subtlety

[hushed seal]

Hello! Can someone help me with the macro:

#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique

... I can't understand why Cold Blood is being used

[vale pine]

it might be minimally worse than the best build but it does not make a diffrence in your dps overall

[vale pine]

you mean why it isn't used?

[hushed seal]

isn't being used*

[vale pine]

there are 2 reasons possible

the first one is

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[vale pine]

the bug

the second one

is that you don't have it on your stealth bar

[hollow spear]

One bad decision in a pull will have a bigger impact on your dps than any talent choice you can make between our "meta" options

[coarse flare]

is there a way to make a macro that allows me to shadowstep to mouseover but if there is no mouseover it goes to my target instead? I cant seem to make one that works how i want it to

[acoustic matrix]

#showtooltip Kick
/cast [@focus,exists][@target] kick

Replace kick by Shadowstep

that should work

and focus by mouseover

[coarse flare]

ok ill try ty

[vale pine]

think he wants mouseover

not focus

[hushed seal]

Thanks a lot everyone, I'll give it a try. 🙂

[keen dome]

#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover, nodead, exists][] Shadowstep

This is what i use

[acoustic matrix]

yeah he can just replace focus

[vale pine]

so @mouseover instead of @focus

[hollow spear]

I'm turning into a focus macro truther, mouseover fudged me over one time too many

[vale pine]

So something like

/cast [@mouseover] [@target] Shadowstep```

[hollow spear]

In raid, I just focus a dk and rely on them pressing death's advance

[acoustic matrix]

lmao

[keen dome]

What if they don't

[acoustic matrix]

actually a smart move

if they wan't good parse they do

[hollow spear]

I whisper them naughty messages

[keen dome]

Nice

[acoustic matrix]

If anyone got a few minutes for a quick log check, I'd be very grateful 🙏
#subtlety message

[hollow spear]

I sometimes do raid reviews, but m+ is too much of a pain in the butt tbh

[limpid sage]

same, just with [mod:shift, @focus] as well

[hushed seal]

@vale pine @wicked jolt Thanks a lot for the help, the WeakAura made me realize it was a bug.

[dusk stone]

hows it work out to be worse, because FW is like a huge thing to not have. I understand you will have it for the front end of the pull but not for the later end really - where your burst is

[marble comet]

does it matter on if my weapon enchant is on mainhand or offhand?

[dusk stone]

you can enchant both

[vale pine]

you use storm in dance for coup

[marble comet]

ye but i mean the order

[vale pine]

and critical strike is not super low

[marble comet]

that stonebound is on offhand ?

[vale pine]

so other nodes give more benefits

[dusk stone]

i tried testing it out in keys myself, i found it to be pretty inconsistent

we're just dropping TR for 1 finality rank right?

[hollow spear]

Does the the sim showing 1% less already do the storm between coup during a normal dance with >= 4 targets or is that not in yet?

[vale pine]

the apl change is not in yet

it might be neutral on 4+ already

6+ is when it showed a small win with the setup i tested

[turbid edge]

Do u storm between coups on ST too?

[steady dune]

are we still doing 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 for the SD + Sec Tec combos between CDs?

[tepid trellis]

in blades yes

[turbid edge]

Ty!

[sacred gull]

shadow blades increase by 20% only auto attacks or also any spells ?

[tepid trellis]

everything

[sacred gull]

ok ty

so that's why we use it just before first ST

[tepid trellis]

yep

[sacred gull]

and in theory, SoD should always be aligned with Sadow dance ? A macro with both makes sense ?

[tepid trellis]

nope

they are not used at the exact same time

and its due to supercharger

the goal with SoD is to always supercharger your sectechs

which means the 2nd SoD in major cooldowns is not always used the same time as the 2nd dance

[sacred gull]

hmm ok I see, I will have to practice then and see how CDs align ^^

[hollow spear]

That might have an impact on the TR figures

[lilac pendant]

What's the science on Storm between the 2 coups?

[tepid trellis]

to not munch unseen blade procs

[past cobalt]

Not wasting hidden blade procs

Unseen hidden whatever it is

[runic hull]

what is the rotation/priority to focus on in aoe off cds? I've been having a hard time keeping up the dmg after my cds (clearly I dont expect it to be the same, but i know it can be better)

[tepid trellis]

rupture shit

then just BP as a finisher

sub outside of shadow dances

does fuck all for dmg

[runic hull]

and should I use Dance as soon as I get it back considering the cds are on cooldown?

[turbid edge]

So in weekly 10s, sub feels bad? Because pug tanks don't pull massive around cds and then everything dies in 10 globals?

[bleak night]

idk feels fine to me

[hollow spear]

It feels better with big pulls

But definitely not bad with suboptimal pulls

You'll just have to learn how to adjust

[turbid edge]

Oh ok

[rotund rock]

is it common to be holding dance symbols for up to 30sec b4 flag comes back

i find myself in a situation where i have sectec and like 1.75 charges of symbols and 75% of a dance charge about 30 sec out from cds and not really sure what to press at that moment

[tepid trellis]

if you end up overcapping a decent bit before your major cds

[rotund rock]

roughly like this https://i.imgur.com/K0oeSkq.png should i just hold or send like a symbold sectec no dance

[tepid trellis]

that one seems fine

you need roughly 1.5 dance charges

for when flag is ready

[rotund rock]

ye but do i sit on symbols and sectec here as well?

[tepid trellis]

you can probably do a raw sectech

but no symbols

you need 2 of them for your burst

[rotund rock]

yea i think ive sent a symbols here in the past and just barely had it back in time

kinda sus so ill just hold thx

also in this give or take 30 sec of downtime trying to hold coup for dance is correct?

[tepid trellis]

20

[rotund rock]

hmm ok

[tepid trellis]

and not for dance

for your flag burst

[rotund rock]

for cds i meant

[tepid trellis]

yes

you sit on coup for 20 before major cds

[rotund rock]

honestly im like not locked in enough to remember to do this in a pull

i end up forgeting xd

[runic hull]

and when you sit on stuff for cds should you just focus on storm and rupture?

[rotund rock]

feels so strange to just sit there and backstab for like 20 sec idk man

[rotund rock]

for aoe most likely

and bp

[haughty mural]

It be like that unforch

[rotund rock]

p sure theres no reason to press backstab or ss outside of dance in aoe correct me if im wrong

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[peak prawn]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[haughty mural]

Do you refer to storm or strike?

[rotund rock]

lol they are bots ss huh

both

strike i meant

unless u vanish i guess

[haughty mural]

You can vanish strike for mobility or if you need a bit more cdr

To apply fw

And what not

[rotund rock]

yea i usually just use it whenever im just down bad as fuck

[haughty mural]

Pretty flexible

[rotund rock]

or to avoid a mech ofc

[haughty mural]

Yes

On eg a fight like fractillus you can for instance vanish strike before cds to assure fw

Since you can’t proc it reliable with bs

[rotund rock]

oh cuz ur not behind him right

[haughty mural]

Yes

[rotund rock]

yea thats cool tech

[wispy crystal]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[stoic perch]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[empty oyster]

With TFD does it matter if you send the 2nd Sec tech inside it or send it on 2nd dance of the fight?

