subtlety

[hazy breach]

So a lot of people do that simply because of muscle memory

[tribal blade]

would it be troll to have my blades macro also include sectec

[maiden oar]

how much am i losing by muscle memorying dance -> bs -> symbols

[hazy breach]

No

[tribal blade]

mmmm interesting

[maiden oar]

im trying to correct it but i forget alot

[tribal blade]

maybe i reduce button presses that way

[pseudo sail]

mythic lily or heroic antenna? (sim says antenna currently running chamion lilly and crystal)

[tribal blade]

i would prob say m lily

because you can only get that from vault

that could be the only one you see the entire season

not sure if you're a mythic raider or not, if you're a mythic raider you don't really need lily tbh

[pseudo sail]

I'm not a mytthic raider

but i reckon mythic lilly will still get outperformed by prism at HC no?

[tribal blade]

unsure but m lily will be much higher ilvl than heroic prism

[sour marsh]

is there an explanation ! for why we should use CB on the second ST?

[hazy breach]

You have more flawless form stacks

[snow lake]

I'm torn between m logic gate, h antenna, m lily.. Sims in ST are showing gate higher, but in cleave fights it a toss up between lily (double on use) or antenna.

[sour marsh]

ah ok thanks

[vagrant thorn]

you have more flagellation stacks

[pseudo sail]

exact same dillema hahaha

[cobalt surge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[snow lake]

its a feels bad taking heroic antenna when i can see mythic one tho

[short radish]

I FUCKING LOVE PRISM HOLY SHIT

[keen dome]

It's such a good trinket

[tribal blade]

i just did a quick patchwerk sim in my M+ talents

[tall girder]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FIMB

[short radish]

its acutally amazing

[maiden oar]

congrats

[tribal blade]

looks like 710 prism outperforms m illy by a lot

[short radish]

thanks (dont look at my boss damage)

[maiden oar]

hehe

[tall girder]

im looking

[maiden oar]

i improved my boss dam on that boss from last week by alot

[tribal blade]

it's a fun trinky 😉

can't wait till you die with 18 stacks

[maiden oar]

but i missed out on add dmg this week

[pseudo sail]

Okay, so in that case, taking antenna is kinda a no brainer i guess

[maiden oar]

have to get the balance next time

[short radish]

being able to hold cds for like 30 seconds

to line up with 2nd pot

and even more damage

is so good

[tall girder]

okay top boss damage fimb

lets go

[short radish]

i was still BP spamming

in p3

[tall girder]

based

[short radish]

im a filthy padder

[tall girder]

u just like me fr

[short radish]

[maiden oar]

holy moly your kt goes crazy

zoom

[tribal blade]

might be yeah, still hard to say for sure

[short radish]

yeah just lust pull or something

new tech feel free to copy

very innovative

[maiden oar]

[tall girder]

not enough rain of fires from the 3 destro locks

[short radish]

turns out if we're shit at doing pylons

we just skip the pylons

[maiden oar]

wait u skipped a set

[short radish]

[maiden oar]

what the

insane

[near jetty]

im still can open this powers?

[tall girder]

yea

[short radish]

yeah we were just wiping on pylons over and over

so someone was like "wait why dont we just lust pull"

[tall girder]

just gotta do the delve the power is in

[short radish]

[near jetty]

for crit which one?

xDD

[short radish]

literally first pull lusting pull

[short radish]

hover over it

should be skittering something i think

[tall girder]

yea skittering breach

thats the one in hallowfall i think

[maiden oar]

is the dmg amp in the final phase equivalent to the one post pylons

or how does the 5m flag go

[near jetty]

ah got it ty ❤️

[maiden oar]

or is there no dmg.amp in final phase and was i mislead

[short radish]

dunno but we're acutally just incompetent at killing pylons

no damage amp i think

so we miss out on 2nd damage amp

but dont need it

[maiden oar]

oh i see

neat

[keen dome]

Normal Saladbar this week was comical. The dragon just going "nah man" and him dying in P1 lol

[maiden oar]

idk where i heard hes amped in the final phase

evil misinfo

[hazy breach]

No he amps after the pylons

[keen dome]

He isn't, the dragon has 100% damage taken when it's being devoured.

[hazy breach]

Oh wait you moved onto saldbar

[keen dome]

Oh, you mean Araz my bad

haha, high5 eleem

[maiden oar]

yeah i have no clue where i heard that hes amped in black hole phase

[crystal bone]

yea im gonna be sad when they no longer have a prism-like trinket

[hazy breach]

Just rework flag to a prism-like cd like somebody suggested here a while back

So we always have a prism

[crystal bone]

that'd be cool lol

[dusk stone]

so yeah i had an ackward experience with the dragon earlier in gambit and 2nd time it happened

[upper oracle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[dusk stone]

we had completed the first cycle going to drop fire in the back, when a failed bait by healer left fire behind me, towards the ocean and i got anchored

[maiden oar]

@short radish do you think subs actually better on plexus btw

[dusk stone]

literally anchored into fire with no agency

[maiden oar]

i noticed 2 sub guys very high up on all rogues on that fight

[short radish]

no clue but im not playing assi

[maiden oar]

i was playing sin but i think u guys beat me

oh i just try to play best spec for fight

but id rather play sub

[short radish]

im kinda monkey on whats better on fights

[slate hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[maiden oar]

in my head that was fb sin

but u and messer beat me

and im like up there for fb sin guys

so im thinking its a sub angle

[hazy breach]

Dont think it really matters much

[maiden oar]

bc of the downtime

[dusk stone]

are there adds in mythic

[near jetty]

guys i finsihed that delve and didnt got thet ower for belt

[hazy breach]

But the pain of having the shield up on the boss at 36%

And not 35%

[maiden oar]

oh it doesnt i just want to be good at understanding what the best spec for a fight is

[near jetty]

do i ahve too dos oemthing espcial?

