subtlety

[wet plank]

why is sigil simming so good for me but feelycraft this thing is dogshit in keys does fuck all feels like

[swift tinsel]

Ah even worse with add pad lol

[alpine wraith]

sigil is good

it has passive agi+does decent dmg

[shadow lance]

Tbh, a lot of people wanna play sub for this kind of video

[dusk stone]

it was hilarious deleting like 70% of the hp pool in 1 cycle

[shadow lance]

Then realize you do less than tank damages for 40 sec

[wet plank]

passive agil? like mainstat on the item itself? and 1.x of my dmg feels like that aint shit tbh

[swift tinsel]

Sigil is good single target/boss damage but the splash effect is kinda eh

[swift tinsel]

Yes

[wet plank]

yea feels single target trinket but i cant get rid of it from my m+ sims

[dusk stone]

so like would there then be cases on a key by key basis with a non pug team where its good then or?

[swift tinsel]

What are you simming it against

[dusk stone]

good for X not for X

[shadow lance]

@dusk stone Tbh, you have to have a team playing around your cds

If you wanna make it works

[hazy breach]

Idk i dont think double on-use is the play regardless but

[shadow lance]

So having a comp that is 3 min 90 sec or no cd dependant

[dusk stone]

well i only ask because with teams there's always "if X, then Y" scenarios

[shadow lance]

Double use is great when you can use it on cd

If you can't, better prism/passive

[dusk stone]

i think im getting it for raid regardless this tier

but i disliked the lack of damage we did outside of cds last tier a lot

[shadow lance]

Raid, I think it's kinda cool for short fights or amps fights

Cuz I'm the melee mechanic bitch now

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I don’t mind the downtime for that

If things are during my cds tho I tell them to figure it out lol

[short bay]

Any tips how to hit crazy aoe numbers as sub? I see clips of 40-50K aoe burst online, but ive barely hit 20K myself

At which (if any point) do you ignore rupture spread and go full spam? Is it really black powder instead of evi finisher outside the set proc on 4+ targets?

[daring tusk]

anyone know why my SB and Lily would become desynced in M+?

[swift tinsel]

Weekly affix

[daring tusk]

ahh good shout ty

[swift tinsel]

Yeah it’s a fun one lol

[daring tusk]

forget thats a thing

[swift tinsel]

The vers is nice

But the desynch can be a bit annoying

[dusk stone]

you would also have to 3 dance for araz forge too

to get value

if you dont youre just leaving your passive trinket agi on the floor and likely overcapping dances because of that too. Additionally the last trinket you use means you lose all value after that in the key too. While with passive you never do. (araz can be on CD or awaiting next flag and zero use)

[scarlet oyster]

I can't understand why we have to shuriken storm instead of shadowstrike between 2 coups de grace, can someone explain it to me ? is it not to waste a potential unfazed proc ?

[dusk stone]

its so you dont waste unseen blade proc because you cant build over 4 while 4p active

[thick field]

in dungeons if a pack is pulled, you flag then spread rupture, not spread rupture then flag on the last one into your rotation?

[twilit merlin]

How is it wasted ? is it because you want to make sure to refresh the fazed debuff for longer ?

[spring veldt]

If you shadowstrike then the unseen blade proc will not count as a stack for your next coup

[twilit merlin]

oh

right right, its to build another coup faster

[rugged hazel]

Planning on gearing up my rogue alt again, is it a fool move NOT to go sub rogue atm or are the other two just fine in +12-14 ranges ?

[wicked urchin]

what are we predicting for class tuning this week?

surely there’s no sub nerf that’s completely unnecessary

[north spire]

assa buffed 20% just because

[wicked urchin]

assa buffed and then 3 weeks later they fix the bugs (except one)

and then assa is the giga choice

[grand viper]

All specs are good, outlaw is a little behind the other two and much harder

anything is viable for 12-14s

[twilit merlin]

outlaw harder than sub ?

[grand viper]

yes

[wicked urchin]

sub is not actually hard

it’s just punishing

[twilit merlin]

just a lot of condition of do Y if X but if Z then its ok but only if W is available soon

lmao

[wicked urchin]

it’s more

do your burst cd window properly

Fuck off and do a couple dances

[grand viper]

i mean that logic applies to any spec or class

[wicked urchin]

gg ur 90th percentile

or 99th

[twilit merlin]

some dont have all of these and are easier to auto pilot with a weakaura telling you everything imo

[swift tinsel]

If it’s a fight where you aren’t timing cds around anything and are just sending sub is one of the easiest specs

[wicked urchin]

even then it just takes 5 minutes of log research

[swift tinsel]

Ye or just import from lorrgs

So 30 seconds lol

[wicked urchin]

the difficult stuff is the nuance

[grand viper]

im sure theres weakauras playing the game for every spec lol

[wicked urchin]

the nuance with sub is stuff weakauras can’t really teach you tbh

[twilit merlin]

struggling right now with sub, havent played for a few years 🥲

hate this danse macabre backstab shit

[grand viper]

Its definetly hard to get into imo, but youll pick it up!

[grand viper]

True, but theres stuff that can help fs

[hazy breach]

Sub has relatively few things to track but theyre very important to keep track of, not only "if theyre up or not" like most other specs

[twilit merlin]

Would rather play a dark brew build if it was okay'ish

[hazy breach]

Youre way better of just skipping the backstab than swapping it for dark brew

[rugged hazel]

Tyvm for the insight.

[hazy breach]

The backstab thing is minor

[rugged hazel]

When you say a little behind, are we talking 1-3% or something like 10%?

[hazy breach]

No need to get hung up on that

Timing your dances and symbols is what the spec is about

And doing that well is almost all that matters

[twilit merlin]

Yeah, I keep wasting some combo with the shadowcraft, need to work on that

Also thinking about macroing shadowblade with flag, because its always together, right ?

[hazy breach]

Together yes, at the same time not at all

[twilit merlin]

oh right you rupture after flag, then shadowblade

[hazy breach]

No

[twilit merlin]

dam im so shit

[grand viper]

It will only continuously get worse since it doesn't scale well. It would also probably take you the entire season to learn outlaw. It's damage can be competitive at times but its rng and just overall much more difficult but extremely punishing. You'll get better and faster results as the other two specs

[hazy breach]

check out the burst sequence (ie the opener) in the guides and just practice doing that over and over and over

Because thats pretty much all of your damage

Then when you can do the opener, you make sure you always have enough resources to do the opener when its ready

[wicked urchin]

i mean is there? aside from standard tracking stuff

[grand viper]

For Sub, not to my knowledge. But i mean that alleviates the mental load already so id say tracking helps and lets you focus on other things

[rugged hazel]

So if we look past the learning curve, assuming i got some exp from S1 outlaw. Sub is just more worth ones time adapting for s3 due to scaling most likely? Wich i assume carries over to s4 unless balance goes bananas

[grand viper]

There will not be a season 4 I believe.

But yes, Assa or Sub would be better most likely

[rugged hazel]

oh, i assumed they would go DF mode s4, but that was pure gut feel 😄

[grand viper]

But at the end of the day, play what you enjoy

I love outlaw and im still playing it and making it work!

