subtlety

[serene notch]

Antenna is sim bait, hate that thing

[gaunt bluff]

a bit more than 1%

[swift tinsel]

https://wago.io/1N-_8fnRf

[dusk stone]

i mean there's nothing wrong with antenna

[left ledge]

actually tbh i can see where they're coming from

[scenic plover]

does that work for rtb?

[left ledge]

bp is pretty shit and weak

buff bp

another 11%

3 of them

3 11%

[swift tinsel]

if it doesn't innately just add load condition for outlaw

idr what I had for that

[dusk stone]

well the reason people say bp is weak because htey are doing the opener wrong

its always the reason

[left ledge]

i think its weak because it does less damage than evis in single target

buff bp

[swift tinsel]

I'm also convinced it's all in peoples heads

[dusk stone]

buff bp by 30% so i can play deathstalker pls

[swift tinsel]

bc bp is not weak

[left ledge]

you know

[swift tinsel]

unless you have like

[left ledge]

i played DS for 2 keys

[cunning notch]

buff bp by 0.1% and make it apply deathstalker mark on all targets

[swift tinsel]

6% crit

[left ledge]

and my bp did less damage than trickster bp

[dusk stone]

no its literally just that people do it wrong

they see low aoe numbers and think omg this skill is so bad

[left ledge]

how do they see low aoe numbers

they must be playing DS

[swift tinsel]

idk how you can fuck up pressing bp instead of evisc in aoe

bc that's the only difference in dance

[dusk stone]

because they do an opener 30% of the way correctly and then spam dance and symbols on CD usually is how

[prisma minnow]

Someone with sick gear how much do u sim?

[azure thicket]

i got a question, does flawless form have a cooldown? sometimes i backstab to reapply it i guess

[swift tinsel]

no cooldown

[dusk stone]

no

[swift tinsel]

just 12sec duration

[dusk stone]

the thing that applies it does

[swift tinsel]

can get refreshed by unseen blade hits

[dusk stone]

unseen blade is proc'd from stab and strike which gives 1 flawless

[swift tinsel]

or added by sectech or coup

[dusk stone]

coup also gives it if target is fazed

coups cd is restacking escalating blade

[dusk stone]

this too

[azure thicket]

is it normal for flawless form to fall off occasionally?

[swift tinsel]

yeah it'll happen occasionally

but uptime is generally high

its up in cooldowns consistently which is all that matters

[azure thicket]

ye except for the bp at 4 or more targets it felt like sub was fun

except chasing soul hunters around a bit

[swift tinsel]

ye fuck that fight

[cunning notch]

i dont really understand the numbers behind BP +4 targets being better than just evisc, it gets copied to 7 other targets for 60%

is BP uncapped ?

[dusk stone]

what precisely are you struggling to do

[swift tinsel]

soft capped

8 targets

it got buffed by 11% going into 11.2

and while nimble got blades interaction added it wasn't a large enough bump to give evisc the edge over bp

[prisma minnow]

I dont understand ive played sub for a week and it does so much aoe I feel like im doing something criminal

[swift tinsel]

it be like that

[cunning notch]

mmm

blizzaart

turn us into fire mage please

xoxoxo

[untold solar]

Looks like Rotten is taken in higher keys rn, is there a specific reason why or just better overall

[feral bluff]

how much vers are we looking for as sub

[astral axle]

sim

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/933386399279878154/991343673419763753/caption.gif

^ do not be this

just sim

[feral bluff]

bro

im asking generally

[swift tinsel]

probs 20%+

[astral axle]

the answer is to sim

[swift tinsel]

depends on your gear

[lofty cave]

u can sim and it will tell u how much vers % u need ?

[feral bluff]

thank you

[feral bluff]

no hes being a gimp

[steel jolt]

no you just don't care about stat values and you sim top gear

[swift tinsel]

^

[lucid jackal]

Any combination of vers crit and mastery

Just not haste lol

[lofty cave]

lol thats wat im sayin

[swift tinsel]

ye haste bad

if I could no-strap it I would

[feral bluff]

I know sim will tell you best gear but i have full crit mastery gear with 10% vers and want to know how much im aiming for to play sub my guy

[willow pawn]

Vers = Mastery > Crit > Haste

[lofty cave]

so if u sim and if haste give u more dps u gnna start stascking haste ?

lol

[shy beacon]

Should I craft a 2nd dagger if no myth weapon?

[lucid jackal]

Just anything that isn't haste

[hazy breach]

Just dont get haste

Its literally as simple as that

[azure thicket]

lil haste as a treat

[swift tinsel]

ew no

[lucid jackal]

When u get a lot of mastery, crit/vers will be better, when you have a lot of crit, mastery/vers will be better

[swift tinsel]

if I go back to full mastery setup I think I hit 30k

[dusk stone]

idk paying attention to higher parses is hit or miss

[lucid jackal]

It's just random how strong any stat will be as u get more and more gear

[dusk stone]

not everyone theorycrafts or pays attention to it

[lofty cave]

wat if the sim tells u haste will give u more dps will u start stacking it ?

[lucid jackal]

They won't

[astral axle]

i just dont understand why to think about it beyond do what the robot tells you for gemming/enchants/drops

[dusk stone]

the math does not support forge + prism in higher keys for overall but its common even in keys

[steel jolt]

i don't get how "sim top gear" is confusing

[swift tinsel]

idk people overthink everything

[steel jolt]

apparently

[swift tinsel]

and the gain is usually like

[lilac stag]

Odd. Math says it’s my best combo

[swift tinsel]

0.4% to switch gems at best

and the funny thing is

there's like 80 combos that give 0.4% lol

so it truly doesn't matter

[untold solar]

its same people (me) complaining they are blue parsing because someone else has 2% more vers

[lilac stag]

Keep aiming for that .5%

[hexed sluice]

Mastery is where its at

[swift tinsel]

honestly I don't get out of bed for less than .5%

[azure thicket]

also sub + nitro boots/10 but engineering might make sub more fun

[karmic harbor]

how can i make a macro that's like "if cb is talented use that, if not use bp" ?

[untold solar]

speaking of macros is it possible to macro Sblades and Prism but make it only press prism every 2nd press

[lofty cave]

is it ok to macro dance and symbols since ill always use em both toogether ?

[dusk stone]

i tried it and it is not sadly

[steel jolt]

no, just bind prism to a key

[dusk stone]

you dont always use symbols and dance together

[swift tinsel]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[cunning notch]

the 2-3 second delay after 1st dance correct ?

there it is

[swift tinsel]

you don't delay between dances

[lilac stag]

Yeah. Use the one button rotation and hope for the best.

[last gate]

1- i dont understand cold blood at all
2- i always dsync my cds like animals
3- my aoe isnt dealing dmg like BP is fake
4- dont know what to do when going a new pack without cds

[lofty cave]

or how bout if i macro flag and blades together does that work

[vale pine]

Need to replace the 3 placeholders i put but:

/cast [known:FILLNAMEINHERE] <Spell>;<Spell you want to use without the known talent>

[swift tinsel]

don't do that

[dusk stone]

2 is what causes 3

[lucid jackal]

You press cb with your second sectec in flag
Idk what Ur saying
Idk what Ur saying
Press rupture

[vale pine]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[cunning notch]

in all cases you want to shadowstrike OR have max combo points to do FLAG > RUPTURE

[lofty cave]

ye but dont u cast blades right after flag anyways ?