[maiden oar]

i think its a useful skill to have

so if im wrong i wanna know

[crystal bone]

where did u send ur 18 stacks on araz

damage amp or adds?

im guessing adds if u were embarrased by boss dmg xD

[maiden oar]

2 funny little ghost guys in the intermission

but theyre kinda fake

[dusk stone]

why would it be a sub fight over fb sin though

isnt standard theory fb sin for single target where there isnt amp or adds this tier

[maiden oar]

yeah

its basically pure st

like i got more of my dam from adds than the sub players

and i just dotted them and left

[short radish]

no 2nd trinket so on cd

and then held a little longer for last bit to line up potion

[maiden oar]

oh im talking about plexus

if u mean araz thats a sub fight 10000%

[short radish]

well on adds then held for 1st damage amp

[dusk stone]

yes plexus

[crystal bone]

ok

[maiden oar]

yea

thats basically full st guy no amp

[crystal bone]

im excited to prog araz

[maiden oar]

so i thought itd be fb sin

[dusk stone]

i keep getting decent parses compared to my guildies as well

[maiden oar]

but i am thinking i was wrong

[dusk stone]

it seems like ok fight for sub

[tribal blade]

sin in general is pretty far ahead of sub on plexus

but then you have the literal #1 rogue parse is sub

[maiden oar]

yea and then #2 sub still is stronger than me as #2 sin

so i begin to wonder

bc there are moments on sin where the downtime is unfriendly

[tribal blade]

i wouldn't think too much into it though because it's the 1st boss 😉

[maiden oar]

oh yea

its more to practice being good at knowing correct spec for a fight

[tribal blade]

i think sub piloted well competes with FB sin in pure ST it looks

[maiden oar]

yea

fractillus its less like that

so i do think it has something to do w the intermission

will keep that in mind for the future

[acoustic matrix]

!log

[crystal bone]

any downtime will def favor sub

[empty plume]

execute duration probably matters

[crystal bone]

but fract is a literal patchwerk sim

and sin fb is winning that

[acoustic matrix]

idk, with the bugs sin doesn't look so strong rn

Whispyr went from top dps to last in a week in his raids

[hazy breach]

Subs losing to literally everybody on fract

The new bug doesnt matter unless youre playing deathstalker

[crystal bone]

yea man i was just looking at our logs, im like 13th on dps and parsed a 98

[hazy breach]

If youre fatebound its whatever

[acoustic matrix]

The tier set is bugged too

[hazy breach]

Ye but thats mostly a positive bug

[acoustic matrix]

Ye idk maybe he just played bad yesterday but his damage was looking much weaker

[graceful osprey]

Is sub bugged again?

[hazy breach]

Sub has never not been bugged, but not sure what bug youre specifically asking about

[vale pine]

we always have bugs, its mostly a question of how big of an impact they have

[crystal bone]

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[empty plume]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-gif-18932176

[vale pine]

is probably the most annoying bug left

[random comet]

im pretty sure i relogged and it still fucked out a few times tonight

[hazy breach]

Shadowcraft still buggy with coup and premed

[acoustic matrix]

what does it mean stops working, the ability doesn't fire ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[acoustic matrix]

Cause I switch between the 2 and haven't had it yet

Maybe because my cold blood is macroed ?

[crystal bone]

this ive noticed sometimes i think

[hazy breach]

But most of the assa bugs whispyr mentioned are also just passives that you dont really feel

Like the shadowed finisher/nimble flurry bugs on sub

[opal basalt]

okay so what do i do with this goddamn vault? i have last ssn crafted gloves on still and thus use tier shoulder on champ

i'm tempted to just take the heroic gloves for the quick upgrade

myth track shoulders are crit mastery so they're also quite good i guess

looks like i need to spam keys for gloves to catalyze to me

(i did raid already and didnt get gloves)

[next otter]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[crystal bone]

first thing is remove anything that can be farmed i guess

[lilac stag]

Mythic legs or shoulders

Legs are huge stats

[crystal bone]

yup

[steady lark]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[steady lark]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[warm marlin]

Sin was good on it when you got 2 deathmarks in execute

And especially the 6minute full spymaster pot dm in execute

My guild killed it at 6:00 today

[maiden oar]

i see

makes sense ty

[warm marlin]

technically you can just hold the 430 dm for 5mins for pot/vanish if you won’t miss a cast

Since the 6min timing isn’t great for sub either

[maiden oar]

yeah i think im never seeing 6mins again

[warm marlin]

but then you get 1 dm in execute I think which is a bit sad

[opal basalt]

did a sim with if i had tier gloves on 701 and its the shoulders. lets spam some keys for gloves then Pog

[lilac stag]

@warm marlin toughts on sub for loom. worried we're not gonna have people focus tangles enough

[opal basalt]

streets and halls

my favourite dungeons

(not)

[lilac stag]

isnt there a champ level vendor for gloves, or was that chest

[maiden oar]

dont think im seeing much past 5m either

maybe i give sub a try next wk

i got scammed on heroic plexus he died right before my 3m flag

[warm marlin]

You sac a bit of boss dmg for more tangle dmg

[lilac stag]

good luck trying to sort out heroic timers ahhah

[lilac stag]

i asked if they want me to hard focus boss. will see what they say

[warm marlin]

i played sub on loom yesterday

it was good

[lilac stag]

dino said you can step and cleave both tangles

[swift tinsel]

I never swap off boss lol

[lilac stag]

you kinda need to in mythic

[maiden oar]

thats cool

[lilac stag]

well some do

[warm marlin]

sounds scary

[maiden oar]

sin is ramping kb every time a tangle spawns

[crystal bone]

in mythic?

[maiden oar]

unlucky

[swift tinsel]

Ye I’m sure I’ll have to when we get there

[crystal bone]

the dream of sitting boss

[swift tinsel]

I just tell them I’m out of cds and keep stabbin

Which is true

[crystal bone]

its true no1 understands how sub works

[lilac stag]

you sound like every havoc dh I play with in Dawnbreaker refusing to get barrels

[swift tinsel]

They kinda let me do whatever I want

As far as allocating my damage

[warm marlin]

on assa last week i did 5.1M boss dps and a huge 3k tangle dps
on sub this week with 3% buff and 3ilvl i did 4.8M boss dps and 200k tangle dps (but we killed exactly at 6mins as well so i only got 1 flag in dmg amp which was a bit sad)

[lilac stag]

18 stack for p2 i'm assuming

[warm marlin]

ya

[magic ruin]

Why does the interloper boots sim so differently between "Top gear sim" and "gear compare"? Both uses nightly sim version.

[lilac stag]

was going to look over logs this morning. trying to sort out texture issues in raid atm

[swift tinsel]

I just need to fork over $4000 for a mythic loot funnel run

[still vector]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[swift tinsel]

Just for a prism

[lilac stag]

i'll likely start as sub and swap over if needed. they know i'll kill whatever is prio so overall i'm not super worried, just want boss dead

[hazy breach]

Gear compare is obsolete, just always use top gear.
But to answer your question its because the boots you selected in gear compare probably doesnt have the effect on them

[void ocean]

which boss

[hazy breach]

Part of why you shouldnt be using it

[graceful osprey]

Just got my 4pc, I am ready to pop CDs and nuke

[fathom adder]

do you even use symbols without dance and/or sectec with symbols out of dance with 4p anymore, or do you just hold sectec those ~ 10 seconds

[lilac stag]

loom, our range usually is struggle bus with add swaps

[void ocean]

classic fckin range

[woeful wren]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[void ocean]

cant they ever kill anything alone

[lilac stag]

on Rik it was me and the havoc running around killing solo range adds

[void ocean]

shadowsteppin to narnia

[lilac stag]

why is scath asking for a grip back to boss?