[dusk stone]

2nd dance prolly but idk

because you always supercharge it

[lusty badger]

Hi, I read on the pinned that we are crafting double lens. But almost everyone I am seeing on Murlok.io for M+ seems to be running ascencion and writhing wrists. Is Ascension just better for raid or is it because they play Assasination from time to time?

[lusty epoch]

does anyone know if you can remove voidblade ambush with cloak or vanish? (Soulbinder Naazindhri)

[fallow nimbus]

does the vanish with storm in trashpacks still work?

to reset tfd

[haughty mural]

No

You can delete that macro

I think they bugfixed that even before s3

[gray coyote]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[mental meadow]

what are the best trinkets from m+ for m+?

[peak prawn]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[final granite]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[final granite]

how is it with coup in m+ larger packs, 5+. Do I spend it or continue with BP?

[compact meadow]

it's because ppl are playing assa too 🙂

[hollow spear]

you will never not use coup

and w/r/t embellishments: it doesn't matter

[final granite]

ty ty

[haughty mural]

Sectech > coup > bp at 4+ > evis

[glossy halo]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[stiff stirrup]

Of course they fix those kind of bugs quickly 🫡

[finite sequoia]

hey guys, what's the reason we backstab before we pop blades and sectec?

is it for findweakness? fazed effect?

[haughty mural]

Premed and danse

[finite sequoia]

ah

thanks!

[signal steeple]

Hello fellas, good morning, do you think sub rogue depends of his trinkets? Need so much the fractilius trinket??

[vale pine]

yes

prism / forge or alternatively lilly increase our damage output during burst

as such, we want to have them

especially prism is fairly dynamic as you can stack it up or use every 90 sec

depending on boss/dungeon

[signal steeple]

And passive trinket? what is best?

[vale pine]

antenna

[signal steeple]

OK thanks

[vale pine]

but you can get some other good passive options too

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[signal steeple]

Thank you so much

fuu

[vale pine]

no problem, and if you have more questions just ask

[lusty epoch]

No one? 🙂

[mint violet]

hey, can anyone explain to me the shuriken storm and flawless form interaction?

[vale pine]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[haughty mural]

There is none

[mint violet]

why use shuriken storm during flawless form?

Use Shuriken Storm on 3 or more targets with Flawless Form up.```

also, in multitarget without flawless form i just backstab?

[earnest escarp]

is soleahs sectech any good for us? i took it from my vault last week as it was only decent myth track item i had - but now i feel like im stuck with it... other trinket is normal ritual forge

[vale pine]

because backstab is rly weak

so you use storm outside of shadow dance

during shadow dance you use shadow strike

[mint violet]

yes, so i would think to use shuriken storm all the time im aoe

[vale pine]

no

you would shadowstrike

even in aoe

[mint violet]

yeye, in shadow dance

[vale pine]

but outside of shadowdance, yes

[mint violet]

just was puzzled about the with Flawless Form up bit

thank you

[vale pine]

its like this

flawless form procs from unseen blades

so you can use backstab to get flawless form back up

if it runs out

however thats very rare, and in general does not matter as much

[mint violet]

oh, so its like a small optimization i guess?

[vale pine]

yes

very small

[mint violet]

thanks

working hard on learning

[rapid oasis]

If I had to use curse stone idol where should the channel go with respect to cds? should I use it after flag and before rupt?

[hazy breach]

After rupture

[acoustic matrix]

I'm debating farming eco dome for the lily before starting 15s. How much DPS increase can I expect going from double passive to lily in practice ? cause is if it's just 2-3% to the overall like the sim says I don't think it's worth it

[earnest escarp]

hero pacemaker sims about -1% less than full upgraded soleahs so im unsure

[rapid oasis]

Charge before pressing shadowblades then right?

[hazy breach]

What

After rupture

Before dance

[rapid oasis]

Right, I kind of forgot about that, thanks for the clarification

So prolly just use lily if I those are my two options right? seems like a pain to play around

[keen moth]

outlaw player learning sub for dimensius, can someone show me what their hotbars look like

[tulip gorge]

guys how would you feel if next expansion they merge dance and symbols together

to simplify the spec

[keen dome]

I'd rather they put Blades into dance, but I dunno if Symbols+SoD would simplify it that much.

[vale pine]

flag/blades would make a lot of sense

or ye, making blades active passively in dance

there are a lot of ideas how to simplify the spec

[keen dome]

Putting Symbols and Sod into a single button could potentially make it more complex, if it results in the decision to dance becoming more difficult. I.e, having to wait a global or something extra.

[tulip gorge]

for a newbie having 2 stacks of dance and 3 stacks of symbols is probably confusing

[keen dome]

They should give us a third dance

[tulip gorge]

blades into dance would be crazy though

[keen dome]

Bake the combo gen and damage into it. Flag becomes Shaodw Blades but does mastery stacking. You could then add netherprism as a cooldown. >:D

[vale pine]

netherprism as cooldown

and eon effect instead of goremaws

lets do that

[keen dome]

🫡

[cursive vapor]

is it a thing so many tanks cant play endboss of streets?

[tulip gorge]

last boss of streets require you to use your brain

when is alpha supposed to start? next week or in 2 weeks?

[keen dome]

Something like that

I hope I get in so I can try rogue stuff and then do nothing useful

[tulip gorge]

I don't even want to play it, I just want to read the design blogs

I kinda wish they would add some sort of interaction with rupture

[acoustic matrix]

The precise cooldown sequence is part of the appeal to me

I know people don't like it but it's fine

Shouldn't please everybody

[vale pine]

i mean while true

some limitations and qol would not hurt

[slate lantern]

I'm surprised that running double passive is only 2-3% loss, sub really wants an active trinket to juice their windows

[vale pine]

e.g. flagellation requireing a target and the buff being on it is annoying in most instances

secret technique too, could be like BP

some mechanics are just overlapping without rly addinggameplay depth

fazed/find weakness for example do almost the same and you don't track or care about either

[acoustic matrix]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4tqUhJ23eg5aFgNKfeoeLc

3.2% for lily

[tulip gorge]

sectech yes, but flag should stay as a debuff on an enemy imo

if anything they should increase the damage part of it

make it feel like a damage prio ability

[slate marlin]

ye fw is annoying

[acoustic matrix]

I like the fact that you can switch target mid burst though

[mint violet]

wdym, i normally see dps not being able to play it?

[acoustic matrix]

or can you ?

[tulip gorge]

yeah currently it doesn't matter on which target you place it

[acoustic matrix]

While prio damage is great it's also restrictive

[tulip gorge]

as long as it doesn't die as soon as you place it

[slate marlin]

Imo flag should be gone, its another 90 sec cd with sb, just make sb stronger or whatever

[void epoch]

Is sub pulling ahead of sin for m+ at the moment?

