subtlety

[dusk stone]

dont you have crafted mh?

[ember thorn]

yes, but still sims higher i dont know

[dusk stone]

whats your passive atm

[ember thorn]

sim linked

[wary gate]

Hi all, playing sub for the first time . If i want to post logs to be reviewed where can i do it? Here ?

[vale pine]

type !log and post it in the thread the bot creates for you

[wary gate]

!log

[final granite]

was hoping for boots, atleast prism some good upgrade for prog 🎉

[slow gorge]

someone has data or a video to when to cd for all hte boss raid and or/ waht to talent to use for them?

[earnest canyon]

new rogue looking at the guides. is there a reason why this opener says to ruptuer twice then do the dance/symbol rotation?
i thought you were supose to rupture during the gathering, and after flag, start the dance/symbol rotation

[valid vault]

in aoe should we be trying to use shuriken storm second builder in cds to spread FW or just let it happen naturally between 2 coup procs?

[shadow lance]

Lorrgs.io

[shadow lance]

"Optionnal" it's there for the gathering part

[vale pine]

ît is in the explenation

but with multiple targets you often have time before the pull is gathered

[shadow lance]

Let it happen naturally

[vale pine]

you can spend this time efficiently to spread rupture

[earnest canyon]

but the more combo points we use in flag, the more damage it does. so we should be using it during shadow dance/symbol since that time we gain the most cps right

using rupture during flaellation isnt a waste? or am i missing a key synergy

[shadow lance]

You missing how the spell works

Flag stack for each cp you spend but it got a maximum

Once your reach that maximum it doesn't go higher

[earnest canyon]

icic. but teh mastery part of it. shouldnt we want to use as many secret techs / evisoraties/coups during the mastery buff?

[north schooner]

if you are talking about the damage procs of flag, those do basically nothing. You don't play around that

[shadow lance]

You know, it's nearly max stack when your first evis hit

So, doesn't matter

[limpid sage]

That’s what we do yeah

[forest pond]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dSz5MGLRgv4AVAJY7dXgDc should i really go for crit vers ring?

[earnest canyon]

icic, did not know that. but just wanted to understand why we would use rupture during the flag timing, rather than before flag. seems like a waste when you can be using the mastery buff to buff another skill like evis

[shadow lance]

Because you only got 7 stack after the first rupture

[night sparrow]

Hey how passiv+prism or lily perform in m+ compared to forge+prism ?

[shadow lance]

And flag last 24 sec

[dusk stone]

passive prism better overall

[limpid sage]

you want rupture to be up during your burst windows and the more cp you spend before sending your first secret technique is wasted cooldown reduction

[night sparrow]

should have picked the mm antenna in my chest then :< already have nm prism + hm forge

[dusk stone]

there is some argument where forge scales better with gear given that it increases agi so much

but idk

[night sparrow]

alright thx

[vale pine]

crit and vers are both good stats

[earnest canyon]

i see, so the thought process is, sending the secret tech too early withouth many stacks is a little bit of a waste since the mastery stacks from flag isnt high enough

[short radish]

always pray lads

[civic tusk]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[shadow lance]

The first sect tech isn't the biggest one but yes, in aoe, you flag, rupture, storm, rupture, going into cd so your sectech hit at 23 stacks

But you won't be able to do it in st

[earnest canyon]

icic starting to see the thought process in this. is it a big damage difference if i only rupture once in aoe? or is two times an important number

[shadow lance]

Very minor

[dusk stone]

does cheapshot not show up in details
?

[shadow lance]

I think it does

[dusk stone]

its not under damage like kidney is

no way im not using it

i have cheapshot macrod to kidney to alternate when i am in stealth or not

[vernal gulch]

guys, are we supposed to have 2x dance up for every flag + blades?

[dusk stone]

yes

[tepid trellis]

ye

[vernal gulch]

ah ok got it

thanks 😄

[dusk stone]

bandit cat why i no see cheapshot in details

[dusk stone]

still only shows blind for me

not even kidney, but kidney is in details

[lusty epoch]

Yes, but you only need 1 charge + around 30 second cooldown on the second

[dusk stone]

2 is prefferable for anything meaningful as long as your not overcapping it often

[supple verge]

try under auras in details, i dont see it in my spell list either

right hand side

[grim badge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hazy breach]

@lucid jackal big oof vault here too

[lilac stag]

Already have shoulders?

[hazy breach]

Yep, and chest

[lilac stag]

Bummer

[vale pine]

F

[lilac stag]

Socket for your newly crafted bracers.

[vale pine]

i got mythic chest, so at least got an upgrade

[gaunt bluff]

got socket for wrist

💪 💪 💪

[hollow spear]

I didn't do timewalking before vault and immediately got punished

[rustic mortar]

guys i got a macro question .. i have an extra button for CB SoD and ST but it keeps using SoD sometimes twice and i dont know why

#showtooltip Cold Blood
/castsequence reset=5 Symbols of Death, Secret Technique, null
/cast Cold Blood

i even put it as sequence but it keeps taking 2x SoD at some points

[hollow spear]

not sure you are supposed to put sectec into that sequence

[dreamy badger]

is that the vers mastery belt?

[keen dome]

Vault is so bad this season. It's a psyop, has to be.

[vale crag]

Can someone please explain to me or point in the direction of when we should be using black powder? It's unclear to me whether or not we use BP on 4+ targets even if we have Flawless form active. Do we always use BP on 4+ targets or only if we don't have any flawless form stacks?

[lilac stag]

Stop overthinking.

[wild vine]

That looks an awful lot like icy veins

[wild vine]

Tbf this season im not even sure if I should be annoyed by mythic tier pieces

[karmic harbor]

oh i meant to be using bp on forgeweaver

😩

[keen dome]

True

[karmic harbor]

top log on forgeweaver not using BP... that's suspicious

[vale pine]

yep ^^

[wild vine]

Like everything is weird in a way that you only want to replace certain heroic trinkets with their mythic versions only, same for boots and weapon isnt really that big with crafted. So you are kinda left with tier pieces and rings, trinkets aside

[karmic harbor]

@vale pine is there a way i can check the dps diff if i bp or evis on aoe?

[keen dome]

Yep. It's pretty w/e. I just want Antenna and I'm happy but alas.

[karmic harbor]

i swear bp is just ass

[keen dome]

I got Myth helm so I can't complain, but I will

[vale pine]

you can put in priority_rotaiton=1 in custom apl

or in advanced sim

[upbeat cradle]

Rotaiton or rotation

[vale pine]

paste this below your /simc

priority_rotation=1```

[karmic harbor]

ty

[ornate current]

BP is a scam alwasy burst more with just evisc

[lilac stag]

It’s almost like the guides explain it clear as day

[upbeat cradle]

How big were the antennas nerfs btw ? Is it still ahead of other stats trinkets by far ?

