subtlety

[distant mist]

can i use symbol Whenever it's available ?

[short radish]

no you cannot

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

#subtlety message

[dusk stone]

when he gets on the dragon thats an amp phase right

[distant mist]

oh ok

[hazy breach]

No

The damage amp is when the dragon is in the middle shooting claws

and the guy is standing far away taking no damage

[dusk stone]

is the boss immune while hes riding dragon?

[lucid jackal]

I think its only standout on the last 2 tbqh

[dusk stone]

there's 2 hp bars

[hazy breach]

No

[lucid jackal]

and I think it's not that good on dimensius tbqh

Or like, exceptionally good

[short radish]

throwing hands
shooting claws

[lucid jackal]

Its just kinda absurd on dalhadaar

[short radish]

yeah because you cant stack p risms when flying

so feels a bit more whatever right?

[lucid jackal]

Ik the method guys said beacuse u miss more orbs than average but idk

Feels cope to me but what do I know

[hazy breach]

Santa claus

[short radish]

[fading kayak]

I think based on my stats Vers Rubies are simming slightly higher than Onyx's should I replace or does the secondary damage of Ele Focusing not matter that much?

[short radish]

embelishments are a rounding error

[obtuse dirge]

if you have enough combo points from shadow techniques is the suriken storm needed

[short radish]

dont give anymore thought into them

[hazy breach]

You would not use a combo point builder if you are at full combo points no

[obtuse dirge]

acknowledged ty

[fading kayak]

Roger thanks

[little epoch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tiny sierra]

on add situations like forgemaster or dimmy p2 should I send a shuriken storm before my cds? for spreading find weakness

or not worth it

[crystal atlas]

Can only maintain 2.52m on a dummy, but opener doesnt seem to bad as long as I have 1 dance and a SOD when going into it

[tender frost]

soul hunters didn't feel as awful as i thought it would

[dusk stone]

you want to have 1.5 dances per flag window, you get the second dance from CDR

[crystal atlas]

this the kinda break down i am looking for?

[hoary shore]

when The First Dance is up, our shadowblade fade during our second dance right ? Is there something to minmax from this ?

[dusk stone]

flag lasts for 24 seconds which is the primary amp, shadow blades just gives max CP for 16 seconds and 20% amp

[hazy breach]

Not really no, just dance immediately after your first ends

[short radish]

sure

[hoary shore]

ok i think i'm starting to see things more clearly

[burnt panther]

I have a question to see if I'm right: How many Eviserar or BP are done in an SD window? Not counting the fact that it processes your full combo points.

[hazy breach]

Depends on your procs and stuff, its not really something you should be thinking about

If you have 6 or more combo points press a finisher

(the overall amount of globals you press in dance should be 8 though)

[burnt panther]

That's what I wanted to know then 4 SS and 4 bp

[hazy breach]

Ye except thats not true

Because sectech, coup and shadowcraft refunds

[burnt panther]

Yes, I say it if you don't have any refund.

[hazy breach]

Ok but why wouldnt you count the refunds

[burnt panther]

I wanted to know if I have a problem because I feel like I'm doing very few globals, maybe lag or something like that, but I'll try it on another key to see how it goes.

[hoary shore]

the hardest part is to know when i have to dance out of my big cds i rly struggle on it, making me do things with nonsense

[burnt panther]

Does the coup de grace lower SD's CD even further? Is that how it works in Outlaw?

[hazy breach]

Yes, the +5 cps count for cooldown reduction

[burnt panther]

done thanks eleem 🙂

[dusk stone]

dont use dances 30s from flag cd in raid 25 in keys

maybe 20 in keys

yeah on the dummy at 29s mark i have 1 SD charge and you just hold from there until flag

you technically dont dance again at the 45s mark but you only COULD send at 29

[hoary shore]

and it will align naturally with the two symbols needed during the burst window ?

[dusk stone]

symbols cd is static afaik

but yes you arent sending dance without symbols

sometimes you send symbols + sectec for more dance CD when they are significantly desync'd

[hoary shore]

lets be comfy with simple things first all lol

thanks a lot

[lilac stag]

1.5 dance + 1.4 sod for flag

If I’m reading the above correctly.

[steep glacier]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[dusk stone]

Thanks wasnt sure of that 1 myself

[crisp lion]

anyone have a prepull symbols reminder?

<- dumb always forget

[lilac stag]

just undumb

[crisp lion]

god i wish

[lilac stag]

[dusk stone]

Aside from looking at every nameplate on every mob how do i not die in 13/14 fg

Its not ground thats getting me, dynamite and windup

[lucid jackal]

The mobs only get 1 windups usually so U can just evasion that pack as the mechanic is about to go off

[quiet smelt]

bad with macros if i wanted to macro trinket #2 to blades what would it look like

[dusk stone]

The dynamite was lethal too

[crisp lion]

/cast sb

/use 14

[mental dune]

do we have a value on the ppm for netherprism stacks?

[winter ice]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[quiet smelt]

ty

[steep glacier]

does cb only affect the first hit of sectec?

[icy mulch]

wym it procs every 10s

[mental dune]

oh it says "may occur every 10 seconds" so it didnt just happen every time

[frail kindle]

gz

[lucid jackal]

Another noob down

118 wipes

Ez boss

[crisp lion]

gl on dimmi

[bleak night]

what a gamer

[short radish]

got the belt as well

noice

[hazy breach]

It happens exactly every 10s

No randomness

[lucid jackal]

Cool fight

[eager torrent]

https://tenor.com/view/a7-gif-15871773753736245020

rolling into last two bosses of raid as sub rogue

[lucid jackal]

Literally

Me getting put inside everybody elses backpack on fractillus

I'm just here for the free ride

[round latch]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[warm marlin]

soul hunters with much easier timings

its tech

[red ferry]

Weird question but does anyone know casual addicts video settings to show aoe on ground being so defined. I keep getting clipped by the smallest things because I can’t quite see the outline on abilities on the ground. Any tips or tricks help a ton

[cedar willow]

While there are a few sharpness things you can do (i believe quazii has a great performance/clarity optimization video), you may be finding it more clear on someone ‘s video as your brain doesnt have to so your rotation while interrupting while pressing defensives while selecting the correct target while standing in the right spot

[coral hamlet]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[atomic girder]

do u secret tech the adds on araz after they get knocked thru puddle

[flint sundial]

!atro

[wicked jolt]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[crisp lion]

i figured out how to undumb

/cast Recuperate
/cast Symbols of Death

[coral hamlet]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[fiery rampart]

we blast

[dusk stone]

what key

[fiery rampart]

12 flood

did we time it

no

did we abandon

yes

LMAO

[twilit phoenix]

I kneel

[lethal yew]

Can someone look at a sub log, tell me what i can improve?

