subtlety

[shadow lance]

Sure

But if I'm at high sht stack after sectech, I could storm

[hazy breach]

Nado is good to use in that same scenario btw

Got the robot to go along with me on that one @tepid trellis

[shadow lance]

Cuz I'll get refund after first coup

[tepid trellis]

yes

as long as you only storm once per dance its fine

[shadow lance]

That's the only point that trigger me

This and the late refund

[languid moss]

do we have a weakaura to track prism stacks?

[hazy breach]

Was hoping the late refund was gonna get fixed by now, but alas no such luck

[tepid trellis]

im hoping for the .5

but ive got my doubts

they prolly neck deep in midnight shit

[shadow lance]

Nope but you can make it

[hazy breach]

Ye thats fair, but unless shadowcraft is getting removed/reworked its gonna continue to be an issue

[tepid trellis]

yup

[slate lantern]

Good practice to make your own for something like this, makes customizing future WA/understanding what's going on with them much easier!

[hazy breach]

And im kinda expecting the 4p to be one of the new trickster talents

But maybe im wrong

[tepid trellis]

could def see that

[north schooner]

if they do that, they better fix the 4 stack cap situation

[tepid trellis]

its pretty well recieved

they will never allow it to overcap

[shadow lance]

Bro

[misty hedge]

!stats

[tepid trellis]

they could put in a block for you to consume unseens while the buff is up tho

[misty hedge]

!stat

[tepid trellis]

bot is dead

[hazy breach]

Sub needs less things to prestack, not more

[misty hedge]

Uhm… is there a min haste requirement for sub?

[shadow lance]

Less as possible

[plush roost]

You can get your 14 stacks of sht refunded if u sod at 0cp effectively proccing it esrly

[hazy breach]

As close to 0 as possible

[slate lantern]

It's really weird how amazing it is for sub and how clanky it is for outlaw with the new ks

[tepid trellis]

if they allowed it overcap sub would just do degenerate af shit with it

[north schooner]

they don't have to make it overcap, they can just make the buff for the 2nd coup not be the same, and allow you to still stack UB in the 5s in between coups

[warm marlin]

The ideal cooldown usage of flag -> dance until flag 45s away -> pool

Mmmmm

Full shuriken storm building in st

For 45s

(depending on how they cap it)

[hazy breach]

We are already stacking sht, disorienting strikes, 4 coup stacks and supercharger before amps

We dont need it to be 8

[tepid trellis]

if it stays there will just be a blocker to proc unseen while the buff is up

[warm marlin]

If my raid rotation doesn’t prep me like taza hm I don’t want it

[hazy breach]

Meanwhile haha raging blow go brrr

[tepid trellis]

imo sub needs to be more easily accessible

and easier to understand

[vale pine]

we love to stack things

[tepid trellis]

fuu bot dead again

[vale pine]

+1

[plush roost]

Coup the storm

[warm marlin]

I will be sad when dance and symbols get merged

Even if it’s a good change

[hazy breach]

Flag can kinda fuck off though

[tepid trellis]

dont think dance and sod will merge

[hazy breach]

Much prefer blades

[tepid trellis]

i could see flag and blades

[vale pine]

nice, it did not even give me a crash log -.-

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

flag just being a node that smacks the mastery on blades

[plush roost]

I like flag cause u can get to 30 stacks in as the shield breaks in the rookery then dance on that dih

[tepid trellis]

-1 button

[iron plover]

Overall dps is normally lower on dawn breaker compared to other dungeons right?

[warm marlin]

I feel the problem with merging flag and blades is that it makes burst even faster for those who aren’t already preramping

[vale pine]

they could make cold blood passive

[hazy breach]

Blades should make all our damage shadow, so we get bigger numbers instead of an extra small number

[vale pine]

remove a lot of target conditions

[tepid trellis]

tru

hopefully they cook for midnight

[warm marlin]

crit value 📉

[hazy breach]

Theyll probably increase the value of ruptures to counteract that

Is my guess

[vale pine]

can just make it "your next 2 finishers after symbols or dance"

[lilac stag]

Ez fix. Turn flag into prism

[vale pine]

not a fan^^

[hazy breach]

Ye that would be pog, but im almost certain they wont

[warm marlin]

It’s not necessarily a balance problem, anyone good is already preramping so it would increase ease of use, but for tuning purposes sub would look even stronger in heroic week for ex

[lilac stag]

It would fit sooooo well

[hazy breach]

Hopefully they keep the spec similar, i find it insanely fun right now

[plush roost]

This is cool and all but how do we make ⚠️ Warning Signs ⚠️ the meta

[hazy breach]

Even though lots of stuff is undercooked

[karmic harbor]

is there a wa that tracks all this

[warm marlin]

true spec very fun

[vale pine]

+1

[tepid trellis]

yup just need the rough edges fixed

[hazy breach]

Stacking up all my juice just to explode for 15s then go have a drink

Peak

[tepid trellis]

i got called a cheater

[alpine wraith]

yea sub is cool if anything worked correctly

and even then

[tepid trellis]

in a dungeon yesterday

[plush roost]

I think they should make master of shadows baseline so i dont feel as bad pressing dance without symboms in aoe

[tepid trellis]

some dude thought i was hacking

[alpine wraith]

we have so much fun

ahaha

[tepid trellis]

when i bursted 68m

[alpine wraith]

they havent seen bms

brrr

[plush roost]

Big mama?

[hazy breach]

The pugs in +10s havent seen the 60m+ bursts

[plush roost]

Or priory church

[hazy breach]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

they are clueless

[tepid trellis]

pull after first boss priory

[alpine wraith]

priory has those footmen

[plush roost]

Yeyeeeee boy

[alpine wraith]

fuck them

cucking our burst

[plush roost]

Wtb mythic prism

[hazy breach]

I want mythic prism

[tepid trellis]

mythic prism is really not okay

[hazy breach]

[tepid trellis]

66k mainstat

[alpine wraith]

i have it

[tepid trellis]

is ehm

[alpine wraith]

big D

[tepid trellis]

wild

[warm marlin]

Surely I get M prism from my final vault before we kill dimmy

[plush roost]

Literally same lol

[alpine wraith]

well at least you killed saladbar

[tepid trellis]

or what is it 68k?

[alpine wraith]

we are in salad jail

[tepid trellis]

smth like that

[alpine wraith]

think it was 62

hmm

[warm marlin]

66, 3686*18

[alpine wraith]

ah

[hazy breach]

Hc is like 59 or something right

[tepid trellis]

though it was 3.8k for a sec

[vale pine]

one of our new members of the guild did say:
"i thought i was doing bad, then i saw fuu is doing 40M that pull"

[warm marlin]

extending time baby

[plush roost]

Btw speaking of dimmy. With 3% next week do u think we dont take autumn and just dont cd platform 2?