[vale pine]

not that big

[wild vine]

But it still looks like icy veins

[vale pine]

haha

[lilac stag]

Wait where did you find this? Was it in a guide?

[karmic harbor]

#2 log has 2 casts of bp, if we extrapolate this data the more bp casts you have the lower your parse...

[vale pine]

must be photoshopped ^^

[lilac stag]

BP is not a scam

[karmic harbor]

@vale pine do you press bp on forgeweaver

[lilac stag]

Maybe AI

[vale pine]

damn, closed ai at it again

[karmic harbor]

it's fake news peddled by CHINA

[vale pine]

most of the time not

also

[lilac stag]

You’re likely not pressing it because shit dies too fast

[vale pine]

the diffrence between bp and evis in overall isn't that dramatic

its like 5% prio gain for 8-10% aoe loss

[upbeat cradle]

I don't think i've pressed BP even once in raid so far lol

[vale pine]

so pressing evis isn't that bad even if you have 4 targets if you need prio damage

[limpid sage]

That’s without accounting for adds dying leaving you with extra time in single target right?

[vale pine]

it is probably one area people overthink the ecision

[lilac stag]

Next someone is going to say the method guide has the aoe priorities as well

[karmic harbor]

im removing bp from my bars

[lilac stag]

Go back to assa

[karmic harbor]

i don't think anybody wants that

[vale pine]

not what i was saying, it def. is worth it to bp once you have higher targets

[fallow nimbus]

Press bp when you can't eviscerate because range think they need to stay in melee and trigger aoe shit everywhere

[vale pine]

but people overthink the situation

for small damage diffrences

[potent valve]

Sorry for what might be a stupid question, but if Shadow dance aint up. Do I hold flag and SB?

[hollow spear]

if you spend 1 global during your shadowblades wondering whether to bp or evis

you pissed away all the benefits you would have gotten from minxmaxing

[karmic harbor]

if you don't have close to 2 charges of shadow dance for flag/blade combo, you messed up!

[potent valve]

Tbh, Im messing up all the time

😄

Trying to learn this

[karmic harbor]

always gotta be thinking ahead

let the rhythm flow through your body

[cunning notch]

!shadowcraft

[vale pine]

#subtlety message

^ i explained sht/shadowcraft the other day

[cunning notch]

top g

[upbeat sorrel]

is dark brew any good

[cunning notch]

run dark brew goremaw bite bro i need to see it

[rain stratus]

@vale pine do you know of the top of your head how big a loss it would be not to Sstorm between coups in burst windows?

[upbeat sorrel]

https://tenor.com/view/aight-bet-aight-bet-cat-gif-25610485

[vale pine]

someone send me this mega download link, what do we think, does this sound like a virus?

[cunning notch]

tbh it SOUNDS cool like triple eviscerate big boink

[vale pine]

roughly somewhere around 1-1.5%

[cunning notch]

highly unlikely, open it

maybe there is candy inside ?

[exotic meadow]

Antenna still good to go in hc or better take ritualforge from vault?🤔 (already have prism)

[cunning notch]

or better

[upbeat sorrel]

we already lost whispyr last season but risk it for the biscuit

[cunning notch]

money ??

[rain stratus]

Okay that’s too much not to do then

[vale pine]

haha, i am not going to download/start that. I was just joking because of the random dm i got. I reported the account as compromised on the server that it shared with me and move on ^^

[upbeat cradle]

I think you can sim to be certain

[upbeat sorrel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[exotic meadow]

I mean sim whise it says ritualforge isnt good and still a lot of ppl play it double on use thats why i ask🙈

[keen dome]

impressive

[vale pine]

he def. did some art in the file name

[upbeat sorrel]

its good for the last 2 mythic bosses

[vale pine]

i didn't know the stroked out T existed

!symbols

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[keen dome]

It needs (legit) in it somewhere to be trustworthy

[slate marlin]

got a myth haste mastery dagger

[solemn creek]

How would one sim fight like forgeweaver or fight with amp

[slate marlin]

3 ilvl more on mh, 19 on oh

[solemn creek]

Got a normal antenna. On s.t its a lost.. on dungeonslice its a gain

[cold zodiac]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e5Yppsiq6YeNjLAD7mbbVS guys you think i am siming so low with my current gear ? i am missing something ?

[covert lava]

peacemaker mythic vs araz trinket hm what should i pick ?

[solemn creek]

But forgeweaver isnt at all. Alll our burst is with 4 5 add

[solemn creek]

Araz is bad

Aint no way it lose to pacemaker mythic.. but as always sim 😅

[steel zinc]

On nexus king isnt cheat death useless since you will be mind controlled? Just thought about it during mythic prog

[solemn creek]

Im curious.. did u try dying

We dont technicly die with cheat death

[steel zinc]

Well I did and cd procced and I was still mc

[hazy breach]

In p1 cheat is useless yes

[steel zinc]

yeah and later?

[hazy breach]

Not useless

[steel zinc]

We just hit on our first night add plattform

going back tomorrow

What are you playing eleem?

I think feint works on the soaks or?

Atleast I press it

[lilac stag]

What?!

total shit trinket, not S tier at all nope

https://tenor.com/view/misinformation-spreading-spreading-misinformation-online-gif-4543841945782036495

[north hound]

hello is there anywhere i can find info on sub rogue but offhand sword

[lilac stag]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[solemn creek]

Rofl.. i swear i read ara kara

[lilac stag]

mmhm

[north hound]

ty

[solemn creek]

Dont care if u dont belive me

[limber relic]

https://tenor.com/view/stay-in-school-kids-chuck-nice-startalk-go-to-school-dont-drop-out-from-school-gif-21957780

[solemn creek]

Thats what happened in my head

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/drugs-are-bad-drugs-mkay-south-park-gif-4499796

[brisk gull]

Hey we watch whyspr for assass, who do you guys usually watch for sub?

[lilac stag]

Do you have prism?

[solemn creek]

And in my defense.. ive never sern that trinket called araz... always forge

[lilac stag]

Also whyspyr

For the lulz

nothing like a good monster fueled 3 hour banger video

[remote shuttle]

Kush and alexandru

Casual too

Whyspyr yt or tw? I'll put a follow

[hollow spear]

think he has both

he's assassination only though

[chrome fern]

i'm proud of my heroic saladbar kill, but i regret what could have been if i didnt die

[remote shuttle]

Ye i like to support all rogue cc

[slate marlin]

false, he got pinned here, hes clearly a sub otp

[wary gate]

what is an optimal use of the prism? How many stacks do you usually have when you use it? I have a wa that suggests me to use it at 15

[past marlin]

just 16 flood xD

[brisk gull]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[chrome fern]

what fight is a more relevant question

[wary gate]

m+, no raid

I know is situational, of course i need to look at "next pull" or packs, it's just a general indication on how many stacks i can trigger, if 10 is ok also or it's a loss

[chrome fern]

i mean you have 2 choices, i guess save for 3 mins if you need it for a certain pull

[thin stream]

does prims reset in start of mythic +?

