subtlety

[haughty mural]

Which dungeon

I can go on

[bleak panther]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[compact violet]

Ye sorry
For double or triple pack like 7+ targets
On dance the prio is sectec - boosted evi - bp for the finishers and u just use one shuriken to apply weakness then spam strike right

[hazy breach]

You spam strike to build cp

[vale pine]

the only time you use storm in dance is for the 4 set proc during blades

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

see #2 on the list

[jaunty heath]

I’ve went in a little blind into the tier compared to normally, #2 almost never occurs tho right

Like I don’t think I’ve had to build cps yet

[compact violet]

Alright thank, ive seen some rogue playing with roten for big big pull

[jaunty heath]

During blades after first coup

[vale pine]

i have it happen quite a bit

but blades is overall a small part of the time so ye

[jaunty heath]

Interesting, I cant remember it happening, maybe it does and my brain just shadowstrikes out of reaction

[steep raven]

Are you supposed to press SB+trinket after sectec? Kinda doesn't make sense, can someone explain please

This is random imexile log but I see a lot of people doing it

[hazy breach]

You can if you want to, it used to be better before when sectech wasnt working with blades

But now its neutral to doing it right before sectech

[steep raven]

But trinket buff? Won't sectec do more dmg with more mainstat? It's less than a gcd difference of pressing it

[hazy breach]

Most of sectechs damage happens 1s and 1.3s after you press it

But again, theres no difference between doing this and doing it before sectech

Its just muscle memory because in the past using it after was better

[steep raven]

Oh, so this specific way of doing it doesn't matter, you still buff it anyways

[steep raven]

Thanks, now it makes sense

[haughty mural]

To understand that you need to understand sectech first:
the initial hit (which is physical) does ~20% of sectech dmg overall
The most dmg comes from clones which are hitting 1s and 1.3s after the initial hit
Since shadowblades didn’t buff the initial hit a few patches ago it was a gain to use blades right after sectech so it would still buff the clones (where the most dmg comes from)

I hope that makes sense

And now it’s neutral

[steep raven]

But now SB does work for all of sectec, yes?

[haughty mural]

Yes

[steep raven]

Ok, this is also "correct" way to do the opener, yes?

[chrome lake]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[haughty mural]

Should be fine

[dusk stone]

tempered potion is not in right spot

but i do the same thing

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter where you put the pot

Thats a fine place

[steep raven]

I thought your first actual damage starts on first sectec, that's why I binded it to SB. Before I had it on Flag

+3s to CD, sure

[split garden]

trying to learn sub, might be a dumb question but do i actually need to have seperate binds for backstab and shadow strike? or does shadow strike not just turn into backstab when u have stealth effects

[haughty mural]

I press it manually in such cases ( on rupture most of the times)
But as eleem said it doesn’t matter

[shadow lance]

You dont need

[haughty mural]

But I neither have symbols nor pot nor trinket macrod

[shadow lance]

But some pref having both on diff keybind

[steep raven]

@hazy breach @haughty mural Thank you guys for explanation, much appreciated :)

[shadow lance]

And you should press bs in dance at least one

[dusk stone]

i meant to ask stealthi was saying you couldn't get the TR storm to sim higher in the opener than just finality build

the storm after sectec to apply FW

[split garden]

is the backstab button supposed to turn into shadow strike or do i need marco if i dont want them on seperate binds

[haughty mural]

TR means rotten in that case I assume ?

[dusk stone]

yes

[shadow lance]

Yes

It turns in Shadowstrike by itslef

BUT

as I say

Yo u should have a BS button, even in dance

[hazy breach]

Not sure exactly what youre asking, but yes using storm as your first global in dance is not particularly good in sims

[dusk stone]

you apply storm after sectec with the rotten

to apply FW

[haughty mural]

We don’t anymore

[shadow lance]

Guys, you need to stop with this

[hazy breach]

Yes im aware, thats how it was before mid undermine in sims

[shadow lance]

You press storm between coup under cd

[split garden]

weird mine doesnt turn into shadowstriker, am i dumb?

[dusk stone]

we're not doing that anymore?

[hazy breach]

But especially with this new tier making strikes and unseen blade way better its just not good

[dusk stone]

how should i be using the rotten then?

[shadow lance]

You don't

Some times

You still got it for you between coup storm

But not that worth to play around

[haughty mural]

Also you usually press storms while gathering and inbetween coups
And with how much crit we are getting with gear now you are usually have enough fws up

[shadow lance]

Dunno mate, mine change by itself but it's cuz I switch between bars

[hazy breach]

Like yeah, using storm to apply fw to all targets makes BP do way more damage, but the storm itself does no damage.
And shadowstrike proccing the 2p with 2 unseen blades does similar damage to what BP does, not to mention it furthers your coup stacks and allow you to coup more often

[hazy breach]

Thats because you have some sort of macro, it doesnt by itself

or youve placed them on the same spot as backstab on your stealth bar etc

[dapper saffron]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[shadow lance]

I just chec kwhat Eleem told me

[topaz venture]

can i not just macro symbols to dance?

[shadow lance]

Indeed I have macro

Sorry mate

[haughty mural]

Strike + ub is so much dmg compared to storm

[shadow lance]

I did some Misinformation

[shadow lance]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[topaz venture]

i dont get how it isnt recommended

[split garden]

also am i missing something here? there is no "above shadow dance and shadow strike macro"

[topaz venture]

i thought symbols and dance r pressed all the time

majority of the time

[shadow lance]

You dont press Dance and SoD always in the same time

[haughty mural]

Not always no

Wait wrong quote

[topaz venture]

oh i thought they were just pressed together

[shadow lance]

Nope

Best exemple is tfd opener

Dance is 12 sec and sod 10

[devout jackal]

Bit late to sub, if we have s2 tier do we run a different build than the one posted in the wowhead guide for M+

[shadow lance]

And you wanna press sod with sectech cd <= 10 sec

[haughty mural]

You adjust symbols to always supercharge sectech

[shadow lance]

Sometimes you still in dance when you do that

[haughty mural]

And sometimes you are still in dance when you do that

[haughty mural]

You were faster

[shadow lance]

KEKW

@hazy breach Was checking the macro I've put in bar years ago now

Do you know if bonusbar macro's lagging?

