subtlety

[swift tinsel]

I made the mistake of selling all my leyline residue bc I wasn't using it for everything and now the goblins have assaulted the AH

[shrewd lantern]

do the tw quest and pray you get one

[shrewd lantern]

my warrior got the dimmy trinket from ulduar tw

[summer lynx]

How do you sim bubbling wax btw?

[warm marlin]

I know it’s good but the cleave value cope

[swift tinsel]

idk if I simmed those in ds lol

just st

[shrewd lantern]

doesnt wax cleave

kind of

[swift tinsel]

ya

it does more damage the more it hits iirc

[shrewd lantern]

the animation it does trolls me

[warm marlin]

not as well as whetstone/oil though I assume

[shrewd lantern]

first time i thought i was standing in shit

[limber relic]

wth is wax? We dabbing?

[swift tinsel]

bubbling wax

[shrewd lantern]

I honestly assumed wax damage was static

[lilac stag]

@warm marlin already ahead of ya hahahah

[shrewd lantern]

and it’d fall off with seasons

[alpine wraith]

big waxer

[swift tinsel]

I've been a whetstone gamer the whole time lol

[summer lynx]

How do you sim bubble wax though, is there and option or a script or am I blind?

[fallow nimbus]

are nexus king timings ass without pala autumn?

[warm marlin]

it’s not that bad

[lilac stag]

#tc-research message

[warm marlin]

man i wanted to nap before raid and now im gonna have to go get my wax 💀

[shrewd lantern]

just run around outside dfc

[hollow spear]

getting targeted on soulbinder kinda ass ngl

twice before my big flags

[summer lynx]

ty ty

[karmic harbor]

With pools?

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/krill-issue-skill-issue-krill-issue-gif-25572478

[hollow spear]

rngsus hates me this week

first my vault, now this

[hollow spear]

line

and we have to be good boys and run to the back of the container immediately

[karmic harbor]

oh i read that as forgeweaver lmfao sorry

if you hit boss inside container what happens

also i think on soulbinder you hold flag for when all the adds break out anyways

[warm marlin]

hadnt done the questline before

[turbid edge]

Wait is wax close to the other consumables?

[lilac stag]

It’s better

[lucid jackal]

I tweeted about wax at the start of the tier

[lilac stag]

It took a bit of gear to surpass for me. There now.

[karmic harbor]

never gonna farm wax

[sand flax]

Is there any sim of RACE ? Like what's offset between the worst and the best race ?

[warm marlin]

i was hoping it would get outscaled

[lilac stag]

Megan orc is 1.8% better than the worse races

[karmic harbor]

bloodmallet i think

[lilac stag]

And about .4% ahead of dwarf/orc

[karmic harbor]

https://bloodmallet.com/chart/rogue/subtlety/races/castingpatchwerk @sand flax

[sand flax]

cheers guys

[lilac stag]

Poor zandalari is the poop

[karmic harbor]

if i ever join a guild that stops me playing belf ill just switch guilds

[slate lantern]

youll have to pry my goblin out of my gold dead hands

[opal saffron]

is there a one button macro for burst ?

[sand flax]

Just loving gnome/mechagnome looks. Is there any toy with a low CD to get the gnome looks ? (no Tmorph)

[slate lantern]

[karmic harbor]

/cast flagellation
/cast rupture
/cast shadow dance
/cast symbols of death
/cast backstab

that might work

[lilac stag]

Stop

Spreading

Misinformation

[opal saffron]

like shadowdance+thistle tea

[karmic harbor]

https://tenor.com/view/missinformation-gif-12952912843160371640

[spice matrix]

undead worst race, best aesthetically imo

[slate lantern]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[chrome palm]

you can farm it in normal dfc

[sick sand]

ey guys is dmg to Plexus shield counted to details meters?

[chrome palm]

just keep resetting up to the first boss as outlaw

[opal saffron]

im so noob, u press tea only with shadow dance in m+ ?

[slate lantern]

OUTLAW IS USEFUL CONFIRMED

[chrome palm]

you can grapple vanish the big boys and continue the looting

[serene notch]

any tricks i can use to build stacks for prism at start of key?

[chrome palm]

it resets

[serene notch]

pull 1 always feel anemic

[lilac stag]

Get forge or lily

[slate lantern]

or pvp trink

[serene notch]

i have myth lily but prism sims better/once you have it going its way better

just alays the opening pull feels awful

double on use?

maybe double on use is the way

[chrome palm]

its just 1 pull

double on use doesnt actually fix this issue

[serene notch]

yea just in some dungeons pull one is so significant like priory

[chrome palm]

because your next prism is just 9 stacks instead of 18

[hazy breach]

Its not though

[grizzled fjord]

Can you macro Netherprism to Shadow Blades or is it beneficial to keep them separated?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[lilac stag]

Lily lily Prism x18, repeat.

[serene notch]

yea something like this

[chrome palm]

surely pacemaker is better

[lilac stag]

doubt

[serene notch]

i think it depends on how much you get out of the banger stack

i like this double trinket idea, ill give it a whirl

[lilac stag]

Lily mythic sims better as 2x than pacemaker mythic for me at least.

[limber relic]

Just be like my tanks and pull 3 mobs when i have full cds and a 18 stack

[shrewd lantern]

When will people remember

double is only much of a thing with forge and prism

[limber relic]

^ Works so perfect with forge

[lilac stag]

It’s not. Lol

Just forge is better than Lilly

Lily is still strong

And in keys you have something every flag

but go on

[alpine wraith]

yea it is just tuning

[serene notch]

have you been playing double on use @lilac stag ?

[shrewd lantern]

You’d have something every flag with just lily

[tepid trellis]

i hate my life

we kill saladbar

and my video file corrupts

im over it

[chrome palm]

curse of salad

[tepid trellis]

thats my 13th reason

[warm marlin]

40 wax acquired time to proc it 0 times during the damage amp

[left ledge]

Grats on salad bar

I think we killin tonight

[lilac stag]

And you’re juicing every 3m with 18 stacks. Just like forge

[alpine wraith]

imagine not streaming so you hvae a vod

smhg

[tepid trellis]

ive been sick af all week, didn't feel like streaming

[chrome palm]

idk lily prism seems chopped

[left ledge]

That’s like -0.4%

[tepid trellis]

imagine the clickbait i couldve done

[left ledge]

[ornate heron]

is lily prism a good combo?