[wary gate]

yes it does

[kind grotto]

Interested to get peoples take on my sims from today?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2GPMuuhDLGaVcd4BU2Phtd

Question i have is around is my sim here going to effect my M+ given the change in gems/enhancts? Fairly new to simming

[remote shuttle]

Max Is 18 in 180 secs (in combat)

[chrome fern]

well since you have 1:30 cd's it's either 9/10 or 18

[limpid sage]

it makes no difference which stack count you use it, besides the obvious pooling for a bigger dmg window

[crisp pond]

!opener

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[limpid sage]

if you use pacemaker you can prob minmax and hold for whenever pacemaker procs, but donno if it's worth the mental effort

since it's gonna be aligned with your 18 stack prism every 2nd burst

[upbeat sorrel]

i tried the rotten build is it not good for like 13/14's or am i just bad

feels like less overall dam

[limpid sage]

it's pretty much even

[remote shuttle]

Respect? Norotten and finality?

[limpid sage]

people just prefer the on demand find weakness spread

[remote shuttle]

Or crit under symbols

[kind grotto]

!talents

[upbeat sorrel]

i think i misplayed a bit but basically im supposed to start with shuriken every symbols?

[remote shuttle]

Once before burst to apply fw to everything in range

If u go rotten that's a must in aoe

[upbeat sorrel]

compared to the other regular m+ build with finality and no rotten i meant

[remote shuttle]

Rotten u never check how many fw up, norotten i suggest to use something tracking how many fw are up

U nay Need maybe use not only once maybe X2 / x3 (good while tank gathering u shuriken rupture, u Will do some crits and when pack Is packed almost everything should be under fw

[tight monolith]

@vale pine doesnt really matter but think there might be a little typo with the stating of shoulders as 1 of the best 4 tier slots. just so you aware if you are the type of guy that likes it perfect🫡

[upbeat sorrel]

gotcha ty

[remote shuttle]

Alexandru (i guess he's #1 sub r.io atm) still using rotten, many other supergood subs are not

But if u are new to sub, i suggest starting with rotten (then when u feel ok with basics can change and try keep up fw "manually")

[sly shore]

psure it doesn't matter

and the talents are close enough that you can use whatever you want

[karmic harbor]

@vale pine how much better is forge instead of mythic lily for last 2?

[echo lynx]

do we play double use trinket in m+?

[remote shuttle]

Prism+forge Is solid dmg wise and give u flexible choice

Tried Lilly+sigil too but was not the same

[echo lynx]

I got antenna or weaver also 710

[echo lynx]

so you would say, stick to forge+prisma?

[snow bone]

I feel like antenna is just sim bait.

[echo lynx]

its so weird, i sim dungeon slice and antenna is always better

[echo lynx]

yah same

[fierce cedar]

what is going on with sub

why am i doing so stupidly much damage

is it bugged or something lol

[remote shuttle]

Ye Sims are lower but in plus Is like +400/500 k overall (i tried before Lilly+ring and Lilly+pacemaker and i have no antenna to test)

[hazy breach]

You can change how many of the orbs you miss

But it doesnt really change it drastically

[snow bone]

I was playing around with simming antenna and sure if you miss it 0 times it’s always gonna be better. But once you start playing with it and changing the miss chance it really does underperform.

[warm marlin]

Miss chance doesn’t know I’m goated at kiting them until burst

[snow bone]

And those orbs are janky. Sometimes the run away from you lol

[hazy breach]

It indeed does not

The fabled 4 orb burst goes crazy though @warm marlin

[warm marlin]

I swear I had 5 once in a key

I was like 51% crit

[snow bone]

You were dreaming

[warm marlin]

Antenna wouldn’t do me dirty like that

[wild vine]

Its amusing how some people are thrilled about that and people like me are just annoyed

[snow bone]

That 5th orb was getting just close enough and you go to collect it and then it steps back lol

[wild vine]

Because I dont like stuff highrolling stupidly

[hazy breach]

Well then youve picked the wrong spec bud

[warm marlin]

I hate rng but it feels mildly out playable since you can force the orbs during certain times

[remote shuttle]

Just don't like mini games trinkets... Transmitter still hurts

[warm marlin]

Getting a huge amount of orbs in burst is stupid rare anyway

[slate lantern]

COLLECT BUFF

[wild vine]

Nah spec is fine, but even more external things...

[hazy breach]

Ye and the sim isnt doing any of that

[snow bone]

It’s also a reason why pacemaker has a higher usage percentage in raid than antenna lol

[hazy breach]

Well the reason for that is because one is infinitely farmable

And one isnt

[remote shuttle]

Ye whatever u like to call It 😂

[warm marlin]

It does feel bad when I’m chasing this nexus king bozo all over the platform watching my orbs go away

Can only hit gcd -> walk over -> step boss so many times

[hazy breach]

Im still at like 15-20% miss on him

So its not that bad

[scenic plover]

how do i decide what to send cds on in m+?

[final gulch]

if i have coup & sec tec ready which do i use first? if i have a dance + symbols ready

[hazy breach]

Generally if the targets will live for all of your cds, send

[snow bone]

I have every trinket except prism lol I’m annoyed by that.

[hazy breach]

sectech

[final gulch]

ty 🫡

[scenic plover]

very hard to guess imo

[remote shuttle]

No more minigame trinkets unless Is a +3-4 % for me

[hazy breach]

Well most of your cds

Say like 250-300m hp left or so ig

in pugs probably somehting like that

[scenic plover]

we just had a end of pull in flood with like 3 contructors and 4 dogs and nobody did damage

so they were like 150mill for a minute

exaggerating but idk

i always forget to use black powder :(

if i got a coup in a big pack i use coup over black powder right`?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[dark cedar]

if I have the talent follow the blood, should I quickly apply 2 ruptures with whatever combo points if aoe situation?

[scenic plover]

what mobile game do i play when not in cds?

[tribal blade]

you swap your hero talent to trickster 😉

[tepid trellis]

or you go into assa channel and ask

either works

[warm marlin]

Enjoy the dopamine of watching your sht go up as you backstab the boss

[tepid trellis]

i personally look through my spotify playlist for the next banger

[placid elk]

i ping players who dont do mechanics well enough

[tribal blade]

not even memeing, DS is awful for sub

[placid elk]

literally raid leader spec out of cds

[scenic plover]

literal viewer

[keen dome]

yeah it owns

[tribal blade]

but serious answer, if you have that talented in keys you should have replicating talented too

so you flag>rupture and boom you have 2 ruptures out

dunno if momentum is bugged for sub like it is for sin

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure it is the 2p bricking it, so should be

[tribal blade]

ahhh gotcha

[hazy breach]

But follow the blood also doesnt work on shadowed finishers (as expected)

[tribal blade]

RIGHT i forgot about that

[dark cedar]

@tribal bladeThanks!

