subtlety

[spice matrix]

its to trick the AI into giving him netherprism

[idle sedge]

i was able to sneak my rat into a 10 and got harvest edict for my one piece of myth to choose from, is it shit enough to take tokens or just get hero tier?

[vivid cobalt]

did they ever fix that trinket cuz in season 1 it didnt work

[bleak panther]

does anyone have a breakdown from a 10(ish) key i can compare to my mosst recent? i think i have something off on my aoe

[idle sedge]

i dunno it obviously sims better than my ultra shitty current trinkets lol

but i dunno if its ok long term

[vivid cobalt]

i remember in season 1 it wouldn't proc on melee abilities but i think its supposed to

[loud nimbus]

is this a good build to run?

[vivid cobalt]

its probably a good passive trinket if it works

[brave ocean]

hi new to sub, in m+ should i be actively trying to get a rupture up on every mob in a pack?

[vivid cobalt]

if they will live full duration yes but u don't rupture during dance/burst windows

[brave ocean]

oh okay so im basically only rupturing when i have no cooldowns

[gaunt bluff]

just sim for ur char

for me shuriken storm/rotten sims almost the same

i just play what i feel comfortable on

[open glade]

so just want to confirm - we don't use araz trinket for m+, it's only for raid

[wheat elk]

fuck this game

[hazy breach]

You can use it everywhere if you want

[vivid cobalt]

seems like it could be good in m+ too

[night sparrow]

I use foerge + prism m+ feels pretty good

[open glade]

how come the wowhead guide says bis is the prism + seaforium?

[slate lantern]

bis lists are useless

[hazy breach]

Thats also a good option

[vivid cobalt]

i feel like theres too many variables in m+ to have a true bis outside of obviously busted things like prism

[swift tinsel]

Might target farm pacemaker since sigil isn’t that great in keys

[loud nimbus]

i am 605 ilv :p i doubt any sim will do any benefituls. and i took the build of wowhead

[last gate]

How bad am i gonna be if i change spec from assassin to sub?

[slate lantern]

youll prob have too much haste but its not the end of the world

[last gate]

then its skill issue

cant do more than 3 mil on raid boss

[last gate]

should i reduce it to 0?

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility >= Critical Strike >>> Haste

[slate lantern]

sub gains nothing from haste

[last gate]

DAMN

[slate lantern]

except phatty energy regen

[vivid cobalt]

at what point do mastery/vers start to dr

[last gate]

its soo bad then

waste of 5k stats

[last gate]

sub doesnt even need it tbh xd

[slate lantern]

yeah thats why we dont use haste lol

[thorn shoal]

thats sick 😄

[frigid light]

anyone has a workaround why shadowstrike is not working after doing vanish? i sometimes have to do backstab instead of shadowstrike idk why it happens

[last gate]

then im ruining dps somewhere

and idk where

[hazy breach]

Probably not doing your burst window correctly

[atomic scarab]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[last gate]

doing first boss in raid
SS flag rupture
dance symb BS shadowblades Sectec

SS Evis SS evis SS Evis (sec tec close = ) dance symb Backstab CB sectec

Its excatly what was in wow head

OR MAYBE IM DUMB ENOUGH TO NOT UDNERSTAND IT

[lucid jackal]

1 less weapon in raid pool

[last gate]

we have 2x dagger 1x fist wep and a mace

are you sure?

so its 2 x 2

[hazy breach]

If you have killed dimensius yes

[signal moth]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[grim pewter]

if u dont mind me asking (just startting to get the hang of the rotation in m+) noticed when the clip started you had find weakness already set up but you let it drop beyond the first application. Is it not that important to keep this up beyond a certain point in ur opener? Also how did you set up your first set of find weakness on all mobs before the clip starts, symbols + shuriken storm (with The Rotten talent.) I've been using The Rotten to re apply find weakness right before my 2nd sectec.

[hazy breach]

If you (like guy) have killed exactly 7 out of the 8 bosses then swapping to outlaw is a good move

[last gate]

does vault only give loot from killed bosses?

i dont think so?

[hazy breach]

It does

Out of bosses youve killed at any point during the season

[last gate]

Eh

ahhh

during the seaon not the week

got it

[hazy breach]

Sounds like youre worrying too much about find weakness

[surreal sparrow]

Funny that a 655 ring is simming better than a hero with worse stats

[last gate]

cause ring dont give you agil

its obsvious

[surreal sparrow]

Ya

But its funny

[ornate heron]

if youre using netherprism in dungeons, do you just use it everytime you use blades?

[hazy breach]

Or save it for a bigger pull, either are fine

[ornate heron]

ah ok

because its giving me that antenna is better than a myth lily

[undone heart]

when do we shiv in st

[limber relic]

Probably because its better then using lily every other CDs

[hazy breach]

When you need to dispel an enrage

[undone heart]

oh you just dont use it lmao

[last gate]

at what point you guys use nether prism?

in raids

[limber relic]

What netherprism?! /wrists

[last gate]

its not worth to use on 9 stack with shadow blades

[limber relic]

If you're using double on use it should be 1:30 & 4:30

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[gaunt bluff]

Uhh i think before the clip starts i just did a bunch of ss + ruptured

[last gate]

GOT IT lol

[gaunt bluff]

no rotten

[daring marlin]

got this from tazavesh hard mode omg poopooo game

[gaunt bluff]

also i dont track find weakness at all

idk if im suppsoed to

im not playing the spec very well yet

[shrewd lantern]

enjoy your 15 crests saved

unless you already had high ilvl trinkets

[grim pewter]

no worries! im still working on getting the hang of it myself. awesome to see people putting up insane numbers while still learning. 700 ilvl and 4 set and my bursts are still only around 14 mil on 6 ish targets. not sure if prism and a lil more ilvl is the main thing keeping me from the crazy 30-40mil bursts i keep seeing or if its rotation so I just keep drilling min maxes into my rotation lol.

[shrewd lantern]

well prism does give you like, 55k agi fully stacked

on your cds

if you choose to stack it up

[flint parrot]

guys, anyone have symbols pre-pull reminder wa?

[grim pewter]

tbh thats probably a huge reason a lot of rogues are gaping me. never like to make excuses for dps though but also trying to not drill the rotation into myself too hard 😅

[atomic scarab]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[atomic scarab]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shrewd lantern]

The thing is, if you choose to stack prism up you only have it for every other cd set

so in theory it should balance out

[atomic scarab]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[atomic scarab]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[shrewd lantern]

i will say however, prism is extremely comical in delves when i just md to bran and then just rupture packs im walking by

by the time its all grouped and gathered i have 18 stacks

[lucid jackal]

Well I h aven't killed mythic dimensius yet

[last gate]

yeah i didnt know that

[shrewd lantern]

Be the only rogue on team

2 salad and 2 loom daggers on hc since tier released

[hazy breach]

Very silly of them to put 2 daggers in the raid

[shrewd lantern]

Don't they always

[hazy breach]

Yes

But its still silly

[shrewd lantern]

2 warglaives is dumber

[hazy breach]

Its the same thing

[grim pewter]

yea I need to not compare myself to clips with high prism stacks. looking at overall dmg done for a key is probably a beter comparison. still, im sitting at 5. maybe 5.5mil peak in some keys. lower on smaller pull count runs. so I think Ive got room to improve, despite lower ilvl.

