the entier raid for s1 and s2
which, hot take incomming
ionic thorn
Yes, but Ret with it's 1 button rotation out damage a sub rogue is also kinda a ...
why
vale pine
did mean subtlety was possibly better on mugzee than assassiantion
hollow spear
That has nothing to do with ret being part of a hybrid class
vale pine
wdym ret hybrit tax?
ionic thorn
spec difficulty shouldn't just automatically mean you're better than easier specs
vale pine
i mean it does not
ionic thorn
I know
vale pine
subtlety was many times even the worse performer on wcl
ionic thorn
He's saying it sucks that ret can be omega simple and beat us
vale pine
while it was and still is one if not the hardest specs in game to play
so there is clearly no corellation based on difficulty of execution
and damage output
hollow spear
If every class was as difficult (ig that's subjective) as sub, wow would have a problem
ionic thorn
every spec has its day, I honestly care less about the general performance of the spec in comparison to others as long as it is a reasonably acceptable band of performance difference
I care far more about the class bugs
vale pine
like
subtlety was for many tiers the least played in the game
for 2 entire xpacs basically non existent
hollow spear
I'm fine with how things are
vale pine
it became better with DF/TWW
ionic thorn
I'd take a 4% buff sure
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would turn their nose up at a buff in general lol
vale pine
but subtlety for tww was mostly good on early progression and fell off a cliff after
e.g. in s2 ended up the literally worse dps in the entire game
wispy crystal
for 2 entire xpacs basically non existent
Yesssssss, we finally have our time in the sun now.
Buffs would be nice. Even a small 3-4% buff would be awesome
vale pine
if you look at m+
s1 subtlety was not played at all
s2 we saw a slight increase, still not rly played
hollow spear
We've got a 2nd rogue rn, maybe I'll try warrior or mage next season
vale pine
this seaon is the first you actually play it in m+ too
vale pine
and its in part because assassiantion got nerfed and we have op trinkets ^^
quaint lodge
basically fazed counted for the entier raid for s1 and s2
sad
i miss having a hidden raid buff
vale pine
so tuning is not considering a healthy balance where we switch specs
quaint lodge
everytime kingsbane got parried i wished i was playing sub last season
vale pine
but many times just favors one over the other
hollow spear
That's kind of a pipe dream anyways
vale pine
i think a lot of people
assume balance goes with "take turns"
and thats how it works on certain classes
like mage
mage is always good, but whats considered the best will vary a lot depending on tier
hollow spear
Balance is quite a lot tighter than it used to be
limpid sage
We've got a 2nd rogue rn, maybe I'll try warrior or mage next season
Fury is fun
Feels great having dmg perma
short radish
thing is as well and this might be slight class bias, but it feels like there are some really fucking good perma rogue players who always play rogue in m+
vale pine
Balance is quite a lot tighter than it used to be
balance this tier would be good if you just nerf the top 5-6 specs, they deal ~10% more than everything below them
hollow spear
If you parse 97-98 on sub, you should parse 104 on fury, right?
vale pine
there are less "bad" outliners
short radish
which is why there's always some representation even if the class is dog shit
vale pine
i don't think m+ is actively tuned
it seems to always focus on raiding
and if we look back at the discussion
hollow spear
They will do some pruning in m+
limpid sage
If you parse 97-98 on sub, you should parse 104 on fury, right?
The nice thing is that you can pretty consistently parse 99
vale pine
raid tuning can be seen in a lot of ways, many will only consider 2 bosses relevant
hollow spear
Unholy dk got nerfed specifically for m+, it wasn't crazy in raid
limpid sage
Because you’re playing against droolers and don’t have nearly as big variation
hollow spear
The nice thing is that you can pretty consistently parse 99
Too many sub otp, it's crazy
limpid sage
Ya I really feel it on our kills as well
vale pine
its not only about otp's
^ this is very relevant
outside of kill times
you depend to a degree on "padding on adds" to compete
and getting procs ^^
limpid sage
The top players always play with good players as well though
hollow spear
That's true
limpid sage
So they’re guaranteed good kill timers
hollow spear
My parses could have been better if we hadn't spent 30 seconds single targeting soul binder 
vale pine
if you kill the boss before 3rd intermission
you will do more damage
than if you do after
and the difference is not individual player skill but how strong your group is
limpid sage
if you kill the boss before 3rd intermission
Ya ours left on 7% or something
hollow spear
But what I'm saying is: it's easy on all classes to get to 95+, but it feels harder on sub to get to 98+
vale pine
one of the 3rd party websites of wow
midnight ivy
hello, i have a noob question about mastery %, does sub rogue have a cap over 100% when using CDs? because i'm actually at 94% base from stuff and i wondered if i lose some mastery by getting over the 100% cap after i use whistle tea for exemple
vale pine
did at one point try to make a point about player skill and log rank
and they found that the top rank could play 5-10% worse on certain fights
and would still be rank 1
just because of rng, kill times, how many compete etc
logs are not a "fair" comparison
oblique burrow
Look at outlaw logs on soul hunters
vale pine
we just assume they are
vale pine
a good example i personally experienced was in a guild i went when i came back to wow with my gf
dreamy badger
I mean if your logs are good, chances are that you are good
If you are greylogging you are not blaming that on rng
vale pine
the guild had 2 teams, a hardcore progression team and a team that goes in more chill to fights
my gf being completely new to the game, we both joined the chill team
hollow spear
That argument should hold true on all specs though
vale pine
now, the hardcore team had the high parsers, etc
hollow spear
And my anecdotal evidence says it's harder on sub
vale pine
but what happend was, they had a bit too many players, and sometimes the chill team needed help
now some players helped out in the "2nd team"
but there was a for them not discribable effect
the top parser suddenly got outparsed by e.g. me and other players in the team
how can this happen?