[lucid jackal]

No

[swift tinsel]

a few abilities later

[lucid jackal]

Do people literally not read a single guide

[cunning notch]

nono dance after flag rupture

[lucid jackal]

I swear this is the single most asked question of all time

[dusk stone]

generally you want to flag blades and 2-3 blades in your opener, then 1-2 dances / symbols for the next pack, spreading rupture is higher prio outside of CD's. Never let coup sit on CD unless you have 4p and then you sit on it 20s before major cds. Never desync your cooldowns and do the opener right, its like 85% of your damage

also read the guide

[lilac stag]

Why do you think this is on quick access

None of the guides could possibly be right or answer my unique and special question.

[dusk stone]

the answer is no, no they do not

[lucid jackal]

I get being overwhelmed with the spec off the rip but like, so often the question is like, "how do I do the opener" and the literal perfect cast sequence is the first thing u see on the rotation page of wowhead

[last gate]

i just watchde shindigg video

[cunning notch]

i'm checking some top logs on 17+ keys and those guys have like 50 to 60 ish casts give or take of Black powder and double or triple the casts of eviscerate, is this because bosses take ages and packs die fast ?

[dusk stone]

cant be overwhelmed if you never look at the page information

[lucid jackal]

I feel like this is such a random thing to look at

[lofty cave]

so wat can i macro together its jus overwhelming pressing all those buttons and key binding in a short dance window

[lilac stag]

I’m assuming someone made a YouTube short. This place is off the rails the last 12 hours.

[lucid jackal]

There is nothing u can really macro on the spec

[lofty cave]

damm

[vale pine]

you can do certain macros

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

^ e.g. this is a macro to reduce key binds

[cunning notch]

not really, i feel underwhelmed by BP and that i'm doing more good by pressing evisc / coup

[lucid jackal]

Okay

[vale pine]

it re-uses the shadow dance button for the backstab in shadow dance optimization

[lilac stag]

Nothing. Play a simpler spec if you CANT

[dusk stone]

if you aren't getting good numbers from bp something is very wrong

[lilac stag]

Or practice

Like the rest of us did

[vale pine]

coup does a lot of damage, it does more than evis tho

[lilac stag]

you ain’t gonna be perfect in 15 minutes

[vale pine]

but using evis is not that bad

like you trade off roughly 8-10% aoe to increase your prio target damage

[hazy breach]

Well you still use coup

[runic hull]

!sim

[vale pine]

which is many times not the worse thing to do

[lilac stag]

Just hit BP. Lol

[vale pine]

you will still use coup in aoe, so please don't forget that

[lilac stag]

The anti BP shenanigans are amusing.

[cunning notch]

in a 12 halls, pressed BP on 4+ targets did 144 casts

[dusk stone]

well evis is gonna be much less on big 1st pulls which is what i presume hes struggling with

[cunning notch]

but i did some mistakes ofcourse

[lofty cave]

shld i make sure find my weakness is up on the aoe mob b4 casting my opener burst dance window ?

[dusk stone]

post a log so we can look through it

[earnest talon]

how much range does nimble flurry have?

[cunning notch]

can do one sec

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[cunning notch]

i'm brainfarting often when it comes to backstab before blades

idk why

[lofty cave]

same

[cunning notch]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BTZzCQtjwdRKg97M?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=31

[hazy breach]

Then skip it

[dusk stone]

thats not going to murder your output

[cunning notch]

here log

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter much

[vale pine]

the backstab in dance becomes fairly irrelevant in aoe

[lofty cave]

dam ur nimble furry damage is high af

[vale pine]

and even in st its only a small increase

[cunning notch]

yeah but i wanna do it right

[hazy breach]

No need to get hungup on small minmaxes while youre still fucking up the basics

[azure thicket]

i think a lot of people myself included thought bp was used on 7 targets, that's on us though

[turbid edge]

why does the recommended rotation have evisc after 2nd symbols? dont u want to supercharge the sectech?

[lilac stag]

You haven’t been here since s3 or read a guide

[crystal bone]

probably because it used to be 7+

buffed bp just before season 3

[azure thicket]

ye, also pack sizes tended to be lorge at the end of s2

[vale pine]

it was, it changed this tier because of balance changes

[earnest talon]

hey new to rogue and i was asking my self how much range nimble flurry has, but count find any answers. is it just melee range? or perhaps a little bit more?

[inner sedge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

also it would make sense to assume this

because of nimble flurry target caps

[dusk stone]

you aren't saving dances for flag is the biggest thing i see

also stop doing blades wrong by like 4 seconds

[lilac stag]

Shocking that all this work was put into 3 guides, on a spec that was barely touched in s2 for m+ and people can’t be arsed to open them

[dusk stone]

you snap it into the gcd before sectec like 30ms before

[lofty cave]

so does sec tec have to be the first subercharged finisher after casting symbols or can it be the 2nd finisher with jus one blue combo point

[lilac stag]

when omg it’s hot shit in s3

[lucid jackal]

Can be first or 2nd

[hazy breach]

Its fine to have it be the second for supercharger

But if it is up you should be sending it, not delaying sectech

[cunning notch]

allright ! will do tnx for taking the time to look at it

[graceful perch]

hey guys, belt a good craft option this week?

[swift tinsel]

supercharging bp

instead of sectech

ope

[dusk stone]

yw, but yeah not having dances for flag/blades is going to murder your damage

doing opener right is the problem here

[hazy breach]

Is fine, but you should probably sim to find the best option

[dusk stone]

the overall abilities you hit is fine

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/lets-ride-nicolas-cage-gone-in60seconds-okay-gif-7806996

[dusk stone]

you stop sending dance/symbols at the 30s recharge point for flag/blades

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/ghost-rider-gif-26662774

[hazy breach]

EVERY SINGLE blades should have 2 symbols, 2 dances and 2 sectechs in it, some of yours had 0 or 1

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/jack-nicholson-yes-nod-agree-gif-16013639172351530040

[dusk stone]

people say to have 1.5 dance charges but i swear i just think its not right tbh

[vale pine]

#tc-research message

[dusk stone]

i always try to aim for 1.8 or 1.9

[swift tinsel]

it is tho

[vale pine]

^ this links to a text file you can put in top gear to add crafted gear, super easy to sim combinations

[dusk stone]

idk i hate having 2 dances for cds

16 seconds is just not it for me chief

[cunning notch]

ok ! i'll try to keep that in mind aswell

[vale pine]

1.5 dance should be enough

[lilac stag]

1.5 dance and 1.4 sod. Basically hold at 25 seconds to flag

[swift tinsel]

because you get cdr from the first dance you cast

[strange chasm]

i think you are good with 45ish seconds remaining on dance

[hazy breach]

45ish can be rough sometimes if you dont have tfd up

30 is always safe, but 40 is safe most of the time

[azure thicket]

oh okay last question i definitely asked this last season, rupture the main target only or splash it 2-3 times using replicating shadows?