[hazy breach]

Same as bows/guns

[swift tinsel]

with sub and sin taking similar stats having 2 makes no sense

[shrewd lantern]

imo warglaives is dumber since there are other weapons dh can use

in the raid already

[hazy breach]

Even if we didnt, it doesnt really matter anyway

[shrewd lantern]

like unless blizz made every agi 1h in the raid a mace dh could already usse axe/sword

[swift tinsel]

ye

[shrewd lantern]

so warglaives are fr useless

[limber relic]

But they will have int next expac too!

[shrewd lantern]

i do find it funny most glaives in the raid are crit mast

which is a clear havoc spread

[limber relic]

So nobody else can use them still

[young roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shrewd lantern]

int dh is either gonna be so overtuned

or piss tuned

i cant see in between

[swift tinsel]

usually starts as the former

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk what they're thinking making a ranged dh

[swift tinsel]

aight time to pray for a matrix restabilizer from hero firelands cache

[shrewd lantern]

tried for that, no luck

[jagged rover]

get ready for demon hunters to pull the entire dungeon with 30 yd eye beam

[swift tinsel]

its like 2% over my sigil in st

[shrewd lantern]

hero sigil?

[grim pewter]

blizz can always yo-yo around class tuning. main thing to watch out for is any sort of new ability that might break the game. IE the way silence sigil or the buff augs had that extends cc durations by 30% broke the meta.

[swift tinsel]

nah champ sadly

[shrewd lantern]

wasnt matrix's icd like

120s

[hazy breach]

105

1:45

[shrewd lantern]

thats uh

a bit awk

[swift tinsel]

with a 30sec duration

which is wild

[hazy breach]

Its mostly just the same as pacemaker though

[smoky tide]

if we have forge weaver trinket + nether prism, can we use macro both on shadowblades, putting forgeweaver first?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[hazy breach]

Besides the timing difference ofc

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i got myth pace first week

so my passive trinket choice has been

brain off

asf

[swift tinsel]

yeah I've gotten sigil edict and so'leah lol

[shrewd lantern]

theres still merit to getting forge right

for later bosses

i imagine

[atomic scarab]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[atomic scarab]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[shrewd lantern]

i have sigil on my dh and war, its pretty good for them apparently

[vale pine]

yes, for last 2

[lavish lodge]

Looks kinda like red mage in ffxiv

[shrewd lantern]

pretty sure they made them use glaives just for spec swapping ease.

[lavish lodge]

Mostly ranged but pops in and out of melee a lot

[shrewd lantern]

But aethestically looks like they should be using scythes

watch them only make it like

15 yd range though

[swift tinsel]

said the same thing

[lavish lodge]

I’m more guessing they sit around 25-30y range

[swift tinsel]

cool concept but wasted on dh

[shrewd lantern]

all they said is mid ranged

they never specified how far tbh

[swift tinsel]

I imagine like evoker

[grim pewter]

the idea of dh with scythes speaks to my inner edgelord. 😦 wish it would be a reality.

[swift tinsel]

bc they said the same with them iirc

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah but evokers have less reason to go into melee

unless they do their onyxia rp ability

[swift tinsel]

dragons be swipin

from half court apparently

[shrewd lantern]

Do you know the number of times i've heard

"i fatfingered hover"

into raidwipe

since df launch

[swift tinsel]

seems like a weird button to fat finger

then again mine is middle mouse button

[inner bluff]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[smoky tide]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm depot]

pog 3k get

idk how much longer i can keep downplaying sub to my guild though

[left ledge]

guys

do NOT play DS sub rogue

[tall hatch]

My stats suck a bit atm... should i use maybe a mastery or versa flask instead of alchemical chaos\

[atomic scarab]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[versed crest]

Is the focus lense only better in ST or also in AoE fights? Currently running ascension - also playing assa

[vivid cobalt]

pretty sure its negligible

[swift tinsel]

it is

[brisk raptor]

is everyone still using whetstones over mana oil as sub?

[warm marlin]

mana oil sims slightly higher for me

[gilded ferry]

is there any reason to do a opener without flag?

seeing lorgs for azaz flag is like, at 18s

[hazy breach]

The damage amp is at 3:30

So you can delay your other cds by 30s without losing anything really

And on pull there are no adds, which later on there are adds

So might aswell hit adds too

[swift tinsel]

wax/whet or wax/oil are tied for me

[gilded ferry]

i see, so, its a boss specific

to line up stuff

[honest basin]

Yeah

Literally half of your boss damage comes from the amp windows so you need to make sure your shit lines up

[graceful terrace]

With Araz's Ritual forge, am I supposed to delay my CDs 30 seconds to play around the trinket? Given its 2 mins?

[hazy breach]

No

If thats your only on-use you pretend its a 3 minute cd

[pulsar hemlock]

Use on pull and then at 3min

[graceful terrace]

so reallistically im getting it every other set of CDs

[honest basin]

Yes

[graceful terrace]

I see.

wasnt sure if it would be worth playing around on shorter timings

[mystic grove]

Guys, lily on vault worth?

[pulsar hemlock]

Prob not if you raid

[honest basin]

I don't think delaying CDs is ever worth given it's about the only time you deal damage

[hazy breach]

Technically theres some fight lengths where its worth but its

[pulsar hemlock]

Are Myth BoE's dropping now or are they still BoP?

[haughty rose]

when you need only one more +10 to fill your myth track vault before EU reset and ur own key is a 7 lmao

[hazy breach]

Anything dropped after reset is tradeable

[pulsar hemlock]

[honest basin]

Me don't have enough brain cell for that

[pulsar hemlock]

Time to get out the credy

[honest basin]

Want to unga bunga NOW

[pearl swan]

!fuuu

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mortal bolt]

!sim

[pure pollen]

what does the /castsequence reset=5 thistle tea actually do?

[mortal bolt]

how to sim for m* ?

m+*

[spare quiver]

when u have 2 trinkets on use, prism and lily how do use them?

[slate lantern]

dslice is good

[vale pine]

dungeon slice

[grim pewter]

pretty sure it makes it to where you dont accidently recast thistle tee 18 times when spamming the macro (since thistle is off the gcd)

[pure pollen]

oh W

is this macro correct or should i switch around the tea and trinket? not sure if it matters or not
#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null
/use Unyielding Netherprism

[mortal bolt]

but why are a d tier trinket do more damage then a a tier trinket, my stats are 23k mastery, 20k vers and 7k crit and the sim says, the crused stone trinket do more dmg then the empowering crystal ?

[hazy breach]

You dont want prism with dance

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[pure pollen]

oh shit yeah should be plades

blades**

[vale pine]

it prevents you from using it multiple times when you spam the key

if you want the most control

you keep trinkets on seperate binds

[pure pollen]

hmm kinda new to the spec so I'll probably keep it macrod for now but thats a good shout. appreciate you

[golden totem]

do we still have a string somewhere to quickly copy all possible crafts for rogue to put in topgear raidbot ?

[vale pine]

pinned in #tc-research as always ^^

[mystic grove]

What item would you craft?

[vale pine]

#tc-research message

direct link to the message

[golden totem]

thx boss

[warm marlin]

ring or neck, maybe shoulders if you have a gloves cata coming soon

[flint sundial]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[crystal rain]

I'm sure this has been asked a morbillion times, but in m+ is it worth to run lily+prism? or is that not worth it to skip one cd set for prism?

[vale pine]

if you have no better alterative sure

the best combo of 2 on use is prism + forge

[blazing brook]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

but prism + a passive is very strong too and a good alternative

[crystal rain]

if i run prism + passive (pacemaker), in m+ is there a scenario

where i'd hold for higher stacks if i know a giga pull is coming?

or just rip it on cd

[shrewd lantern]

that's a personal choice to make

[last gate]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility >= Critical Strike >>> Haste

[last gate]

!stat

what was tha lol

[vale pine]

wha exactly do you need

mastery >= vers >= crit

avoid haste

[shrewd lantern]

This early in the season you're going to go agi>>>

[proper vortex]

one question im not sure what do to: im at a big big pull, am i using shadowstrike and eviserate as finisher?, or am i using shuriken + black powder?