he clearly had better logs
in all of the first team
limpid sage
He was chillplaying 
limpid sage
I guess there’s an even greater ratio of which your logs are affected by kill duration when looking at burst classes ye
vale pine
like for sub
e.g. getting a bit of cdr from paladin
can make a huge diffrence on certain kill timers
hollow spear
I need to pay off our holy paladin
vale pine
but yes, my point is not that top logs are bad players
limpid sage
Because your burst window relative to your soup window becomes a lot smaller
vale pine
these players are def. good within the best possible
but parsing has a lot to do with being in an enviroment which allows you to parse too
and as much as we assume that every raid team is equal, reality is we compete with a lot of bad and inefficient teams
hollow spear
I agree with your point Misfosster
While your point is obviously true, fuu, it applies globally
hollow spear
Bless you with the seasons
hollow spear
Imma ask him to season me up
oblique burrow
never thought about it that way
limpid sage
I agree with your point Misfosster
If you assume every cd window is ~20 seconds, then going from a 2 min kill to a 5 min kill means going from 33% burst uptime to a 26% burst uptime
Which relative to eachother is like 20% less burst uptime when 5 min killtimer
Kinda crazy actually
vale pine
i mean
wcl gives you information about external buffs
but the discussion around them just died out
and people forget they exist
e.g. all 3 top logs on the first boss got autumn
and you see it used on multiple fights when it makes sense
keen dome
Hell yeah
vale pine
nice, congrats
fossil forge
Only holy paladin can give this no?
rare sparrow
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.
short radish
@tribal blade how the fuck do you pug keys man. i bricked a 16 gambit down to a 13 floodgate
people out there are acutally terrible
zinc venture
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
fossil forge
just give up putting everyone hates the yellow class
i was in q simulator for 7 hours yday and i got into 3 keys
short radish
bro the 16 gambit i bricked last night. key was a brick for numerous reasons
that was party wide
and also healer being dumb
fossil forge
only way to get into a key nowdays is to Pay the jews with the resil keys
i despise
The tipping culture
short radish
but then i get to listen to the tank simping on the healers vod "oh and it was multiple reasons like hte party comp. i hate rogues man i have to finish combat and let them stealth. im never playing with a rogue again"
????????????
i never once asked for a restealth
the pulls were fine
the key was bricked because of everyone dying on dragon boss then twice before last boss
and the healer sitting in ghost wolf at 70% health for 5 seconds then dying to the line
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
fossil forge
classic
karmic harbor
rogue needs a grip
short radish
Im gearing dk and dh
dont be this DH
hollow spear
dont be this DH
Watch me
short radish
Give us smoke bomb los again
thats raid utility and is banned
keen dome
Give us smoke bomb los again
YES
short radish
it'd allow one class to be able to unfairly reposition random adds
that are far away
and that are ranged so won't walk in
short radish
fuck ranged.
limpid sage
adds that cast shoot perma and do not move are my favorite
keen dome
Wait for them to pop something big while they're standing in ironforge and then BAM, smoke bomb
vagrant fulcrum
Towards minmaxxing cc
Cheap shot is a lot more accessible for sub / OL and comes at a lower opportunity cost than OL pays to press it, other than that nothing really to say outside kidney and blind
vale pine
dont be this DH
isn't dying part of their calss fantasy
i swear dh has fell rush only to charge into frontals
short radish
honestly given the average DH, you're not wrong
what i dont understand right
is this is the tank
why was he leaping there?
keen dome
The average DH experience is they leap into the pack. They die. They drop a slur. They leave the key.
short radish
me using warcraft recorder is not doing good things for my toxicity levels
because before when someone does something stupid
i forget about it after the key
now i can go back and look at it again
and get even madder
keen dome
You need to get one of those finger pointers to tap the screen with
vale pine
is warcraft recorder a obs plugin?
karmic harbor
only way to play with good players is to do 20 keys, ggnore
short radish
is warcraft recorder a obs plugin?
standalone i think
works really well auto recording
oh
keen dome
I had a real tilting key yesterday I'm still not over.
short radish
vale pine
haha
short radish
I had a real tilting key yesterday I'm still not over.