[dry zodiac]

57.8

[plush roost]

Cause i feel like add will die too fast

[alpine wraith]

depends on other people's dmhg

[tepid trellis]

nah u still do it charrend

[warm marlin]

imagine having autumn

[tepid trellis]

you are holding dmg on the platform

[warm marlin]

couldn’t be me

[hazy breach]

You just hold dps

[tepid trellis]

to line up cds for burn

its not only for you

[alpine wraith]

getting those 14sht and coup readyt

MOM TAG ME IN

[plush roost]

Just afk till knock

Bet

Push*

[tepid trellis]

im hoping we kill it monday

i want freedom

[plush roost]

That would be sick

Were only a 2 day guild

So we done till wednesday

[lilac stag]

You want Lost Ark

[vale pine]

[languid moss]

this is what we like to see

[tepid trellis]

no im gonna be playing the new EA skate game

non stop

[lilac stag]

Wait what?

off to the google machine

[plush roost]

And for clarity so i can chat with my hpal, we want autumn at around 5minutes yeah?

[vale pine]

ohh interessting

[alpine wraith]

autumn works at any time i think

[tepid trellis]

just as soon as you land on 2nd platform

[alpine wraith]

ah that one

[plush roost]

I think they want first autumn for themselves

[alpine wraith]

was it 45 secs then 2:45 then 5 mins or so

[shadow lance]

Damn, you guys are good

[plush roost]

Ah so around 430 5ish min then

[alpine wraith]

so you get third

[dry zodiac]

When do we want autumn on nexus king?

[alpine wraith]

first or second i think

[tepid trellis]

anywhere in p1

[plush roost]

Just on pull or w.e its up

[alpine wraith]

before platforms

[tepid trellis]

so at like 45sec in

when they have it up

[alpine wraith]

yea that is when they get it

first

[plush roost]

Usually have it so flag is up before ghosties

[alpine wraith]

summer->autumn

[plush roost]

All sick gamers held back by jobs and life smhmyhead

[shadow lance]

Yep, I can relate, only a part of my guild is in that case

Others are just not that good ahaha

But Fun > perf

[plush roost]

Our tech is that our leadership team does insane prep and we review every wipe (that isnt oops im bad mb) so pull count is insanely low usually

Makes 2 day reasonable for fast prog

[warm marlin]

we get linked a dratnos video and maybe half the guild watches it

[plush roost]

Hahaha

Based

[shadow lance]

Issue is that people never check the new mech when we go into boss

So watching a vod is a non sense

Especially from your spec pov

[plush roost]

I peep speed or kush usually to seehow they press cds

And then go from there

[shadow lance]

Yes, I also check multiples logs

[plush roost]

Im very much a, learn by doing, person unlucky

[shadow lance]

But we must be 2 in the roster doing it

[short radish]

do we only want the one autumn?

or both

[tepid trellis]

just that one

then it lines up

[short radish]

👍

[hazy breach]

One is fine, its playable without too

[warm marlin]

I usually have my mrt note written for the entire fight before first pull

[hazy breach]

But more comfy with

[short radish]

ye i have a hpal i can beg autumn for

[warm marlin]

Not having to think about cd usage is very nice

[plush roost]

Maybe 2 if boss is dying fast so u can netherprism last 20 seconds of boss with flag

[short radish]

yeah agreed

i have all my dances set out

cbf thinking just press when i need to press

[plush roost]

Our saladbar died before my cb sec tec despairge

[warm marlin]

review the note with vod after each raid night

[plush roost]

Yeah speeds vod has every feint planned

Goes crazystyle

[warm marlin]

You kinda have to on dimmy no

[plush roost]

Yeee

[short radish]

even feint?

[warm marlin]

Prefeinting the knock so you recharge fast enough later

[plush roost]

Oops im 70% hp i can die at any moment now xd

[warm marlin]

Otherwise you’re dry

[short radish]

cant healers just heal me?

please dont tell me this is a forced vers flask angle

[hazy breach]

Shouldnt need to feint knockback really

[warm marlin]

it’s not that bad with gear

[hazy breach]

But circle and soak yeah

[plush roost]

P1 prog was a lot of smash stone/pot before bomb for me

The adds liked to tsrget me xd

[warm marlin]

It’s just that you can cover every single damage instance with feint if you prepress properly

[short radish]

good thing we extended on saladbar and are going into it at 713 average ilvl

[plush roost]

Yeah basically feint for every dark matter and bomb

[warm marlin]

so might as well

[warm marlin]

I think I have feint for every knock, dark matter, bomb until 2:10 or something

[plush roost]

U have to drop one somewhere, or maybe i need to feint earlier cause its really tight

Idk only had 2 hrs of prog last night

[warm marlin]

There is one that’s extremely tight

[hazy breach]

But idk i dont like it getting too cluttered and spammy to have everything laid out with tts

[warm marlin]

you prepress where last second of feint covers the second knock iirc then you just get it up before antimatter

[tepid trellis]

i just feint the knocks + soak explosion

[plush roost]

Got to platform 1 with 40 pulls tho!

[tepid trellis]

rest is piss chillin

[shadow lance]

Yesterday, I did /tts help before pull

Bad idea

I spend whole fight with a list of whole tts command in the back

[warm marlin]

it’s not so bad

I don’t normally have defensives in unless it’s something like dimmy where timing matters

was good on oab too to not have to pay attention to when the coins would explode

[hazy breach]

Ye maybe our healers are just goated but i dont feel like any timing is needed besides before soak explosion

[warm marlin]

I need to flex on the mages for taking less damage than them

it’s a requirement

[plush roost]

Yo you just got an upgrade bro

[hazy breach]

Me when im mega

[plush roost]

[fervent gate]

sorry for dumb question new to retail rogue what poisons should i use?

[upbeat sorrel]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[upbeat sorrel]

are delves good for farming runed crests

do i do 8s?

[shadow lance]

The talents one and the damage one

Switch to wounded if you need heal reduction

[fervent gate]

okay thank you :3

[spice matrix]

did any of your guys stream last night?

[astral axle]

you're always mega in my mind, king

[drowsy moon]

!talents

[mint violet]

The heck is sht stacks?

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[raven mortar]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[warm marlin]

Shoulda used the macro bozo

[drowsy moon]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[warm marlin]

Me 957 no autumn second coups after cb sectec

1mil easily possible with autumn

M prism

[cursive island]

So the 2nd symbols goes when ST is <10sec CD during SB/Flag window. What about when we don't play CB ? just press symbols when the 1st one fades ?