[hazy breach]

Esp if youre missing shaman

[glad rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-wow-you-dont-say-michael-office-wow-michael-scott-gif-11124235989547302113

[dusk stone]

like aint no way you want less than 2 full dances for decent tank pulls

flag is 24 seconds

[cunning notch]

what do u do optimally when ur waiting for the flag blade window AND coup is ready

[swift tinsel]

backstab

[dusk stone]

the only issue is overcapping and thats solely a skill issue

[trail bison]

looking back at my logs i noticed im pressing symbols before dance for the open, is this an expected dps loss or does that not really matter?

[swift tinsel]

farm shadow techniques stacks

[lilac stag]

Just keep arguing.

[prisma minnow]

so if theres a prio target I wanna kill I obviously dont bp on 4+ targets right?

[dusk stone]

its just my perspective is all

[cunning notch]

and BP or rupture for cosmetic or

just overcap till ready

[empty plume]

I find that plenty of pulls in M+ have a significantly tankier mob that is worth focusing down over using BP
BP on 4+ is not law, when one mob has double the HP of the others around it

[lilac stag]

and the dungeon is one big encounter. You don’t want to lose dance casts over the entire dungeon. But you do you and your perspective

[swift tinsel]

if youre 20sec out from flag with coup ready you can still rupture etc until 10sec left

[cunning notch]

gotcha

[swift tinsel]

iirc bp isn't worth in st

[lilac stag]

Evis doesn’t have much of any priority.

[cunning notch]

personally

i dont like that waiting for burst windows

it looks and feels cool when ur in it

[lilac stag]

Coup and Sectech gonna bust it down

[cunning notch]

but outside

bleh

[dusk stone]

sub is waiting for burst window the spec

[acoustic matrix]

symbol dance mini burst isn't too bad tbh

[swift tinsel]

idk I like basically soloing soulbinder add spawn

or turbofucking araz

[lilac stag]

sub in keys is cycling through your CDs and CDR as quickly as possible

[azure thicket]

mouseover shadowstep macro, exploding stuff with your friend who's a tank

[acoustic matrix]

Hardest part is knowing when to go full burst vs when to tempo with mini burst and unleash full burst on next pack tbh

[dusk stone]

yeah this

[lilac stag]

you’ll never figure it out if you’re always holding

[acoustic matrix]

One thing I've noticed with Casual's logs is he flags on CD

[lilac stag]

We aren’t reliant on lust or pi. You don’t need flag up immediately on a boss

[teal prawn]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

Cd on cd

[acoustic matrix]

But idk if it's because the route is just so good or if it's because he just prefers to send agressively

[dusk stone]

he has tanks who pull around his cds

[hazy breach]

If the targets arent dead halfway through your cds

[lilac stag]

the more you sit on shit the more likely you are to miss an entire cast or two

[hazy breach]

Then you should send cds

[dusk stone]

pulls are all preplanned

[hazy breach]

in 99% of cases

[dusk stone]

what even is the breakpoint for 3 dance flag

1.7, 1.8?

[lucid jackal]

Idk

Just play it by ear

[inner sedge]

Im trying to learn sub rogue but im a bit confused about coup de grace? What is building towards this and how important is it to weave shuriken storm in between the coup finishers?

[fair anchor]

does it matter if you have a choice between PV and Deeper daggers for pathing ? both are shit ?

[hazy breach]

Deeper daggers is a decent talent

PV is unironically worth 0

[fair anchor]

cool thanks

[dusk stone]

its important to storm between coups, its where youre getting find weakness from

[lilac stag]

Most routes are press W with whatever the tank and healer feel they can handle. The aggressive cd usage should be normal across keys anyone is running.

[lofty cave]

why wld u weave shuriken storm in between coup finishers i dont understand

[inner sedge]

and what is building to having coup de grace?

[lilac stag]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

escalating blade

[lucid jackal]

This isn't why it's important lol

[delicate gulch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

tl;dr:

• You don't think about it and use it when its ready
• Don't forget to use it in aoe.
  There are optimizations to it, but for the start i would ignore them and come back to it once you are comfortable with the rest of the rotation

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah the SS weave between coup is overrated

[lofty cave]

why is it important can u explain

[acoustic matrix]

I mean do it but it's not gonna make or break your dps

[lofty cave]

i dont understand this

[inner sedge]

yeah i just did 13 dawn and trolled super hard in big pulls bc i was just spamming black powder when it was more than 4 targets. My dmg was so bad, ofc other factors aswell as i played this spec in about 5 keys.

[slate lantern]

if you're just learning the spec dont worry about this yet

[inner sedge]

i assume i should always use coup de grace when its up and stop black powdering?

[vale pine]

yes

[oblique mauve]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[hollow raptor]

oh is sub 6 or more and not 5+ like ass is?

[vale pine]

^ priority is like this

[acoustic matrix]

why is sub 6+ btw ?

[vale pine]

bp is 4+ even

^^

[lofty cave]

why does it say stop using finishers 10 sec b4 casting flag to build shadow technique combo points for cds but if im casting blades why do i need to build combo points if blades gnna give me full combo points anyways

[hollow raptor]

oh srry i meant 6+ CP

[lofty cave]

i dont get it

[hollow raptor]

cuz im used to dumping on 5 CP in ass oops

[vale pine]

because of dmage scaling and energy efficiency

[slate lantern]

cause if you get a refund it will be one less builder gcd in blades

[inner sedge]

wait so i need to evis to actually proc it?

[vale pine]

keep in mind

[acoustic matrix]

you'll know soon enough but it feels like shit to have to delay your flag because your oom and it takes forever to build your combo points

[vale pine]

that combo point spend metter for e.g. relentless strikes

which is subtleties way to get energy

[lucid jackal]

In blades you generate max cp, but you can't generate stacks of escalating blades for coups, in between the coups from the Tier set

[acoustic matrix]

but doesn't it mean that we waste a lot of CP ?

[lucid jackal]

So you use storm to fill your cp, without wasting Eb stacks

[keen patrol]

do i tkae myth belt or myth head tier?

myth belt is versa mastery stats

[vale pine]

assassiantion has energy from different sources which does not rely on combo points

[acoustic matrix]

yeah for sure

[lucid jackal]

Not really

You might waste like, 8 combo points over 10 seconds lol

[acoustic matrix]

Isn't that a lot ?

[swift tinsel]

nah

we machine gun cps in blades

so losing a handful to prep for that is absolutely worth the trade

[lucid jackal]

8 combo points to make your blades bigger? No

[acoustic matrix]

in blades you don't waste cp

you spend generate spend generate

[lucid jackal]

You build stacks of shadow technique

While Ur just afk at max cp

So it makes Ur blades stronger

8 combo points from backstab is basically nothing

[swift tinsel]

yeah you're banking 'wasted' cps for 10 sec to then get bigger burst window

[acoustic matrix]

I see

[inner sedge]

@vale pine just so i know so i can track the weakaura better. How many stacks do i need before coup de grace starts. Is it 4 procs?