share it with the class. this is a safe space
vale pine
keen dome
Zero DPS healer who didn't kick or use utility or hero or do anything, and somehow still managed to die 6!!! times and when the key is over they go "NO FLAME"
short radish
average passenger princess healer
keen dome
I imagine they're one of the people who think M+ is super toxic. And everyone is nasty.
runic trail
Might have been having a bad day maybe
keen dome
And it's true because they're so bad at the game they make it worse for everyone
short radish
i died because the healer was streaming and had only one hand on the keyboard because they were talking and describing something
keen dome
Might have been having a bad day maybe
Their damage at the end of the +13 Eco
runic trail
Their damage at the end of the +13 Eco
Huge
keen dome
Worst part is we would've timed it anyway but a DPS decided to lose their keyboard and die on the final boss, on the first soak.
karmic harbor
this season is like the easiest m+ season ever, the people doing 13s aren't real they're bots who sell the account once they get 3k io (im not schizophrenic)
keen dome
Ye, it really is the easiest. I don't mind it but I'm def seeing more people who don't belong in higher keys (myself)
I think S2 had a better balance? but it's w/e, just funny and frustrating
runic trail
I'm just happy I can mindlessly wander through my weekly 10s and then not touch m+ again
keen dome
I'm lucky I get to play with really really good players sometimes
And I get to have good perspective of how I am not that good. it's very healthy
short radish
I'm just happy I can mindlessly wander through my weekly 10s and then not touch ...
yeah i was happy doing my weekly 10s and getting 3k sometime whenever i could be stuffed doing 14s.
then last week i get scammed into a 17 by an old mate and now apparently im a p*sher again
runic trail
Also, I managed to get myself benched on soul hunters prog, I'm big chilling right now.
keen dome
Hell yeah big chilling
runic trail
yeah i was happy doing my weekly 10s and getting 3k sometime whenever i could be...
Friends don't let friends push keys
runic trail
Hell yeah big chilling
Soul hunters mythic is not the kind of fight I vibe with
karmic harbor
Also, I managed to get myself benched on soul hunters prog, I'm big chilling rig...
same, the other rogue plays outlaw so i just got to chill but we're on nexus king now 
keen dome
I've been playing CB over tea this reset and I like it way more.
short radish
Friends don't let friends push keys
the only way to win is to not play
yeah CB is just comfier
runic trail
same, the other rogue plays outlaw so i just got to chill but we're on nexus kin...
I requested the bench before the other rogue so I've saddled him with this burden
karmic harbor
i dont think ill play cb in keys because its the same keybind as blackpowder and im not changing it
shadow lance
That's so cursed
karmic harbor
i dont press black powder
runic trail
Real
limpid sage
banned
keen dome
i dont think ill play cb in keys because its the same keybind as blackpowder and...
hero
Never change, you are perfect
runic trail
I can't talk about keybinds, assa chat bullied me over my binds
vale pine
i use these keys and f keys
karmic harbor
god i hate using shift/ctrl modifiers
keen dome
I can't use shift with my hand placement so I have to use ctrl. I can't hit alt, either, easily.
fossil forge
I love using shift and alt
karmic harbor
im fine with alt
short radish
i use these keys and f keys
based function key enjoyer
fossil forge
My hs is bound to shift spacebar 
keen dome
Rupture on F3?? amazing
short radish
Rupture on F3?? amazing
i used to have envenom/evis on f2 for ages
keen dome
I use function keys for stances.
fossil forge
Could you dm me
limpid sage
I have function keys for util
short radish
until i realised it was probably smarter to swap shiv and evis
fossil forge
Mouseover rupture
hollow merlin
Can someone help, I did a +10 halls and did only 5.8mill ilvl710. My breakdown looks like this
keen dome
No netherprism will probably impact lower DPS
fossil forge
Where is coup bro
hollow merlin
its 4
short radish
Can someone help, I did a +10 halls and did only 5.8mill ilvl710. My breakdown ...
cant tell but i'm just going to assume you've held cooldowns for too long and dont do your rotation correctly
his coup is fine
keen dome
Would need more info to be sure anyway, post a loooooog
short radish
it doesnt on details
fossil forge
I stg it does for me
hollow merlin
My second guess was going to be netherprism
karmic harbor
keen dome
Netherprism is extremely impactful but won't fix fundamental issues (and may compound them) so a log would help to pick out what's happening 🙂
short radish
90% of the reason you will do shit damage in m+ is because you don't do your rotation correctly and you press flag every 2-2.5 minutes instead of 1.5-2minutes
the other 10% is because the tank pulls 3 mobs at a time
but that rarely happens
reminder that m+ is one really long boss fight
so if you hold for 30 seconds
every time
or 1 minute
keen dome
sometimes the tank is the boss
vale pine
also because i promised it yesterday, showcase of my hand on the keyboard so people can deteminate if i have super long fingers
short radish
and lose 4 casts over a dungeon
keen dome
Good claw grip
short radish
excellent, another picture to add to my hand collection
hollow merlin
Ill do another and send a log
keen dome
Looks like a pianoists hands
short radish
Ill do another and send a log
just dont hold flag. if you can get 80-90% of a flag usage before the pack dies
send it
vale pine
Looks like a pianoists hands
perfect for playing subtlety piano opener ^^
keen dome
short radish
same principle kinda also applies with sending regular dance/symbols
you dont want to end the pack on full charges
if you have a flag coming up
you can kinda get away with TFD and having only one charge of dance
but you kinda gotta just play more sub
cursive vapor
also because i promised it yesterday, showcase of my hand on the keyboard so peo...