[hazy breach]

Cb doesnt change anything

Same rules applies

[cursive island]

oh yeah, we just want the superharger ST ?

[drowsy moon]

do u usually hold a dance when flag is up in 30 secs

ish

[hazy breach]

Yes

[hazy breach]

Yeah

[drowsy moon]

I send a solo symbols then

[hazy breach]

Not necessarily

[drowsy moon]

oh

I thought that was the tech

[hazy breach]

You want to 2x symbols, 2x dances every single blades

[drowsy moon]

like somefin like this

[hazy breach]

If you can use a symbols/dance without breaking that go ahead

[drowsy moon]

I remmber someone drawing tihs for me from here in s1

[hazy breach]

If not then dont

[oblique burrow]

is it possible?

dont we run out at some point ?

oooh no i misunderstood

mb

[slender thistle]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[mint moon]

I've been seeing people running forge and prism for double on use, is that back or is that just like a super minmax type shit and just running prism by itself is fine

[vale pine]

prism + forge is rly good on last 2 fights

outside of that, just preference

[mint moon]

aight now to convince my guild i deserve a forge

preciate it fuu

[vale pine]

just tell them that you rly need it on the last 2

[cursive island]

is their any kind of "pandemic" or whatever on Symbols where i press it during the active buff but don't lose any seconds

[hazy breach]

Yes

[cursive island]

if that make any sens

[hazy breach]

30% just like any other pandemic effect

[hazy breach]

Idk im not even sure its that good on dimmy.

Or rather, its far from required

Its definitely less damage on platform 2 to not use forge

[tepid trellis]

i just forge twice in p1 with cooldowns

then 18stack prism on platform 1

then forge on platform 2

[hazy breach]

But like if youre not gonna get the entire p3, ie if its like 3 min instead of 3:30

[slender thistle]

man i just cannot get this spec 🥲

[hazy breach]

Then forge is kinda useless in p3

[silent maple]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[raven mortar]

Should i hold coup until my CD's are up and then dump it ?

[empty plume]

I think you can't get a shadowcraft cp refund while having premed buff

so if you're sitting at 14 ShT stacked up you could 'waste' some procs i guess
(but you shouldn't be able to accidentally burn 7 cp if you activate dance for premed)

[narrow shadow]

It's a gray area I would say. You can determine if it's too far and send it hold if it's kind of close

[raven mortar]

I am having some trouble understanding the ShT stacks and how to max utilize them

can you briefly explain it to me please

[south sedge]

do the individual hits of coup update buffs dynamically like sectec?

[hazy breach]

If you are in singletarget with coup up and flag+blades is coming up in ~20 seconds, dont press any finishers

[hazy breach]

Yes

[raven mortar]

and i aoe ?

[hazy breach]

Just dont coup

Continue BP

Unless youre dancing ofc

Then use the coup

The general idea is to not use it when youre not doing any damage (ie outside dance) if it means you wont have any stacks going into your big damage (ie flag+blades )

[limpid sage]

wait you don't press bp/rupture either in that window?

[hazy breach]

Just stack sht

Cant do that if you use a finisher

[limpid sage]

yeah I just thought the sht stacking window was with 10 sec left

[hazy breach]

Yeah just coups is slightly longer

[limpid sage]

and that we'd keep sending other finishers until then

[hazy breach]

Doesnt particularly matter though

Just dont BP

Thats a waste

[limpid sage]

I've bp'd xd

but I guess it makes sense

[raven mortar]

how do i stack sht before my cd's ? should i just stay chill and not press any buttons

[hazy breach]

Dont press any finishers

Like I said above

[raven mortar]

I am a little confused, when I use bs or shurriken mt stacks are consumed somehow

[hazy breach]

If you are not at full CP yes

[raven mortar]

ahaaa now it makes since

[narrow shadow]

Damn, I started gearing this character a only few days ago but this spec kind of pumps.

Why isn't this more popular?

[raven mortar]

we need a detailed dps to see which spells are supposed to have the most damage

warcraft logs ?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt play like most other specs so people get confused and leave before they see any decent results usually

And/or people hate not pressing buttons for 5 seconds sometimes

[narrow shadow]

This perhaps

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-pool-chill-flamingo-gif-4915654372200413810

[narrow shadow]

Yeah, I guess the setup part is a turnoff for some

I had a fury warrior today arguing that fury was hard to play because you have to manage uptime of enrage

[hazy breach]

Its really hard to "vibe your way" into playing sub correctly

A lot of the stuff we do, while it makes sense if you think about it, arent that intuitive

[narrow shadow]

I guess it depends on the people. I literally picked it up a few days ago (played assa and outlaw in previous seasons) and it just clicked for me.

Like I like the vibe of it

[supple verge]

The problem is the rest of your group understanding how binary your damage is

[hazy breach]

Well since youre here i presume youve read or looked at any guides

[supple verge]

When you're out of CDs and there's 2 mobs auto attacking the tank it's like

[narrow shadow]

Yeah for sure, I've done research.

But playing it feels nice right away

[supple verge]

That's really not something you can help with

[narrow shadow]

Some friends told me I need to play sub for years before I can do good on it

[hazy breach]

Ye my point is that if you dont do the research (which most people dont) sub is confusing and does piss damage

[lilac stag]

Roll face a little harder left on keeb every 5 seconds

[narrow shadow]

The point to my advantage is that I play on comms with the tank, so I can help him pull with TotT and start stacking rupture and also understand when he will pull what

But I think that's where a spec like sub truly shines

[lilac stag]

if the tank is pulling for sub you’re golden

[hazy breach]

As an example: you read nimble flurry, it says evis hits 7 more targets so we use evis until theres more than 8 targets right?

No its actually BP at 4 targets

[lilac stag]

Don’t expect that dps in a wank ass pug. Hahaha

[hazy breach]

Because it just does more damage for some reason

Macabre is another one where the intuitive thing to do is to stack up for a big sectech

But the best thing is to use sectech asap for trickster passives

[narrow shadow]

Not even puling around me, but once I understand the route and the tanks pathing then I can adapt to it and plan ahead.

But planning one step ahead is what the spec is all about IMO so it feels right.

[lethal lark]

I've been toying around with s Fury alt and it's mind numbingly boring.

[narrow shadow]

Yeah, true.

[narrow shadow]

I agree. It feels very mashy, not fast like outlaw but just quickly mashing the same 2 buttons over and over

[lilac stag]

It’s more than one step. You also can’t plan intuitively around bad tanks

It’s a crap shoot

[lethal lark]

Lots of raging blow spam.