If youre just looking for an easier time climbing then sub or assa 100%

Youll also get invited more xD

[frigid latch]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```

[signal moth]

do you have 1 less charge of dance than symbols?

[frigid latch]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[cursive island]

Hi subs. Is it okay to do one "burst macro" that i press every 1.30mins with : SD, Symbols, Backstab, SB ? So i can St after and Go into the Cd rotation ?

[stoic pier]

Does anyone know if Shadowed Finishers (30% Dmg amp on evis and bp if target has FW) works with a nimble flurry evis?

[hazy breach]

the shadow damage from shadowed finishers get cleaved with nimble flurry yes

[frigid latch]

is there a way not to have my tea pressed if i have it running

[rugged hazel]

If that was the main concern, i would stay on my Arcane mage or prot warrior 😄

[hazy breach]

Far from optimal, but you do you

[frigid latch]

like a macro or smthing

[twilit merlin]

yep doing that; sometimes I panick during my opener because I have a big aoe or something to kick during it (i play only mm+ on my rogue)

[frigid latch]

simillar to how you put ! not to cancel abilities

[twilit merlin]

is there any secret on that

or just skill issue

[cursive island]

Actually I press all manually, but i dont see why i could not do this one :/

[hazy breach]

Well you shouldnt press it all manually either

At the same time that is

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[stoic pier]

Is there a world where Gloomblade is usable?

[haughty mural]

In our hearts

[short radish]

yeah patch 10.1

[stoic pier]

xD

[sage raft]

can anybody tell me how to sim sub correctly? (like how many targets, figh length and stuff) for m+ ?

[stoic pier]

I like the theme of it

[short radish]

dungeonslice

[grand viper]

dungeon slice for gear

[sage raft]

ok, why is it dungeon slice and not like patchwork-modified sims ?

[devout jackal]

Give it a try. Who gives a fuck about minmaxing

[cursive island]

I might be dumb but the cd sequence goes : SD+Symbols, Backstab and SB. Only Backstab is ok GCD here no ??

[hazy breach]

That is not the sequence no

[hollow spear]

Is it possible to display the information that is gathered in one WA in another WA?

Specific case: I am trying to display the unseen blade stacks from LE's weakaura as part of my Escalating Blade WA that is part of another pack.

[cursive island]

I'm Gonna take a meeting with the ophtalmologist then

[hazy breach]

?

[short bay]

Is there any cap on ruptures? And at what point do you stop spreading rupture and go spam dance ?

And is it blaxk powder for 4+ targets even as trickster?

[hazy breach]

Yes it 4 targets as trickster

You wouldnt play deathstalker, but its 2 for them

BP almost better on ST for deathstalker

[short bay]

Okok. And rupture spread to any target as long as they will live for X+ seconds? No breakpoint where just pure spam dance and bp and ignore rupt?

[signal moth]

lmfao, i died on first boss (couldnt find dagger in streets) we then proceeded to do the key and this guy was salty the entire time, I even apologised for playing like shit.. if you admit you did bad = cry babies, if you tell them to stfu = cry babies.. wow community is dog shit esp when youre fucking a million io above them and you were just giving them a chance in the key lol

[grand viper]

Rupture mobs as theyre being gathered but dont hold your cds to rupture more than your prio target

When out of cds you rupture prio targets that last longer than 12 seconds

[cursive vapor]

unfortunately every game has these people

shake it off and go next

[jade urchin]

do yall sometimes drop your target when pressing shadowdance?
if so has anyone found a fix for that yet

[cursive vapor]

*games with any kind of rated progression

[signal moth]

yh i was one of those toxic noobs back in the day, but now its like.. 'yh mb, couldnt find dagger, died' and they just spend the next 20 minutes flaming/trolling lol

now im like.. life is good just go next lol

losers

[cursive vapor]

yeye let them yap, everyone does mistakes here and there (except me)

if everything would be perfect why even playing

if u then have one banger key you alr forgot that

[wise geode]

So I’m playing sub and I’m trying to put all the pieces together for keys but pressing black powder just feels like insubordinate pad and priory knights and shit just live forever. Am I SUPPOSED to be just mashing the shit out of it outside of coup/tech?

[swift tinsel]

if you need more prio you can evisc

you're not hard required to bp

[plush roost]

But my.details meter

[swift tinsel]

it shows combat length too bc a prio mob is still 30% after all the pissers are dead

[plush roost]

Dafuq

Who puts combat length on their details

Dynamic overall and damge done smhmyhead

Healing?
Interupts? Nahh

[swift tinsel]

it shows in the top window bar

in brackets next to Damage Done

not a sep window lol

[plush roost]

Oh? That must be a setting i dont have on

I just use mrt timer

[wise geode]

this is what has been happening in every key I've played sub in; and they are like; 10-12's

[clever delta]

if i faction change during week i lose the vantus for fun right?

[wise geode]

you lose a vantus but get to revantus I believe

b/c you dont HAVE a buff

[wicked urchin]

there’s no way sub gets nerfed with tuning passes right

[plush roost]

Unlikely

[swift tinsel]

why would it

[wicked urchin]

i only say that because blizzard always wants people to play ass

[plush roost]

Sub is in a good spot no buffs or nerfs needed tbh

[swift tinsel]

if they did they would have fixed caustic singular bug by now lol

[wicked urchin]

that’s exactly how i feel

[swift tinsel]

sub is strong but not busted

and situationally strong

[wicked urchin]

but we got nerfed at the start of nerubar because of heroic logs

[swift tinsel]

which is a good place to be imo

[plush roost]

Theyll probably tap destro, mm and lovetap survival feral boomkin if i had to put a guess

[wooden fiber]

are shadow dance and symbol off gcd?

[plush roost]

Ye

[wooden fiber]

ty

[twilit phoenix]

same with undermine

[swift tinsel]

undermine was nerfed last bit of ptr iirc

when they cut the tier set % and nerfed sectech

[wicked urchin]

i’m just jaded now and expect the worst

this is a really cool tier for sub

we’re not overpowered but we shine really hard in the fights that matter

pretty good place to be tbh

[novel spire]

Guys can anyone explain to me when I can understand when I get refund from shadowcraft and when not ?

[twilit phoenix]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=196912/shadow-techniques

you "store" combo points with this passive

random auto attack procs that have a higher chance of stacking during SOD

it's a buff on you that shows the number of stored cps you have

easier to track with a WA

[weary crystal]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[wicked urchin]

if you arent tracking you can still go back to the rule of not using finishers 10s before flag/blades

i think theres a command for that too

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[wicked urchin]

That one

[dim trail]

there is a macro for symbols to avoid doublepress?

[twilit merlin]

#showtooltip Symbols of Death
/castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null
/cqs

[short radish]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[dim trail]

thx!