I know there's a macro that put some lag in inputs but I can't remember one

Cuz I got both bonusbar:1 and stance:1 and can't tell which one is fcuking up

[sand stream]

https://www.twitch.tv/casualaddict_/clip/CaringGenerousJaguarPoooound-JHJTERwnzB9KqHWy

"Everytime you activate _______" whats he saying here? sorry, haven't played sub yet

[open vortex]

The Rotten

[sand stream]

ahhhhhh thanks a ton

[teal night]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusk stone]

just to clarify im not storming after sectec anymore for FW

because that clip with casual was from today

[mystic talon]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tribal blade]

nice less thinky

me likely less thinky

[steel jolt]

no thinky just zug

[winter ice]

This is like 1-2% loss right? or is it that important

[shadow lance]

It way more

Not having supercharged Sectec is a big loss

[winter ice]

Well you have it just 1-2 g cds later

[shadow lance]

Macro it then

And play how you wanna play

[tribal blade]

i wonder if it's ok to not supercharge sectec if you supercharge coup

iirc it was close before

[shadow lance]

Supercharge both

[bleak night]

sometimes i accidentally do that so i hope so

[tribal blade]

18 CP coup SHEEEESH

[hazy breach]

Well no 12+3 is 15

[tribal blade]

oh nvm

i'm r word

[bleak night]

maf

[hazy breach]

But thats precisely the reason why its not important

[tribal blade]

i'm the worst half asian ever haha

[sullen hare]

Revolutionary?

[hazy breach]

Like eviscerate and coup have the same damage per combo point

(since coup is eviscerate)

So supercharging eviscerate and supercharging coup is the literal exact thing

[compact violet]

since nimble fury only hit 7 target, something change if u have a giga pull like 15-20 targets ?

i guess this is where rotten + shuriken become usefull

[hazy breach]

The 4p coup is obviously a bit stronger, but its only like 30% which isnt anywhere near to bring it up to the same level of sectech

[compact violet]

(for big pushers)

[hazy breach]

No

BP gets softcapped after 8 anyway

[compact violet]

sorry for all thoses questions and thanks a lot for ur time Eleem and Fuu

[hazy breach]

So the difference between 20 and 8 isnt that much

[compact violet]

the softcap is that huge ?

[hazy breach]

Well youre doing like 50% more total damage with BP at 20 targets than you are at 8

Compared to 150% if it wasnt softcapped

[compact violet]

ok thanks

and a last one

ive seen some pushers playing tornado

and dropping veiltouched

why and when u do that ?

[shadow lance]

When you got a lot of big pulls

And ou want the Tornado cdr

So I'll say Gambit

[open vortex]

so in big aoe with rotten, is it not worth to use one stack of rotten on storm anymore? thought the fw on a lot of targets would be worth the dmg loss on strike

[upbeat sorrel]

chat if i am during my cd's (flag/blades) im on my 2nd or 3rd dance of my CD's - and my sectec is like 5 or 7 seconds from coming off of CD and im not currently in dance, is it okay to send a dance and an evis to get sectec to come off cooldown with the CDR and then send a sectec with the 2nd charge of my supercharger

[shadow lance]

yes

[upbeat sorrel]

is that technically a stronger sectec because of danse macabre or does that not really optimize that way

[shadow lance]

Sending SecTech ASAP > Dance Macabre stack

So if SecTech is off cd, better use it instantly

[upbeat sorrel]

okay that makes sense to get more sectecs

[chrome palm]

If it isn’t already up

[shadow lance]

You don't "want sectech being the first finisher"

You want sectech being on cd asap

[woeful wren]

What's ideal comp for sub in M+ with rdru?

[shadow lance]

Get a sham

Rest is wathever

[bleak night]

the answer is indeed shaman

[woeful wren]

Just for the master buff?

[open vortex]

prot war, rdruid, ele, sub, probably havoc or something.

[shadow lance]

It's not just a mastery buff

[bleak night]

its mastery and auto speed

which is very nice

very nice indeed

[shadow lance]

It's 6% dps in ST

[chrome palm]

Didn’t see he said in flag

[woeful wren]

oh its that high?

cos of sh techs?

[shadow lance]

Yep

[woeful wren]

damn fair

[shadow lance]

You can fit one dance more every 2 cds

[woeful wren]

also was gna ask, when do u guys send prism in raid? like if ur starting zero stacks do u just hold for 2nd rotation?

[shadow lance]

Even if not in flag, you got dance, sod and sectech <10 sec cd remaining, you can dance sod backstack evis ss Sectech

[potent echo]

hi guys, with sub i have to craft weapon without embelishments?

[chrome palm]

I think it’s better to secret first

For coup in dance

[shadow lance]

And I think you're wrong

[chrome palm]

What does it say above that window

[shadow lance]

I'm trying to get your point

[chrome palm]

Doesn’t it say “don’t use this as a guide” or something above the sample window

But also this might be a different case because it just cast coup

So maybe it wants to use secret early as possible to benefit from flawless

[silent maple]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale widget]

delve belt couldnt be changed until you get a myth belt, right?

[timber zenith]

do we build the second coup up to 6cp?

or rip on whatever ss leave it on

[chrome palm]

Whatever you can if you’re not in dance it’s okay to cast with less cp

[shadow lance]

Flawless is not up anymore when bot you sectech

[chrome palm]

There’s 13 stacks when it casts it and 9 when it lands

[little epoch]

!talents

[shadow lance]

I mean, you lost most of the gain from coup

[chrome palm]

[bleak night]

[shadow lance]

So, following you, only sectec should be cast after sod

No evis, no coup

[chrome palm]

Not necessarily

[shadow lance]

That's what you said earlier

Or I missed something?

[chrome palm]

2nd coup supercharged is pog but is kinda rare

[shadow lance]

Was checking your logs, sometimes yo supercharge first coup and sectech in this order

[hybrid compass]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[shadow lance]

Why not use coup and supercharge sectech + 2nd coup?

[chrome palm]

O where did I do that

I might’ve made a mistake

[shadow lance]

Fractillus and Sentinel

[chrome palm]

I’d have to see the log to know why I did that

Do you have a picture

[shadow lance]

I did close the windows, i'm looking back at it

[winter ice]

This is what I do

Someone said it eats blades of something I can’t check my
Earlier messages from tonight

[shadow lance]

Apologies, I didn't check right

It was either solo sod

Or during Flag

[chrome palm]

It eats disorienting strikes but still could be good since you might get another secret in

I think it depends

[chrome palm]

I’ve definitely done it sometimes by accident so you’re probably right regardless 🙈

[shadow lance]

So, using sectech as second supercharged is worth only during cd

But for simple SD, better get a maximum of stacks by pressing it first

[chrome palm]

I find it pretty common to land on 5s of secret cd in blades, so I usually don’t symbols that Evis either

Because it doesn’t change when you cast secret

And whatever finisher after that has +1 flawless form, and you’re more likely to overcap sod pandemic

[raven jackal]

is it technically optimal to shadowdance/symbols > backstab > eviscerate > shadowstrike > sectec so it still gets turbocharged but is later in the dance so it gets buffed harder?