[lusty root]

damn noone playing sub on M Loom rank 50 is a blue xD

[dense geode]

should rogue get blessing of autumn on m saladbar?

or does it not matter

[frail kindle]

shouldnt matter

[warm marlin]

its pretty good at letting you get better uses out of your cds by having them immediately be up

supposedly it lets 2min classes send on platform and on damage amp though

which is prob better

[fluid parcel]

quick question how come my cold blood and secret tech macro doesnt work anymore, it'll cast secret without cold now

[haughty saddle]

does showdowmeld give subterfuge?

[obtuse orbit]

trying to learn sub but im having issues getting it down. is anyone able to break down or simplify the CD usage with dance/symbols/sectec. i get the hold cb for second tec but im just not grasping the actual timing/useage of the cds

[lilac stag]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lilac stag]

Otherwise read the guides and see which you understand best. They all have mostly the same info just presented a bit different.

[obtuse orbit]

yea i found the method one, and the picture there def helps. my issue was just burning them way too quick

[jolly snow]

anyone can share a m+ profile damage for i have a idea

[marble mauve]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[mellow arrow]

Noob question for sub: Do you Coup with 5+ combo points or at 7 only?

[frail kindle]

6+

[dusk stone]

it depends

[marble mauve]

Is the usage of cold blood right after Sstrike before Sectech all that important? or can you time it closer to right before the sectech with a macro

[proper stone]

ideally how many stacks do we want netherprism to have before poppnig?

[dusk stone]

you have 5 seconds on coup proc and if you dont send the 2nd one by then you lose it

you try and get maximum CP for coup, but if its 2, it's 2

[mellow arrow]

Ok so for 4pc buff send it before the buff is lost but the other coups, 6+?

Other coups being the ones we build up from unseen blade

[warm marlin]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[quiet smelt]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

finisher with 6+ cp yeah

[mellow arrow]

bless, thanks

[dusk stone]

just to add, all coups are procs not some

[winged widget]

soul hunters is council or cleave spec?

[dusk stone]

i ran TR build with tea

but the normal raid one i fine too ig

[coral hamlet]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[icy mulch]

@lucid jackal elusiveness on saldahar?

[lucid jackal]

CD for P3/bad claw overlaps leading to P3

[icy mulch]

[lucid jackal]

Elus is probs better tho

[mellow arrow]

ok maybe Im misunderstanding - the usual coup we get from just building to 4 stacks of escalating blade, does this have a duration to it or just next evisc? I know tier set coup has the buff timer, but questioning the baseline one now lol

[icy mulch]

no timer on the first one

[mellow arrow]

ok that's what I thought, thanks

[marble mauve]

Is there a macro to prevent spamming symbols?

[short radish]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[marble mauve]

ah there it is!

[warm marlin]

seems to help a lot in p1 at least for now

the banishment dot hurts

[twin quartz]

98 parsed Soulbinder, then realized i had the cold blood bug

coulda been so much better

[slender beacon]

black powder only with 5+ mobs?

[icy mulch]

3 if they all have find weakness on them, otherwise 4+

[thorn yacht]

how are you guys liking subtlety this tier so far?

[icy mulch]

[lucid jackal]

fun and strong

[thorn yacht]

i last played it in aberrus but thinking of trying it out again

[quiet smelt]

can someone explain how shadow technique works.. it stacks up when you use builders?

[icy mulch]

procs off autos

consumes when you use builders

unless you have symbols rolling

err

still with symbols

it just stacks faster

[twilit phoenix]

however many ST "combo points" you have banked will be added to your next builder

so you if you have giga stacks, your BS can give max cp even without premed

good to track them so you know what to expect

[icy mulch]

when you're in your cds, you wont consume the stacks since you're always filling your cp with your builder

so instead you consume them whenever you cast a finisher and you also have enough stacks to fill your cp bar after

its not just in cds but it happens most then

but if you have 7 stacks and you use an eviscerate and you have symbols rolling

it'll fill your cp again from firing that eviscerate

[bleak night]

shadow techniques is kind of overly complicated to explain for what basically amounts you "autoing gives more combo points" huh

[icy mulch]

ya it is

shadowcraft made it messy

[bleak night]

at least it doesnt literally give combo points anymore

because that was annoying

[icy mulch]

sniping your echoing reprimand point with your autos

[quiet smelt]

so for example if my flag is coming up and im full combo points and i wanna stack it for flag.. would i just auto and thats it or use builders @ full cp ?

[short radish]

is the randomness actually true or is it the ol 50% on the 3rd strike

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[bleak night]

ye that

[icy mulch]

its the ole 50%

[quiet smelt]

it just states to stop using finishers.. does that mean builders are ok or should i just be autoing

[short radish]

builders are fine

and can/should be used as a very minor min max

because you can proc more unseen blades

[quiet smelt]

i see

[short radish]

i just afk though

and stretch my hands and wrists

[bleak night]

yeah either way you're "storing" the combo points

[short radish]

you gotta look after yourself homie

no one else will

[bleak night]

its just either stored as literal points or as shadow techniques

[bleak night]

real

take a nice lil break before cds

[short radish]

exactly

especially if you already have a coup stored up

whats the difference between casting 2 more backstabs

[quiet smelt]

im coming from outlaw so my hands and wrists are already chalked

[short radish]

see!

you gotta rest them up

[plush roost]

3 weeks of normal and heroic splits for fractillus.... mythic kills.... and this is what drops on our most recent mythic kill....

THEYRE WARBOUND

Im cursed gg

[short radish]

they didnt give it to you?

[plush roost]

THEYRE WARBOUND

[short radish]

well

at least thats heroic warbound

which means

your enext in line for mythic

[plush roost]

Ive been in line for 3 weeks LOL

[short radish]

[spring elm]

how do you get your crafted bracers to have a socket

[plush roost]

Get a socket from vault

[kind marten]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[random comet]

0/6 prisms even seen over 3 weeeks of normal and heroic

for me too

surely the only item that hasn't dropped in raid yet

[kind marten]

maybe in the next life brother

[thorn yacht]

what's the best way to manage double on-use with lily and netherprism?

[short radish]

get a pacemaker instead

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[short radish]

or just macro them both into sblade

[vagrant thorn]

I have them macrod together and also a separate symbols button :p

I'm not worried about wasting rotten on BS or not having supercharger on the last secret tech (can just send another symbols separately if needed ;o)

I feel like my dps benefits more from decluttering 100 different keypresses 😛 otherwise it's like those dial up modem sounds in my brain and I just freeze and then press something wrong :S

[coral hamlet]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah burst windows sure have a lot of buttons lol

[dusk stone]

uhm

is shadow strike suppose to get you murdered at dimensius?

i strike, then got knocked into the boss

[acoustic matrix]

did you vanish before ?

