subtlety

[lilac pendant]

i picked deathstalker for pvp what the deal with this hero talent or i can just play normally?

[warm marlin]

while also not having forge

[sick sand]

I got a Prism, dunno with what to pair it.

Got all trinks except Araz one

[warm marlin]

Double on use = more add damage if you need it, prism passive = more boss damage

take your pick

[sick sand]

Ty Ryldd

First night of prog tonight

[warm marlin]

good luck with the p1 bloodbath

[sick sand]

Who knows if we get to adds, ye that's what I'm saying

😄

[haughty mural]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[vagrant fulcrum]

does feint work on starkillers

[vale pine]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[vale pine]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[vagrant fulcrum]

ty fuu

[hollow spear]

Is the premed bug new? Not sure I've ever heard of it

[vagrant fulcrum]

wtf we're fucking fake on araz

no info, meh

[alpine wraith]

it is not a super bug

you just cant proc shadowcraft while premed is up

so if you dance sod secret

it wont refund

why? who knows

[vagrant fulcrum]

lowkey

it might be slightly beneficial

[warm marlin]

Not new but it wasn’t well understood until recently

[vagrant fulcrum]

makes it easier to hold refund for coup

[warm marlin]

I just thought it was randomly bugged sometimes

but nop is def premed

[shadow lance]

!premed

I tried kekw

[hollow spear]

Interesting, it probably happened to me, but I am not sure I remember

[vale pine]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[warm marlin]

can thank nutwzrd for figuring it out

[vale pine]

whats the bug exactly?

[hazy breach]

You cant get refunds during premed

[lilac stag]

Yeah it’s very chill.

[vale pine]

you can't proc premed at all

hmm

[hazy breach]

We thought it was just after stance shifts

But premed makes more sense

[lilac stag]

Kinda rather be on warrior over rogue right now.

[vale pine]

yikes

to be fair, warrior is quite good now

[lilac stag]

I’m sitting on 100 crests and 225k over rogue st sim and 7 ilvl lower

[vale pine]

i mean that makes a lot of sense

subtlety is within one of the worse pure st specs

[lilac stag]

ahead of my assa sim I think as well

Just kinda crazy.

[stray oyster]

Does anyone macro sod and sd for mythic plus?

Just a curiosity question

[vale pine]

i have symbols on its own bind

[stray oyster]

What do you bind symbols too?

[steel jolt]

F

[elder pebble]

3

[stray oyster]

I’m switching over from sin and outlaw and binding sod on keys makes life easier

Sod and sd

[karmic harbor]

3

[vale pine]

^

(the button, not the message above it)

[stray oyster]

But your sod is not macro

To anything?

[vale pine]

tho it rly depends on your keyboard

[shadow lance]

² for me

The consol key

[stray oyster]

That’s my sprint key , I’m just trying to see if there is a time you can macro sd and sod

[vale pine]

because, basically

these are the keys i use with shift as the only modifier

(also f keys, but oyu don't see them on the picture)

my keyboard is fairly compact

so i don't need super long fingers

i have a mechanical keyboard too, but i am not using it much now because its too loud (my girlfriend complained)

[slate lantern]

get some quieter switches!

[vale pine]

they are already quite

[civic pagoda]

Can Somebody explain why some Play without CB und with Tea in m+?
Im Just wondering because my Sims say i would lose 120k dps

[vale pine]

i just got a cheap low profile keyboard

and there is no noise

i can make a picture tomorrow with hand for scale

[slate lantern]

cb = slightly more st, tea = slightly more aoe

sometimes sims too short to reflect accurate value over a whole key for those types of decisions

[civic pagoda]

Aight thank you

[hollow spear]

I got a nuphy kick 75, super quiet

[vale pine]

a keyboard for me needs to fulfill 2 things

#1 it needs to be reasonably priced

#2 the layout needs to be decent so its easy to write on
bonus if its silent

i could do a super silent custom setup and mod it to be silent

but thats not cheap, and requires a lot of manual work

[versed swift]

Wait real? I was under the impression it's the other way around

[vale pine]

compared, its easy to get a ~20€ low profile and just use that

[versed swift]

Cb was better st
Tea was aoe

[slate lantern]

oh i messed up

my b

[vale pine]

cb is better single target yes

tea offers a bit of consistency as the 200 energy and 100 energy push makes tfd windows easier playable

bottom line, both are close tho and you rly can pick whatever you like more

[warm spindle]

Do we spread rupture on every mobs in a big pack in m+ ?

[hollow spear]

Outside of cooldowns

And don't hold cooldowns to spread

[vale pine]

you kidna do yes

you spread rupture while the tank is gathering

then after cooldowns if mobs still have a decent amount of hp

[hollow spear]

Imo it also depends on the key level

[warm spindle]

once it's packed i'll start burst even if it's not applied to all monsters ?

[vale pine]

if you do a like 8 or 10

ye, just blast

[hollow spear]

By the time you've spread rupture on all mobs in a weekly key, they're at 60%

[vale pine]

if you do 12, 14 or higher. Probably need to rupture quite a bit more (also depends on your setup)

[warm spindle]

alright thanks for the explanations 🙂

[vagrant fulcrum]

does cloak work on nexus p1 ghosts

[hazy breach]

no

[vagrant fulcrum]

ty for info

[coarse hound]

Noted difference in guides suggesting The Rotten versus your guide taking finality. Rotten seems to sim better for me at the moment. Am I missing something important?

[vale pine]

rotten becomes worse with better gear

but its not that far behind

and becuase its gear dependent, its always best to sim

[coarse hound]

I see, thanks.

[limber folio]

we are so ready to wipe for the next 2 hours

[scarlet void]

Hello, I don't understand the Wowhead cycle. In parts 3 and 4, should I start from the top or the bottom?

[vale pine]

you start from top

but its all the same gcd

the spell above are all off gcd

so you potion/dance/symbols and then backstab

blades + trinket then secret

[warm marlin]

I need to understand why you are doing this

That 9 hour raid day looked like suffering

[limber folio]

https://tenor.com/view/kill-gif-25630068

[fringe lava]

got a 96 on M forgeweaver even though i was immune soak and we are doing no knockback strat

took some focus stepping cheese and scaring the shit out of the raid leader tho

[potent relic]

when i focus step someone in my raid to soak it always feels so scary

[mint swift]

[lethal lark]

If you spread rupture on the gather, do you still use it after flag when you go into the opener sequence?