[burnt ridge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Im expecting mostly buff to underperforming specs ye, and i dont expect sub to get changed unless its bugfixes

Which is probably pretty likely since the assa boys made such a stink about bugs, its pretty likely some of subs stuff gets adressed atleast

(like coup shadowcraft, maybe coup cdr etc)

[weak hamlet]

crazy how people crying that rogue is op but i have spent 3 days queing and im only ever being invited with a duo (tank or dk dps)

not 1 solo invite lmao

aint no way rogue reputation this bad

[uneven scarab]

Happens when u are queuing into 20k other people

its just dps pug life brother

[quaint orbit]

A lot of people have bad experiences with pug rogues also. Like I see more underperforming rogues than any other spec lol

[weak hamlet]

im guessing thats the reason

cause im overqualified (io wise)

and i see my dh dps friend with lower io getting invited xD

much faster

crazy

[tawdry mountain]

Hey guys, is there someone who can help with an apl string for hekili, im new to rogue and i dont like how hekili wanna use Sectec naked

[rose kraken]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[weak hamlet]

if u have an understanding enough to doubt maybe its time to stop using it

[wise geode]

what causes the refund for combo points

[uneven scarab]

Shadowcraft

[keen moth]

what are the cooldowns that one button doesn't press for sub

so i know what to put next to it

[wise geode]

does anyone happen to have a weak aura to annouce when it procs?

I keep bricking the rreset point in my burst and then I miss my second secret tech by 1 global

[signal moth]

what belt thingy do we use?

[runic trail]

Critical chain probably

[uneven shard]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Shadowblades

But uh, the one button rotation isnt doing a fantastic job overall, just so youre aware its like -30% dps compared to playing well

[hazy breach]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[rigid sparrow]

hey guys! Is it possible to help me with these sims? im currently trying to play assa and sub on m+ over 14-15 keys and im struggling with my sim, cuz i have 2m less dmg than the fuu sheet ! Any suggestions? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8zm3PjNShaQYEXKGn35esi

[hazy breach]

Its not random, you can also have a tracker to see if you have 7 shadow technique stacks up already

[left ledge]

you're playing pretty bad talents and have pretty bad trinkets

[keen moth]

i'm not gonna play well. only playing sub because dimensius is broken for outlaw

[vagrant fulcrum]

yo, how we feeling about backstab vs shuriken storm on soulhunters?

[hollow spear]

Why would you expect to be close to fuu's results if he sims with bis and max upgraded gear?

[keen fossil]

Did i understood it correctly that outside of 1,5 min cooldowns you just send death symbols with secret technique even without shadow dance? Or should i always use both SD and symbols together?

Same goes the other way, should i just send SD without symbols if they are on cd and main cooldowns are far away?

TL;DR: always send SD and symbols together or just send symbols with secret technique whenever?

[hazy breach]

For the most part together

[keen fossil]

wdym for the most part.. There are parts in which i send just symbols + technique?

[hazy breach]

You want to always have 2 dances, 2 symbols and 2 sectechs in blades

And inbetween those you want to squeeze as many uses out of your other cooldowns as possible without breaking this pattern

[vagrant fulcrum]

depending on cdr and uptime yes you can end up with extra in between casts of sectec / dance or symbols depending on uptime

[glacial hinge]

!symbols

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[sharp lake]

With CDR this high, isn’t the effective Shadow Dance cooldown lower than Symbols of Death at this point? Or am I not paying attention

[hazy breach]

In aoe yes, in ST no its the opposite

[glacial hinge]

anyone has the symbols macro? so we dont press it?

[sharp lake]

ahhh that explains it

[hazy breach]

!symbols

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[hazy breach]

Turns out there was an accidental space in the command for the bot

[keen fossil]

So after my opener i just sit around and wait for both mini cooldowns to come up for sectech?

[wise geode]

I personally have a bind for shadow-dance + backstab and a seperate one for just dance.

[vagrant fulcrum]

@hazy breach can you clarify the flawless form condition for shuriken storm?

[hazy breach]

What

[glacial hinge]

ty

[vagrant fulcrum]

im seeing that outside of dance we shuriken storm with flawless form up

[hazy breach]

Ye

[vagrant fulcrum]

what's the reason? I woulda assumed the prio would be tied to unseen blade

[fair anchor]

bro this DH tank just brought last priory lieutenant to first boss, everyone goes crazy obviously

[vagrant fulcrum]

is it combo points are more valuable with flawless form?

[hazy breach]

No

[vagrant fulcrum]

and bs gives less than shuriken

[hazy breach]

You want flawless up

[twilit merlin]

balls of steel route

[wise geode]

4 set shenangings

[hazy breach]

So when it drops, you backstab

to get it back

[vagrant fulcrum]

time to track 🙂

[fair anchor]

and he goes "classic dipshit dps who always blame tanks, rogues are the biggest crybabies always complaining about chain pulling". dude thought we were mad about chain pulling 😄

[hazy breach]

It largely doesnt matter though

[vagrant fulcrum]

so its unseen blade usage in disguise

[hazy breach]

Its very very minor

[tame dirge]

Can someone explain why we delay cold blood for the second secret tech?

[hazy breach]

For the most part you just storm and backstab if you want to fish for more coup stacks before a new pack or something

[vagrant fulcrum]

like soulhunters logs seem to have people split like 60/40 with bs and shuriken storm

[sharp lake]

Flagellation stacks

[hazy breach]

Ye because it doesnt really matter

Fuus wording just makes it sound important

[vagrant fulcrum]

fair, is there a point in throwing a bp in a dance?

[tame dirge]

That makes sense. Thank you!

[vagrant fulcrum]

vs 3

[hazy breach]

What

[vagrant fulcrum]

for dm

on soul hunters

or just evisc spam

[hazy breach]

Just evis

[left ledge]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hcWE5U5ZKms2vQApPMZFc5

here's your sim with better talents and a better trinket that you unfortunately dont have

[hazy breach]

Besides soulhunter is mostly 2 targets

[vagrant fulcrum]

true

last thing

thoughts about tea vs cb on 3

ik its ahead on dslice and slightly weaker on st

im assuming its fine

[alpine wraith]

if they fix the coup bugs we eating good

not huge wins but i would take those

[rain vessel]

same. it's easier for my brain

[steady lark]

You know what's fine bro

I won't say

[rigid sparrow]

Im literally sim 300.000 less on assa

Not 2 mil

[raven sage]

guys in how much target count i should use blackpowder? imagine you ar eina 10+ key and other dpses are frost Dk and Havoc DH how should i open my rotation do i still need spreed my rupture? i dont think so myself

[sharp lake]

4 targets

[raven sage]

man they are eating me on overall dmage

[vagrant fulcrum]

thistle tea is the endgame

[raven sage]

gap liek hell

even sub good in that key lvl or what?

[tender frost]

if shadowcraft might proc on like your 3rd hit of coup do you guys try to wait and see or just send the global

[raven sage]

hmm no answrs :(((

[fast fulcrum]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[sharp lake]

4+ targets for black powder. Spread Rupture while gathering pulls (you have Tricks) and while Dance / Sec Tech is on cooldown

[tender frost]

can maybe cast 2 depending on pull size, black powder at 4+ in dance

[raven sage]

ah kk

[tender frost]

and sub is good in 10s yeah, very bursty and pulls dont last long

[raven sage]

i should spreed for sure or can just dont spreed rupture and start my rotation?

