subtlety

[dusk stone]

its +94 per 15 crests

[swift tinsel]

Tier leg slot will never get replaced, lily will

At myth

[pastel bramble]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GqRDLvC4zfFwcTMA?fight=49&type=casts&view=timeline&source=197
pls someone help me

[shrewd lantern]

the thing is tier legs have multiple sources

[high eagle]

im takin legs and making it final. thanks for talking me through my decision rogue friends

[high eagle]

there are but, whatever. it is done and over

[dusk stone]

so lilly is effectively like 600 increase in mastery for 15 seconds at max track

[swift tinsel]

I can’t imagine myth lily beats heroic prism

[shrewd lantern]

why is bro playing sub with a 2min trinket

[dusk stone]

not counting the passive amount it gives you

[shrewd lantern]

[swift tinsel]

And if it does I can’t imagine it’s by much

[pastel bramble]

i dont have any other

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah lily needs a buff if anything

[dusk stone]

lily kinda bad

[shrewd lantern]

get a pvp badge

idk

2min for sub is bad bad

[dusk stone]

166 increase for the passive agi

[swift tinsel]

Iirc it’s 3% behind prism at 723 for both

[dusk stone]

but you get that on any passive trinket

[high eagle]

the benefit of picking myth legs too is I haven't started grinding pvp yet and thats one less thing today I have to worry about as I start my blitz and shuffle journey

[shrewd lantern]

prism is ahead of lily for me by like 90k

at equal ilvl

[pastel bramble]

have incorporeal and sack of terror

[shrewd lantern]

idk playing sub without an on use

farm a lily if you dont raid

[dusk stone]

that yeah

[swift tinsel]

I’ve actually yet to see a lily drop

[dusk stone]

pacemaker and lilly is fine, just prism is very strong

[pale aurora]

Why is the sub more viable than the assa?

[plush roost]

Assa is hella bugged rn and raid fights design favor sub cds

[pale aurora]

Ty

[shrewd lantern]

its going to be less so the case

for the average ce guilds

when extra ilvl and aura buffs come in

but yeah

[dusk stone]

idk

[plush roost]

Yeah when timings get krangled sub will be worse

[dusk stone]

damage amps are subs things

[high eagle]

I don't know if it REALLY is outside of top guilds.

[solemn creek]

When do we send prism in the big burst sequence(assuminh 18 stack) ? With flag ? Or with sb like other trinket

[shrewd lantern]

you will have less damage amp phases

when shit just melts

[dusk stone]

sub was actually giga strong on 1st boss motherlode, right up there with arcane, we get so much inherent value from them

well some said at start of tier damage amps were not going to make sub relevant

and then we S tier so

[high eagle]

sub = fun. thats the real answer!

[steel zinc]

if sub wasnt so dog on pure st id just play that on fractilus

but assa is pure gamba

[plush roost]

Fractillus is pure gamba

[shrewd lantern]

alot of people i feel also just miss

forge and prism are contributing a large amount

[dusk stone]

fatebound is what is actually really strong in raid

[shrewd lantern]

if you had 2 piss on uses like lily and priory

[dusk stone]

whats bugged for sin atm?

[shrewd lantern]

caustic doesnt singular

[swift tinsel]

spatter doesn't tranfser

[shrewd lantern]

the entire fatebound tier cdr

[plush roost]

Check assa channel pins

[swift tinsel]

ye whispyr made a whole bug video

ours would be a few hours long lol

[alpine wraith]

maybe i do another one

[shrewd lantern]

so i take it replicating just aint good in raid anymore

btw

[alpine wraith]

i did it on df

[shrewd lantern]

s2 it was better even on st wasnt it

[crimson jasper]

Howcome in the sub FAQ on wowhead, for boss recommended builds, soul hunters recommends thistle tea over cold blood, while Soulbinder, Nexusking, and Dimensius all use coldblood

[dusk stone]

damage amp prolly

also multi target fight

[steel zinc]

idk fight is still cringe imo. Not hard just cringe.

[shrewd lantern]

Oh yeah just checked, both the 1/2 finality and replicating points got swapped this tier.