[lilac stag]

As I’m sitting on 18 stack of prism and we’re pulling 4 mobs 3 separate times before the boss

[hazy breach]

Thats why i prefer dawnbreaker while pugging, the route is usually the same and even when it isnt its not the end of the world to send

[lilac stag]

yeah that’s my goto for fillling vault

[hazy breach]

Something like floodgate you never know what youre gonna get

[lilac stag]

This week it’s like there’s no DB keys though

[jolly anchor]

Is there something that can reduce the cooldown of flagellation?

[hazy breach]

People doing loaderbots before big MOMMA when im at 18 stacks just makes me upset

[lilac stag]

hahah

Real

[hazy breach]

Blessing of autumn

[compact pollen]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lilac stag]

I just send 2m with dance there and pray things align back up

at least in coms I can let a guildie know pull more of anything just pull more

[jolly anchor]

ooh I see, so that's why I see people use it so early on bosses

[vital sage]

anyone have a pre-symbols reminder WA?

thanks ❤️

[prime gate]

hey guys, does anyone have a WA that plays a sound when u get a combo point refund? im having a bit of trouble making one that goes off only on a refund to max combo points thanks!

[shadow lance]

https://wago.io/1N-_8fnRf

[dense mountain]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dense mountain]

@prime gate grab the shadowcraft refund

[prime gate]

ayy thanks dawg

didnt catch the utilities section

[shadow lance]

I need to change the sound to a "Katching " sound

Need to note that on my hand

[alpine wraith]

i made it sound like ace for a bit

but changed it back to the normal one after a while

[shadow lance]

I got ace rn

What's the normal sound?

[magic dove]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lilac pendant]

When on shadowdance and have like 5 cp

do i finisher or builder?

4-5

[hollow spear]

Finishers 6+

Only exception is if your 2nd use of coup is running out

[misty hedge]

When you get the CB bug switching from sin to sub, does CB not cast at all?

[lilac stag]

Nope

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[lilac stag]

Get the WA

[lilac pendant]

if coup only used in SD, what finished do i use if 20s to dance?

[lilac stag]

Or play tea

[misty hedge]

Oh there is a WA convenient

thanks @lilac stag

[pearl topaz]

I just want to make sure I'm reading the guide correctly. Sub is played as a two minute class and you basically hold Shadowdance in between the Shadow Blade + Flagellation windows so that you have both charges available during the windows as well as making sure to have two charges of symbols of death available for those windows.

[alpine wraith]

no we are a 1minute and a half

we do use flagellation and shadow blades when available

[plush roost]

I did but i put sod before backstab and it ticked the shadowcraft un real

[warm marlin]

ah yea

cant do that

well i assume you mean sod before dance

dance/sod/bs in that order will avoid the shadowcraft bug

[plush roost]

Definitely have and can

Or maybe my fingies too fast

[warm marlin]

should not be possible

[plush roost]

I will adjust macro i didnt actually know its coded to not proc with premed up.

[vital sage]

tysm

[warm marlin]

its another bug

[lilac stag]

“should” and sub

[warm marlin]

you cant proc shadowcraft at all with premed

[plush roost]

Ive had it happen too many times on rookery last season

Wait

THATS WHY

[warm marlin]

ye

its why dance sod sectec doesnt refund you

[plush roost]

Okay i understand so much now

[steel jolt]

[warm marlin]

but we abuse this bug to outplay the sod bug

by dancing first

[plush roost]

I legit thought it had to do with your stance change and it causing the game to recheck

[wispy crystal]

If I have 30sec left on flagellation and blades, should I be holding shadow dance ?

I need at least 1.5 charge left on dance for X2 sTec in blades window right ?

[lone linden]

why does this secret technique not crit?

[empty plume]

coup last global of dance
chain a followup dance instantly
don't get delayed coup refund because premed buff is up now
???

confused me for a while

[warm marlin]

you cast cold blood before coup was finished doing damage

so coup used it instead

[plush roost]

Well thats insanely good info, i will never accidentally sit on a global after coup expecting a refund

[lone linden]

i cast coup WAY before

[warm marlin]

hmm

[plush roost]

Did strike eat youe cb?

[warm marlin]

maybe shadowstrike ate it?

ive only ever seen coup eat it

[plush roost]

Server tick moment?

[lone linden]

yeah idk, the shadowstrike didnt crit either

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KHZjyRfa3Ltrdmk7?fight=48&type=damage-done&source=30&pins=2%24Main%24%23244F4B%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24205371984.0.0.Rogue%24false%24382245&view=events

says i still had the buff up whilst i was secret technique-ing

[plush roost]

I did, Chibitarasu as well. Everyone else just uses warcraft recorder

[spice matrix]

Thanks chief

[plush roost]

My pov is horrendous gameplay tho was playing cold and tired xd

[warm marlin]

hmm

[lone linden]

no shot bombardments ate the CB right?

[plush roost]

Did evis crit after?

[lone linden]

nope

[plush roost]

Bombardments....

You may be on to something

[warm marlin]

you lost your cold blood at the normal time

after casting sectec

[hazy breach]

Idk your clones still crit

Strange

[lone linden]

yeah been staring at it for 30 mins trying to figure it out

very odd

[empty plume]

it could have been bombardments, if there's .55sec travel time on that

but i'd imagine that the cold blood would fade immediately

[wispy crystal]

If blades and flag are coming off Cd In 20s, do we hold Shadowdance and just auto attack ?

Or send naked symbols + sTec?

[empty plume]

backstab

20sec is too late to sectech

[plush roost]

Backstab soup

General rule of thumb is havr 1 charge and 35 ish seconds on shadow danve before cds

Btw in my tfd openers if i proc really good i can send 3 sec tecs. Should i sod the third one even tho my current sod is likr 6 seconds remaining?

Or just naked sec and then dance sodnlater

[wispy crystal]

Got it thank you. Feels tough auto attacking and backstabbing for 20s

Just staring mindlessly at my sTec available for the longest time

[wispy crystal]

This makes sense doing a naked sTec

[sinful depot]

can FOK and spread ruptures too

[wispy crystal]

I could also just use symbols + sTec and then reset sTec CD using rupture and black powder ?

Assuming 20s left on blades and flag CD

[sinful depot]

If u had three charges of symbols yes or would have three charges by the time your cds are back

[lone linden]

!log

[sinful depot]

Ruptures lowest energy spender so good for farming back quickly when tanks are chain pulling

[wispy crystal]

Notice most top rogues are running cold blood now for M+ is that right ?