kekw

vanish strike when available lol

[swift tinsel]

Lol my 8.6k tangle dps is gonna stay buried in logs since no one else looks at them

[lilac stag]

soul is such a fun sub fight

[swift tinsel]

Ye it’s def my favorite so far

[maiden oar]

yea

[lilac stag]

idk if vigor/tea is the play but it felt good

[maiden oar]

its so funny

[swift tinsel]

My damage can’t be touched that fight

[void ocean]

yea, has that kick in the crotch, spit on the neck kinda flavour

[swift tinsel]

I want prism so bad just for the 2min nukefest

[void ocean]

just love when my targets r jumpin around

[lilac stag]

you have somethign for every spawn which is great. then the chaos at the end

[void ocean]

and im yet to come doing it on myth

[maiden oar]

its so cool to eat all the adds and get flamed by your guild

[warm marlin]

we have a staggering 6 pulls but fight is kind of chaotic

[lilac stag]

i was quite proud of my sub "otp" skill taking over

[warm marlin]

seems harder than heroic to not int gcds on your flag windows with all the stuff going on

[solid vale]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[swift tinsel]

I was told I need to “save some DPS pussy for the rest of us” last night 😂

[void ocean]

whats a dps pussy

[maiden oar]

im going to study perfecto pov for soul hunter with a magnifying glass

surely the answers are there

[warm marlin]

yea look at his 3min flag and tell me that looks fun

[swift tinsel]

Dude our tanks were pissing me off so much on hunters

[maiden oar]

ok i will

[swift tinsel]

Legit could not get cleave value to save my life

[lilac stag]

as fun as DS Sub?

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/why-are-you-running-why-are-you-running-away-pretty-liars1-nollywood-gif-16102856

tanks on hunters

[maiden oar]

i just did 1 pull on it after fract reclear and i played sin bc i didnt feel like relogging for cb

[warm marlin]

i mean literally anything is better so no

[maiden oar]

i am not.playing sin on that boss ever again

its so annoying

[lilac stag]

whip out the heroic 1h and outlaw it up

[swift tinsel]

I’m sub one-tricking this whole tier

[void ocean]

im gona be sin only on pure st

meaning 1st, 2nd and 6th boss

[swift tinsel]

Even fract

[maiden oar]

i was planning on sin on plexus/loom/fract and sub on every other boss

but maybe its sub on every boss

[swift tinsel]

I topped plexus somehow

[void ocean]

i died like an idiot

[dusk stone]

how tf you survive 14 fg as rogue everything is death

[void ocean]

on plexus kill

[lilac stag]

i fell through the world, twice, on Dime

[maiden oar]

i died on last wks plexus bc i shadowstepped to my tank leaping through orbs and outranged my healers

was funny

[lilac stag]

dismount over add and just keep falling

catlike wouldnt have saved me

[warm marlin]

i learned this week that i can cheat the moving death wall

[maiden oar]

so strong

[hazy breach]

You can tank one of the green blade dance things with feint to keep up your globals

You gotta send your cds ASAP on soul hunters (except the last one)

[lilac stag]

just dont run into a bubble after the fact hahah (dont ask me how I know)

[warm marlin]

im cooking timers that i like better

i think they have potential

[maiden oar]

soul men:
opener
on cd
3:12 or so (after blue dude dashes)
4:48 or so (same as above)
after final intermission (fel dev guy)

[fathom adder]

when do you stop sending dances/symbols in aoe? like 30 seconds left on blades?

[maiden oar]

i remember writing this during rwf

[glacial basin]

yo guys igot araz trinket now and wanna combo it with sth for m+
dont have the one from fractilus but ihave signet of priory and empowered crystal on myth track

[swift tinsel]

Has anyone tried stepping someone through the death wall

[maiden oar]

but idk if those timings are correct still

[void ocean]

also fckin opener on Dimensius is fcked up if u r just outside the circle

[lilac stag]

you need 1.5 dances and 1.4 SODs for go

[void ocean]

shadowstrike teleports u to the mid

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[lilac stag]

hit box and arms fuck that dime bag

[swift tinsel]

Cannot vanish strike that big idiot

[lilac stag]

LFR Dime is fucking hilarous

[calm urchin]

Hello, what would you reccomend for m+, lilly + prism, or pacemaker + prism. I did the topgear and such, but given how prism works, and it's ramp time, results are a bit wacky

[lilac stag]

we had 13 wipes to people not knowing what a portal was a thte start

[near jetty]

do we ahve macro for rupture target/mousover?

[cursive vapor]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[acoustic matrix]

What does the top gear say ?

[swift tinsel]

/cast [@mouseover,harm,nodead][] Rupture

[void ocean]

/cast [@mouseover] rupture; i guess

[near jetty]

not only mousover i want target too

[swift tinsel]

Ruptures mouse over if you have one, target if not

[near jetty]

like @mousover first then target on prio

[swift tinsel]

I typed that one out for you

[calm urchin]

well, dungeon slice says pace + prism, but would that mean, that you send prism even on first pull? I even tried 5 target 2 minutes, but that just says to use lily + pace (which is understandable i suppose, since prism wont have time to ramp)

[void ocean]

it has to have that exist thingy as well

[near jetty]

tyyyy

[acoustic matrix]

Can you link the top gear with prism ?

[calm urchin]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7Jxvfvdpc2jg1DsPSomnVG

sorry it says to use pace + prism, not lilly

[vale widget]

Who needs astral antenna when this appears

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-clueless-clueless-emote-wojak-disturbed-gif-24266075

[acoustic matrix]

Had to choose between heroic antenna and mythic weap

[lilac stag]

antenna it is

[acoustic matrix]

Weap simmed much higher

[lilac stag]

as an offhand? no way

well MH with crafted OH

[acoustic matrix]

it made me switch my crafted to oh

ye

[vale widget]

I guess myth seforium its my antenna but for raidless

[acoustic matrix]

I have the delve mastery trinket so I think it competes with antenna

[maiden oar]

i think plexus soulbinder will be puggable very soon if not rn

if u kill soulbinder it puts antenna in vault

[vale widget]

Its prob, but the other options arent better

[maiden oar]

yea just dont give up forever

[vale widget]

So seforium and going forward

[acoustic matrix]

Seems like the sim sends prism with shadow blade no matter what

So it's actually accurate to how your first pull would go
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mNHSPUAgQm2GbNUDSHciW2

[fathom adder]

2 targets out of dance is backstab builder because of unseen right? do i understand it correctly

[acoustic matrix]

yes

and also flawless form

[woeful wren]

are ppl using stone idol ST?

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[signal moth]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[round nimbus]

in the method sub guide it says "if Trickster you don't press Shuriken Storm during dance"

why is that

[lilac stag]

You only use it for rotten to spread FW

Otherwise strike is better dmg in dance

[fathom adder]

so no rotten no storm to spread fw?