[steel zinc]

The fight was just made to showcase the power of weak auras

[steel zinc]

tier doesnt work with finality correctly

[shrewd lantern]

lmao wtf

[steel zinc]

thats why its losing value compared to s2

[shrewd lantern]

i was like, why is pe suddenly good

well pe/imp sht

are the two

[warm marlin]

well technically finality probably wasn't even that great last tier

the finality bug wasn't implemented until s3

[shrewd lantern]

neither is pe really?

I was just curious if those points all just kinda of sucked in general

[hazy breach]

It was still a bit ahead last i checked, but ye not by much

But finality got worse because we coup more

[shrewd lantern]

wasnt replicating only taken on st because nothing else simmed higher

for the single point

[hazy breach]

Yes

But now we have 2 points as finality isnt that good

And then we can take PE

because PE is effectively a 2 point talent

[shrewd lantern]

im assuming most people just keep imp storm

because sf isnt that big

[hazy breach]

Sim literally cant tell if youre using SF or not

[shrewd lantern]

Oh

[hazy breach]

Its so inconsequential

[shrewd lantern]

it's THAT BAD

[steel zinc]

shadow focus is w/e

its 5%

[warm marlin]

I still cope that SF is better than sims suggest

because of feint

[hazy breach]

Were talking 1 or 1½ backstabs per 5 min

[steel zinc]

5% is nothing

[shrewd lantern]

[steel zinc]

if it was like 25% or 50%

that would be an actual talent

[shrewd lantern]

yeh just funny how many piss choices sub seems to have

wm vs tfd

[steel zinc]

tfd is bis idk

wm is also just not impactful

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk i've never liked wm

in its existence

[steel zinc]

their are some talents like speedshroud that have more impact then some "dmg" nodes

[dusk stone]

SF?

[swift tinsel]

shadow focus

5% energy reduction in dance

the time we never need energy reduction lol

[dusk stone]

yeah

i was in halls last night accidentally on CB

i swear in some of my dances it felt like i needed energy

[shrewd lantern]

idk im not sold on tea/tornado builds

shit feels cheeks

[swift tinsel]

I literally never noticed the energy from tea when I was trying it out

[hazy breach]

Its not nado+tea

Theyre seperate choices

[lucid jackal]

If u just play the raid build, except with rotten, TFD, and Replicating idk how u need energy

[steel zinc]

I wont play nado

nado is so bad for the flow of the spec

[swift tinsel]

with inev + imp sht you're swimming in energy

[shrewd lantern]

im also kind of cooked and just realized they reworked pv

[steel zinc]

makes me do less dps also skill issue

[shrewd lantern]

at some time this expansion

[dusk stone]

yeah im not sure if i was just noticing 1st gcd after symbols or w/e ended or what

[steel zinc]

tea is really nice in aoe

[dusk stone]

i felt starved though

[hazy breach]

PV is slightly better than shadow focus, but not by much

[shrewd lantern]

the builds i saw taking pv opt out of inev

which sounds....

idk

[hazy breach]

Well its for pathing

[dusk stone]

tornado would be nice if it didnt cost us a talent point

[swift tinsel]

ye we're stuck with pv bc its in a better spot

[shrewd lantern]

more the prospect of dropping inev

[swift tinsel]

reallllly wish they'd delete pv and put inev in its slot

[steel zinc]

This imo best "flowing" build. PV is also not good imo

[swift tinsel]

its prime real estate for such a shit talent

[shrewd lantern]

lingering aint much better

[eager patrol]

uhm is it normal

[swift tinsel]

nah lingering doesn't fit anymore

[hazy breach]

Lingering slamdunks on PV

Its significantly better

[dusk stone]

what i dont understand is why we have dead talents like SF, PV and etc

[eager patrol]

that my entire group got dced after clearing dawnbreaker +10

[dusk stone]

like they are so bad for stuff near capstones

[eager patrol]

and now I cant loot the chest?

[shrewd lantern]

Idk sub just has alot of straight buttcheeks talents

[swift tinsel]

bc they didn't finish our rework

[shrewd lantern]

imo

[hazy breach]

Its like 1.5% dps instead of like 0.2%

[dusk stone]

when are we taking lingering?