[olive remnant]

if the mob u open on doesnt have rupture yet

[olive remnant]

otherwise just bp or evis

[vale pine]

depends on the pull

[wary plover]

Does Droptimizer take on account double on use prism and forge while simming?

I dont have them

[vale pine]

use top gear instead

the pinned text file in #tc-research can be used to add all seasonal gear

[wary plover]

Thanks

[karmic harbor]

First night?

[limber folio]

no

[fringe lava]

doing so though made me realize which ranged player was consistent and which isn't

[hollow spear]

9 hour raid day?

[west tide]

1 day guild 8 hr raid day imagine

[fleet ermine]

!log

[vale pine]

is that prefered over 2 days 5-6h (combined)?

[west tide]

hell noo

imagine picking the day u locked to 8hrs

and then u have to givr at least 1 hr break for eating lmfaooo

[scarlet void]

thx 🙂

[vale pine]

no problem, if you have any other questions, let me know

[warm marlin]

Mr uberscot raided for almost 9 hours yesterday

Truly soul shattering

[vale pine]

tbh i have high respect for anyone who plays the game 24/7

i did like somewhere between 16-18 keys this week

and halfway through was already enough

now there are like "casual" raiders/players who do 30-40 keys every week

[errant field]

Hi the cold blood and secret teq marcro; spell not found?!

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[limber folio]

reload

or no relogg

forgot

[vale pine]

reload does not work, you can try work around by switching fatebound, changingt alents, switching back and hope it works

but relogging is faster

[errant field]

THANKS

[vale pine]

no problem, it is a very common bug sadly

[errant field]

was shamed inside a guild raid lol

[fallow ginkgo]

is vers flask worth it as sub or do i just take chaos

[vale pine]

just take chaos

[tender kettle]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

vers is fine too if its cheaper

[zealous basin]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[tender kettle]

Is it optimal to be holding Coup for a Full opener/shadow dance in M+, or just using them as they come for CD reduction? Or should I just more plan to go into burst with 2+ Unseen blade stacks

[vale pine]

you can prepear for a pull

but not every time

[tender kettle]

So if I hit 4 stacks and a dance window is <20s, I shouldnt stress about holding it

[vale pine]

if a pack is about to die

and you go intoa big pull

you might want to make sure you have cooldowns and high sht stacks

subtlety is all about cooldown stacking

[tender kettle]

Sweet. But during a pack thats like 50% dead, just blast them as they come, or should I put more thought into them ?

[fallow ginkgo]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[little scaffold]

depends on how long the pack will take and what youre pulling after
if the pack will still live your entire set of cds, its probably better to send and not sit on them

[honest basin]

Ye can't really go by HP % in m+ cuz it's all relative so you need to get a grasp on how fast certain packs die depending on how your comp is

[tender kettle]

Yeah, my bad the % was just more of an example that stuff was going to live long enough. Was just more wondering if I should wait on a Double Coup proc to put into a shadowdance (assuming the dance window is under 20s) assuming the full CD would be used. Or just send the Coup raw and just keep going with Eviserates during the dance

[honest basin]

I find that I do best in keys when I just kinda play based on vibes

I send CDs when it feels like it should get value and generally it works out.

[honest basin]

You basically just don't want to be sitting afk for too long in m+. So like yes it's better to coup during dance but if your next dance charge isn't for another 20s and there's stuff in front of you to hit that isn't about to die in 5 seconds then just send it

[timid furnace]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[honest basin]

The worst things you can do are get your CDs cut short, and make yourself irrelevant by afking too long to try and eke out value

In general, the time you want to be hard holding is before flag/blades, dance is always gonna do good damage whether you hold a coup or not

[obtuse shard]

No autumn for kings hunger feel so bad man

[honest basin]

OOF

Yeah I believe I'm going to be experiencing that

[karmic harbor]

What time does it start?

[honest basin]

In 2 guilds xD I don't think either one has a holy pally

[obtuse shard]

About 4:24 i think

[tender kettle]

Sweet, I was just kinda sending them without any thought and was wondering if I was putting myself into some bad habits. I'll see how it goes and by feel after. Appreciate the help.

[karmic harbor]

And lasts 30s?

[ancient bronze]

Can someone eli5 what should I do after an opener? I more or less grasped the idea of the opener sequence but don’t understand what to do next

[honest basin]

Yeah np. Like idk maybe it's different if you're pushing high, but generally in my guild keys, 12-15 or so, most of the time the best play is to just kinda send things as they come and worry about holding only for big cds

[ancient bronze]

Esp because I need to line up my CDs

[kind wasp]

Do we still use the delve belt until 710 belt? after the nerf

[tender kettle]

Im like around 14s atm. I definitely wasnt saving Coup for big cd's at any time so thanks for that, wasnt even doing that in raid 😅

[obtuse shard]

You need to sim, for me 707 belt is better

[honest basin]

Ye so general rule of thumb is you don't spend coup if you have ~ 20s left on flag, and you can stop casting finishers entirely ~10s out

[tender kettle]

Ahh yeah. I have seen the ~10s out dont use finishers for store combo points, but I havent seen much talking about saving coup ~20s out.

[honest basin]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[honest basin]

Huh I thought it said that

[kind wasp]

Damn, for me 704 belt is 100k behind on AoE

[tender kettle]

Yeah, might be a good add

[honest basin]

Idk that's what the smart people have said at one point, I am not a theorycrafter by any means so I just go by what the smart people who did the math say lmao

[tender kettle]

hahaha, ill give it a whirl and see how it goes, appreciate it

[honest basin]

It might say that in the wow head guide, not sure

Np

[vale pine]

whats the question

[honest basin]

You hold coup ~20s out from flag iirc yeah?

[vale pine]

you can hold coup up to 20 sec yes

[honest basin]

Tis what I thought but it wasn't in the command so I started doubting myself

[vale pine]

coup is def. one of the things with a shitton of optimizations around it ^^

you can also use coup on lower cp especially outside of dance

[honest basin]

It hits so hard, feels like there's a lot of unintuitive stuff you can do to maximize damage with it

[vale pine]

because coup counts as higher cp finisher

and the damage is fairly irrelevant

[tender kettle]

Thats why I felt I was doing something wrong. Felt so illegal sending it raw haha

[vale pine]

it gets better, but everything can be explained

[honest basin]

True

[vale pine]

(gets better then more you play)

the main concept is the most important to understand

[honest basin]

Indeed it does, there's a reason I've stuck more or less strictly to sub since I started maining rogue in aberrus :3

[vale pine]

so planing for your 90 sec cooldowns

and after that it just comes down to handle excess casts between them

without making your 90 secs not have dance/symbols

[honest basin]

I always love that feeling when God decides to love you for a pull and you squeeze out a bonus dance because all your UBs double proc

[steep loom]

Fam i need some help.
I cannot proc CB with this macro anymore, did blizzard change anything?