[shadow lance]

Read above

[chrome palm]

Not again

[shadow lance]

Hey, I was.not speaking about dance macabre buff

Just cdr

[tribal blade]

this rsham just said "any stop would have been good" on a pull we wiped on

did 0 cc on details

did as many kicks as the lock

gg

[shadow lance]

Btw, you rather coup, dance, bs, sod, sectech, storm, coup

[chrome palm]

“Where are the stops “ - Mr Stops

[tribal blade]

i would link the screenshots but don't wanna shame him haha

[shadow lance]

Or dance before the first coup

[tribal blade]

"if only we had a cc machine in this group"

[raven jackal]

rsham is hard to stop with man, they only have thunderstorm/doublecap/lowest cd int in the game

[chrome palm]

For sure you dance before the first coup

[shadow lance]

I don't know why I'm asking that, it looks stupid

I had a reflexion about it

But can't remember what

[earnest canyon]

new sub rogue here asking a stupid question... im assuming #11 means, cast shadow blades first then secret technique?

or would there be a reason to cast st first then sb

[shadow lance]

Doesn't matter now

[chrome palm]

Secret technique is a delayed attack

So technically you could use blades slightly before or just after secret technique

[shadow lance]

Before, sb was boosting only the second part of secret technique

Now, it boost everything

But most of sectech damages are from second part

[earnest canyon]

icic! thanks for the info

[shadow lance]

You can cast in the same time

I know people that macro'd it together

[past skiff]

thistle tea macro

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[shadow lance]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[winter ice]

And then sod the second lonely coup ?

[earnest canyon]

if i did everything perfectly, would macroing them together be good

[shadow lance]

Sod sectech and so. The second coup yes

[winter ice]

It would be sod 1st coup sectech sod 2nd coup evis?

[shadow lance]

I'm not doing it but you will always press Sect with you blades so it should be ok

[shadow lance]

No,
Dance, coup, bs, sod, sectech, storm, coup

[winter ice]

But

Wrong one mb

[shadow lance]

SoD boost 2 finishers

[winter ice]

So your not sod second coup

[hazy breach]

Supercharge your sectech

[shadow lance]

So sectech and sec coup are boosted

[winter ice]

if you aren’t delaying sod

[hazy breach]

Theres no reason to bother trying to supercharge the second coup

Like youre giving up 16% damage on that first coup, just to get less than that in return by supercharging the second one

[winter ice]

Exactly so just send the sod for sec>1st coup

[shadow lance]

And if sectech is still on cd?

[silent maple]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[shadow lance]

And sectech give more flawless stacks

[vocal bolt]

Do we apply rupture to all targets in m+ or like 3-5?

[shadow lance]

All if they live long enough but don't delay your cd for that

E.g. rupture while pack is gathered, once gathered, use cds, ruptures long living target remaining

[grand viper]

Only targets that live for 12 seconds or longer

But don’t wait to send cds like they said

[blazing yew]

if you have full CPs after a coup (like have full stacks of the thing that refills CPs after a finisher) do you still SS before the second Coup?

[hazy breach]

No

You would not use a combo point generator if you do not need to generate combo points

[empty plume]

been noticing the premed shadowcraft bug more since finding it
I think sometimes it's actually beneficial and sometimes detrimental. mixed feelings

specifically dance-coup will just never refund even if you gain the stacks late for what would typically have been a late refund

[shadow lance]

Refund is in sod not in dance

[empty plume]

#subtlety message

lore

[shadow lance]

We can't watch

[empty plume]

ah

well you missed the lore

[shadow lance]

Yes, sorry you speaking about a bug I didn't notify

[plush roost]

no prism no antenna no araz who cares

brrr

[empty plume]

just reread what i said and assume symbols is running

because ofc refund is based on symbols

any premed source prevents refund from shadowcraft

so dance -> any finisher

[civic lake]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[shadow lance]

Yes, but everyone asking questions here isn't aware of that

[empty plume]

I wasn't answering any questions

was kinda just a standalone thought

it's like noticing something that bothers you, and you can't un-notice it

I am aware of the bug now and it's weird but can be good or bad situationally I think

[shadow lance]

And your explanation were lacking informations, didn't have the lore that you linked after

Sorry

But, if i get it well

[topaz venture]

what key

[shadow lance]

No refund if you use a finisher after generating cp with premed?

[plush roost]

floodyG

[empty plume]

.

[bitter halo]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[topaz venture]

key lvl?

[plush roost]

just a rat 16

[shadow lance]

Yes, I understand rightly then

[shadow lance]

Ggz

[empty plume]

end result is dance-coup-coup, or dance-sectech-coup, are never possible sequences - there will always be a builder for danse macabre

[trail bane]

any log to that? which talents are u runnin

[hybrid compass]

whats the mastery cap i want to get or is -10% penalty worthless?

[shadow lance]

I won't be able to not pay attention to that now

[plush roost]

sec i can upload

[shadow lance]

No cap, better sim your char

[plush roost]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aqzB4ft3Yk7dyCgV

[trail bane]

thankss

[shadow lance]

You should try with finality and tornado on this key

And reach the 11M

[plush roost]

Thats pad, I want to do damage to bosses still

hehe

[shadow lance]

Yes, that's why I'm sticking to CB and not tea

[trail bane]

is it normal that "Improved Shadow Techniques" and "Planned Execution" sim higher in dslice than "The first Dance" ?

and why

😄

[shadow lance]

Read talent, I'm sure you'll understand

You need to be out of fight for a
6 sec

[hazy breach]

Yes but take the first dance anyway, the sim only gets TFD on pull but it should get it like 6 more times

[shadow lance]

DSlice don't do that as far as I know

[plush roost]

Theres so many ways to game tfd tbh

[hazy breach]

And youll see that its still reasonably close with just 1 (!) use of it, so 7 uses makes it significantly better

[plush roost]

very insane talent

[trail bane]

that makes sense

ty!