[vale pine]

dungeon dependent, but sub has higher burst

[acoustic matrix]

Assa is still good but it's plagued with very annoying bugs that reduces its output and people are opting out rn

[ashen cloak]

chat what is sub's current weakness in m+ at the moment?

[cedar iron]

I have to say that having a shit ton of versa makes me feel easier about my survivability in sub. I have less in assa :d

Even if it is more psychological i guess ^^

[hazy breach]

Theres also a several passive damage reduction talents

[cedar iron]

Yes

[zealous flint]

Yo guys, im trying to trust sims, but it seems near impossible to replace the jastor diamond...

have you guys kept yours?

[keen dome]

Nah, tossed it for a 704 ring

[zealous flint]

yeah, i wanna get rid of it but sims still put it better :S

[violet cloak]

hello guys do you know why did shadow blades did so much dmg on an elite in karesh?

[swift tinsel]

Scaling in the overworld

Blades is very strong just out and about

[celest ice]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[final granite]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[slate lantern]

From approx 0:25-1:29

[calm trail]

trying to switch from assi to sub, to try something new. However if I do im sitting on something stupid like 110% mast and like 15% vers (with flask) and 20% crit. Is this likely to result in pretty low damage overall due to the low vers?

[fallow nimbus]

Stats don't really matter unless you got like an overload amount of haste

[calm trail]

at 16%

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah, that is like too much

[calm trail]

yeah I know lol

sadly drops have not been optimal lol

I can get it down to 10% with some hear switching

[fallow nimbus]

Sim topgear and go with that

[calm trail]

right ty

[solid lotus]

looking for help with mythic araz prog

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/t3W8Pyzpk2fx4g1m?fight=38&type=damage-done&target=69&phase=2

tips tricks and criticisms welcome

[summer berry]

Im trying to pick talents for m+ but everyone is playing it differently, what are you guys playing?

[ashen cloak]

lmao

[steel zinc]

you hold cds for the first add set

if not its kinda trolling

you always combine prism with your cds

not press it at random

you sectech + cb 2nd dance not first in your cds

you need to bs dance

[wheat edge]

wait since when do you tech 2nd?

[steel zinc]

you cb the 2nd

thats what I mean

[wheat edge]

ahh

[acoustic matrix]

Aight from taking a quick glance here's what I see:

• First off you have 2 haste rings, I don't know how that sims for you but i'd find it surprising if that's good
• Second you don't send your CDs at the proper timing. You want to start this fight with symbol + dance and send flagellation at around 20-25 sec when adds spawn. Check https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/forgeweaver-araz to see how top logs use their CD and copy them for the most part unless your guild requires you to do otherwise.
• 3rd you want to supercharge your Sec Tech. When you symbol you must spend with SecTech within 2 spenders (the first or second spender after symboling)
• 4th you want to cold blood on your second SecTech after flag. It seems you have macroed cold blood with SecTech and the guide says it's fine but know that you're losing dps doing that although I don't know how much
• 5th you want to backstab after dance to get 6% damage from danse macabre

[solid lotus]

i know my rings are trash they wont drop 🙁

[solid lotus]

thanks, my guild has been trying to do the skip second intermission strat so i was told to just tunnel boss and not stress too much about add damage, hence we lust pull and i send cds ignoring adds but we had a shitty comp tonight, no dk no shaman and 2x sub rogue and we came up about 8% short on damage

i also havent played sub for a long time so these look like things i can fix easy ty

[paper glen]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

Well theres no big difference in boss damage sending on first adds

Since you'd end up holding cds for 3:30 anyway

so delaying flag&blades like 25 seconds doesnt matter

[solid lotus]

delaying cds when boss is immune?

[acoustic matrix]

yeah you don't cd on pillar phase

[solid lotus]

sending cds on adds seems to me to only be good for add damage, right?

yeah i literally sit there storming and black powdering to build up haha

[acoustic matrix]

You can symbol dance though

[solid lotus]

cheeky symbs

[hazy breach]

Yeah its only good for add damage, but you dont lose boss damage doing it

So why wouldnt you

[acoustic matrix]

And as Eleem said you don't lose boss damage and gain adds damage so it's all good

[solid lotus]

lf dawnbreaker + priory keys xx

[dry harness]

Guyz when tank is gathering mobs,do u try to put rupter on all mobs,sometimes hard to see wich does not have it

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah only when he is gathering. When adds are packed you don't spread rupture anymore and only maintain on main target

[dry harness]

oki Ty zak

[swift tinsel]

You still maintain on targets that live 10+ sec you just don’t maintain while in cds

[frigid ingot]

when hitting 4+ mobs in cds, do i use shadowstike+bp? or shuriken storm+bp?

[swift tinsel]

Strike when in dance

Storm when not

[frigid ingot]

ty

[swift tinsel]

Strike is a very high-value global bc of its damage and ability to proc unseen blade

[frigid ingot]

@swift tinsel in AOE i do not use the cou de grace procs no? Only SS into BP

[swift tinsel]

You absolutely use coup in aoe

[frigid ingot]

oh

[hollow spear]

Not using coup = int

[swift tinsel]

Besides Sectech it’s your highest prio finisher in aoe

[sage raft]

yo guys, maybe anyone of you can help me:
to learn this specc i am using hekili atm (shame on me)
sometimes in a key, when we start the pull, it tells me to push BS continuesly.. no shuriken-storm or anything, no finisher, nothing.... can u tell me, qhy is taht ? or is it just bad-programming of hekili ?

thanks !

[swift tinsel]

If you’re in aoe and it’s telling you to spam backstab that’s a hekili problem

[solid lotus]

Hekili has a when you swap from ass to sub

You need to reload ui

[sage raft]

so its shuriken, rupture, and then blast the rota ?

[sage raft]

i am in sub the whole time, but thanks for the advise

[void epoch]

if you dont have dance / symbols active do we ss or backstab in aoe

[swift tinsel]

You should be spreading rupture as the tank gathers then once things are in place you send cds

[solid lotus]

No idea I dont use it for rogue it’s just handy on my alts

[near compass]

can we stack netherprism stacks before key ? or do they reset

[swift tinsel]

Storm in aoe

[hazy breach]

No, it resets when you start a key or pull a raidboss

[near compass]

sadge

[sage raft]

ty mate !

[worn kestrel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[worn kestrel]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[sick jolt]

Guys are we using BP on m+?

[sullen hare]

Oh hell yeah we are 4+ targets and coup anytime it's up

Who knows maybe they'll buff black powder another 10% and we drop it down to fewer targets in the future

[swift tinsel]

2 targets inc, gonna have to change my name again

[worn kestrel]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[solemn creek]

Remove bp gives us more coup

[frigid ingot]

Anyone has a simple way of explaining me how do i line x2 symbols + x2 dance with shadowblade? (is it like i send only 1 dance+symbols in between? or a symbols without dance?)

[wooden kernel]

would it be troll to play sub w lily and pacemaker?