#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[vale pine]

need to relog

[steep loom]

Thanks fuu

[honest basin]

Or you get 3 coup in opener

[vale pine]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[steep loom]

The real savior @vale pine ❤️

[vale pine]

if you can, disoriented strikes is a good way to have coup more reliable in the opener

its just not reliably doable

[honest basin]

Yeah, I've been trying to send a sectech as we're wiping to maximize that

[vale pine]

same

[warm marlin]

gotta save that cloak to get it off

[honest basin]

It's very cringe when we wipe during my CDs 😩 like bro I wasn't done with all this DAMAGE

[warm marlin]

maybe a spicy healthpot

[honest basin]

I definitely did that a couple times during soul hunters prog lmao

[quick plume]

perhaps all of the !commands should be compiled somewhere so people can answer their own questions

[honest basin]

Hasn't had to happen during nexus king yet

But we've only had like 2~ hours or so on it so

[scenic plover]

if i have coup ready but only get low cp after using storm, do i just storm again until 6cp?

[honest basin]

You should never storm between coups except if it's going to put you at 6+ or during shadow blades

[iron plover]

Does this work before putting in an m+ keystone too?

I’ve noticed sometimes I get 3 stacks of UB in my m+ opener and need to wait for my 2nd sectech to get my coups and that tanks my dps

[nimble ether]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[scenic plover]

but wouldnt backstep always be wasted then?

i also have cases where i press dispatch too fast and then have 0 cp before first coup , wouldnt i also storm there?

[vale pine]

should reset when the key is started, but i haven't tested

what you can do in keys

is press symbols once the key starts

as you usually get the cd back before or shortly after pulling the first pack

works rly well in prio, arakara, floodgate and echo dome

[zinc venture]

For damage amp phases, like in forge, are there any steps in the opener you would want to time a few seconds before the actual amp starts so your real damaging abilities are hitting at the beginning of the amp? Like your flag - rupture for example?

[vale pine]

you can, depending on the damage amp phase build up flag stacks before

but its super situational, because many of the damage amps last long enough to not benefit from specific optimizations like this

[zinc venture]

Makes sense, thank you!

[honest basin]

I've found that just starting my CD sequence at ~5 seconds before the about actually happens has netted me the most damage personally

Other people may have looked into/optimized more tho

[vale pine]

you can look at moment

https://www.lorrgs.io/

this website

it offers a nice way to look at cooldowns on specific fights from the top logs

[fringe lava]

honestly i slam flag 5-6 seconds before amp starts on that fight and i do about 650M on the burn

[empty plume]

araz amp is... 12 seconds iirc

so you're ok to begin the burst beforehand and have higher flag stacks during

[fringe lava]

heres the burn

on 2nd amp without a fullstack prism i only do 605M tho

[opaque valve]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[grand tapir]

are you all swapping finality for the rotten in high keys?

[split stirrup]

is using shadow blades right after pressing your first sec tec (before the next global) still a thing or do you have to use it before/at the same time now?

[slate lantern]

They fixed it so you should press it before, not a huge deal tho

[shadow lance]

It's preference gameplay and depends your stats

More crit you got, more finality is good

[quaint lodge]

whats happening here

why are people skipping an entire cooldown

[open vortex]

it's just feely craft for me but i only play rotten+cb in like streets and db

and everywhere else i just play finality + tea

[karmic harbor]

so u have damage for amp

[quaint lodge]

soulbinder has an amp?

\

[karmic harbor]

sry my brain is mush

[open vortex]

its so that cds line up for add spawns

[karmic harbor]

its when all the adds spawn

[quaint lodge]

Thats sorta wild that we can skip an entire cooldown sequence to pad and win lmfoa

[scenic plover]

does colorblind mode help for the spirits on nexus king?

[wheat crypt]

OH man sub feel good on araz

im having fun in prog and tanks are suffering

[hazy breach]

[sullen hare]

Gratz

[hazy breach]

Worst fucking pull imaginable we pulled when 90s wasnt ready

But who cares

[sullen hare]

Our like are always scuffed for me too:(

[lilac stag]

GZ @hazy breach

[haughty rose]

anyone knows if dungeon slice sim consideres downtime too? like i have 5% miss according to wcl but how much of the uptime is actually used in sim compared to real game? i can't help but think that the sim is not telling the whole truth

[haughty rose]

on astral antenna

[alpine wraith]

POG

[grand tapir]

so like under 25% then rotten wins out - or i guess just sim it 🙂

[shadow lance]

Just sim mate

[grand tapir]

the rotten it is - thx

[dull harness]

Hey guys quick question for a newbie in multi-target when you are outside of dance / symbol do you cast secret tech and do you cast some backstab to proc unseen blade ? If so do you as well cast coup de grace or keep it for next dance

[prime coral]

is there a nice side or somth for myth raid boss sub reminder for the CD usage like for all/most bosses? for importing?

[dusk stone]

sims are telling me around 30-34% crit is optimal for keys myself

[grand tapir]

cool - I'm a sin main learning this so my stats are in no way optimal for this, just messing around in 12s 🙂

[karmic harbor]

mrt with kaze timers weak aura, import from https://lorrgs.io/ but it's gonna be fight dependent, length, phase change timings etc. will be different

[vale pine]

nicuu, congrats

how many pulls did it take?

[hazy breach]

178

[vale pine]

oh thats not too bad

[ebon oyster]

gz

[alpine wraith]

we are on saladbar

big p1

[vagrant sinew]

@hazy breach gratz

[queen kraken]

We just hit P3 on laserking

🙈

Also congrats eleem! Gj!

[granite kelp]

hi quick question. is it ever correct to shuriken storm during shadowdance? say in a scenario where shuriken storm will build max combo points and shadowstrike wont. or does the shadowstrike dmg make it best to just spam.

attempting to learn sub after always playing sin :D

[hazy breach]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

#2

[granite kelp]

ahh kk so outside of tier set buff just spam shadowstrike as builder?