[shadow lance]

Yes, it's really cool

I'm trying to play more around with the vanish

Like, I know tank will chain and I got cd's coming, just vanish to be able to proc before entering in the new pack

Better than just an instant CP generator

I think at least

[rapid stream]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rapid stream]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[silent maple]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[stoic flower]

This is obviously "feelcraft", but I swear I think I do more dmg in m+ when I just shadowstrike -> eviscerate and let nimble flurry do it's thing, rather than storm -> bp lol

and the add I wanna kill dies faster

[brave harbor]

How does the talent "So Tricky" work? Do I just unbind tricks?

or only press it once and it works for the whole dungeon

[hazy breach]

Well ye, you dont want to storm in dance

Because if you do you wont get coups or unseen blades, pretty much just ignoring your entire hero tree

[slate trellis]

On first boss ara kara, am i dumpiung cds and dances into the boss or into the adds? The fight feels so clunky for me

[bleak night]

ideally boss is positioned so you can cleave adds and hit boss

[sick basin]

Boss, and hope you have good ranged to do to the adds for you

[bleak night]

but in pugs they normally take that shit to the opposite side of the map

so gl

[brave harbor]

I thought we were supposed to do shuriken into second coup

[stoic flower]

Oops, yeah I meant throw in a storm, then strike -> bp**

[sick basin]

While also running through a lake of webs

[slate trellis]

Also does this loo okay for overall ? I see some with rupture way higher some with it really low

[hazy breach]

Yes

[stoic flower]

Ya that's for the tier set

Was talking about general AoE in m+

[brave harbor]

although if we are in dance or not right?

[untold onyx]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[brisk raptor]

do you still use backstab for macabre stacks in aoe opener?

and if playing the rotten should you use shuriken storm first global to build combo points in dance to apply fw to everything?

[broken stirrup]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[hazy breach]

Ye but its less impactful when you get to higher target counts

[hazy breach]

No

[brisk raptor]

any particular reason why you wouldn't want to do this? is fw just not valuable enough to use it over shadowstrike?

[hazy breach]

When you storm you aint proccing your unseen blades from trickster

And not advancing your coup stacks

Or interacting with your tierset

[brisk raptor]

ahhh makes sense

[hazy breach]

A shadowstrike with the 2p proc does similar damage to a full cp BP

[brisk raptor]

i guess that's why some people aren't running rotten?

[noble stirrup]

is there a way to track the UB cd? I find in aoe if i havent had a proc in a bit i hit BS to proc it but wanted to see if I could track it instead

[hazy breach]

You cannot accurately track it no

Its a hidden buff unfortunately

[steel jolt]

that's why it's called an unseen blade

[hazy breach]

Lore accurate

Although with sub gaining a bit more popularity this tier our techniques are getting less secret by the day

[devout jackal]

does sub just not do dmg in keys outside of SB/flag windows?

i got stuck on a boss doing like 800k st lol

[hazy breach]

It does fine damage during dance

But yes outside dance you do no damage

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[devout jackal]

hmm maybe i am sitting on dance too much

[rapid stream]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[woeful wren]

See a lot of ppl running araz with prism rather than antenna, is it just more consistant?

[glad rampart]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

Ppl used it in worldfirst a lot so ppl just copy it

Its very good on dimensius and nexus king

Its just an alternative to antenna, I wouldn't call it dramatically better or woese

[bleak wind]

is there some bug with coup right now? I am seeing some people randomly doing an extra 50% average hit

[hazy breach]

I saw a log on fract too, but im unaware

[woeful wren]

So situational on movement cos u cannot collect?

[lucid jackal]

No

Prism with Forge, DH trinket, or antenna are all very similar

[hazy breach]

Prism is the star of the show

[lucid jackal]

Forge gets a lot of value on the last 2 bosses because you can get 18 stacks for important parts of the encounter without having to do cooldown sets without an on use

[woeful wren]

Ah, that makes sense ig

[bleak wind]

suspiciously what the 4p number is

[hazy breach]

Ye, although 4p is more like 30%

Because its not affecting shadowed finishers

[bleak wind]

maybe it gets bugged and applies to all

or something like that

[fallen depot]

!log

if anyone has time for this log review

[tacit coral]

do we never send shuriken storm outside shadowdance if we dont have flawless form up?

[hazy breach]

So almost always send shuriken storm outside shadowdance

[tacit coral]

what does this mean ?

[prime raft]

why does sub build vers over crit?

[lucid jackal]

cuz its more damage

[tribal blade]

more vers more dmg

more vers more DR

double win

sub rogue performing really well and we're still that low

and double the amount of sin rogues over sub

sheesh

don't think sub actually qualifies as a meta spec

[tacit coral]

if the conditions to use shuriken storm are met, do we still shuriken storm if we have unseen blade procs available?

[potent relic]

Death stalker assa has a bunch of bugs rn though

[hazy breach]

Sure, so does sub

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[tribal blade]

yeah it does, yet still has double the amount of players

[still depot]

It's a marketing problem kek

[tribal blade]

and yeah sub has had crazy amount of bugs over the years

[wide maple]

In streets on a 14+ or higher do you guys full send cd on 1st pull or wait for 2nd with lust

[vagrant fulcrum]

at what target counts is it worth to fit both bp and evisc in dance (not coup, that always takes prio - im talking regular eviscerate)

[tribal blade]

i'm actually surprised a bunch of guildies asked me "is sin really bugged??'

[hazy breach]

We dont give a shit about lust

So

[tribal blade]

yet nobody ever hears about sub bugs

[wide maple]

But 1st pull is so mid

[tribal blade]

(because nobody knows sub exists smile)

[vagrant fulcrum]

highkey sub has been more bugged for longer than sin

[tribal blade]

sitting on cds as sub is not good

plus if you don't send cds on that pull

you'll need to send 2-3 dances

[vagrant fulcrum]

it's just sin got a lot of bugs at the same time recently with the spatter fix

[tribal blade]

to kill it

[wide maple]

So just full send always in m+?

[tribal blade]

depends

but there definitely do not sit on cds

[hazy breach]

It got 1 new ye

Its literally just whispyr video diff

But even though whispyr clearly said all the numbers correctly in his vid somehow the info being spread is still wrong

[tribal blade]

you can treat sub as the spec that will send cds when others are holding for lust

like 1st pull DB

full send there too

[tribal blade]

this actually

[vagrant fulcrum]

I don't remember half these bugs being as common as now

but yeah I do think some of them like the envenom bug has been around for almost the whole expac

[hazy breach]

Like the singular focus thing is new

But on the other hand

[wide maple]

Every spec is omega bugged

[hazy breach]

Singular focus hasnt worked with sectech or shadow blades for the entire expac

[wide maple]

Blizzard is lucky raid is cool

[hazy breach]

So its like

[tribal blade]

nah not on the same level i think

[hazy breach]

Most are

[tribal blade]

most other classes get their bugs fixed faster it seems

[wide maple]

bm Hunter is most bugged

You legit cannot play sometimes

[tribal blade]

good i hope they rot in hell 🙂

[wide maple]