[heady spoke]

I’m new to rogue and learned assassination pretty easily but I’m really struggling to wrap my head around sub. I’m not really sure what it is but my brain just implodes. Anyone have any suggestions for how to start with just the basics?

[lilac stag]

correct

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[dusk stone]

1.) learn the opener 2.) figure out what goes inbetween the opener 3.) repeat opener 4.) layer the nuances after you have done 1st 3

[cosmic rapids]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[dusk stone]

right side priory is a war crime i am convinced

[fathom adder]

i am still unsure when to use symbols and sectec out of dance at all. Only "position" i see it is after the 2 dances inbetween cds when you wait on dance refresh but got enough time to refresh 1 symbol and sectec as well

[dusk stone]

its harder this patch because we have more dance cdr with tea and 4p

typically when symbols and dance aren't aligned well you send symbols and sectec, symbols like that is mostly used to farm CDR because it gives energy

[fathom adder]

thank you

[vale pine]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[amber sedge]

thats a hard choice

[west ridge]

Yo guys im fairly new to sub, almost only played assa, til now and i wanna learn a bit more rogue diversity. So i hope u could help me out a lil bit to learn and try mastering the spec

Can u explain me why we use backstab as our first gcd in our shadowdance window and not shadow strike

I mean i probably do many things still wrong cause i only peak 10mio dps on the puppets in dornogal in aoe

[marble mauve]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[swift tinsel]

backstab grants an additional Danse Macabre stack and generates full combo points because of Premeditation

[vale pine]

its a small optimization for output, we get a stack of danse macabre.
And premediation does give us full combo points so we don't waste ressources

[vale pine]

🙌 high 5, we both gave the same answer with diffrent wording ^^

[nova dew]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[west ridge]

Okok trying to get that in my muscle memory thanks guys

[solemn creek]

Ohh god...

I read cold blood bug invertly

[swift tinsel]

hows the season been going for you so far?

[solemn creek]

Thought the bug was on assa. When swapping from sub... not the other way aroubd

Need to learn to read

Just looked at all my log.. no cb cast 🤣

[vale pine]

i got my 4 set, but still rocking a normal prism

so would say okay-ish

this weeks vault wasn't that impressive

but its 2 weeks into the season

so

[swift tinsel]

I feel that, I'm still sporting the pvp trinket lol

hoping next week's vault has a hc prism waiting for me

[solemn creek]

My heroic prism is still normal lvl. (704) but that trinket is so fun to play around in key

[vale pine]

gear progression and especially impact of luck matters more for people who raid competitively in the top world ranks

[hazy breach]

Ye i love it

[vale pine]

so not having the best things asap is just nature of the intetional gear prgression

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, our loot drops trinket-wise have been really bad in general so that's definitely slowing gear progression for us which is fine

[vale pine]

(i don't like split raiding as a means to shortcut it, which i see getting more popular every tier)

[swift tinsel]

we still have a few people without 4pc yet

[solemn creek]

Our mythic kill drop has been horrible
We still havent seen antenna. Our sentinel keeps dropping intel/str weapon that no one wants.. we got 3 weapon out of our most recent kill

Or we get bracer/belt that no one need

[hazy breach]

Going into a pull in m+ with coup and 18 stacks of prism ready for when the pugs in your group inevitably hit you with something like "bruh"

[solemn creek]

Haha..this week in +10

Ur like.. almost always in cd

[swift tinsel]

one day

[wet plank]

no 4 pc yet is actually trolling insane bad rng

[swift tinsel]

I will ascend

[vale pine]

haha, so true

[crystal bone]

its so fun 😄

[swift tinsel]

can hit 6-8mil overalls without one yet, I yearn for the big dams

[solemn creek]

Doing 18 m dps.. while everyone is at 5m.. cose u just killed everytjing so fast on a 10

Then u get that 30 40m with trinket in priory

[swift tinsel]

also wasn't the most attentive about fitting 2nd sectech into tfd but since doing that my openers are skyhigh

well, skyhigh-er

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel weekly keys are kinda enjoyable again

[summer peak]

Hey guys asked people a few times but didn’t get a reply, is there a reason this still goes off twice if I press it twice and the sequence doesn’t stop it

note I only use it for opener and 3 min CDs

/cast [stance:0] Shadow Dance
/USE Tempered Potion
/castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
/cast [known:The First Dance] Backstab

[swift tinsel]

I've been loving keys for probably the first time ever

lol

instead of just trudging through them

[lilac stag]

i've got 4/8 done before monday hahaha

[keen dome]

Ye, keys feel super good this season. Esp with entherprism

Raid is real good for pugging, too

Went 8/8N and then 6/8H with my pug this morning.

[vale pine]

nice

[swift tinsel]

huuuuge

[keen dome]

I think the group could've done Saladbar but i was hungry and couldn't be bothered

[swift tinsel]

its been one of the more fun raid tiers so far

[lilac stag]

nice

[quiet smelt]

whats best way to sim for keys ? patchwerk 5 targs or dslice ?

[swift tinsel]

we got him to 15% last night after a few pulls, gonna finish up tomorrow

[keen dome]

Dungeonslice, the sim tool for dungeons.

[swift tinsel]

we entirely skipped p3 through every normal kill so we're learning all of the dance for the first time in heroic lol

[keen dome]

Haha, nice

To be fair you can yolo it on ormal so it's hard to practice it

We killed him in P1 on normal today which was extremely funny.

[swift tinsel]

yeah, pretty sure you can skip platforms and p3 if you zerg it hard enough

[keen dome]

2 minute fight lmao

I think the ideal way on heroic is naturally push him into intermission and hero there. You wanna kill the dragon and he's gonna be hyper low if you've naturally pushed

[dusk stone]

super fun raid for sure

[swift tinsel]

our tanks made the expert decision on our first p3 pull to move him towards the edge of the room instead of near the middle so no one could hit stars with beams

[keen dome]

Hahaha

[swift tinsel]

idk what it was but last night they could not move in ways that make sense to a normal human mind

[keen dome]

The dratnos video on the fight is extremely good and his P3 is how I got the heroic pug to kill the boss in 4 pulls

[dusk stone]

did they try tanking him off of the platform so the boss could take killzone fall damage?

[swift tinsel]

and for araz they kept the echoes on top of the boss

[keen dome]

urgh, what's up with that

[swift tinsel]

yeah idk

[keen dome]

I've had multiple people telling me that's how you do it in pugs, too

[swift tinsel]

might have just been an off night

[keen dome]

And like, no, no you don't. The boss goes immune.

But some people are adamant you drop the soak on the boss on heroic too??