[shrewd lantern]

last time we took it

was df?

pre rework

[kind bluff]

Pv is so bad though. Im amazed finality doesn't beat it even with more coups

[hazy breach]

Never, but we would never take PV either if it swapped places

[swift tinsel]

finality doesn't buff coup properly

[kind bluff]

I know

[swift tinsel]

and with more coups, that makes it worse

[hazy breach]

Finality is a decent talent, its like 2.5% or so

[shrewd lantern]

yeah makes me question why some key builds go 2/2 finality

[swift tinsel]

ye I run 1/2 finality in keys over rotten

[hazy breach]

PV again, is like 0.2% in full ST, where its the best

In aoe it does nothing

[dusk stone]

i dislike non TR builds in keys because it takes away from prio

[shrewd lantern]

Don't worry we have goremaw

[dusk stone]

it becomes optimal to swap targets for FW

[shrewd lantern]

which has a 0% pickrate

[dusk stone]

like if FW isn't on everything, you need to strike a new target each gcd

[swift tinsel]

I have relatively high crit so idc as much about rotten/fw

[karmic harbor]

is netherprism / araz's the optimal trinket setup?

[shrewd lantern]

I just like the sheer gap in usefulness between sub's capstones.

[hazy breach]

Prism + antenna/forge

[dusk stone]

crit is like 8%

[swift tinsel]

spreading fw with strike sounds annoying

[shrewd lantern]

Arent you supposed to storm for fw

with rotten

[dusk stone]

yes but its what would be optimal if you can't effectively or haven't spread FW

[steel zinc]

forge is better then antenna

[swift tinsel]

idk I usually have 6-8 out naturally from storming pre-cds

[steel zinc]

Antenna is sim bait and keeping uptime on it is kinda cringe

[dusk stone]

FW lasts 10 seconds doesn't it?

[swift tinsel]

yep

[dusk stone]

your cds are twice that long

[swift tinsel]

I'm aware

[hazy breach]

Nah

even if you change it to miss tons

[shrewd lantern]

Wait i forget what happens if you're nimbling and your off targets dont have fw

[hazy breach]

Its still really good

[swift tinsel]

fw isn't as required for BP damage as it was pre-11.2

[shrewd lantern]

is nimble damage based off your main target having fw

[swift tinsel]

bc it got its own 11% buff

[dusk stone]

does it have no interaction or something?

[swift tinsel]

you needed fw as a crutch for bp pre-buff

less so now

[hazy breach]

You dont really want to storm in dance unless its to preserve your unseen blade stacks getting wasted

[dusk stone]

so its still more though

[hazy breach]

But that storm should cover it

[swift tinsel]

you start bp on 3 targets now instead of 5

[terse wolf]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[swift tinsel]

meaning fw is less required than it was to justify bping

[dusk stone]

sure

but if its more damage im gonna do it

[swift tinsel]

okay then

no one's stopping you

I'm saying why I don't run rotten

[dusk stone]

finality is cool to me but pain in the ass to me ig

[paper surge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[dusk stone]

also eleem, how is sim coded to run, spread FW on finality build via strikes or no

[shadow lance]

No

[west tide]

guys i feel like im doin something wrong in full st

i cant predict my procs im like eatin so many combo points

[hazy breach]

Using storm to spread FW is not good in sims

[blissful scroll]

Anybody able to help with a vault question?
The ring sims at the highest (Crit/Haste) but I read that it's beneficial as Sub in M+ where you can Stack Araz and Prism for your Shadowblade CDs.

I have a Cat charge I could use on the pants, but was hoping to hold that for a Helmet since I have the 4pc Already & a backup pair of gloves.

[west tide]

ill send another generator and ill get a trigger but i dont want to wait longer than a gcd in my dance

[hazy breach]

You spread it via the storm for coup

Otherwise just tank not having fw on all

Strike+unseen blade just does too much damage

[tacit maple]

after 4p, is fazed and flawless form just 100% uptime?

[paper surge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

with finality build it becomes optimal to spread FW via strikes right because it's not always up right?