Lmao true

Demo lock same thing

[vagrant fulcrum]

how did you find this out xd

[hazy breach]

Afaik they still get griefed by shroud

[tribal blade]

the lock stuff is pretty tragic

[hazy breach]

Their precasting of something bricks if they have shroud

[tribal blade]

how blizz keeps "fixing" their pets and they keep breaking

[hazy breach]

Just hit a dummy

[wide maple]

I mean not having pets as a bm hunter is wild

[vagrant fulcrum]

only ever was legal to play ds on st, wouldn't expect ds to be tested for multitarget

which ironically is the reverse of how ds is for sin

spatter carries the hero tree

[alpine wraith]

spatter betrayedf assa tho

[stoic flower]

fun thing about sub though, is usually when i see a sub rogue, chances are they're a gamer cause there's so few of us lol

[tribal blade]

TRUE

[stoic flower]

there's lots of questionable assa and outlaw

[tribal blade]

although i'm sometimes a questionable sub rogue 🙂

[stoic flower]

same same

[grand viper]

Def more subs than outlaw

Prob goes assa,sub,law

[marble mauve]

How do i get a macro to not spam symbols. tried this but it doesnt work #showtooltip Symbols of Death
/castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null
/cqs
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Eviserate

[tribal blade]

!symbols

hrm i forgot the command

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[tribal blade]

cool

[marble mauve]

How do you guys get it working with dance and evis though.

[tribal blade]

i don't get it

oh

i would strongly suggest not macroing dance and symbols together

also not macro dance+evis together

all 3 of those things shouldn't be macro'd to 1 another

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[prime raft]

easier to play

[marble mauve]

i will have it on a specific keybind for the situation where you'd want to use them together

for mage i have two surge macros, 3 touch macros, but this kind is different

[frail night]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[zealous flint]

Hey guys, slowly getting the hang of it all, BUT, a bit confused on when to use shuriken storm in the opener/burst windows

[swift tinsel]

between coups during blades

if you don't get a shadowcraft refund

[zealous flint]

between the set bonus coups?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[zealous flint]

AHHHH

Ok, so if refun, just send a coup

if not, shuriken into coup the 2nd

[swift tinsel]

can also do it outside blades if you have enough shadow techniques stacks to get 6+ cp from a storm

[zealous flint]

Is it a huge DPS diff?

[swift tinsel]

eh

not like a massive thing

but sub is built on 0.8-1% optimizations like that

[coarse island]

any rotation guide for m+ ?

[swift tinsel]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[sleek tide]

what flask is best? just alc chaos?

[celest juniper]

anyone have a tip on getting the sound from the Shadowcraft WA to be louder without making everything else blow my ears out?

[short radish]

just did this. feels good

getting 2nd sectech in first dance

[short radish]

you can change what audio channel it goes into

[warm marlin]

ye you also build more sht so it makes it a lot more guaranteed

kinda bad on some fights though delaying flag by 2 globals can be a bit cringe

[short radish]

which fights you reckon it sucks

[warm marlin]

nexus king

[short radish]

oh yeah

bro our nexus king heroic kill this week

the guy died 2 seconds before i was sending my CB sectech

[warm marlin]

we stopped fighting him

loot sucks

[tame imp]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[short radish]

healers need trinkets or something

apparently theyre considered people

[warm marlin]

ick

[woeful wren]

any1 going to craft engi bracers btw?

the pure vers seems like it would help a lot

[hazy knoll]

so why do you run tfd on the single target talents

is there a bug related to MoS or

[warm marlin]

mos is entirely useless

[topaz agate]

Is it not for backstab

Big CP

[warm marlin]

your alternative is weaponmaster and it also sucks

[topaz agate]

@warm marlin can you explain the pre pull cheese?

[warm marlin]

infinite duration and persists through death

cast sectec on trash or boss before wipe and dont cast backstab or shadowstrike until pull and have 3 guaranteed unseen blades on your first 3 builders

[topaz agate]

So you do this once

And it works for the rest of your raid?

[warm marlin]

no you have to refresh it before wipe every time

[topaz agate]

Ahh ok

Bit of a pain then

But still cool

Thank you

[warm marlin]

ya on some bosses its a bit annoying

you can send dance for some extra cp and cloak to stay alive a bit to try to get it off before wipe

and then die insta

[strong depot]

Do you hold coup de grace for cd's or just send it when it pops?

[plain jay]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[strong depot]

Thank you

[hazy knoll]

makes sense

and you don't really need more cps

[warm marlin]

and wm is bugged to be extra bad

[hazy knoll]

bugged how

[warm marlin]

the cps procced by sht happen before the additional wm strike

so if you shadowstrike to 3 and proc 4 cp from sht, then your wm attack happens, you waste the 3 extra cp it would have generated

[hazy knoll]

very cool

[hazy knoll]

and whats teh targets in range tracker for here

when to storm?

[brazen steppe]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

and for eviscerate/bp i guess to tell how many you would be hitting

[hazy knoll]

i kinda just assumed with nimble you just wanna fuck up the prio target

[warm marlin]

black powder at 4 targets or more unless you want slightly more prio damage (and still coup regardless of target count)

[rotund rock]

u guys evis or bp on big momma

[hazy knoll]

dam bp wins on 4 even with nimble huh

[rotund rock]

honestly dont know whats better on that boss

[hazy knoll]

prolly evis on the adds

[rotund rock]

like when shes not dam amp and adds need to die fast is bp better? its 5 adds right

cuz bp on 4+ would insinuate its better dps

[short radish]

its this

basically numbers within aoe range

because i cant use my eyes and count

[hazy knoll]

well i figured that i just meant what its intended use is for

[brave harbor]

I dont get this actually. Can you explain why?

dance + symbol thing

I mean isnt it one of the bursts dance-symbols-backstab-sectech

[lucid jackal]

No

not always

In the opener you dance first, and then symbols like, 2-3 globals later because of supercharger lining up for sectec

And outside of opener, you do basically only do dance + symbols together, but not always insta backstab, insta sectec

[sharp lake]

It’s because in your Shadow Blades burst window, you need to line up your second Symbols of Death cast so it supercharges your second Secret Technique. In practice, your second Symbols comes about 1-2 seconds after your second Shadow Dance

[lucid jackal]

Sometimes you do dance sod coup backstab sectec

[civic pagoda]

Do we only Play Double on use in m+ If WE get araz Ritual forge and netherprism ?

[lucid jackal]

yeh

[earnest canyon]

im reading the wow guides for sub rogue on wowhead and method (listed in the FAQ section in this discord)
i noticed their multi target is a little bit different. which one is more correct?