[swift tinsel]

so 8 lost every 1.5mins is lost in the scope of things

[lofty cave]

how does it make ur blades stronger i dont get it

[lucid jackal]

Shadow techniques

[vale pine]

4 stacks of unseen blades = coup de grace

[lucid jackal]

Your autos store combo points which get spent on your next generate

If you sit at max cp, these just store because there's nothing to fill

[inner sedge]

thank you

[ornate lake]

So if i understand right, 10 seconds before flag/blades we just keep auto attacking and go afk?

[lucid jackal]

Backstab but yes

If coup is ready u afk 20 seconds before

Just spam backstab

[acoustic matrix]

I personally BP

[lucid jackal]

That's very bad

Don't do that

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/knife-backstab-gif-gif-9184018

[lucid jackal]

Just backstab

[vale pine]

I explained sht/shadowcraft the other day:
[> jump to the first message of the explanation <](#subtlety message)

[lucid jackal]

The entire reason u hold, is to build shadow techniques stacks

[acoustic matrix]

Aight

[turbid edge]

fuu whys the recommended rotation have evisc after 2nd symbols? forget which macro it is but it has the timeline rotation there

[lofty cave]

so im storing combo points for blades but why when blades alrdy generates max combo points per ability so why do i need to store combo points ?

[swift tinsel]

shadowcraft refunds

[lucid jackal]

Read these two talents

I'm being very genuine when i say this

Read every talent you have talented right now

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-universe-tim-and-eric-mind-blown-mind-blown-meme-mind-explosion-mind-explosion-meme-gif-18002878

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/duke-nukem-duke-nukem-forever-duke-nukem-meme-duke-nukem-not-reading-too-long-dont-read-gif-17171040675104568396

[lucid jackal]

U don't need to understand why talents are good, or why it causes us to do x rather than y

But read what your talents actually do

[acoustic matrix]

#subtlety message
Shadow Technique Personal pin

[slate lantern]

highly recommend just making a private discord server so you can copy links and such that you want to come back to

its op

[swift tinsel]

ye I do that for everything

love it

plus soundboard

[karmic harbor]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[vale pine]

you mean 2x evis? it is because you usually get a shadowcraft refund, tho it can vary pull to pull.

[karmic harbor]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends.

So if you go into 2nd dance without sectec up, that's fine?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[lucid jackal]

It'll be up eventually

[magic cliff]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[karmic harbor]

also sometimes my dance finishes and im not in the 2nd part of flag, do i still send dance?

[trail bison]

looking back at my logs i noticed im pressing symbols before dance for the open, is this an expected dps loss or does that not really matter?

[vale pine]

you cast it once its up

[swift tinsel]

you just symbols again when it has ~10sec left on its cds

[vale pine]

you dance back to back kinda so

it won't be up immidiatly in the 2nd dance many times

[karmic harbor]

even if you're not in the 2nd part of flag?

[swift tinsel]

that's fine, its technically 2 'parts' but the buff continues no matter what point it stacked at

[vale pine]

does not matter

[karmic harbor]

ohhhhh i c

tyty

[vale pine]

flagelaltion stacks count when they get applied

[swift tinsel]

the first part is the stacking part but you usually max it quickly

[vale pine]

you stack it fast enough

so you get the mastery very early already

[karmic harbor]

what's the cap on flag?

[magic cliff]

is that backstab dance tea macro a diff command

[swift tinsel]

yeah the whole 2 part thing is unnecessary

[karmic harbor]

how many finishers

[swift tinsel]

30 stacks

[acoustic matrix]

btw @vale pine , did you see the conversation about luck and parses we had this morning ?

[turbid edge]

https://imgur.com/E4KvJih

in this one, the 2nd symbols is followed by evisc instead of sec tech. is it because sec tech isnt off cd yet and u need to use more cps?

[swift tinsel]

which, in blades, happens very quickly

def before the first 12 seconds of the buff are 'over'

so you can just think of it as one 24-second buff instead of 2 12-second buffs in a trenchcoat

[karmic harbor]

yeah makes sense

[vale pine]

thats because secret technique was not ready at the time

[lilac stag]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

the cast would be evis-backstab-secret if it was ready a bit earlier

[magic cliff]

ty!

[frank cloud]

don't you want to dance -> backstab -> symbols -> sectech to get the supercharged?

[lilac stag]

Your first 2 finishers after SoD are supercharged

you want Sectech to be one of those.

[acoustic matrix]

How much of a dps loss would it be to spam cast symbols on burst windows like that ?

[lilac stag]

In the opener its first to get it on CD asap

[turbid edge]

so for the 2nd symbols in the optimal rotation, the evis and the sectech both get supercharged?

[slate lantern]

BAD

[acoustic matrix]

That's because the rank 1 on Soulbinder does that

[alpine wraith]

yea just proc more

[acoustic matrix]

And I find it very hard to understand how he can still parse rank 1 doing that

[alpine wraith]

because wow has not been a skill game for ages

we have like 5 diff procs and rng gates

[lilac stag]

Everyone can make mistakes and the game is rng high rolling more than skill expression

[alpine wraith]

and also padding

[lilac stag]

logs are not the end all be all

[swift tinsel]

yeah you can highroll 2pc procs and blow the world up

[acoustic matrix]

So I wanted fuu's opinion about how bad it was because maybe I'm overestimating it

[swift tinsel]

even with glaring mistakes

[lilac stag]

Fuck up assa non stop and get 73637383 blindside procs. Gz rank 1

[sick basin]

I mean it's never good to waste all your dmg amp CDs and get no value

[acoustic matrix]

At first I legit thought the dude was onto a secret tech we didn't know about

But everyone keeps saying there's no such a thing

[sick basin]

No prob just doesn't have the macro to stop spam cast and spammed it on the heat of the moment

[swift tinsel]

orbs are roughly every 30sec though so you can fire off sods and get one back for each canister break

[karmic harbor]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[acoustic matrix]

It causes him to have no symbol dance window for a whole 1min30 tho

[swift tinsel]

they also have an insanely fast kill time

[sick basin]

It's not intentional play

[hazy breach]

Its also just a padd boss

the best way to parse on that boss is to have your other raid members do no damage

[lofty cave]

i kinda get it now so with the stored combo points from shadow techniques it like im doing a finisher with 10 combo points instead of 7 because i have stored combo points right

[hazy breach]

Overanalyzing it is completely pointless

[swift tinsel]

yeah I hoover up all the damage from our funnelers

get a bigger peen

[hollow raptor]

both araz and soulbinder are pad bosses

[swift tinsel]

damn right they are

[vale pine]

you only care about supercharging secret

[swift tinsel]

and I will abuse this endlessly

[hollow raptor]

litearlly need to force your raiders to not do dmg to parse well on those lol

[acoustic matrix]

It opens up my eyes on parses value though. I always knew luck was a thing but not to this extent. + his mates did more damage than him so it's not that

[swift tinsel]

you can absolutely game parsing

[acoustic matrix]

Like in my eyes he's turbo trolling in this log

How luck could carry him to rank 1 is eye opening

[swift tinsel]

nothing about the fight is that hard so you can just allocate your cds to add killing and look godlike

[pliant gate]

dam is forge that bad for us :( sims keeps saying my lily better

[lofty cave]

did i understand it correctly guys ?