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[formal thistle]

Is there a legit reason, why some high m+ players play with The Rotten? According to sims, it is weaker

[last gate]

anyone can sim me for droptimizer dungeon? CANT RUN 8 pages 😭

[last gate]

rotten you can spread find weakness instantly

with shuriken storm

idk i just started dont take me seriously

^^

[honest basin]

Likely so they can guarantee x amount of dps on x pull regardless of crit rng

If your tank pulls 40 mobs and you have 50% crit chance, you fw 20 that's good DPS, but if you fw all 40, suddenly you're doing double the damage(exaggeration but the point)

[maiden slate]

Hello, are there macros in subtlety with the different bursts with all the CDs, secondary burst?

[last gate]

why not building crit on sub? what devalues crit on sub?

[honest basin]

I don't play rotten bc I don't like it, stinky talent

[vestal fog]

Can i cloak and shadows the mailman bombs in taza hardmode?

[hazy breach]

Which is also not true because everything is hardcapped at 20

[vestal fog]

to avoid root

[last gate]

sub is not a macro based class

play ret pala

[honest basin]

What a fucked up day

[hazy breach]

Or well, the total damage is

[honest basin]

Then idk why they play rotten maybe they just like the stinky talent

[hazy breach]

Has been since wod

[hollow compass]

So, i got a myth 723 netherprism today. i have myth 723 pacemaker and 710 lily. you think i should wear double on use or just run the pacemaker and prism? not sure if its good to do the strat where you alternate trinkets unless its ritual forge and netherprism. thanks!

[hazy breach]

Before that it was 10

[shrewd lantern]

no you

[solid vale]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[shrewd lantern]

[honest basin]

Rotten SUCK

:3

[blazing brook]

hey subs 2 quick questions

when do you go tea and when do you go cb

[velvet nova]

easy, i never go tea

[shrewd lantern]

real

fuck tea

You mostly play it to get vigor tbh

[blazing brook]

and second, isnt it better to use shuriken storm instead of backstab for danse macabre stack in aoe?

[shrewd lantern]

the tea is just a bonus

[honest basin]

Always go cb never go tea here

[shrewd lantern]

cb prism gamers

big booms

[ripe smelt]

wats cb

[honest basin]

Tea doesn't make really big funny number

[shrewd lantern]

coldblood

[honest basin]

Cb DOES make really big funny number

[shrewd lantern]

the shit that makes your second secret tech do a real funny number

[honest basin]

Therefore my feelycraft is cb always > tea

[ripe smelt]

ppl run cb in m+? or u talking raid?

[honest basin]

Real tea haters always run cb

[blazing brook]

im mostly talking m+

[honest basin]

Tbh I just run my raid build in m+ 🤷

[shrewd lantern]

yeah cb gives you fatty bursts

[honest basin]

Who cares

[velvet nova]

i need anti dust but anti tea

[honest basin]

Gonna gap everyone by a Milly or 2 anyways

[shrewd lantern]

if i wanted more aoe i'd just play sin

[blazing brook]

I will go back to outlaw probaby anyway but might as well try something "new"

for a while

[shrewd lantern]

nothing like busting a nut on a boss for 15m in opener

[alpine wraith]

lilly is not a good double on use use prism and pacemaker

[blazing brook]

. back to my second question

it makes sense to me if im also specced into the rotten

[hazy breach]

Before this tier it used to yes

But now with the tier bonus the trickster bonuses are so strong that you lose a lot by not advancing your coup stacks

[ripe smelt]

prism and ritual forge bis tho

[shrewd lantern]

if it aint worth to storm for fw spread why the helly am i playing rotten

come to think

[dusk stone]

is topgear broken atm?

[blazing brook]

makes sense

thanks bros

[lunar widget]

hi all - sure answer is out there but couldnt find it. Cb/ST macro doesnt seem to work?

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[shrewd lantern]

you played fb sin

blizz cant afford more interns for their indie game

[blazing brook]

yea i might have to swap that talent out

[shrewd lantern]

sorry cuh

[dusk stone]

tea for keys cb for raid pmuch, tea is like 1% better in aoe in m+ i personally don't like cb in keys because you run out of energy in your cds sometimes

[pastel rampart]

rupturing 42 mobs exactly

[alpine wraith]

big tornado rupture x4

infinite dps

[dusk stone]

so topgear is broken and wont sim

[blazing brook]

havent had a problem with energy in cds tho, but i also hate tea soo

[dusk stone]

mythic chest or mythic lily or heroic logic gate alpha

[dusk stone]

you dont notice it unless you've ran tea before. The reason being is you really need improved shadow techniques like the raid build, but you can't really take it

[warped gust]

should i always be spamming black powder ?

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[warped gust]

tyty

[ember hound]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fiery rampart]

dead vault for me

lmao

taking socket

[dusk stone]

mythic chest for me

[warped gust]

what is dawn embelish on raidbots ?

[ripe smelt]

is only way to trigger flawless form through using coup de grace?

[hazy breach]

No

[vale pine]

it procs from unseen blade, so you need to use backstab or shadowstrike

[grim pewter]

rotten I think just means you 1, never go into your first dance with full combo points, 2, always press shuriken storm immediately after your symbols, then proceed with 1st sectec into cds as usual. also your second sectec you'd want to repeat this to refresh your FW. this is just my own personal preference in the rotation.

[ripe smelt]

okay so practically passively procs right?

[vale pine]

kind of yes, you just want to know if flawless form is up for your decision making

[ripe smelt]

to only use shadow blades cds inside of ff window?

[dusk stone]

not really, the main place you are proc fishing for FW is between coups

[vale pine]

to know when nimble flurry is active

[turbid apex]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```

[turbid apex]

do you pay attention to not go under 30 energy out of burst to keep tea stack for SD ShD etc?

[vivid cobalt]

do the second two hits of secret tech get dance buff if you press secret tech with 1 second on dance left

[dusk stone]

nah its not worth

macro tea to shadow dance and call it a day

[grim pewter]

we're talking about find weakness right? Just asking for clarification since you reffered to it as a "proc." where as FW is coming from crits, which symbols is giving u a guarantee crit on your next shuriken storm.

[dusk stone]

yes

you just dont want to waste a gcd is all

[grim pewter]

does that mean 1, find weakness just isnt that valuable of a debuff to concern yourself with during burst? or 2, its getting applied from something else? if 2, what is the something else that is applying it?

[dusk stone]

ideally you have coup going into 2nd dance so it'd be stab (if not enough cp) -> symbols -> sectec -> coup -> symbols buffed storm -> coup, or something like that

i think its hard to guaruntee but idk

can just storm instead of stab before 2nd dance and its fine

the thing is, you have find weakness from the gather and then also maybe have it from the storm inbetween coups from your first shadow dance window but it is unreliable. You are essentially gambling 50/50's

[turbid apex]

btw if i get CP betweem pack and can re-stealth, i go for shadow strike right?

seems too good to pass up

[dusk stone]

you mean stealth

[viral raft]

How big is shuriken storming after ur first coup instead of shadow striking on tier set ?

[idle sedge]

in m+ i guess am i supposed to be cyclying through people shadowstriking to get unsean blades? black powder in 4+ targets and eviserate when i get coup de grace?