[golden totem]

inside dance yea

[warm marlin]

absolute 🔥 from hm as usual

[cursive spear]

Anyone else having trouble getting into 15s I’m just stuck at 14 resil playing que sim for hours…

[wheat elk]

15 is rookie numbers

since 2 days ago im trying to get into psf and flood 17

they will get havoc and hunters over rogue everytime

[shadow lance]

Okay mister big pusher

But yes, it wal already the case 3 weeks ago

[dusk stone]

sub had competitive numbers and better survivability

sucks we have no util

[gaunt dagger]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

get rid of all haste if you can its really bad for sub

[wheat elk]

that is not the point, what i mean is that if you feel that at 15, if you up the numbers it will get even worse

[dusk stone]

sub actually has a bunch of page 1 dps rankings for over half the keys

yeah i'd assume you'd have to network and actually have a team above 15s for sub at least

[shadow lance]

Sure 😉

We all know that's what you meant

[dusk stone]

hunter is very strong if its played well

i lost to a bm hunter in gambit 14 earlier i dont think the diff will be as pronounced in higher keys though, stuff still have too little hp

[shadow lance]

BM got way more sustained dps

[dusk stone]

i dont think mm does though

just anecdotally

[shadow lance]

MM or bm?

I lost you

[dusk stone]

well both

you see banshers playing either bm or mm for diff keys

[shadow lance]

Yes, but mm is burstier

And BM got more sustained

[dusk stone]

i think compared to MM we are fine

[shadow lance]

But we were speaking about BM in you gambit 14

[dusk stone]

well hunter in general

hunter is somewhat becoming meta

[shadow lance]

And diff gonna go higher cuz they have sustained dps

[dusk stone]

bm is what is actually strong as much as im seeing so far

[acoustic matrix]

Nah MM is dominating rn

BM is super strong too with the buffs

[shadow lance]

Okay, forget about, you going into thousands direction and I'm too tired for this

[dusk stone]

mm is up there too though?

i see its numbers and it seems fine

[acoustic matrix]

MM is crazy good ye

[dusk stone]

nothing sub cant do though am i incorrect?

[acoustic matrix]

in terms of damage ? we can't compete

[shadow lance]

You can't compare bro

Not the same class

[acoustic matrix]

A good MM will outdps a good Sub any day

[shadow lance]

Not the same damages profile

[acoustic matrix]

Kinda the same tho

They have burst windows like us

and shit dps outside of it

With good procs they get to 50-60M DPS in pulls

[iron plover]

And that guarantees a UB proc? I thought the supercharge only guarantees crit and some dmg

[shadow lance]

Never seen a MM goe that high for now

[hollow spear]

We get 50-60M in pulls, that's not the point you think it is

[dusk stone]

12.5 in 18 vs 11.2 in 19 for the hunter vs sub

so idk

we seem fine

[warm depot]

i thought supercharge was just 2 extra cp on finishers

[dusk stone]

us being the 12.5

[acoustic matrix]

I've never seen a sub go that high

[hollow spear]

I did

[shadow lance]

I do

[hollow spear]

I even did it myself, and I'm not even that great at m+

[warm depot]

first pull of fg ive seen pretty high

[dusk stone]

yeah and you sacrifice a lot to do 60mil

[warm marlin]

bm is the best spec in the game

[acoustic matrix]

its dungeon dependent

[hollow spear]

Kinda hilarious how much they've buffed them

[shadow lance]

18 stacks + lust + potion, you hit 50-60 M

[acoustic matrix]

But yeah BM is giga strong

They were bad on the raid so they just straight buffed them

[shadow lance]

That's the point

[warm marlin]

they do insane prio while just absolutely pumping aoe

idk

[acoustic matrix]

Blizzard being clueless with balance tome 35

[serene notch]

Seems like the 13+ logs disagree with you

[dusk stone]

arent hunters much squishier

[shadow lance]

It is

[iron plover]

Ive done 40m without prism :))

[hollow spear]

Hunters are squishy

And basically as useless as we are

[warm depot]

binding is op!!!

bind > blind

[serene notch]

Seems like dps this season looks pretty competitive with obvious outliers like frost dk and frost mage on the other end

[acoustic matrix]

Well at least they have a BL lol

[dusk stone]

you see about a quarter of the highest of the keys being cleared with outlaw

because of its survivability i'd guess

[hazy knoll]

good damage profile when you don't neeed funnel

[warm depot]

isnt sub just as tanky as o/l

[shadow lance]

It is

[dusk stone]

not as much

but its close

[shadow lance]

I got 32% vers

[acoustic matrix]

sub is very tanky

[warm depot]

yeah when alch hits vers im at 32% dr too

[iron plover]

Especially since they took feint off gcd

When did they do that

[shadow lance]

Outlaw can spam evasion

[warm depot]

o right

they have way better cdr

[shadow lance]

And feint

[tidal marsh]

"sub just as tanky" while float like a butterfly exists

my team

[dusk stone]

outlaw has more vers and has good defensives as well

my sims are wanting me to run like 30-35% crit atm

[hazy knoll]

its most likely a damage profile difference not a defensive util different

rogue in general is a tanky spec

[shadow lance]

Rogue is tanky when u can.plan damages

[warm marlin]

outlaw is mainly tankier due to being able to spam evasion

sub is close though, especially since law doesnt have fade

[shadow lance]

Yes, faze helps too

[warm marlin]

EE good too

[acoustic matrix]

and the finisher heal + overheal shield

[iron plover]

Ok but what about our nonlethal poison

[shadow lance]

?

[acoustic matrix]

yeah that's actually not bad

3.5% DR for everyone is nice

[shadow lance]

Same as other rogues

[iron plover]

Oh outlaw has poisons too?

damn

[acoustic matrix]

ye all specs lol

[fossil forge]

slower casts much better

[shadow lance]

Yes...

[fossil forge]

depends on key

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah depends on key

[lilac stag]

[acoustic matrix]

Like HoA slower casts anyday

well now with nerfed casters maybe not

[shadow lance]

The strength of numbing is the as reduction

[fossil forge]

for gambit start and halls end i take the antihealing one

[hazy knoll]

hewwo

[fossil forge]

is there any other use for the antihealing poison

[shadow lance]

Nope

[fossil forge]

G_G

[hazy knoll]

its a pvp poison

[shadow lance]

Creepling is good on those 2 keys

[fossil forge]

im losing my mind pugging 17s

[winter ice]

Another video saying sub has funnel damage in raid..