[dusk stone]

no

[acoustic matrix]

I think if you're close enough you don't do the dash

Maybe you were too far

[dusk stone]

it was right at the start

literally striked the boss and then got pulled in

[exotic meadow]

Ive seen some ppl playing netherprism + runeforge is it any worth? Dont know what to run for as 2nd trinket right now i have hc netherprism
In theory yea antenna but so many ppl playing 2 on use

[neon frigate]

Maybe a very very stupid question but in streets of wonder where you can lose your weapon, is there an addon to find it? I lost multiple burst because of it

[dusk stone]

2 on use is for last 2 bosses

thats about it

[acoustic matrix]

you must have been stealthed somehow

Do you play subterfuge ?

Cause taking the portal should remove stealth i think

[dreamy oasis]

How do you recommend I sim AOE? I know it changes from class to class if dungeon slice is recommended or not so what is recommended for rogue?

[acoustic matrix]

fuu said it's optimized for dungeon slice

[dreamy oasis]

Okay. Ty.

[acoustic matrix]

Although 5 bosses should work fine as well

[exotic meadow]

But why?🤔

[quaint lodge]

i dont believe so, but also you do'nt need to track the lost weapon, you should be just holding the dance as the boss ab ility is coming up and then use shadow dance afterwards

you can also cloak to get ur weapon back

[short radish]

it does't, at least if you're shrouded

[acoustic matrix]

Oh then that must be what happened @dusk stone

[acoustic matrix]

Not stupid at all lol, sometimes it's in an AOE and the effect is so hard to see. Have legit spent 10+ sec looking for it before 😂

[vagrant thorn]

you can cloak that??!?! dammnnnnn 😛 lol

what a cheating class rogue is haha

[acoustic matrix]

Better save cloak for the fixate though

unless you REALLY can't find it xD

• I doubt you get the haste buff if you cloak it

[vagrant thorn]

you use cloak on fixate before you get imprisoned?

[acoustic matrix]

ye

[vagrant thorn]

and hes not gonna pick someone else?

[acoustic matrix]

nope

[neon frigate]

@acoustic matrix i know about the cloak indeed. But i also want to save cloak for imprisonment. And here too i have been searching 10+ secs between aoe

🤣

[lusty root]

If i have both lilly and netherprism, should i use lilly on pull and let netherprism stack and then use it with my next blades?

[young roost]

instead of dungeon slice what are you guys using?

saw something about 10 targets at 1:30

[lusty root]

why dont you want to use dungeon slice?

no

dont do that

[rigid pasture]

on heroic its like 2 bursts with lily and 1 with prism

[young roost]

saw someone saying it can be unreliable so they advised using 8-10 targets at it was either 1:30 or 2 minutes I cant recall exaclty

was supposed to be more accurate according to what they were saying

[lusty root]

so would macro'ing lilly to blades and then just ensuring i hit prism right before blades for the 3rd blades so that the macro doesnt use lilly be ok, you think?

[short radish]

not for rogues

[hexed sluice]

Prism is funny

[exotic meadow]

Whats the best use on prism in raid?

[lusty root]

lmao, im assuming you just let it stack until the dmg amp?

[hexed sluice]

this was soulbinder, I was on weird timers but yeah, I use lily while its stacking

[vagrant thorn]

in typical m+ how many minutes does it take to stack from 0 to 18 usually?

[hexed sluice]

We were struggling with adds, so I was just stacking it for the final set to just make it easiest for team

[rigid pasture]

idk i press them manually

i use lily prism as well

[hexed sluice]

I just have Blades Lily Prism on 5 6 7

[vagrant thorn]

about 3 minutes apparently ;o

[lusty root]

makes sense, were progging Forge now so just trying to optimize a bit more for it

[hexed sluice]

yeah we did a few pulls on heroic araz before ending since Loomy was our prog start tonight, soulbinder just died quick in like 3

We def died to the convergencelike 4 times

[exotic meadow]

So do i aim for runeforge or antenna as 2nd?

[chrome palm]

Average fracture soak experience

[lucid jackal]

[turbid edge]

how does the infinite trix work? i still have to press it before every pull or what?

[icy mulch]

More than 1 havoc and it’s gg not your job

Not gonna fight them dashing around

[chrome palm]

I love soaking the fracture and getting 3 stacks from the big

[lucid jackal]

Nop

[stoic sphinx]

Tricks the target, hit an enemy once. Then you both keep it for 60m or whatever the duration is. Only need to refresh once an hour

[old scaffold]

!log

[turbid edge]

oh so once i hit the first enemy, every enemy in dungeon will redirect aggro without me pressing it again (for 60 min)?

[wild vine]

Just whatever you can get your hands on really

[spiral knot]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[rugged notch]

Question: Is there a reason I'm missing for why the breakpoint for Black Powder usage changes according to this guide inside versus outside of dance? Like am I missing something like a modifier that is causing evis to gain more from dance than black powder that makes the target requirement higher in dance versus out or? Srry if it's a stupid question, lol.

[devout quarry]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wild vine]

Its Coup?

Its not just evis

Or you mean the slight 3 vs 4 targets?

[rugged notch]

Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Like the normal evis's vs BP and BP needing 4 targets to be worth it compared to a normal evis in dance vs 3 out. I get Coups are gonna be higher prio.

I was just under the impression both spells gain the same amount from dance bc it's a flat dmg increase.

[frail kindle]

nexus king has hands

[rugged notch]

So I assume I was missing sometihng

[lucid jackal]

Only 118 pulls

[frail kindle]

goats

i feel like once you get p1 down pat boss prolly just falls over

[viral oar]

May I ask for someone's opinion regarding raid rotation? I think I'm doing something wrong but I really am unable to pinpoint it. In fact I felt like I've done a better than average job with my cooldown management this plexus pull, but my dps was in the gutter. If I send a log, would anyone care to take a quick glance?

!log

[devout quarry]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[wild vine]

Actually a good question. Stealthis guide has both at 4

[rugged notch]

Gotcha. Yeah, was driving me crazy lol. I saw two other guides say flat 4, but I was just curious. I was like, what am I missing here? Well thanks for the reply!

[wild vine]

Either way you are fine tbf

The difference between evis and bp right around the target counts where you might use the other arent really that impactful

And up to a certain point its also prio vs aoe

[rugged notch]

Yeah, for sure. I was just more so curious to the reasoning, if there was one. Yeah, most of the time at that breakpoint the prio dmg is gonna be worth more than the like few % more overall.

[wild vine]

@vale pine sorry for tagging, maybe you got some other info or anything regarding the difference in guides even if negligible

[spring elm]

Is unbreakable stride good in any dungeons. Like does it lower the duration of any dots that slow

[coral hamlet]

is the cold blood and Secret Technique can macro ?