[shadow lance]

Track your sht stacks

[dusk stone]

i was asking if sim does that or not

[shadow lance]

Sim doesn't

[dusk stone]

so its actually undersimming then?

[west tide]

i have them tracked

[shadow lance]

Cuz nobody would do it in real condition

[dusk stone]

why not?

[shadow lance]

Just don't press builder if you got 7 stacks or more then

[west tide]

but in shadowdance that feels wrong

do we just ignore them

and just munch combo points

[shadow lance]

No

[west tide]

cause we want to make sure we get all our gcds in right?

[hazy breach]

No

[shadow lance]

Just if you press a finisher and if you got 7 stack, just press another finisher

[west tide]

i see ok

[honest yacht]

I would go forge. Don't want haste.

[dusk stone]

yeah i don't understand how thats related?

[hazy breach]

Youre asking when to storm

[dusk stone]

im not insinuating we should press storm more

[swift tinsel]

I think he's talking about tab-targeting strikes to spread FW

[shadow lance]

Because FW should be up by spreading Ruptures / between cds windows and tabbing to shadowstrike is the best way to miss a gcd cuz target away

[rustic mortar]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

well it only lasts 10 seeconds is the thing

[shadow lance]

He didn't ^^

[hazy breach]

Youre not gonna really get fw up on 4 or more targets reliably anyway

So its not really a BP angle

[shadow lance]

But he doesn't trust my explanations

[swift tinsel]

or mine

[shadow lance]

Tell him Eleem

[dusk stone]

nah i get it, not worth losing prio, pain in the ass etc

[shadow lance]

You got a green name, he'll listen to you

[shadow lance]

You also can take the shadowcraft wa a bit above, it will do a sound when you go a refund

Doesn't work well with Coup cuz sometimes, coup refound late

That's why I track sht in my wa

[late ermine]

symbols is used pretty much to supercharge sec tech yeah

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[late ermine]

is there a reason to not macro them

[swift tinsel]

thats pretty much exclusively what you're using it for

[late ermine]

[shadow lance]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

bc you don't always supercharge it as the first finisher

[orchid nest]

does the delv belt get replaced by heroic? or only mythic

[swift tinsel]

sometimes you supercharge an evisc first if sectech is on cd

[shadow lance]

Sim

[swift tinsel]

to bring it off cooldown to be able to supercharge with 2nd cp

[shrewd lantern]

mfw i need to wait till i get home

[swift tinsel]

if its max level disc belt probs mythic

[shrewd lantern]

because armory lookup has a delve belt with no powers

[orchid nest]

alright thank you

[swift tinsel]

for me its like 707-710ish belt replaces it

[hazy breach]

Around 710 is when the belt is getting replaced

[swift tinsel]

which I might have to take from vault

bc the rest are ass

[hazy breach]

So maybe maxed hc but moreso mythic

[swift tinsel]

so many haste boots

and still prism waiting room

call it a Guy vault

[shadow lance]

Mine gonna be for tomorow

Good night lads

[swift tinsel]

later tater

[vestal escarp]

missed kill on forgeweaver

we're so chopped

[dusk stone]

i got myth legs myself at least its a break from bad vault luck

[vestal escarp]

[swift tinsel]

got this bad boy waiting for me

[alpine wraith]

big

[dusk stone]

oh im a liar, my legs got leech on them

[swift tinsel]

hc lily to replace pvp badge if I don't get prism from raid

[dusk stone]

was good luck for once

[swift tinsel]

but probs taking belt and just waiting for lily to drop

wish that leech was speed

would put me at almost 10% lol

[dusk stone]

oh cringe you got the wrong raid wring

[swift tinsel]

yep

omega ass amirite

[dusk stone]

i got so fucked on my rings this tier too

[swift tinsel]

I've seen zero hero rings drop

[dusk stone]

maddening, 20 runs only for my teammate to get it 3x b2b2b

[swift tinsel]

probs crafting one next week if luck continues

[lilac stag]

Um. There was supposed to be a prism in there

[swift tinsel]

yeah the manifesting malfunctioned bc I'm supposed to get it in raid tonight

or something like that

maybe I didn't charge my crystals properly

[dusk stone]

how much of an upgrade is heroic prism

[lilac stag]

[swift tinsel]

for me its big bc pvp trinket atm

but we've only seen one normal one drop and zero hc

our raid drops have been nuclear ass

[dusk stone]

my luck has not been bad but given how things work i will never see HCprism

[west tide]

i chose mythic antenna over heroic prism in my vault today

[swift tinsel]

only raid drop I've gotten so far is hc loom shoulders

[west tide]

i may regret it if it doesnt drop tonigt...