[fossil forge]

queue simulator

[winter ice]

HoA on the health funnel mini boss before last boss

[acoustic matrix]

ye

once you get past 15 resi it's just a slog

[shadow lance]

^

[tidal marsh]

any other use

says one he already mentioned

my team

[fossil forge]

you are not assa u dont play key

[winter ice]

whoops

[acoustic matrix]

Nah even Assa doesn't get taken

DK Mage DH mostly

[fossil forge]

idk people always favor assa because of silence

[shadow lance]

Assa is just taken on Flood kekw

[acoustic matrix]

Maybe war if they want phys

[fossil forge]

but dk dh every key

[fast iron]

as sub is there a way to cheese last boss ara for 100% uptime?

shadowstepping to ally last second?

[fossil forge]

you can shadowstep

[shadow lance]

Why u want 100% uptime as sub?

[steel jolt]

you can cloak the vortex thing too

[fast iron]

so i stay until like 0.5 and then shadowstep?

[steel zinc]

step your dk

[fast iron]

i just wanna hit all the time?

[steel zinc]

focus step dk

[fossil forge]

stay until the sucking and step

[steel zinc]

thats what I do

[shadow lance]

Gain is minimal

[fossil forge]

u can cloak 1

[hazy knoll]

it starts a big suck at like 1.5

[iron plover]

Is 16 a big jump from 15s?

[fast iron]

it starts big suck at 1

not at 1.5

[acoustic matrix]

No but you don't get taken as much as rogue

[fossil forge]

i dont think anything changes expect casts instakill

[iron plover]

Ahh rough

[fossil forge]

(rogue tanks everything anyways)

[hazy knoll]

feint + vial is insane cd

[iron plover]

You can tank the vortex with cheat too

[acoustic matrix]

I mean we don't have more damage than other specs and have less util so no point taking us

[fossil forge]

elusiveness gang

[hazy knoll]

in keys is always about what you need from your dps specs

need funnel and don't have a dh or mage? assa is good

[fossil forge]

60m burst is unfortunately nothing compared to 80m from fdk and 100 from hunter

[iron plover]

Ya but I’m the better player

[fossil forge]

[acoustic matrix]

Those numbers are wild tho, I've never seen that high

[iron plover]

Sub rogue harder than dk thus bigger brain thus less likely to die to mechanics and to kick

[hazy knoll]

is it harder than dk

[iron plover]

wait until I pull out the forbidden shadow dance into cheap shot -> cheap shot -> cheap shot combo

[hazy knoll]

you only matter every 90s

[fossil forge]

i mean there are some cracked dks hidden between all the meta abusers

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah DK is definitely not as easy as people think

Like Obli does much more damage than your average DK

[fossil forge]

there even is some crackhead tech of canceling some buff to gain 20% dmg

[hazy knoll]

it's not difficult but you have short cds

so you do need to have hands most of the time

vs. doing tank damage unless you have cds like sub

[iron plover]

Yea I’d say so, I think for newer players who haven’t tried the class yes

[dusk stone]

idk

[fossil forge]

there is a big diffy between the average joe fdk and a sigma frost actually

[dusk stone]

sub isnt doing tank damage outside of cds for me

its fine

maybe if youre double on use or something

[iron plover]

We’re all pretty biased since we’ve been playing sub rogue for at least a few months I assume

[hazy knoll]

i mean sub's damage profile is all inside blades/flag

that's all

even in aoe

[iron plover]

So obviously like it’s hurr durr easy

[fossil forge]

sub has been poop for so long

[dusk stone]

nah it does way more outside of cds this patch

[fossil forge]

he feels very good now

[iron plover]

but have you tried teaching a new player sub

[hazy breach]

Its slightly less in aoe

[iron plover]

It’s ass

just make them go ass

[visual blaze]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[fossil forge]

hopefully they add double coup into hero talents right copium

[acoustic matrix]

If you can send Symbols Dance yes. If you need to wait for your next flag for like 20-30s then you do have tank damage

if not lower

[iron plover]

Isn’t that a skill issue and part of what makes sub hard

[fossil forge]

unfortunately the 25second window of not doing anything is unescapeable

[acoustic matrix]

yeah it's not skill issue

[fossil forge]

just give 4 symbol charges atp

[acoustic matrix]

you literally have to wait

[hazy knoll]

you can play sub decently well by simply pressing dance when you're at 1.8 charges and pressing symbols when you have 2.8 charges and not wasting them (outside of cds)

not close to optimal of course

[fossil forge]

never sit on cds

[acoustic matrix]

I mean as long as you don't waste cd you don't lose damage in theory

[fossil forge]

but follow the rules

[hazy knoll]

basically, just don't let them cap out

its not supr optimal but you'll do good enough i thats all you do

[fossil forge]

if you play enough youll be able to judge how much you can spend

[hazy knoll]

obviously you probably want to use a symbols + dance is possible for sectechs and such

[fossil forge]

its not bad to overspend sometimes

[acoustic matrix]

yeah

[fossil forge]

for example in gambit where rp

or etc

[acoustic matrix]

If pack will be dead by the time you get flag you can send symbols dance even if that means delaying your next flag

Actually happens pretty often in keys

[hazy knoll]

worst part is you do so much inside cds that in lower keys its hard to findwhen to use them

[fossil forge]

sub is not really for low keys

[hazy knoll]

nothing worse thansending on the big mob at the start of a pack only for it to die before your 2nd sectec

[fossil forge]

play tea boom issue fixed

[hazy knoll]

ew

[fossil forge]

its actually not even that bad i just wish it didnt autouse if u drop below 30 energy

[hazy knoll]

thats pretty hard to not do as sub

[fossil forge]

yea i play cb mostly

i play tea in floodgate though

[dusk stone]

double on use is slightly less in aoe? or am i miunderstanding. I thought it was moderately less for overall

[acoustic matrix]

That would be surprising, the vast majority of top damage logs in M+ are double on use

[hazy breach]

The amount of damage sub does in flag/blades is less on aoe than ST

[dusk stone]

ah

[fossil forge]

the double on use only must have on last 2 bosses

[shrewd lantern]

The biggest issue is most people sit on cds too long

and lose multiple uses

[hazy breach]