[hazy breach]

No why would it be

[wooden kernel]

idk how much prism matters

was just curious

[hazy breach]

Make sure you have 1 charge and 30 seconds left on your second dance when you press flag

[wooden kernel]

ty

[frigid ingot]

ty

[crystal bone]

do u guys try to get assigned to 2nd soak for myth araz prog?

since the first soak is mid-flag

[weary kite]

when flawless form is up and you coup spam you go to the moon bro what you mean

[azure ember]

can anyone explain this opener to me and why im seeing it alot on logs ?

casting blades after first secret tech?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter if you cast it before or after sectech

[weary kite]

habit from a previous season when blades didn't benefit sectech, best to do it before or a little after.

[hazy breach]

After used to be better, but not anymore, now its neutral so a lot of people just have the muscle memory

[wooden kernel]

idol is simming over lily for me same ilvl, is it bait?

[hollow spear]

it sims correctly

you just have to ask yourself if you want to use a channel or not

[wooden kernel]

interesting, ty

when would i send idol? after blades/flag go?

[hazy breach]

After rupture, before dance

[wooden kernel]

ya i see, get crit before go

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[still mica]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[still mica]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[blissful yacht]

why should i use shuriken between 4 pc set bonus Coup??

[golden totem]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[fallow nimbus]

To not waste coup stacks

[blissful yacht]

oh, thanks

[wheat edge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[twilit merlin]

Can someone explain to me how to better track shadowcraft ? I keep sending shadowstrike even tho i'm getting a full refund

stopped playing sub for some time, i'm messing this up

costing me prob a ton of dps

[vale pine]

you can track the buff

and highlight if its 7+ stacks

so you know when you get a refund

[hazy breach]

And/or you can get the "Shadowcraft refund sound trigger" WA posted right above your message

[vale pine]

(shadow techniques + highlight when symbols is up)

[twilit merlin]

yeah i have zac wa kit, just wasnt sure yet what the fuck is happening with the sound :D

[twilit merlin]

ok thank gonna test on dummy

[twilit merlin]

Ah i see now, the sound trigger when I get refunded, but i already like pressed the keybind like before, and it get triggered as soon as my gcd happen

I need to stop spamming and anticipate better

[mossy cipher]

Hey folks are casualaddict's weak auras available anywhere?

[tight monolith]

prob if you sub to him on twitch then join his discord I can imagine!

[mossy cipher]

Ah I see, thanks man!

[tight monolith]

no worries🫡

[still anvil]

does the cb bug do anything if i dont use it in a macro? it seems to work properly it doesnt, nvm

[daring agate]

ok im confused. need clarification. rotation says use BP at 4+ is that really prio over evis with flawless form? because i seem to basically always have the buff. when do i BP exactly?

[left quail]

Do you still shuriken storm in shadowblades between 2 coup procs if ur at full CPs? Aka shadowcraft procced

[hazy breach]

4 or more targets

[hazy breach]

No you would not use a combo point generator if you do not need to generate combo points

[daring agate]

even if flawless form is active? evis would hit 7 targets, no?

[hazy breach]

Yes

BP does more at 4 targets

Which is why its recommended

[daring agate]

gotcha. is that also in dance? or only out?

[twilit merlin]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[twilit merlin]

wait do you always Tea with shadow dance ?

So i should try to deplete my energy before pressing dance to max out my tea refill ?

Or is that not like "not worth it" because most of the power come from the mastery bonus

[plush roost]

Power comes from mastery

[lucid jackal]

The energy is worthless

[twilit merlin]

Dam i got baited by the energy

[final granite]

Guys, what is it with Delve belt? I see people using it, but dont see any effect of it happening in logs?

[steel jolt]

all of the belt modules have some effect you can find

[velvet vector]

lightning rod keeps breaking stealth...are you guys still using it?

*charged bolts

[steel jolt]

don't use charged bolts

[final granite]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JDrdt2LGHxYfmnaA?fight=43&type=summary&source=13 Like he has charged bolts, and does 0 dmg

[steel jolt]

it's the worst one by far not just because of damage but because of the stealth issues

also WCL will always show charged bolts even if that's not what they are actually using. it's a bug with WCL

[final granite]

ah

[gray bobcat]

Sorry, extremely new to sub just starting the alt. Bigly stupid question mayhaps

[slate lantern]

What trinkets u using king

[wispy crystal]

During shadow dance with 4 targets+, why do we use Shadow strike + black powder ?

Find weakness doesn't spread to the other targets with shadow strike right?

[gray bobcat]

When coup de grace or other buffs say "act as if they spent x extra cp"

If you spend 7, does it math as if it spent 12

[plush roost]

Lily pacemaker because god has abandoned me

[gray bobcat]

I assumed so

If I want to glance over a guide, is there one that's generally recommended over the others right now

Icyveins vs wowhead vs etc, probably irrelevant but can't hurt to ask

[plush roost]

Theyre all good and written by the people in here

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[plush roost]

Eleem stealthi and fuu all giga chads

[gray bobcat]

Is there anyone where it would be funniest if I ironically hate on them and go to the other guides

This is obviously more important

[karmic harbor]

In this house we don't read method guides

[gray bobcat]

Fuck method

[left ledge]

stealthi isnt part of method

he just wrote the guide for them

[gray bobcat]

Me and the homies only read fuu guides. If fuu doesn't have a guide for a spec I don't play it

[cedar willow]

Holy is the wcl thing real!? I’ve been trolling for 2 weeks charges bolts perma on.

[steel jolt]

yikes man

charged bolts was nerfed into the ground like week two

and on top of that it pulls you out of stealth and random mobs

big troll

[cedar willow]

Crit chain or mastery is the better one then?

[swift tinsel]

Crit typically

[cedar willow]

Even with 32% crit? (Got a mythic plexus ring -_-)

[swift tinsel]

You can sim yourself

[slate marlin]

sim

[swift tinsel]

And see which is better for you

[spare quiver]

why people running this talents?

[swift tinsel]

Because it’s a good talent setup

Pretty standard

[mossy spear]

rotten op

[swift tinsel]

With the way we use storm with 4pc it’s a bit overrated imo

As far as fw spread goes

[wooden kernel]

how bad is it to macro symbols and dance?

im so used to it

[swift tinsel]

You don’t wanna do that

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[frank locust]

is there a known bugs command?

[swift tinsel]

!bugs

[frank locust]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[frank locust]

ty

[gray bobcat]

Which talent is supercharging secret technique

[hazy breach]

Supercharger

[tepid trellis]

[gray bobcat]

Classic

Could have guessed that myself without looking

[frank locust]

hm

[glossy halo]

Heyho, can someone please Tell me, why shuriken storm is only used with flawless Form Up as Builder?