[chrome fern]

if you aren't sold on playing sub, go to salhadaar

[cursive vapor]

no

[coral hamlet]

ahh oke

[dry belfry]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[olive shoal]

as sub is it better to play weaponmaster or something over first dance if ur pug tank only lets u restealth a few times in the entire key

[alpine wraith]

no always tfd

wm is very bad

[bleak night]

tfd giga

also you can do stuff like vanish at the end of a pull and wait for tfd if you really want

instead of backstabbing the 10% hp mob hes pulling into the next pack

[viral oar]

This is

Damn

[short radish]

gotta be sure to ru n away though

and even LoS

just in case you get dragged back into combat

[bleak night]

yeah if something casts on you or something its gg

so back up for sure

[tame agate]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[tame agate]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[cold trellis]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[cold trellis]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[cold trellis]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[upbeat sorrel]

if you upgrade a season 2 crafted item with a socket in it to a season 3 gilded/runed does it keep the socket

[short radish]

[upbeat sorrel]

gotcha makes sense

[short radish]

except for rings/necks i think

those sockets stay

[tribal blade]

ok i'm starting to int the rotation less in keys now

it's been like riding a rusty bike, but i'm getting back there

16 DB

[short radish]

wew

[acoustic matrix]

You can macro cold blood to secret technique and have secret technique on another keybind without losing dps

[tribal blade]

the tank just told me i almost did as much dmg in that one as casual did

[queen kraken]

Nice, good Job 💪🏼
I still struggle, had some horrible experience on ara especially the first pull 😅idk if lowhp still dies too quickly on 14 but Hunter and feral ate me on that

[signal steeple]

Im so lost, I think i dont understand the gameplay

[dry plank]

Dw it is common issue. Just move forward step by step

[tribal blade]

just tried a 16 ara earlier and had the fury warr die 4 times in a row in the last area

[short radish]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tribal blade]

1 time to ripping aggro during a gather and then 3 times on boss

[olive shoal]

would u guys play weaponmaster over first dance if pug tanks dont let u restealth most of the key

[tribal blade]

nah

[short radish]

no

[tribal blade]

WM is already pretty sus in pure ST

and on aoe it's almost completely useless for the most part

you only really need a few TFD procs to make TFD way better

over a whole key

[dry plank]

Just ask tank to give you restealth before boss

[signal steeple]

Ok guys im dominating the opner (ST and AOE) but i have a doubt. Should I waste all my Shadow Dance charges?
After the big damage window with 2 shadow dance, what is the filler?

[fallow nimbus]

Backstab

[short radish]

backstab soup

[signal steeple]

Backstab Eviscerate until have another 2 charges of Shadow Dance and Symbols?

When should I try to open another window damage?

With ALL cds or simply Shadow dance and Symbols with technique , and after that small window open with all again? WHen you can use Vanish?

[fallow nimbus]

You dance+symbols with secret technique but just the right amount to have 2 dances and 2 sods for your next 1.5min cd window

It can be 2 between cds or just 1 if you lose uptime

Rule of thumb is like opener 2 cds 1 cds 2 and so on

[tribal blade]

if you want a very simple rule you can just stop sending everything ~30 secs before you cds come back up

[signal steeple]

OK, thanks a lot for your replies

Was so helpful

Im gonna try

[fallen depot]

!log

[chrome fern]

can someone point out if i'm doing something blatantly cringe here? (i know there is no CB, was bugged)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xGKfNwAdbJrP7nLH?fight=35&type=casts&source=7&view=timeline

should i maybe hold the 3rd dance (first one after cds) until coup is ready?

[exotic meadow]

You have a lot of haste 👀

[chrome fern]

yeah haven't minmaxxed gear yet, just been going for ilvl

[cunning notch]

!belt

what belt thing do we use

crit chain ?

[sullen hare]

Crit

[cunning notch]

the vers thing didnt seem so bad tbh

[viral oar]

How many seconds before flag/sb comes up do you stop using shadow dance/sectec in raid?

[chrome fern]

stealthi told me 20-30

and that 30 is pushing it, for sec tec

i'd say more like 45 for dance

but depends on where you are with regard to charges

[winter ice]

Is this why my sectech and dance desync ?

[viral oar]

Yeah i find 40-45 good enough to have everyhting up to send 2 dances too

[tribal blade]

they'll always be dsynced because they cdr at different rates

[viral oar]

Assuming you were to use dance/sectec on cd outside of cds, that is

[cunning notch]

send everything on cd

[tribal blade]

sectec cdrs much more than dance per CP spent

[winter ice]

So that’s when naked techs come in to spend symbols

[tribal blade]

yeah you can do that

i've tried to avoid doing that recently because i'm not such a big fan of naked symbol uses

[chrome fern]

some times you get more cdr and you'll get close to overcapping a dance charge, so you can send one and it'll be back in cd's

[tribal blade]

but it's obv better than capping on symbols charges

[winter ice]

yeah the global or 2 to spend getting sec off cd later is better than sitting on a symbol

[blissful yacht]

Postpone Coup to always ve with Fazed debuff?

[turbid edge]

can i swap replicating shadows for a diff build that's better for lower keys like 10-12? i feel like nothing lives long enough to waste gcds on ruptures

oh i just realized that.... we don't really aoe unless we have flawless form huh? so do i have to try and save a coup at the end of pull for start of next? or how do i ensure my opener on a new pack is aoe'ed

[uncut bloom]

You BP at 4 targets and above. It's more so you just dont have damage outside of dance/symbols

[final pawn]

hey guys im startin to learn sub, is it a right statement that i want to spread my ruptures before going into the cds and blasting ?

[tribal blade]

you can let flawless drop in aoe and just press BP

storm>BP

(outside dance)

[coral hamlet]

any log that i can learn ?

[final pawn]

yeah a log to look at and learn would be awesome 🙂

[feral barn]

Depends on your dance cd, if both of your dances are up, you just rupture your target and then dance

If 1 dance just came back from Cd you can take the time to spread some ruptures (if targets are healthy)

[queen kraken]

Id love grahams ara log 🤭

[leaden prairie]

wasnt there a way to get rep shadow in st with a neutral build

or am i cooked

[tribal blade]

this shammy chose the best time to use forge

[tribal blade]

i think people are taking off PE to nab it

[cunning notch]

can i get some 'general rules' for M+

[sage saffron]

How to send sectec when I need to hold dance? should I always try to send it with a symbols at least or is it also ok to just send it „naked“ or would being in that situation be a misplay and I shouldn’t even get there?