[slate lantern]

solo forge or with netherprism

[karmic harbor]

do you guys hold prism until burn phase on forgeweaver?

like 3:40 ish

[pliant gate]

solo forge

no prism yet

[acoustic matrix]

solo forge is horrible man

2 min cd

[slate lantern]

which means its a 3min cd trinket for us

so ya lily will poop on it

[west tide]

i want a forge mythic so badd

[pliant gate]

cant i technically do lill / forge :O

[warm marlin]

I mean I don’t know if it’s luck

[slate lantern]

the whole benefit of doing forge/netherprism is that it allows netherprism to build stacks

[limber relic]

Bro i just want a prism...ill take a normal mode at this point

[warm marlin]

I imagine most good subs are focused on prog atm and not maximizing padding on the 2nd boss of the raid

[limber relic]

Thing aint real

[warm marlin]

I know I cast on cd this week and just hit the main guy so we can finish reclear faster

[west tide]

retweet

[turbid edge]

yeah but in that rotation, you evisc after symbols and then you sectech. do they both get supercharged? wouldnt u just evisc then symbols then sectech instead?

[swift tinsel]

currently on hc dimmy and watching logs to see why ranged never switch off boss to kill adds

ragemaxxing

[slate lantern]

Ethical chad Ryldd vs virgin week 3 padder

[west tide]

did someone tell em

[warm marlin]

I mean I’ll pad eventually

[slate lantern]

you get two supercharger stacks from SoD

[west tide]

so many problems can be solved with comms and then just checkin everypull and being like yooo hit this more and say the name man

[swift tinsel]

we have most people doing below tank damage on wall adds

[warm marlin]

We also private log during prog so double no point in padding

[ornate lake]

Wow was literally auto-attack: the game in it's early days bruh

[swift tinsel]

real pain

[acoustic matrix]

I mean he doesn't do anything crazy about adds that other top logs don't do. Everyone holds for 2 minute. Yet he's shyting on them spam casting symbols lol

[west tide]

the wall adds maybe tank not positioning them next to it for cleave

[swift tinsel]

nah its 100% targeting

[pliant gate]

i just have like sigil and some other shitty trinkets like blood of the old god so i was like oh maybe forge / lily will be ok

[swift tinsel]

bc they're tanked in the lil corner

to max cleave on NS and EW adds

[vale pine]

you can use symbols already when secret is ~12 sec off cooldown.
Because your next finisher will generate enough cooldown reduction to get it off cooldown.
And you aim to empower secret technique with one of your supercharger casts

[lofty cave]

Wat u guys think about cursed stone idol trink for that fight it has aoe damage and 1.5 min trink gives hella crit for forge

[acoustic matrix]

Isn't it 1 sec per combo point spent ?

[vale pine]

yes

[swift tinsel]

this is one of the p1 adds on our side

[acoustic matrix]

how do you get it back at 14 then ?

[swift tinsel]

keep in mind we have a boomkin, feral, and frost mage

[vale pine]

i guess 11 or 12 would be more correct

7 cp finisher + 3 from supercharger + 2 sec from gcd's

[hollow raptor]

I did see someone mention just turbo holding and spamming backstab if coup is up and flag is like 20 seconds off cd

[lofty cave]

G cd wats that ?

[vale pine]

you can hold coup for up to 20 secs when flagellation comes up soon

[vale pine]

a spell causes a global cooldown

let me quick explain

so rogue global cooldown is 1 sec

[hollow raptor]

thats a lot of afking

wonderful

[swift tinsel]

nah not really

[vale pine]

if you use a spell, it means you can't use another (gcd) spell for 1 sec

[limber relic]

Typical boomy just afking

[mortal trail]

Guys, these are my stats and Raidbots tells me to craft my bracers with crit-vers instead of mastery-vers (its 0.1% diff) so that makes me think if at 99%-100% mastery u shouldnt go further or idk

[vale pine]

if you use symbol and then follow up with evis

[swift tinsel]

with energy economy outside of cds its not that much damage you're missing

[acoustic matrix]

Imagine watching the game happen for 20 whole seconds 😂

[swift tinsel]

maybe two finishers

[vale pine]

your cooldown on secret techniques advances by 1 sec from the gcd and 1 sec per cp spend

[swift tinsel]

and non-dance finishers are noodles

[vale pine]

then you need to typically build combo points again, so another global spend doing that

[slate lantern]

follow the robot

sim it in droptimizer

[vale pine]

which is how it gets to the 11-12 sec cooldownr reduction

[hollow raptor]

and then just to confirm the rule is like 2 dances outside of burst?

[vale pine]

there is no rule of 2 dances outside of burst

[hollow raptor]

oh nvmd then

[vale pine]

if you want a rough rule

[hollow raptor]

yeah a rough rule would be good

[vale pine]

you want 2 dances every flag/blades

and then 1-2 dances before the next cast

[lofty cave]

So if coup procs and flag is comin up in 20 secs u hold it and generate stored combo points right

[vale pine]

it roughly goes:
2 (during flag/blades) - dance - dance
2 (during flag/blades) - dance
-- repeat --

[lofty cave]

Guys I’m still trynna understand why tho

[hollow raptor]

i see

[vale pine]

but you have some extra leeway because you start the fight on 3 charges

[hollow raptor]

yeah i was like sometimes i try to do 2 after flag/blades and its a little rough on the timing when flag/blades are back up

[lofty cave]

Do those stored combo points get used on your first finisher the coup that ur holding for example ?

[swift tinsel]

if you have enough it allows you to sectech->coup->coup

[lofty cave]

Oh without having to shadow strike in between ?

[swift tinsel]

which sets up more burst damage bc you get 2 free EB stacks from your next two strikes

yeah

[kind narwhal]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lofty cave]

Freee eb stacks what’s that ?

[swift tinsel]

which, with The First Dance and the chance to send a second sectech in that first dance with all those flawless form stacks

is big damage

[kind narwhal]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[kind narwhal]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[swift tinsel]

escalating blade, the stacks that grant the ability to cast coup when you get to 4

[sick jolt]

Guys when should i use CB?

[swift tinsel]

but the tfd bit is only on the opener so ig less applicable if you're holding coup

unless its m+

[echo lynx]

second secrettech

[lofty cave]

How do I get stacks of EB?

[swift tinsel]

hit with Unseen Blade

[hollow raptor]

if there is downtime long enough where itll be up before burst you can use cb sec tech

[swift tinsel]

cast Sectech

[hollow raptor]

like on pylons for araz i think

thats what i was seeing ppl do

[swift tinsel]

which grants your next two backstabs/strikes a guaranteed unseen blade proc

[hollow raptor]

cuz you spend like 40 seconds on those and ur not about to hard burst them anyways

[coral bear]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[acoustic matrix]

So even in AOE if Coup de Grace is ready and flag <20 sec I do not bp and spam backstab ?

