subtlety

[tame mirage]

oh that's huge

[tulip folio]

so u never run out of it if ur in combat

[kind wasp]

Can I ask if the Unyielding trinket is good for m+?

[hazy breach]

Yes our bis trinket is good for m+

[kind wasp]

"Is the strongest on-use trinket in our arsenal on any fight that lasts** five minutes or longer.**" is the sentence on wowhead, so that's why I'm asking

[north schooner]

can someone explain why we don't macro tea with dance bs

[hazy breach]

Keys usually last longer than 5 minutes

But yes

[kind wasp]

but combat drops and stuff. I was just asking, no need to be snarky about it.

[north schooner]

combat drops don't affect prism stacks

[kind wasp]

Thanks

[abstract mica]

why i lost so much dps by changing a same ilvl shoulder ?

[north schooner]

are you losing 4p?

[hazy breach]

Probably losing tier, but also you shouldnt really be running stat weights

Just do topgear

Its easier and more accurate

[abstract mica]

ty

[swift tinsel]

I'm sure he's got paragraphs written up for when his ban is over

[turbid edge]

Is evisc on AOE opener worth it if I don't have snd? Or I can just get it with coup later?

[swift tinsel]

but not a single log

[north schooner]

I don't need a log, I want a blog

[bright elk]

How does sub compare to the other specs on the demon hunter trio boss?

[swift tinsel]

true and actually

[hazy breach]

Either way, doesnt really matter

[turbid edge]

Oh it's such a small contributor to AOE DPS that it doesn't matter?

[limpid sage]

ya I'd just think it getting stacked 30 sec earlier + never going haste would be of more value

[stoic scroll]

Hey guys, do anyone have a supercharge reminder WA for prepull, I can't find it anywhere and don't really find supercharge ID?

[swift tinsel]

https://wago.io/1N-_8fnRf

[tame mirage]

iirc there are macros i need for shadowdance correct? like to use shadowstrike instead of backstab and gloomblade if that's still a thing?

[stoic scroll]

thanks

[swift tinsel]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[tame mirage]

so this turns my shadow dance into a backstab

while in that state

and pops a tea

[stoic scroll]

I'm using it like this:

#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea,null
/castsequence reset=5 Symbols of Death,null
/cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance

[tame mirage]

what does that do

i'm macro noob

[stoic scroll]

1st it just tea symbol shadowdance

if you hit button again it backstabs

[tame mirage]

and you're always gonna tea, symbols w/shadowdance?

does the macro fail if something is on cd?

[stoic scroll]

and if you hit it again within 5 secs it's not letting you use tea or symbols

if you want to make it higher you just make the number after reset higher

[tame mirage]

i thought that there used to be a macro to make backstab into gloomblade

assuming that's not a thing anymore

i haven't touched since dragonflgiht

[stoic scroll]

gloomblade is not used atm

[tame mirage]

ok so inside shadow dance you're just BS/SS

[stoic scroll]

you want to hit 1 BS for dance macabre

[tame mirage]

we still rocking secret tech?

[stoic scroll]

yes

[cursive vapor]

Why wouldnt you

[turbid edge]

Why do u macro symbols with dance?

You don't always symbols with dance

[stoic scroll]

I didn't find a case when I'm not symboling with dance, I always have Secteq back in the next 2 finisher in dance, maybe it's sloppy from me

[turbid edge]

Yes it's wrong. Your 2nd dance in blades doesn't symbols until your sectech

[hazy breach]

You should be dancing immediately once your first dance ends in blades

[stoic scroll]

thanks for letting me know I did it wrong 🙂

[hazy breach]

And most of the time (when the dance isnt 12 seconds), at that point your sectech has more than 10 seconds left of its cooldown

[stoic scroll]

then I can macro it to blades don't I? because I always want to do 2 symbols in blades?

I mean i have a separate symbols key, just wanna make the hit everything easier

[hazy breach]

What

[earnest fossil]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[unkempt copper]

You can macro it to dance as an opener maybe… but anything else is too situational to macro it to anything really.

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[earnest fossil]

Thanks

[hazy breach]

The reason theres not a ton of macros being recommended isnt because were elitists that think macros are bad

Its because they at some point make you lose damage

[earnest fossil]

For m+ sim should we just use dslice?

[hazy breach]

When there is no damage loss macros are recommended, such as tea+dance

[wet echo]

wouldn't tea + dance be dmg loss if your first gcd in dance is a generator and the first gcd after tea is a finisher?

[stoic scroll]

The only time I can see macroing Symbols with Blades is bad, if you have 1 symbols during the blade window (which is already fucked up planning), can you help me understand why is it a bad macro?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

You want to always supercharge sectech

[stoic scroll]

I'm talking about macroing symbols to Shadow blades now, that was about dance

[stoic scroll]

and you dance blade symbols secteq on every time you use blades I assume

the damage increase on the backstab is actually a damage loss, compared to an eviscerate at the end of symbols

[wet echo]

and how many CPs would your backstab give you if you use it before dance/symbols/blades?

[stoic scroll]

but maybe I doN't see something 🙂

[hollow spear]

Incredible how people come in here to explain to our tc how their work is wrong

[swift tinsel]

1 if before dance

[fallow nimbus]

You dance symbols build blades sectec

[swift tinsel]

full if after dance

bc of premed

[stoic scroll]

yes

you don't need symbols for the backstab

[swift tinsel]

never used it for the backstab

backstab is for a danse stack

[tepid trellis]

its funny af, especially when they say so without any numbers to back it up

[swift tinsel]

that's a fact

[tepid trellis]

objectively yes

[swift tinsel]

is there a gas leak

[hazy breach]

Youre right its not insanely necessary, but if youre using symbols later youre gonna end up losing symbols uptime anyway since you need to use your second symbols to supercharge sectech

[stoic scroll]

I know, but if you check the picture and swap symbols after the backstab with blades you won't lose dps, that's why I asked why is it bad to macro blades with Symbols (I'm here to learn from better players, I'M not arguing)

[hazy breach]

So better to have symbols than to not have it

And you want to have symbols up to generate more combo points from shadow techniques

[stoic scroll]

so you do it for the 0.5 sec extend mainly

[fallow nimbus]

How do you want to use symbols if you like on araz don't use cds on pull?

[stoic scroll]

yeah, that's a benefit, thanks

[hollow spear]

You dance with symbols

You use flag like 20ish seconds into the fight

[fallow nimbus]

Macros for sub don't save any keys because you always need to have them on their own

[hollow spear]

Which is basically one full cooldown cycle of symbols

[stoic scroll]

it's not about saving keys for me overall, it's saving key hits during cooldown

I couldn't optimize like bindings yet

[dense karma]

is it still worth simming stat weights even though raidbots says not to? im just wondering how heavy i should be leaning into vers mastery before worrying about other stats

[fallow nimbus]

Just piano your way to glory

[hazy breach]

Why bother simming stat weights when you can just use topgear

[fallow nimbus]

Take your favourite gems/enchants and just sim topgear

[dense karma]

kk thanks

[fallow nimbus]

Don't start simming gems and enchants to chase that +2k dps because you can't win

[wet echo]

downside of top gear is that you quickly get over the combination limit if you don't pay

but it's far superior in every way to stat weights otherwise

[hazy breach]

If you add literally every gem and enchant yeah

But thats pointless

[wet echo]

nah, you only need a few of each to quickly get over the limit 😄

[unkempt copper]

and would take a week to run…

[amber oak]

Does someone else also have that ToT is not 1 hr

but 30 seconds?