[slate lantern]

You only spread on tank gather

[sharp lake]

Yeah on 10s you can often have like big cooldowns up exactly for every pull and you absolutely destroy

[raven sage]

man the dk and the havoc Dh dont let me do anything they are eating packs XD

[tender frost]

follow the opener

1 rupture at least, can do 2 if its going to live a while

[raven sage]

awsome

[raven sage]

got it let me try this this time i think the problem is when they are bursting pack im trying spreed my dot but its wrong when you have a such gp

i can just spreed 2 rupture and dont put too much efort and focus on spreeding

[sharp lake]

It’s felt like a huge amount of getting big overall as sub is how well your cooldowns line up with big gathers.

[raven sage]

and doing my dmaage

[vague dragon]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[sharp lake]

Spreading Rupture during gather is pretty huge but you’ll definitely lose more damage sitting on cooldowns spreading rupture than having several up

[vague dragon]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[earnest skiff]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[keen fossil]

!symbols

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[coarse hound]

@vale pine asking a little real advice. I know it likely doesnt matter and is preference. Given current state of Assass and Sub, for a former mythic raider now playing casually but in a mythic prog guild with friends, mostly play M+ mostly no higher the 13s . Currently geared for Assassin, about 706. Worth swapping over to Sub for easier more consistent dam right now ?

[craggy onyx]

with these macro you cannot use again symbols to refresh ?

[swift tinsel]

You aren’t really refreshing symbols, just using to supercharge secret technique

[hollow spear]

If you want easy damage, you should play sin

[lapis hatch]

Idk if that’s what he was asking lol

[swift tinsel]

“For easier more consistent damage”

Sounds like it is

[lapis hatch]

Sub and sin are both competitive and both easy damage

[vague dragon]

is really a good thing to maccro tea with dance in key or its better to use it manually ?

[swift tinsel]

Sub is all planning and executing burst windows to line up with add spawns or vuln windows, sin is struggling to stay awake during an encounter

But once you have sub timings it’s cake

Your dances are almost always the same

With coup and shadowcraft resets being your rng factors

[coarse hound]

I find the planning and all of that fun, and have been on Sub last two patches so I guess i think of trickster and not managing stalkers mark just less of a pain

[swift tinsel]

If you like the planning aspect sub will be extremely rewarding this tier

[lapis hatch]

They’re both better in different scenarios and difficulty is similar. Sub harder in raid sin harder in m+

But you can play either one in all content and be good

[swift tinsel]

There are a few fights/phases where sub stands head and shoulders above anyone else

[lapis hatch]

^

[coarse hound]

Right and Im not gonna do anymore than chill heroics and alt mythic with homies starting next week

so

[swift tinsel]

This season really highlights the spec strengths so if you’ve liked it before there’s a good chance you’ll love it

[coarse hound]

Im just trying to decide

[lapis hatch]

Subs more fun imo

[vague dragon]

is it really a good thing to maccro tea with dance in m+ or its better to use it manually ?

[lapis hatch]

Just play both tho

[swift tinsel]

Macro

[lapis hatch]

Doesn’t matter

[vale pine]

it is worth switching because sub is fun. But if you like assassination, no reason to not play it

[lapis hatch]

Just talent swap

[swift tinsel]

Just make sure you relog if going from fatebound to sub

To fix cold blood bug

[coarse hound]

hmm I appreciate you homies

[swift tinsel]

I’ll take any excuse I can get to talk about how fun sub is lol

[coarse hound]

I agree it is fun. Im always torn between the two

[crystal sinew]

!cd

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 30 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[crystal sinew]

Is there a rule of thumb of where I should hold symbols and dance before flag to ensure I have the 2 sets for CDs? 30 secs?

[swift tinsel]

Roughly 30 yeah

[vale pine]

you want to have roughly 1.5 charges of dance and at least 1 charge of symbols and 10 sec left on the 2nd charge

so you can ensure 2x symbols/dance

[crystal sinew]

Ok. Struggling a little bit to find that balance.

[cunning notch]

when spamming black powder we always wanna use shadowstrike as a builder when possible and a shuriken storm when not ? correct ?

[swift tinsel]

Strike in dance, storm outside

[cunning notch]

gotcha

[swift tinsel]

Only time you storm in dance is with blades between coups

Or if you have sht banked to get 6+ cp from a single storm

[cunning notch]

the rotten into shadowstrike is always more damage than a storm ?

on like

7 mobs ?

[swift tinsel]

You’ll have plenty of fw out from gathering unless you have really low crit

Storm gains a lot of passive crit from talents

[cunning notch]

ight okok

so it doesnt benefit as much as strike

[swift tinsel]

Strike is a big button bc of its damage and ability to proc unseen blade

Which does a lot of damage and grants stacks

[cunning notch]

yeye i see i see

tnx for the info king 👑

[hollow spear]

Are we the fotm rogues rn?

[tender frost]

does anyone know at what stack count prism beats forge at equal ilvl

[swift tinsel]

We might be lol

At least partial fotm flavor

[cunning notch]

yellow best flavor tbh

anywhere

[feral knot]

piss?

[cunning notch]

yes

[hollow spear]

I feel like I'm Bill Murray in Groundhog Day

Fuu getting the Whispyr treatment

[cunning notch]

where does the name Fuu come from

[manic salmon]

inc mandatory assa aura buffs

[dim trail]

HI all, im running araz + nether, but i macro both so 1 SB burst with araz and the seecond SB burst with netherprism charged, its that ok?

[alpine wraith]

wonder how long until they fix spatter

maybe they also fix sec tech and blades and other things with singular

and we become the funnelers

[swift tinsel]

And make the rest of ds tree function

[steel jolt]

fix what?

[swift tinsel]

In general

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[swift tinsel]

Take your pick lol

[alpine wraith]

tbh if only the 4p was not so comically bnad

[steel jolt]

i'm asking what you think needs to be fixed about spatter

[alpine wraith]

and the 2p got nerfed for no reason ahaha

[subtle tulip]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[swift tinsel]

It not transferring via singular

[swift tinsel]

Yeah this was so weird lol

[alpine wraith]

it does not work with singular focus my friend

rn before it did

[steel jolt]

oh ya it was cool how they fixed the additional damage but broke singular focus

[cunning notch]

is sword spec also bugged ? we could have the trifecta

[manic salmon]

you can do everything in a single macro

[alpine wraith]

outlaw has many bugs too

[cunning notch]

lesgooo

#1 gang

[lavish rose]

isnt the 4 set trickster bonus basically just a riff on the bug that already existed xdd

[hollow spear]

Outlaw is basically one big bug

[manic salmon]

it gave them the idea

[lavish rose]

classic

[manic salmon]

imagine if it was still in the game

4 coups

[signal moth]

does dslice work for sub?