[lethal lark]

There's a whole list of subtle optimizations in the wowhead guide. Method might be including some of that.

[split garden]

Can someone explain to me the idea of munching unseen blade procs with the sectec double coup to me like I’m a child

Or link me to something explaining. Help is much appreciated

[gritty kite]

1mistakes

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[cunning anvil]

Guys, is there any reason for me to use backstab instead of ShadowStrike?

[vagrant fulcrum]

premed

[cunning anvil]

Long time I haven't played sub and i'm having a hard time with the rotation

[vagrant fulcrum]

danse macabre

[cunning anvil]

Should I alternate between BS and SS then?

[vagrant fulcrum]

no, you follow the priority

aka 1 backstab at the start of dance due to premed

and backstab outside of dance to generate

[silent maple]

why are boots not a craft option?

[vagrant fulcrum]

look at soulhunters boots extra effect

[cunning anvil]

Dance → Backstab → Finisher → SS?

[silent maple]

figured, but i dont raid so...no real chance to get them

[vagrant fulcrum]

yes

from then on you use ss to generate in dance

[cunning anvil]

How about AoE?

It used to be SS up until 3 targets. Now that doesn't seem like a "rule" anymore

[cunning anvil]

awesome, ty

[vagrant fulcrum]

you ss on all target counts in dance

and i mean shadowstrike

not shuriken storm

[cunning anvil]

haha, i got that

so, just to be clear: only Shuriken Storm out of dance

[vagrant fulcrum]

outside of a 4pc optimisation yes

[earnest canyon]

but doesnt shadowstrike give full combo points too, so both backstab and shadowstrike give full combo points

[vagrant fulcrum]

yes but which would you rather buff by a few% dmg

backstab or shs?

you use backstab first since it's weaker too

so you gain more from macabre by using stab first then ss later

[earnest canyon]

ah isee, the more different spells gains extra 6%

i see the reasonig

[cunning anvil]

yep, it's a free 6% buff

[fallen depot]

alright man who do i pay for coaching

[earnest canyon]

sorry im confused a little. the method guide says opener is this, but dont really see backstab in this

#10 should be backstab right

[warm marlin]

its neutral in large aoe to backstab

probably isnt in there for simplicity

[split garden]

anyone have a good shadow technique tracker?

[wicked urchin]

We only care about FW with rotten right?

[split garden]

this picture is outdated bc tier set right?

[warm marlin]

the only difference is that 7 would also be a coup and you would storm between 6 and 7 if you didnt proc

[silent maple]

!belt

[autumn sierra]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[coarse agate]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[ornate heron]

is it worth it to shuriken storm once in aoe during dance for a macabre stack?

or shadowstrike better for damage and more unseen blades?

[willow fulcrum]

in aoe situations, do we ever use Shuriken Storm within dance, other than between the 2 Coups?

or is it always SS?

[jade urchin]

always sinister strikes

except the storm u mentioned

at least as long as we dont play the rotten talent

[wicked urchin]

storm to spread fw if you’re running the rotten im pretty sure

yeah

[lofty path]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[wicked urchin]

non-tea m+ build still uses rotten but in raid it shouldn’t be relevant

do you still storm between coups outside of blades?

[fair stump]

I'm having a bit of trouble with the rotation, at some point during the first set of dances on the first flag/blades cd, I'm finding that my sectec is up but dance is around 15 secs cooldown, which is about 3 finishers or so

Is it better to send the sectec with just symbols at that point, do I press other finishers, what should I do at that point

This is usually the third or so dance within the opener

[prisma minnow]

So I never press shuriken tornado in opener?

On aoe

Like dont I care about applying find weakness to the pack before I send all my dmg?

[wicked urchin]

no and it’s not really recommended to take at all unless you’re hyper minmaxing

unless you’re talking about storm

and only m+

[jade urchin]

assuming u start with full dance+symbol stacks its usually:
cds -> 2 dance+symbols -> cds -> 1 dance + symbols -> cds -> 2 dance+symbols
you will be able to fit a symbols+sectech in addition between cds somewhere, but usually only once
if you add a dance somewhere inbetween assuming permanent combat you will delay your cooldowns at some point like u mentioned

[fair stump]

What is cds here? like flag and blades?

[jade urchin]

yes

[wicked urchin]

you have flexibility between cooldowns now too

[jade urchin]

rule of thumb is dont use shadowdance 30 seconds before your flag comes up

unless youre at 2 stacks or smth

[wicked urchin]

in between blades i’ll hold dances for antenna orbs but that’s something you have to get a feel for

[compact cobalt]

Anyone know how much of a loss it is dps wise to not backstab first in shadow dance

[fair stump]

So on opener is usually 2 dance + symbols and then wait until flag + blades again?

[wicked urchin]

you can 3 dance

[jade urchin]

opener with 2 dances => 2 dances outside of opener => repeat opener => 1 dance outside => repeat opener

it varies sometimes because of tset cause double coup gets you a LOT of cdr compared to last season

but symbols being 25 seconds cd will desync if u dance too often

i think you just have to get a feeling for when to not dance anymore

or when to symblos+sectech without dance

cause in m+ u have way more cdr cause of aoe

after that you can worry about when to put those dances for add spawns etc

[vagrant fulcrum]

question, do we ever just send a naked sectec

[jade urchin]

not really

[vagrant fulcrum]

situations where we don't wana send symbols while waiting for cds

is it dance + sectec then?

or do we just wait

and start blades with 2 full charges

[jade urchin]

just wait

[vagrant fulcrum]

i get it and it is rewarding

but i fucking hate this having to judge when to hold

and just doing zdps for like 10% of the time

[jade urchin]

as long as its ready when u need it do whatever

if u need to delay eqven a sec because of it is really bad

[vagrant fulcrum]

I miss when everything naturally lined up

heck I preferred dust to this

[jade urchin]

i love current state ngl

so flexible

[vagrant fulcrum]

idk i just feel like

i could be firing a lot more dance and sectecs

but without symbols

[wicked urchin]

the more you play the more natural this gets

[vagrant fulcrum]

admittedly I didn't really have much reason to play sub for most of this expac

[wicked urchin]

if you aren’t capping you aren’t wasting

[vagrant fulcrum]

capping sectec feels awful

im just fuming that we're forced to hold it

otherwise wont have 2x dance for blades

[proven plover]

U can send a dry sectec

Without symbols

[wicked urchin]

ye i was gonna say that too

[limpid sage]

You typically send the dry sectec at like 30 sec till flag

[tepid bluff]

very useful info! When i tried the opener, i didnt understand why we not continue with dance, since for me, i could do 3 dance in a row.