[dusk stone]

we had zero antenna drops from loom

no forge either

[west tide]

we had 2 drop mythic

[swift tinsel]

I think we might have had one normal antenna

[west tide]

and so many in vault

[swift tinsel]

haven'tgotten to mythic yet

[next otter]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[dusk stone]

how reliable is pacemaker to upkeep the stat it gives

pretty reliable?

[swift tinsel]

with modest crit it should be easy to get full value

[dusk stone]

what is considered modest, like 20%?

[winged widget]

is there a way to sim certain fights? im ST assassination normally. trying to learn sub as its supposed to be better in raid for the cleave fights, but im just not sure im simming it right

[dusk stone]

apparently these are bis

[glacial rampart]

does this look like a normal breakdown for sub in a halls 10?
Everytime i play sub it feels... wrong? or that I'm not playing it right or im misunderstanding the priorities...

[west tide]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

we cant really tell you much from that, or at least i cant

what was overall

[steel zinc]

I dont have that much bp. But I also just blast into the prio target

[glacial rampart]

697

[dusk stone]

yeah thats low

[glacial rampart]

was going off fuu's stuff that's bp over what 4 targets?

[fickle mason]

how can i fix this secret technique macro i logged out and in still not working

[warm marlin]

shadow blades is maybe a bit low

[wispy jasper]

Do sub rogues sim M+ using dungeon slice?

[warm marlin]

and storm also a bit high

[steel zinc]

that is just very general

[dusk stone]

i was 6.5 on halls 12 w/o the buff from affix last night

[steel zinc]

you want to hit a prio target in halls so the shards with evis

[warm marlin]

maybe not executing dance windows properly

[serene notch]

Has everyone just been lucky with trinkets? I feel like I’m the only person running HoC…..a heroic one T_T

[steel zinc]

also could be million other things

[glacial rampart]

yea, sin kinda just clicks for me, and sub used to before the hero talents lol

[dusk stone]

what is it you feel thats wrong with what you're doing?

[steel zinc]

go lfr to get any trinkets. Sub needs 4p, dagger, and prism to come online. Until then you dont do much dmg. Maybe prism not needed that much

[serene notch]

Solid advice

[west tide]

when it says stop using finishers 10 seconds before flag its sometimes a lil awkward with rupture falling off soon or like wanting to set it up right before in pandemic for the flag window

[dusk stone]

its weird to me prism is as strong as it is but barely sims higher than lilly and maker

[west tide]

what do yall do

[dusk stone]

BP is an option

[steel zinc]

that also highly depends on what your doing. On pure st yes in aoe no

[hazy breach]

Just chill

[tropic nimbus]

looks like they fixed CB from switching from sin

[hazy breach]

Well you wouldnt stop using finishers in aoe anyway

[steel zinc]

for NA I guess with the reset?

[tropic nimbus]

i just switched hit my macro and it work

[steel zinc]

In aoe you just storm bp away if everything has rupture on it outside cds

[warm marlin]

doesnt work for me

[paper surge]

if im playing correctly, how many dances and symbols should i get in before big cd's come back up?

lets say on a patchwork

[boreal sierra]

you should have 2 charges of each before using cds

[paper surge]

cuz i know the fight can change things

[dusk stone]

how would i go about making seperate macro for cb and sectec? like if i wanted shift 5 to cb and then sectec

[steel zinc]

you can use a quicksim and go from their

that should give you enough to work on

[paper surge]

good idea, didnt think of that lol

thanks!

[steel zinc]

Depends highly on your unseenblade proccs

[west tide]

i might be misunderstnading so stop using finishers and stop generating cause it clears my sht stacks whenever i generate to max cp

[steel zinc]

@hazy breach When do you ritual forge? Like in Dragonflight with Ashes right before sectech?