[swift tinsel]

yeah there's a big ring around him

kinda hard to miss

wait what

[keen dome]

I've just been kicking them from my pugs when they get annoying with suggesting an extremely stupid way to do the boss

Just put X near the door pylon. Soak tank goes out, soak, tank echo there. Orbs on boss. Donezo simple

Then do Orbs -> echo -> boss as priority

[swift tinsel]

I'm screenshotting that to hopefully fix our tank woes for that fight lol

I get annoyed with unnecessary/nonsensical movement so I was particularly irked last night

[keen dome]

Yeah

Tanks can just sit on boss until the soak, move out to X by the door pylon. Tank the echo until it dies, and go back in.

it removes any variance. Then DPS just focus orbs, then echo, then boss if no orbs or echo.

[swift tinsel]

we have 2 pwarr too so leaping out is like..their thing

[keen dome]

Yeah

People love to overcomplicate fights this tier

[swift tinsel]

I just wanna be on add murder duty in peace lol

[keen dome]

I like Fractilus 'cos it's just "can you count to six" the fight

[glossy turtle]

When do we stop using dance, to make sure we have the right ammount for flag window. Like at what cd ledt of flag, do we start holding bsck on cds? I usually do it around 40, but dont know if that is right

[swift tinsel]

few people struggled with that too lmao

me and our havoc have basically become clean-up duty

because we're arguably two of the most mechanically-sound ones on the roster

[lilac stag]

Only have 5 digits on the hand. Your SOL with that 6 Mumbo jumbo.

[keen dome]

Haha

Every time people talk about WA's and I just tell them we're doing it without and they just have to count to six

I've yet to need more than 2 pulls on it on heroic

[hazy breach]

40 is probably a bit too conservative as a general rule of thumb

30 probably better

[swift tinsel]

yeah I mean as long as you aren't walling the group constantly they should sort themselves out without having to commit more than one braincell to it

[hazy breach]

But its not a hard rule, as long as youre sure youll be able to use 2 symbols, 2 sectechs and 2 dances in blades you can kinda send whenever

[keen dome]

Yeah, 100%

[cursive vapor]

even for m+? thought like ~20 sec

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[shadow lance]

I wonder how didn't tilt yet Eleem

[cursive vapor]

is it a hard rule?

[warm marlin]

being able to use 2x of everything for blades ya

[hazy breach]

Subs entire rotation revolves around being able to send 2 of each in blades yeah

[warm marlin]

the 30s rule kind of assumes you're just zugging away casting stuff in which case it works pretty well, if you have a plan you can cast dance 15s before flag even and still be fine

[wet echo]

is 2x lens recommended for all content or do we do something else for m+/general use?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt particularly matter, you can use 2 dawn/dusk lining or ascendance+writhing if you prefer

Theyre all pissweak and inconsequential

[cursive vapor]

(for legal reason that was a joke)

[cedar grail]

guys

can sub still use one hander weapons in offhand?

or its strictly 2 daggers

[exotic zephyr]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hollow spear]

If you want to do damage: no

[exotic zephyr]

can we cast shadowblades and flag and trinket in the same macro

[vale pine]

you always want to use 2 daggers

[exotic zephyr]

is that even good to do?

[hollow spear]

No

It's shit

[hazy breach]

You can yes, but its bad

[vale pine]

a 1h weapon is too slow, so you lose out on sht procs

hmm

[hollow spear]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[cursive vapor]

rip

[cedar grail]

damn i have a mythic one hander weapon and 1 dagger 🙁 want to swap from outlaw

[vale pine]

there it is

it was !oh

you can pmuch put a weak dagger in offhand

the slow is not worth much

[hazy breach]

Youre better of using a random dagger from the AH than a mythic one hander

[vale pine]

it is one of the weakest item slots for rogue

[hazy breach]

But ye offhand ilvl doesnt matter much anyway

[cedar grail]

cool

thanks ❤️

[pastel radish]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[weary tree]

Anyone got an idea why they used 2 on-use trinkets on last two bosses instead of antenna?

[spice lichen]

yeah craft a calm lil 675 blue with crests

[old sorrel]

what are the best sim settings to sim m+ for sub?

[spice lichen]

more burst

[lucid jackal]

Nexus king really rewards burst damage, and dimensius has a lot of forced positioning which hurts your antenna uptime

[sour coral]

Is anyone playing The Rotten in keys?
None of the m+ builds on the guides use the talent

[weary tree]

For nexus king you just have more burst because you can use either trinket if prism isnt stacked then?

[hazy breach]

You can if you want, doesnt really change much

For nexus king its doing more damage to the platform with the double on-use

And thats a tight dps check too

[weary tree]

Is it also because want to fully stack prism then

Not use it eveyr 1.5min

[hazy breach]

You'd obviously do slightly less to the big amp since you dont have a passive alongside your prism

But youre doing more to the platform

[crystal bone]

flaire badge when

[weary tree]

So sub is much more useful for adds on that fight then

[lilac stag]

Yes. A lot of CN rogues are. Great for big AOE

[lilac stag]

They joys of funneling loot to a player helps. Forge and Prism for an avg raider may not be the easiest combo to secure since forge is legit BiS for many specs and just a really nice extra option for Sub.

The Hunters trinket maybe a nice passive option when antenna is kinda wank

[weary tree]

Yeah I figured getting forge is a hard task if not from vault

[lilac stag]

I forgot its name

[weary tree]

I just got antenna in vault and wondered if it's worth taking or try to get the forge

But I guess forge is more very optimized stuff on those fights

Not super much gain

[lilac stag]

Antenna is amazing for both specs

Can worry about the 2x on use if it shows itself later as you prog

prism is our biggie

[weary tree]

ye i know

Think theres more gain to be had putting forge on other clases

Than optimize swapping antenna for forge on sub

[lilac stag]

in our raid make up there is

so it’ll be a vault angle likely

[weary tree]

So there's not a massive downside then to not having double on use for those two

Just slightly less optimal

[hazy breach]

Correct

[cedar grail]

i still have 681 daggers from last season. but just wondered cus i played outlaw this few weeks and i got 1 crafted and 1 mythic 1H

[spice lichen]

oh that's tuff

[alpine wraith]

have you done visions

[lilac stag]

You can buy a 691 from visions

[alpine wraith]

you can buy veteran weps there

or just craft the weapon with no enchanted crest

that is also 691

then after you get the one from killing dimensius you upgrade to 704

[neon frigate]

Quick dung question. In ara kara when is good time to use bloodlust?

[turbid edge]

First pull then on bosses prob

[neon frigate]

Otherwise 1st and 3rd boss?

[lilac stag]

Wrong channel to ask about lust. We don’t notice when it’s cast as sub.

[turbid edge]

Yeah I guess. 1st pull, 2nd boss, 3rd boss prob better

[north marlin]

#showtooltip Symbols of Death
/cast [stance:0] Shadow Dance; Backstab
/castsequence reset=5 Symbols of Death,null
/cqs

[steel horizon]

/cast shadow blades
/cast blood fury
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism

does this macro make sense to use with the double on use? this should effectively alternate trinkets starting with ritual forge right?