[hazy breach]

Hit something

[amber oak]

oh

lol

[wet echo]

initial buff is 30 sec and when you hit something, the 2nd buff is 1h

[forest lodge]

!gear

[wispy crystal]

We need to talent tricks for the 1h TOT trickster skill to work right?

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[fallow nimbus]

I manually delete all gems, have 1 vers, crit and mast then sim gems + enchants. Every sim another combination is on top so i just go mastery/crit because vers flask

[normal compass]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[pearl charm]

in the hardmode tazavesh, can you vanish on mailroom boss to deliver the package for the suck suck?

[kind wasp]

Missing head piece and a few runed for runed achievement on main. Any quick ideas to get it done quickly?

[karmic harbor]

Deathless tazavesh hm

[obtuse orbit]

swapping to sub for myth prog, and I have a couple questions. Sorry if I missed them in the wowhead guide. During downtime between CD windows, its still 2x dance/sod windows then relax till CDs back up right? For Coup, do i NEED to cast a storm between each of them in CDs, if CPs refill and I can just cast again? Feels like a waste of a global. Two part last question; How long do I hold Coup to line it up with dance window, and do I spend both charged CP stacks on coup or do coup,tech,coup finisher order? Again sorry if these are stupid questions and answered clearly elsewhere.

[vale pine]

. During downtime between CD windows, its still 2x dance/sod windows then relax till CDs back up right?
Think this might help for cooldown planing

For Coup, do i NEED to cast a storm between each of them in CDs, if CPs refill and I can just cast again?
If you get a refund you coup-coup, if you need to use a combo builder you only use storm if you can finish after.
So will only do during shadow blades on single target. Else just shadowstrike instead.

How long do I hold Coup to line it up with dance window, and do I spend both charged CP stacks on coup or do coup,tech,coup finisher order?
you would only hold when close to flagellation, and at max like 20 sec.

^ means most of the time you just send it

[pearl charm]

does shadow techniques reseet on boss pull?

[vale pine]

no

[golden totem]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[small crown]

what is no sc?

[swift tinsel]

probs supercharger

[teal prawn]

supercharge

[swift tinsel]

maybe sour cream

[small crown]

awkward

[obtuse orbit]

thank you SO much for this its a great help. I thought I was getting iffy on some of my 2x dance during downtime. that makes it way easier to understand and sadly missed that on the wowhead article.

[final gulch]

anyone have a weakaura for a sound effect when you get cp refund?

[karmic harbor]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[final gulch]

tyty

[woeful rain]

can we use sectech prepull key to guarantee coup early on first cds?

[slate marlin]

ye

[prime raft]

how do we sustain on the DH fight in the raid

[vale pine]

we hope the tanks pull the 3 close enough together

[swift tinsel]

I swear ours have never heard of that strategy

[wide maple]

In theory if you do cooldowns correctly you get 2 Secret techniques per cd window no?

[vale pine]

yes

[wide maple]

And for dance is it ok to send cds if you have 1 dance? Or should you wait for 2

[vale pine]

you want to have 2 dances every 90 secs, so want to have 1 cahrge and 30 sec on the 2nd ready when you use flagellation

and ofc close to 2 charges of symbols

[wide maple]

That’s helpful ty

[queen plinth]

can somebody quickly explain me how cd managemtn works as sub in keys? is sub like arcane mage, kinda big burn then mini burn then hold cds for big burn again?

or doe we reduce cd on shadow dance

kinda trying to understand hwo our cds line up

about to go into my first key 😄

[tender frost]

If you're heading into dance with coup up is it better to just send dance into sectec and waste the blade procs or go coup - dance - coup - sectec? You lose the dance buff on one coup but you dont waste any disorienting stacks

[warm marlin]

yes very similar, you have more flexibility on when to send your miniburns since they are a charge system, try not to overcap and have 1.5dances/almost 2 symbols going into big cds

[queen plinth]

so i send big , then kinda send shadow dance with symbols and secret and then fully hold until everything is up again?

but that would work out since shadow dance is 1 min recharge no

[warm marlin]

in a key you can mostly send 2 dances between

you get cdr from spending cp

[queen plinth]

ahhhhhhhh

and when i have like 1 shadow dance and like 20 sec left i hold yea

on second dance

[warm marlin]

around 30s out from flag probably start holding yes

[plucky niche]

do we only send cp at 6+ not 5+?

[lone halo]

When we send all the big cooldowns, during that rotation period as if you were pulling fresh. All CDs and energy full.

Do we use all the stacks of SD? Like when should you stop so that you can have like a SD for the next time symbols and ST are up.

Does that make sense?

[vale pine]

yes

[twilit oracle]

Question, when I sim double on-use trinket (Netherprism and Ritual Forge) it sims lower, is that because the sim doesn't know how to play them both together? I assume we just use forge with our cds and let the prism get it's super high stacks the whole fight?

[vale pine]

the sim does know how to play forge + prism

[twilit oracle]

So i'm right in playing that combo then and ignore sim

[vale pine]

you use forge -> prims -> forge -> prism ->...

the combo is rly good on the last 2 bosses

because of how the fight layout/design is

outside of that, no need to

probably better off with prism + passive

[twilit oracle]

Okay i'll stay on that then

[lone halo]

Ok that’s helpful. So your saying if you went
-90 Start
dance dance
Dance
-New 90
Dance
Dance Dance
?

[twilit oracle]

was swapping from assassin to sub on this boss (4th)

forgeweaver

[vale pine]

the 2 extra charges can vary

but ye

[lone halo]

Wouldn’t it have to inverse?

[vale pine]

well new 90
then 2x dance

because you always want 2x dance for your 90 sec cooldowns

you want to have 2 dances every 90 secs, so want to have 1 cahrge and 30 sec on the 2nd ready when you use flagellation

^ basically

and ofc close to 2 symbols charges

[lone halo]

Do you will always use 2 charges during 90s CS, and leave the last one for the next 90s CD?

[prime raft]

what is the refund sound trigger suppose to sound like bc i dont hear it

[vale pine]

yes

flagellation and blades ARE your major cooldowns

[lone halo]

Even in BL or anything they would change haste

Ok

[vale pine]

so you rly want to have cooldowns ready for them

bloodlust is kinda whatever for us

we don't rly get that much out of it

[prime raft]

been farming prism for 2 weeks and have yet to get lucky

[lone halo]

Not to rub it in but I got a myth one with leach and I just couldn’t resist going full time sub

Trinket just slaps

[prime raft]

i dropped one when i was assa and was like dont need it and gave it to a friend then the next week swapped to sub

[lone halo]

I preloaded it for mega dungeon last night and it’s to broke. Like we enchantment shaman telling everyone you need 5 min on target dummy

Basically went into every boss with 18 stacks and an anvil ready.