Definitely isnt

[shrewd lantern]

i call it boomkin brain

[dusk stone]

yeah the narrative around here has been that because of the loss of so much passive agi from double on use it was moderately worse or more

with better prio

[fossil forge]

isnt the only value of running the double on use so you can send 18 stacks into dmg amp

[shrewd lantern]

it likely will fall off with more gear

[hazy breach]

You can do that anyway

[shrewd lantern]

i dont see double on use lasting more aura buffs+turbo boost

later on

[hazy breach]

Double on-use does more damage to the second platform and p1 on dimmy

[dusk stone]

well no double on use gets better over time because stats mean less

[hazy breach]

Less on first platform and p3

[shrewd lantern]

wont you have less phases to send on

since fight is just shorter

[dusk stone]

but yeah you literally do less damage without at least one passive trinket

we already lose like 8k from netherprism

[hazy breach]

But idk we had the most cursed pull when we killed

[shrewd lantern]

tbh i think araz gets overhyped

because of how much its pre decay value

shows

[hazy breach]

But we had a 3% pull when i ended at 7.2m

[dusk stone]

people just dont read the passive trinket agi to be honest

[shrewd lantern]

me when people ask

why chest or helm vaults sim so high

because alot of agi?

[acoustic matrix]

Problem with passive trinket is it creates more variance

I have so many instances where it doesnt proc during my cds

[shrewd lantern]

just play soleah

no variance

[dusk stone]

which passive are you talking about

[shrewd lantern]

Probably antenna

[acoustic matrix]

I have Myth Pacemaker

[shrewd lantern]

pace isnt rng

....

[acoustic matrix]

Antenna you can game it a bit I hear

It's not rng but you can't control it either

[dusk stone]

with myth pacemaker you get 8k passive agi

the 3.3k is the only variance

[shrewd lantern]

i mean you cant control it

but you also know

when its gonna be up

the first 30s

of every minute

[fossil forge]

i think the orb lasts for 20 seconds

[acoustic matrix]

Which is exactly not 1min30 lol

[dusk stone]

well even with that it sims almost as well as antenna

[iron plover]

Ok but what if we never learned how to tell time…

[shrewd lantern]

yeah but point is

pace isnt really rng

[fossil forge]

so you can time it with cds if you are lucky with the spawns

[shrewd lantern]

it always proc on 1min intervals

antenna is big funny

sometimes i'll spawn 3 orbs when killing rando wq mob

[lilac stag]

Pace is just whatever post nerf. Change my mind.

[shrewd lantern]

not wrog

[dusk stone]

what nerf

[shrewd lantern]

every passive is just whatever

besides ant

[acoustic matrix]

It's my highest simming trinket

Sims more than the lily

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i mean what are the other passives even

soleah

and crystal

ig?

[acoustic matrix]

there's the delve mastery trinket

but it's heroic locked

[shrewd lantern]

crystal you can make a case is the most rng yeah

yeah im talking myth track

[fossil forge]

u mean the one that gives mastery

void something

[acoustic matrix]

yeah it's pretty good depending on your stats

[iron plover]

Mythic antennae locked behind mythic raid though

[fossil forge]

i have it on dh its pretty pog

[lilac stag]

I’d rather have cosmic hunt as the passive if not running 2x on use

[shrewd lantern]

oh yeah

that one exists too

i think the void crystal is, the only good delve trinket iirc

besides soulbreaker's sigil

[shrewd lantern]

mine is so cooked

gear gave me like 27k crit i should probs fix it

[acoustic matrix]

Might seem obvious but one thing I discovered today is you're griefing if you don't wait the end of your gcd before sending dance. Not sure why it's not more common advice

[warm marlin]

Very common mistake in log review

[acoustic matrix]

I posted many logs and was never told

[warm marlin]

[shrewd lantern]

the what

are people trying to hit dance mid global

of something else

[acoustic matrix]

I was sending my global and then immediately sending dance without waiting 1sec before

cause you mash buttons you know

[shrewd lantern]

Idk maybe i've played sub for too many years

that i got past that

[honest basin]

I don't even realize that I intentionally wait my global to press dance lol

2 years of muscle memory already too strong

[shrewd lantern]

longer for me atp

actually i forgot dance wasnt on global

whoopsie

[honest basin]

I never got to play rogue back in the day, I was the designated hunter for many many moons

[shrewd lantern]

dfa sub was peak

mashing dance waiting for your character to land

🤣

[hazy breach]

Honestly current sub is peak

[shrewd lantern]

yeah but coup delay

makes me cuss out a blizz dev

on the reg

[hazy breach]

Ye it is what it is

[coarse hound]

!MACRO

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hard trellis]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[flat marsh]

Been running all 3 specs for a month and I think in settling as subt this season

Just most versatile and don't have the weird downside other specs have

[lilac stag]

@keen dome you’ll be so proud of me. Pugged AOTC on Woyer

[wary plover]

!log

[native zodiac]

r1 dim

gg

@warm marlin thats what you got to beat

[hazy breach]

ggs

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[left ledge]

Let’s go back to DF s1

[warm marlin]

It’s joever

3% raid buff surely carries me

[graceful osprey]

I didn’t play in DF, what made sub rogue so good during DF? I am curious

[old lynx]

When do we black powder instead of evis? Is there a target count ?

[native zodiac]

honestly

i think it will be harder to parse with the dmg buff

unless your raid holds dmg giga long

we already held dmg in p1 for 20secs

and even on platforms

[hazy breach]

Just get buyers

[lucid jackal]

4

[woeful lance]

do we use the rotten? guide says no but archon seems to be saying ppl are running it

[warm depot]

you can use it to instantly fw everything after symbols

with a shuri storm

[woeful lance]

fw?

[warm depot]

find weakness

[left ledge]

Find weakness

For shadowed finishers

[native zodiac]

real

[hazy breach]

Also a tip to get good parses is to not accidently pull the boss when flag is still on 25s cd

[left ledge]

Ah

That’s a classic me move

I flag, we wipe

I hit ready

We pull

Oh, no flag

But the thing is I’m so autopilot

[native zodiac]

[hazy breach]

Yeah and obviously thats the kill pull

[left ledge]

I’d have popped blades

[native zodiac]

on dim eleem?