yooo tecknet
short radish
and get the feel of it
vale pine
yooo tecknet
i got it because my gf found the mechanical one too loud ^^
fossil forge
Few more years of sublety gaming and carpal tunnel soon
short radish
nah man
vale pine
capal tunnel is more a outlaw thing
short radish
sub is the best spec for avoiding carpal tunnel
you have so much extended downtime
you can stretch your fingers and wrists
tribal blade
<@146180393941336064> how the fuck do you pug keys man. i bricked a 16 gambit do...
oh yeah it's pretty horrible
thing is you don't have resil yet so no insurance haha
any keys 16 or lower are below title range keys atm, so you get a lot of shitters
and once you brick the key, you have to relist the lower one and the quality of applicants you get goes lower and lower
it becomes a vicious cycle
resil "fixes" this problem, but then the issue becomes massive key inflation
basically blizz can't win no matter what they do
feral knot
we can't win*
tribal blade
TRUE
i thought resil would be a much better system, but having pushed with it for an entire season it's just as miserable
if not more miserable
i met a lot of people who hate resil
feral knot
people asking for gold to invite you to resil key ..
short radish
we can't win*
the only way to win is to not play
feral knot
> the only way to win is to not play
not an option
limpid sage
people asking for gold to invite you to resil key ..
I didn't understand this when I first got invited to one
tribal blade
> the only way to win is to not play
this is the answer
unless you play with a team or know people who are really good and have resil you can ride
limpid sage
he just opened trade window and whispered "anything pls" so I gave him 69 gold
short radish
yeah i got scammed into a +17 with a mate
limpid sage
then he got pissed and I didn't understand why
short radish
who was like 3 or 4 stack already
and it was so chill
and im like
oh
16s and 17s are pretty eays
i have my own key
lets just pug it or something
fucking nope
limpid sage
17 flood compared to 17 gambit as well
tribal blade
i got into a group with friends from last season this week and timed 17 flood and 17 hoa back to back super chill
pugging the last keys i need for 17 resil and just constant bricks from demons in lfg
short radish
17 flood compared to 17 gambit as well
im just cursed with mouthbreathers in floodgate
this fucking DK man
dead on 3 of the first 5 pulls
magic rune
Are our sims lower this week?
tribal blade
this fucking DK man
i've played with so many boosted dks
magic rune
Pretty sure i simmed 5m like 4 days ago, now i sim only 4.7m
tribal blade
lost 17 priory because i was doing 10+ mil overall and the dk was doing a bit over 8mil
karmic harbor
Pretty sure i simmed 5m like 4 days ago, now i sim only 4.7m
cant you just check your raidbots history
tribal blade
and this mofo has like 20-30 points on me
tribal blade
fdks, arcane mages and tanks atm are just mega boosted
limpid sage
this fucking DK man
tbf it's hard to stay alive as a dk
tribal blade
tbf it's hard to stay alive as a dk
ohyouarefunnyguy
fossil forge
fdks, arcane mages and tanks atm are just mega boosted
Classic meta abusers
tribal blade
yup it's really bad
fossil forge
I saw like 293747 dks
short radish
tbf it's hard to stay alive as a dk
he blamed the shaman for not kicking on his first death
meanwhile 0 defensives popped
he's also got a ranged kick
fossil forge
Only a few good ones
karmic harbor
tbf it's hard to stay alive as a dk
short radish
tribal blade
meanwhile 0 defensives popped
if only he had a magic immunity
short radish
speaking of magic immunities
watch this and see if you can spot what the DK did wrong
fossil forge
Bro only has a magic immunity for 5 people
limpid sage
LOL
short radish
tribal blade
oh lol did he pre ams
short radish
yeah
tribal blade
i've seen a dk do it this season
short radish
or post ams
tribal blade
monkeys
short radish
idk
he's just absolutely stupid
look at overall damage
+15 floodgate btw
i guess you cant do damage when youre floorpov every pull
limpid sage
these are the people that get insta invited because they play fdk btw
tribal blade
WAIT WHAT
short radish
tribal blade
bruh i could die that many times and i'd still be above the dk
karmic harbor
these are the people that get insta invited because they play fdk btw
im guilty of that, i want a dk in every group im in
short radish
these are the people that get insta invited because they play fdk btw
that was my mistake insta inviting FDKs
limpid sage
I check parses before
tribal blade
<@146180393941336064> <@166073317193678848> Whats yall avg on flood
hovering around 10 mil
short radish
im never inviting a dk again
cant fucking trust them
even if they parse well
this guy was an absolute parse monkey
fossil forge
Ye same ive been trying to hit the 11 though
short radish
97% ave in raid
so yeah he does good damage
dies on first pull because he's in breath popping cds
tribal blade
im never inviting a dk again
what if i told you dks are required in some keys smile
short radish
and doesnt want to pop a defensive cd
limpid sage
ya ok that's crazy
tribal blade
like priory
short radish
what if i told you dks are required in some keys smile
guess im not p*shing then
tribal blade
guess im not p*shing then
as the kids say, based
fossil forge
Dks are unfortunately mandatory in a few dungeons
tribal blade
i've started falling behind a bit because i've been doing stuff with guildies
and the quality of the dks in my keys now are abyssmal
doing no dmg
it's crazy
limpid sage
(I know it'd be unfair to the other rogue specs)
short radish
and the quality of the dks in my keys now are abyssmal
in a proper key should the DK do more or less damage than us?