[tribal blade]

@leaden prairie

[leaden prairie]

oh

cause you also move imrpoved shadow tech

i see

[tribal blade]

oh yeah true

i didn't notice that too

[leaden prairie]

let me check

cause just moving pe was a 3% loss

ye this one is 0.7

hmge

im just wondering for nexus king

since rupture spread would ahve slight value

but maybe not 0.7% value

oh well

[tribal blade]

it's maybe not a huge deal to just tab target rupture on it

[leaden prairie]

i meant for the add phase aswell

but -.7 aint worth

[tribal blade]

there's only 1 parse on it and he's just running regular build

yeah i don't think so

[leaden prairie]

he also did 0 damage for some reason

sub is blasting tho on that boss

so idk

im blasting at least

[tribal blade]

oh true haha

[cunning notch]

!talents

[maiden oar]

you can steal ppls talents off raiderio even if they private log

idk how it works but it does

[leaden prairie]

rio app

[feral barn]

Always send with Symbols dance, id you all your CDs are coming, wait, you need to start your CD with an early ST

[chrome fern]

i don't know about timings on mythic, but on heroic you are waiting on cd's anyway so you have time to tab target ruptures

[maiden oar]

oh ok but yeah u can rob a rwf guy

and win big

[cunning notch]

The wowhead guide build for M+ is out of date ?

i see people running the rotten ?

[tribal blade]

it's preference

all the high key pushers are running rotten atm

[feral barn]

BP in 4+ target, don't spam shuriken storm during Dance, you want to Shadow Strike, always align SecTec with your cds

[cunning notch]

ight thanks big G

[cunning notch]

why ? if i may ask

[tribal blade]

you can force find weakness onto all targets during dances

which means big burst

and high keys for sub revolve around doing big burst in cds

[cloud rover]

A Guild Monk used his Forge, when he got casted by the Lightspawns in Priory

Guess what happened next

[feral barn]

Ez crit on 1 shuriken storm during dance, so you don't have to use it anymore during your dance

[tribal blade]

smile

[cunning notch]

ight thats understandeable

number bigger

better

[tribal blade]

bigger BP number better yeah

since BP hits hard

[keen dome]

BP stands for Big Power

[feral barn]

Just be carefull, you have find the weakness and Secret Blade onto targets and numbers will naturally go high

[cunning notch]

Big Penits

[keen dome]

Alternatively throw British Petrolium at them.

[cunning notch]

Big Pharma hits really hard these days huh

[chrome palm]

y-you guys havent?

[cunning notch]

[chrome fern]

https://tenor.com/view/critical-role-crit-role-cr-arsequeef-matthew-mercer-gif-14842251

BP?

[keen dome]

get over here salhadaar i'm throwing an oil rig at you

[cunning notch]

i did bad numbers here in DawnBricker

i think my mistakes were

• using Evic on aoe to destroy prio target
• not holding Coup de grace all the time for Dance
• spamming Suriken storm

[turbid edge]

and then in dance u shadowstrike into bp for 3+?

[feral barn]

Unseen blade seem low, so yeah, not enough SS in Dance i guess, with a lot of prio target un Dawn it doesn't feel odd to have BP lower

[dusk stone]

damage breakdowns aren't really helpful, what is the overall

[chrome palm]

eviscerate above both coup de grace and secret technique is odd

[cunning notch]

sec i'll upload the log

[tepid trellis]

with 4set coup should be a decent bit higher than evis

but i does add up if he isnt using strike in dances on AoE

[golden kelp]

rupture seem a bit low too

[chrome palm]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/T6hBjaNYb4WyZgFM?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=118
this is a 15 db i did a little while ago

[cunning notch]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6PRbdHWJ8akzF4KD?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=4

12 Dawnbring

[final pawn]

is there a rule of thumb for spreading my ruptures, like in what scenario is it the approach

in context of going in a new mob grp with all my cds rdy

[tepid trellis]

replicating specced

then its to everything that lives a fair amount of time

[analog dove]

do we want no haste at all?

[tepid trellis]

and you just spread them between dances

[tepid trellis]

not really

[dusk stone]

what key level is that dawn for

[final pawn]

but ill apply it befoire i go into my cds

right?

[turbid edge]

he said 15

[tepid trellis]

dont delay cds for it

once the mobs are gathered your 100% prio sending cds

[turbid edge]

or u mean the op's? iunno

[final pawn]

ah i see so rupture spread really low on prio list

[leaden prairie]

stealthi..

[analog dove]

should i recraft a crit/mast ring to vers mast?

[coral hamlet]

is shuriken on aoe is bad? to build cp

[analog dove]

or how can i sim the difference

[tepid trellis]

during dances yes

[coral hamlet]

i mean always shuriken instead of backstab

[tepid trellis]

nah thats fine on 3 or more targets

[tepid trellis]

what?

[dusk stone]

4mil in db is not right at +15

[cunning notch]

ok i see u sent more SecTecs

[dusk stone]

my 12 was almost 6mil

[tepid trellis]

the +15 is from messer

[turbid edge]

nah i thought u meant the most recent screenshot, not op

[tepid trellis]

and was 7.5

op was a +12

but its kinda clear why

[turbid edge]

is sub pretty strong overall dps in lower keys (10-12)? or is it bad because timing could be bad for our cds for next pulls?

[tepid trellis]

his dmg was low in a +12

[coral hamlet]

so for 4+ target i spend on BP instead of evis?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[coral hamlet]

okok thanks

[inland cave]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[dusk stone]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[tepid trellis]

go farm lily so you have a 90sec trinket, then go study up on how you do your dance bursts, then u will see a massive increase in dmg

[cunning notch]

Ight will do ! Thanks alot friends

[final pawn]

yeah ty Stealthi for responding to my questions as well

[tepid trellis]

all ill say is, you arent meant to press shuriken storm in dance

and ehm

thats almost the only thing you are doing on AoE, loosing you infinite amount of coup procs

[dusk stone]

no idea why people use storm for aoe, strike is as much aoe is evis is

[tepid trellis]

cuz they arent aware

[cunning notch]

i used to play Sub in Shadowland and BFA where we had tornado so i assumed

[tepid trellis]

its all about that knowledge

[cunning notch]

type shit

[tepid trellis]

ong

[cunning notch]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-lizard-on-god-sheesh-gif-25158053

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/bornskywalker-dap-me-up-woody-woody-handshake-woody-toy-story-gif-26021440

[golden kelp]

sub was fun in shadowlands

the cdr was crazy

[dusk stone]

i want to experience the shadowdust meta tbh

[tepid trellis]

you really dont

u think you do

but you dont

[haughty mural]

[leaden prairie]

fuck you !