[prime raft]

was doing infinite dam

[lone halo]

Yea

When you beat the shamans at burst dmg they aren’t friendly

[prime raft]

isnt enhance poopy rn?

i dont ply sham so idk

[lone halo]

Yea

But their burst is fine

Like that initial tempest

I think their issues are with not having the tier set advantage like last season

@vale pine on prepull, how many ruptures should I spread before starting up the CDs. I’m talking big packs. 10+ mobs

[vale pine]

well

its more of a

"spread before mobs are gathered"

[lone halo]

Yes that right

[vale pine]

if its a big pull and already gathered, you would just go into cooldowns

[lone halo]

With tricks you, you can engage and spread some while it groups

Leaving stealth that early a problem?

[vale pine]

no

leaving stealth is not a problem

[lone halo]

K

[karmic harbor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYe2n9S-kdw watching this and casual uses storm in dance

[serene elk]

Hello there lads, idk how it goes in this discord but can i drop a few questions here regarding the spec?

[lone halo]

Is that good?

[serene elk]

Was draged into nexus progresion out of the blue and haven't played sub since anotrus

[vale pine]

!coup 2nd point

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lone halo]

Ask away. Everyone very informed here

[mint swift]

I know y says this but casual does x

[karmic harbor]

yeah he doesnt have coup up, he storms to bp right after

[serene elk]

First thing first then, i NEED to have 2 symbols when am using sb/flag?

[warm marlin]

hes spreading fw with rotten also

[serene elk]

Second thing is gonna sound weird but, how long is it fine to hold secret tech/cold blood while waiting for the 2 big cds?

And do i also NEED 2 dances for big cds outside of opener?

[karmic harbor]

sometimes experience > theory, in legion i basically ignored most of the tc stuff and did pretty good copying other top rogues

[serene elk]

Cuz from what i was praticing today, I was using secret tech and cold blood outside of big cds but it would cause me to desync my cds later on

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PMr7mxZzHqgfaw69?view=rankings&boss=-2&difficulty=0&wipes=2 i did a 7/8 HC today and had some mixed results

[whole lichen]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[karmic harbor]

@serene elk there's a kinda rhythm, i never really think about sod charges. if im in dance and sod isnt up i press it. going into flag/blades you want 1.5 charges of dance and you press dance again as soon as the first one runs out.

[serene elk]

ye i bet theres rythm to it, had even last time i played it in antorus but i forgor it

But i have to ask like how liberal I should be with sod outside of cds

[warm marlin]

am quite certain hes storming for fw spread with rotten

[serene elk]

Like do i only use one after opener and hold them till next set of cds or

[karmic harbor]

you only press sod with dance

[split shore]

!MISTAKES

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[karmic harbor]

flag/sb(2 dances) -> 2 dances -> flag/sb(2 dances) -> 1 dance and then it kinda repeats

[runic sequoia]

yes he gets the rotten buff

[lone halo]

Why the solo dance at end

[serene elk]

first part is opener>2 dances while big cds come back>2nd set of big cds>1 dance after them>repeat

If i got it right?

Like for overall minor/major cd usage?

[karmic harbor]

so you have 2 dances ready for the next sb/flag combo

[serene elk]

and what about symbols?

I cant use symbol even once betwen first and 2nd set of big cds?

[grand glade]

If I am going into a pack with every button and in stealth, and have a Coup de Grace, do I secret tech after Shadow Blades, or Spend x2 Coup de Grace then secret tech

[karmic harbor]

you only press symbols if dance is up

[ornate lake]

14 streets
Tank dies with so tricky up
Pop evasion to survive
Tank releases
All the mobs make a beeline for the tank spawn half way across the map, dragging every single mob along the way

This was the first time I saw this and it's so hillarious lmfao

[karmic harbor]

at least that's my understanding, you don't just raw dog press symbols @serene elk

[serene elk]

my guildie am replacing told me that its MANDATORY to go with 2 symbols in big cds

Ty for info but i have to ask one mroe thnig

[karmic harbor]

yeah cause you use 2 dances, so you need 2 symbols right?

[serene elk]

Regarding cold blood and secret tech

Like i've learned the trick of using cold blood on 2nd tech in big cds

But am having issues understanding how to use cold blood and secret tech outside of cds

[warm marlin]

its not really worth using it outside cds

[last gate]

lol my guild master saw my recruit msg in EU recruit discord

and his mad that im looking for another guild

xd

[serene elk]

nothing new

my guilds memeing me atm about app i sent

before tier

even the guy that reviewed it came to raid hc with us today

[serene elk]

soo legit forget about them outside of big cd or?

[warm marlin]

yes, there can be situations where it is worth it sometimes but as a general rule you just use in blades

[split shore]

i use it with secret tech if cds are 35 seconds or more before coming up

[serene elk]

flag/sb?

[split shore]

or with a dance/sod coup if secret tech is not up

[serene elk]

2nd coup i assume?

[split shore]

yeah, as klong as as u save it for the second secret tech during flag/sb u are fine

[serene elk]

with same 35sec rule?

[split shore]

yea

[karmic harbor]

@serene elk looking at the #2 log on frac, he never uses cb/sectec outside of blades/flag https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B1rtNWdf7ywTvLjV?fight=30&type=casts&source=268&view=timeline

[last gate]

lol

[last gate]

his telling me its not accecptable
i said do you mean that i should gquit or im getting it wrong?

[serene elk]

unless youre in giga high wr guild they prob cant afford to lose you soo dw

[serene elk]

thats smth on lines of what myguildie told me but idk feels giga weird

[last gate]

tbh the guild is bad lots of them playing with single button rotation

[karmic harbor]

#1 log also doesnt use cb/sectec outside of blades/flag

[last gate]

and we are still hardstuck on deimensus hc

[karmic harbor]

@serene elk have you read wowhead or icy veins guide?

[serene elk]

i did wowhead one

[warm marlin]

1. the main way to get value out of it would be using it on sectec in a dance
2. you therefore need to time your dance and gcds nearly perfectly (any delay is time you have to delay flag)
3. you need to delay flag anyway, because you can proc into having to send the cb sectec earlier, and delaying it for cb to come up is bad
4. if you delay your outside cd dance for cold blood, you are going to miss out on sending raw sectecs

it can still be good if you know you will be holding flag a bit and are holding dance for other reasons already (allowing you to ignore the above downsides)

[serene elk]

ngl opener tips are nice but

for rest is weirdly placed

atleast to me

no offense to TC who wrote it

been maining enha since 4.0 patch and i've just gotten used to how wordup writes his things

[karmic harbor]

a lot of sub is just knowing the opener and dance sequence tbh

like outside of dance we do tank damage

it's whatever

[serene elk]

ye ye but i am probably just overthinking inbetwen parts and it has carry on effect

[karmic harbor]

have you tried hitting a training dummy

and seeing how far off your quick sim is

i do like 200k less than my sim on a dummy

for 5mins

[serene elk]

staring at it atm

witing to start

did hc raid and hella keys todays for raw pratice

[karmic harbor]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[ornate lake]

On the first pull of Priory with the lieutenant, should we prior the elite or use powder for finisher (aside from couple)

[silent maple]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[serene elk]

1 more thingy

Should i go asc+writhin or double focuing lens?