[grand grotto]

Any can told me what I'm doing wrong? I'm losing my mind, I'm doing 2.5m when I should at least doing more than 3m

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gA8aNCRQhJyXbpGL?fight=2&type=summary&source=8&view=events

[winter hill]

In m+ am I supposed to be holding coup de grace for symbols/dance windows?

[fathom adder]

so in aoe it was said to just dish out coupes, do you aim to/save them for dance now?

[lethal lark]

Anyone have a mouse over rupture macro handy?

[lethal gale]

Fix your opener. you are pressing ur buttons wrong

[grand grotto]

what im doing wrong with the opener?

[vapid lodge]

How long do you guys think its acceptable to hold big cds in raid? For example Salhadaar portal ads or Loomithar amp phase?

[lethal gale]

Go to your log look at casts>timelines then go to wowhead and copy what it says. you dance/symbols/sectec before even pressing flag. you double press symbols theres just a lot of things off

[winter hill]

first cast after shadow blades is usually sec tech. Point is to fit 2 sech techs into blades window. If you don’t put it on CD immediately it’s hard to get the CDR rolling to fit the second one in

Try something like

shadowstrike. Rupture. Flag. Symbols. Dance. Backstab. Blades. Sec tech.

From there it’s shadowstrike into evis until symbols and dance come back up

[plush roost]

Logic is because of all the extra cdr i can send the sec tec during my second shadow dance and just do my rotation normally and do 2x dance into cds again

Effectively making an "extra" sec tec in dance

[lethal gale]

fundamentally it looks like you dont understand your buttons yet. I'd maybe read the guides a bit more

[karmic harbor]

bro you have no idea what youre doing

[grand grotto]

Okay thank you all

[karmic harbor]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[karmic harbor]

read one of these

[empty plume]

I assume you're sending that sectech either way, since the original question was to sod it or not

so you're weighing [supercharging that specific sectech instead of a different one], against [whatever amount of sod uptime is being wasted]

doubt that specific question has been investigated in sim APL

also assuming all symbols casts are supercharging a sectech regardless

but not all sectechs are supercharged necessarily since you eventually send a dry one

dunno tbh, not a robot - just thinking out loud
it's like.. making the opening spike slightly bigger at some delayed cost, which is kinda what we do all the time

sod uptime is total energy and combo points -> cd refund cycle

[left ledge]

When do we send a non supercharged one

[empty plume]

later

[left ledge]

Is that in the APL

[winter hill]

While we’re spitballing, “naked” sec tech probably not as good since you can’t make use of the flawless form stacks outside SoD + dance nearly as much. I’d probably just hold it

But what do I know lol

[empty plume]

@left ledge ye, this is a quicksim I just ran

(symbols is ending here, was not cast to supercharge this sectech, supercharged one inside a dance prior)

[plush roost]

Okay so like to clarify my objective with this question is that is it mathermatically better in an encounter with good procs to go:
Flag dance [sod sectec sod sec tec sec tec] cds end > dance x2 later in fight.
Or:
Flag dance [Sod sec tec sod sec tec sod sec tec dance] cds end 1x dance later.

Since you will have used a sod charge you dont want to dance again

Yes this is hyper specific and requires good rng

[serene scroll]

guys i have a questions

why im doing this damage, should i do more?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Mq8v9YXdzVhLWjDb?fight=12&type=damage-done

this is the logs

someone can analyze the log for me?

[cunning notch]

Is it best to wear the highest ilvl weapon in the mainhand ?

[alpine wraith]

yes

[cunning notch]

gotcha

tnx

[empty plume]

@plush roost what is the earliest you can have a second sectech ready within a symbols?

sectech 54 sec cd - 1 per cp spent
symbols 10sec duration + 0.5sec per backstab/shadowstrike

I guess if you pandemic the first symbols it's ~13sec base

bruh what is this lmao

robot went ooe

[plush roost]

Happens to the best of 7s

Us

[empty plume]

furiously mashing evisc as energy regenerates

basically, as far as I can tell, the sim APL doesn't account for quite as extreme of a highroll as you described

[plush roost]

If that ever happens i just coup at 3cp cba

[empty plume]

same

[plush roost]

8cp evis > 5

[empty plume]

basic symbols requirement is < 3.5sec (among other conditions)

[sturdy delta]

!log

[empty plume]

sim will chain 4 symbols + dances aggressively in the opener, and a 5th sectech dry as long as it can do so before 1:00 mark (since it builds for flag if flag cd < 30sec)

[serene scroll]

!log

[stable ruin]

Looking at Raider.io and archon. why are the top players running Rotten but the guides say different?

[visual lark]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vagrant fulcrum]

we not holding coup anymore?

huh

@vale pine did holding coup for like 20s before cds stop being a thing and am I now griefing?

[chrome fern]

i mean the first line says 10s

[vale pine]

thats still a thing

yes

[chrome fern]

so halfway there

[vagrant fulcrum]

different

[vale pine]

you don't grief by holding coup

[vagrant fulcrum]

the 10s is not pressing finishers for sht

20s is using rupture / bp

just not coup

[chrome fern]

yeah but like coup is a finisher

i was half memeing

[vale pine]

yep

[vagrant fulcrum]

respect, i took the bait

[ornate lake]

On loom I keep ending up in a situation where I don't have my CDs aligned when it's time for the second phase.

So I drop from top 5 to bottom 5 towards the end and ruin my logs

[serene scroll]

any1 can watch my log pls?

[quartz prism]

outside flag+blades window and during your 'small' dance window with just SecTech on dungeon aoe do you use shuriken to build or shadowstrike?

[ornate lake]

[vagrant fulcrum]

i think sub is kinda just doomed on st fights

for overall dmg

unless there's short duration amps

[ornate lake]

My best parse is on soul hunter

[chrome fern]

particularly with a sub 50% damage amp, get zoldicked on

[azure mauve]

sub is doomed cause in st cause its just tuned not well for single target

[vagrant fulcrum]

to be fair sub does actually do infinitely more strand dmg

went sub and sent blades into the webs for this week's reclear

[azure mauve]

they should buff its single target and slightly nerf its aoe to compensate

[vagrant fulcrum]

after a pull of sin 🙂

[plush roost]

Jus buff rupture by 20000% and make warning signs finally viable

[azure mauve]

cause every rogue spec is a flurry spec now

[vagrant fulcrum]

they kinda did already

nimble used to be 65%

[azure mauve]

again

clearly it aint enough

its either play tier set broken sin

play outlaw

[chrome fern]

i think that (as someone who doen't gaf about outlaw) that the specs are in a good place