[left ledge]

And I just look at my weakauras

And

[hazy breach]

Instead of the pull before when i was at 7.2m like 20s before my 18 stack in p3

Yea

[left ledge]

[woeful lance]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[left ledge]

Dude it’s always

You’re gonna rank 1 by 1 mil fkin dps

[native zodiac]

gg

[left ledge]

Then you wipe

Then on the kill pull

You pulled with flag on cd, your tier set deactivated, you died twice in a row

[native zodiac]

dude i had p2 end of platforms 2 pulls with 7.3m dps

but we sadly didnt kill it on those pulls

[left ledge]

I’ve been doing so good in prog

I fucking FEAR the kill pull

I know it will come off my demise

[native zodiac]

i got extremly lucky on ours tbh aswell

[hazy breach]

I really wanted a good parse so people would believe me when i say you absolutely do not need double on-use for dimmy, but alas cant get a good one when you dont have flag on pull

Oh and also i forgot to pot because i got stunlocked

[native zodiac]

what was your timing with 1 on use

[hazy breach]

First platform and amp

[native zodiac]

just platform 1 , amp and p3?

yeah figured

[hazy breach]

But especially now that dps is gonna be so good that you wont get the 3min flag off in p3

[native zodiac]

i think dim will be a nightmare to parse tbh

after the dmg buffs come in etc

[hazy breach]

I dont see why you would double on-use

Except to padd on nullbinders twice ofc

[native zodiac]

p much what i did yeah

its honestly only pad

theres 1 use in p3

of araz everything else is useless as you dmg stop

lmao

[hazy breach]

If you dont get the 3 min blades of

Araz is legit useless in p3

[native zodiac]

yep

i had both mythic antenna and araz

but went araz to pad

[woeful lance]

shuriken storm and bp on 4+ targets? otherwise 3 below just backstab evis?

[hazy breach]

Pacemaker probably wouldve been insane for consistency

It lines up really well

Too bad they nerfed it

[native zodiac]

pace would be crazy on dim with the intermission and you have it perfectly for cds

[tidal beacon]

in the aoe rotation are you guaranteed to get to coup de grace during sb or is it rng?

[lilac stag]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[tidal beacon]

i seem to get it pulled off like 50% of the time

[inner flower]

what is the trick for preserving netherprism stacks as a key starts?

[hazy breach]

Dont think there is one

[woeful lance]

why shadowstriking in dance aoe instead of shuriken storm? does it guarantee more cp or something

or to get coup faster

[hazy breach]

Your entire hero talent and tier set is based on it

[woeful lance]

i see

[lilac stag]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[brisk creek]

in huge pulls on high keys in the beginning of the dungeon do i spread any ruptures before going into my go rotation or just the one on the main target

[median wraith]

yoyo guys anyone here who can answer to me real quick if nimble flurry works on the minibosses in ara kara ? or is there any bugged interactions like it were with sp in season 1

[median wraith]

u def spread especially when mobs arent gathered yet

[brisk creek]

ok so spread while gathering mobs and once fully clumped go?

[remote rapids]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[median wraith]

u flage go one or two more ruptures and then start ur dance window

or if every mob already has rupture go bp

[brisk creek]

ty ❤️

[brisk creek]

ty ty

[prisma acorn]

how would someone get 2 back to back unseen/escalating blade procs back to back?

it was .3s difference

oh i think i see my big difference

[tidal beacon]

how many rupture would you spread?

[brisk creek]

do i just never Black Powder in huge packs?

just evisc and coup?

i was use BP in huge packs

[slate lantern]

you use it at 4+ unless you have coup

[brisk creek]

oh ok

do i evisc inside dance window for dance mcabe stakcs

in that scenario

once

[plain void]

does bl even do anything for us? considering how shit haste is

[slate lantern]

no we are the worst dps gain of bl of all dps

[plain void]

so not worth sitting on cds to line up w bl right

is the only thing we really get just slightly more unseen blade resets

[slate lantern]

dont really think about danse stacks outside of the initial backstab optimization which is small in aoe

[slate lantern]

never

and some energy regen

[brisk creek]

ty

[plain void]

ight

thanks

[tribal blade]

nice, that's great insight

[surreal cedar]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[frank narwhal]

If I set Buff Tracking in Plater to Manual instead of Automatic, will that also apply to any buffs the target may have? Or is it just my debuffs? I'm getting a little tired of having to add new blacklist debuffs because of new trinkets or spells etc.

[fallen depot]

!plater

[short owl]

walk out when the key is put in and walk back in once the timer is done

[fallen depot]

what is the ! plates?

[short radish]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[short radish]

just use jundies or something

[slate lantern]

i love what comes up when you google jundies

thats why i use it

[fallen depot]

trying to use whispyrs plates but i forgot the command lmao

[short radish]

do it in #assassination

[fallen depot]

ty!

[red lion]

hey guys, i'm progressing nexus king and im doing weak dmg at subtlety when I use my cds, idk what i'm doing wrong. I feel that my coup the grace is too low..

[slate lantern]

send the log

[red lion]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/a:1KB4kXqAG6a3QdLW?fight=25

[slate lantern]

one thing is you prob want to be using the netherprism for the first cd window, then only lily until the amp phase

so that it builds to full stacks

[red lion]

okayy, but am I missing something in the rotation?

[short radish]

did you not cast flag on the adds platform?

you have a gcd missed here between shadowstrike and sectech

oh maybe its because your platform side isnt being logged

[red lion]

yeah, thats it

[raven rune]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[obtuse shard]

I think since you have coup ready when entering the phase, you should just melee until you have flag up to build sht stacks instead of sending double coup naked and then delay your flag

your 2nd coup during your cd was not in dance window

[hushed roost]

Does raidbots sim double on-use well for ST? I saw the disclaimer they have but it seems a bit lower than I expected

[lilac stag]

Stop using weekly

Use latest

[hushed roost]

ah

[lilac stag]

It sims fine. Subs ST is shit

[spring basin]

how much of a loss is it to just ignore using the backstab right after dance and use ss instead? I hate buttons lmao

[sullen hare]

It's minor but there's a macro for it

[spring basin]

Oh there is? Where it at?

[sullen hare]

One sec

[tepid trellis]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[spring basin]

ty

[sullen hare]

Yeah I was looking for the command haha thanks as always stealthi

[shrewd lantern]

mfw alpha is poop for me

[wheat sentinel]

Anyone perchance have a good plater mod for "fazed"?