[tribal blade]

that's how little i pay attention to DS sub haha

[chilly falcon]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[zealous flint]

Hey guys, i know i saw somewhere in here the other day but cant find, how do we sim m+ again plz?

dungeonslice isnt for sub is it?

[rose burrow]

idk what I did to piss blizzard off

[hoary stag]

playing sub apparently

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/press-f-pay-respect-coffin-burial-gif-12855021

[rose burrow]

this game is a prison

[warm marlin]

If you really want it gotta make your own group and only invite non prism users

[rose burrow]

you might be on to smtg hold on

[vagrant fulcrum]

how much does supercharger stack to?

i find its stacks go down when trying to stack to 7 in hardmode

is there a trick to it?

[swift tinsel]

2

well, 2 at a time

[vagrant fulcrum]

ah i figured it out

[swift tinsel]

up to six

[vagrant fulcrum]

my wa is bugging

[swift tinsel]

they might not have set their aura to show more than that because having more than 2 is not a thing we do typically

[brisk raptor]

What talent gives you stacks of unseen blade guaranteed when you press ST?

[swift tinsel]

disorienting strikes

[brisk raptor]

And it gives you 2 stacks?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[scenic plover]

does black powder hit enemies around me?

[cunning notch]

did blizzard say something about how they hate Shroud ? i feel like no dungeon can really use it, only instance i know is prio the 1st couple of mobs right at the start

[slate lantern]

gave up on outlaw already

[cunning notch]

all the rest has truesight most of the time

[scenic plover]

no just practising for last 2 bosses

[mossy karma]

Shroud gives movement speed

[junior lintel]

How do i go about it if i play araz+prism in m+ and raid st?

[cunning notch]

slam it like a 3 minute trinket

[swift tinsel]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[swift tinsel]

alternate between prism and forge

[short radish]

@warm marlin soul hunters down

but had to afk so fucking much on that fight

[swift tinsel]

I'm convinced our tanks hate me on that fight

I sit on the vdh and they drag her all over gods green earth

[warm marlin]

really? How so

[junior lintel]

thanks guys

[short radish]

bro you get the soak and you just sit out in the middle of nowhere holding your dick because you have to immune

i dunno felt like i had no space to h it half the time as well

but w/e

boss is dead

[warm marlin]

I always held dance or cds for after the 3rd hunt gets assigned

[slate lantern]

isnt sub the king of middle of nowhere holding your dick

[short radish]

not when you just pressed dance

yeah im a bit of amonkey

[warm marlin]

If you structure all your dances and flags around the second the 3rd hunt goes out right into eye beam you only have to dip out to get the tank thing

[short radish]

i kinda didn't know when each dude was jumping except for voidstep

that was the only mechanic i learned

oh well

i know better for next time

[warm marlin]

onto the nexus king bloodbath

[short radish]

yuh 🙁

RL just dropped an entire word doc in prep

[leaden junco]

am i doing something wrong if i do the same damage in aoe as outlaw or sin? just did my first key as sub and i expected more

[warm marlin]

your burst windows should be higher than both the other 2, but your overall will equal out since they do more sustained

They’re all pretty similar in keys

[leaden junco]

i didn't even make it to 15 mil in gambit first pull. i failed spreading bleeds, but later on i did and nothing changed

[cursive vapor]

finally, big upgrade

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[scenic plover]

sub has to spread bleed?

[leaden junco]

wowhead says so

[hazy breach]

Yesnt

Its what you do in the downtime

[unborn lagoon]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hazy breach]

But you wouldnt bother bleeding up mobs like the small murlocs in gambit

[stiff spear]

Does it make a difference which weapon has which enchant?

[hazy breach]

Since theyre gonna die anyway

[hazy breach]

No, as long as you have a secondary stat one on either of them its fine

[leaden junco]

nah, only elites

[hazy breach]

Once the pack is gathered up just send cds

[hazy breach]

Well ye but youre likely gonna hit the small murlocs anyway

So not that much value either way

[lilac stag]

@hazy breach did you know that this was from the Icy Veins guide? There was some confusion that such information would be available.

[topaz venture]

what does that entail, just spreading ruptures?

i thought u could only have 2 up at once

[lilac stag]

hit storm spread rupture if it lives 10 seconds

Wait for CDs to come back up via CDR

[lilac stag]

Huh?

[round grotto]

hallo is the rotten ST dmmg decrease in m+ ? do we just take it for big aoe packs

[leaden junco]

so bleeds are less/not relevant with cds up?

[lilac stag]

we are a cd spec

[acoustic matrix]

Should I macro prism to SB or is it better to let it stack in M+ ?

[lilac stag]

If you’re not using them as often as possible without messing up your 90sec go, you’re doing it wrong

[midnight stratus]

youll usde every other SB

[lilac stag]

Whatever makes you happy. Prism at 18 is juiced but if you’ve got time between bosses just send at 9

or run forge with it

[acoustic matrix]

I don't have it

[lilac stag]

and save the 18

[acoustic matrix]

I have signet tho

[lilac stag]

yeah not the same

[acoustic matrix]

beggers can't be choosers lol

had to make a full int raid to loot prism

[cunning notch]

can i have some toughts on " The First Dance " talent, i mainly pug keys and they usually chain pull or pull quite fast from one to the other and we are rarely ( i think ) 6 seconds out of combat, i have between 4 and 7% uptime on it is it not better to get weaponmaster or tornado instead ?

[swift tinsel]

prism into big add spawn on soulbinder is my new dopamine fix

[rocky lava]

Does anyone know if they fixed double atrophic?

[left quail]

I was thinking the same so I picked weaponmaster for a lil bit more ST

[warm marlin]

weaponmaster is really really really bad

Especially if you’re casting shuriken storm often

[cunning notch]

Do u mind expanding why its really bad ?

cus from what i gather u dont really want to press storm that often but rather backtab since it will farm coup

[fallow nimbus]

1 use of tfd is better than wm. Get 2 uses of tfd and wm can bury itself even deeper

[warm marlin]

Low proc rate, bugged to waste sht stacks when it does proc, the extra strike doesn’t cleave so 0 aoe value, doesn’t do anything when you’re spamming storm outside of cds in aoe

[swift tinsel]

if you mean it stacking, according to realz it doesn't

[rocky lava]

yea, thats what i meant, thanks 🙏

[warm marlin]

Even in a full st raid fight getting one use of tfd is better until like 6-7 min kill timers, assuming you have 100% uptime

If you add any aoe during the extra dance time WM is horrible in comparison

[cunning notch]

allright makes sense

tnx for explaining

and master of shadows is basically useless because symbols gives us infinite energy anyway

[warm marlin]

if the extra shadowstrike cleaved and didn’t waste sht it might be an alright talent but it does not

[covert meteor]

Vanish/ meld when the adds are low enough and build up your first dance. That's what I do between pulls

[cunning notch]

so the only option is really Tornado but dropping the rotten for it

[lilac stag]

You picked wrong

[lucid jackal]

Brutal

[swift tinsel]

after experiencing double sectech tfds I'm never speccing out of it

[warm marlin]

True

[lilac stag]

use vanish if you need to get out of combat to feel good about it

[warm marlin]

I’m glad I converted last season

[cunning notch]

that shit slaps fr

[warm marlin]

Talent is fun

[lilac stag]

TFD is just blissful

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'm a big enjoyer

[lilac stag]

especially since it’s mostly consistent.