[left ledge]

What was the number

[grizzled hornet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[serene notch]

it worked i would have clicked

[lilac stag]

It’s fine. Forge is better

[left ledge]

Also is that autumn, because I swear autumn on that boss feels disgusting

I’m ending p1 at like 6.5-7m dps with good coups

[shrewd lantern]

stealthi gonna make a 30s clip

[ornate heron]

myth lily is simming better than hero forge for me for some reason

[shrewd lantern]

of his flag burst

into yt short

[lilac stag]

The entire point of 2x on use in keys is 18 stack gaming.

[left ledge]

Then intermission I get to actually pop all my cds with autumn

[tepid trellis]

autumn yes

[warm marlin]

holy moly

[tepid trellis]

but like a

[spice matrix]

no public logs = didnt happen 🙂

[alpine wraith]

getting at least 1 is good

[spice matrix]

grats

[tepid trellis]

its cringe af cuz aug evoker

[left ledge]

Yeah

Slight desync

[tepid trellis]

sometimes i felt like i was doing shit in p1

then i got 0 buffs

and was like oh

[alpine wraith]

ehehe

[left ledge]

If I don’t proc coup on first dance I know it’s joever

I don’t bother even looking

[spice matrix]

first time it was happening to me last night, actually tilted me off the edge of the world

[bleak wind]

they don't believe me its good becuase I am 1min 30 class, and we give to a monk instead for some reason

[hazy breach]

Skill issue not proccing disorienting before wiping

[trail ridge]

maybe dumb quebbin but for sub what parts of my kit directly tie me to focusing/cleaving off of 1 specific target? watching exiles rwf pov rn and im seeing him flag the add at the start but then swaps target to dimmy before add dies. was under the assumption that during big window if i target non-flag that its big dps loss

[alpine wraith]

i always forget this shit

[left ledge]

[hazy breach]

But ye when you strike at 3 in the opener and it stays at 3

You know its cooked

[alpine wraith]

you are not anchored at all as sub

[warm marlin]

using health pot for disorient = worth

[spice matrix]

[left ledge]

Yeah I see it go 1 2 3 and I’m like ye

It’s fkin over

[alpine wraith]

yea you know it is joever

[warm marlin]

i WILL hit full 2nd sectec in tfd in >50% of my pulls

[left ledge]

But when I strike opener and I see 2

[shrewd lantern]

im like

idk how i feel about tfd on araz

[lethal minnow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[alpine wraith]

the special one is strike get 2 flag rupture stab get 2

[shrewd lantern]

since that first dance has no cds

[alpine wraith]

POG

[left ledge]

Then sometimes you get the god pull and proc 3 fucking coups

[shrewd lantern]

anyway

[trail ridge]

me when i gaslight myself into thinking a class functions differently

tyty lol

[alpine wraith]

i mean you still cant go super dry if target has no FW or fazed

but usually they have or you can play around it

just flag does its thing regardless

[warm marlin]

i did have one pull yesterday with cb sectec + strike + coup in tfd

crazy stuff

[shrewd lantern]

You know when you have the juice araz opener

then someone misses their knock

[warm marlin]

cant relate missed one day of prog and we went from 85% to kill

i have like 3 total pulls on that fight

[fossil forge]

!talents

[lilac stag]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

Enjoy

[alpine wraith]

i got told to do dmg on pillars

so i kinda missed one dance on adds every time

unluck but it is what it is

it died fast

[clever delta]

I can't do any dmg on araz idk

But some openers at 20s are like 550m and some 350m crazy variance on first adds

But blasted fractilus and loom as sub today

[visual crystal]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[visual crystal]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[serene notch]

is there a known bug where a SS does not generate CP?

i randomly see my inputs getting gobbled up

i hear the audio but nothing happens

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[flint steppe]

A youtube guide for Sub Rogues said that the new Coup De Grace 4 set bonus is wrong, and the 150% dmg is on the first charge not the second---is this accurate?

[swift tinsel]

Not anymore

It was for a while on ptr

[flint steppe]

OK ty

[tall oriole]

can i use cold blood outside of burst or should i hold onto it ?

[dry burrow]

Is the water bolts in the first are of gambit not magic damage?

(for reference)

[void ocean]

Guys is the dmg on the Plexus shield included in dps?

[slow gorge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sullen hare]

it should be yes

[slow gorge]

guys why dont we macro symbols with shadow blade if we always use with it?

[sullen hare]

just like kaelthas and other bosses you can add absorbedDamage > 0 to the filter expressions if you want to see exactly what was absorbed

[gaunt bluff]

was there a recent nerf to prism?

someone told me it was a few days ago posted on wowhead but i cant find it

[swift tinsel]

No nerf

[sullen hare]

nope

[ripe flame]

I think you got hoodwinked

[sullen hare]

someone was spreading misinformation hehe

[terse dirge]

whats the proper way to handle if you get too much cdr during flag 1st part and your 2nd sec tec falls out like 1-2 secs before flag persists buff starts? do you delay?

[swift tinsel]

Only real change was adding stacks so it wasn’t a 2:30 anymore

[gaunt bluff]

yeah i guess i got gaslit

and he kept going on about it not being bis anymore unless u perfectly use it

bla bla

[sullen hare]

he's just yapping

[strong ingot]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[static lichen]

yo I have a question. So lets say in a mythic dungeon I am the only prio damage dealer and we run stuff like hunter and ret is it troll to not use black powder even in high target count? Im thinking its better to go full prio damage right?

[graceful rock]

I mean it sounds right

Do the keys feel faster?

[static lichen]

I have no clue im really new to sub so just trying to figure out if black powder is only good if I have more than one prio damage class in the group

I guess I have to test it out in practice to see

[gaunt bluff]

if im playing some shit like ara kara and im waiting 10 years on big spiders after smallies die im eviscerating

can usually tell after first pull if u need to

but hunter marksman should usually go dark ranger in that comp and do that job himself

[static lichen]

gotcha thanks

[tepid trellis]

they hotfixed it on AoE to actually get reduced dmg beyond certain targets

which it did not before

[gaunt bluff]

do u have a link to it?

[strong ingot]

How accurate is sub dungeon slice at the moment or do we just sim for a variety of target number/durations?

[terse dirge]

@tepid trellis hey sorry for the ping, was curious if you could answer this https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1413289426515394651

[tepid trellis]

just rip it

[hearty flint]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[dusk stone]

You mean for the aoe effect it does? Was the stacking buff changed

Or

[tepid trellis]

no just the dmg proc

[gaunt bluff]

thanks

[dusk stone]

Is it going to be significantly impactful?