(i have 720 crafted and hero daggers only)

asking for nexus king prog specificly

[swift cloak]

if I enter sd and after premeditation generator use first coupe should i use second right after ( it will use second supercharged cp) or stick to sectech

[karmic harbor]

ok why do people just backstab spam like 10-15s before flag/blades

[swift cloak]

you farm shadow techniques

since its not worth to use dance or anything

[hallow night]

Oh we're yopping on the meter now

[karmic harbor]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vocal lark]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[misty condor]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[winged harbor]

is sub better than sin rn in m+

[hallow night]

All 3 specs are being played in super high keys

Sub is super good though rn in keys though yes. A little bit better statistically

[ornate lake]

Man I absolutely hate when I die or group wipes just into my cool downs so when I rejoin I have 0 prism stacks and no CDs

[karmic harbor]

/abandon

[ornate lake]

[twilit oracle]

I’d say sub is better for pugs too, every group I play on my assassin they chain pull massive so I have no aoe half the pulls

[random comet]

Outlaw probs best for pugs I think but yeah

My issue with sub pugs is tanks do insane pulls and it’s hard to plan cd usage

And by insane I don’t mean huge

I mean like “why has he pulled one pack 3 times in a row what’s he waiting for”

[leaden prairie]

@tepid trellis

you on dimensius?

thought on sending 3 sod in the damage amped blade

to have an easier time fitting 2 sec tech in the amp

and if i do that, do i just send a naked dance sec tech in between cds

i guess thats fine

[random hare]

Why dont u send a raw sod on the miniboss before amp

Ramp to 14 stacks

And send dimensius home

[fair anchor]

does a macro like this work or having castsequence twice breaks stuff ?
'''#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null
/castsequence reset=5 Symbols of Death, null'''

(yes I have separate binds for solo dance or symbols)

[lucid jackal]

U just need to figure out how much damage to commit on the platforms vs saving for next

[hollow hound]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[shy scarab]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

well overall on the fight if we say there was no downtime you have 1 free SoD to use, so you could rip 3x for more supercharge

[lucid jackal]

As u prog u kinda figure out how much u need to commit

We hold damage on both platforms

[hearty flint]

In big packs for sub. You want to use bp when 4+ mobs have find weakness, how do u weave in coups if ur not using eviserate at all? Should you be using eviserate every now and then? Or just trying to stack coups procs so when u go into packs to use in cds? Are coups main prio when you have stacks?

I find the damage on target dummies is so much higher when I have coups but since there is 5 target dummies, if I just go straight bp spam the damage is less?

[lucid jackal]

Coup is mega prio

[fathom adder]

coup gets activated trough shadowstrike/backstab

[leaden prairie]

im also doing that

[fathom adder]

evi is not relevant, just use coupe when it procs over bp

[hearty flint]

Oh

[fathom adder]

not relevant in this situation, it is relevant in general

[hearty flint]

I thought you get coups from using 4 eviserates

[leaden prairie]

ye true you always have 1 free i guess you are right

[leaden prairie]

its hard cause you dont have time to ramp that much

but i ramp as much as i can

[fathom adder]

backstab/strike/autoattacks cann proc/reset unseen blade, if you hit 4 blades you get coupe

[leaden prairie]

but the dps on the last platform is hard still

sometimes im forced to send my stacked stacks

but ye i just did it

with 3 sod

and i blasted

was good

[hearty flint]

Sweet thanks bro

[little epoch]

hey guys so i simmed for M+ and it says Pacemaker 710 is -120kdps compared to Antenna 710. Should I still take Pacemaker due to not needign to play minigame?

[vale pine]

both is fine, the minigame isn't that bad tho

[honest grail]

Minigame is a lot easier to play in m+ than in raid I find

Honestly I was afraid of it but it's not that bad

[swift cloak]

can anyone tell me what i could improve

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/nbkRAhHQ2x47JX1c?fight=7

[balmy condor]

what does it mean to use eviscerate for coup? does evi have a chance to proc coup?

[plush roost]

Every 4 procs of unseen blaxe gives you coup de grace buff which turns youe next evis into coup

Tier set lets u coup twice

[balmy condor]

oh so its really just, "use coup"?

[plush roost]

Ye

[balmy condor]

should we never be in a situation where we use secret tech outside of shadow dance?

[vale pine]

eviscarate turns into coup de grace if you have 4 stacks of escallating blades

its still the same key tho

so you press the evis key

[lucid jackal]

There are times, but it's easy to fuck up and worth almost no damage

[grand glade]

if i go into a pull with a coup de grace and secret tech up, which do i spend first?

[lucid jackal]

So most ppl don't bother

[lucid jackal]

Coup

[grand glade]

coup, shuriken, coup then tech?

[lucid jackal]

Nope

Only do storm with blades, or 4 targets

But in that situations u would do coup sectec coup finisher wise

[median nacelle]

dh

[grand glade]

ah for the DM stacks, makes sense thank you

[real panther]

yo, do we still do bp > 4+ target or do we spam evi?

m+

if i can get a bro to answer me right before my first key after holydays, it'd be awesome my men

[placid elk]

nothing changed

[warm marlin]

always sectec>coup> else, bp 4+ targets yes

[placid elk]

you still bp +4 targets or 3 with fw

[real panther]

ok so i build with strike instead of fan i guess

thanks

[spiral sierra]

so I'm editing a macro for shadow techniques, and I'm wondering something...... what's the time in second between when you get a refund and it goes away, or does it just never go away untill you lose the buff or use a finisher? or should i be going to the WA discord for this information?

[merry radish]

which cds should i use if i dont have shadowblades+flagellation?

[honest grail]

Just picking the spec up since last ssn; any important changes? What's the rule for double coup?

[swift tinsel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[spice lichen]

Overall dmg use bp
If there’s prio and you don’t care about your overall use evis

[weak shale]

Is sub very spammy in its damage windows? A problem I have had with fire mage in the past is being sloppy in their combust where you need to do a ton of instant casts really fast, and messing up and double sending certain abilities which fucks your combust window.
I practiced a lot and it would just constantly happen and was frustrating to try and get right especially in high stress moments

[lucid jackal]

The spec is gcd locked in cooldowns yes

But the gcd is always 1 second

Doesn't scale with haste, or any Cd's

So it's static

[weak shale]

Ah okay that’s not as bad as fire then

[olive jacinth]

When i get out of sync in opener and have dance + symbol ready but sectec is on a 20sec cd. Do I use CDs to get sectec cooldown back faster? Or do i stay out and do normal rota until sectec is ready again?

[lucid jackal]

Sectec has to be your first or second finisher in your dance windows

If it has 10 seconds on cooldown, you can go symbols dance and it'll be ready for your second

15 seconds with coup up

[olive jacinth]

Ah yeah I can start a bit early yes

But why does it have to be first or second? Whats the idea behind it? 🙂

[lucid jackal]

Supercharger

Class tree talent

[olive jacinth]

Makes sense

[warm marlin]

if you're talking about the second dance of blades, you should always immediately chain your second dance after your first, and then press symbols the second time once sectec is either ready or one finisher away

[olive jacinth]

Got it thanks

[warm marlin]

so 20s away you would dance, then symbols after your next finisher (since it would be around 11s after builder, 7cp finisher, builder)

or maybe hold symbols for one more finisher if its not 10-11s away

[olive jacinth]

Another question. In between CDs when im dry af and cant build to 6cp for second coup. Do I use it with 2-5 CPs? Or just dont use it all?