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[cunning notch]

gotta get some weakaura to show if its up

[lilac stag]

You don’t

[swift tinsel]

and in raid you can pretty reliably set up pre-disorient

[lilac stag]

Just put a border condition around dance wa

[warm marlin]

I like a timer wa to just sit in stealth for a couple more seconds

[hazy breach]

Just for reference how awful WM is in aoe. On 8 target cleave it takes 16 minutes for it to beat 4 seconds of dance from TFD

[swift tinsel]

I have a circular texture around my dance aura that shows the buff as its being gained then border blue when buff up

[hazy breach]

Thats not a typo, its not meant to be 6 minutes, the 1 is supposed to be there

[warm marlin]

stat is so funny

[swift tinsel]

true strength

lmao

[cunning notch]

how do that

[swift tinsel]

need to add a trigger to your dance aura for tfd

[lilac stag]

TFD is just a buff (aura)

[cunning notch]

like this ?

[swift tinsel]

then conditions -> aura found/active: true

border->color to whatever you want

[swift tinsel]

show trigger tab

[swift tinsel]

is Trigger 4 The First Dance

[cunning notch]

uhm

[swift tinsel]

might need to add a border under Display if you don't have borders

[wet robin]

anybody else get whacked by Araz on pull despite taunt sometimes? I'm wondering if it's proximity even in stealth. I have it happen 2-3 times last two prog nights

[swift tinsel]

it is

[cunning notch]

trigger 4 has nothing in it yet

[swift tinsel]

if you're the closest target you'll get bopped

[wet robin]

ok great, you've resolved a mistery

[swift tinsel]

ye that's pretty much exactly how mine is

[cunning notch]

so its ' name" tfd

[lilac stag]

Triggered Tab

"condition Tab"

[cunning notch]

baddabing baddaboom

its working

[swift tinsel]

kachow

[cunning notch]

thanks top g

[short radish]

https://justpaste.it/kabw6

this is the one i use

[lilac stag]

you can also track the time needed to avoid combat

[short radish]

forgot who i stole it from

[lilac stag]

i stole it from your mum

[short radish]

thats rude

[swift tinsel]

croikey

roight for tha jugulah

[lilac stag]

🐊

[short radish]

[fallow rampart]

guys can i question, its ok when i have i5-12400f and 4060ti - 30 fps in raids?

[cunning notch]

download ram

[short radish]

yeah cloudram has come out now

https://downloadmoreram.com/

get on it

also get an x3d cpu

[lilac stag]

can I has upload rams? we has extra

[mortal bane]

So I am looking at a lot of heroic logs and as an example Fractillus has a fight time of around 3m maybe a little
more. Don't you have to get to three uses of prism (so like a 5m fight) for it to be the better trinket over say Lily?

[swift tinsel]

nah it trumps lily

[fallow rampart]

what is it?

[swift tinsel]

unless your fight timers are extremely short

on-use agi is really good vs on-use mastery

[lilac stag]

i got screwed on 18 stack with our plexus kill time and our soul kill time

[warm marlin]

It’s probably similar for a 330 ish kill where you get to use a full stack

[willow spoke]

hey all! My group is pretty casual and we just run 10s with not too crazy of pulls, no extra trash with the bosses etc.. of the 3 rogue specs, what is going to perform well on standard packs / standard boss pulls? i feel like assa is just SO low on single target

[warm marlin]

Shorter lily/forge (as a 1x on use) is likely better

[swift tinsel]

if you aren't consistently pulling adds onto bosses sin will fall behind on them but their aoe is big

[lilac stag]

sub destroys bosses and can do well with good size pulls.

[swift tinsel]

sub can crank

[lilac stag]

just dont be bad at cd management

[swift tinsel]

I'm least familiar with outlaw bc its not a real spec

[warm marlin]

Outlaw is pretty good in 10s with standard pug routing

Single is a bit worse than normal but it’s gonna do very well on consistent 5-8 target standard pulls

[mortal bane]

So you saying that 1 use of prism better then 2 uses of lily? Secondly 3 uses of lily seem to still be better then 2 uses of prism. but thats just me looking at what the numbers seem to suggest.

[swift tinsel]

maybe I'll get 1h this week and give it a try

(doubt)

[fallow rampart]

can u explain about this ?

[willow spoke]

thanks for the insight guys! looks like ill be trying sub instead of outlaw, i still have my crafts ready to go

[fast fulcrum]

Quick question: if you have coup and sectech with 2 supercharged combo points do you double coup or sectech first?

[cunning notch]

no

lower ur spell desity

[carmine bluff]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

Didn’t they confirm that doesn’t help

[cunning notch]

fuck

i'm out of ideas then

[swift tinsel]

Also chad move asking for help with a weakaura then when someone asks for clarification saying no 😂

[prisma geyser]

are people really pressing eviscerate in AOE over black powder in higher mob counts? is it better?

[cunning notch]

i mean it was about FPS issues, idk lower settings or smt

[iron plover]

yea if there is one mob with significantly more health than the others

[lime verge]

Hey im kinda new to subrogue, do we still use the pinned Talents for M+?

[graceful portal]

30% crit
1% Haste
95% mastery
20% vers
Any advice for how to upgrade my stats ?

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/sim-simyoself-gif-20048910

[graceful portal]

can i sim with different stats without having to change pieces by pieces ?

[abstract oar]

MORE POLYVALENCE

[steel jolt]

you sim gear, not stats

[wheat vault]

i see a lot of rogue playing the rotten in m+, is it better ?

[steel jolt]

forget about the stats

[feral knot]

haste seems low

[swift tinsel]

if you have crafted gear/gems you can check what combination of stats would be best

but besides that

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel ok got bored. tfd out of combat bar

[swift tinsel]

nicu

[gilded ferry]

do we send evis on 5cp?

[young path]

That’s awesome!