[tepid trellis]

fck did i do?

fight me u lil shit

[spring elm]

sub for shadowlands and TWW is super fun and good in m+ but not as fun in raid

opposite in dflight

[upbeat sorrel]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[golden kelp]

I enjoy that both assa and sub has clear roles this expansion tbh

very much enjoying sub on council

[dusk stone]

wdym we just all collectively refused to play assa on any boss

else we shut down the discord

[spring elm]

Nimble flurry is strong and fun in aoe but kind of a flawed design choice we can never do good pure single target because of it

[golden kelp]

with the amount of guides whispyr has been spewing out I feel obligated to play it where possible xd

[dusk stone]

it needed to be a choice node between aoe and ST is all

[final pawn]

but i heard assa is currently giga bugged

[tepid trellis]

so is sub

[final pawn]

many bugs with set and wonky stuff

[tepid trellis]

so its kinda w/e

[dusk stone]

i was gonna say

[golden kelp]

nothing wrong here

[chrome fern]

@tepid trellis would you be able to take the time and look over my log for glaring rotational issues?

[dusk stone]

we are just s loose collection of bugs over here duct taped into a spec

[spring elm]

what are bugs for sub?

[leaden prairie]

does too much damage

[tepid trellis]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[spring elm]

a whole ass google doc lol

[dusk stone]

i am seriously like, first time?

[sacred yarrow]

thats why undead rogue is best

[tepid trellis]

its funny af to me when people comes from assa "im trying out sub cuz assa has so many bugs" little do they know sub is the inventor of bugs

[tepid trellis]

dm it to me and ill have a look if ive got time later today

[leaden prairie]

[leaden prairie]

my spec has cleaved dead mobs for years

outlaw is the inventor of bugs !

[spring elm]

death from above the king of bugs

[dusk stone]

its pretty funny yeah

we should introduce the sin rogues to deathstalker sub

[karmic raft]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[tepid trellis]

sub invented them before outlaw was even made

sit back

child

[olive canyon]

with the rotten is it beneficial do use first gcd after symbols to SS to spread FW

[tepid trellis]

nope

[dusk stone]

you do it after sectec

[tepid trellis]

according to sims it is not worth it to press storm inside of dance

unless its at high targets

[olive canyon]

Interesting

[tepid trellis]

and between the 2 coup casts

[haughty mural]

[dusk stone]

i mean when you are using TR then

[haughty mural]

Then what’s the point of rotten

If not to spread

[tepid trellis]

strike dmg goes brrt

[haughty mural]

Yea and that

[dusk stone]

i was asking this earlier

[haughty mural]

If surprising strikes would nimble

That would be sick

[tepid trellis]

or lethality

[haughty mural]

Ye

[dusk stone]

with non TR builds how is it not optimal to spread FW by switching from target to target with strike

[tepid trellis]

cuz it doesent actually really care about FW uptime since by nature its gonna be high when you storm outside of dances, its gonna carry into them

[dusk stone]

meh

[olive canyon]

Wouldnt the first shuriken after symbols, pre that first sec tec in dance, guarantee FW is on all mobs

[dusk stone]

i aint not pressing storm after sectec

[olive canyon]

and then lead to much bigger burst

or is the first shadowstrike in dance, after that symbols more net dmg

[tepid trellis]

in almost all cases

you have stormed before starting your burst

so ALOT of targets will ahve it

[dusk stone]

yeah but its not there for biggest part of your burst

[olive canyon]

Generally yes,but you are reliant on crits

[dusk stone]

for the cb sectec its not there

[tepid trellis]

storm has 60+% crit rate

[olive canyon]

Thats fair i suppose

[round latch]

how does it feel,being the king once again

[olive canyon]

It generally takes 2 shurikens to get it on all the mobs in range

So effectively, we just plan better

[dusk stone]

how much of a dps increase even if FW

3%?

[tepid trellis]

like 80% of that dmg is shadow

so kinda moot

[dusk stone]

so with that in mind

there's no reason to not use finality build?

[spiral sierra]

would netherprism be used at like 3-4 stacks with sectec, or every 90 seconds?

[dusk stone]

well you also storm as a gap closer too

[tepid trellis]

every 90 sec

[spiral sierra]

kk

[tepid trellis]

or 180 if you are holding for massive pulls/dmg amps

[dusk stone]

nah incorrect

[tepid trellis]

without acounting for shadowed finishers+

?*

[dusk stone]

if you're storing 18 stacks, you are doing that with it so you can die

[dusk stone]

im not sure tbh

[tepid trellis]

the 30% armor pen is roughly 12% more physical dmg done

[dusk stone]

we take tr for a reason so FW must be some appreciable amount

12% or a bit less for like half of your burst isn't worth one strike?

[tepid trellis]

12% on your physical dmg

which isnt alot

[dusk stone]

how much does that translate to

[tepid trellis]

it would rather just try and cycle coups faster

[haughty mural]

If everything fw would be an argument for shadowed finisher not for the armor pen

[tepid trellis]

thats the only thing it is

[haughty mural]

Ye

[dusk stone]

oh thats why

[vagrant thorn]

youre not specced into rotten in keys?

[dusk stone]

yeah i read that tooltip ages ago

thats why i wont ever hit stuff without FW

[tepid trellis]

the reason it shows its bad to use storm in sims, is because FW carries into dances, from just playing regularly

no matter what eleem tried it just wont show as a gain

to use storm

[tepid trellis]

i personally do

[vagrant thorn]

why?

[tepid trellis]

cuz i like it

[dusk stone]

i mean if this is the case

[vagrant thorn]

when do you press it then? :p storm

[dusk stone]

you just storm rupture on gathers

which ig is what we do yeah

[vagrant thorn]

but those arent empowered by rotten cause youre not using symbols yet

[dusk stone]

and then nimble cleaves off of the single target with FW enhanced dmg right

[tepid trellis]

you dont empower storm

with rotten -.-

thats like what this whole ass conversation was about

[haughty mural]

He uses rotten sstrikes

[vagrant thorn]

isnt that the main point of it, so you can shuriken storm once to apply FW to everything?

[haughty mural]

*on

Because they slap

Tldr

[dusk stone]

we're talking about using FW inside of dances

if thats worth it once or not

[tepid trellis]

flurry dmg is calculated before targeted amps xD

[dusk stone]

and assa is bugged

[vagrant thorn]

yeah and apparently it isn't 😛 so do we only spec into it for some bigger shadowstrikes then?

[dusk stone]

so why does TR sim better then?

[tepid trellis]

some people still play by feels and use a storm in dance

[tepid trellis]

it doesent with better gear fwiw

[vale pine]

the most optimal way to use it is with 3 instances of find weakness debuff up.
this tanslates roughly to 3-4 targets, so the diffrence is negliable as you assumed.