[tepid trellis]

not remotely

no

[swift tinsel]

The damage passive from prism is massively overshadowed by the on-use

[tranquil sorrel]

Aight so I'm being told I have to play sub for araz... I gotta learn this in 2 hours how cooked am I

[lunar crystal]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[lunar crystal]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[slate lantern]

coming from outlaw??

[swift tinsel]

Have you played sub before at all

[solemn sonnet]

If you can learn burst sequence and then follow lorrgs you'll do alright

[slate lantern]

BETTER START HITTING SOME DUMMIES

[opal saffron]

im assa, i only need to press tricks once as sub in a key ??

[swift tinsel]

Lol giving you two hours to learn a spec is weird

[slate lantern]

with our hero tree we get the greatest quality of life ever

[karmic harbor]

You need 30 mins to learn sub

[opal saffron]

i wish i could learn this spec in 30 mins lmao

im so lost ??

like assa is fok if 3 targets else mutilate = easy

[fossil forge]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[tranquil sorrel]

Do I play pure ST talents on Araz? Why is First Dance recommended on that fight according to wowhead but on logs ppl mostly play weaponmaster?

[karmic harbor]

Learn the opener, we use it 22s in on forgeweaver. Learn the dance sequence use it everytime adds are dropped. Have 2 charges of shadow dance for each flag (the opener sequence). That'll get you through tonight.

[tranquil sorrel]

You only do your opener 22seconds in ?

[karmic harbor]

Reading the wowhead guide you can parse 70 on that boss istg

[tranquil sorrel]

Well your dance sequence lol

[karmic harbor]

Yes right before first adds spawn about when you see the first void zone

For forgeweaver specific

[tranquil sorrel]

Ok and I assume most of the cleave comes from Nimble flurry?

[maiden oar]

that and secret technique

[tranquil sorrel]

kk

[maiden oar]

fire first flag when itll make cold blood secret technique hit the first adds (2nd sectech in opener)

for my group its 20s but for some its later

depends on how crazy ppl are padding

[tranquil sorrel]

Ok, dont forget im completely new to sub since prob last xpac, how do I have 2 sectecs in my opener? isnt it a 1 min cd

[maiden oar]

cdr from spending combo points

applies to dance and sectech

[karmic harbor]

Your finishers reduce the cooldown of dance and sectech

[maiden oar]

honestly the best use of your time is practicing the opener

[tranquil sorrel]

aight

[fossil forge]

yo twins is double on use better than prism and passive trinket

For st

[maiden oar]

https://youtu.be/RUltGUGtuVw

if you like videos this is still good

[karmic harbor]

Opener + how to use shadow dance is all you need for that fight

[fossil forge]

I might have gotten a stroke writing that

[karmic harbor]

Forgeweaver trinket + Prism is really good for last 2 I've been told, apart from that its whatever

[maiden oar]

for the orb spawns try to time the secret technique as first spender of dance to hit when the orbs are under the boss

dont copy timings from lorrgs 1:1 for the dances outside of flag

[fossil forge]

ive been playing around with it i feel like antenna is better when orbs actually spawn

[karmic harbor]

Both seem capable of getting good logs with

[maiden oar]

imo 2min flag is best for 2nd flag but if u do intermission really fast flag wont be back when the amp starta

so might have to fire it at 1:55

[tranquil sorrel]

Do I ever use black powder at alL?

[maiden oar]

if u wanna pad

less boss dam

i just spammed evisc i love boss dam

[karmic harbor]

Don't worry about that

[tranquil sorrel]

kk

[karmic harbor]

Top log doesn't use bp

Last time i checked

[maiden oar]

also for intermission uh

[tranquil sorrel]

Man I was expecting to get flamed like in the assa channel but you guys are way nicer 😉

[maiden oar]

idk how intuitive this is as someone who isnt used to sub

[honest saddle]

The difference is negligible on that fight

[maiden oar]

but you want to get to full cp with a full coup from trickster charged

[karmic harbor]

https://tenor.com/view/austin-powers-dr-evil-mike-myers-come-join-us-come-here-gif-4627161

[maiden oar]

and spam backstab to stack up 14 shadowed techniques for the amp

[tepid trellis]

my dmg breakdown on reclear

[maiden oar]

this sounds insane but it is very good for the amp

[tranquil sorrel]

WHy are ppl playing weaponmaster over First dance on that fight?

[maiden oar]

when i stop extending i might go tfd next time bc the killtime is getting to be pretty low but i defaulted to wm because the fight was 6m+ and you do first dance outside of flag

[karmic harbor]

Prolly cause you move opener to 22s

[honest saddle]

Straight up, and I don't give a fuck who hears it or sees it, but a huge portion of why the sin channel is unfriendly and sarcastic if because whyspr is unfriendly and sarcastic.

[maiden oar]

i play tfd on soulbinder bc 4m50s killtime and thats a 20s opener fight

but idk if thats correct

i could be a noob

[karmic harbor]

I was thinking that

But some people like him so it is what it is

[honest saddle]

He's smart and knows his stuff. Hes also sarcastic, pessimistic (rightly so sometimes) and can be prickly

[karmic harbor]

@tranquil sorrel is this your first night progging?

[tranquil sorrel]

Yeah

[signal moth]

is it common in the opener to not get 2 ST in the first shadowdance window? Does it matter if i have to hit symbols and then dance before my 2nd sectech?

[tepid trellis]

why are you describing me, apart from the knows his stuff part

[honest saddle]

I changed the names to not appear so blatant @tepid trellis

[astral axle]

xd a discord mod in a wow class server being sarcastic, pessimistic, and prickly?

[tepid trellis]

mb mb

[astral axle]

COR

[honest saddle]

At least it's not reddit moderator

[tepid trellis]

cant believe the man with almost the same name as me would flame me that hard

thats crazy

i wont be able to sleep tonight

[honest saddle]

Legit crazy

[honest saddle]

I think its normal

[tepid trellis]

reminds me, i promised memz to do a log review for him

and ive just not done it

for like 4 days

[honest saddle]

Spoken like a true forgetful asshole

[tepid trellis]

[trail glen]

is any of the timewalking trinkets usable for us?

[tranquil sorrel]

Do I ONLY use Shadow Dance when I have Sec tec ready?

[opal saffron]

we dont use rupture at all during shadow dance ? so in a pack i wait 10 secs or so to spread ruptures ? or i do it before i pop cds ?

[honest saddle]

Yuhp

Shadow dance, symbols and tech lined up for dance

[karmic harbor]

Outside of flag/blades combo yes

[brisk raptor]

i'm trying to make a weakaura that puts these bars on the side of my character when coup de grace is usable. it looks like the buff is 4 escalating blade stacks. is there a way to put that in so that it will show properly?