[vagrant fulcrum]

idk, for me id rather they just get rid of the finnicky cd business

[azure mauve]

or play undertuned sub

[vagrant fulcrum]

having sectec, dance and symbols avaliable but not pressing them being hte right play hurts me on a fundamental level

that, just autoattacking a boss

holding coup

it's just all cringe

[vale pine]

the aoe is actually not good

so you could buff st and not nerf aoe

[azure mauve]

ye do that

[vagrant fulcrum]

people just see us top araz adds

[vale pine]

the natural fall off of subtlety begins already

[vagrant fulcrum]

and think sub aoe is insane

[vale pine]

where adds die faster and sub starts to perform worse

on certain fights

[azure mauve]

yep already happened on araz

[vale pine]

we are still lucky that the raid is somewhat similar to s3 df

where damage amps and fight design benefits us

and that netherprism exists

[azure mauve]

araz you blink and the adds are gone

[vagrant fulcrum]

whoever came up with putting adds behind puddles as a strat, i hate em

[astral axle]

not to mention the natural fall off of other classes/specs being buffed

[vagrant fulcrum]

even if you can step, it's just risky

[vagrant fulcrum]

sub this tier is carried by the trinkets 100%

[vale pine]

balancing is such a difficult to discuss topic

[vagrant fulcrum]

and dmg amps

[vale pine]

every tier has the "best balancing ever"

and "better than every one before"

going from content creators

[chrome fern]

to an extent, i do believe bliz are capable and did have this stuff in mind

[vagrant fulcrum]

I just don't think they spend as much time on it as we'd like

[vale pine]

there is no data driven analysis or anything

[vagrant fulcrum]

busy programming quest items for midnight or some shit

[vale pine]

so in the end

balance is good

i guess

[vagrant fulcrum]

atm id say there's like

2-3ish outliers

[vale pine]

like

i don't understand how DK is still unchanged

[vagrant fulcrum]

tbh id say this patch's balance is quite bad when you look at the low-end

[vale pine]

it kinda never got nerfed to be mediocre from being insanely strong

[vagrant fulcrum]

like weaker classes

I played fire yesterday for a guild kill on hc salhadar, i did like 2m less dps than the arcane and had the same log percentile

who is balancing the game?

[manic sierra]

Dk have always been a love child of blizzard

[vagrant fulcrum]

bro this class plays a different game, trust me

I maintain one for boosting

[vale pine]

like looking at wcl

you would say

[manic sierra]

First hero class, it will always be their star child

[vagrant fulcrum]

is this for overall?

[vale pine]

too strong

yes thats overall

[vagrant fulcrum]

I would say yes, they are too strong

[vale pine]

balance is the only outliner thats noticable weaker than the rest

but like DK was op on ptr

and still is in the same league

arcane mage too

and this seems a common balance strategy now

which isn't bad

[vagrant fulcrum]

tbf

balance is better than the whole rogue class

for frac

[vale pine]

the "op" classes are "ONLY" 10% ahead of the rest

[vagrant fulcrum]

even if it has no aoe nowadays for raid

[manic sierra]

Convinced they show effort towards a class based on their popularity/population

[vagrant fulcrum]

100% agreed

we've seen it a lot

[vale pine]

and balance is like 3% behind

so if you cut off the top 5

you have a insanely good balance

[vagrant fulcrum]

I think we're ignoring the fact

[vale pine]

but they just get to do 10% more than everyone else

[vagrant fulcrum]

that only VERY VERY good balance players

will play it on later bosses

my guild has a fantastic balance player, all pink logs with r1s in previous seasons and this too

and even with this performance he's struggling

has to play feral on some fights

[vale pine]

well dimensius

is not in the statistic iirc

not enough parses

[vagrant fulcrum]

ye, salhadar is also quite the small sample size

2 sin rogues 2 outlaw kekw

[vale pine]

my point is still correct

the outliners are more noticable than usual

you usually aim for 3-5%

10% is quite high for wow

and i don't know how it is in m+, because we have no real metric for it

[sleek musk]

Is netherprism used as a 3 min trinket>

[vale pine]

if we go by play rate, we see a extremely bad balance throughout the seasons

[vale pine]

you can yes

it does not matter as much if you use it every 90 sec or 3 minutes

[sleek musk]

Thanks fuu

[vale pine]

both is similar output

tho the later is often stronger on fights with damage amps or in m+ on big pulls

you can pay it a you need/want if you only use netherprism

with prism + forge having a very easy use

where you just forge -> prism -> forge -> prism

[stable ruin]

Looking at Raider.io and archon. why are the top players running Rotten but the guides say different? sorry for asking again

[vale pine]

the diffrence is small

a lot of players just like rotten more

[lucid jackal]

If this was the case why is the stampede shit for bm still a problem, or why is Templar ret filled with a lot of issues still

[stable ruin]

thanks

[manic sierra]

Because we’re talking about output not whether the specs have or don’t have issues/bugs

[lucid jackal]

If this was true why was rogue op this tier on the last 2 bosses

Why is ele op, nobody has played ele for like 3+ years

[vale pine]

because balance/tuning is not only considering the last 2 bosses^^

[manic sierra]

You can cherry pick lots of ways to find your belief

[lucid jackal]

Why is mm > bm when bm is 10x as popular

[manic sierra]

This lol. Can’t believe it has to be said.

[vale pine]

why isn't ret op would probably be a better question

[lucid jackal]

Yes

Also very true

[vale pine]

mage is also op

[lucid jackal]

It's not cherry picking its poking holes in your belief system

[vale pine]

even tho they are not as popular as hunter

i think there is problems with balance

in that it often is used as a tool to make certain classes played

[manic sierra]

It’s not absolute bud, it’s still the majority.