[lavish rose]

lmao

[hollow spear]

Good idea tho

[manic salmon]

[swift tinsel]

Yea

[hollow spear]

Whoever is responsible for that bug last season is goated

[lavish rose]

idk u can test it and also test patchwerk with 8 bosses or whatever

[vale pine]

yes

[manic salmon]

i mean no one is technically "responsible"

it was something that existed since tww released

[lavish rose]

was it even feasible to get double coups as sub tho? i only really did it on outlaw

[manic salmon]

No

[warm marlin]

only possible due to outlaw gcd reduction

[manic salmon]

outlaw could only do it because they have gcd reduction

[lavish rose]

oh

yea yea

[manic salmon]

coup is fixed 1.2s so what outlaw did was get a refund and send another coup while the previous one is still ongoing

and you wouldnt lose the coup buff until the animation of the first one finished

[warm marlin]

that fractillus log is absolutely insane

my god

50% proc on the 2p, mostly in cds, delve belt proc perfectly overlapped with every single cd set, weapon enchants proccing in 3/4 blades windows

[vale pine]

just be lucky and you can match it^^

[warm marlin]

[alpine wraith]

just proc ??¿¿

dont worry blizz makes sure no top log reigns forever

with their biweekly 3% buffs

[warm marlin]

justly rewarded for playing sub on fractillus

cannot lie

[karmic harbor]

What is this

[warm marlin]

delve belt proc

[pale ravine]

any idea why the even the cold blood /ST macro wouldnt work?
#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique
it says spell not learned.
Even though i have it in my bar and can press it there?

[warm marlin]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[karmic harbor]

I'm ngl I just read the sub wowhead guide I have no idea what the intricacies of the class is

[pale ravine]

....+

[wheat edge]

learning sub in m+ feels so based cause you just do the same shit as you do in raid

[vale pine]

luck ^^

[wheat edge]

ethical class

[vale pine]

i mean its not a class interaction

its basically just a proc that gives stats

like a random trinket

and the graph just shows how the proc is exactly during the time of burst

[small mantle]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[vale pine]

but if you struggle to understand subtlety (in general), let me quick explain the spec

[karmic harbor]

Yeah after he said delve belt I realised that's not really sub related. But like, I don't even know what causes coup to proc (I don't read talents) so my knowledge is bad

Definitely a me issue

[vale pine]

you basically have a lot of small cooldowns you stack up

and every 90 secounds you can align them to your more impactful cooldowns (flagelaltion and shadow blades)

which is basically what most optimizations are around

[karmic harbor]

I can play sub at a midwit level but idk if I'll ever parse orange on mythic

[vale pine]

you optimize this 90 sec window

and try to be efficient outside to be able to not waste cooldowns

[manic salmon]

it comes with experience

[karmic harbor]

Like, my issue is that I don't know min maxxy stuff (if that exists) and I refuse to press as twice if I'm at 5cp in dance

[alpine wraith]

it will be very hard to parse as sub in M

[vale pine]

^

[manic salmon]

stuff like forgeweaver, sub will fall off the less adds live

same with soulbinder

[hazy breach]

Eh

Sub is like the best spec at sniping them before anybody else gets to touch them

[signal moth]

the biggest thing ive found with sub is knowing when your cp are going to be max the next time you use an ability.. and you use a combo builder instead lol

[hazy breach]

Ig dev is better

[manic salmon]

and ele

[hazy breach]

But its close

Nah

[karmic harbor]

You can know this in advance? It isn't random???

Lmfao

[hazy breach]

Yes

[warm marlin]

you can get a huge amount of burst out as sub within 1.5s of adds spawning

[signal moth]

it is random for me lol

[karmic harbor]

HOW

[hazy breach]

It is not random

Its based on shadow technique stacks

[manic salmon]

shadow technique

[hazy breach]

If you have 7 or more you will get refund

[signal moth]

it is random for me (because i have no idea what makes it not random)

ohhh

its 7?

[hazy breach]

Technically its your max cp

But yes 7

[manic salmon]

in symbols if you reach 7 shadow technique stacks you get a refund when you use a spender

talent shadowcraft

capstone

[signal moth]

ok it is no longer random

i was tryiing to figure out how to tell this

i was going to message devlin later to see what i look for on his wa lol

ez.. not even random

what noob said it was random

[karmic harbor]

So symbols has to be active?

[manic salmon]

correct

[karmic harbor]

Yeah stuff like this

[manic salmon]

read the talents :p

[karmic harbor]

Idk if its in the wowhead guide tbh and I haven't read iv or method

[signal moth]

slowly building my sub resume

[vale pine]

#subtlety message

^ i explained shadowcraft / sht (the other day) if you follow this

[tepid trellis]

tbf the talent also explains it

[karmic harbor]

If I'm using whispyrs wa for sub am I trolling

I know he's like an assa guy

[vale pine]

probably fine

[graceful rock]

So when running TFD, how do I deal with this awkward time where my CB ST is up but theres like ~1s left on dance

[vale pine]

weakaura sets are personal preference

[signal moth]

I have to say.. I love sin but sub just has this really smooth rotation where you feel like you're doing something...

[hazy breach]

Press sectech

[signal moth]

!plater

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

we don't have plater profile suggestions

[grim pawn]

how come you SS and black powder at 4 targets this season when it was 8 last season?

[hazy breach]

They buffed bp

[graceful rock]

but what if dance falls

[signal moth]

what you use?

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

i don't use plater

[warm marlin]

mash dance so they hit in it anyway

[vale pine]

but a modified version of nameplatekai

[signal moth]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-gif-1807502725802114204

[vale pine]

it has better cpu performance and does all i need from nameplates

mob coloring

[manic salmon]

you dont really need plater

[signal moth]

my eyes hurt without plater

i need it pretty

[open coral]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

i would be surprised if plater like it exists now

will survive the blizz adddon purge

[wheat edge]

the inbuilt one they are making looks pretty nice

current one is horrid

[manic salmon]

i might be slain for using default elvui nameplates with some changes

[signal moth]

the problem i have is that weakaura will die and im so used to certain stuff that even adjusting is just dog shit for a 20 year old game lol

[hazy breach]

They NEED to add nameplae colouring to their baseline ui

[vale pine]

^

[hazy breach]

Having big mobs with a certain colour is insanely useful as assa

You just always target the purple mob (with jundies)

And you know what mobs are doing casts etc

[manic salmon]

uoh big juicy mob...

[swift tinsel]

Yep ez to pick out mobs for focus kicks with jundies

Love it

[hollow spear]

And you can mald if the shitter mob nameplates disappear with a ret pally in your group

[vale pine]

its in general just a very good way to visually distinguish important and less important targets

[manic salmon]

Venture Co. contractors vs Venture Co. architect

[swift tinsel]

Also if they have focus mobs/casters have higher frame strata

[manic salmon]

architect being the smallest shittiest goblin

[vale pine]

you know going into the pull:

• color 1 --- is the casters
• color 2 --- is important prio targets
• default coloring --- can be killed last or cleaved

[swift tinsel]

Added that to my player profile and it’s quite nice

[vale pine]

whatever color design you decide on

[swift tinsel]

I do need to blacklist the affix orbs tho

[vale pine]

is coloring default for plater

or do you need to import it?