[warm marlin]

Build as you can but send it before the 5s timer runs out

[lucid jackal]

I pool a bit but I doubt it sims any different

[warm marlin]

didn’t when I checked it out

Feels good though

[lucid jackal]

Ya

[sage leaf]

boys i have a question

why wowhead bis list for every class is different than what top rio players actually go for ?

[swift tinsel]

because bis lists are only included bc they'r required, they're not actually bis

[lucid jackal]

So it's week 4 of the season

Who has bis rn

You solve today's problems today, and solve "bis" way later on

Bis is only bis when you have bis

If you happen to get x item out of the vault that's a big upgrade now, you take it and itemize around it

[sage leaf]

so basically any higher ilvl is better than your actual bis ?

is that factual ?

[lucid jackal]

Yes

[spice lichen]

I mean don’t put some haste rings on

[olive jacinth]

Most of the time just sim yourself instead of looking at BiS lists

[swift tinsel]

there's multiple gear combos that sim within margin of error of each other

[spice lichen]

The bis lists are just a preseason “hey this gear has the stats you want” and any niche items that are higher than normal ilvl or have special effects

[lucid jackal]

Ilvl is really powerful in the game

[spice lichen]

And they say to just sim a lot

[twin quartz]

You’ve got a couple thousand secondary to optimize around with just enchants and gems

Can make a lot of things work great

[slate lantern]

My harvesters edict/ticking sack of terror meta is nearly complete

[swift tinsel]

ew no stop

[sage leaf]

i dont even know how to sim my character with different items or different enchants and gems and stuff i just put my name and get a result

[spice lichen]

Top gear

[willow fulcrum]

great show

[spice lichen]

Definitely watch a vid or something on it learning to sim correctly completely changes the game for you

[dense gulch]

In m+ for how many targets I want to use rupture, or when condition meets to rupture spread?

[spice lichen]

Spread it as your tank pulls things together

[dense swallow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[spice lichen]

And I think I’ve seen 3 ruptures so 6 targets?

[dense gulch]

Oh ok ty

[left ledge]

The exception is rings, neck, and trinkets

[spice lichen]

But like priory first pull no reason why every mob can’t get ruptured at least once

[left ledge]

A 723 signet is not better than a 710 prism

[lucid jackal]

Rings 100% will be upgrades based on ilvl but they do need to be good stats u actually want

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean if you’ll get myth halls ring

That’s not very great for you

As long as it’s not haste heavy

[spice lichen]

If a crit haste ring drops that’s 20 more item levels than mine I won’t even think about simming it

Yeah

[left ledge]

I mean depends how heavy it is on crit

Crit, vers, mastery are pretty good for us

But rings and necks don’t scale so hard

6 ilvls for a worse stat distribution on a ring is going to end up being worse for most profiles

It is always best to sim

[past valley]

hey guys im a 95 parcer assasination rogue burnt out and swapping to pushing keys. I just wanted to ask, roughly how much harder is subtlety to learn compared to assasination?

[left ledge]

Another exception this tier is belt

I forget what the break point is for belt

But delve belt doesn’t lose until I believe 710+?

Maybe even higher

[zenith thorn]

In keys sub more straight forward but prob wont feel that way if ure assa main

[lucid jackal]

Sub is easy once you learn the heuristics but learning them appears hard for most ppl

[dense gulch]

And then im using rupture only as im not on shadowdance window right ?

[spice lichen]

I do yeah

But not if they’re going to die within the rupture window

[sage leaf]

aligning the cds ?

[spice lichen]

You’re really just doing it because it’s cheaper than bp for dance recharge time so if they won’t live but like 10 more seconds I’ll just slam bps

[twin quartz]

I’ve played a lot of sub and sin in keys, and I find sub much easier to get top potential right now

But as far as learning sub, yeah that takes some time. You’ll be glad you did though

[sage leaf]

i swapped to sub from assa aswel i think it's top potential because you kill the top prio targets faster in aoe pulls without loosing alot of dps

[vale pine]

compared to what spec?

i found it incredible hard to play sub perfect in keys, too many variables and you need to make many guesses that can backfire

[twin quartz]

Compared to pugging as sin, especially in places like gambit where it’s often a chain pull all the way until you get into the building where the first boss is

[sage leaf]

gambit is the key that break me

[vale pine]

i mean thats just because you usually don't get restealths

[hearty flint]

Pugging as assa is unreal

Makes it miserable to play imo

[random comet]

Pugging as sub has its own tripfalls though

[hearty flint]

No funnel, chaining at 5% hp

Same every dung

All the good tanks pushing higher keys

[hazy breach]

I didnt play shadowlands. A bunch of people i know hyped up gambit as an amazing key, but imo its kind of the opposite

[random comet]

It has big aoe

That’s literally it

[hearty flint]

Way more manageable for sub + you actually bring good ST

[swift tinsel]

and shitter mobs that run away

[hazy breach]

Not even that much of it

[swift tinsel]

and the 4 guardian pull

[shrewd lantern]

i mean once you leave the 10-12 key range

[swift tinsel]

which is complete ass as melee

[vale pine]

shadowlands was the most mid or below xpac in all things, including the dungeons.

[shrewd lantern]

you should stop having tanks that chain at 5%?

[hearty flint]

You’d like to think so

[random comet]

Yeah it’s just my personal pet peeve of trying to align CDs with big pulls and not sit on them with tanks doing unreliable routes

[vale pine]

you just use wound and crippling at the first part of the dungeon

[shrewd lantern]

sl gambit was only fun on the murloc beach once per 3mins

when you had xymox trinket

and popped it with storm bp spam

[hearty flint]

Yeah I get you

[shrewd lantern]

also i should say, when your trinket was on axe

[vale pine]

tho i don't rly think this seasons dungeon pool is all that exciting

[random comet]

The number of times I hold flag/blades as the tank pulls one pack at a time. Then get sick of holding so I send and then they decide to pull the world and I’ve got nothing

[shrewd lantern]

the fun part of gambit as sub

holding cds one second on soleah

burst 20m because adds spawned

during cb sectec

[mossy spear]

sub or assa for arakara?