[vale pine]

you see pmuch a pattern of rogue being shit in certain tiers as a class

and good on others

[lucid jackal]

Tuning is legit just random

[vale pine]

i won't comment on specs, as its even more chaos there

[manic sierra]

It’s all cyclical

[vale pine]

possible

like certain specs/classes have statistically a lot better positions in tuning

and there is mroe dev time spend going from changes/bugfixes/etc

in a perfect world, there would be no bias or bad ressource distribution

[manic sierra]

Also highly dependent on who’s spearheading class design at the time

Because human bias will always exist

[vale pine]

but ion did say it quite well in the interview

they just do what feels correct

which is a noticably more subjective way to distribute ressources and plan for tuning

and we see consequences of it

[manic sierra]

Or enough outrage happens ie: like recent ret pally discord

[warm marlin]

im feeling like mage needs a 7th rework

[vale pine]

like, let me introduce you to the 42nd shadow priest rework

[lucid jackal]

The ret discord has nothing to do with ret tuning lol

[sinful zephyr]

No Matter how Well the Tuning is done, there will be a Meta and thus a bias towards those classes

[vale pine]

if anything, the amount of outrage created by discords lately is a negative

[manic sierra]

100%

[vale pine]

idk why people cheer for things like this so much

never understood the appeal to artificially create outrage

[manic sierra]

Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night

[hazy breach]

Sub is last on fractilus so clearly it needs buffs

[tepid trellis]

Tru

[vale pine]

tru

and based

[lucid jackal]

You genuinely don't understand what's happening if you think the ret discord shut down had anything to do with it Getting a buff

[tepid trellis]

Also 6th From last on Nexus King boss dmg

[lucid jackal]

Ret was fucking garbage and it got a 5% buff

[vale pine]

also shit on first 2

and bad on the council boss

[manic sierra]

You made that assumption

[vale pine]

turns out single target performance does not matter as much

in a raid tier thats not patchwerk heavy like many others

[lucid jackal]

Wait Ur telling me st patchwork sims are useless?

Whaaaat

This is the first time I've heard this

[vale pine]

they are not

we know we are shit on the 3 patchwerk-y fights

[lucid jackal]

Ur telling me the context less st patchwork sims that go around in pre season don't tell you what's good in raid?!

[vale pine]

i tell you

hunters not playing the correct hero talent is cinema

[shy ermine]

I miss the blasting boss damage niche I can’t lie

[keen dome]

Maybe in Midnight

[tepid trellis]

About to get worse when kill timer gets messed up so you miss the last blades (happened to me on reclear already)

[hazy breach]

Yeah same

[shy ermine]

Sanctum damage profile was ideal for me

[vale pine]

-.-# same

[alpine wraith]

i managed to squeeze in the last sub 4:30 kill we will get likely

[hazy breach]

But i think sub is fine on shorter kill timers

[lucid jackal]

It'll get even better with turbo boost

[hazy breach]

Just need to adjust trinkets and usage

[alpine wraith]

yea if 3 mins you go forge i think?

or prism+passive

[vale pine]

fairly certain sub is good on shorter fights

[alpine wraith]

need to proc quite a bit thoi

[vale pine]

tho idk how we will perform with the .5 systems

assuming we get some

[alpine wraith]

the mm hunter was doind 18m first 40 secs

[vale pine]

on fights adds just melt

[alpine wraith]

and now bm will be even more silly and not as rng

[lucid jackal]

If boss dies in 2nd Cd's sub gonna go crazy

[shy ermine]

Surely double on use is better on shorter fights, the longer the fight the less the opener matters

[alpine wraith]

yea 2 min boss sub can do well

[hazy breach]

Depends

For example if the fight is 3 min exactly you want to use forge+passive

[shy ermine]

Makes sense, only get 2 sets of cds

[vale pine]

you need a bit longer fights to get full benefit from lilly

[shy ermine]

I am loving trickster sub with this tier set though, gameplay is so much fun

[hazy breach]

But usually if you can get the 3 min prism off the trinket is usually worth using

[vale pine]

my hopes for the next xpac:

• QOL changes
• I hope we get to keep a similar gameplay and damage pattern
• Maybe we can get funnel back as niche
• Modernization/simiplification of complex things that are redundant

[shy ermine]

I have myth forge and prism so it’s locked in on all fights of every length for me

[keen dome]

Funnel 🙏

[shy ermine]

Keeping double coup through new talents would be a big win, I doubt we get funnel back

[vale pine]

idk about double coup

coup kinda is a bit of an annoyance

because of the 1.2 sec gcd

[manic sierra]

https://tenor.com/view/deny-a-dream-old-man-dont-say-no-almost-heroes-can-you-deny-an-old-man-his-dream-gif-25154263

[shy ermine]

It’s huge rng but always feels good to me

The highs are really high, the lows don’t feel that low

If they fix the gcd and the shadowcraft nonsense it’d feel even better

[vale pine]

i don't mind the lows

[shrewd lantern]

yeah its chill i can kind of just afk autoing

and not be a loss

[strange chasm]

would trinket situation change with a 3min fight?

surely forge + passive goes hard

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[empty plume]

I like having downtime

[hazy breach]

Talked about it just earlier

[empty plume]

makes the class easier imo

sucks to get mechanics during CDs ofc, but there are classes where it sucks to get mechanics ever

[hidden grail]

definitely feels better than outlaw where even 10s of downtime can kill your dps

[random comet]

Outlaw doesn’t need downtime for their dps to be killed

[covert storm]

next xpac i would like flag changed to be like netherprism :)

[random comet]

I love that actually, that would be neat

[iron ridge]

not sure if my display is buggy, but can we stack Supercharged CPs with Symbols? Like when i use all charges i got 6 CP that changed color

[versed sun]

How do you guys stop yourself from spamming charges of symbols and shadowdance haha

45 seconds of just pressing backstab?

[icy mulch]

Backstab soup

😋

[lilac stag]

when are you pressing backstab for 45 seconds?

[keen dome]

When I mess up cooldowns because my pug raid found some incredible new way to do something wrong and I had to ask them to not do it and well there goes cooldowns

It happened on Araz this week. We get the echo and the tanks just.. run off in random directions. Boss going somewhere, echo soak going another. Just sheer "What the fuck are you two doing"

[latent crown]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[final gulch]

if i get a refund from my first coup in shadowblades do i still shuriken storm in between? or do i just send? or bp?

[empty plume]

why builder when already 7 cp

[jagged rover]

you just send, the shuriken storm is to build back your cp without wasting unseen blade

[final gulch]

i thought i read you were supposed to storm in between for macabre passive

[stone patrol]

we BP in priory or evis the knights?

[final gulch]

ohh i see

[hazy breach]

no, its so you can build CP without wasting unseen blade

[final gulch]

tyty

[hazy breach]

Doesnt particularly matter, evis does like 5% more damage to the knight at the cost of 5% overall

[north bramble]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[nova dew]

guys do we wanna stay at basically 0 haste or have some haste?

[hazy breach]

If thats worth it for you, go ahead

[runic hull]

I have some questions regarding single target. I am lately having trouble with maximizing my single target dps so I wanted to start over from the basics. This said, Is the aoe rotation the same as single target rotation? if not what changes and what are the different prios during single target? I am using the Cold Blood Build, and also off burst Im trying to sync Symbol,Dance, SecTeq as much as possible.