[vagrant fulcrum]

should i care about fw on secondary soul hunters to the one im focusing?

[vale pine]

(i haven't used plater in a while)

[swift tinsel]

Import as a script

Or mod

You can also go 1 by 1 and set them yourself

[hollow spear]

Getting nailgunned right outside of melee range of the next target

[swift tinsel]

Which is exceedingly tedious

[vale pine]

alright, so nameplatekai is actually better

[manic salmon]

i had peak experience today

[vale pine]

as it has coloring in my default

[swift tinsel]

How do they handle it

Ah interesting

[manic salmon]

double nailgun into 2 venture co surveyor bombs

with cloak down

i was just like

[vale pine]

it has some other not perfect defaults and does not allow scripting like plater

[manic salmon]

[signal moth]

can someone explain to me once again why this is a thing

I get that using storm is to not proc the coup de grace but it seems on my tests in game it uses them almost instantly back to back? how is this possible from the sim

[swift tinsel]

Can you set nameplate color based on buff/debuff presence?

[vale pine]

i can login in 5 minutes or so and show you

[wheat edge]

cloak evasion vanish feint healthpot healthstone hearthstone alt f4 combo bis there

[vale pine]

the 4p proc disallow the stacking of the coup buff

[manic salmon]

all used on previous pull

[swift tinsel]

Should be home in just a bit so that would be cool

[vale pine]

so we use storm instead of strike

[manic salmon]

end my life twin

[vale pine]

to not waste unseen blade procs

thats all there is to it

[signal moth]

is this because ST is 1gcd away from that?

[swift tinsel]

As much as I love plater (which is a lot) it can def get a bit heavy sometimes

[wheat edge]

you also only storm there during blades if your first coup doesnt refund combo points (right?)

[swift tinsel]

Honestly can’t say I’ve ever heard of nameplatekai

[wheat edge]

no need to build if u get a refund

[swift tinsel]

Is it like the shadowuf to elvui comparison between it and plater?

With suf being lighter/less cpu load

[winged kernel]

how bad would using eviscerate over bp be

[vale pine]

its just to avoid wasting procs

[vale pine]

yes

its like 1/6th or less of the cpu cycles

[signal moth]

i dont know what that means but is it like this?

is this readable lol

[vale pine]

plater is noticably worse in performance

[swift tinsel]

Okay yeah that sounds really compelling on its own

[vale pine]

let me quick login on a new profile

[wheat edge]

bro is fighting air

[vale pine]

to get default settings kai

[signal moth]

fuck the air bruv

i really dont get this coup/unseen blade lol

[swift tinsel]

Maybe that’ll be my afternoon project, setting up nameplates

[vale pine]

okay its simple, there is unseen blades, which when it procs stacks a buff for coup de grace called i think escallating blades

[near compass]

at how many stacks i want to use netherprism in cd's over lily? or just rotate them ?

[signal moth]

wait ok, so i use storm so that i can use the 'buff' consumed on a spender rather than a builder?

[vale pine]

now this buff can stack up to 4 and once it reaches 4 you can use coup

now unseen blades has a 20 sec internal timer

[stoic token]

is there ever a situation in m+(aoe) where you SS in dance for dance macabre

[dusty totem]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[vale pine]

but there are 2 ways to get more procs

the first one is secret technique

disorienting strikes (a hero talent)

gives you 2 free procs of unseen blade after

then there is also thousand cuts

another hero talent

which gives you random resets ^^

additionally to complicate things

the two set bonus of the new tier set gives each proc a chance to proc a 2nd time

so you can get 2 stacks instead of 1 from a proc

[signal moth]

is it already complicated ngl.. i have absolutely no clue what you are saying and i will need to read this 55 times

[vale pine]

now the 4 set bonus is the problem

[golden harbor]

Backstab and shadowstrike can give unseen blades. Every 4 = coup.
If you are already at 4 and gain one it does nothing.
So we use shurikan storm to not gain one (putting the proc maybe on cooldown) while we have max stacks (4, coup ready)

[vale pine]

the 4 set allows you to use coup again after you use it

but

escallating blades stays on 4 stacks

during the buff of the tier set

[signal moth]

so you want to storm after youve activated it?

[vale pine]

so if you proc any of the 3 mentioned:

• naturally (20 sec icd)
• disoriented strikes
• thousand cuts

all stacks you would generate go to waste

soo now why storm?

unlike shadowstrike and backstab

[narrow lark]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

it can't prco unseen blade

[coral bear]

Hello everyone

[vale pine]

you could, in theory also use things like shiv

as it also does not proc it

[wheat edge]

shuriken toss?

[vale pine]

but storm makes a lot more sense as it does at leats something

[vale pine]

hi

[signal moth]

so from a usage i would proc coup once, then use storm before the 2nd usage at all times?

[wheat edge]

only if you have to build

[vale pine]

so in order to prevent this waste

[coral bear]

Sorry that this is random,

Havent played wow in a very long time, trying to get back to it.
Trying to learn the indepth of Rogue, prob Sub rather than assassination

[vale pine]

we use storm between 2 coup casts

[coral bear]

Is there like a section somewhere i can get indepth details ofe verything?

[vale pine]

if we have blades up

(so we get full cp from storm)

[coral bear]

hi hi

[vale pine]

can also do with more targets

[signal moth]

100% of the time?

[willow bobcat]

Only with blades up

[vale pine]

well only if shadow blades is up

or if you have more targets

so if you don't you just strike

[willow bobcat]

And only if you have to build CP for the second coup

[vale pine]

^

[signal moth]

right ok

[coral bear]

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

Isnt

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Symbols of Death, null
a good idea too? since u should always use symbols with shdaowdance?

[vale pine]

true

[signal moth]

fuck me make sub more confusing

[vale pine]

if you get a cp refund

you can just coup-coup

[wheat edge]

whats the reason behind the delay on coup combo point refund btw, is it just the longer gcd?

[vale pine]

no need to build cp between

[signal moth]

what is the dps loss from not using storm ever?

[willow pawn]

I’m sure macroing blades with symbols is not bad

[willow bobcat]

You dont want to macro Symbols to dance

[vale pine]

its a bug

[coral bear]

Y doe

[wheat edge]

ah makes more sense

[coral bear]

U should always try to smybols with sd no?

[willow bobcat]

Because you will waste uptime on it and also not have super charged cp for Secret technique sometimes

[rigid sparrow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[coral bear]

What if i only use SD when Secret technique is up?

[near compass]

at how many stacks i want to use netherprism in cd's over lily? or just rotate them ?

[willow pawn]

What do you guys think about sending manaforge trinket right before cold blooded sectech in SB window?

Instead of beginning

[willow bobcat]

Thats generally how the spec plays out, but in your opener/burst windows having Symbols cast at the same time as Dance can mess it up and you will refresh Symbols before you need to and lose uptime and sometimes not have the super charged Cp for Sectec

[coral bear]

Man i really need coaching

Just restared wow

and everything is so new

[hasty lily]

When are we suipposed to black powder?