[olive canyon]

I suppose the question for me would be, say your prep was unlucky or streak of crits was lower than expected and you go in to a dance burst windopw but realise 3 of 9 mobs in your range have FW ont hem - how much of a gain, if any, would itbe to use the global after you hit symbols/dance to spread FW before you sec tec as opposed to just shadowstriking

[tepid trellis]

there is also a thing people need to realize but dslice sim is not really an accurate representation of m+

so there can very well be builds that would perform better in keys

[dusk stone]

yeah i dont look at sims really, just use them as point of reference for ppl saying stuff

i trust that

[tepid trellis]

its impossible to fully model it 1 to 1

[vale pine]

dungeon slice is perfect for gearing

[tepid trellis]

or well not impossible

but i for sure as hell aint spending 500 hours on it

[vale pine]

but for talents, you even have diffrent priorities in diffrent keys

[tepid trellis]

just for them to introduce a new dungeon pool

[vale pine]

some have rly long big pulls, others are single target focused

[dusk stone]

so finality is the play then?

[vale pine]

players also have preferences

and gear can matter

[tepid trellis]

try em out zorn

play the different builds

[dusk stone]

i did, finality for one key felt kinda crazy for an ara kara

but that isnt a sample size

[tepid trellis]

and make that call for yourself

[dusk stone]

next key felt so rng to get fw

[tepid trellis]

its really the only way to do it

[summer peak]

for bosses like Soul and forge, how are people simming? Dung slice or just patchwork

[vale pine]

the biggest diffrence in gameplay is tea vs. cold blood

[tepid trellis]

just single target

[dusk stone]

yeah i am convinced you struggle with energy with cb in keys

even in dances

[vale pine]

a lot of players will like tea more because of vigor and the energy push it gives

[dusk stone]

it happened again

[vale pine]

i personally like cold blood more ^^

[olive canyon]

Vigor just feels better more so than tea

[dusk stone]

i had strike used and was waiting for energy to BP

[vale pine]

both is good tho

[tepid trellis]

you do run out of energy with CB during TFD if you arent lucky with procs

[karmic harbor]

eleem told me to just sim st

[vale pine]

tea focuses more on aoe, cold blood on st/burst/cleave

you can't make a super bad decision as long as you stay within the reasonable talents

which is nice, because it gives a certain flexibility

[cunning notch]

nahh for reall it was ( for me ) peak sub gameplay, super understandeable and just blast blast blast all the time

[tepid trellis]

i couldnt be happier that its gone xD

[cunning notch]

( untill SV hunter was meta and then i was playing that )

[tepid trellis]

i like my burst profile for sub

[dusk stone]

raccoons aint subtle man

[cunning notch]

rangoon

[olive canyon]

Sub with prism might be one of my fav iterations ever

[vale pine]

+1

i had some discussions with others

[dusk stone]

sub with prism is just a rogue with ascendance

[tepid trellis]

it is funny to go into a pull with 18 stacks prism

[haughty mural]

I regret getting forge in addition to my prism

[tepid trellis]

and peak out at 61mil dps

[vale pine]

and a lot of people don't like subtleties burst profile

[tepid trellis]

at 711 ilvl

[vale pine]

because of downtime damage

[dusk stone]

apparently dh's can get up to 61mil as well

[olive canyon]

I have played rogue on and off at varying levels since BC and always mained rogue. But this version cut a lot of nonsense out and focuses on what it does best - mass burst

[dusk stone]

shaddarak or w/e

[quasi portal]

forgmaster <- 2x on use trinkets, prism + lily, use lily on standard bursts, prism on amp

[vale pine]

but i think the dynamic and burst we have is rly nice

[cunning notch]

Subtitles

[quasi portal]

yay or nay ?

[olive canyon]

I think they need to keep this approach to sub

[dusk stone]

lily and prism is not good

its only forge + prism

[vale pine]

the only 2 bosses 2 on use are extremely good

[olive canyon]

nimble flurry is also a god send

[vale pine]

are the last 2

every other fight, its up to preference

[dusk stone]

ill try finality out tomorrow

[quasi portal]

ok so why not, just keep big one stacking, use it once

[dusk stone]

see how it goes

[olive canyon]

My only regret recently is taking an antenna over a forge in my vault

[quasi portal]

and for the rest of bursts use lily

[spiral sierra]

so the play is forge+prism?

[vale pine]

forge + prism on the last 2 fights

[spiral sierra]

kk

[vale pine]

outside of them, prism + passive is usually better

but both is fine

diffrent trade offs

[dusk stone]

you miss out on passive stat with on use

[tepid trellis]

lily power budget is very small, so you are likely better of just doing prism+passive

[olive canyon]

has anyone tried dropping the rotten and death perception and seeing how finality and dark brew works? or is that a hell no of a starter

[spiral sierra]

i got a pace maker so its not all bad xD

[dusk stone]

maker and prism is 1.5% behind prism and antenna

afaik

[spiral sierra]

bruh i don't have antenna yet 🙁

[karmic raft]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

lilly is good if you don't have forge / prism

[dusk stone]

i got myth pacemaker 1st vault so i wasnt gonna say no

[cunning notch]

Dj khaled aint got nothing on me

[olive canyon]

in m+ i think the on demand burst of a forge/prism would feel better

hence the regret

[spiral sierra]

i only got a vet prism too since my guild gave it away.... kinda madge.

[cunning notch]

prism overrated

[tepid trellis]

underrated if anything

[dusk stone]

i dont think you're suppose to use forge outside of flag

[tepid trellis]

that thing is massive

[cunning notch]

( i'm only hating cus i dont have it )

[dusk stone]

it is the he-man of rogue trinkets

and yes, yes you really do have the power

[naive zodiac]

prism most broken trinket since spymaster

[tepid trellis]

was it nice with a lil break?

also is the headset okay?

[dusk stone]

how much is the headset sueing you for

[naive zodiac]

i’m basically on break till midnight beta

but yeah headset is fucked

[leaden prairie]

[tepid trellis]

that shit got YEETED

[dusk stone]

but yoooo you carried dimensius bro making us rogues look good

[summer peak]

is Jastor still bugged?

[vestal escarp]

[vale pine]

prism is in part why subtlety is so good

[keen dome]

It's so good

Please bake it into our kit somehow I don't know how but I want it forever. Let me push the magic big damage button.

[dusk stone]

i 18 stacked and bp'd the adds today on saladbar, it was funny

i want it baked into a talent called shadow he-man where your character shouts "i have the power" everytime you unload and let it be the absolute opposite of subtlety

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

Turn us into a Shadow Man

[lucid jackal]

[keen dome]

Or just a very buff himbo that works too I guess.

[spark ridge]

does anything lower the cd of symbol or is it always 25?

[tepid trellis]

25 with the talent that lowers it from 30

[clever delta]

Do I just send sub on loomitar today? I saw someone peaked there

[leaden prairie]

send outlaw

[clever delta]

Bro

[dusk stone]

dimensius is a crazy hard fight

[vestal escarp]

Buff shadowblades by 400%

[vale pine]

swift death reduces it from 30 to 25

but there is no other interaction

[dusk stone]

i always try and optimize damage from pull 1 and it felt like the ceiling on that fight was quite high

[frank gull]

Yo sub people.. I just started playing rogue and picked assassination as a spec. Now, I am interested to play Sub.