[gilded ferry]

i got mixed messages on that

[swift tinsel]

my latest project is adding a sound trigger to stealthi's coup gcd one for resets but it's a bit of a pain in conjuction with the sht refund wa

[lilac stag]

wrong channel for 5

guides are clear as day

[swift tinsel]

trying to get it to fire when you get a refund from late hit of coup but not early hit to fire the gun sound aura

works better if it pings when you don't get a coup refund with sod up

but idk

[lilac stag]

yeah it's wonky

i swear it doesnt even know when its doing it

@gilded ferry

i love stealing guide content

[swift tinsel]

ye and the late refund threshold is close enough to the end of the gcd that most sound triggers won't register before the gcd is over anyways and making the sound effectively useless

[meager merlin]

how much does a socket improve the dps ? dont know if i should take tier legs or socket from this. i dont want any m+ rewards i will craft shoulders

[candid raven]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lilac stag]

fuck them guide writers getting clicks, amiright?

[hollow plinth]

Socket is like 0.3% dps

[lilac stag]

you can sim just the socket addition to current gear

[gilded ferry]

i constantly land on 5 combo points that is why i was wondering, because i saw ppl talking about spending in 5, cant remember where honestly

[lilac stag]

the assa channel

[gilded ferry]

makes sense

so i really have to do another strike if i land in five

thats so sad

[past storm]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[warm marlin]

My new cook is trying to get a sound to play if 7sht is reached between 0.6s and 0.9s after coup is cast

To double the time to react

[hazy breach]

That seems generous, its more like 0.1-0.2%

[warm marlin]

I don’t know if i can get it to work that way though

[hazy breach]

So yeah sockets are practically useless

[meager merlin]

so on single target what do you do after you cast your first coup and are left with no combo points to spend for 2nd one ?

[hazy breach]

Still took one though because there was nothing else

[swift tinsel]

I ran with the No-Refund Sound iteration last night and it worked okay, there were a few times it fired without sod up so idk whats up with that

[hazy breach]

Strike or backstab

[warm marlin]

I only missed it like once last night though

[vale widget]

Hmmm....

[warm marlin]

I’m locked in a bit

[vale widget]

Idk

[swift tinsel]

might have to give that approach a try

bc it sounds useful

[vale widget]

I'm lazy to sim

[lilac stag]

we're lazy to answer

[fathom adder]

is there any situation in 2 target situations where you would storm over backstab outside of dance?

[warm marlin]

M ring good, tier gloves obv good

Assuming that is the crit ring

[vale widget]

Myth raid ring is hard crit-mast

[swift tinsel]

ye alpha good

[vale widget]

Other raid ring is haste-hard mast with avoidance

[lilac stag]

shit, i just realized cursed crit ring can dump more haste lol TO THE SIM CAVE

[vale widget]

Myth dagger is not so good

But its myth dagger

[lilac stag]

so 3 ilvl over crafted with meh stats?

[vale widget]

Yep

[swift tinsel]

I forget those cursed ench exist lol

[lilac stag]

almost like you should just sim it

[swift tinsel]

if it chips away at my 800 haste its worth lol

[meager merlin]

should i craft shoulders this week if im not a raider and only m+ player ?

[lilac stag]

cooking now sir, hold please

[vale widget]

OH is loomithar hero

[lilac stag]

[vale widget]

Return to the sim cave

[open coral]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale widget]

[upbeat sorrel]

Is cursed crit the only one that eats haste

[feral knot]

take ring bro

[upbeat sorrel]

[limpid sage]

anyone know how much of our dmg is phys vs shadow?

[lilac stag]

take socket bruv

[hazy breach]

Like 50/50 or 60/40 in favour of shadow

Depends a bit

[limpid sage]

oh damn

[swift tinsel]

cursed crit is only margin for me

dang

[lilac stag]

same

fuck you haste

wait wait wait, dslice

[vestal escarp]

!forge

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/forge-blacksmiths-creating-a-weapon-gif-16530724

[vestal escarp]

moroes macro with both forge and prism is not made for double use right?

[lilac stag]

It is

just depends if you need to hold on a specific fight

[vestal escarp]

for keys

ik ik

it's just what i have

[lilac stag]

Should be fine

@swift tinsel still not significant enough. stupid blizzard

[hazy breach]

I mean it works as long as you use your flag on literal cd, but you wont do that in keys so

Prob need a seperate bind for one of them

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lilac stag]

@vestal escarp just be mindful if you're actually holding

[vestal escarp]

chat

guys

[lilac stag]

bruhs

[swift tinsel]

ye I'm keeping prism on its own bind so I can send whenever my lil rogue heart desires

[swift tinsel]

ye its 0.1% in dslice for me too

sad day

free me from this haste prison

also our havoc wanted to know why his boss damage was lower on our soulbinder kill vs his friends dh

[lilac stag]

kek 2x onuse dummy silliness

[swift tinsel]

who doesn't have a sub rogue with prism blasting the add set into oblivion

[lilac stag]

stop stealing his funnel

[swift tinsel]

and also got 2x add spawns bc their kill time was 5:15 vs our 4min

[swift tinsel]

no its mine

if we can't have it no one can

fucking love that fight

and we finallllly start mythic next thursday

[lilac stag]

this was a tragic kill time

[swift tinsel]

holy

[lilac stag]

since holding 30 at the start

[fathom adder]

could someone explain to me how that stop 10 seconds before sb to fill up your ST stacks works? do you just autoattack or backstab even at max cp due to blades proccing?

[lilac stag]

so much pain

[hazy breach]

When you auto attack you generate Sht stacks

[vale pine]

quite a bit, lilly has a lot of the stat budget in the agi so the on use effect is not that strong

[hazy breach]

If you dont use your sht stacks, you will get more of them

[swift tinsel]

also swapping to KAI for nameplates has saved me so many frames in raid

just had to redo some focus frame/bar stuff in WA's to compensate

[lilac stag]

i'm about to use KAI for raid and plater for keys

[vale pine]

will check later, thanks

[swift tinsel]

ye I think that's what I wanna do too

bc in keys theres so many useful things you can do with plater that KAI doesn't quite have

[slate marlin]

dawn 16...idk how we timed

[lilac stag]

and you dont need shit in raid for the most part

[swift tinsel]

but for raid you don't need any of that

yeah

I save like 150mb of addon memory by switching off plater

and its exceedingly rare I get frame drops in m+

so I feel comfy switching

but I def noticed a difference on soulbinder and araz last night

even nexus to a degree

[daring tusk]

anyone know why top logs aren't using BP on Araz, when you have 4+ targets?

[lilac stag]

Shits dead before you hit BP

[swift tinsel]

ye you kinda ginsu adds

just with flurry

[sour marsh]

hey guys 🙂 i got a question its simple but i dont get it ut of the guides idk why ^^ maybe im dum .....so: in AOE do i build with SS or Schuriken storn inside of dance AND i finish with evis or black powder?

[swift tinsel]

build with strike in dance, bp at 4+ targets unless you want prio damage

[daring tusk]

overlapping set def live long enough to get another finisher after sectec no?