limpid sage
dk more
tribal blade
in a proper key should the DK do more or less damage than us?
equal
if not more
hard to say
limpid sage
it's pretty close
tribal blade
i've never had a dk beat me in dawnbreaker
short radish
okay then every single DK i've played with is absolute garbage
limpid sage
i've never had a dk beat me in dawnbreaker
hard to chainpull in that dungeon as well
limpid sage
chainpull dungeons they're disgusting
fossil forge
can you do 90mil in cds as sub
short radish
this was the bricked gambit
keen dome
big
short radish
like IDK i acutally thought DK's were brought for util and surviv
and their damage was just above ave or something
fossil forge
hell nawh
short radish
i hate DKs
fossil forge
Lot of poopoo frosts but demonhunters been consistent this szn
from my pov at least
tribal blade
i've played with quite a few good havocs yeah
but i played with a shit one today, i did more prio to the 1st miniboss in priory than him
and he did no dmg
was crazy
karmic harbor
what site is this?
tribal blade
what site is this?
karmic harbor
ty
tribal blade
it's kinda taking an average, so it's not super accurate
tribal blade
but yeah
keen dome
okay then every single DK i've played with is absolute garbage
Same
I think it's meta issues. Volume of people playing what's seen as VERY GOOD.
limpid sage
okay then every single DK i've played with is absolute garbage
fotm moment
tribal blade
The sublety sample size
oh yeah nobody plays sub unless it's the absolute best spec in the game
short radish
oh yeah nobody plays sub unless it's the absolute best spec in the game
or WW
limpid sage
meanwhile feral
fossil forge
Feels pretty good rn though
limpid sage
never getting played even if it's the best
oblique burrow
Hi, does someone have experience on soulhunter mythic ?
keen dome
I always invite WW monks if I see 'em. Yet to be dissapointed.
short radish
i'd invite a sub rogue if any applied to my keys
astral compass
imposter
short radish
fossil forge
Hi, does someone have experience on soulhunter mythic ?
wazzap bossman
keen dome
i'd invite a sub rogue if any applied to my keys
🫡
oblique burrow
idk if my tanks are doing a good job on it
and i feel like i cant cleave bc of that
fossil forge
Melees are in the trenches on soulhunters
hazy breach
You should be able to hit 2 most of the time, but they do jump around a lot
oblique burrow
i'll send one replay so you can judge for yourself
karmic harbor
have 2 rogues in your guild and ask to be benched is my soul hunters advice
tribal blade
i heard there's some tank tech where they move the bosses quickly and you don't need to sit in the bladedance
fossil forge
My rl had the audacity to ask me to swap to outlaw for soulhunters
oblique burrow
have 2 rogues in your guild and ask to be benched is my soul hunters advice
i'm alone tho
fossil forge
oblique burrow
My rl had the audacity to ask me to swap to outlaw for soulhunters
SAME
fossil forge
We killed it with 7 melees
oblique burrow
bc "its better" while i need to do one tank soak each time
oblique burrow
so am i delusionnal or are they really too slow?
limpid sage
why do people hate soul hunters so much in here
I have only progged for an hour or so
fossil forge
so am i delusionnal or are they really too slow?
Sorry boss im in class
There is lots of running around
fallow nimbus
I have only progged for an hour or so
Do you have soul collecting duty?
fossil forge
why do people hate soul hunters so much in here
Its hell for melees lowk
short radish
we're melee. we should always be on soul collecting duty
idk though soul hunters is kinda chill
you just stick on the target that voidsteps away
fossil forge
saladbar on the otherhand
short radish
and play on 10fps
fossil forge
vale pine
i don't like soul hunters
short radish
oh same but i just hate any cleave council fight
vale pine
and play on 10fps
haha true
fallow nimbus
Just spawn 1 soul near ranges and wait for them to pick it 
short aurora
i heard there's some tank tech where they move the bosses quickly and you don't ...