[limpid sage]

with 1 charge of symbols and no dance charges

[wicked urchin]

you can and mostly should on opener

[mint violet]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[wicked urchin]

if you haven’t used it check out lorrgs.io

you can see the ability timings from all top logs

[covert lagoon]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lucid jackal]

Yes but the situations are very niche, not worth a lot of damage, and catastrophic if you fuckup

[autumn sierra]

Hello Rogues!

I'm trying to learn Subtlety, after starting WoW 2 weeks ago, playing Assa rogue, I feel like I'm comfortable with its playstyle and am now able to compete for #1 spot on dps meters,

But now I wanna switch to Sub for doing M+ as I feel this is more consistent with AoE and Boss dmg, because with Assa, I feel my boss dmg is lacking.

However, I. JUST. CANNOT. UNDERSTAND. how it works.

I've read the WoWhead guide, and know the opener rotation but, there's just so much edge cases or scenarios where things don't line up and I feel I don't know the optimal answer yet for those situations (as with Assa rogue I feel it's more forgiving...eg., caught unstealthed? ez, just vanish, mass apply your bleeds)

Now, is there I guide I can digest which goes over each of the Sub's toolkit?

Scenarios that puzzle me:

1. What if I'm starting the next encounter Unstealthed? Caught between cooldowns?
2. How many mobs is it better to do Black Powders than Eviscerates?
3. Since Danse Macabre gives %atk power per each attack during Shadow Dance, is it better to delay the first Secret Techniques during the opener with a Shuriken Storm -> Black Powder in between?

Help me start this out please, I really wanna learn this spec.

[lucid jackal]

1. Doesn't really matter
2. 4
3. Nope

[umbral topaz]

Also to 1. you deal healer dps between CDs and thats ok 😂

[autumn sierra]

ok so outside of Bosses, Assa rogue is really expected to outperform Sub?

what's a good rotation/prio during downtime? This confuses me the most

[lucid jackal]

Unsure what ur first comment means

[autumn sierra]

1. what's a good rotation/prio during downtime? This confuses me the most
2. gotcha, do I forego Eviscerate totally? how about Unseen Blade and Coup de Grace?
3. alright, so just follow standard opener even on large packs?

[umbral topaz]

Still using sectec and dances etc between major CDs, so not that bad

[umbral topaz]

I find assa a bit more consistent in packs, but less boss and pretty much same overall depending on dungeon/tank/pulls

[autumn sierra]

oooohhh

[short radish]

Step 1 - Practice the opener on wowhead. Once that makes sense then every single dance is just that opener minus sblade/flag

Step 2 - Do the stuff you learnt in step 1. Make sure you're not just sending things off cooldown

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[autumn sierra]

do I even need to worry about Shuriken Storm -> Black Powder at all?

[short radish]

Step 3 - stop caring about your damage outside dances

just rupture shit

dont overcomplicate stuff early

just do the basic dance and opener

and you'll get like 90% effectiveness

[steady timber]

Applying ruptures does surprisingly good dmg

[sage saffron]

Since we are at it. How do I play around coup? Should could always be used in a dance window ideally? Does it matter? Should I hold my dance symbols if more than 30sec away from big cds and I am not overcapping to fish for a coup?

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

that yeah

[short radish]

just send coup outside of dance unless above

and yeah

hold dance/symbols around 30 secondsish

25-30

[sage saffron]

Is 30sec enough to recover both chargers of dance when I went all out just before or should I not be im that scenario?

[umbral topaz]

You can have some CD still, because you get alot of CDR during cds

[autumn sierra]

for the opener, with flag and s.blades, i'm expected to use 2 charges of dance and symbols, right?

now, since they're on 1.5min cooldowns, I can use one dance and symbols at most before saving them for the next full cd cycle?

[umbral topaz]

Dont remember exact timer, its also a bit rng

[short radish]

genrally going into flag you want 1.5 dances and 1.33 symbols

[runic kraken]

Should not be in that scenario. Ideally by the time Flag/Blades comes back you’d have at least 1 charge and halfway cd through the 2nd one.

[umbral topaz]

Personally i find,atleast in m+, that i need to worry more about symbols CD than dance 😂

[zealous flint]

During CD's for our 2nd dance/symbols do we just press them as sectech comes back up or once theyve fully expired?

[autumn sierra]

So outside of flag/s.blades, SecTec still worth popping everytime i use symbols and dance? (Which should be just 1 time right)

[autumn sierra]

During pandemic i guess

[wicked urchin]

sent you a dm

[umbral topaz]

Symbols in pancemic range IF one of your next 2 finishers are sectec
Dance at end of current dance

[runic kraken]

Refer to this one #subtlety message

[zealous flint]

yeah cool cause you cant dance with a dance active

its just weird sometimes i dance and have a few seconds left on symbols

[runic kraken]

It’s always like that outside First Dance.

[zealous flint]

ok so always press another symbols instead of greeding

[runic kraken]

I believe you gotta think of Symbols as more for supercharging SecTech.

While it’s good to squeeze every second of it, if you’re about to use SecTech in CDs try to supercharge it.

[autumn sierra]

Bless you

[runic kraken]

So tldr you can delay it until you have to SecTech within 2 finishers after.

[umbral topaz]

Ye sub is a weird mishmash of random CD timers 😂

[compact cobalt]

Sub just feels like melee fire mage

[echo herald]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[brave harbor]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[zealous flint]

Are you guys sending your prism for each CD set or letting it build to max?

[jade urchin]

if there is a damage or big pull coming you delay, if its fractillus or smth u can send on cd it doesnt matter

[zealous flint]

yeah thats fair

[steel zinc]

Depends if you have ritual forge

If you have ritual forge you use that for first set of cds 2nd prism 3rd ritual and last with prism and more stacks

[haughty mural]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[haughty mural]

Oh forge isn’t added

[woeful wedge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[wet idol]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[glad rampart]

whats the reason for my lilly trinket does not line up with blades?

de-sync sometimes

[open vortex]

Are you doing keys below 12?

[glad rampart]

17's

[zealous flint]

i have antenna

[open vortex]

Shouldn’t be then

[glad rampart]

why

whats the diff

on 12

[open vortex]

If it was below 12 I would say maybe if it was cdr affix this week it could desync

[glad rampart]

ohh

true

[open vortex]

But idk if it was just throwing it out there

[glad rampart]

i was doing alt keys

[zealous flint]

what are you guys simming at ?

[glad rampart]

ty @open vortex

[void needle]

st, dslice, pure aoe?