[hazy breach]

If you are at full cp you dont lose any sht stacks

No with blades like any other trinket

[west tide]

i see ok

[steel zinc]

Thats not a loss? Seen perfecto do it during the race

[hazy breach]

Seen him do what

[tame imp]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Hold it for the second sectech?

[kindred arrow]

sorry to ask this but, how do I use netherprism trinket

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[steel zinc]

no first

[hazy breach]

But thats with blades

[tame imp]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[steel zinc]

yeah true I am cooked

ty

[wispy jasper]

When simming for M+, do Sub rogues use Dungeon Slice or Patchwerk w/ 3/5 bosses?

[swift tinsel]

dslice

[wispy jasper]

ty

[limpid gull]

how often should i press prism? just every shadow blades regardless of stacks?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[inland galleon]

is the wowhead m+ buiild the go to? i noticed no cold blood this season?

[tribal blade]

do i take this from vault

[regal rose]

do we use shiv i see im talented in it?

when do we use shiv ?

[alpine wraith]

if a mob is enraged

[dusk stone]

you only talent into shiv if theres a soothe you need to do

[chrome palm]

bait used to be believable

[tribal blade]

i got giga lucky 🙂

[dusk stone]

wdym there's no speed on that trinket

[swift tinsel]

avoidance

become even more unkillable

[dusk stone]

whomever said to use modifer for sectec button for cb was a genius

[wispy jasper]

What's the reason behind using shuriken storm between CDG casts w/ 4 piece

for find weakness?

[dusk stone]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[regal rose]

the thing said above is it a big dps loss if u do it wrong

with ss before coup

[wispy jasper]

ty

[dusk stone]

well there's no reason you're not going to do it

because you need to build CP regardless unless sht

[regal rose]

so just ss before coup on aoe ? and single target

[zenith hollow]

cold blood from swapping fatebound still bugged?

[dusk stone]

The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

if you have 4 unseen blade procs, you get coup, if you have coup you can't store unseen blade procs

[ornate heron]

can you leave hardmode in the middle of the run and finish it later?

[dusk stone]

you do it during blades because you get full CP, and then also in AoE

[ornate heron]

or does it have to all be complete at once?

[dusk stone]

i think you just strike if its not in blades in ST

[crimson jasper]

hmm, anyone elses coldblood macros stop working? it looks fine, but its not casting cold blood

[fiery pewter]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[crimson jasper]

it literally used to work, ive changed nothing

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[crimson jasper]

oh ok thank you

thats really annoying

[dusk stone]

i was having issues last week seperate from the fatebound cb bug

[steel zinc]

its imo sim bait and kinda bad on the last two on mythic

[balmy bear]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[bitter halo]

Is it essential to apply rupture to as many mobs as possible in m+ on packs you will use burst damage or only on packs when CDs are off?

[lilac stag]

its still broken

it doesnt always brick

[white cove]

is double on-use without netherprism any good? Have araz and lily

[dense wraith]

684 GS with 2pc, what damage should I be doing on single target?

[lilac stag]

run a sim

use the training dummy encounter

see if you can hit that

[late bobcat]

are there any good video guides for Sub - the wowhead guide is very difficult for me to understand

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lilac stag]

sub gameplay in a nutshell

[gloomy slate]

im taking neck right? dagger drops from lumithar

[lilac stag]

youre crafting neck, ring or bracers so

[gloomy slate]

alrdy did, but sim doesnt account for loot rng/ease of access

[lilac stag]

its really easy to craft a neck

[gloomy slate]

momma neck is lottery

but doesnt have crit for sin

flexibility

[lilac stag]

then craft a neck and take the dagger lol

you're assuming the dagger will drop

very bold for many rogues in here

[last marten]

yo does offhand matter for our damage ?

[short radish]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[short radish]

only that you use a dagger

[slate lantern]

Hachadino has some vids

[hazy breach]

Not really no, as long as you use a dagger its fine

[short radish]

didnt see a mythic dagger from richard reverb until the 6th kill

[covert storm]

anyone know how to combine the different sectec hits in details into 1?