[sinful marten]

are you supposed to shuriken for dm stacks

[tranquil sorrel]

At what point do I wanna save Shadow dance because my flag and blades is coming back up?

Do I always want 2 stacks at that point?

[honest saddle]

Trigger buff stacks >=4

[tepid trellis]

only between your coups during blades

if you need to build cps

[karmic harbor]

You want at least 1 charge and some CD remaining on the 2nd

[sinful marten]

oh so you dont waste unseen blade proc

or

[honest saddle]

At about 40 seconds or less you need to sit on dance

[brisk raptor]

is there a rule to saving coup de grace for a dance or cds?

[karmic harbor]

I'm 99% sure if you play dance properly you just send it once on the start, twice at 22s (flag/blade) and then once every add spawn and it works out to have charges at 2mins and boss burn for flag/blades again

[honest saddle]

I think that's correct for that fight

[karmic harbor]

On pylons you're gonna do terrible damage tho

[lucid jackal]

Its a small margins talent

Its like 0.5% or smthing in either direction

[maiden oar]

yeah i was peer pressured to send a bit on pylons

[lucid jackal]

TFD is generally better on 5 mid on less fights

[maiden oar]

but my boss damage increased drastically once i stopped contributing and started pooling

[lucid jackal]

But its also a talent most ppl just dont bother swapping

[sinful marten]

is this worth to do i see some people do this overcapping combo points to get coup up before flag

[lucid jackal]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[maiden oar]

yes but how long you spend doing it is fight dependent

on araz because of the amp you can go insane with it and backstab for 1000 years

but on a normal fight you dont want to do that

[teal coral]

I'm straight up evil

[tidal marsh]

Whispyr kicked my dog once

It is now DEAD

[honest saddle]

I wouldn't say evil... But prickly is fair I think

And now youve killed a mans dog

[signal moth]

whispyr also kicked my cat

[tidal marsh]

You'd think that, but then sometimes you witness the kind of shit he deals with almost daily

and you realize the man is an absolute saint

[lunar crystal]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[slow gorge]

is it good to play without tea and play with cold blood in mm+?

[maiden oar]

whispyr drew me a beautiful mspaint drawing

to explain fatebound shiv change

[signal moth]

out of interest, if you took our all of subt damage outside of the cds.. how much damage do you actually lose?

Reverse part of that question is.. how much of our damage % wise in overall is in our cd window?

[tidal marsh]

In smaller pull dungeons like Streets and Dawn is the general wisdom IIRC

[honest saddle]

Was it just a handmade drawing of a bag of shit on fire?

[mint swift]

Tf you doing in here

Is Assa this cooked

[charred plover]

stupid question but since i wanna have symbols for every dance, is it right to sit on 2 dance charges in situations where u can spam shuriken + bp? or what's the play here? (e.g. target dummies, m+)

[teal coral]

yeah I mean I'm aware that I'm a bit of an acquired taste or whatever you wanna say, can't really go through life without noticing it but idk. I don't particularly feel like I'm hateful towards people. Sometimes I'll do a bit of ribbing but none of it is ever meant to be an attack or something

I'm sorry if that's ever come across wrong

[tepid trellis]

you sustain like 2mil dps or so with just dances

[slow gorge]

@teal coral you are the goat

[teal coral]

that's my humor idk, sometimes it comes off bad

and that sucks

[mint swift]

Whispyr said literally mauled my friend the other day

[signal moth]

whispyr's motto from what I can tell interacting with him is.. ask stupid questions, get stupid answers.. ask intriguing questions and he will explain every concept of it until you understand it. I think he is a good guy

[teal coral]

generally it's not an issue

[karmic harbor]

Tea is more aoe, cb is more st

[teal coral]

https://imgur.com/EVRehLn

[mint swift]

That’s what you said yes

Or no it was

[teal coral]

also I'm kinda everywhere

[mint swift]

“Hiya”
aggressive feral sounds

[teal coral]

I lurk around

[honest saddle]

No need to defend yourself @teal coral

We can all be assholes and you do nice community work. You can be prickly at times but it's ok. I do think in general the sub section is friendlier than the sin section and I don't know exactly why

[mint swift]

You that dude I saw out ny window this morning

[signal moth]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-shrug-im-an-asshole-gif-12761357

[honest saddle]

It could be you, it could just be a natural thing.

[mint swift]

I think we can all blame Zac for this

[teal coral]

it very well could be me

I don't deny that

if people see my personality as an excuse to be outwardly rude that's an issue

[lilac stag]

Can ask you the same thing

[naive zodiac]

whispyr 🐐

[brave harbor]

Hello, when do I use cb+sectech if I cant get it during first dance

at what point in second dance I mean

[teal coral]

karuichopper 🐐

[finite sequoia]

should we afk a bit before every mini burst to stack shadow technique?

or is that a dps loss

[mint swift]

Brother I don’t know it’s like midnight and I’m suffering from withdrawal (patch notes when)

[honest saddle]

First to the moon, First to ghuun

[tepid trellis]

dont you have some PoE stuff to do (i dont know how that game works)

[naive zodiac]

nah kinda done with poe2

mop time

[lilac stag]

That was quick

[mint swift]

Mop… as in
Janitorial work

Legend

[honest saddle]

Is poe dead now that poe2 came out?

[mint swift]

You mop those floors

[naive zodiac]

tbf there is no new endgame grind

this patch was abyss + next campaign act

[mint swift]

Just wait for PoE3

[teal coral]

poe2 is to poe1 as diablo 4 is to diablo 3

I said it

[honest saddle]

Fucking asshole!

[mint swift]

True

[naive zodiac]

it’ll be good in a year or two (said that in december last year though)

[teal coral]

assa chat is toxic because poe2 is shit

heard it here first

[mint swift]

Assa chat is toxic because of the poisons

[rocky lava]

based

[signal moth]

i played 5 min of new league and quit.. cba when end game is the same lol

[teal coral]

[sinful marten]

wait on st are you supposed to do 4th dance when sectech is back up or wait for coup proc then send 4th dance

[mint swift]

Wrong am not are i

[naive zodiac]

every dance should include one sectech ideally supercharged and coup

[teal coral]

may your fatebound tier always bug

[naive zodiac]

but also you aren’t in a rush to use the 4th dance before your 1:30cds so you can stall for coup

[mint swift]

Survival doesn’t have fatebound sadly

[plush roost]

I hate deathmark desync trinkets gahhh

[mint swift]

I’m only cranking my hog

[honest saddle]

What fatebound bug

[mint swift]

If you played SV you’d know what I mean

[honest saddle]

https://www.twitch.tv/imexile/clip/PlumpExuberantGooseSSSsss-IrVUk-LgqfCcfId-

[sullen hare]

I still consider this a ravenholdt hall of fame post #assassination message

[naive zodiac]

[honest saddle]

So fucking funny dude

[sinful marten]

TY

[teal coral]

idk, it's fixed

[hazy breach]

Ye bro surely they fix that real quick and not....uh...