[dusk stone]

pretty big

[grim pewter]

I guess the thing is thats confusing me, other than just praying for crits (and we have veryy low crit naturally) where are we getting find weakness applications? it says "your stealth abilities" apply them 100% of the time, however our "cleaved" shadowstrikes do not apply findweakness. so unless we're spamming tab with shadowstrike spam, what is applying it at all during our gather / cds?

[dusk stone]

whats the purpose of cycling shadow strike between mobs?

[vivid cobalt]

anyone have a good shadowcraft WA

[idle sedge]

to make sure you get 4+ unsean blades asap i guess?

[vivid cobalt]

neck

[idle sedge]

to get fast coup de graces lol i dunno im figuring it all out still

[dusk stone]

good question,. so our shuriken storm has very high crit rate of around 50%. You aren't rly trying to spread FW through shadowstrike but you can. The thing is you lose your prio trying to do this

we're storming between coups and we're storming before / inbetween CD's so we're doing it quite a bit naturally

[kind wasp]

Is there a reason not to macro shadow dance and symbols of death?

[dusk stone]

yes

you need to be able to press them seperately as well

[viral raft]

Isn’t symbols always with dance tho

?

[dusk stone]

no

[kind wasp]

When is it not?

[swift tinsel]

often but not always

[dusk stone]

sometimes it is sometimes its not

[grim pewter]

ah that makes sense, so the globals "during the gather" are often shuriken + rupture, 1 because rupture is our most effecient finisher, but also because it serves a dual purpose of getting FW rolling by hitting shuriken.

so in that case, say a pull that has 0 gather and is just a straight plant and go, first pull in dawnbreaker. you're going to get 2 or 3shurikens in your set up, enough to get 4 ruptures out, maybe 6, and call it a day? however many mobs got FW, it is what it is. time to go pew pew?

[swift tinsel]

you don't with your 2nd dance in blades

[viral raft]

Don’t we want every sec tec super charged?

[swift tinsel]

yes

[dusk stone]

FW lasts for 10 seconds as well, so if you get it between coups in your 1st shadowdance you now have at minimum 20 seconds of FW and our CD's last about 24 seconds

[swift tinsel]

there are times you send a naked sectech but those are not very often

so 95-99% of the time you charge it

[viral raft]

Ok and every sec tec is also dance mcrabe

[jagged rover]

its usually when you know you can get sectec back for cds but don't have extra symbols, so you just send it naked

[swift tinsel]

we don't really worry about danse macabre

[dusk stone]

^

[swift tinsel]

its just extra damage for the most part

[kind wasp]

Thanks for the explanation

[idle sedge]

isnt extra damage like the whole point?

[jagged rover]

the only thing to do with danse is hit backstab after shadow dance. other than that never think about it

[viral raft]

Ah so ur usually in a dance already tho right?

[swift tinsel]

nope

[grim pewter]

so this might be other other piece of the puzzle im missing, since im noticing you emphasize coups. are they doing something to apply FW?

[dusk stone]

no its just strike stab and storm for FW

[swift tinsel]

its when you can guarantee you'll have sectech for flag, but by sending sod/dance you won't have them for 2x in flag

so you just send sectech by itself. its something you'll get a feel for later

[gilded ferry]

what is the macro for stab

anyone has the !

[swift tinsel]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[jagged rover]

not always, you'll get sectec back but won't be able to generate enough cdr for the dances you need for your cds. Most of the time its safer to just sit with the sectec off cd, but sometimes with full uptime you can send it by itself and have it back in time for your cds

[gilded ferry]

ty

[lunar crystal]

is tea on the gcd?

[dusk stone]

the thing about FW is not only does it bypass 30% of physical armor (phys is lower amount of our overall dmg) you also get a 30% buff from shadowed finishers that would be why. Eleem explained the reason FW isn't as important is we're doing it (black powder) about half as much this tier because 4p

[jagged rover]

or in situations where you are delaying slightly (like araz damage amp), I send 2 sectecs into collectors in intermission but need to save the dances for the amp burn

[swift tinsel]

its becuse you're black powdering less

[viral raft]

Got it

I’m actually on that boss rn

[vivid cobalt]

you can only get a second secret tech off in first dance right

[viral raft]

And our dmg was low on tge collectors

I’m not doing anything to them

[swift tinsel]

yes but not always

[gilded ferry]

is there any case we send sectec raw?

[brisk raptor]

does netherprism sim correctly?

[dusk stone]

your job isnt to dps the collectors on araz

you job is to kill the boss and adds

[swift tinsel]

#subtlety message

[swift tinsel]

yes

[west tide]

guys would u pass on a heroic netherprism for a chance at a mythic one

[swift tinsel]

if the hero is guaranteed I'd take it

[jagged rover]

I think I did like 120 mil total to collectors on our kill, but topped boss damage. We're doing farm tonight so I'm thinking of send full cds into 2nd collector phase and getting a cd set back during the final part of the fight (but my cds will miss the 2nd amp so might be less boss damage overall)

[gilded ferry]

i see, i was looking at top log in fractilus and it does that

[vivid cobalt]

no

[dusk stone]

yeah you basically just dont want to touch collectors

anyone telling you to do that is just wrong afaik because you're more important elsewhere

[swift tinsel]

it's not often that you can make it work bc it means you can't sit on a coup if you get one right after bc you won't have your sectech ready so its a bit of a gamble

[wicked urchin]

love this game so much

(fuck this game)

[swift tinsel]

Guy vault

[west tide]

but max netherprism m is 140k and max heroic is 70k

[swift tinsel]

rip

[west tide]

i need that extraaa JUICE

[vivid cobalt]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

any prism is the best prism

[west tide]

thats fair

[jagged rover]

agreed, the only reason I'm thinking of sending on 2nd collectors is for an extra use of blades at the end. Its more just for a better parse than actually helping us kill it

[west tide]

im just big and greedy

[swift tinsel]

even lfr prism is good

take whatever level you can get today

[wicked urchin]

monk in my guild just got their second prism from timewalking 🙂

[swift tinsel]

if you get a myth later, cool

[dusk stone]

its only champ tier from timewalking right

[swift tinsel]

yes

[wicked urchin]

yes

[swift tinsel]

hero is only from the firelands cache at the end

[jagged rover]

I got first normal prism, then 2nd heroic prism, and probably get first mythic prism if it drops this week from our frac kill lol

[swift tinsel]

from the quest

now that i got prism from vault its guaranteed to drop in raid tonight

[wicked urchin]

we roll on gear and the only prism thats dropped went to our hunter 🙂

[west tide]

theres gotta be a better person to get another m prism

[jagged rover]

if they play MM thats fine, though next prism regardless of track should go to the sub rogue

[west tide]

like a hunter or somethin

[grim pewter]

ah this makes sense. it does seem like the overall consensus is that it isnt a super big deal to min max the uptime on it. thanks for the detailed explanations 🙂

[dusk stone]

it is

[jagged rover]

nah, its a bigger upgrade for me than anyone else

[dusk stone]

it is a lot of damage to miss out on not having it

what the consensus is is we just gamble for it so people have moved away from it

[west tide]

its not just about the number though

esp if someone doesnt have it and its marginally worse

imo

[swift tinsel]

you don't game FW in aoe

[dusk stone]

but hitting BP without it is just cringe to me

[wicked urchin]

yeah i know theyre a fine target and its good for them but i'm still spiteful hahaha

[west tide]

i do loot in my guild thats my philosophy

[swift tinsel]

and its basically 100% uptime in st

except for fract

[wicked urchin]

not having prism makes me not want to play the game at this point

[graceful osprey]

Welp no prism but I did get the boots from soul hunters

[jagged rover]

eh for us it mostly is about the number. I'll be in for all of prog and just going off of upgrades its higher for me. We both have a heroic prism, no one else uses prism really, and its the 2nd biggest upgrade I have left (just under soul hunter boots)

[dusk stone]

my guild keeps giving out trinkets to the worst performers

[cunning notch]

afk next fight, win loot, ez

[jagged rover]

but also droptimizer numbers are weird. Sub is pretty bad on single target that it uses, so in actual fights my upgrades are stronger than most others (because of damage amps and sub being able to move damage to specific pain points)

[wicked urchin]

champion track prism is still 2% for me

[kind wasp]

Can anyone who uses LE's pack tell me what this is?
The 2.0 and 3.0 next to shadow dance?