[zealous flint]

ST

[void needle]

My st patchwerk with all raid buffs is 4.3m

[zealous flint]

Yeah ineteresting

[void needle]

I am fucked on trinkets though

So if anything it's low

[zealous flint]

Im only curious because, my SIN set ST is 4.8mil, my sub set is 4.3mil with bis trinkets

so not sure if its not simming the trinkets or something

I guess sub also wins out on damage amp phases etc

[void needle]

Sin just performs better pure singletarget

[zealous flint]

Yeah true

good point, sub will overtake in damage amps and big add burn

i guess

[weak magnet]

In AoE when we can gurrantue max CP with one Shurikenstorm. Could we not also Shuriken storm in between Coups to preserve the Unseen Blade Stacks or am I missing something?

[alpine raft]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[jade urchin]

i assume its not worth to shurikenstorm over shadowstrike even with lost unseen blade proc outside of cds

but im not sure there

even if its probably in the 0.x% dps diffs

[upbeat sorrel]

sub kinda fun in m+

[weak magnet]

Sub >>> Assa (Fun lvl)

[upbeat sorrel]

i cant use the forced to play sub rogue gif anymore

its actually quite fun now

[foggy sphinx]

you got prism?

[radiant patio]

if your cds dont desync yea

i hope they do something to assa in midnight because it's giga boring

[void needle]

That's the point

They had to dumb down one of the specs to make the game more accessible. Sub is next

[upbeat sorrel]

maybe they'll do that to outlaw

[void needle]

They already did

Have you played it this tier?

It is far slower

[upbeat sorrel]

havent played it since season 1 and i got carpal tunnel

[hollow spear]

It's dps neutral afaik, you gain a ub use but lose a nimbled shadowstrike

[manic island]

add giga CDR to sub and it'll be fun af

[hollow spear]

We don't need giga cdr

[void needle]

They did, and it is

[upbeat sorrel]

is it no longer insane apm

[zenith hollow]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[violet barn]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[upbeat sorrel]

uhhhh

appears you can fall through the world in karesh

[split garden]

been practicing the opener for a couple hrs and feel really good about, one thing im noticing tho is my coup procs dont line up right aftert sectec like ive seen in my graphics and guides, is that normal bc i dont have the tier set or am i doing something wrong

[dusk stone]

tier set is very important yes

[vale pine]

I answered you in #tc-research, but yes correct.

[vale pine]

coup procs are not guaranteed at a certain point in the sequence

so you don't always get the exact sequence a guide will show

[weak magnet]

thanks fuu, thought so

[frank linden]

macro

[vale pine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[frail path]

Is there any dungeon from the current pool where sub plays a bit worse than assassination?

[weak magnet]

I think its personal prefernce atm

[vale pine]

sub felt good in all dungeons

[crisp pond]

personally streets but sub is fine everywhere

[vale pine]

so i would say, no

but "playing good" is a very subjective

[weak magnet]

uh, I found Sub better in streets 100 times 😄

[frail path]

Alright, thanks!

[mortal trail]

Guys, with Luxthos WA do ur flawless form got tracked? Mine is not showing up and idk if its only mine or happen to more ppl too

[crisp pond]

yeah but my group i do better on sin than sub in streets :x

like around 400k more overall in general

[tepid trellis]

its still 80+ same as forever

[vale pine]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[turbid edge]

I thought everyone recommends swapping to sub for streets

[round latch]

i recommend swapping to sub in general

[turbid edge]

Yeah I'm in process of learning it

[tight monolith]

I mean breaking the shield on the oasis boss as assa in m+ build holy

[vale pine]

APM:
Outlaw: 83
Subtlety: 67
Assassination: 49

[round latch]

actual reason ppl leavingthe pirate is low APM

[vale pine]

i don't know

think the highest it ever was was ~90

but it was always in the high 70-90 range

[round latch]

no it was higher

[vale pine]

don't think so

[empty plume]

you have to include the spam jumping and strafing

[round latch]

pretty sure it had 90-ish,same as prot pally

ill check on that though

[vale pine]

it never went to 100

[round latch]

dont wanna talk out of my @ss

[tepid trellis]

it has been hovering 80

[vale pine]

90 is already extremely high

and most of the time it was more towards 80

[tepid trellis]

since end of SL

[round latch]

1.5 actions per second

[round latch]

just accept that i was right about sub

its the best

[turbid edge]

Is sub a high apm spec across all WoW specs?

[tepid trellis]

iirc highest it has been was 90 smth back with shadowdust Kyrian

[round latch]

dont think so no

think prot paladin and outlaw has been the highest

[wild hornet]

wasnt feral up there at some point

[tepid trellis]

for what content? m+ no. raid its middle of the pack, but very good on last two

[crisp pond]

yea assa is pain in keys but doable. but i think im just more comfortable on sin in that due to playin in SL and depends on route ig

[vale pine]

keep in mind tanks often don't play super high apm because they actually need to tank too

not just spam damage spells

[turbid edge]

Can I symbols into dance into backstab? Or is it much better to dance into symbols into backstab? Just easier to press the dance macro twice that has backstab in it

[vale pine]

subtlety is especially on the pure single target fights bad

[round latch]

for every content

[vale pine]

especially the last boss was unclear of how much pure single target mattered before release

[round latch]

pve to pvp

sub jsut better

[tepid trellis]

well its not

so

sub does absolutely dogshit single target

[vale pine]

^

[round latch]

well sin does worse

and outlaw

[turbid edge]

In raid or in m+?

[tepid trellis]

no

[round latch]

is crap

[tepid trellis]

it does not

[empty plume]

last boss just had perfectly spaced downtime windows to allow for 1:30s burst spec to be strong

[tepid trellis]

stop talking

out of your ass

[turbid edge]

Sin is higher ST in raid

[vale pine]

rogue is not the best st

[tepid trellis]

full single target

all 3 are kinda shit

but sub

is the lowest

[vestal escarp]

Aoe class pog?

[vale pine]

fractilus shows how bad sub is at something thats designed around a more classical single target niche

and even tho this might be a hot take

[round latch]

not even last,i call that W

[vale pine]

we had entire tiers where fights ended up glorified patchwerk

[tepid trellis]

but sub is very very good on last two bosses

[round latch]

(yes im trolling)

[tepid trellis]

cuz its designed for 90sec burst

[wild hornet]

after what blizz did to mages itll be hard to top that one

[tepid trellis]

and in m+ Assa does more dmg than sub aswell outside of a few dungeons

[vale pine]

also prism is rly good with our burst

[tepid trellis]

those dungeons being DB and streets

[turbid edge]

I thought sub was way more than sin, or u mean pure ST?