In wowhead guide, it says the spec focus on dps every 90 sec (around cds). How come the burst window is every 90 seconds while the core cd (Shadow Dance) is a 1 min cooldown? 😵‍💫

[dusk stone]

also the stepping/striking to boss shit is cancer

[summer peak]

GUys, if Jastor is bugged is there any way to know how to sim prorperly?

aorund it or do we still run it

[vale pine]

shadow dance has cdr

so its cooldown is not static

also two charges

basically, subtelty has a lot of smaller cooldowns you want to align to

[leaden prairie]

i wish dance was static no cap

[pseudo sail]

i currently have netherprism trinket macro'd to use always when i press shadowblades, but i'm unsure if i build stacks when its effect is being used or if i should use it on pull CD's (and istead use pull cd's to build prism stacks) therefor my question, is this macro bad? (atleast for raid?)

[vale pine]

the very top level and most important thing on subtlety

is to play your 90 secound cooldowns correct

because they have the highest impact on your output

[spark ridge]

so i use 2 symbols during shadow blades then i use one in between?

[tepid trellis]

sometimes 1 sometimes 2 inbetween

[frank gull]

Ok ok.. it looks like it is similar to fury warrior. Is it something like mini-cds every 45 seconds and the big burst window every 90 seconds?

[tepid trellis]

with a dance

[clever delta]

There is 4x more assa parses even when sub is better on most of bosses

[vale pine]

this means in practice, your first objective when learning is to always have 2x symbols of death, 2x shadow dance and 2x secret technique during the 90 sec cooldowns

because of cdr and charges, you have more cooldowns than that

so you get to use 1-2 times cooldowns in between

[dusk stone]

ive been telling people for a couple of days to learn sub like this:

1.) learn your opener and burst 2.) figure out what youre doing between burst windows 3.) do burst window again and do this repeatedly on a dummy and then 4.) add nuances ontop of that

[tepid trellis]

you essentially need to make a judgement call between your major cooldowns if you can generate enough Shadow dance cdr to send 2 between your blades

[spark ridge]

so are there prolonged periods of time where secret technique sits off cd and its not good to press it?

[clever delta]

Btw what is this jastor bug, what's bugged about it

[vale pine]

your smaller cooldowns you line up with the big ones are symbols of death (25 sec cooldown), shadow dance(1 min cooldown, gets reduced by 0.5 sec every combo point you spend) and secret technique (1 min cooldown, gets reduced by 1 sec every combo point you spend)

[tepid trellis]

so in full single target it usually alternates between 1 and 2 between major cds

[leaden prairie]

it alternate ?

i swear its always 2

or

[tribal blade]

not always 2

[leaden prairie]

i dont rmemeber

[bleak night]

sometimes it decides not to proc at all for funsies

or procs very little

[clever delta]

Maybe they just stealth nerf it

[vale pine]

the sequence during dance is fairly simple:

• flagellation-(finisher)-dance-dance
  during both dances you want to use secret technique as soon as possible and symbols of death aligned with them in a way to have supercharger on secret technique.
  The rest is just builder spender with shadowstrike/evis

[bleak night]

well a chance at it not proccing a single time the entire fight would be a rather strange nerf

[tepid trellis]

you pretty much never press secret alone, outside of the case where you can only send 1 symbols+dance between major cds but it needs to be early enough that you can generate enough cdr on it for to be back for your burst

[vale pine]

i explained it yesterday, but lets go over it again

symbosl has 25 sec cooldown, so if you send 2 symbols during blades/flag, you still generate 1 charge and progress 15 sec of a second charge

this means you can always use symbols + cooldowns 3 times 100%

[clever delta]

Its getting more complicated with every message fuu send

[vale pine]

this 15 sec means you can use a 4th symbols + cooldowns every 2nd time

however

you start the fight with 3 charges of symbols

so this means you have a buffer

[eternal cypress]

probably a dumb question but u send secret technique on cd?

[tepid trellis]

no

[vale pine]

you use secret only during dance

but as first finisher

which is "on cooldown", but ONLY during Shadow Dance

(kinda)

[final pawn]

is weaponmaster vs first dance a disussion worthy of its name?

[cunning notch]

Do we ever try to maximise Dance macabre stacks ?

[final pawn]

because i see different builds

[vale pine]

haha, yes the cooldown talk was targeted at zac, as its more complicated

[tepid trellis]

no

[eternal cypress]

so i't worth to hold shadow dance anytime to align with secret techinque?

[spark ridge]

is the first dance of a fight meant to have 2 sec techs in it since its longer?

[cunning notch]

copy that

[tepid trellis]

you can yes

just make sure the clones land inside of shadow dance

[vale pine]

weaponmaster is weak, it is why the first dance can win over it even on 5-6 minute fights, if your fight is super long weaponmaster can be better

[leaden prairie]

honestly its prolly that i just do it by vibes so im unaware

[final pawn]

im talking about m+ btw, for reference

like some builds i found online run weapon master instead of first dance and it confused me

[tepid trellis]

so if you were to send a 2nd supercharged sectech when the first dance is at 1 sec left on duration, you NEED to make sure you spam that dance button to get it back up for the last clone to hit

[vale pine]

which is probably good, learning when to/when not to send is important

also teaches you parts of the flexibility

[spark ridge]

whats the reasoning for using secret technique so early in the dance instead of with macabre stacks?

[vale pine]

from the buffer charges to word it that way

[vale pine]

flawless form stacks

secret technique was sucessively nerfed in most patches

initially nerfed by 30%

due to a bugfix

[frank gull]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

then nerfed another 5%

so its still rly good

[tribal blade]

they're either running raid build by accident or they fucked up

[vale pine]

but hero talents shifted power into other parts of the spec

[vagrant thorn]

when I notice mid-90 sec sequence that I failed to press shadowblades or flag I just wanna commit sewerslide, I yell irl, I despair

[vale pine]

which is why we just send secret asap

[tepid trellis]

it also make you by pass the icd of unseen blade stacking up your coup de grace faster

[vale pine]

its the good and the bad thing about subtlety

you know if you made a mistake because your output sucks

[spark ridge]

gotcha

thanks for the detailed answers

[tepid trellis]

@spark ridge thats what a double sectech first dance would look like

[ripe warren]

i see all embellishments used by top rogues, what exactly do i want on my wrist?

[vale pine]

the diffrence is low

[tribal blade]

pretty sure you can slap anything on there and be fine

[keen dome]

Whatever sims best but probably lens

It doesn't matter

[vale pine]

i usually suggest playing 2x lense

[tribal blade]

i just put dawnthread lining on because i was using it for sin last season

and cba to swap it