[jagged rover]

stacks of dance and symbols?

[hoary moat]

Is Cursed Stone Idol simbait?

[kind wasp]

Maybe it's attached to Flagellation actually

[jagged rover]

I dont use the pack so I'm guessing

[swift tinsel]

estimated dance and symbols charges for next flag

[kind wasp]

Oh damn, advanced.

[swift tinsel]

yeah LE's auras are the best

[kind wasp]

I'm gonna fuck so many mechanics up just by staring at them

[marble mauve]

I feel like the trinket is baiting me. I'd rather run heroic on-use trinkets right?... or antenna which is easier to get than a myth chest. The dagger might be the play though. I currently have a crafted dagger and a heroic Netherspike

[jagged rover]

are you killing mythic loomithar each week or no? If your strictly M+ myth chest or the dagger might be the options

[marble mauve]

chest is vers mastery

[stoic token]

it is worth it to send evis on prio target in m+ for dance macabre?

[marble mauve]

I haven't yet cause the rog is a freshie but I definitely plan to

[swift tinsel]

if you wanna do prio damage just evisc instead of bp

but not for danse

[jagged rover]

if your going to get regular loomithar kills I'd go chest or trinket (depending what you have)

[marble mauve]

My trinkets are absolutely trash but I feel like that's irrelevant

don't care for immediate power, thinking longterm

https://i.imgur.com/KApJ81P.png

this is my helm, so I'd probably keep the chest, and catalyze helm for slightly less mastery

[jagged rover]

maybe catalyse helm and chest both once you get a good shoulder for offset

[stoic token]

yea getting back to rogue after DF. The thought process was might as well do it as a habit for prio dmg/getting an extra DM stack

[alpine wraith]

yea getting M pieces is big

[hoary moat]

does anyone used Carved Stone Idol? It sims well but seems deeply impractical

[thorn haven]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[jagged rover]

its a trinket I will actively avoid (I def wont use it with my trinkets). Even if it was the best for M+, its annoying to use

[marble mauve]

I was thinking catalyze helm and hero shoulders and keep the vers mastery of the chest for sub

[jagged rover]

loom shoulders are the preferred offset piece for sub and are good stats, but you can go either way

chest just has good stats already

[marble mauve]

i see, just cause a bit more mastery

[stoic token]

Do i need to worry about first dance falling off or am free to rupture everything before go?

[jagged rover]

yeah, its a higher mastery piece with a big budget. The haste on chest sucks but its better than shoulders usually

[marble mauve]

How important is it to have two high ilvl daggers, its just the mainhand i care about still, right?

[hollow heron]

!cloak

[jagged rover]

probably just do 2-3 ruptures in a pack, youll lose damage wasting time trying to get it up everywhere

[hazy breach]

Mainhand is the relevant one ye

Offhand dps is irrelevant, its just used for stats, similar to how you'd have bracers or any other slot

[stoic token]

yea usually i do x2 rupture and evis and then go. is this correct?

[jagged rover]

I usually toss a few up while grouping then go into cds/dances and ignore them

yeah. the evis is w/e, just do the highest prio damage finisher, don't worry about danse stacks ever

[marble mauve]

damn you really got me thinking about catalyzing chest now

[jagged rover]

I'd put more thought into if the prio target needs more damage or if the pull needs more aoe

[stoic token]

isnt the evis to get up slice n dice

[marble mauve]

I suppose I could catalyze my hero shoulders now, and when I get the offpiece shoulders, catalyze chest to keep the 4pc

[jagged rover]

yes but its minor in a large aoe pull

[marble mauve]

the shoulders dropping on earlier boss is nice

[jagged rover]

youll get it when you coup anyway

[stoic token]

ty

[idle sedge]

i dont get why are we shruken storming between coup de grace?

[jagged rover]

we generate so many CPs in an aoe pull that SnD for shadow tech pulls wont make or break a pull, youll be outside of dance before energy is an issue

[dusk stone]

because you can lose unseen blade procs

[idle sedge]

how does shruken storming prevent that? i thought it just got applied if they haven't had one in the past 10 seconds

[dusk stone]

also FW application

[jagged rover]

sectec removes the icd for unseen blade and we cant build coup stacks while we have the buff, so you can lose them if you strike to build

[dusk stone]

because shadowstrike is what procs unseen blade the most

[jagged rover]

shuriken storm doesn't proc unseen blade

[dusk stone]

you usually use sectec before coups so you get to ignore the next 2 CD's of unseen blade

[idle sedge]

ahhh

[fallen crescent]

is there a way to sim all flasks at the same time

[dusk stone]

but also

that is literally where you apply find weakness in aoe

it is important

[idle sedge]

does sec tec usually line up with coup?

[dusk stone]

it should be but often isnt depending on the scenario

you most just care in cases that that is the case

[cunning notch]

i still dont understand how you can not press buttons in m+ and hold for coup

it feels so anti rogue

[dusk stone]

because you do nothing rly outside of dance

refresh rupture for sure, and store sht stacks

[cunning notch]

what makes coup go away only evic ?

[jagged rover]

its pretty often because we can build a lot of stacks after sectec, but it depends. The only time I ever think about coup more is when I have it up going into dance, so then I do a dance > coup > backstab + symbols > sectec > 2nd coup (to land supercharger on sectec and the 2nd coup)

[dusk stone]

using it and then not using it during 4p

[cunning notch]

this spec is overly complicated tbh ( OPINION )

[rancid crow]

I followed a gem and enchant guide for sin, but I sim higher with sub, so I'm a sub again now, hi guys

[hazy breach]

But why do this, it doesnt make any sense

[idle sedge]

i assume you always want max combo points before using a finisher is that more important than over capping?

[rancid crow]

what should I improve to get the best performance (just asking for general advice)

[cunning notch]

haste is pretty high u need around 5-4k

[rancid crow]

I'll work on bringing it down. Why does sub not want haste? what does it do, and does that mean lust is bad for us?