[lucid jackal]

Does it not normally?

[covert storm]

na it shows all 3 hits as different damage instances

which they are ofc

[hazy breach]

Theres an option somewhere to combine similar spells

[covert storm]

but i wanna be able to see the total damage per button press

[turbid edge]

Which abilities are good to macro together?

I think a long time ago I did shadow dance and shadow strike and then symbols with something else

[lilac stag]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[swift tinsel]

we did it team

[lilac stag]

gz

[swift tinsel]

tyty

[civic lake]

are we just macroing netherprisim still?

[orchid rampart]

during my burst window using blades and flag on a AoE pull 5+ whats my go to finisher?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[lilac stag]

did you check any of the guides? it's outlined there

[kind river]

I definitely gotta practice the aoe situations and real scenarios but sub isn't feeling bad when I practiced ST stuff

the flow makes sense

need to do longer pulls probably so I will remember to not spend 10s before flag

[short radish]

yeah sub is largly a lot of muscle memory

and resisting the urge to press buttons

[balmy bear]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

20 for keys, 30 for raid

[rapid stream]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[fallen depot]

can someone explain when to evis in aoe oppsed to black powder

[patent zenith]

!mistake

[fallen depot]

i coulda sworn guides said like +4 targets

but doesnt nimble hit 7?

[kind river]

30? jesus lol

[bleak night]

yes but black powder is just stronger at 4+

can still evis for prio of course, thats the right play sometimes

but raw aoe bp wins

[fallen depot]

just looking at some keys

and BP was just my highest dps

but seeing other peoples its nimble

[lucid jackal]

Just as soon as u get ressed just press symbols

get in the habbit of it

thats all

[turbid edge]

Ty!

[mental saffron]

There are still no way to track Thousand Cuts procs right?

[distant mist]

Hey, I'm new to the sub... which offensive cooldown should I hold onto to line up with the others for a strong add pull?

btw im assasin but i feel sick when i need do ST

[pulsar hemlock]

[acoustic matrix]

Is Araz good for sub ?

Didn't sim too high for me

[swift tinsel]

nope

[mental saffron]

Nice to have a tier set that plays around untrackable proc

[acoustic matrix]

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/rogue/subtlety/rotation-cooldowns-pve-dps#optimizations

[swift tinsel]

it is if you pair with prism

[pulsar hemlock]

Which I have

[acoustic matrix]

Prism is a 7.5% upgrade for me lol

[swift tinsel]

[acoustic matrix]

And I have Mastery Delve trinket and Pacemaker 710

That trinket is insane

[swift tinsel]

you'd ideally have a 1.5min on-use if you don't have prism+forge

or prism+passive

[acoustic matrix]

Right now my highest simming on use is Signet which sucks but I run it anyway

[swift tinsel]

otherwise with just a 2min on-use you're only getting to empower every other cd window

[acoustic matrix]

yeah that's it

But surprisingly enough that's an upgrade over pacemaker

[rapid stream]

guys, my secret technique + cold blood isn't working in sub, work with all other spec, is someone with the same issue?

[barren wren]

do stacks on prism reset with the pull ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[acoustic matrix]

You mean your macro ?

[hazy breach]

When you pull a raid boss or start a key the stacks reset

[rapid stream]

yeah

[lucid jackal]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[barren wren]

tyvm

[rapid stream]

thanks

[dusk stone]

for saving dances/symbols yes

[wispy jasper]

Trying to make sure I understand.. If Flawless Form is up and I'm outside of cooldown windows, I use evisc as my main finisher assuming sectec and rupture are on cd/maintained, no matter the target count? I only use black powder during SD?