Ye you hug adarus's ass
fallow nimbus
I have 141
limpid sage
Do you have soul collecting duty?
no we're just freestyling it
plush roost
this shti do be crankin
short radish
to PV x2 finality
what the fuck
fossil forge
send talent build?
plush roost
tribal blade
this shti do be crankin
nice! i need to check it out
plush roost
short radish
plush roost
db i jsut did
limpid sage
and play on 10fps
this is the only real issue I have on the boss
already a laptop gamer suffering from severe slideshow
vale pine
wow has bad performance for certain reasons:
- Blizz updated their anti cheat to be very wasteful with compute
- Elvui, plater, weakauras
- Liquid weakaura pack
tribal blade
you would think inev would be much better in DB
plush roost
Elvui pushed an update recently
tribal blade
i might check it out, sounds fun
limpid sage
wow has bad performance for certain reasons:
- Blizz updated their anti cheat to...
what things in plater are taxing?
short radish
you would think inev would be much better in DB
yeah but playing without inev feels so ass
plush roost
itd be better if coup worked properly
tribal blade
yeah but playing without inev feels so ass
it does yeah
vale pine
what things in plater are taxing?
plater just has too many features and is not developed with performance first
vale pine
if you want a comparison
tribal blade
you have that moment in TFD dance when symbols drops
vale pine
download a cpu profiler
then profile plater
after that download nameplatekai
and profile that instead of plater
limpid sage
is it easy to customize?
vale pine
compare your findings and you will see plater using a multiple of the cpu while offering similar features
tribal blade
Yeha it just makes your powders do big dam
big ruptures too i imagine
pearl swan
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
fossil forge
Changing your dps refresh thingy makes fps go boom
short radish
oh yeah i defs cant swap off plater for m+
but i cant think oif many reasons to need plater for raid
...
probably
vale pine
every streamer uses it and has their custom scripts for it, something you usually can't replace
north schooner
"similar features" is a bit misleading no? plater has full scripting support. Maybe out of the box they are similar
vale pine
its just we as a community or players
developed a certain problem space on our own
e.g. the solution to performance issues on plater is
to have a 2nd addon for plater that dissables the addon on certain mobs/adds
its similar to how we use weakauras for everything
even tho its a lot less efficient than boss mods
but its perfectly accaptable if we have strong enough cpu's to eat that up
e.g. just using elvui + weakauras vs. a optimized setup
can be the diffrence between 60 and 47 fps on a good gaming laptop
fossil forge
I turn off everything i can for raid
vale pine
just to be clear, if you have playable fps and your setup works. There is no reason to optimize
my point is just that its very common to trade performance for comfort
brisk onyx
why wm suddenly ahead of tfd so much, and sim dps also decreased? I am sure that when I simulated yesterday, it was around 5m. Is there something wrong with the lasted apl?
vale pine
there was no apl change, so sim plays the same
upbeat inlet
Hey guys quick question I'm beginning sub mostly for the raid. And I think I got the rotation but when I train I cannot get above 6M on a dummy during the burst window. From what I saw in logs of ST fights it should be like double that. So I don't understand what I could do wrong that could explain that much gap. I have good stat from what I see
lilac stag
I’m not sure anyone’s cpu is happy with current wow
lilac stag
Hey guys quick question I'm beginning sub mostly for the raid. And I think I got...
You have no raid buffs. Sim target dummy dps and compare
vagrant fulcrum
why wm suddenly ahead of tfd so much, and sim dps also decreased? I am sure that...
are you the wm messiah?
north schooner
if blizzard's damage meter turns out to be sufficient it will save some cpu just by virtue of being server-side
fossil forge
I’m not sure anyone’s cpu is happy with current wow
It wqs disaster b4 new pc
Its a semi disaster after new pc
brisk onyx
idk flag now has unusual durations, and cb sectech can be used at odd times.
flag buff should have worn off in 25 seconds, but it lasted until 35 seconds.
lilac stag
just run the sim again and see what it does
steep raven
Anyone elses character sims solid 150-200k less without any changes?
karmic harbor
@brisk onyx You're the 2nd person today who has come in and said they sim significantly lower
brisk onyx
Anyone elses character sims solid 150-200k less without any changes?
This is what I'm talking about now
karmic harbor
so something might be up
lofty lance
im simming lower too
alpine wraith
the rupturer
quiet zenith
brisk onyx
<@205658684481732609> You're the 2nd person today who has come in and said they ...
idk i am a rupture king now
lilac stag
guess what sub rogue nerfs getting announced with NA reset. Raidbot just knows already.
brisk onyx
karmic harbor
orchid lily
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.
karmic harbor
ah his 2nd sim is also a rupturer
brisk onyx
haha
lilac stag
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aq9hnXLQiNFZudKhbyWQbS
Try running it as weekly
brisk onyx
ok i can go to bed
steep raven
Try running it as weekly
Tried all 3, same result
plush roost
big ruptures too i imagine
raw dust
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.
plush roost
big ruptures too i imagine
arakara
karmic harbor
@vale pine we hebben en serieus probleem
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> we hebben en serieus probleem
whats the problem?
tribal blade
those are some beefy coups too it looks like
karmic harbor
whats the problem?
https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1417446521670078546 raidbots sims are doing this and not using cb in opener
lilac stag
Is this possible soul hunters secret build tech too? 
north schooner
also flag seems to last 24+12 in that sim instead of 12+12
karmic harbor
seems to have started yesterday or before that
lilac stag
We no longer press evicerate
vale pine
https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1417446521...
can you link the sim
karmic harbor
can you link the sim
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9nHvx5fjLN1V8yYoJcaqWz
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aq9hnXLQiNFZudKhbyWQbS
vale pine
hmm
lilac stag
I figured out the sim problem…. Raidbots played Fatebound assa then tried to play Sub.
pearl swan
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
acoustic matrix
How do you guys survive the bl pull after first pull on hoa ?