[south sedge]

any reason to back stab occasionally in mass aoe to stack coup stacks or is cycling dances enough? feels like sometimes we can sit on a unseen proc for a while

[swift tinsel]

cycling dances is usually enough

[pliant gyro]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[summer crest]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[summer crest]

Do we need to have a dagger in offhand? If, i had a 720 crafted sword could it be used in my OH over a 710 dagger?

[upper plinth]

Is it right that we dont equip all 4 gemcolors to max the diamond?

[vale pine]

yes

[fringe island]

Imagine if I rolled like this in Heroic

won them both in fkn normal

[keen dome]

You want a dagger in your OH, yeah.

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[summer crest]

Thank you

[charred willow]

Does anyone know if the astral nerf has been reflected in the daily/weekly raidbot sims :D?

[vale pine]

should be in

but it was so small, it makes no diffrence

[charred willow]

perfect 😄

[vale pine]

also, i would always use nightly (latest) to be sure to get updates the fastest

[charred willow]

yes sir 🫡 thank you fuu 😄

[pliant gyro]

planning to switch to sub, how is sub in m+?

[hollow spear]

Purple

[swift tinsel]

big purple damage

all the fun

we're doing stuff and doing it well

[sick mulch]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[cursive vapor]

very subtle

[sick mulch]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[turbid edge]

So 10 seconds before we plan to use flag, we literally don't do anything? Except builders like shuriken storm or backstab?

[steel horizon]

Can rupture if you need it on the target too

I think so anyway

[turbid edge]

Oh that doesn't count as a finisher?

[steel horizon]

Well wowhead guide says to only stop non maintenance finishers

[vale pine]

yes

[charred willow]

You wont want to use rupture during your big cds

[vale pine]

if rupture does not last through your cooldowns

can refresh it

[hollow spear]

Should have at least 20 seconds when you go into flags

I usually don't care about wasting some cp by refreshing at 15s or so

[gentle knot]

Hey guys, i know its not optimal, but what ability should i macro Signet in as sub? Signet is 2 min cd

[vale pine]

you can macro it to blades

but it is usually better to have trinkets on seperate builds when playing double on use

[south sedge]

whats the order of spells if you have a fresh coup going into a non SB dance with 4 set?

[solemn creek]

St first gcd

[sullen oriole]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vivid cobalt]

i thought it was coup backstab symbols coup strike secret tech in that scenario

with no blades

[pallid inlet]

after not playing sub since df season 3 I feel like I need someone to give a 3 hour dissertation on the spec to get every fine detail of it

[hoary night]

hello, do we want Unyielding Netherprism at full stacks before using it or do we just send it with Shadowblades regardless of stack count?

[pearl token]

Aoe rotation and ST rotation look very similar on wowhead is that normal or im missing something ?

[vivid cobalt]

i think you send it if its at at least 9 but idk for sure

[swift tinsel]

thoughts on sending gildeds on hero track tier slots since I'm only getting myth from vault for the next week or two

[uneven fern]

just how the spec is

[swift tinsel]

I'm on the fence

[fringe island]

guys my backstab isn't turning into shadowstrike automatically in stealth anymore what do I do

[swift tinsel]

it doesn't turn into it

they're separate

[lucid jackal]

It never did that

[rough badger]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

only HO sinister strike and blindside ambush do

for outlaw/sin respectively

[fringe island]

what

I'm certain it did

[swift tinsel]

stealth/dance just enable strike

[sour coral]

#subtlety message

[steel horizon]

No apparently it's still sectec first. We don't care too much about wasting unseen blade in single target outside of blades i guess

[solemn creek]

U would always send with sb unless fight ends. So thats why u see 9

[swift tinsel]

you probably just have them in the same slot on your regular andstealth bars

[solemn creek]

But.. some damage amp/aoe are to be considered

[fringe island]

I'm such a dumbass I got it now

[swift tinsel]

its a relatively common misconception

[hollow spear]

I'd decide based on the slot

[hallow kernel]

hey peeps. trying to learn sub after working on outlaw and sin. im trying to understand the cd situation for keys. if i look at wowhead, sb and flag are used at separate times? and method is saying use them at the same time? im kind of lost of what im supposed to do.

[swift tinsel]

I'm sitting on 120 gilded atm

[vivid cobalt]

def use flag and sb together

[swift tinsel]

so I'm thinking at least legs/chest

[hollow spear]

Didn't you craft/send gilded on vault item?

[swift tinsel]

only have myth belt from vault so far

[vivid cobalt]

with 120 gilded shouldnt you just craft x2 720 gear

[swift tinsel]

rest of my gear is hero or champ

[hollow spear]

Two crafts?

[swift tinsel]

and crafted MH and bracers

[hollow spear]

Okay

What trinkets?

[steel horizon]

Its flag on full cp > finisher > dance symbols blades

[swift tinsel]

Badge and Soleah

[steel horizon]

So flag and sb are not on the same gcd

[swift tinsel]

trinket luck has been garbage

handful of EDA and no lily yet

[solemn creek]

Always sb/flag one after the other. In key u might do a non sb/flag window even tho they are ready if.. i.e a pull wont last long enough. But will still allow u to get double dance on the next pull with sb/flag. Or if big aoe are coming.. etc.. theres lots.of planning to do in m+

[swift tinsel]

could have taken one from vault but didn't seem worth since it was hero

[solemn creek]

Also.. your tank if hes an idiot and doesnt check his group cd

Like pull big when no one has anything.. and shit when everyonr has cd

[hallow kernel]

this spec is gonna fry my brains... lol

[twilit phoenix]

sub is probably the easiest spec in keys

it's super scripted

and it's honestly not that hard

[swift tinsel]

yeah you choose when you send your damage and it actually is quite scripted

[twilit phoenix]

outlaw/sin aoe is much harder

[swift tinsel]

the damage windows, that is

sin aoe is busy af

[solemn creek]

Wtf.. sin is the dumbest thing in key

Aint no way sub is easier

[hallow kernel]

i finally figured out sin lol. outlaw on the other hand i cant do since i can never hit high cpm lol

[swift tinsel]

different strokes

[twilit phoenix]

optimal deathstalker aoe is wayyyy harder than sub

too many optimizations

[swift tinsel]

I find sub significantly easier than either of the others in m+

[twilit phoenix]

you can bleed build, but you're not playing at its full potential

[swift tinsel]

also having to DN evisc first finisher in aoe is fucking annoying

[twilit phoenix]

look at zeross

[solemn creek]

U can know nothing about optimisation and do super well as sin

[hallow kernel]

so for flag full cp for secret tech? or used for evi?