[maiden oar]

does anyone pug heroic and know how much of a bribe someone would take to trade me a ritual forge on heroic

[jagged rover]

the alternative is just dance stuff > sectec > coup > coup right? then the 4pc proc isn't supercharged and it hits harder

[hazy breach]

Lets say for every combo points your coup (eviscerate) does 100 damage.
In your scenario youre getting this:

• Coup (1200) > Coup2 (1500x1.3x1.16=2262) for a total of 3462
  If you just symbols immediately you'd get this:
• Coup (1500x1.16=1740) > Coup2 (1200x1.16x1.3=1810) for a total of 3550

[maiden oar]

or is even a champ ritual forge superior to myth antenna for nexus king + dimmy

[potent nimbus]

for sub do we ideally want 2x on-use or on-use/antenna

[hazy breach]

No, id suggest mythic antenna over hc forge as well

[maiden oar]

oh i see

i saw some people say that hc forge > m antenna for last 2

but maybe im the victim of a psychological operation

[jagged rover]

Yeah I was probably overthinking it because of wanting to get the big coup hit, but makes sense

[hazy breach]

Haste makes you auto attack faster and generate more energy, but we already have pretty much infinite energy when were in symbols

So the only thing we get is slightly more combo points from our auto attacks as well as rupture ticking faster

Which is not nearly as impactful as just straightup more damage from vers, crit or mastery

[rancid crow]

makes sense, great info, thanks

[jagged rover]

honestly if you have to ask about double on use vs passive, just go with passive. You'll know if double on use is better for you/a specific situation, otherwise youll probably just make a mistake with double on use costing you more damage than you would otherwise gain

[rancid crow]

this discord is awesome

[slow gorge]

Sim for the dagger

[rancid crow]

last question for the day, since I can't sim it: how much dps do you realistically lose if you macro dance with symbols? (ballpark %)

[shrewd lantern]

tbh its more like assa is kind of braindead

[cunning notch]

alot %

from what i understand you want the supercharged sectec

[maiden oar]

no i know exactly how id use it and why on the last 2

[shrewd lantern]

outlaw and sub have more going on average

[maiden oar]

i just am not sure if its mathematically better because sims wont tell me

so im going off of what people who have already cleared the final 2 have said

[hazy breach]

People are massively overglazing the double on-use

[maiden oar]

i see

[cunning notch]

hard is not equal to fun in my opinion, assa feels like affli lock with more buttons to press in an order

[hazy breach]

Its fine, but its not massively better than a solid passive

[shrewd lantern]

didnt people have double mythic in the race

[maiden oar]

my main concern is just contributing less on stuff like platforms and dimmy p2 if i send 18 stacks on the amp on the final 2

[jagged rover]

my latest sim JUST put mythic ritual forge as a gain over mythic antenna for me, but its a tiny gain unless I can game the situation perfectly

[sullen hare]

People did yes

[maiden oar]

and somewhat the movement requirements of the last 2 fights

[sullen hare]

I'm not imexile though

[maiden oar]

leading to higher miss chance o norbs

[sullen hare]

So I'll do on use and passive

[maiden oar]

but mostly i just want to contribute to every important section of those fights

[rancid crow]

thank you guys. I'll come back tomorrow for my next round of noob questions lol

[jagged rover]

with the amount of gear we're getting now, I don't think dimmy final phase will be anywhere near as tight as it was for rwf guilds

[maiden oar]

but yeah if m antenna is fine then its np i cant sim for it so i have no idea

[jagged rover]

the hard part is entirely skipped by gear

[cunning notch]

no dumb questions here gang, were all here to learn

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah but you said spec complexity.

[maiden oar]

i just feel bad not prisming on nexus king platform

[stoic token]

this coup talk is confusing me, this is when you get 4 set correct?

[sullen hare]

Plus by the time my guild gets there it'll be nerfed through the floor

[shrewd lantern]

On a relative scale sub is complex when you compare it to assa yes

[maiden oar]

even if i know its good for killing p3 it feels bad for killing the titan u know?

[rancid crow]

coup de grace is the trickster talen

talent

[stoic token]

right but the 4 set is what is causing the wonky rotation right

b/c you get 2?

[maiden oar]

but i guess platform check isnt very relevant now and by the time we finish dimmy the p1/p2 check also probably matters less

[sullen hare]

It doesn't make it super wonky but it does introduce a couple optimizations

[rancid crow]

yeah, its probably something i should start paying attention to lol

[sullen hare]

And the CDR is nice. Gonna be awful going back to not having all that extra CDR

[maiden oar]

i just like the idea of being strong at every point where subs profile is useful for an entire fight as opposed to picking and choosing

[cunning notch]

🤓 ☝️

[hazy breach]

The platform is almost a minute long

[jagged rover]

I tried saving for burn last week and we killed the dragon before I was even fully through my cds, and the titan was 60% before my cds started there too lol

cant wait for things to last on mythic though so I can actually optimize

[shrewd lantern]

I mean for most guilds

they'll get to bosses when all these burns

aren't a thing

[maiden oar]

yea thats true ill see how it feels after reclears also

since we do 1 more set this wk then extend until dimmy dies

so maybe platforms fake and it doesnt feel as much like im contributing less holding 18 stack til amp

[shrewd lantern]

the main issue is most people dont bother to get the concept of why double on use is good

and try a one size fits all gearing strat

for all content

[maiden oar]

yea im only interested in it for last 2 fights on m

[shrewd lantern]

yeah when theres valid burns double on use makes sense

[maiden oar]

if it helps smooth our prog out by letting me have dmg for every important part i would like to do it

[shrewd lantern]

random boss without specifics? or m+?

[languid moss]

guys, can someone explain when should i use black powder?

[maiden oar]

but if my m antenna > h forge then whatever

[shrewd lantern]

not so much

[maiden oar]

ill not worry about it unlkess i hit m forge from vault

[jagged rover]

4+ targets

[maiden oar]

but tbh even if its bad for log if it helps our prog a bit by giving more mistake allowance id consider it

but u cant quantify these things so i dont even know if thatgs true or if its good lol

[hazy breach]

These are obviously not 100000% accurate, but this is simming 6 targets one minute without any prism stacks to start, where the double on-use is roughly 5.5% ahead and then im simming 30 seconds singletarget with 18 stacks.
(both of the sims with coup ready at the start as thats very feasible)

[languid moss]

@jagged rover always? or when no cd on SD and symbols?

[hazy breach]

So ye you'd do slightly less to the platform (not that much) but roughly the same amount increased on the amp

[maiden oar]

i see

[hazy breach]

Or if you pop the 18 stack on the platform it would obviously be reversed

[dusk stone]

a lot because stuff like that becomes habitual where you take multiple shortcuts and the culminating loss matters

[maiden oar]

i guess also the dimmy flag timings will be different than rwf perhaps

[south kernel]

always

[maiden oar]

and the imexile 2:00 forge halfway through flag tech might not be relevant for my guild

[maiden oar]

this is illegal right

i mean for prog i can do it but when we get to the point where killing the boss is on the table im the devil if i do that arent i

[hazy breach]

Good for progress to make sure you get through

[maiden oar]

oh yeah

i mean after that

[hazy breach]

If youre wiping to boss enrages and youre full sending on platforms yeah thats sus as hell

[spare turtle]

Hey, how come sub gets so little play? it doesn't seem that much behind sin in damage, at least looking at raid logs.

[dusk stone]

because its harder than other specs

it only does well when you don't take shortcuts and do the optimizations right

[maiden oar]

if you dont mind me asking @ eleem do people just feelycraft stuff like this that is kind of impossible to sim or is there some way to quantify it

2nd tier raiding in this game so i have 0 good instincts whatsoever and im mostly copying better players

and i see all the guys who clear use 2x on use and i see why they would want to use it so i think oh ok thats probably better than my antenna

but i have no idea how to come to my own conclusion without just guessing

[dusk stone]

there is just math too

on saladbar popping 18 prism while not a great thing is obviously gonna give you the most out of it because 7 targets

[spare turtle]

So playing by the standard guides from maxroll and wowhead won't get you all the way there?