[hazy breach]

2x symbols, 2 dances and 2 sectechs every blades is the main concept

With no time inbetween dances

[runic hull]

I have only prism and peacemaker

so 1 on use trinket

[hazy breach]

Thats more than fine

[runic hull]

am I trying to always max my trinket?

like only use it on 18 stacks

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[runic hull]

or also lower?

I also have lily

but Raidbots says that primarily peacemaker is better since its myth and not hero

should I just use lily?

[runic hull]

yes I understand that I am wondering more specifically if anything changes form aoe to single target apart from the fact that using therotten you Shuriken to apply FW to more targets

[final gulch]

the only gameplay difference afaik between the m+ build and the st build is using coldblood. you wanna coldblood your 2nd sec tec in your cds

[runic hull]

not the first I imagine to take advantage of the mastery buff of flag

[final gulch]

what do you mean

do you not run flag in m+?

[hazy breach]

You dont do that

[runic hull]

I mean Flag stacks to 30 then applys. I do use Flag, I mean you are saying I should use it on the second sec teq so it also gets the mastery increase from flag

[hazy breach]

Flag is mostly capped by the first sectech anyway

Its moreso flawless form

[runic hull]

ok how does this affect me in the st more specifically?

[runic hull]

this is also a useful tip tho thx

[hazy breach]

I mean it kinda doesnt, its just the reason for the cold blood on the second sectech

[runic hull]

ah ok, taking advantage of the stacks

[pastel rampart]

do u guys prefer apple strudel or pie?

[runic hull]

the first

[pastel rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/mochi-mochimons-cute-kawaii-kitty-gif-492947389134426846

[vale pine]

both can be good if done correctly

[runic hull]

fuu could you help me with ST? I find myself loosing a lot of dps in single target, is there anything specifically different to do from aoe?

[vale pine]

you don't want to use BP

[runic hull]

I definitely dont use that

[vale pine]

but outside of this, mostly optimizing around cooldowns

[runic hull]

I think its an oprimization problem

[vale pine]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

^ like having sht ready

by doing the 10 sec rule

and other optimizations

also, importantly, not delaying cooldowns for too long

[hazy breach]

But just doing the cooldowns correctly accounts for the vast majority

[vale pine]

it is rly hard to give advise without a log or any more specific question

[runic hull]

how do shadow techniques work? I have never really figured it out apart from it stores combo points

[vale pine]

#subtlety message

read starting from that message

[runic hull]

ok, thx

where can I send you a log for example?

[vale pine]

you can do !log and it will open a log thread

[runic hull]

!log

I posted 2 on there

one from HOA and one from Eco Dome

[winter harbor]

So we do wax/oil now after buff (i was using 2x stones) but only in raid? Is M+ double stone or wax/stone?

[hazy breach]

The buffs dont affect them

Its only weapon enchants

Like councils guile

[winter harbor]

oh someone told me oils got buffed or something

ok cool, how do we sim wax for M+?

[dry zodiac]

#tc-research message

follow those instructions, and change it to dungeon slice

[drowsy moon]

how do u play on loom ithar

[runic hull]

ok very helpful, thank you. So im only mainly focusing on stacking this 10 sec before my cds are back right? both aoe and ST?

[drowsy moon]

like what should be my goal when playing sub on loom

[winter harbor]

ok

[drowsy moon]

I swaped to it cuz we lacked tangle dps

[vale pine]

you don't rly focus on it

[iron ridge]

Are there any other factors when considering playing double on use with Mythic Lily, Hero Prism or hero Forge other than just basic top gear sim?

[vale pine]

just stop using finishers roughly 10 secs before cooldowns

and thats all

[runic hull]

ok very useful thx

[queen rain]

build up full combo points before the 10 secs?

what yall do there to prep. pool combo points before 10 or at 10s

[winter harbor]

spam backstab on pull points

if over 10 seconds and you already have a coup ready to send with CDs then you can finish with BP

[stoic locust]

coup higher prio than black powder in dance?

[winter harbor]

if you dont have a coup ready for CDs then you can finish with eviscerate

the only thing higher than coup is ST

[hazy breach]

Yes

[stoic locust]

bet tanks

[torpid snow]

I’m playing with Trinket Araz + Nether Prism. Which one is better to use when both are ready to activate and the Nether Prism has 15+ stacks?

[shadow lance]

Prism

Prism >= Forge at 11 or 12 stacks

If I remember well

You also can just do the maths

[hazy breach]

Its more like 8 stacks

Buy yeah

[somber wigeon]

hey if i have hero araz, normal prism and mythic lilly should i follow sims and take lily and prism or follow what most players are using

[glass rune]

as a M+ player, should i be simming dungeon slice for upgrades?

[vale pine]

yes

[glass rune]

bet, ty

[edgy thicket]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[versed sun]

I see all the top logs have a window of just backstabbing for 40 seconds in between the shadow blade windows, it's like 50 seconds smashing dances and symbols into 40 seconds of just backstab right?

[lime mason]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[marble sail]

do we have something fun like this

[lilac stag]

Yes

https://tenor.com/view/apt-rosé-blackpink-bruno-mars-gif-1539050173426684783

https://tenor.com/view/apt-rosé-blackpink-bruno-mars-gif-1539050173426684783

[vale pine]

don't think we have that many ability names as song titles

[lilac stag]

Just keep it on repeat

[marble sail]

nah but they made convoke the spirits into 3 songs

i feel like we can easly do that

[astral axle]

shadow + step ; shadow + blades; shadow + dance xD

[marble sail]

bet there are songs just called shadow step and shadow blades tho

shadow step dosnt exist hmm

[vale pine]

hmm nice

[marble sail]

shadow dance exists

seqtech exists

[lilac stag]

Tornado of Souls

[azure crown]

Hello guys, new here.

around what numbers should i be getting on average at the 5 dummys

[marble sail]

umm, gear?

[marble sail]

112% mastery??

[azure crown]

Yes

[quaint lodge]

Well he is running a mastery flask as well

[narrow shadow]

Get around 21k mastery and then spread to vers/crit

[marble sail]

vers is just better at that point lol

just do what raidbots tells u to

[azure crown]

very helpful thanks.

[quaint lodge]

Generally speaking, it depends on the length of the fight and w/e

I"d recommend doing a key, posting a log, or a raid fight, etc

[azure crown]

is that better

[quaint lodge]

Theres not much we can tell from training dummy hitting or anything

[marble sail]

u can do multiple sims and choose what flask to use, but highly doubt mastery flask is the way atleast
also post a log from a key, doing dmg on dummies are not really a good thing to go by

[shrewd lantern]

No real percentages

[lilac stag]

Just run an advanced consumable sim