[hearty flint]

Both is good

Assa if ur tank will give u funnel

[vale pine]

ye i mean thats normal

[shrewd lantern]

theres alot of natty funnel in arakara

pull trash to minibosses

mobs spawn during bosses

[hearty flint]

Yeah for mini bosses

[shrewd lantern]

assa still has better funnel

[prime raft]

got the full dreadleather TMog and it is not showing in my tmog vendor anyone have a reason as to why

[shrewd lantern]

sub just does a burst rotation that also cleaves

[random comet]

Oh I know, just comparing how upset sin players get over restealths when sub has a similar annoyance

[shrewd lantern]

same mfs who talk ab “sub funnel” are pressing storm bp

[vale pine]

i mean its just a feelings thing

[shrewd lantern]

because “muh overall”

people get upset because

alot of people prob couldnt make sin in keys work

without IC

and SD

[vale pine]

like sin has their aoe spread bound to vanish or stealth

[left ledge]

I just think assa is boring as fuck

[shrewd lantern]

SD just removed needing to not refresh bleeds

when mobs are low

since they will die anyway

[hearty flint]

Has become to me recently

[left ledge]

Last time I actually enjoyed sin was DF s1

[random comet]

I think it’s more than that, having to make a choice of not refreshing because mobs die soon vs “wasting” points on damage that will never occur is big feelsbad

[vale pine]

the first dance is similar but has even worse requirements

[shrewd lantern]

IC is a crutch

[vale pine]

if you think about it, we should be even more upset because you rarely get the first dance to proc

[random comet]

I’m talking about SD there

[vale pine]

yet, nobody would say sub is bad or unplayable due to it

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah SD just removes the thinking

about mobs dying making you lose value

on refreshes

[random comet]

Well it’s means you no longer have to choose between two bad options

[shrewd lantern]

your other option

is to slam envs

[pliant robin]

do we know what the 2pc/4pc % damage increase is?

[random comet]

True. But you’ve also got rupture sniping for energy etc, scent of blood

So much is tied to having mobs ruptured

[left ledge]

What even is this topic about

[random comet]

Nice to be able to get the straight damage too

This is now assassination channel btw

[shrewd lantern]

i mean sub ruptures you kind of need to know

the mobs you put them on will live

[lucid jackal]

Deathstalker sin is fun

[shrewd lantern]

sin is just

[lucid jackal]

FB sin is kinda boring

[shrewd lantern]

ahh fuck it

[left ledge]

I think DS gets boring pretty quick

[shrewd lantern]

guy with rhe facts

[left ledge]

And FB is just straight boring

[vale pine]

FB assassiantion is just classic assassiantion gameplay

[random comet]

Fatebound is just a weak concept entirely

[shrewd lantern]

nah fuu

you move shiv and dm

in thr opener

its clearly different

[random comet]

Should be #1 on the list of hero trees needing an overhaul or a reset

[vale pine]

FB rly gets as vanilla as you can get in modern talent trees

[left ledge]

No that has to be DS

DS is actual garbage

FB is just boring

[shrewd lantern]

i mean trickster is the only

[left ledge]

DS is demonic

[shrewd lantern]

good rogue hero tree

[vale pine]

which people should love, because its what is always argued as fun gameplay that pulls players to the spec

but maybe it is in fact just tuning instead

[random comet]

I don’t think DS is terrible for sin I kinda like the loop but for sub yeah I hear you

[left ledge]

If caustic spatter wasn’t a thing assa would despise DS too

Just saying

[wispy echo]

Quick question regarding on use trinkets, do you araz first or prism ?

[upper narwhal]

Vanilla assa gameplay is better than DS gameplay because there's less friction to perform basic tasks like target swapping

[random comet]

Caustic spatter doesn’t singular focus right now anyway

[vale pine]

Just saying

[random comet]

And people hate it so maybe you’re right haha

[twin quartz]

I don’t mind deathstalker until things somewhat out of my control remove my mark, like killing pylons on araz, or not farming back my mark in time before going onto a platform

But there’s always vanish in times of need

Just annoying

[vale pine]

i would be happy if blizz would designate one hero talent to each spec

and update based on that

[left ledge]

DS should’ve been a rework to MFD

I said it

[vale pine]

for assassiantion Deathstalker
for subtlety Trickster
for outlaw Fatebound

[upper narwhal]

S1 running master assassin so you didn't have vanish to move your mark was cursed

[vale pine]

i don't know

deathmark was not a issue for 3 seaosns now in m+

assassiantion saw even play in mdi/great push

so while its annoying to play around, it did not hinder the spec from being the best rogue could offer

and competitiveness in the general game enviroment

[upper narwhal]

it just sucks that some hero talents add fun gameplay while DS mainly adds frustrating gameplay

[lunar crystal]

does chainpulling hurt sub in a very noticeable way?

[random comet]

It’s certainly not the only one or even close

Don’t get me started on tempest not being instant cast for ele

[twin quartz]

In terms of sub, what would deathstalker need in order for it to be playable this tier

[vale pine]

depends who you ask

i would in general say no, because we don't rely on restealths

but

[lunar crystal]

When playing, I dont really feel it?

[vale pine]

the first dance is a talent that requires not only restealth

it requires 6 seconds of "out of combat" time between pulls

[lunar crystal]

Yeah, I am basically never getting tfd in my keys

[vale pine]

and the power gain from it is high

[prime raft]

is FB OL fun?

[vale pine]

so you could argue subtlety loses damage by chain pulling

[random comet]

Requiring 6 seconds is criminal

[prime raft]

i dont just wanna go from playing trickster to playing trickster

[vale pine]

a lot of numerical buffs

like rly high ones

[lunar crystal]

Also, I notice that after some time in my keys, I start running out of symbols, or rather, it starts desyncing coming up after dance etc. Am I doing something wrong?

[vale pine]

just to highlight this

[upper narwhal]

tfd more often feels like a bonus when you get it rather than an annoyance when you don't, at least for me

[vale pine]

the first dance was reworked, it was the last change the spec got

[lunar crystal]

Agreed

[vale pine]

so this 6 second limit was put there on purpase and showcases what the dev team thinks the state of the art is

[shrewd lantern]

Idk from a fun factor

[vale pine]

i am not saying they did something wrong, but the restriction feels very random put on top

[shrewd lantern]

trickster being parry proof

[twin quartz]

I think the first dance should be something like arcane pulsar, where if you spend say 80 combo points your next dance will be TFD

[shrewd lantern]

is just so strong

[vale pine]

tfd would not be OP if you had it with combat ends

[random comet]

I mean they also fixed Killing Soree and gave it new issues

[vale pine]

and if, you can control it by lowering the extra dance duration

[random comet]

This whole kiss curse thing is going crazy

[vale pine]

the problems i feel are just a consequence of the current development practice

it feels to me like there is a lack of time to put into changes

many changes feel undercooked

and won't get updated in a long time usually

it seems to follow "a half done change is better than no cahnge at all" in principle

that said, sub with netherprism is fun to play and the general gameplay loop is good

so can't complain this tier

[slate marlin]

A lot of power comes from tierset alone

Prism is rly good on top of it

[twin quartz]

Imagine a world where lingering darkness for deathstalker sub gave a free charge of symbols on activation and double cdr for the duration

That might be pretty cool

[slate marlin]

I would start by making dn work with bp

[rose parrot]

Do you always use ss inside dance in aoe situations?