[swift tinsel]

can also get a chance to randomly reset the 20sec internal cooldown on unseen blade

via Thousand Cuts hero talent

[lofty cave]

So can u proc coup on purpose kinda

[swift tinsel]

to a degree, yeah

[lofty cave]

So the most stacks of shadow techniques I can have is 14 right

14 stored combo points

[swift tinsel]

the ways to get guaranteed UB procs are

• First strike/backstab in combat
• 2 from Disorienting Strikes from casting sectech
• Wait 20sec without casting strike/backstab

[swift tinsel]

correct

[acoustic matrix]

#subtlety message 🙏

[lofty cave]

So that’s 2 full 7 combo point finishers back to back

[swift tinsel]

yep

so if you have 7cp and 14 stacks with symbols up thats 3 finishers without any builders between them

[paper flame]

does crippling poison spread via nimble flurry?

[lofty cave]

So then I can hold my blades cd a lil right

Since I have guaranteed stored combo points

I can use blades a lil later in burst window right

[swift tinsel]

you'd send your cds with as many sht stacks as you have, don't hold cds to farm more

[lofty cave]

Like end of 1st dance

[swift tinsel]

its more of a bonus to add to your blades, not something to time your blades around

nono

you want your blades and double dance to overlap as much as possible

[warm marlin]

If it’s mass aoe you can use storm to build cp and black powder for free without spending sht (if 7 targets)

Throw in a backstab at full cp every once in a while to clear any unseen blade procs

[lofty cave]

Because unseen blades is guaranteed to proc every 20 secs right

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[lofty cave]

Every 20 sec back stab

[swift tinsel]

give or take yeah

[iron plover]

I’ve always wondered - sometimes I hold combo points for 10 seconds while autoing before CDs and still don’t get any resets

[stone flume]

anyone know why my cold blood/sec tec macro doesnt work?

[iron plover]

Is it not guaranteed or something

[sick jolt]

we use coup whenever it is proc?

[lofty cave]

So best scenario u want to enter burst window with 14 stacks of shadow technique and how many stacks of escalating blades ?

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[sick jolt]

is it matter using coup any combo point?

[stone flume]

ty

[swift tinsel]

I mean it is possible to have bad luck and generate fewer stacks before cds bc you're only getting them on 4th auto and none on 3rd

[swift tinsel]

ideal would be 14 sht stacks and coup ready at 4 stacks

but rupture might be sneaky

and eat your finisher after flag

so you can like

rupture 10sec before flag

since its what 32 sec

and flag is 24

[wheat elk]

why people are so choosy for 16s

not a single invite (

[kind narwhal]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[hollow raptor]

can someone slide me a little log review

[lofty cave]

Why will rupture be sneaky ?

[hollow raptor]

its not gunna be the best to review since its only heroic dim, but probably could use some generic pointers before we kill araz this week and soul hunters later this month

[acoustic matrix]

no raid buff no grips no bl no cr

[edgy zenith]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[half comet]

no matter if u are in blades dance no dance you want to shuriken storm between coups?

[hazy breach]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[half comet]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[half comet]

!cbbug

[vale pine]

we need nightblade back

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[vale pine]

rename ruptuer to nightblade again

[swift tinsel]

been keeping its spot warm in my WA's with the nightblade icon

[lofty cave]

U suppose to rupture right after flag right

[edgy zenith]

anyone have a disorienting strikes standalone WA?

[swift tinsel]

if it doesn't have enough duration to last your cds

[limpid sage]

all kills today have been as soon as cds came up T_T

[swift tinsel]

rip

[lofty cave]

But ir sayin rupture will be sneaky because it will use your stored combo points ?

[hollow raptor]

you do log reviews?

[half comet]

so if im reading this correctly you will just shadowstrike or backstab if u arent in blades or aoe

[vale pine]

i can take a look if i have time, but won't be before tomorrow

[west tide]

sub is very fun ❤️

[hollow raptor]

all g

[vale pine]

maybe better to just type !log and open a public review thread

so someone who has more time can take a look

[hollow raptor]

ooh forgot that was a thing

!log

[west tide]

sometimes when my flag is like 35-40 secs away i think im safe to send my shd symbols and still get owned

by like a mechanic kr something feelsbad

[lofty cave]

Instead of being able to flag dance blades symbols back stab sec tec then ur stored 14 combo u can do 1 coup and 1 evis back to back if 2nd one doesn’t proc

Right

The rupture after flag will mess up ur stored combo points and back 2 back finishers right

That’s why u say rupture will be sneaky

[warm marlin]

Rupture won’t refund you because symbols won’t be active

[hollow raptor]

this is also something i was running into

[lofty cave]

Am I understanding this correctly black powder ?

[hollow raptor]

so thats why i was confused a bit

[warm marlin]

And the backstab will have premed up

[hollow raptor]

cuz ill see flag up in 35 and im like oh i can fit a dance in there but then by the time flag is up im short a dance

[warm marlin]

Flag rupture dance symbols bs sectec/blades coup coup will work with 14 sht prepped

[hollow raptor]

or its like 40-50 secs on cd instead of 30 and ill miss the blades window for cold blood

[void hound]

[swift tinsel]

ah yeh brainfarted premed

[warm marlin]

30s is a rule of thumb. Gotta remember that if you have exactly one charge of dance at 30s and you press it, you need to farm 60s worth of cdr + the 30s of time passage. Pretty much impossible to spend 120 cp in 30s

[dusk sparrow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

Overcapping a little bit is better than sending a terrible flag with no resources or delaying flag long enough that you miss a cast

[hollow raptor]

[blissful flare]

i cannot express how much i hate rupture being bleed damage and not shadow

[hollow raptor]

yeah i was worried about overcapping dance

[lofty cave]

How many stacks of escalating blade do u need for a coup ?

[hollow raptor]

but also my adhd ass hates sitting there spamming backstab for 30 seconds

[warm marlin]

Send a raw sectec

[vale pine]

4

[warm marlin]

Only need to spend 20cp before blades

[hollow raptor]

interesting

[warm marlin]

I sometimes overcap between 2nd and 3rd flag with new tier, kind of need to think about sending dance more aggressively but it’s a bit of a sweet spot of send dance = delay flag, don’t send = overcap

[hollow raptor]

so overcapping aint so bad

[swift tinsel]

yeah I sometimes greed a sod a bit late

between 2nd and 3rd is a bit of a warzone for cds

[untold bone]

to use prism in m+, is it a must to partner it with another on use? my 2nd trinket options right now are lily and antenna. sims show m ethat prism and antenna are better. but that means ill never be able to use blades with 16-18 stacks of prism

[lofty cave]

So best case scenario entering burst window with 14 stacks of shadow techniques and 4 stacks of escalating blade which is guaranteed coup right

[half comet]

u can use blades without using prism

[slate lantern]

if you greed too much you just jump into the nearest mechanic so no one will ever know

[slate lantern]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[swift tinsel]

I'm already considering evasion on pull to keep from getting melee'd off the rip bc someone went before pull timer was done

[half comet]

@vale pine @hazy breach any sub heads can confirm my reading level is good enough to understand this

[safe grotto]

is there something wrong with the cold blood secret tecnique macro?