[swift tinsel]

rupture after flag

so you don't have to think about it for your whole cd window

[steel horizon]

On the opener at least

[swift tinsel]

flag -> rupture -> sod/dance/bs -> sectech+blades

learn it, live it, love it

[lone linden]

What’s the correct way to handle the delayed CP refunds from coups? Am I supposed to delay if i know it’s coming

[hallow kernel]

bs?

[swift tinsel]

backstab

[hallow kernel]

ahh ok

[swift tinsel]

used for danse stack and builds full cp with premed talent

[mental kettle]

????

[wild hornet]

absolute abysmal vault

[swift tinsel]

only time we actively add a danse stack vs gain them from abilities we cast normal in dance

[mental kettle]

same

[swift tinsel]

bis shoulders

[wild hornet]

nvm yours is worse

[wild hornet]

might be getting them

im still rocking last season ones

[lucid jackal]

You really dont know what a bad vault looks like

[lilac stag]

Tier chest is banger

[swift tinsel]

sigil good, belt good

[wild hornet]

oh yeah i do

8 hand items

[mental kettle]

sigil sims like dogshit

and belt only good item

[wild hornet]

.....theres still time to pick items for outlaw

[twilit phoenix]

Guy's not playing outlaw till midnight

(based)

[pearl token]

Outside of cds, do we rupture all mob in pack if they survive longer than 12scd ?

[hallow kernel]

so for opener it would be ss > evi > storm > flag> rup> sod/dance/bs > sectech+blades

[wild hornet]

isnt this the old opener

before CTC

[lucid jackal]

no

[hallow kernel]

idk lmao im trying to figure out from method and wowhead

i have been confused going back and forth lol

[wild hornet]

wowhead has the updated one for a while

[swift tinsel]

strike flag rupture

no evisc/storm stuff

[wild hornet]

what he said

eviscerate opener is old

[swift tinsel]

you only evisc vanish etc opener if you have predisorient

[steel horizon]

Ss flag rupture, dance symbols bs, sectec + blades

[haughty mural]

Atleast I got my prism in my vault

Had a myth lily also in it but what can you do

[wild hornet]

how about you give me that lily

[jaunty sparrow]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hallow kernel]

ok let me try this rotation on dummies a bit

[wild hornet]

good idea to do so

[lilac stag]

be waiting for a prism for 15 weeks

[steel horizon]

Man forge + prism is big dopamine

[wild hornet]

house of cards all over again

[lofty skiff]

!spec

[wicked jolt]

All Specs are good and have niches and strengths that they play to. All three specs are looking viable with Assassination/Subtlety being preferred in raids. Mythic+ meta has not solidified yet but Assassination looked promising during beta.

Be aware that Simulations are a tool to be used to compare things like talents/gear/rotations, they are not the definite answer to what is meta or not meta. While outlaw is ahead in sims right now, especially dungeonslice, you have to take a step back and realize these are synthetic/generic situations that we use as a baseline. Dungeonslice has always been a great showing for outlaw simply due to the fight style matching well with the spec. This is not unusual or unheard of.

You can view logs of the raid when it comes out Here, or view the mythic+ run leaderboard Here.

[haughty mural]

Ya 😁

[lofty skiff]

so what spec are people actually playing in m+ as trickster??
All websites shows a different one. are people playing shuriken tornado etc?

[lilac stag]

CN has the best M+ setup imo, but you can run what you want

[haughty mural]

Im happy it is not last Season all over again for me now

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/welcome-to-the-party-gif-4879842

[steel horizon]

Waiting for HoC was so much worse because we had fucking transmitter in the meantime

(non pvp trinket enjoyer) lol

[lofty skiff]

what is CN?

[lilac stag]

China

[hallow kernel]

ok i went from 3 mill to 8.5 mil with just opener alone. and then hard drop to 5 mil lol. but im starting to see now

[wild hornet]

heartbeat playstyle

[steel horizon]

Thats the way the spec plays. Big bursts and low lows

[lilac stag]

basically this in some form

big BP blasting

[haughty mural]

My opener will also be low now

[lofty skiff]

do people prefer thistle tea of cold blood?

[haughty mural]

But I’ll take it

[lilac stag]

that's a you thing

[haughty mural]

If you get a certain level of crit

But it’s close

So what scath said

[lofty skiff]

im new to the spec, what is more benefitial while learning?

[wild hornet]

thistle tea cause you macro it to dance id say

[lofty skiff]

feels hard to manage energy without thistletea

[vivid cobalt]

finality seems good for m+ no

[lilac stag]

you dont use tea for energy

[wild hornet]

ye

u use it for mastery

[lofty skiff]

yes

[wild hornet]

sub has a gcd problem rather than energy problems

[lofty skiff]

but you get VIGOR

in that line

[hallow kernel]

so after opener, i use sod and dance and continue the ss evi until it drops then swap to storm and bp?

[steel horizon]

You're always energy starved outside of cooldowns. It doesn't matter. You don't spam buttons outside of dance

[lofty skiff]

okay

[lilac stag]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[wild hornet]

2 dances, 2 sod, 2 sectecs is what youre trying to fit during flag+sblades

[vivid cobalt]

does the mastery from tea not DR like mastery from stats

[haughty mural]

Scath do you use a big fat aura to show you the stacks ?

[swift tinsel]

its mastery % not rating so it doesn't DR

[limber folio]

whats the backstab macro in dance for opener?

[swift tinsel]

!bs

[lilac stag]

no i made a bandits guile type border

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[limber folio]

ty

[lilac stag]

audio alerts

as wekk

[limber folio]

grumpymurloc trinket WA works nice

[wild hornet]

now time for the real questions
whats the best audio alert

[steel horizon]

Sword ring

[swift tinsel]

sonar, batman punch

[haughty mural]

Im

Maybe I need all of them

Hehe

[swift tinsel]

I have specific ones for specific scenarios

[wild hornet]

not really, put one that covers your entire screen

so you cant see anything but the trinket when its ready

[haughty mural]

Based

[sullen hare]

moan obviously

[runic sinew]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[cursive vapor]

have that on every ability I press

[runic sinew]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hallow kernel]

would it be best to use vanish while flag and blades are on cd to use with dance and symbol?

[spark ridge]

If i dont like using secret technique is it okay to replace it with eviscerate in the rotation priority?

[short radish]

Uses it in between dances for an extra 7 cp or something

Or for mobility if you need it

[hallow kernel]

cools

[patent crystal]

where was the apl for all consumables?