[teal coral]

blizzard said so

it's in the patch notes

[honest saddle]

Blizz said so

[teal coral]

[hazy breach]

True

[mint swift]

Yea true

So it must be fixed

[naive zodiac]

just rogue things

[sullen hare]

[teal coral]

they wouldn't just

lie

on the internet

[mint swift]

I mean MM has a bug for 5 seconds and they fix that

[honest saddle]

Lieing indicates they are capable and know what they are doing

[hazy breach]

"We'll leave it to next week" 18 days ago

[rocky lava]

Blame Ghostcrawler.. oh wait

[sullen hare]

Shut down the assassination channel until they fix it worked for ret

[mint swift]

Just fucking keep it closed forever tbh

Save Whispyr

[naive zodiac]

i’ve just played sub for farm but that is a WILD bug to not be fixed yet

[mint swift]

Every dumb question shaves 5 days off his life

[mint swift]

It’s rogue

[sullen hare]

He's kinda cute when his blood pressure shoots through the roof and that vein pops out in his temple

[mint swift]

The bug is flavour

[naive zodiac]

is it only rogue that has these wild gameplay bugs or am i biased

[mint swift]

Like the whole idea of coin flips. If you land right the set works, land wrong and it’s doesn’t

[honest saddle]

Hell be dead in a day at this rate.

[mint swift]

Is what the problem is

[mint swift]

The only other input I have rn is SV

And stampede has been bugged the entire season but not as bad as rogues shenanigans

And my hog sometimes misses completely which makes me wanna die

[teal coral]

please, more questions

I still wake up every morning

[mint swift]

Why do you do this anymore apart from money

[hazy breach]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1143988582437101608/1413155342887686204/image0.jpg?ex=68bae6f8&is=68b99578&hm=5d269af51b3e87751ae85bbdc64db5f1cf8b03cdd1d733eaeb71355c0255033f&=&format=webp&width=1032&height=952

[teal coral]

I DONT EVEN DO IT FOR THE MONEY

YOU THINK IM PAID FOR THIS?

[mint swift]

I mean the wowhead stuff

Dummy

[teal coral]

90% of my wowhead money is diablo 4 anyway

[mint swift]

Fairs

[teal coral]

the couple hundred I get every 3-4 months on a patch that requires me to double overnight

[alpine wraith]

makes sense 90% of my yt things come from poe and LE XD

[teal coral]

ain't really moving mountains

[alpine wraith]

wow is just like that

[mint swift]

If you had to play any non rogue spec to main for an expac what would it be

[honest saddle]

What do you do for work? Code?

[teal coral]

is not playing an option

[mint swift]

No

[lucid jackal]

I'm so ready for dark moon fair

[mint swift]

You have to play another spec

[pliant kindle]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[honest saddle]

For literally 10 years I have only had dmf to exalted to finish the insane title. I refuse to do it

[teal coral]

I'm in college working on a compsci degree after a music degree. I used to be a mechanic at a bowling alley but the place was terrible and I only really stayed cause I grew up in the place, so in november I quit and went to wowhead "full time" (as much full time as journalism could be)

[alpine wraith]

i tried rnging better parents

got bad spawn

[mint swift]

Did you use cheat engine?

Heard it still works

[alpine wraith]

nah got stabbed and shot

[rocky lava]

Is there a reasonto update WoWAnalyzer for sub? Looked at its code and half of the required stuff is missing to create conditions for our APL 😅

[mint swift]

God has forgotten to patch it

Abuse early, abuse often

[honest saddle]

Shoulda been white american male like me, idiot

[alpine wraith]

would have gotten kidnapped then

[honest saddle]

True and real

[alpine wraith]

well time to sleep

[mint swift]

Idk when nerfs are coming

[alpine wraith]

today was a good day

[mint swift]

They might at some point

[mint swift]

Same tbh

Got my first few 14s done

[honest saddle]

Ill play a different game if they ever do.

[lucid jackal]

Nothing needs to get nerfed

[mint swift]

I did see “uninstall irl” a few days ago

After wiping a 14 HoA pull 1

[honest saddle]

Just buff other racials

[mint swift]

Was the funniest shit ever

They were calling each other terrorists, slurs, bots

Peak entertainment

[hazy breach]

Hunters when they highroll are very sus though

[honest saddle]

Cant you just reset a 14 and try again. I thought it didnt deplete

[mint swift]

We are talking about irl patch notes

Resil 14s yea

[hazy breach]

I see my bad

[mint swift]

This one wasn’t resil

Yea,

But fr fuck MM high rolls

I agree with that

[honest saddle]

Yeah fuck those guys

[mint swift]

Genuinely having a blast on SV atm so I hope they either buff it or leave it be

[teal coral]

except outlaw

[mint swift]

BM was found dead on the streets

[warm marlin]

Rolling my gamba slot machine spec to decide if I turbo blast rank 1 raid by a mile or lowroll into a top 3 finish

[hazy breach]

Ye one of ours did 6.7m on fractilus

[teal coral]

outlaw literally bringing guns to a knife fight

hello?

[mint swift]

https://tenor.com/view/casino-oldpeople-oldpeopleonslots-slots-vegas-gif-27586086

“Hey why don’t you play MM instead of SV”
MM gameplay:

[warm marlin]

Mm lowroll is still a top 5 spec is the problem

They don’t have a lowroll

[mint swift]

I mean you’d wanna die

[swift tinsel]

They only looked at their aoe on ptr

[mint swift]

That’s the low roll

[warm marlin]

They’re just busted and have the potential to roll into turbo busted

[hazy breach]

Ye sub is bottom half on the overall charts so clearly we need buffs

[swift tinsel]

True

[mint swift]

True

[swift tinsel]

Based

[mint swift]

Buff surviva

[unreal turtle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[swift tinsel]

50% evisc buff Inc

[mint swift]

Bring merb back

[swift tinsel]

25% strike

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/hunting-shot-gun-fire-carrot-bugs-bunny-gif-5980544

[swift tinsel]

Killing Spree iteration process

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/shoot-your-shot-gun-recoil-gif-16142461

[hollow creek]

This spec is hurting my brainnn TwT

[hollow creek]

Lol

[honest saddle]

Can't believe a sub is top

on frac

[lucid jackal]

Literal god pull

[honest saddle]

hes 500k ahead of next sub

he most have crit 100%

[swift tinsel]

Yeah isn’t that the highest roll imaginable log

[lucid jackal]

No its just getting good EB procs in CDs

[warm marlin]

every imaginable source of rng i could find was good

[honest saddle]

he's using bubbling wax. That explains everything

[swift tinsel]

Ugh the dream

[warm marlin]

[honest saddle]

that seems like some good timings there partner...