Cloak doesn't remove the slow and I can't get out of the zone
Shadowstep healer I guess ?
red lion
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
north schooner
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/046b8635fa726a7123acf976b299df83ad118186 might be the culprit?
for the flag duration issue
north schooner
your first sim also has 36s flag
karmic harbor
ye flag is lasting too long in the 1st one
and 2nd one
but it isnt ruptureing at least
north schooner
I couldn't find any other sus commit other than the one I linked
karmic harbor
cb also is in the wrong place
north schooner
unless the bug was introduced more than a couple days ago
karmic harbor
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8QAKvkiAvCwuXm9ngmaAwa
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9nHvx5fjLN1V8yYoJcaqWz
people are losing like 300k dps
top sim is 4 days ago
north schooner
losing dps with 12s extra flag 
vale pine
oh interessting
vale pine
ye, seems like something broke
brisk onyx
with 2 supercharged
scarlet void
hello, anyone can post his Shortcut for his Rogue Sub ?
regal quarry
!wa
wicked joltBOT
alpine wraith
you mean binds?
scarlet void
yeah
vale pine
i use these and the f keys
raven sage
Guys how much frac trinket needed for sub rogue in m+? I realy feel like im doing low damage :(((
alpine wraith
interesting
limpid sage
alpine wraith
so a trinket usage thing got broken somewhow
vale pine
flagellation being longer is def. a problem
alpine wraith
you will not perform well if you dont have prism yes but if you do low dmg there must be other reasons too
raven sage
you will not perform well if you dont have prism yes but if you do low dmg there...
i mean im bursting so good doing rotation well and everything but overall damage isnt so good at the end of dungeons
lilac stag
youre likely not using CDs enough
limpid sage
flagellation being longer is def. a problem
I wonder if it's inflating our sims
or if it's just a visual issue
vale pine
thats actually not the problem
fossil forge
Is flag longer in game too or is it just sim
vale pine
prism takes a bit to stack up
limpid sage
thats actually not the problem
ya but it's 18 stacks and it didn't use it last sblades window
look
vale pine
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
limpid sage
it uses the prism and it doesn't get consumed
vale pine
the 20 stack buff stayys active during the 20 sec
karmic harbor
my liked songs spotify playlist
fossil forge
Grass is green typa reply
north schooner
weekly changes on mondays which means it runs on this commit https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commits/046b8635fa so that doesn't help given how recent these commits are
karmic harbor
das ist sehr gut
fossil forge
Sync your cds with drops for major dps increase
karmic harbor
im stalking your youtube now and we have a similiar taste in music, i just dont like techno stuff tbh
fossil forge
i have schizophrenia when it comes to music
Genres dont matter If i like it i save it
karmic harbor
yee im like that too
hazy breach
ya but it's 18 stacks and it didn't use it last sblades window
Wdym its literally using it
Its in your pic
fossil forge
HAHA
hazy breach
"Use item unyielding netherprism"
fossil forge
no shot
lost torrent
!gcd
ornate lake
Guys so if I macro like this
/Flag
/Dance
/Symbols
And
/Blades
/Trinket
/Pot
/Racial
/SecTech
And my opener is Flag macro-Rup-SS-blades macro, will I be inting? Or is it good enough?
My non CD dance has the usual Backstab after dance.
For my second SecTech and non empowered SecTech I just use the seperate keybind
astral compass
yes
tribal blade
Guys so if I macro like this
/Flag
/Dance
/Symbols
And
/Blades
/Trinket
/Pot...
the blades macro is fine
the flag one not so much
limpid sage
Wdym its literally using it
I worded it wrong
but I thought it used the trinket and somehow didn't consume the stacks
ornate lake
the flag one not so much
Why so
tribal blade
Why so <:garf:1320173032743899157>
wait i didn't actually read the whole thing
astral compass
you want to use rupture after flag
hazy breach
but I thought it used the trinket and somehow didn't consume the stacks
I think its just quicksim showing the buffs differently than ingame
ornate lake
you want to use rupture after flag
Yes it's SS from stealth followed by flag macro and rupture
limpid sage
I think its just quicksim showing the buffs differently than ingame
ya fuu cleared it up for me so I wouldn't spread more misinformation xd
hazy breach
Like in sims it says "Unyielding Netherprism (18)"
Whereas ingame its just the name without the stacks
limpid sage
ye exactly
astral compass
you want to waste a global in your dance window for rupture?