I cannot cast cold blood somehow

with the macro

[half comet]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[scenic ivy]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

both is fine

once you have more targets

you don't need to backstab in dance

but its not a damage loss to do so

[half comet]

i just meant in between the coups

[safe grotto]

ty

[vale pine]

you storm between coups

[remote shuttle]

Spend 120 cp in 30s just with lots of targets and tornado

[vale pine]

not backstab

[half comet]

yeah storm only in blades and 4+ target?

or everytime

[vale pine]

during blades

[lofty cave]

So it’s better to shuriken storm in dance if it’s aoe packs of mobs instead of shadow strike ?

[vale pine]

and can do also on higher target counts

[astral axle]

no

[vale pine]

you want to ensure to not waste many gcd's between coup casts

[untold bone]

is ther a way to make a macro to cast shadow blades with lily or prism only if prism has >16 stacks?

[vale pine]

also IMPORTANT, you ONLY need to storm between coups

[half comet]

okay o basically just dont ruin combo point gen to save 1 stack of coup

[astral axle]

shadowstrike in aoe

[vale pine]

if you have no cp refund

if you get cp refund

you just coup-coup

[half comet]

ye

seperate question when ur just doing a solo dance NO BLADES and u have coup and sec tec up

which one do u go in with first

[lofty cave]

That’s if u get 4 pc 2nd coup proc

[half comet]

first gcd of dance

[vale pine]

you just strike outside of blades

as mentioned, with higher targets

when you can get enough cp to coup after one ss

you can storm also without blades

[lofty cave]

Do u back stab right after shadow dance even if u have full combo points ?

[half comet]

im talking about if you have full cp and go into dance with a coup up and sec tec which would u click NON BLADES NON FLAG JUIST SOLO DANCE

[lofty cave]

I think sec tec right

Because u want sec tec to be first finisher in blades so cool down can start

[half comet]

the cd doesnt matter outside of blade time

youre just gonna use 1

[lofty cave]

Ohhh yea

[tropic horizon]

hi guys, wonder if u can help me 🙂 . when im on a mythic key when im opening in a big pack, i see some guides that say i should use shadowstrike + eviscerate, and another ones says shadowstrike and black powder, ( big packs more than 5 or so) , the same outside shadow dance, can u help me with this ? when to use black powder when to eviscerate if we are talking about big packs ? I thank u in advance

[lofty cave]

But don’t u want sec tec to be first finisher after symbols and dance

[hollow raptor]

7+ mobs for black powder

[lofty cave]

U want sec tec to have 2 blue combo points instead of 1 blue combo point right

[swift tinsel]

4

Not 7

[hollow raptor]

its four?

ive been doing it at 7

[tropic horizon]

so.. if there are more than 4, i have to always use black powder? and just eviscerate for Copu de grace?

[swift tinsel]

Pretty much

[oak grotto]

Ye

[tropic horizon]

thank u very much

[hollow raptor]

as long as it uses a blue combo point i dont think it matters

[untold bone]

is it possible to put a condition in a macro? like using prism only at 12+ stacks for example

[swift tinsel]

You can only consume one charged point per finisher

[hollow raptor]

cuz finishers cant use more than 1 super charged combo point anyways

so if you use it second, it should be fine

[vale pine]

no, you would finish first if you have finishing cp

[feral knot]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[feral knot]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[untold bone]

!talents

[feral knot]

is there wa for 2nd coup timer?

[swift tinsel]

its the same spellID as regular escalating blade

so if you track that already it will show up when the aura starts counting down

[junior light]

!log

Can anyone review my sim

[slate lantern]

thats a sim

[junior light]

sim sorry

[slate lantern]

theres nothing to review with a sim, its just used to compare gear and talents between different types of fights

[cerulean beacon]

!prekey

[pliant gate]

wait why dont we do /use 13 for macros is there a difference?

[cerulean beacon]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[slate lantern]

you can

[swift tinsel]

if you're using double on-use having them listed in order will cast the other when one is on cd

pretty sure that's why its laid out that way

[pliant gate]

hmmm wouldnt use 13 and 14 do the same

[swift tinsel]

splitting hairs

[pliant gate]

depending on order

[hazy breach]

Yes

[karmic harbor]

is there a droptimizer sim for crafted stuff that includes embelishments?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter

But if the macro says /use 13 people are gonna ask what it means

[manic salmon]

i love embellishments

they are so cool

[gray wedge]

If I'm not getting crit from a hero restabilizer is it not worth using then? If the sims work I'll see what it does for ST vs my sigil/sac + netherprism

[hollow raptor]

someone review my log

[fair stump]

What are you guys running on Brann?

[swift tinsel]

hatarang and aegis or the buff one

[limpid sage]

ya same here

dance without symbols is poo though

so I've just defaulted to not sending unless already capped and >10 seconds left till flag

[jovial kestrel]

does anybody here run shuriken tornado or is not worth it?

When I use it I can fit another secret technique into my first dance window, so it benefits from relatively high danse macabre stacks

but i see people using veiltouched and deeper daggers

does that overall provide more dps than being able to spam finishers during dance with the CP generation from tornado?

[dusk sparrow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[neon frigate]

Are interloper reinforced sandals really better at 723 than rune branded kickers at 720? Does it matter a lot?

[past storm]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hoary bloom]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[short bay]

any brotip for 3rd craft? got dagger and bracer atm. got rings and neck with quite good stats, offhand dagger only 707

[autumn sand]

Is there a WA specifically for prism?

Or idc about the stacks and just blast it with every shadowlbades whatsoever

[slate lantern]

yeah the reshii effects alone make it way better, prob better at heroic than gilded crafted boots

[slate lantern]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[autumn sand]

Should I also use it with a cold blood shadow techniques when shadow blades is on cd or just only for shadow blades?

[dense swallow]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[slate lantern]

no only in your main cd window

either using it every 1:30 along side shadow blades or saving it til full stacks for certain big pulls/damaeg amp phases

[cold ravine]

quick question
araz or lily overall ?

[wild hornet]

!backstab

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[slate lantern]

if you have netherprism probably araz, if you dont prob lily. but sim yo self

[cold ravine]

tyty

[brisk gull]

how much mastery are yall rocking?

[void hound]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1226166106880999526/1412882455773315214/image.png?ex=68b9e8d3&is=68b89753&hm=38e2692b19a07be75820a4eefa4facca57404566cacdee428a45cf34053abc90&

[brisk gull]

trying out sub from assassination, swapped some of the gear and the mastery is still crazy sitting in normal raid

[void hound]

finally i can play this spec

[slate lantern]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/933386399279878154/991343673419763753/caption.gif?ex=68b99cbe&is=68b84b3e&hm=163c4b826d6588473f6fcec023c63ed9b9a5af8e162ef084240a9e7ff3fa5931&

[radiant wraith]

chat do we use shiv

like at all

[hazy breach]

If you want to dispel enrages

[radiant wraith]

ew

okay

ty

[flat wyvern]

How good is Araz's ritual forge compare to astral antenna ? Talking Mythic versions

[versed swift]

Bout even

[south kernel]

im REALLY stomped here... when do u hold dances/secret tech for cds? roughly 20 secs before? or what?