[shell gust]

Do you pool dances and symbols for SB in keys or kinda just send?

[honest saddle]

depends on dungeon and timings

generally I pool

[shell gust]

gotcha, feels a lil icky sometimes

[honest saddle]

yeah, some pulls you will do tank dam

but unless the pack is going to kill you, its more dam to pool and thus a faster key

it's very dynamic unless you have a set in stone key group

[tepid trellis]

even regular dances now actually do alot of dmg on AoE

[honest saddle]

because pull size and timings change per tank group

[tepid trellis]

which is kinda crazy

[honest saddle]

its so much better than it was

[warm marlin]

yeah doing 15M with just a regular dance is crazy

[coral bear]

How do you know those commands, is there an advanced guide somehwere so I can learn about those informations? Im new to sub and want to master most of the stuff

Sites like IcyVeins n stuff only goes to general stuff, nothing like that

Id be even down to pay someone for coaching, not like the TOP BEST ROGUE in the game, but someone that has nice parses that knows most of the stuff so I could get a super decent idea of sub in a deeper level

[tepid trellis]

pretty sure, that entire thing from the coup command is in the icyveins guide

[coral bear]

Really?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[lilac stag]

It’s almost like our guides have been well thought out and written

Would be funnier if the !commands just linked directly to the guide

[tepid trellis]

only thing that i cant find is the 10sec full stop afk backstab soup

[rotund rock]

yo in like arakara where its just chain pull simulator if i dropped tfd what would I take instead

[hazy breach]

Tfd

Youll get it after the bosses, and thats good enough to make it better than any alternative

[rotund rock]

i mean bro i get like 3 procs whole dung

still worth huh

fair thx

actually looking at what i can take ur def right lool

[hazy breach]

Like if youre not going for inev then maybe tornado could be about the same

[rotund rock]

all trash

[hazy breach]

But also you can proc it way more than 3 times

By vanishing

[rotund rock]

yea i mean its really only in ara

where i dont get good value

[hazy breach]

But like the alternative if youre going inev is weaponmaster

And weaponmaster is complete horseshit of a talent, especially in aoe

[rotund rock]

yea seems useless

[hazy breach]

In a 8 target sim it takes 16 minutes for weaponmaster to be better than 4 seconds from tfd

[coral bear]

But all the rest id find it in the rotation section?

[keen trellis]

Do you mean this?

[hazy breach]

Ye now look top MM parse

[keen trellis]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tepid trellis]

you can ask the man himself, the lad who writes it is in the chat mr Raichu(eleem)

[sacred gull]

hey, shuriken stroms between 2 coup de grace is only during shadow blades or I have to use it also outside of shadow baldes ?

Should I always do 2 shadow dances in a row, or after opener, I just press it when available ?

[tepid trellis]

also known as elmo

[hazy breach]

Only during shadow blades or if theres 4+ targets

The entire rotation revolves around making sure youre always able to use 2 dances, 2 symbols and 2 sectechs every single shadow blades

Thats what the spec is about

[sacred gull]

outside of shadow blades I can press one dhadow dance / symbol of death then if I will have my 2 shadow dances ready for next shadow blades ?

asking a lot of questions but I guess I should jsut practice on dummy to see how CD management feels ^^

[tepid trellis]

@coral bear

[coral bear]

Thank u

theres so many elmo

waduhell 😭

[tepid trellis]

eleem

the green named raichu

writes the guide

[hazy breach]

Me

[coral bear]

@hazy breach Hi Eleem, sorry for the tag,
I wanted to know if by any chance you could tell me where you found all the informations about Sub, im trying to look for all of the details myself so I can learn sub in deepth

Oh man

Its the guy on top of me

[hazy breach]

I hit the dummy, i do the sim, i do the math and just see what feels good and has the numbers to back it up

[lilac stag]

We’re a dedicated bunch of bug enjoying TC cooking purple blasters

[coral bear]

I see

[tepid trellis]

i actually opened the icy veins guide, do u not mention holding on to coup

for flag

[coral bear]

Do u have an official guide or list of stuff u have

[tepid trellis]

or am i cooked

[coral bear]

Or I just have to harass the bot

[lilac stag]

!guide

[coral bear]

Ye i coudnlt find it eather

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

all 3 are quality

[tepid trellis]

the storm between coups is there

[coral bear]

Between the 2 coup

[lilac stag]

no soupy flag

[hazy breach]

Its not in the main thing but there should be a text thing below?

Is there not

[coral bear]

I still dont really understand the storm in between

[hazy breach]

Did i fuckup formatting

[tepid trellis]

the holding of coup for 20 sec

[coral bear]

Like, I dont want to proc unseen blade?

[tepid trellis]

i cannot find

[lilac stag]

I didn’t see it

[tepid trellis]

or the full stop 10sec backstab soup

[tepid trellis]

you dont want to, cuz it would waste the proc

[lilac stag]

!soup

[tepid trellis]

cant build to a new coup while there is a coup ready

is the tldr

so you preserve the unseen by not using strike

but a storm instead

not letting it go to waste

[coral bear]

So using another builder, like a shadowstrike or the backstab thingy, would waste it?

[warm depot]

do you storm for 4p coup in symbols/dance w/o blades up too?

[coral bear]

Thats why im storming in between?

[tepid trellis]

on single target no

[lucid jackal]

no

[warm depot]

ok

[tepid trellis]

on 4+ targets you do

[warm depot]

bet

wanted to confirm my gut check lol

[tepid trellis]

yes useen blade procs from backstab and shadow strike

[coral bear]

This thing?

[tepid trellis]

yes and that triggers and escalating blade stack

[coral bear]

So sorry if I sound dumb, cause im a bit lost

If im understanding this well, doing backstab or shadowstrike does bonus damage, (unseen blade)

and that unseen blade puts a debuff on the target for 10s, which makes them take 5% more damage,

and then I can redo it every 20s

And I dont want to waste the 20s occurance?, so I shuriken storm instead?
Why would I not want to proc it, if it makes them take 5% more damage?