[sullen hare]

Yep

If by ss you mean shadow strike and not shuriken storm

[spiral bloom]

in aoe, outside of flag/shadowblades, is it worth delaying dance a gcd or two to get ruptures up before going back in or wait until I'm blocked by dance/sod/st

[lucid jackal]

Holding Cd's generally sucks

It depends how long the pack will live which like

[spiral bloom]

not surprising

[hollow raptor]

i have some choice words

[lucid jackal]

If Ur doing full on group play in 15s or whatever ppl do, it's probably not bad

[hollow raptor]

for whoever designed the way loot works in hard mode taz

[lucid jackal]

But when Ur doing 10s or whatever and you have a full geared group

If u delay Ur blades are just gonna not get full value on a pack yk

[spiral bloom]

I wouldn't delay major cds but for minis is what I was curious on

[lucid jackal]

U can delay your symbols and dances though since it's stacks

[spiral bloom]

yeah that makes sense

[hollow forum]

While playing with lilly and prism,is there a priority on how to use em,Most of the time lilly aligns with my shadowblades

[spiral bloom]

That actually makes enough sense I feel dumb asking, thanks

[hollow forum]

should i aim for certain prism stacks to use it

[honest saddle]

This is all subjective

based on key level, group comp, dungeon

you could use it at 9

[shrewd lantern]

If you need to ask

[honest saddle]

you could hold for 18

[shrewd lantern]

just macro to blades

until you get better with feels

tbh

[honest saddle]

good advice

[shrewd lantern]

prism has the benefit of being flexible

send with 1.5mins is a generically ok use

some runs you’ll want a bigger boom at 3

[tranquil sorrel]

Do I just spam black powder instead of eviscerate on AoE in M+?

Or do I evisc because of nimble flurry

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[tranquil sorrel]

ty, sorry im very new to the spec

[feral bluff]

are we shuriken storming between these two coup procs if you get max CP straight after the 1st one?

[gray wedge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

No

[tranquil sorrel]

What makes it so shuriken storm spreads rupture?

Whats the talent/passive called

[tepid trellis]

there isnt such a thing

[tepid trellis]

you manually spread them

[tranquil sorrel]

oh lol

[tepid trellis]

storm into rupture, storm into rupture

[leaden prairie]

stealthi

on dimensuis

is it even worth pressing rupture

during the damage amp

since its 10s lenght

[tepid trellis]

id probs not

[leaden prairie]

hm

[graceful crown]

!log

[leaden prairie]

i can fit the 2 sec tech easely now

was just wondering about rupture tho

[gusty schooner]

what is so special about netherprism that makes it SUPER BIS? i haev a champion one in vault, but also mythic legs. simming the trinket wins by far. what should i choose guys? i only have 2 t pieces so far at ilvl 691

[leaden prairie]

its a 1min30 trinket

or well its a trinket with variable cd

but ye its a 1min30 trinket

with no stats

so the budget of the trinket is basically all in the press

which is what sub want since it does most of its damage in cds

[lucid jackal]

It's an on use trinket on a spec thats damage is almost entirely concentrated into Cd's

[gusty schooner]

i dont think i will ever get hands on one beside vault, i only do m+ and sometimes normal runs, hc is could do a few bosses at best but not regularly farm it, is dinar system coming at any üpoint?

[lucid jackal]

It's the highest budget on use as well so

[warm marlin]

yes turbo boost is coming back

.5 probably, not sure if its officially confirmed when yet but it is coming back

[gusty schooner]

so should i just skip the normal one for now and go for a mythic t piece or take it and enjoy it for now?

i mean if i compare them in sims its like 10% more dmg

[shrewd lantern]

idk the first 6 bosses on hc are piss easy

fract the wa plays the game for you

[warm marlin]

if you don't think you will ever get access to it other than vault and you have one in vault right now i would strongly consider it. you do also need 4p though and mythic tier legs are obviously good

[shrewd lantern]

also soulhunter boots

[gusty schooner]

the boots i already got in normal raid

[shrewd lantern]

yeah hc ones are 10% stronger

not gamebreaking but still

[gusty schooner]

i really dont know what to do here

mythic legs have our bis stats as well

[shrewd lantern]

i mean personally i would take legs

sub likes everything but haste

[gusty schooner]

but is netherprism that strong to the like of a spymaster?

it seems in sims like a trinket from next season

[shrewd lantern]

it kind of works like spymaster

[warm marlin]

try comparing it to a lily (farmable from key)

probably the best equivalent

[patent hinge]

Considering swapping to subtlety from assassin, but I keep hearing horror stories about the other two rogue specs. How hard is it to learn subtlety?

[warm marlin]

its very good but its not 10% ahead of the next closest on use

[tranquil sorrel]

I'm currently trying to learn it

and i understand why this spec needs a rework

alls im sayin

[shrewd lantern]

idk assa is just the training wheels spec

[tranquil sorrel]

debloat rogue 🙂

[shrewd lantern]

its not even bloated

[tranquil sorrel]

Nah bro it's fine

[patent hinge]

I feel like I need to swap to either combat or sub and like... I'm not lucky enough for Roll the Bones

[shrewd lantern]

outlaw is just a different skillset to be good at

you have to be, very fast reactionarily

[patent hinge]

also I still can't get used to them changing the name of the beating people up spec to outlaw

we're rogues. We're all outlaws dammit

[shrewd lantern]

that was 8 years ago

9 even

[frigid ingot]

!log

[patent hinge]

I stopped playing at cata launch and came back for season 1

so yeah it's still weird to me

[shrewd lantern]

sub and outlaw both kind of require you to not have dead globals

else you lose damage

well sub only during cds

[patent hinge]

so basically its like mage except my only spell is Stab

[shrewd lantern]

mage is slow

idk every class feels slow to me after playing rogue for so long

[patent hinge]

Frost feels appropriately measured, arcane is a bit faster, and fire feels like I need to chug an energy drink before every encounter because jesus fuck

[shrewd lantern]

sub you learn the burst sequence and you get 80% of the spec

[cedar willow]

This specs actually captures a lot of what I like about rogue and probably plays the best it has since dragon flight

[shrewd lantern]

but if you miss globals while bursting

rip your damage

[cedar willow]

Yea, if you misplay you do less damage *forehead

[shrewd lantern]

outlaw feels faster than fire, probably because you are permanently playing on a 0.8s gcd

[patent hinge]

The part that has me intimidated is how it looks like you basically lose the entire burst window if you send the wrong ability

[shrewd lantern]

and play to keep that up the entire time

[patent hinge]

jesus christ on a crutch no thanks

[shrewd lantern]

idk its alot slower now

last patch sl outlaw was like 100apm

[tranquil sorrel]

If you know how to play it optimally im sure it does

[cedar willow]

You got some flexibility, most important is knowing fight and boss ablities and losing uptime during blades to do random mech is biggest dps problem

[shrewd lantern]

early df sub was a travesty

braindead shadowstrike spam

[cedar willow]

Isnt that why we play wow? Start shit and learn ins and out of optimizing a spec?