[frank locust]

i seem to be able to cast shadowstrike while out of stealth

is that a known bug that isnt on the list?

or am i just mega stupid and tired

[gray bobcat]

Supercharger is a 2 pointer right, so your next 2 spenders are supercharged

And it doesn't matter whether secret technique is your first or second after symbols

[silent forge]

Hey I am making a switching from ass to sub what are your tips

any weakauras that I should get

[swift tinsel]

One that tracks escalating blade stacks

Besides the usual cd tracking ones

Symbols, dance, secret technique, flagellation, shadow blades

[slate lantern]

Go practice the opener on dummies until you can do it in your sleep

[hollow spear]

Because you want flawless form up to keep nimble flurry

And storm does not activate flawless form

[clever lintel]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hollow hound]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[mortal bolt]

!rotation

[swift tinsel]

You don’t really need to worry about flawless form outside dance

You’re better off just storming

[gritty bronze]

Hello 🙂 what's this spec like with single button assist? I love the idea of bursting stuff down and I'm primarily a pve player so I don't mind not being a top parsing dps, just acceptable haha

[swift tinsel]

Unless at 3 or fewer targets

[stray oyster]

what is the ability that allows for mythiple finishers without a shadow or back stab druing shadow blades

where you get max combo twice in a row without a builder

[swift tinsel]

Shadowcraft talent

[stray oyster]

ty

[limpid sage]

It’s probably one of the worst one button rotation specs

[gritty bronze]

How so? I'm able to use a few more buttons for my major cds or stuff I need on demand

(I know wowhead has a little on this but I'd rather speak to actual players haha)

[swift tinsel]

The gcd penalty alone means you’re losing damage in your cooldowns

Which hurts sub more than any other spec

[unborn lagoon]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[steel jolt]

unless you have a disability preventing you from playing normally, i see no incentive at all to ever consider OBR

[wispy crystal]

Do we take 1 point into finality for the M+ build?

[steel jolt]

even supposing it was good, how is it fun to slam a single button over and over? sounds like a recipe for carpal tunnel syndrome

[hazy breach]

Subs entire rotation revolves around being able to use 2x dances and 2x symbols during shadow blades

And the one button rotation doesnt use blades, so the entire rotation gets scuffed

[tall hatch]

!COUP

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tall hatch]

!mistakes

[gritty bronze]

I do have a disability but also I think its a good feature outside of accessibility, means people can play the game rather than the task bar

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[gritty bronze]

So would GSE macros be a better option?

[hazy breach]

No idea what that is, but the one button rotation is around 25-30% less dps than optimal play

[steel jolt]

learning the spec is the best option

[gritty bronze]

I honestly don't mind that, without the obr I'd be doing less than that anyway haha, I just wondered how competent the spec is using it for more casual play. I'm all about collecting mounts/pets/toys/mogs and gold farming, I've never been in a raid and it sounds super toxic to me

[gritty bronze]

It's not that easy for me, especially with a more difficult class like sub rogue

[steel jolt]

raiding sounds super toxic?

[marble comet]

guys in aoe pull when i spam blackpowder i deal legit 0 dmg u have any idea why?

[haughty mural]

It should be fine then

[swift tinsel]

Are you more than 10 yards away from mobs bc that’s why you’d do zero damage

[gritty bronze]

Yeah, I hear outside of LFR it's very elitist and if you arnt up to the standard of the person organising it then you get bullied or kicked

[marble comet]

hm i dont think so

[swift tinsel]

Without any kind of logs or anything it’s impossible to say what you’re doing wrong

[mortal bolt]

yeah i know what you mean, i have also the problem

[wispy crystal]

Why do we use sTec on the first supercharger point?

Won't using it on the second point do more damage since you would have more danse macabre stacks ?

[steel jolt]

i would not say this is true, and entirely up to the guild you're in. obviously every guild is different and finding the right one for you is important. personally i've never experienced anything like that and i've been playing since classic. i would encourage you to see for yourself and not believe everything you hear

[swift tinsel]

Agreed, been playing for almost 20 years and only really experienced that once

It might take a little trial and error to find a guild that’s a good fit

But that’s part of the process

A good group of people will make a fun game even better

[gritty bronze]

I'll give it a go, and if I can find a way to not use obr I absolutely will 🙂 thank you for the advice, I'll have to get guild hunting hahaha

[swift tinsel]

There’s discords too iirc for guild recruitment based on what your goals are

[gritty bronze]

Oh? Okay didn't know that, that's actually super handy

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, I don’t recall the name but it should pop up in a quick google search

[mortal bolt]

which are the best build for m+ ?

[steel jolt]

not sure if we can link servers here but it's the first result here for NA https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=wow+recruitment+discord&ia=web

[gritty bronze]

I've found it 🙂

Thank you

[swift tinsel]

GL 🫡

[marble comet]

on akrakara first puill i do like 0 damage..

[slate lantern]

Probably want to press your cooldowns on that one

[lapis junco]

!prekey

do we do anything pre key?

[mortal bolt]

this talents are viable ?

[slate lantern]

Press SoD ~20s before pull for 2 supercharger stacks

[lapis junco]

cheers

[marble comet]

ok never did this kek

[hollow spear]

Outside of dance you're farming cdr and don't do much damage

[summer berry]

Ive seen ppl running Finality over Rotten

[vale pine]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[hollow spear]

You still have to throw in the odd bs to use up your ub procs, managing form kinda plays into that

[swift tinsel]

You’re dancing often enough in aoe where it takes care of itself

[hollow spear]

If you get high stacks of eb before your dance by getting rid of ub procs, your dances will get juiced more (thanks to coup). At least that's how I understand that interaction.

[dusk stone]

eh, i got pulled into a pug once that was from a guild run. the entirety of said time the RL whose was name "Gily" whom talked about himself narratively in the third person spent most of that pug telling us how great he was and how awful everyone else was.

was wild

but yeah raiding is fine

bro played a BM hunter too

[mortal bolt]

my question, i dont understand, when i use black powder and when evis

[hazy breach]

Coup always, bp at 4 or more targets

[mortal bolt]

but i read bp at 7+ targets because evis is better for dmg

[sullen hare]

then bp at 7+ targets if you want to use old info

[dusk stone]

thats an old tip

BP got buffed this tier

[mortal bolt]

ah ok

[sullen hare]

you'll do more damage bp at 4+ targets though

[safe gazelle]

if i dont apply ruptures before pull and go into the CD phase (without any find weakness except shadowstrike target) should i use shuriken strom + secret technique or backstab + secret technique?

[dusk stone]

apply ruptures before the mobs are grouped

[outer rivet]

How do we play around the netherprism trinket as sub, im switching over to sub in raid. do we send it on cd with shadow blades or wait till 18 stacks?