Or am I just lost

[tepid trellis]

you are lost

fazed

[coral bear]

XD

[tepid trellis]

is almost 100% uptime

it procs from more things

you should probably read your hero talents through

[stoic flower]

Yoo, on M Nexus rn. Can we cloak Banishment?

[tepid trellis]

probably

never cared to try

[lavish sequoia]

Hello o/ noob question, just started playing rogue, do i always Shadow blade into flagellation or should i use them separetely ?

[stoic flower]

Okie ty ❤️

[lavish sequoia]

oh ty vm, it's true that i saw this but was a lil bit confused. Kinda tricky to learn a new class hehe

[hazy breach]

And if its not in the literal opener you just cut the first bit out and start from the flagellation

[tepid trellis]

played sub on fractilus

reclear

i wanted to kms

[lavish sequoia]

ty ❤️

[tepid trellis]

do you know how many times

[hazy breach]

I got every knock and every wall

[tepid trellis]

i started my burst

[brave monolith]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tepid trellis]

without FW?

WAAAAY to many times

[hazy breach]

Ye gotta strike

[tepid trellis]

cuz i keep doing dance into backstab

-.-

[hazy breach]

[tepid trellis]

WHY

did they fix the backstab talent

WHY

fucking dog ass

positional requirements

in 2025

icant

[hazy breach]

Atleast dimensius has a fat backside

In p1

[tepid trellis]

i might just go back to never doign the backstab

[honest basin]

dimensius got that 🍰

[tepid trellis]

again

im getting too mad

[hazy breach]

Surely they change that for midnight right

[sullen oriole]

how good is this trinket instead of pacemaker? simc is telling me its worse but idk (i have netherprism in other slot)

[hazy breach]

So backstab always turns into strike

[frail kindle]

surely

[swift tinsel]

the backstab is 0.2% isn't it

[hazy breach]

Its another active you would want with your cooldowns so shouldnt be particularly strong compared to passive options

Since you already have prism

[honest basin]

my copium is that shadow focus gets deleted and gloomblade moves up and applies find weakness from the front properly

[hazy breach]

Ye that would be good too

Or well

Then the pathing would be cursed

[swift tinsel]

can't remember the gain per optimization

[tepid trellis]

should just removed FW

[hazy breach]

More cursed*

[tepid trellis]

and shadowed finishers

[lilac stag]

My copium is they FUCKING DELETE FUCKING FIND WEAKNESS

[hazy breach]

Yep

[swift tinsel]

I would take this over apex talent

[honest basin]

listen im wishing small and hoping big ykwim

[hazy breach]

This one trick removes like 1/3 of our bugs in one sweep

[swift tinsel]

make all finishers shadow damage

[honest basin]

i input a small wish and when a larger payout occurs its blessed

[swift tinsel]

either always or in dance

[honest basin]

get this guy on the dev team

[swift tinsel]

no then people hate me all the time

I can deal with that in relative anonymity

[honest basin]

on the dev team under an alias

[tepid trellis]

ah mb then, cant have that

[lilac stag]

our apex talent is Prism. That’s it. Delete FW. Delete Shadowsshit.

[hazy breach]

Ok its unironically responsible for 9 out of the 30 bugs on my sheet

So 1/3 was really close

[honest basin]

what if our apex talent is MORE fw and shadowed finishers

[hazy breach]

You mean what shadowblades should do?

[swift tinsel]

yeah its insane how much that screws things up

[swift tinsel]

1000000% yes

the fact that it doesn't

is

troll af

[hazy breach]

Instead of adding an extra small hit

[lilac stag]

I already have 1 foot out the door going for smokes.

[swift tinsel]

yeah the shadow % is wack

[honest basin]

LMAOOOOOO

[swift tinsel]

it should convert all damage

builders and spenders

[honest basin]

im really REALLY hoping for some good stuff in midnight bc sub is very fun rn, but it could be both fun and good with a side of being well designed and less buggy with some small changes

just keeping my copium mask on full blast till i see some talent trees

[swift tinsel]

do this and delete flag

[lilac stag]

I’m expecting nothing except outlaw gets the assa rework treatment.

[swift tinsel]

best way to smooth out cds

then make deepening 0.7

revert storm to 40 energy

[honest basin]

knowing blizz it'll be smth like making rtb a fucking finisher again or some dumb shit nobody wants

[graceful osprey]

Blizzard is going to troll us and make the apex talents all about BP

[swift tinsel]

if it makes bp do something interesting I'd entertain the idea

[lilac stag]

Ion’s nephew finally tired of RTB. It’s going away

[lucid jackal]

Its in the trailers

Multiple times

[lilac stag]

*not actual gameplay footage

or something

[honest basin]

that doesn't mean there's not time for them to do something incredibly stupid

this is blizz we're talking about

[swift tinsel]

they wait for last week of alpha for that

[lucid jackal]

Why do you guys just assume everything terrible is going to happen all the time

[honest basin]

true and real

[lilac stag]

leaving rtb in would be terrible.

[honest basin]

i dont assume anything terrible is going to happen, but i wont be surprised if something terrible happened

[swift tinsel]

that's actually the least annoying part of outlaw to me

[honest basin]

so its kinda like a haha what if but seriously please dont

[swift tinsel]

I didn't mind cycling through rtb buffs faster last season

[lilac stag]

bring back my beloved bandits guile

[swift tinsel]

crackshot is the part that I dislike the most tbh

and UHUH

[honest basin]

i dont understand why the sword wielding rogue thats about being in the thick of the fight is the one that has to play the most around vanish

weird thematics to me idk

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bongo-cat-rogue-gif-24661232

[swift tinsel]

I mean you can replace it with a button that procs a 'crackshot window' the way subterfuge does currently

I kinda look at it as ducking in and out of a fight

[honest basin]

ig thats fair idk vanish just feels like

"not it"

[swift tinsel]

imo its just the button that made the most sense to tie the gameplay loop to

[honest basin]

cant quite describe it but it feels wrong

[swift tinsel]

had dance previously

[hazy breach]

Im 10000% expecting them to rework stealth benefits in some way so outlaw and assa are more playable in solo content without accidently resetting everything

[honest basin]

well yeah probs going for not adding any additional bloat so they figured we just tie it in with stealth so that theoretically all 3 specs have something to do with stealth

[swift tinsel]

vanish isn't the most impactful ability in regular boss fights

[tranquil sorrel]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

yeah this is a huge pain point

[lilac stag]

I’m most curious what or where the apm for outlaw end up

[hazy breach]

And to make it less frustrating when you chainpull

[swift tinsel]

I think the apm should be relatively close to what it is now

[hazy breach]

Because thats so much of the complaints from the community about rogue in random reddit/forum threads

[swift tinsel]

for outlaw I get it bc its extremely punishing to lose adr

[honest basin]

maybe they'll make IC a button again

[swift tinsel]

bc your whole kit is contingent upon having really high uptime

[tranquil sorrel]

Anyone got a simple shadowcraft tracker?