[maiden oar]

oh no i mean making the correct decision w/ a prog oriented mindset

[dusk stone]

thats not really it, its just people want to macro stuff wrong, want to do the opener wrong and in general just press random buttons, sub is much less forgiving than other specs

[maiden oar]

if i wanted to parse id just slam 18 stack on the platform every time but i think if we want to kill the boss and prog quickly thats bad on pulls we get to p3

[dusk stone]

for what specifically

[hazy breach]

Sometimes theres a way to quantify it (eg comparing 2 logs where you did seperate things) but sometimes theres not and you just have to kinda go by feel

[jagged rover]

most of the time people are just going to feelycraft it, myself included. Its difficult to get sims to cover all situations easily, so a lot of us just think about the situation and pain point we're hitting. I love antenna and its a good amount of passive crit over the entire fight, but if I need on demand damage and the rest of the fight doesn't matter, thats when I'm looking at options for that problem itself

[dusk stone]

can you name an example where its a hard choice to make

[maiden oar]

how much its good to deviate from sims/highest details number on fights that have dps checks that arent just the boss's main hp for the sake of prog

[twin quartz]

Generally speaking it’s ethical to blast unless your raid leader assigns your damage somewhere else

[maiden oar]

like sims will say go antenna on last 2 bosses but the cleared rogues will not be using antenna

that sort of thing

and stuff like not bping on araz even though bp is more dmg (that ones obvious)

[hazy breach]

The main thing about passive trinkets is actually the passive agi. Like forge gives roughly 20-23k agi across your cds but passive trinkets are always 7-8k

[shrewd lantern]

i bp on the last set

because rl says "finish off adds"

[maiden oar]

i see i see

[dusk stone]

forge is frontloaded

[maiden oar]

yea i bp the 2:34 set

but thats it

[jagged rover]

yeah, thats something a lot of people forget when asking about trinkets. Passive main stat is huge and most people just look at trinket procs/effects only

[shrewd lantern]

i feel so many people overlook passive agi

on trinkets

[maiden oar]

yea id never ask about this in fractillus

[shrewd lantern]

the number of times i see damage proc trinkets people ask

[maiden oar]

if sub was the play on fract

[shrewd lantern]

"omg why this trinket do so much %"

no mainstat

mfw

[hazy breach]

So like when i see big keys done with double on-use but theres a 5 minute gap inbetween uses of forge

[maiden oar]

bc passive agi so cool and theres nothing that demands dps at a specific point or else u dont see the rest of the fight

[jagged rover]

theres one set on forgeweaver I might hit BP on, but usually I'm fighting to get damage off before my evoker hits engulf

[haughty mural]

I mean passive agi is what makes Soul hunters kinda decent-ish

[hazy breach]

Im wondering why are you not just using a passive and not losing 10% dmg from passives

But idk

[dusk stone]

for antenna if i dont misunderstand its because antenna normalizes its damage ove the course of a period of time, where forge is just frontloaded

[hazy breach]

[haughty mural]

The trinket itself does not so much

[dusk stone]

different stuff does different things

[hexed sluice]

I rock double on use cause my raids sore point is always prio damage on adds for casual heroic, and I know if I focus on maxing my damage during that, then others will down the rest of the fight easy enough since I'm always overgeared from m+

[shrewd lantern]

idk i feel players are just hard fixated

on big numbers

[dusk stone]

that too

[karmic harbor]

I really don't want to make a separate macro for prism 😩

[shrewd lantern]

people shit on soleah's so much

even though its just

a stat stick

like alot of other trinkets

[dusk stone]

but its like you have something you have to fix, what tools are you gonna use to fix it

[maiden oar]

its not so bad

alt + r = blades
alt + f = blades prism

[dusk stone]

some people just copy other peopels tools they use

[hazy breach]

Which is also why forge looks so good, since it states its number before any decay

[kind river]

I won

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/750492782610743299/1412552909865877667/image.png?ex=68b8b5e9&is=68b76469&hm=c3642c9ccfcdd5df73c22544062445611af11fef55d71044d2f7e122956840a3&

[maiden oar]

u can also just tap alt + r and if u change ur mind immediately after go alt + f

[hazy breach]

And not how much you get on average in your cds

[maiden oar]

yeah

[karmic harbor]

My keybind for blades is | so kinda awkward

[dusk stone]

tldr is just understanding the tools you have and applying it where you think they are best

and understanding ppl just copy a lot

[maiden oar]

yea

rn i copy alot bc i have alot to learn

[dusk stone]

my rogue is key group does this, i try my best to give him the sub cheat sheet but he will only copy

and wonders why he losses to me

[graceful rock]

I find alt modifiers so uncomfortable

[maiden oar]

i got my brain exploded when we got to nexus king and the dratnos guide wasnt out yet

and i couldnt jjust copy dratnos guide

[hollow spear]

Ever since I've changed my blade keybind to alt + f4, I've been hearing less complaints abut me fucking up mechanics

[shrewd lantern]

i hate dratnos guides

[maiden oar]

left thumb

[shrewd lantern]

mf has the most boring voice

[maiden oar]

comfy

[shrewd lantern]

and yaps fluff

sm

[dusk stone]

well saladbar isnt straight forward

[maiden oar]

theyre very convenient and helpful

[karmic harbor]

Dratnos sounds like a dweeb so I like him

[hollow spear]

Dratnos is goated

[dusk stone]

you want to assign stuff specifically because thats what is intuitively best right

but turns out the math supports just send flag

the only real option to change much is 18 stack bp platform

[shrewd lantern]

I feel he says alot of useless shit

[maiden oar]

i like dratnos hes incredibly friendly looking

[shrewd lantern]

also like, big fan of how his araz video

is him tanking away from the boss

90% of it

[dusk stone]

specifically for forge

if i dont misunderstand its great for dimensius because burn is like 15 seconds

[maiden oar]

yea but if the math says this 1 thing is best for me but by doing so i end up making the boss harder to kill by hypothetically griefing someones funnel or whatever then i should take the dmg hit and choose the thing that kills the boss

[dusk stone]

and forge has its value the shorter the amp is

[maiden oar]

fwiw all the rwf guys sent prism on the burn

[dusk stone]

antenna prism is prolly better for 24 second 3 dance rotation, forge prolly better for 2 dance flag maybe

feelycraft

[maiden oar]

forge was more because in a fight where you need to do x amount of damage to see the next section of it over and over

it lets you stack prism for some of these sections without having nothng for the others

and the movement requirements making antenna annoying

[dusk stone]

well you can do that with antenna too

18 prism is just more obvious with forge

you maybe dont want to always 18 stack in keys because you can just lose dance uses and lose trinket stacks

but for raid this is much less true

[maiden oar]

yea u can but theres a diff between going like nothing -> prism -> nothing -> prism and forge -> prism -> forge -> prism if the 3rd and 4th flag are both important for prog if that makes sense

and prism is less good back to back if you want to make sure 18 stacks hits the most important flag of the fight and also have something for the 2nd most important flag of the fight right before it

[dusk stone]

you cant prism and forge

[maiden oar]

no i mean flag 1 -> flag 2 -> flag 3 -> flag 4

[dusk stone]

well thats just duration

antennas dmg is just rly hidden

[maiden oar]

antennas the 100% better choice on a fight like fractillus

because theres only 1 dps check that lasts the entire fight

but yea im just repeating myself @ this point hehe

[hollow spear]

They're simming almost equally for me and that's assuming you're missing 0 orbs

[maiden oar]

i have to miss a few for them to be even but im low on crit

[dusk stone]

that doesnt seem right but i havent looked at it

antenna is numerically better to some significant degree or is suppose to be

[maiden oar]

mmo mouse guy?