[willow bobcat]

Just takes practice.

[coral bear]

Ye but w coaching everything is so faster, do u know if some people offer coaching? or for a decent price

[swift tinsel]

@vale pine with KAI the nameplates seem to be quite 'bouncy,' is there a way to limit that?

[elder isle]

is there any good reason not to use vanish shadowstrike before you go into Shadowdance in the opener?

[swift tinsel]

appears to be related to friendly name collision with healthbars

[hazy breach]

Well you'd delay your cds by 2 seconds

So no point to do it

[willow bobcat]

I know people do, servers like The Collective have class/spec coaches you can rent but ive never done it.

[vale pine]

probably some options

[elder isle]

ok cool cool thats what i assumed but i dont find a good place to use it otherwise except like for chain pull in m+ so i didnt know

[hazy breach]

Ye vanish is just nearly pointless

Even with premed

Its whatever

[coral bear]

I just want something to start on the right track

u know

[swift tinsel]

I do notice the ~70MB reduction from switching though, this is quite nice

they move very fluidly as well

[vale pine]

probably this

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'm experimenting with that and the Stacking Overlap settings

[warm marlin]

wowhead/icyveins guides are free, a coach is mainly good once you have most of the basics down and need help with more advanced stuff. just starting out a coach is just going to basically read off a guide anyway

[willow bobcat]

You can DM Eleem and see what they charge.

[swift tinsel]

the target highlight is a really nice feature

definitely going to have some fun tinkering with settings, thanks for the info!

[coral bear]

Thank u Geoffar

[hasty lily]

do we always BP on 4+ targs? and only send evisc when Coupe is up?

[swift tinsel]

looks like it was just needing to hide friendly nameplates to get rid of it entirely

[vale pine]

i have some local visual changes to it

[unborn lagoon]

!dance

[vale pine]

but the default is good enough

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'm poking around the default color scheme and I think its pretty solid for default settings

[vale pine]

e.g. for this options, i use those

[unborn lagoon]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

Ooo yeah this is good to know, the spacing is a bit weird by default

need to set them to always show names as well instead of just on mouseover

nice for visual declutter, can be problematic otherwise for my brain

[vale pine]

ye, it has some shortcomming

e.g. i have the name color diffrent usually, but you need to adjust that in code

and i would probably do a fork of the addon if i had the time to extend it to my needs

outside of small tweaks

[swift tinsel]

also having the ability to have Test Bars/widgets would be very nice

[vale pine]

i rly like the rainbow stuff too

on the "kiill me immidiatyl"

[swift tinsel]

I haven't gotten to that part yet haha

might take it into a follower dungeon to see how it plays beyond just target dummies

[celest juniper]

If I have Netherprism and Cursed Stone Idol what is optimal in keys for double on use trinkets?

[limpid sage]

P sure ForeverGuy sells coaching

Is in his bio anyway

[scarlet stump]

is there any difference between sec tec first then blades vs blades then sec tec ?

[limpid sage]

Nope

It’s something people did before because sectec wasn’t buffed by blades

[subtle tulip]

!GUIDE

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[timber hornet]

you need to be at 2xsymbol charge 2xshadow dance when flagelation is comming out of cd?

[vale pine]

forge + prism

if you don't have the combo, just prism + passive

[hazy breach]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[hazy breach]

Oh no its not that one

!cds

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 30 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[signal moth]

inbetween these cds

you just use symbols with ST right

kind of raw dog it?

[little scaffold]

you still send dance between flag windows

[vale pine]

you usually use dance too

raw symbols + secret casts are super rare

[past wyvern]

evening bois and girls, may i have rotation for sub tornado + tea AoE and st?

[vale pine]

single targets - between cooldowns as filler

aoe - during symbols, preferably outside of cooldowns

[past wyvern]

and can i have marocses pls_

[hazy breach]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[slow gorge]

i have Unyielding Netherprism and Unyielding Netherprism mythic, if i sim, i need to take the 2. But, is their something better to do like, do i prio lily or NU ?

[vale pine]

prism is the best trinket this season

so if you can get your hands on it, its a very good choice

(i still run a normal evrsion)

*version

@swift tinsel The addon also has a option to unhook default blizz stuff, while the option increases performance it also breaks certain things (e.g. nameplate timers like on the community feast in DF), so be careful if you use the option

[limpid sage]

Haven’t actually been in a situation where I’ve done that since last season

[swift tinsel]

is that the Performance Mode option?

[vale pine]

ye

[swift tinsel]

currently fighting with omnicc lol

what would you recommend to set as so it doesn't break too much?

[vale pine]

i think nameplatekai is the only addon which competes with plater sadly

[swift tinsel]

or is it not that noticable

[vale pine]

just keep it on default

is fine

would just not change it to the extreme option as i did in the past and wondered why certain things did not show

[swift tinsel]

I need to set up a separate omnicc profile for this one so that it has different cd font settings than the regular ones on target frame

bc I like having small icons on nameplates so the font looks huge atm lol

like comically large lol

[queen kraken]

we just started souls on mythic and i checked out grams vod... i never ever had like 3 secs on tfd left with st up again... i feel like im doing something horribly bad... sometimes im too quick so that i overuse a ss but idk ... depresso feeling 😂

[jade kernel]

Hi guys I have a noob question I’m still learning sub rogue, when im outside of shadow dance, when do I use black powder??

[vale pine]

4+ targets

[slow gorge]

my bad i didnt write well my message xd i have Prism heroic and lily mythic

[vale pine]

oh

prism > lilly

[slow gorge]

raidbot say i need to equip the 2

[jade kernel]

And how about shurikens, I use when there are 3+ targets?

[vale pine]

you would not mix the two usually

[slow gorge]

but isnt it weird to equip 2 active?

[vale pine]

yes 3+

[jade kernel]

Thanks bro

[vale pine]

i would not bother unless its prism and forge

lilly isn't bad but its not as strong as forge or prism and it does not benefit as much from sequencing it like the two mentioned

[karmic harbor]

Does backstab proc the thing we shuriken storm inbetween coup for?

[vale pine]

yes

backstab and strike do

storm does not, it is why we use it instead

(unseen blades)

[slow gorge]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bhYm6FvT5rhpm5Xy9rfssU (i know i dont have the right craft im from assa i want to change) But you see raidbot pretty sad to loose 25k dps

[warm marlin]

ascendance is perfectly fine on sub

[karmic harbor]

My assa sim was 100k more than my sub sim, but I play sub better so do more damage

What I like about sub is that dmg outside of shd just doesn't matter

[queen kraken]

if i hit 4th unseen blade for coup and im at 5+cp but a normal dance/st is also rdy, do i coup first or dance=>5cp st => bs=> coup?

[slow gorge]

yeah but i dont have enough versatility to play sub for my progress

i need to craft my neck next week at least

[karmic harbor]

Do you not have any gems?

What are you progressing

[slow gorge]

i have done 8/8dimensius heroic with my guild

and will go mythic

raid

omg gems yes

ive never done that but i dont know what to buy to put gems on my items i didnt find the information xd

sorry im a bit casu

[slow gorge]

should i recraft my wrist to have the spells damage on it too?