[swift tinsel]

~30sec from flag

[south kernel]

30???

tech too?

[swift tinsel]

sectech you can send closer to 20 but only if you can guarantee it'll be ready for your cd window

otherwise you blew it

[south kernel]

and i assume its worth it to bp in this window if i have coup yea?

[swift tinsel]

so typically safer not to that close unless you're very comfy with the spec

no

[south kernel]

man i really am dogshit at this spec......

[north schooner]

it's not worth the risk if you aren't sure. You don't do much dps outside of cds

[swift tinsel]

if you have coup you sit on cp

to farm shadow techniques stacks

and only do that as well if you can guarantee your dance/sectech will be ready for flag

[south kernel]

i often greeded a dance/tech AND symbols during the 20 sec window

[north schooner]

just leave your char auto attacking and go grab a glass of choccy milk

[south kernel]

yea i get what u mean

gotta have 2 stacks

[swift tinsel]

you can go into flag with 1.5 dance and 1.6 symbols (1 charge ready and 1 with 10-12sec left on its cd)

so you don't need to be fully maxed on charges, just enough where the cp you spend during first dance will bring 2nd charge of dance off cooldown to use as soon as first dance ends

hence the 1.5

[south kernel]

yea

man i really am too fucking greedy huh

[graceful terrace]

what do i drop to run CB in keys?

[south kernel]

i do send too many dances/sec techs

and forget to pool

[south kernel]

i assume u can only drop tea for it

tho i doubt its ever worth

[versed swift]

General rule of thumb is 2 in cds 1 outside

And it'll work out

[south kernel]

1?

only 1?

[swift tinsel]

its easy to be greedy when switching from other dps specs bc they typically send whenever something comes up cd-wise

[versed swift]

Or just steal lorrgs timers for raid and run those

Thats what i do

[south kernel]

uhhhh the what?

is lorrg a person?

[swift tinsel]

https://lorrgs.io/

a very useful reference for cd timings

[south kernel]

BRO

[swift tinsel]

takes info from top logs to show when they use cooldowns in relation to boss timers

[south kernel]

HOW COME I NEVER KNEW THAT

[swift tinsel]

its pretty under the radar

[vague dragon]

Hi guys, one question Antenna Mythic + prism hero or prism hero + lilly mythic for M+ ? dont have arraz trincket sadly 🙁

[south kernel]

i bow in the face of knowledge

[swift tinsel]

as a spec that optimizes around cd windows though its a very good resource for sub

and you can import those timings directly into Method Raid Tools or Liquid Timeline Reminders

to create in-game timers

[manic salmon]

antenna and prism

with lily you would have to cast your trinkets manually

[swift tinsel]

ye hero prism beats myth lily for me any sim I've ran

[vague dragon]

i'am asking because with this setup i cant have a full prism

[south kernel]

im not that good at the game yet but holy shit just the knowledge of that

[manic salmon]

it doesnt matter that much

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah its great

I use lorrgs frequently

[south kernel]

i owe u and @versed swift one

a BIG one

[signal moth]

how are you meant to djust in pugs with cds and looking at lorgs etc for sub to actaully do any meaningful parsing lol

everything so different

[light hill]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[swift tinsel]

for raid there's often trends that appear among top logs

so they can be used as a benchmark and adjust to how your raid does things

[south kernel]

its just about understanding the logic behind button presses

if u understand why and how then u can adapt

[signal moth]

my raid does things randomly, cant plan for that lol

[south kernel]

the boss doesnt

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-neat-part-you-dont-invincible-gif-27194608

[signal moth]

yh i mean i dont know the bosses but random bl timings and stuff i guess, new to sub so dont exactly know when to do stuff or hold

[swift tinsel]

for fights where everything in on a timer and not boss hp then timers are static

[slate lantern]

bloodlust does nothing for us btw

[swift tinsel]

so adjusting is easy

ye not being tied to lust is great too

[signal moth]

so do i just rip cds?

[swift tinsel]

bc you can ignore that as a factor

[slate lantern]

depends on the fight

ads/damage amps still have you move cds around

depending

[signal moth]

i did the cyclinder one.. forgot their name

and i just sent cds cause i had no idea on timing for big add thingy

and got an 81 but if i hold.. i feel like im just sat on a cd for hours

forge now, ill just rip cds whenever lol

[swift tinsel]

flag at first add spawn and it'll be up shortly before the big add spawn so you aren't sitting on it much at all

[young fog]

sub only needs dagger for mainhand right?

[swift tinsel]

you still open with dance symbols sectech etc

[swift tinsel]

dagger main and offhand

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[swift tinsel]

ilvl doesn't really matter for offhand as well, just stats

[solid vale]

when is it safe to send naked symbols ans sec tech?

[swift tinsel]

sometimes between 2nd and 3rd flag

[vale osprey]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[grave delta]

[summer lynx]

^ is that the ideal set up for trinkets?

Or is netherprism antenna the play?

[swift tinsel]

between those three yeah

either prism+forge or prism+antenna

[summer lynx]

Is there a big % Differnce between them or nah?

[swift tinsel]

not really

[summer lynx]

kk ty

[grave delta]

What am i pickin...

[swift tinsel]

some timings favor double on-use

[vale osprey]

Hi guys, anyone able to help me with a bit of log review? I'm playing sub to a pretty bad standard this tier and don't think I'm doing anything glaringly wrong, but very clearly am. Would love to improve, my time playing assisination last tier has made me lazy to the ways of an actually hard spec.

[swift tinsel]

sigil slightly worse than antenna and you already have myth forge

so that or socket

[signal moth]

what are the rules with making sure sd/symbols are up for flag?

[grave delta]

isnt antenna annoying to play on dimensius and salhadaar

[swift tinsel]

yeah

so you play double on use there

[dusk stone]

only when we need to soothe stuff

[swift tinsel]

but if you take antenna you have option to run either

which is nice flexibility

vs a trinket you won't equip

[autumn sand]

How do you use the trinks if you got prism and forge though?

[swift tinsel]

alternate them

[autumn sand]

Both into shadowblades and prism if 18 then if not forge?

[signal moth]

!flag

[alpine wraith]

yea you just alternate them

but you do want to have a diff bind for prism

in case you hold long enough for forge to come off cd

[meager coyote]

any special items from the timewalking raid this week for any of the rogue specs? 😄

[alpine wraith]

they nerfed anything that was decent

[west tide]

next week we get increased effect of oils and enchants on our weapons

do you think this makes bubble wax worse now

or maybe that also gets buffed

[alpine wraith]

we will need to check tbh

values are kinda obscure

[native crystal]

hey guys is the unyielding netherprism good in m+?

[swift tinsel]

yes