[dusk stone]

you can do both

you tend to waste stacks holding at 18 because it caps but it can be worth it in certain circumstances like a damage amp or huge mob. Commonly thats done with araz ritual forge on last 2 bosses of raid not particularly great for keys though

[safe gazelle]

sometimes there are pulls like ara kara until first boss with so many little adds it's annoying to spread rupture

[outer rivet]

im gonna prog on loom tonight so i really want to know how to play around it in pure ST fight more or less

[dusk stone]

so it becomes a judgment call whether to send or hold at 9 stacks, which is how many you gather between burst phases

[dusk stone]

the idea with rupture is to spread on adds only if they will live long enough. Rupture receives boosts from your amps but they still need to live about 20 seconds for it to be worth

[grand wyvern]

my sims give me better trinket combo lily+netherprism but the usage is really weird, the robot does first 2 CDs lily, last 2 prism

[safe gazelle]

yeah thats why i asked for yolo cd's without rupture and find weakness 😄

[dusk stone]

you still want to apply find weakness to those mobs prob

[safe gazelle]

yeah thats what i think too 😄

thx for insight man

[dusk stone]

also your tank is an idiot if he wants you to spend your burst on those adds instead of cleaving them with boss

[light rune]

Do i hold any charges for second burst session?

Any SoD or SD

[swift tinsel]

Yes

Stop casting them when flag has ~30sec left on cd

You’ll need 1.5 dance charges and ~1.5 symbols charges

[steel scroll]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[lethal yew]

Looking at M Araz logs. Most rogues are sending flag about 8 seconds before the 1st add set. Is that to have more flag stacks built up for a bigger burst when the adds do come out?

[vale pine]

exactly

[light rune]

How can i create a log review?

Can't seem to open threads

[vale pine]

type !log

[manic salmon]

only premium subtlety channel users have access to that function

[ornate lake]

When to use Shuriken storm and when to use shadowstrike to build CP in AoE?

Assuming inside dance

[light rune]

always Shadowstrike

Never Storm

in SD

[swift tinsel]

Only storm between coups if you have blades up or enough shadow techniques stacks to guarantee you’ll get 6+ combo points from storm

[light rune]

This is only if you won't generate full CP after the first Coup?

[swift tinsel]

Yep

No need to build if you’re at full cp

[pure pollen]

why is this? (sub noob)

[light rune]

Because of Nimble Flurry

[pure pollen]

got you, ty

[swift tinsel]

Flurry and bc strike procs unseen blade

Which is very important

[pure pollen]

makes sense, i got some bad habits i got to break. get overwhelmed being new to the spec and just start storming everywhere for CP generation lmaoo

[light rune]

i also had them

and i took Shuriken Storm

out of my bar during dance

[swift tinsel]

Ye you’ll break those quick enough

[light rune]

It worked

!log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hqcHa1CG4gR2tBxk?fight=6&type=damage-done&source=128

[signal moth]

do we do anything with slice and dice with sub? I know in sin you just pretty much ignore it but in the opener you dont have SnD up unless you use envis right? But is that a dps loss or gain to do in opener? it doesnt seem to show it in the rotation

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/baguette-daggers-and-corn-flails-mouthwatering-food-themed-transmog-coming-in-378209

i love these

[vale pine]

we ignore slice and dice

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/baguette-angry-french-player-bread-smack-vr-gif-17462525

[vale pine]

it gets applied/refreshed automatically

[signal moth]

but we dont care in opener at all to apply it?

[marble comet]

wait do we take finality or rotton ?

[vale pine]

nope

[vale pine]

you can

the diffrence is low, technically rotten is slightly worse

can also sim it for your gear

[marble comet]

50k dungeonslice dps increase with rotton

[vale pine]

👍

[silver elbow]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[jolly anchor]

I'm looking at a POV from mythic Nexus-king, and this guy (not gonna mention nicknames but I assume he's pretty good lol) is using Sec tech before Shadow Blades. Could there be a logic behind it or just a mistake?

[lethal yew]

Does your rotation change at all when playing Rotten? Like would you use storm after dance instead of backstab to apply FW?

[swift tinsel]

Blades used to not affect Sectech so it’s old habit

It’s effectively dps neutral to do so vs before Sectech

[pure pollen]

why storm between coups? trying to make sure i understand everything

[swift tinsel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

Point #2 has the explanation

Its a quirk of the tier set

[pure pollen]

oh shit i dont have tier yet, that makes sense

[jolly anchor]

aah I see, thanks ; )

[swift tinsel]

And which abilities proc unseen blade

[pure pollen]

gotcha, ty! i know you guys probably get asked this stuff constantly lmao

[swift tinsel]

The ! commands help lol it’s a bit of an odd way the tier set works so questions around it are fairly common

[vale pine]

the ! commands help to not need to type out the same answer over and over

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[hoary anvil]

ok dumb question, is the clip that Gingi poster of Kush pulling 50M on Mother boss, is that fake propaganda of an xplot/padding or is it normal to output that much dmg during CDs, bc i can't get past 20M on 5 targets (i dont have on-use trinkets)

[vale pine]

^ e.g. when someone wonders again why their cold blood does not work

the gingi clip is clearly for entertainment

it isn't ment to showcase balance problems or anything

[marble comet]

do you have yt guide?

[swift tinsel]

Gingi posted another clickbait short?

[vale pine]

sadly no

i assume people still talk about the one people posted in here ~5 times already

[swift tinsel]

Is it during the Momma amp phase

[hoary anvil]

it is

[swift tinsel]

Lol

Ofc

Presumably with stacked prism

?

[vale pine]

presumably with max stacks

yes

[swift tinsel]

Only 50mil

Child’s play

[vale pine]

i mean its in the end just typical virality/content creator precedure

you want to find something that stands out

then add some fake emotions

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah, he’s posted videos like that before too with the Gingi Mind Blown thumbnail

[orchid rampart]

so Rupture uptime important AoE situations or just mainly Single target

[vale pine]

it is a good way to clicbait

[swift tinsel]

Had a similar one before season 2 tier nerfs iirc

[strange geode]

CB only with secret technique with big CDs?

[vale pine]

and get a lot of views/attention

but isn't rly telling you much about relative balance

[strange geode]

or in between one more time cause 45 CD?

[hoary anvil]

aight thanks, i definitely got that impression but wanted to make sure

[vale pine]

exactly

[strange geode]

Thanks!

[vale pine]

you can think of it like a 90 sec cooldown ^^

haha

[strange geode]

Alright 🙂

[tender frost]

is there a big benefit to autumn on nexus king or is it pretty minor

you can still get full cds for burn without it i think

[lucid jackal]

U don't need it at all

[tender frost]

thx saw the top 3 logs & most of rwf get it was curious

[lucid jackal]

It makes it easier but I don't think it actually amounts to any damage increase

[lime bear]

Why doesn't use black powder in araz?

[tender frost]

marginal dps gain in 4 targets to troll your boss damage

[lime bear]

I understand. thank you

[cinder axle]

is nether prism good in raid?

[mossy karma]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[swift tinsel]

Best trinket for raid and m+

[dusk stone]

unless your healer lets you die 4x

then very bad trinket

[cinder axle]

y i thougt because u start in a fight with 0 stacks

[sick basin]

Does Black Powder not give Slice and Dice?

[oak surge]

No, just evis

[sick basin]

So in M+ do you just throw in a evis every now and then or just rely on Coup?