[uncut socket]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[karmic harbor]

If you search jeweller on the ah it should pop up

https://www.wowhead.com/item=213777/magnificent-jewelers-setting

[willow fulcrum]

Fuu's M+ build on the spreadsheet doesn't use First Dance, I thought that was a must have talent though?

[karmic harbor]

@slow gorge for your guild I don't think it matters what you play tbh, whatever you find comfortable. If you want more vers gem your rings and neck, recraft your dagger to vers/mas instead of crit/mas and you'll be fine

Seems like your guild only has 1 rogue so you should be in for every boss anyways!

[swift tinsel]

@vale pine do you happen to know the name of the container for auras in the addon? Framestack isn't picking it up cleanly so I can't seem to snag it that way

for plater it was something like PlaterMainAuraIcon but it doesn't seem to like NamePlateAuraIcon

[vale pine]

no idea

[swift tinsel]

hm, I'll keep poking around. ty though for the insight with setting stuff up

[vale pine]

tho for weakauras, you can do this

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/nameplatekai

[swift tinsel]

yeah, that's where I pulled the NamePlate prefix from and was hoping that would work

actually gives me an idea

[real delta]

In general how many Shadow Dances should be used between Shadow Blades/Flagellation to make sure there are always 2 charges going into the next major CD window? 2? 3?

[topaz venture]

if u guys are playing m+ predominantly, which type are u simming the most, patch or ds?

[last sorrel]

i hate asking but if i use prism on blades when do i lily

just on any sectec?

[queen kraken]

id say u use lily until u get a good stack on prism, depending on pulls for example u can go with 9 or just wait till 18

[last sorrel]

alrighty thank you

[swift tinsel]

had to disable a bunch of stuff but it was just UnitFrame.BuffFrame

feelin dopey now lol

[cunning acorn]

what is the current build for mplus? I see on murlok.io some builds without thistle tea and with rotten

[clever delta]

rank 8 on hutners and parse 93

really mad

and boomie get boots

rip

[rustic mortar]

if im in a normal shadow dance window and get only 5 CP from SS do i SS a second time or just evi with 5 ?

[cunning notch]

!build

!talents

!talent

this build good yes ?

or the rotten is just busted and we must run it ?

for m+ !

[open coral]

im having a hard time fitting my 2nd cb sec tech on nexus king, were bringing the soak to the edge, any tips

[dusk stone]

its not bugged no

[cunning notch]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[warm marlin]

it should already be cast by the time the first soak comes out no?

[open coral]

im one gcd off for some reason

[dusk stone]

its the second sectec in dance

[clever delta]

so im salhadaar now, i see people palying elusiv

why is that?

there is not one shot mechanics?

[warm marlin]

cheat doesnt save you in phase 1

you get mcd instead

[clever delta]

i see

ty

[warm marlin]

and the banishment dot hurts

[zealous hedge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

i dont think cheat is actually a better talent its just safer

[signal moth]

when you put a small mini-target for the season to be rank 1 on realm then you look and see its tomelvis

cool

[leaden prairie]

you on draenor cuh ?

[signal moth]

yh cuh

[leaden prairie]

good luck cuh

i believe in you

[signal moth]

i dont

Im not raiding this tier so might full yolo no life m+ lol

[undone heart]

hoiw much mastery is too much mastery

im sitting at 94%

or 18k mastery ig'

[swift tinsel]

I usually hover around 20k

depends on the rest of your gear

[dusk stone]

104% but its not really that easy losing large amounts of it

[undone heart]

im sitting at 18k mastery 11k crit and vers, and 8k haste

[dusk stone]

do you hate yourself?

[warm marlin]

what the robot tells you is good (you probably should move as much of that haste into vers as possible)

[dusk stone]

because haste hates sub

[undone heart]

i dont exactly have the options to change my haste

[void ocean]

how can u see in wcl what was the dps in certain moment of a fight

[dusk stone]

haste is actually so bad you pick lower ilvl without it than higher ilvl with it

701 with haste is 20k better than 681 without haste

like get rid of haste it is legitimately half the stat of other things

[undone heart]

if i change gear to get rid of haste i get 17k crit, 16k mastery, 11.5k vers, 3k haste

[maiden slate]

Hello...
I speak Spanish and use a translator.
Does anyone have a guide, especially for Subtlety rotation? Because many people put 8M of overal in a 10-level dungeon, and I put 4.5M. How often should I burst, manage my skills, etc.?
Thank you very much.

[dusk stone]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[warm marlin]

probably better but only raidbots can tell you for sure

[dusk stone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vURj5PzU5-A

[dusk stone]

goal should be zero but yeah if gearing is limited its ok i guess

[split garden]

What do you guys use to track shadow techinique

[undone heart]

so basically try to get as low haste as possible and other stats are kinda whatever

[maiden slate]

11.1? and 11.2?

[alpine wraith]

i also did a guide for this patch

[dusk stone]

if agility is like 22 damage per points, haste is 11 damage per point

its that bad

[alpine wraith]

but you may want to also read the written ones

[dusk stone]

what i sent you was correct dont worry about numbers

[maiden slate]

thank you

[buoyant kelp]

hey, maybe stupid question: when I use this macro Secret Technique goes on CD, but Cold Blood does not.

#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique

Do I need to do something special? I am only pressing it once? Is the macro not correct like this? I found this on multiple guides (wowhead, method)

[candid raven]

The soak on Forgeweaver mythic is tilting me. I wanna burst 🙁

[dusk stone]

!cb bug

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[dusk stone]

ok

There is a bug with fatebound, it breaks macros relog to fix it

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[buoyant kelp]

thanks 🙂

[sharp seal]

one question, our rogue said he is not able to apply instant + crippling poison for myth Araz.
is there something special with sub rogues currently(maybe some rotational thing)?

[candid raven]

You lose the raid debuff, if you do

But if you are fine with that, you can

[sharp seal]

but nothing else other than that?

[candid raven]

No

[sharp seal]

thanks

[warm marlin]

it is only spread in aoe by a spell cast outside cds

well sometimes cast in cds

so that could be why they would say that

[candid raven]

Does Sec Tech not apply it?

But yea, chances are it won't be applied

[warm marlin]

no only storm/bp

[signal moth]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[edgy zenith]

okay, this is surely a small gain:
going into boss with TFD and coup up. SS > flag > rupture > dance > backstab > coup > SoD (before second part of Coup hits, I don't know if this works but if it does sick) > SS > sectech > shuriken > coup. I haven't actually done it, so it might be super cursed with second sectech timing in CDs, but getting the second coup with the supercharge is good, no? i need a gamer to answer pls

[swift tinsel]

you lose the cdr of two coups going into that sectech

[devout jackal]

I may have missed it, but is there ever a time we pandemic SoD?

[edgy zenith]

why two?

[swift tinsel]

only if it coincides with using it to supercharge sectech

[marsh path]

Guys, having the forge trinket and the prism, how should I use them? Do I burst with the forge and then burst when the prism is stacked?