WA

[swift tinsel]

and that can get trolled by tanks

sin I feel doesn't need it as much

[lilac stag]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tranquil sorrel]

That's just the sound trigger tho

[honest basin]

nah sin feeling like it needs stealth is a feel thing

[swift tinsel]

100%

2 charge vanish is bigly

[honest basin]

it feels bad to not get restealth but the real dps loss is negligible

[swift tinsel]

gives a lot of bleed spread coverage

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel first night running kui

[timid aspen]

guys ive been trying to learn sub, but its been very hard for me! i have 702 ilvl and doing 4.8 - 5m M+ overall

[swift tinsel]

its extremely basic features-wise

[lilac stag]

What else do you need?

[swift tinsel]

just be warned

[timid aspen]

no clue where im making mistakes

[honest basin]

!mistakes

[tranquil sorrel]

A visual for the stacks

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[swift tinsel]

for raid its fantastic though

like no cpu drain

Imma use kai for heal keys only I think

bc I'm not watching as hard for the same things I do as melee dps

I made a more informative focus cast/kick WA setup to make up for the parts kai doesn't have

[lilac stag]

Forge should be a good test

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah

soulbinder too to a degree

do you run elvui

[lilac stag]

Fuck no

[swift tinsel]

good man

I laugh at my guildmates who do and complain of frame drops

it can do so much but the tax is real

[honest basin]

i cant stand elvui

i am a base ui enjoyer now

[swift tinsel]

the really nice thing with kai is the secondary target alpha setting

makes visual clutter more manageable, and you can set certain debuffs like rupture etc to have 100% alpha so you can see them easier on multiple bars

[swift tinsel]

I use base ui for as much as I can

made a mini addon to remove my cp though since you can't do that in base ui

surprisingly very, very easy to do if you have a script to hide them

[honest basin]

i just cant stand addons and like clutter in general

[lilac stag]

I use suf for unit frames

[honest basin]

my screen already feels so cluttered just with "necessary" things like class wa/trackers for debuffs and such like ugh. So much unnecessary stuff in this game

[swift tinsel]

I'm using cell atm

used suf for a long time though, very good frame addon

[tepid trellis]

fix

[swift tinsel]

I need to do something with my old flawless form aura

[timid aspen]

what set o WAs is that?

[lilac stag]

my edit of LE

[swift tinsel]

idk why I still have tick on energy bar

also tfd border not showing atm

but thats usually there

[tepid trellis]

this is the real shit

[swift tinsel]

green on sectech is cb with circular texture while its cooling down

[signal heath]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

purple energy, a vibe

[tepid trellis]

full screened to not be cropped weirdly

[swift tinsel]

is the dance icon tfd or what

below eb

[tepid trellis]

yeh

[swift tinsel]

ah

[tepid trellis]

just a screenshot after saladbar died

[swift tinsel]

does it linger the whole time you have the buff?

[tepid trellis]

in combat

it just shows that buff if the buff is up

and a count down before the buff gets applied

[swift tinsel]

ah I went with a border recolor and circular texture for buff timer

one fewer icon to look at ig

[echo moat]

Hello, wanting to learn how to become a better raider and it seems like learning cd usage is where i am falling short, what sources do you guys use to work on cd usage or do you guys just adjust every pull?

[hazy breach]

Lorrgs.io shows the top logs usage in very easy to digest way would recommend to look at that

But if youre asking specifically about not having enough dances/symbols for your blades window you probably should be holding off on using them inbetween dances more, roughly at ~30s left of flags cooldown

[lusty acorn]

even if you are about to get your 2nd charge of sd? if it happens i should just send it and hope i get it back right?

[still depot]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

If you spend time in blades without dance youve fucked up

[lusty acorn]

this is one of the reasons i dont enjoy sub, holding cds is not something i enjoy since im outlaw main

[lusty acorn]

yea ik

[hazy breach]

And unless you have tight timings you probably should hold onto your flag for a bit

To make sure you can get two

[lusty acorn]

its just weird to me, even though it makes sense

[short radish]

Nah man embrace it

Let your hands rest

Stretch your fingers

[lusty acorn]

bruh

thats the only reason i hate sin

[short radish]

Gotta look after yourself homie

No one else will

[lusty acorn]

its way too low apm

[short radish]

Yeah but you have big apm when it's time to damage

And then low apm when you dont need to

[lusty acorn]

i played enough sin last tier, ill definetly not play it if sub or law are better lol

[lusty acorn]

thanks btw

ig i was not wrong

[hollow pilot]

forgive me for this dumb question. But are other people having issues with the Cold blood/Sec tech macro?

[lucid jackal]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[hollow pilot]

thank you

[junior timber]

Can we immune the hunt on mythic?

[turbid edge]

hey uhhhh this looks pretty good

[iron plover]

Do boss abilities have certain target priority?

Got targeted 3 times in a row by 2nd boss in Halls

Which is great since I can essentially immune 2 of them

[turbid edge]

what are people crafting with their 3rd spark? i have myth weapon already so dont need the offhand and i did another dagger and bracers. is belt a good option right now?

[open vortex]

Just unlucky

[iron plover]

Nah that’s hella lucky

human racial + shadow step away and you take no damage

Then cloak the 2nd one

(The DoT)

[open vortex]

In that scenario ya lucky

[iron plover]

Made me think - does it prefer to target melee

[open vortex]

Doesn’t seem like it at all

Seems just very random

[honest saddle]

Pray for bandit's guile.

[tender kraken]

Are there still boss spells that ignore Feint dr?

[steady dune]

is elusiveness actually goated over cheat death in m+?

[dusk stone]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

eh not really

unless you're playing a hyper-specfic way

cheat is much better all-around

[dusk stone]

20% flat dr on feint and 20% dr on evasion is rly good

[worldly remnant]

What triggers the CP refund in between coup? Finding it a bit hard to gauge when it happens and wasting a builder