[dusk stone]

yeah, you start the fight with zero stacks and when you die you have zero stacks and you start the fight with zero stacks again

[hazy breach]

Coup covers it

[oak surge]

Unless you're super unlucky, yeah, coup will keep your SnD up

[vale pine]

no, but you will get it from using coup

[lean bone]

hey so just a questions to multispec rogues: is sub harder in regards of button pressing than sin?

i just wanna give it a try buy the amount of buttons kinds scares me off

[oak surge]

There's more thought to it, and you're punished harder if you scuff your CDs

[dusk stone]

its significantly harder than sin yeah

i dont think otherwise holds up honestly, i tried swapping to sin for keys a week ago and actively improved being much slower

[oak surge]

Just practice the rotation/opener slowly on a dummy until you feel more comfortable. Sub is far more satisfying to play than sin, imo

[solid vale]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

subtlety is harder to learn, also because it is more punishing

[lean bone]

so it's all coming down to muscle memory, like with any other spec? or do i need to turn on my brain?

[swift tinsel]

Their complexities are different

[vale pine]

but i wouldn't worry too much

[swift tinsel]

Once you know the gist of sub it’s actually quite uncomplicated

[dusk stone]

sin is like a 3 if sub is like a 7 is how it is

sub harder to learn and easier to master, after a certain time it clicks and its really easy though

[oak surge]

You'll have to use your brain because all of our dps is based in our CDs, so you have to manage those for the right pulls in m+

If you have a consistent group though, and know what all the pulls are, you can just rely on muscle memory for the most part

[swift tinsel]

If it’s single target sin is one of the easier specs in general so sub will look harder by comparison

[oak surge]

But yeah, as fuu said, don't worry about it too much

[sick basin]

How many ruptures would you guys send before dancing in M+? like 2-3?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

[oak surge]

yep

[dusk stone]

the correct amount before the tank groups stuff up correctly

[sick basin]

so in pugs you just only rupture, got it

[swift tinsel]

If it’s like a 10+ pull I’ll throw out 3 on bigger mobs then flag+rupture prio target

[fallen marsh]

just press it till shits grouped

[swift tinsel]

With RS that’s good coverage

[dusk stone]

i categorically refuse to participate if the tank pulls 4 mobs

[pale fog]

Do we still use Dungeon Slice for m+ Simming?

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[pale fog]

Thanks!

[rocky ocean]

[swift tinsel]

[rocky ocean]

nerf sec tech

buff bp

delete eviscerate

[fallen marsh]

remove trickster

[steel jolt]

you just want to spam BP?

confused about this vision for sub

[real delta]

Hey folks. I'm trying to understand some nuance in Eviscerate vs. Black Powder as a finisher. Generally I'm seeing that 4+ you just send BP (still prioritizing Secret Tech and Coup), but I also see Find Weakness target trackers being linked which suggests to me that Find Weakness should be being tracked to further inform when we should be using Black Powder. Is it really as simple as just "BP 4+ targets when Sec Tech or Coup aren't up" or is there more at play with Find Weakness?

[rocky ocean]

I'm the blizzard emissary

[limber folio]

i will assume, im doing the wrong opener for sub raid right? or is it fine 🤨

swapped to sub for forge

[rocky ocean]

could be worse

[fallen marsh]

use flag before rupture its a tiny dmg gain but easy to do

[limber folio]

only thing

i guess im missing out on BS here

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[rocky ocean]

yes

[swift tinsel]

Find weakness tracking was more important before the black powder buff that came with 11.2

Now it’s just 4+ targets

[swift tinsel]

Don’t want to flag and blades back to back

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[fervent gate]

sorry for bad english but is it normal that shadowstrike doesnt have any extra range when u use shadow dance?

[swift tinsel]

It only teleports if you use it from stealth

[fervent gate]

okay thanks 😄 i tought i was high or something XD

[swift tinsel]

Nope! Some things treat stealth and dance separately and the teleport thing is one of them

[twilit merlin]

Once it used too teleport you with shadow dance

it was too strong in PvP lmao

[fervent gate]

yea i was reading the abilities and the shadow dance tells you all combat benefits

so i tought it was bugged so i came to ask

[fervent gate]

i mean that is kinda strong

[near compass]

around how many stacks is best to send cooldowns with netherprism instead of other on-use trinket ?

[fervent gate]

i used to play outlaw like 4 years and now came back from break and wanted to try something new so im trying sub now and feel sos much fun

[mystic ether]

What's a good second craft if you intend to play sin and sub? I crafted the dagger with ascension embellishment first

I was thinking bracers with the nerubian embellishment?

[lucid jackal]

Probs just braces

Use the free heroic crest u get

[plush roost]

Cloak :^)

[mystic ether]

yeah? not gilded crests?

[lucid jackal]

Probs not unless U have literally nothing to spend gilded on

[plush roost]

U can use gilded later, better things to spend on rn like chest helm legs trinkets weapons

[mystic ether]

Got it, thank you!

[lucid jackal]

Yer

[rose burrow]

Do I need a stop attack macro for vanish? I sometimes vanish and cant even shadowstrike cuz it takes me out instantly

[mystic ether]

Do you have the new belt?

[rose burrow]

or is it smtg else

i have disco

[astral axle]

It is GCD

[rose burrow]

I mean even if i press during gcd unless I press smtg it shouldnt cancel vanish no?

dont have that problem in assa

[twilit merlin]

i have a stop attack on vanish doesnt really hurt

[rose burrow]

yeah I will try!

[astral axle]

#subtlety message

I had the same problem but waiting for gcd to end then vanishing has fixed for me

[rose burrow]

ohh alright thats news to me

will keep that in mind

[haughty rose]

how do i get the ascendance embellishment?

[empty canyon]

I am trying to make the cold blood secret tech macro work, and it just wont use cold blood. I copied it off wowhead, is there a known reason for this?

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[empty canyon]

arh, thank you

[dusk stone]

its wrong yeah

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[light imp]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tiny sierra]

sometime between dances sectec comes out of cd, is it worth using it even tho i won't use dance right after?

or should i save sectec for dance window

[west ridge]

hi guys i got a question i saw we play the rotten again ( fairly new to sub), does that mean we press shuriken storm in our opener for more find weakness procs or does it only matter out of cds ?

also i saw some play tea and some cb in highkeys what is better to take for a beginner of sub i guess tea but not so sure

thanks in advane guys

[past wyvern]

Also got a Q for sub players, which biuld in m+ is rn the best tornado siuriken or classic one?

[dusk stone]

run the finality build or the tea TR build

[past wyvern]

Aha ty man for respond

[half osprey]

cold blood - ST doesnt work anymore? macro

[swift tinsel]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[ornate lake]

https://tenor.com/view/omniman-gif-26206182

Did a 22M ST burst on priory second boss

[cerulean beacon]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[ornate lake]

Sub is fucking cracked now

[swift tinsel]

You always want to use symbols of death with secret technique, and you always want to use dance with symbols

[rocky ocean]

Nerfs incoming

[latent finch]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[ornate lake]

I have literally removed BP from my bar and still end up with 8M overall and top dmg on 11 keys

[steel jolt]

do you have a log of that?