[kind river]

gotta say its nice to be able to flex around the 1800 secondary stat on the cloak

[dusk stone]

gross

[jagged rover]

yeah but I mostly only use the first 2 rows on it

[kind river]

I kind of wish more items were like this?

specifically rings

[swift tinsel]

man if nameplatekai had any abilitiy to modify focus nameplate it would be great

[maiden oar]

i see

i play like this w/ ss on mb4 in stealth

[graceful rock]

You don’t wanna see my bars

[maiden oar]

but my binds are kinda psycho

[jagged rover]

I've played so long and so many classes that I generally try to keep functions the same where possible

[swift tinsel]

the trick is to have your Flag bind with a Sepsis icon

[dusk stone]

i legit keep bloat on my bars

F for flag

[jagged rover]

kick is always on the same mouse button, cds are F1-4 when possible, defensives on alt+1-3, etc

[swift tinsel]

wym kick is E

[maiden oar]

yeah i have mo single target stops on 1-4 and focus on alt 1-4

which takes some valuable real estate but its so easy to universalize

so i just do it

[dusk stone]

kidney is mouse button

[graceful rock]

Space bar kick 📈

[jagged rover]

the classes that end up with like 5 mini cds fuck my binds up

[dusk stone]

when kidney is easy to reach you want to use it so much in keys

[hexed sluice]

Kidney is 2.

[swift tinsel]

that's a shift-5er

[dusk stone]

i am huge proponent of intuitive keybindings

[jagged rover]

E and Shift+E are for aoe abilities

[dusk stone]

i have vanish on shift + F which is non intuitive cause F is for flag

i notice the ms delay in using that is a lot

[honest basin]

My keybinds are all just factually correct. I know because I have autism and my brain told me so

[dusk stone]

but like my sectec being 5 and cb is shift 5

lot less ms delay

[jagged rover]

also my shadowstrike is 4 in my stealth bar, so its blank unstealthed until the day I can get rid of backstab in stealth

[graceful rock]

I have a crazy cook

[shrewd lantern]

why does bro have a physical hearthstone

[jagged rover]

my feral bars, fuck adaptive swam living outside of the cd row

[graceful rock]

Bind your entire keyboard based on the cast sequence of a log and go key by key

[maiden oar]

i did something like that once but i just double bound backstab outside of stealth instead

hehe

[honest basin]

1 is always primary builder, 3 is always primary spender, rupture is 2, 4 is the spec-specific button(sectech, bte, garrote) 5 is BP, 6 is SnD, 7 is the AOE Button™(storm, fok, blade flurry) 8 is The Cooldown Button™(kb, blades, adr) 9 is literally only ever shadow dance and idk why but I can't put anything else there. 10 is empty because it's a stupid button, 11 is blind, 12 is distract.

[shrewd lantern]

my feral is named buffrogue

[dusk stone]

i really think there is something about muscle memory and intuitive keybindings, we as humans are imperfect creatures and your brain still has to approve of you doing things like all the thoughts are still processed so theres a natural delay we have with stuff

doing stuff over years lowers the delay

[maiden oar]

is feral fun in st

or is it like sin rogue

and u fall asleep

[jagged rover]

2 is always primary builder/spam key, 1 is the proc/primary finisher

[shrewd lantern]

its a sin rogue copy

[honest basin]

Feral way more fun than sin

[maiden oar]

uh oh

[cunning notch]

i tought i had a big bar but that scares me

[honest basin]

Snapshotting

[jagged rover]

like stormstrike is 2 on enhance, 1 is LB, 3 is lava lash

[honest basin]

[shrewd lantern]

nah izzi

[weary crystal]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[maiden oar]

oh i liked snapshotting in ffxiv

maybe i will like feral

[shrewd lantern]

you nee ankh hotbarred

fastest ankh in the west

[jagged rover]

I love playing feral, snapshotting is great

[swift tinsel]

gotta have the baby bars

[shrewd lantern]

yeah feral has snapshotting

but psure its slower than sin?

[swift tinsel]

since default bars can't be hidden in combat

[shrewd lantern]

sin nowadays is fucking full speed ungabunga

[maiden oar]

slow is ok if im using my brain

[jagged rover]

its slower at times

you need to pool energy constantly as feral

[maiden oar]

i just dont like being mentally afk

[jagged rover]

and just upkeep bleeds

rip is only like 19 seconds, so your always fighting to upkeep something

[honest basin]

Slower but way more interesting

[maiden oar]

ic

[honest basin]

Sin literally just envenom simulator

[jagged rover]

also primal wrath != crimson tempest

[cunning notch]

Survival hunter bleeds uptime

[dusk stone]

i got like green parses with sin for my first 2 keys

then they were at least purple when i went at half speed

[jagged rover]

you used to spam primal wrath, now you upkeep super short bleeds and try to bite/ravage in between

[maiden oar]

yea i went from blue to rank 2 on plexus when i learned to slow down on sin

[jagged rover]

like sub, feral gets to kill the prio target to do aoe damage

[maiden oar]

it could be rng but i think sin benefits from patience

[dusk stone]

it does bigly

[maiden oar]

not rank 2 anymore though hehe

[honest basin]

Up keeping 10 sec rip sounds way more fun than refreshing rupture on a 30% mob to execute it faster lmao

[dusk stone]

idk why people complain about watching dots on sin

but i suppose my internal timers are good at that kind of thing

[inner flower]

is dungeon slice a good sim for sub?

[honest basin]

I like watching dots in st/3t type shit

[dusk stone]

patchwerk or dslice doesnt matter, gear is gear

[honest basin]

But in big aoe

It gives me brain static

[shrewd lantern]

yeah sin is basically take a drink

while doing big dammie

[dusk stone]

also i didnt realize until the other day you need haste on sin

[honest basin]

I was sippin some juice in a key the other day while backstabbing and my guildies are like bro what are you doing

[dusk stone]

i was running zero

[shrewd lantern]

you do go full zug during cds

or execute

but otherwise its kinda afk

[maiden oar]

i got exposed on araz pillars

[honest basin]

And Im like "it's mandatory afk time"

[swift tinsel]

you dont really need it

[maiden oar]

they looked at pillar dmg and said wtf are u doing'

[shrewd lantern]

yeah autoattacking the boss building sht

[dusk stone]

is the stat optimization not worth it? that seems like a lot of stat

[maiden oar]

and i said its optimal i promise

[shrewd lantern]

[honest basin]

I had to hit em with the "y'all ain't got mandatory afk time in your rotation??"

[graceful rock]

i got kicked off the pillars on araz

[jagged rover]

my guild knows I do nothign to pillars

[dusk stone]

tell them to learn how their spec works

[maiden oar]

they arent supposed to know im auto attacking

[dusk stone]

before they judge yours

[maiden oar]

no they let me do it but it just looks bad

[shrewd lantern]

best thing i can do is send one dance

[graceful rock]

got assigned to be the tanks pet and smack the echo for intermission

[shrewd lantern]

into the pillar

[honest basin]

That's the best part, I get to be alone with my backstab button and my darkest thoughts for 20 seconds before I zug again

[maiden oar]

bc everyone is trying their best and im melee swinging

[jagged rover]

pillar damage

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah basically

[honest basin]

Wait I have a similar one

[jagged rover]

boss dam

[honest basin]

Hold on

Brb I'm on phone

[signal heath]

is sub worth it for M+ if i dont have netherprism?

[graceful rock]

pillar

[dusk stone]

yeah

[maiden oar]

yea its ok to not have it

[jagged rover]

I send like 1 dance per pillar and a naked sectec

[dusk stone]

maker and lily are -1.5% of prism tenna' iirc

[honest basin]

Pillar dam

[dusk stone]

prism is just better sometimes because the damage is modal

[honest basin]

Boss dam

[dusk stone]

though i do wonder