[sour marsh]

ok so inside of dance alwayse strike

[lilac stag]

Prio dmg. You’re funny

[sour marsh]

xD

[swift tinsel]

its a fun buzzword to throw around

[left quail]

Didnt know that. Thanks for the info,cheers

[sullen hare]

From a recent fractillus kill:
Shadow: 323.57M (33.339%)
Phys: 545.34M (56.279%)
Total: 968.99M
Was this level of data necessary? No. I just wanted to show off my heroic pink parse.
Source: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1LHkmJAKC7dnbDcy?fight=39&type=damage-done&source=31

I expect m+ is more shadow damage because of BP spam

[marble comet]

what did you guys craft on your weapon .. cant decide

[swift tinsel]

can be any combo of crit/mastery/vers, the sims will tell you

[leaden brook]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[hazy breach]

Doing BPs instead of eviscerates doesnt matter that much for prio as most of the prio is unseen blade/coup anyway

[turbid edge]

What's the remaining 11%

[hazy breach]

Like not using BP is 6-7% more prio damage in an 8 target sim as an example

[sullen hare]

Poison, cosmic (which I guess half counts but doesn't move the needle too much since it would be half of 14.23M), arcane, and the blue gem color damage from embellishment

[ancient heron]

So what is "realistic" miss chance to sim Astral Antenna with?

[wet echo]

is my sim on drugs? it's not recommending the primary stat gem

[sullen hare]

Well that's just silly

[wet echo]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rms5h33htTAXDuaqjqidFY

tbf it's almost equal but i thought it would be way more impactful

[modern stump]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[slate basin]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

Depends on how good you are at picking em up but most fights 10-15%

[sand patio]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[hazy breach]

0.15% is not a high number

[daring marlin]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[wet echo]

yea but i thought the primary stat would matter more xd

[real hare]

i got seaforium myth but have Empowering crystal and netherprism myth, value to trade empowering for seaforium?

[turbid edge]

There's no need to fit the last finisher within dance window right? As long as it lands in symbols?

[swift tinsel]

dance is big so you want to fit them in that

symbols only 10% damage

[radiant wraith]

any good macros to lower buttons a bit as a sub learner?

[turbid edge]

How much does dance increase finishers by?

[swift tinsel]

dance has Dark Shadows plus however many danse stacks

[turbid edge]

Ahh ok

And danse only lasts during dance?

[swift tinsel]

yes

and doesn't carry over if you cast dance right after one ends

[sullen hare]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sullen hare]

And that's about it

[swift tinsel]

ye we're not a big macro spec

[turbid edge]

Damn sometimes I'm at full cp and dance ending in 0.01 sec and I can't tell what to do. Do I just hold to be safe and fit into next dance?

[radiant wraith]

ah tht explains it okay,trying to learn off of the wowhead guide but the buttons are intimidating

feel like i need 3 more keybinds

[swift tinsel]

if you're in flag window you can probs just hit the finisher as you cast 2nd dance

depends on what you're doing

[swift tinsel]

best thing to do is put the burst sequence abilities on comfy binds

and just rep that out until you can do it without thinking

that's 90% of the spec

[sullen hare]

F1 through F5 are free real estate if you have long fingers! Also cursed combinations like alt+~

My flag is f3 and my trinket SB macro is f1

[radiant wraith]

short fingers sadly but mmo mouse with 6 keys

[swift tinsel]

flag f3

[radiant wraith]

big cds go on z and f1 for me cuz easier to hit

[swift tinsel]

that's prime G button real estate

[sullen hare]

Shift c is my cold blood smilers

[swift tinsel]

shift+R is cb sectech wym

silly goose

[radiant wraith]

what i hv atm but still trynna organize it

yes my hotbar is weird

ignore it

dnt bodyshame it

[swift tinsel]

too late

its in my eyes

[radiant wraith]

noooooo

[quiet smelt]

how bad was the nerf to sub ?

[turbid edge]

In the "this picture" link for opener, why is 2nd symbols followed by evisc? Is it because sectech is not ready yet so u need to add another finisher to use cp for dr? I thought every finisher following symbols should be sectech

[swift tinsel]

Z and shift+F

[quiet smelt]

was away for a bit

[swift tinsel]

hmge doesn't seem bad

since you wanna press them at the same time on occasion

thats like the big one

having those two on binds that you can reliably press simultaneously

[swift tinsel]

what nerf

[radiant wraith]

yee

[quiet smelt]

thought they touched perf veins

[devout quarry]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

sanguinary

[tepid trellis]

he is a time traveler

[swift tinsel]

in MoP

[quiet smelt]

ahh

sweet

[swift tinsel]

we're feastin atm in retail

[young heart]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

honestly these aren't even bad, the ones that you'd be pressing at the same time or close are easy binds

sectech and blades on 5 and T seems cozy too

[radiant wraith]

ye!i hv stuff at reach for fast presses,stuff like ccs and defensives go on the same binds i hv on all classes

[swift tinsel]

ye that's a solid strat, sub can be a bit weirder than most bc of the way we use some of our abilities

sometimes together, sometimes not, so macros can be a bit of a hassle so its generally best to avoid them

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[radiant wraith]

atm i hv 2 macros,one for mouseover shadowstep and another for when you actually use cold blooded with secret tech

[haughty mural]

I couldn’t care less if they really touched perf veins in retail

Shit talent anyway

[swift tinsel]

^ this one saves a lil space so you don't need to find a bind for backstab in dance (assuming you have bs and strike on the same keybind in and out of dance)

I'd care if they touched pv all the way out of our tree

Inev superiority

in all things

[haughty mural]

Yeah based
They should do that

Inev

[swift tinsel]

Inev goated talent

def not because most of our tree is not goated

[haughty mural]

It’s fine

The tree like that lets us do good single target while doing good aoe in keys

[topaz venture]

can you send me the link to the tree

[lofty cave]

nice this so convenient less buttons to press ty do i copy the whole thing and paste it or just where it says cast

[topaz venture]

i wanna compare to what im playing

or just a screenshot

[swift tinsel]

just the general m+ tree

we don't have to trade st for aoe

[onyx dawn]

Just looking for a little advice on my shitty vault.

Myth boots sim highest in dungeon slice, however if you throw heroic interloper boots from Soul Hunters in there, socket from vault ( ) becomes better.

Myth Empowering Crystal slightly behind.....also fuck getting Harvesters Edict Myth in my vault

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cgoZBUBd4CmKncqMzBcj2r

[swift tinsel]

you can get very minor swings in either direction via CB vs Tea

but emphasis on minor

[swift tinsel]

are you guaranteed boots

bc it sounds like boots are the play if its that or socket

bc sockets don't add much

#subtlety message

[last gate]

i cant play in big pulls

any tip?

or trick?

like my hero deals no dmg

(first pull in floodgate for example)

[onyx dawn]

Not really guaranteed boots.
I'd have to be lucky, but feels bad taking myth boots if I was gonna replace them next week for example.
Trying to think in the long run to min / max it

[hazy breach]

If you are struggling with the aoe rotation just do the ST rotation except substitute backstab with shuriken storm outside of dance

[last gate]

IT DEALS NO DAMAGE

like BP

is like a

bait butotn

idk

[steel jolt]

maybe log your keys and ask for analysis

[azure thicket]

from the pins we use BP on 3 targets does that include soul hunters if they're close enoug h?_?