[ornate lake]

Funnel maxing the game

[swift tinsel]

Sub funnel

[tiny sierra]

i got it but if i have symbols + sectec between dance CDs

can i send it or should i save?

until i enter dance

[swift tinsel]

You can send symbols and Sectech without dance

Unless it has just a couple sec left on cd

[leaden plover]

i think there is a lot of other classes that should be nerfed before sub gets it

[swift tinsel]

If it won’t scuff your next flag window

[tiny sierra]

i see

thx

[gray bobcat]

Why backstab after shadow dance and symbols

[cloud rover]

@tribal blade
I feel so bad rn

[twilit merlin]

for danse macabre

i wish backstab would get deleted tho

[gray bobcat]

Gross

[limber folio]

so, for the first bs in the dance - do i have to use that BS dance macro?

[swift tinsel]

100% of your decisions with sub are “will this make it so I can/can’t double dance/sod/Sectech my next flag”

[latent finch]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[limber folio]

im just looking at the timeline

[gray bobcat]

But that wastes the guaranteed crit from symbols, no?

Disgusting that it's worth it

[swift tinsel]

You can use the macro if it helps you

It’s mostly a keybind saving thing

[ornate lake]

Why not

I'm here to spam eviscerates

[twilit merlin]

maybe use symbol of death after ?

[limber folio]

yeah but then, wouldnt it ALWAYS bs for me in every dance start, or do i want this to happen at all

[hazy breach]

Nah dont bother

[twilit merlin]

idk im not very good right now

[gray bobcat]

No the command says I HAVE to make it look exactly like that

Equipping lfr house of cards brb

[twilit merlin]

oh i see

[swift tinsel]

lil baby non-dance eviscerates lol

[hazy breach]

Its not really worth playing around rotten in any way

[west ridge]

do u guys play Tea or cb atm in m+? ( with the rotten)

[swift tinsel]

You have to double-press the bind to backstab so it doesn’t auto-cast

[hoary lotus]

Is it possible to get 3 sectechs in flag?

[limber folio]

ye alright

so i have my dance on E

i just have to double press it basically

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

[limber folio]

but how many cp is flagg giving me tho?

[swift tinsel]

Some people feel weird about having bs on a different bar than their stealth/regular

Flag doesn’t generate cp

Every cp spent grants a stack up to 30

[karmic harbor]

how many secs before dmg amp do i pop flag on forgeweaver myth?

[swift tinsel]

And they don’t have to be spent on the flagged target either

[limber folio]

then why does the picture say flagg into rupture then

[swift tinsel]

Because the strike before flag gives full cp

Due to premeditation

[limber folio]

imma try and see

how different this is

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[tranquil egret]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[sick basin]

Can you get to 6 stacks in dance without coup or black powder?

Not sure if 5 is normal or just missing something

[swift tinsel]

Stacks of what

[sick basin]

Macabre isn't it?

[swift tinsel]

Ah, you don’t really play around that

It’s basically bonus damage

[sick basin]

Ah

[swift tinsel]

There’s some minor min/maxes with it but largely ignored

[karmic harbor]

how many secs before dmg amp do i pop flag on forgeweaver myth?

[swift tinsel]

https://lorrgs.io/

Can see what top logs are doing

[karmic harbor]

hard to read this and tell when pylons die

maybe im dumb

but i think i flag as soon as i can

[shut hatch]

I macro´d Thistle with Symbols, is that stupid?

[kind bluff]

Do we still backstab for a stack of macabre?

[cursive vapor]

macro it with dance

done.

[lethal yew]

Question about macabre and dance. When you dance in your opener, do the macabre stacks transfer to your 2nd dance if you don't let it fall off?

[karmic harbor]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[pulsar hemlock]

For the guys who take tornado in M+, what are they dropping to get it?

[limpid sage]

it'll fall off no matter what

it's not the same instance of dance

[shut hatch]

btw, anybody know why my secret tech cold blood macro isnt working? used it for years, and now it just isnt working at all

[limpid sage]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[shut hatch]

oh really

thats fckin stupd

tyvm though

[pulsar hemlock]

Welcome to rogue

[shut hatch]

yeah I know, its a lot going on right now, but wasnt expecting this

[lethal yew]

Thanks. I wasn't sure if you could keep it rolling

[ornate lake]

How much of a damage loss is it when I use SS inside blades when the 4P is already up?

[hazy breach]

In ST about 1%

In aoe a lot more, depends

[slate lantern]

Keep it rolling is an outlaw ability

[karmic harbor]

how much of a dmg loss is finishing at 5cp instead of 6cp in shd

[acoustic matrix]

Any of you fine gentlemen got a few minutes for a log review ? I feel like I've got the basics down but my damage is still lowish
#subtlety message

[ripe smelt]

how many stacks should i be at before i use my netherprism?

[acoustic matrix]

18 is the biggest value

But if you're only on one on use I think you macro it to shadow blades

[round grotto]

what stats does the leather wrists catalyst into

[ripe smelt]

yeah i macrod it to shadow blades but if i pop shadow on pull then im using w 0 stacks

it builds w any finisher use also right?

[acoustic matrix]

I'm not sure

[lucid jackal]

Just use it with blades

Doesn't matter how many stacks

[dusk stone]

tea

i die on the hill of cb just straight being bad because you run out of energy in cds at times

[turbid edge]

It seems to be 50/50 at the high keys anyway

[dusk stone]

well you also cant dcd that well with cb

[clever delta]

just killed fractilus which mean im not palying assa again this season (surely)

[lofty tundra]

what wep enchants are we using

[hazy breach]

A secondary stat one that isnt haste

[lofty tundra]

Should have worded that better, meant the wep oils or sharpening stones

[turbid edge]

Not radiant power?

[vale pine]

radiant power is still fine, but you should just sim

[turbid edge]

I'm kinda broke on gold now. Is there an all-round good option for sub/sin for m+ only?

[hazy breach]

A secondary stat one that isnt haste

[warped zodiac]

anyone got a dawnbreaker 12(or higher) overall i can peep at to compare

[frank cloud]

at what point do we stop mastery and go for more vers? never? i'm at 113% mastery & 19% vers - 14% crit & 1% haste if it matters. I guess just sim it?

[swift tinsel]

The robot will tell you when you should start redistributing your stats

Mastery def looks high relative to crit and vers though

[stable rain]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[ripe smelt]

even if its j off pull w practically no stacks? and any advice to build stacks quicker?

[lucid jackal]

Well, not on pull but every other time lol

[vale pine]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

There's no way to get stacks quicker

[ripe smelt]

so its j completely random to get stacks right? any dmg ability of mine will have a chance to get a stack?

[limber folio]

i think i did good

[hazy breach]

Its not random at all

[limber folio]

:3

[hazy breach]

It procs every 10 seconds as long as youre hitting something

[ripe smelt]

oh okay ty didnt know that