[shrewd lantern]

dance felt like nothing since it was always up

we didnt even stack mastery early df

due to how weak finishers were

[patent hinge]

glad I missed that, sitting on full combo points would hurt my soul

[shrewd lantern]

now you ge to yoyo

and do tank damage without cds

and dropping nuke when cds are going

[cedar willow]

Tbh if I was doing under 12s id prob play assa

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah its not for everyone sometimes to just stand there autoattacking

letting your shadowtech stack before a big send

[cedar willow]

Around 14-16 cd’s are up for most big pulls and specs feels pretty good

[patent hinge]

I feel like shadow techniques should have a UI element

[shrewd lantern]

it does

you have a stacking buff

they reworked it from old random proc would give you combo points immediately

[patent hinge]

a UI element that you can see when everything is exploding because the mage is sending 87 arcane orbs, the warlock is pulling down meteors from hell, and the enemies are dropping a billion consecrations

[shrewd lantern]

track your buffs

the icon with the number of stacks you have

If you have 7 you’re going to instantly be able to spend again

when sending buttons

[patent hinge]

If only there were some UI component we already had set up to count to 7 that could gain some kind of indicator of your shadow technique stacks

like your combo points

[shrewd lantern]

doesnt the blizz tracker do this

[honest saddle]

I have a wa (and im sure a lot do) that makes a noise as soon as you hit 7 in blades window so you know you are getting a refund

[shrewd lantern]

i just played 2 seasons of crackshot outlaw so i can usually notice immediately when i get refunds

brain just registers it insta

[honest saddle]

the problem is

the game can be kinda slow

with letting you know

[shrewd lantern]

but yeah you can also just track the shadowtech buff and have a small icon where you need

of how many tech stacks you have

[honest saddle]

it refunds points slowly sometimes for some reason

so the wa is very helpful to know before you finish

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah hate that shit lmao

i think its coup refund delay

or some shit

[patent hinge]

so basically just drill the cooldown window until I feel confident and then take it into like lower keys or normal raid to test it in live is what I'm hearing for "how to start doing this without making an idiot of myself"

[shrewd lantern]

The cooldown window is the majority of the spec

then you get 1-2 mini versions of it

[dusk stone]

Honestly the biggest problem is that people try it, press random buttons and complaim their dps is low, even if youre not perfect the damage is still there. You just jave to generally do it right

[patent hinge]

Dumb question because I forgot where we actually get the ability to always have slice and dice up is on assassin, does subtlety ALSO get slice whenever we hit Eviscerate or do I need to put it back on my bar?

[sick basin]

You need to be really comfortable with it esp once you go into keys and you have to kick/dodge/stun in addition to it

[shrewd lantern]

stun

we dont do that around here

[sick basin]

I try not too as well but still better then dead

[shrewd lantern]

only if the cast is on me

[dusk stone]

Evis

But coup does it too

[shrewd lantern]

if it aint on me and the other guy has his kick up and doesnt kick

thats his fault

[dusk stone]

So you have it for free regardless, you wont have it on the opener so having snd on your bar is optimal but not by much

[shrewd lantern]

why i never use vanish for dps as sub in keys

[sick basin]

I will say I like that about sub

Having vanish for actual mechanics instead of bound to dmg window

[dusk stone]

Vanish is tfd reset button

So you kinda dont outside of raid

[shrewd lantern]

i also tricks dev evokers

before my sectec hits

give them a little prank

[dusk stone]

I tricks ret paladins

[shrewd lantern]

same

its conflicting when both in same group

whoever is playing male elf gets it

[dusk stone]

Lets be honest, they arent going to be notice anyway

[shrewd lantern]

I mean i use the same logic

when choosing someone to swapblast off a ledge in raid

because i use my blaster on cd

[patent hinge]

for stealth bar, it should basically be the same as my normal bar except with shadowstrike instead of backstab, and the cold blood macro on Secret Technique if I'm specced into Cold Blood, right?

[shrewd lantern]

or use jainas locket to drop a dalaran portal on warlock closets

and blame the mage

[ripe flame]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[queen plinth]

so is subrogue absolute garbage without tier?

[tribal blade]

kind yeah

[queen plinth]

when do we do dmg with 2 or 4 p

[lunar crystal]

I mean, in AOE you kinda pump anyways

[honest saddle]

I had old tier at 684 or whatever the max ilvl was

and got the new tier lfr 4pc

and it was like 500k damage increase

[queen plinth]

i have shit gear and s1 2 p pumping 2 mil st like it feels really bad

okay so 4p will be big gain

[tribal blade]

oh yeah if you have s1 gear the new 4pc will be an enormous gain for you

[queen plinth]

really likke how sub feels, i played it back in df and it was horrible

[shrewd lantern]

you’re a burst spec

[queen plinth]

well im maining arcane so

[shrewd lantern]

just gotta deal with you will have periods of literal tank damage

XD

[honest saddle]

a lot of people liked the dragon flight version. it was very similar to how it plays now, you just had cdr for coodlowns with vanish

[dusk stone]

Just literally the same bar

[buoyant birch]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[dusk stone]

Its extra cognitive load to even think your bar is different

Stab also doesnt replace strike, you still use it for pre med and danse macabre

[honest saddle]

agreed, you should have different keybinds for every button and not share them across stealth and unstealth

[shrewd lantern]

depends which df verson

[dusk stone]

Huh

[shrewd lantern]

since yk, s2 and 3 df sub

were different specs

[honest saddle]

s3 was basically the same as now, yeah

[dusk stone]

My stealth bar is 1-8 and my normal bar is 1-8

[shrewd lantern]

without dust yeah

[honest saddle]

I think dust went away in s3

[queen plinth]

i didnt like how m+ worked as sub

playing shuriken tornado etc

was toooo many buttons for me

[honest saddle]

I dont think I had dust in amirdrassil

it basically played exactly like it does now

[shrewd lantern]

idk i played outlaw in amir keys

[honest saddle]

yeah, I rememebr

it was the same

[shrewd lantern]

dust got axed

late s1 tww

[honest saddle]

the only difference was sometimes you would triple dance

in opener

on certain fighs for timings

[shrewd lantern]

just pray for the shadow rupture

on ashes pop

in opener

[honest saddle]

BIG DAM

[patent hinge]

My brain feels too smooth for juggling all four of these buff skills with different cooldowns

[shrewd lantern]

yeah you send 3 sectecs

in your opener with dust

[honest saddle]

wait

I think I did have dust in s3

because I rememebr it on tindral

[shrewd lantern]

well flag was a 1.5 and sb was 2

[honest saddle]

ahhh yeah

[shrewd lantern]

we had spreadsheet business

with dust

[queen plinth]

so in aoe do i get that right that i press shadow strike during dance and spend on black owder ,except i get that eviscerate proq?

[shrewd lantern]

4+ is bp

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[honest saddle]

do we do the single fok to spread find weakness now

[queen plinth]

yea then i got it right

[shrewd lantern]

not anymore apparently

[dusk stone]

You get it from the gather and from between coups

[honest saddle]

right

fok rupture on gather gets it up yeah?

[dusk stone]

It should

I would do an extra before you press flag

[honest saddle]

it has to crit

so its rng It hink

[dusk stone]

Storm is like 50% crit apparently

[honest saddle]

yeah

it is

because of talent to add 15%

and I am LOW crit

I bet for most its over 50%

[dusk stone]

Its over 50% yeah

I actually need to fiddle with my stats for more crit

Im 25 crit / 25 vers

[honest saddle]

I always value vers higher than sim

because of defense

if its tied or close to something

I stack it

[dusk stone]

Yeah bu i checked my dtps in my last key

40% less than other dps

25 vers is enough

[honest saddle]

I think so for sure

[dusk stone]

I finally got my causese and targetted by spells wa to work

Stuff is crazy crazy good

[runic trail]

Right, if you made a m+ run with 5 sub rogues with the goal of killing bosses within the initial burst window with evasion... how high do you think you'd be able to go.

I may have to experiment

[honest saddle]

maybe a 5?

or lower