[swift tinsel]

if you're perpetually trying to anticipate your next week of random loot drops you'll drive yourself nuts

[left ledge]

this guy just say

BP do no damage

what

[swift tinsel]

bc you can get absolutely cucked

repeatedly

[onyx dawn]

I find if you spend to much time trying to rupture the mobs they are dead and you've lost all chances of catching up / wasted lust on yourself

[azure thicket]

oh fug

[last gate]

i just rupture my first mob

[left ledge]

what is a "my hero" btw

[last gate]

to get flag stack

[onyx dawn]

Actually true brother...

[swift tinsel]

its like my name is invisible

I don't do this bc its on my tax returns

or is it...

[last gate]

In big aoe

[azure thicket]

anyway back to sniffing outlaw

[west tide]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[last gate]

in cd
prio = sec tec coup -> after that we mash Shadow strike into BP

or im wrong still

[swift tinsel]

that's the gist of it

[west tide]

the aoe sdance rotation is just shadow strike into bp and then spend coup and sec tech right

[last gate]

THEN WHY TF IM NOT DEALING DAMAGE 😭

[west tide]

maybe u are missin your coup

[swift tinsel]

you're giving us no valuable information

via logs

or gameplay

so no one can tell you why

[west tide]

track ur stacks bro

[frigid ingot]

should we take shuriken tornado in m+ or not?

i see some people use it, some dont

[hazy breach]

If you want to

[cursive vapor]

i like how you guys added ..if you need to build cp's..

[hazy breach]

Doesnt help im afraid

[west tide]

i wish we can take cb in m+…

[hazy breach]

You can

[swift tinsel]

you can

[west tide]

[obtuse shard]

how do I parse Forge now when the 2nd burn is non exist anymore?

[karmic harbor]

wait for the .5 patch and parse then

[west tide]

me and the frost dk crying cause we let the adds walk in from the back

[carmine portal]

Can sum1 give me the TL:DR on when to use Prism? Only at 18 stacks?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[carmine portal]

o7

tysm

managed to bag one from a normal run so

P pleased

Also I think I saw someone talking about the updated Weakaura for when to Evis/BP, is that floating around somewhere?

I think the Wago page is outdated

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[lofty cave]

i keep missiing my coup how do i not miss it

[swift tinsel]

remember the good times you had together

[onyx dawn]

add a sound to the weakaura

[lofty cave]

and when coup proc how muchg time do i have to use it ?

b4 its gone

[hazy breach]

Infinite

[onyx dawn]

4 seconds for the tier set part

[lofty cave]

infinite ?

[west tide]

is there any point where bp does more damage to a single target then evis does

do we have any funky talents like that

[hazy breach]

Escalating blades (the stacking buff that counts up to coup) has no duration

[onyx dawn]

It lasts until you use it, then the tier set proc after using it has a 4 sec duration

[astral briar]

So i've never played subtlely rogue, and I don't know how the class works at all. how hard is the spec actually?

[swift tinsel]

not very

like any other, you need to learn how it works

[astral briar]

I keep hearing that subtlely is the hardest spec in the game

[west tide]

id say compared to other specs its somewhat harder cause its a bunch of smaller cds and ogcds

[lofty cave]

so when coup proc i can hold it for as long as i want ?

[swift tinsel]

it has an overemphasized learning curve

[west tide]

every other spec makes more sense

[swift tinsel]

you think about your cds differently than other specs

[astral briar]

so it's been kinda scaring me off, but I'm sick and tired of maining paladin so I wanted to throw myself in the deep end

[west tide]

but this one is not intuitive until u learn all the rules

[swift tinsel]

that's easier for some people than others

if you like pre-planning cooldowns to line up with boss abilities, add spawns, vuln phases etc sub is excellent for that

if you like zugzugging, not so much

[lofty cave]

sub is way harder then assa man im not doin the same amount of dps as assa simple spread bleeds

[swift tinsel]

sin is also drastically simpler

than many specs in the game

that's like saying chemistry is harder than tying your shoes

while wearing flip flops

[cursive vapor]

i hate flip flops

[lofty cave]

i swear ive seen my coup go away b4 but u guys say its infinte idk hmmm

[crimson pier]

sorry to interrupt but I have a quick question about double lens vs symbiosis ? I am a new melee so im a bit unfamiliar why i see a lot of high io rogues running it

[west tide]

the 2nd coup is not infinite

[swift tinsel]

if you have 4pc and cast coup, you have 5 seconds to cast second

[hazy breach]

Well it gets removed if you respec, start a key or pull a raid boss (ie if you had the stacks before the pull)

But it never times out

[serene notch]

I think he means the 2nd free cast

[swift tinsel]

but first never goes away

[lofty cave]

because i didnt have enough combo points so i was holding my coup and when i had enough it turned back into evis lol

[sick basin]

That was the 4pc then

[limber marten]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

and at that point, cast with as many combo points as you have

[lofty cave]

ye i got 4 pc

[swift tinsel]

before timer runs out

[serene notch]

You have 5 secs to cast the free coup

[manic island]

damn is harvester edict really that bad

[dusk stone]

we've seen a lot of ppl saying that recently

[lofty cave]

so cast it with 1 or 2 combo points if thats all i got ?

[manic island]

even the myth version is simming below my 671 house of cards

[swift tinsel]

if its that or let it run out without casting, cast with 1 or 2

[dusk stone]

you dont get to hit buttons in the wrong order and do good damage is how sub works

[sick basin]

Yes it's random and requires picking up vrs an on use easily aligned with CD trinket

[swift tinsel]

its more important to cast coup twice than miss a cast because you didn't get to 6+ cp

[manic island]

ye i was just abit suprised tbh, i thought it'd be marginally better just by having and extra 2k agi

[lofty cave]

how does subs opener rotation work can someone explain i wanna make sure im using cds and opener correctly

[swift tinsel]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[swift tinsel]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[scenic plover]

what a name

[cursive vapor]

tf is that transmog

[dusk stone]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[gaunt bluff]

does matrix restabilizer sim well?

or is it actually worse than equal ilvl seaforium

[dusk stone]

seaforium is rly strong atm

[hazy breach]

It has a 1:45 icd

So its kinda whack

[scenic plover]

for me it wasnt as good as other stuff

[gaunt bluff]

oh so its not fully random

[dusk stone]

seaforium is within like 35k of antenna at equal ilvl assuming 20% miss rate

[west tide]

dude i always forget to symbols before every pull

how much dps i lose 🤔

[dusk stone]

it isnt required

[gaunt bluff]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[west tide]

i need a wa

[dusk stone]

i actually dont like that its in there like that