[vale pine]

secret technique is our highest dps finisher

and its easy to use

just use it as first finisher in dance

you can ofc not skill into it

but lets see

[spark ridge]

I am having trouble finding a good keybind for it

[short radish]

Use v

[vale pine]

you can use a modifier

[fallen marsh]

mines on shift 2

[mystic bough]

Mines on e

[spark ridge]

why does this spec have so many random procs and stuff

[mystic bough]

All that matters is that its a comfortable key for ya

[vivid cobalt]

g is the correct bind

[spark ridge]

Is sub the hardest spec in the game

[vale pine]

i would def. reconsider not using secret

[vivid cobalt]

its def up there

[vale pine]

if you want to reduce keys you can use modifiers

[fallen marsh]

meteos shouldent u be posting cat gifs in the druid discord rn?

[vale pine]

e.g. if you use 4 for evis

migth use shift + 4 for bp

[short radish]

Its a hard learning curve but once you figure it out it's super comfy

[vale pine]

if you have slice and dice bound

replace it with secret

[thick field]

in flag windows, if my symbols is about to drop, but i dont have my second sectech up yet, do i let symbols drop to wait until i have sectech?

[crystal bone]

ur 1's look like 7's

[vale pine]

don't need that spell bound

[crystal bone]

[short radish]

Thats exactly what I did

[lethal gale]

Is there a way to calculate at what prism stacks beats out lily? For example 1 more cds usage in boss fight is it worth to press prism at x stacks or send lily

[spark ridge]

its 76.5% of the dps?

[vale pine]

thats how i write them

[steel horizon]

Probably not even factoring in all of the coup's that you lose either, right?

[vale pine]

16,5%

yes

[spark ridge]

i was just reading your guide on wowhead fuu

thats a crazy coincidence

[vale pine]

its just how much damage secret does

[crystal bone]

https://tenor.com/view/just-do-it-just-read-read-reading-is-fundamental-edward-gif-7388662087467009896

[vale pine]

and this is how i draw a cat (in paint, with my mouse, in like 5 sec)

[short radish]

That cat looks more legible than your 1s

[crystal bone]

thats def a mouse

[alpine wraith]

aura farming

[crystal bone]

🐭

[short radish]

[spark ridge]

so in aoe i should track flawless form and change my rotation based on if i have it or not?

[steep cave]

Is Cursed Idol stone tuned up? It's D-tier according to Wowhead but when i sim it it's the best upgrade from this weeks vault. Even greater than going from heroic chest previous tear to heroic chest this tier.

[short radish]

You dont want to press it

[thick field]

in this scenario, my sectech wasn't off cd but my symbols was dropping. so i let symbols drop, evisc, then shadow dance / symbols -> backstab -> sectech.. is this right? that eviscerate is unbuffed by symbols though

[short radish]

Its a channel

[fallen marsh]

its got a cast time so be preped

[short radish]

Its cursed.

[steep cave]

Yeah i read a bunch of comments from others how it sims good but it's a pain to use

[vale pine]

okay, you prefere me using a diffrent notation.
Like roman or japanese ?

[crystal bone]

roman numeral good

[keen dome]

I vote for roman numerals in all notations

[marble mauve]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[autumn anvil]

would think a channel is worse bc lost time during burst but if its best you have it is what it is

[vale pine]

maya numbers would be fun too

[keen dome]

Oooh, yeah

That'd rule

That's my mood

[spark ridge]

does anyone have a good weakaura to track flawless form?

[vale pine]

i just track the buff, you can do so by using a template even

don't think there is much more needed

[thick field]

@vale pine quick question - is that right?

[gilded jungle]

whats the macro for log review?

[vale pine]

its !log

[gilded jungle]

Thank you.

[vale pine]

you can use your 2nd dance back to back there

so you don't need to wait for secret to come off

[thick field]

and hold symbols?

dont i want sectech to be first finisher after symbols for supercharged?

[vale pine]

symbols can be used

if you can secure supercharger on secret

[gilded jungle]

!log

[mystic bough]

We still delay cb to the second sectech in cds even without the old tierset?

[vale pine]

yes

[mystic bough]

Cuz of flag?

[thick field]

are you saying that i should use it if secret is first finisher, but hold otherwise?

[desert bolt]

should I take myth track incorporeal claw or hero track antenna? I have stinky trinkets still 💀

[keen moon]

Should I use Unyielding Netherprism only around 18 stacks? I have it and Lily, so I use Lily for my first CDs (to collect stacks), then just Unyielding with around 10 stacks every 1min 30 sec . Or should i wait for ~18 stacks every 3 minutes?

[spark ridge]

so the guide says to use 2 secret techniques during shadow blades but the cd is 54 sec and only 1 charge I don’t understand how that’s possible

[autumn anvil]

cdr through finishers

[steel horizon]

because the 2nd sectec benefits from more flawless form stacks

[marble mauve]

Whats the sim difference between an m+ build with darkbrew+chaos brand and an m+ build w/o darkrbrew or chaosbrand?

[pearl token]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vivid cobalt]

its kind of rare that you can do this

[buoyant ridge]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[cursive vapor]

if you press the right buttons, like in the guide, like the burst has to be...youll see how possible that is

[spark ridge]

Oh I see

[ripe flame]

feeling kinda maya seven today

[spark ridge]

can I macro secret technique and eviscerate?

[steel horizon]

its not rare. just have to make sure you're doing the optimal rotation

[autumn anvil]

without forced downtime you'll hit two in blade window no problem

[hazy breach]

2 during blades is not rare, thats the standard

Its the 3 during flag thats rare

[cursive vapor]

if 2 is rare then the problem is sitting in front of the pc

[vale pine]

because of flawless form stacks, you have more damage amps during your 2nd dance

[mystic bough]

Never really used them seperate, how much can I use cb outside of my major cds? or do we just ignore cb until we have cds again

[wraith sphinx]

no

[hazy breach]

Just ignore

[spark ridge]

sub might be the most complicated spec I’ve ever seen

[round nimbus]

the sub opener breaks my Assa brain

[wind portal]

I know this has been asked a million times... buuuut, why not macro cold blood with secret techniques?

[hazy breach]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[hazy breach]

You can have it macroed, but you'd want a seperate bind without cb too

[dry harness]

is there best way to use Unyielding Netherprism

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[vale pine]

!cbug if you play assassiantion too, this might be relevant

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[lilac stag]

Hit em with the KPBx2

[old mica]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[spark ridge]

Do you recommend your weakauras over luxthos?

[vale pine]

i think you should just try what works out for you

i use my weakaura set, but its more minimalistic and i know everyone has diffrent preferences

[lilac stag]

ui is super personal

[mystic bough]

Thanks guys

[vale pine]

the best wa/ui is always a frankenstein from parts you like of other weakuara sets

[mystic bough]

Now to not forgetting I don't have cb macro'd 👀

[swift tinsel]

That’s how mine ended up the way it is, plus making my own and setting conditions up is how I learn spec interactions better

Turns a flowchart into handy pings and glows/borders

[round nimbus]

i use the LuckyoneUI works well for me

[dire spoke]

why are we getting baited by meteos LOL