[shrewd lantern]

and yes alpha is losing to a 707 db ring in this compare

[haughty mural]

Well db ring on its own is really really good

And you might have a good amount on crit already on your gear

[shrewd lantern]

pace yeah

but other necks rings are vers mast

[warm marlin]

im this close to equipping my goat eye of kezan and backstabbing for 6 and a half minutes straight to unleash the taza hm burst in p3

with how many times ive been told damage doesnt matter

[shrewd lantern]

i guess i send a ring for 13k if my vault is poop

[warm marlin]

(joking ofc mostly)

[wispy crystal]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[woeful lance]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[woeful lance]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[spiral marsh]

Learning sub so hard

My poor brain

That opener pmo

[woeful lance]

at first it was a lil confusing last night when learning it but you get the hang of it after the first few tries

[short radish]

it's hard and then it clicks

then its super comfy

because the opener is largly the same

[woeful lance]

i started by following the visual timeline pressing slowly and just did it faster everytime when the muscle memory clicks

[spiral marsh]

in top logs i see like flag evis into vanish strike rupture then dance symbols stuff
but in wowhead i see flag rupture into dance symbol backstab stuff

[spiral marsh]

so idek if there's a diff

[summer mica]

to get slice up early

[woeful lance]

thats actually tech holy

[spiral marsh]

yeah but idek which one is better 😭

im just stuck between the two

also waht happens if coup procs on opener like i already have escalating blade stacks

[warm marlin]

!cheese

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[warm marlin]

If you have disorienting strikes you can do the vanish opener

Otherwise not worth

[spiral marsh]

a bit more than 1%

alr let me read that fully

[glossy halo]

Geez, sub drives me insane. I really love this spec but i really struggle to execute it right.

[clever delta]

I see rogue already start to fall off on last two

Its such a shame sub being god spec is reserved only for first kills

[wispy crystal]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3Urcuod7HbpGzc7puzzAZr

why does raid bots tell me to use the exact same gem, and switch my enchants?

not sure how accurate this is for a 0.4% DPS increase. Should i just use what I got?

im running 4 different colored gems now

current enchants:
mastery on rings
councils / oathsworns on weapons

[glossy halo]

We finally killed Forgeweaver yesterday and my logs are shit again. Call was to use full CDs on 2nd pylons so i lost em on the damage amp, but this cant be it alone. Would someone be so kind and have a look at the logs? I know about a hicup and sometimes it was unlucky (at least i think it is, e.g. starting CDs than getting adds and have to run away from boss behind pools) but i think i have big mistakes in my general rotation and i need some help.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B3ypWw2mXFtYK8Nb?fight=24

Would appreciate it! 🙂

[vale pine]

it does not guarantee a ub proc, it just gives extra dps from supercharger

[grand tapir]

dumb question probably but is there a reason not to maco dance with symbol? it seems like i'm always casting them together

[vale pine]

the 2nd dance in your flagellation/blades

you probably won't have secret ready early

which means you often will delay the 2nd cast

[spring basin]

So is coup just sent no matter how many cps you have when out of sd?

[vale pine]

yes

all of our damage is in cooldowns, so thats perfectly fine and guarantees to not waste coup

[spring basin]

Also I'm having a hard time understanding when to not use symbols and dance outside of sb and flag

Is there a general rule to follow?

[shrewd lantern]

if you cds pylon you’re cooked

[vale pine]

thats because its one of the core things you need to think about

[grand tapir]

i see - the second cast of dance during shadow blades - got it

[vale pine]

doing nothing and only send cd's in 90 secs is easy

but managing multiple cooldowns with charges and cdr is not ^^

[shrewd lantern]

maybe fuu can answer better but psure if you dont have sb flag for amp or adds grouped you wont do well on araz

[vale pine]

tho i explained it recently, and this is a top level overview

any add fight you either want to use cd's on adds or damage amp phases

[wispy crystal]

Guys would you all switch gems / enchants and a neck piece for 0.4% DPS increase? 😭

[vale pine]

the best advise is to just look at what top logs are doing:
https://www.lorrgs.io/

[wheat sentinel]

On dimensius maybe

[iron plover]

Ah gotcha… then not sure why sometimes in my opener I only get 3 UB procs and need to wait for 2nd sec tech to get my coups going

[vale pine]

because it requires a bit of thinking, and helps understanding how the fight is layed out

[spring basin]

Ah, so that's why sub is so good rn. Your damage is so much in your cds that waiting for dam amp phases is very little loss, so much gain

[vale pine]

well yes but also

netherprism

it gives a shitton of agi even on lower rareties

and you can stack it up to 18 for burst

the trinket gives a lot of dynamic

and is one of the main reasons we are so good this tier

(while "soo good" still means being worse than most casters, dk and warior)

[tranquil sorrel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[wispy crystal]

I love this sentence 🤣🤣😭😭

It's happy, yet sad at the same time

[vale pine]

inherently, we are good on the last 2 fights, which is what matters

[wispy crystal]

That a fury warrior and a frost dk can zug their way to top single target and AOE with minimal effort 😂

[vale pine]

and we can pad well on adds

but if you break it down to a per boss base, you would not say "woah subtlety is insane"

But lets quickly visualize it

[wispy crystal]

Like someone told me in this discord. Compare with how you were before, and how you can improve.

Don't compare against other classes

But when I'm rank 10th with 3 warriors and 4 dks ahead on every fight except the last 2. It's a feels bad moment 😞

[shrewd lantern]

4 dks in a pug

[wispy crystal]

3 fury warrior, 4 dks, 1 hunter and 2 mages ahead of me on ST.

Guild heroic run. It's super sweaty as everyone is just trying to parse and not doing mechanics ✅

And the only guy below is the 703 ele shaman and assas rogue who wins the roll on heroic netherprism. (Sorry rant over)

[vale pine]

Breakdown of Subtlety based on WCL 90%tile

❌ Primus sentinel - 25/26 place on dps (~85% dps of best)
❌ Loomithar - 24/26 place on dps (~85% of best)
✅ Soulbinder - 2/26 place (Subtlety can pad very well on adds on the fight)
✅ Forgeweaver - 4/26 place (Subtlety can pad on adds and does well with damage amp)
❌ Soul Hunters - 17/26 place (~80% of best)
❌ Fractilus - 26/26 place (~85% dps of best)
✅ Nexus King - 7/26 (~85% of best, adds + vulnerability)
✅ Dimensius - 8/26 (~95% of best, adds + vulnerability)

[shrewd lantern]

weird comp

[vale pine]

so

if you tell a player he will do 15% less damage on 5/8 fights

that sounds a lot worse actually