tribal blade
yeah not good to macro flag+dance+symbols together
hazy breach
But yeah something bricked with some buffs reseting on the backend, thats why flagellation and cold blood is weird
astral compass
thats not that smart 😄
hazy breach
Probably recommending to use nightly/weekly for now
tribal blade
ngl i'm a bit tired and trying to decipher all that my brain no worky right now haha
limpid sage
imma try nightly, because weekly seems to be scuffed for me
tribal blade
we haven't cast rupture in dance in a long time, if you do that it won't be good
astral compass
You want to get the most out of your dmg window
tribal blade
you basically kill a gcd in dance in cds and also you lose out on 1 finisher of ramping flag
north schooner
nightly won't be much different
astral compass
outside of your cds you're a wet noodle
north schooner
there have only been some DK changes between last weekly and nightly
astral compass
so basically you want to only shadwostrike and evis / coup
tribal blade
the good news is the blades macro is fine, i'm using that right now too
tribal blade
is the robot misbehaving
tribal blade
damn that sucks
north schooner
the robot is very naughty yes
north schooner
they fixed the typo on ptr 
vale pine
Ok yeah even weekly has the griefed flag thing
yep
runic trail
OK TOMORROW ON RESET I GET EITHER FORGE OR PRISM IN VAULT
I get a third antenna for sure
tribal blade
I get a third antenna for sure
damn that's rough
ornate lake
you want to waste a global in your dance window for rupture?
Oh I see now
runic trail
damn that's rough
Nah I didn't take any of the first 2
astral compass
Oh I see now
yeah, this spec is all about maxing out the damge in your dance windows
tribal blade
honestly i might be leaning on wanted forge over prism in vault because i don't have forge yet
karmic harbor
if i dont get forge tomorrow its a kms angle
tribal blade
but beggars can't be choosers
i'm also in the great position of not having won a single piece of myth track gear from raid yet
i have lost every single roll
hollow spear
I'll probably get a firm handshake from my vault
tribal blade
my guild's loot system is great
ornate lake
yeah, this spec is all about maxing out the damge in your dance windows
But what about backstab in dance to generate 1 DM stack and consume premed?
hollow spear
Maybe a socket if I'm a good boy
hazy breach
Atleast y'all have vaults 
tribal blade
Why is it a /roll system?
they're trying to placate to the most people i think
bright oxide
in m+ are we using black powder if there is a prio target?
tribal blade
because no matter what they do people get pissy about gear
astral compass
But what about backstab in dance to generate 1 DM stack and consume premed?
the first builder is 100% full combo points. so you want it to be backstab
tribal blade
that way it's not showing favoritism
hollow spear
Just marry your guild leader
tribal blade
they do loot council on who does get to roll though
hollow spear
Problem solved
karmic harbor
these are the items ive gotten from mythic 💀
hazy breach
But what about backstab in dance to generate 1 DM stack and consume premed?
Yes but its not a big deal so no need to get hungup on that, you can focus on that later when youve learned the basics
tribal blade
these are the items ive gotten from mythic 💀
only myth track items i have so far are from vault 🙂
and hardmode
tribal blade
i'm literally gearing like a M+ pusher right now
karmic harbor
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
karmic harbor
a hunter got mythic prism over me i swear im not mad
tribal blade
trying to get around it with a bunch of macros kills your dps
tribal blade
a hunter got mythic prism over me i swear im not mad
LOL same thing happened to me
here's our last raid night of prog on hunters
guess who got prism over me
(that's deaths btw)
ornate lake
Yes but its not a big deal so no need to get hungup on that, you can focus on th...
I'm half way to resi 15s and I have been wasting 1 global in dance on rupture till now
kindred compass
hello fellas. Im not playing sub since shadowlands. I am good at assassination but I forgot how to play sub. I want to master again. But Im a bit confused about using shuriken or shadowstrike & black powder or evis on 6+ targets. Can you help me about that please
hazy breach
!aoe
wicked joltBOT
General Gist of the Aoe rotation
- At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
- At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
- Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
karmic harbor
guess who got prism over me
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/it-is-what-it-is-it-is-eet-eet-iz-iz-gif-17896182
bruh our literal most floor pov player on that fight has the only myth prism in our raid
kindred compass
@wicked jolt it was super fast ! Thank you sir
tribal blade
kms
lilac stag
here's our last raid night of prog on hunters
Looks like you need a rogue buddy
lilac stag
I need to get the warrior over 710. Getting pug invites at 706 is shiet.
kindred compass
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
fossil forge
@tribal blade manifesting rhis for u bro
ornate lake
Our HC raidlogger was the first one to get BOTH salahdar dagger and prism on a single run.
Gods are indeed cruel
tribal blade
<@146180393941336064> manifesting rhis for u bro
that would be hot
kindred compass
Idk when unseen blade proc comes
lilac stag
bruh our literal most floor pov player on that fight has the only myth prism in ...
speaking of shitting on hunters. 711 ilvl on the BM
fossil forge
I wonder what ilvl i would be If i wasnt behind in crests
lilac stag
what do you consider behind? warrior gearing started sat. 706 with 150 gilded in bank