[dusk stone]

no

bp on 4 targets without FW bp on 3 targets with FW

[spring elm]

how much of a % dps increase is the 4set optimization with shuriken storm

[swift tinsel]

you use bp on 4+ targets

and don't worry about flawless form outside of dance

you're basically storming and maintaining rupture on targets that live ~10+ seconds and bp when they're good

[pearl swan]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[turbid edge]

Anyone recommend a sub guide video? Did fuu make one? I think shin made one but it was 2 months ago

[novel vector]

how come ppl holding their CDs here on this boss

forgeweaver

[hazy breach]

The damage amp happens at ~3:30

So you dont want to be using your cds at 3:00

So then you dont need to be using your cds at 1:30 either

Which means you can delay your first set of cds to be able to kill adds at ~30 seconds

[novel vector]

should i at least do a dance window

[hazy breach]

Yes

[fringe lava]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[kind river]

oh I meant not spending combo points

[left ledge]

for forge/prism

do we do prism on open or forge

[bleak night]

please fot eh love of fuck can they fix this cold blood bug

also forge

forge>prism>forge>prism

[zealous basin]

Whats the website ?

[hazy breach]

Lorrgs.io

[fallen marsh]

!teir

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[dusk stone]

well so far pugging experience for 13's has been rough

[rocky sparrow]

Guys double on use is the way?

with ritualforge and prism?

[hazy breach]

Or prism+antenna

Either is fine

[rocky sparrow]

not sure if to get ritualforge, it sims less than lily but idk if im doing something really wrong

[prime ice]

Would we want to send prism on every cd set or every other or is fight dependant?

[hazy breach]

!prism

[dusk stone]

prism pacemaker isn't bad as well

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Its a trinket you should be using with your Shadow Blades, using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.

[dusk stone]

its like 1.5% behind in sims afaik

[versed swift]

hey guys in raid we still BP at 4+ right ?

[lucid jackal]

You should sim antenna uptime at 35% miss btw

30%-35%

[rocky sparrow]

its just that im rlly not sure if to ask for it if it drops in hc reclear tonight. The ritualforge

[dusk stone]

check what iamexile was using in raid

he was doing big dam where it mattered so use what he did

[hazy breach]

35% miss is excessive but yes you can miss some of them

[dusk stone]

is 35% counting you trying to get them or what

[lucid jackal]

I was looking at our guilds logs on nexus king

We had anywhere from 30-35%

But thats with ppl likely paying 0 attention to it

[dusk stone]

i see, so it sims best with zero effort and is just better if you do then

[lucid jackal]

at like 30-35% forge ends up just better

[hazy breach]

Not really by much

Since its a long fight

[lucid jackal]

But again, thats zero gaming around dances, thats zero attention paying to missing it

[hazy breach]

Its still equal at 8 minutes with 30% miss last i checked

[dusk stone]

i am suppose to forge and prism for raid?

[lucid jackal]

For mythic, yeh

At least for the last 2

[warm marlin]

just be better

and get 120% of orbs

[hazy breach]

Ye ive seen that too

[dusk stone]

ig depending on procs it would be good to set it up while your the last 10 seconds before cds

crit modifier for this game is just flat 2x?

[warm marlin]

by default but a lot of things change it

[lucid jackal]

DH has a talent that converts X% of chance to damage

Also this gem

[warm marlin]

your primary stat gem slightly changes it, talents in the trickster tree

lethality in class tree

[dusk stone]

also is tool tip in character sheet accurate for crit and adjusting with abilities or no

[hazy breach]

Not sure what youre asking exactly but the answer is almost surely no because tooltips are famously horrible in wow

[dusk stone]

is there anyway to actually track your critical strike chance that is accurate is a better question ig

[warm marlin]

crit chance in your character sheet will update with buffs and such

but it wont be accurate for many abilities that have individual crit change modifiers

[dusk stone]

you sure? i swear i switched to PE and hit symbols and nada

[warm marlin]

oh PE wont do it

but stuff like antenna will

[hazy breach]

Ye because PE only works on rogue stuff

[dusk stone]

so what stuff is tracked, only rogue things?

[hazy breach]

So its not going onto the character sheet which affects everything

[warm marlin]

unlike dh, where crit from abilities does affect everything

[dusk stone]

i just read the thing and 8% crit feels low for how much i see stuff crit in details

42% there 50% here etc

[warm marlin]

8% is probably the bonus you have from gear, you should have something like 12% baseline

[abstract dock]

anyone else's cold blood secret technique macro broken? it doesn't light up for me

[warm marlin]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[abstract dock]

ah okay ty

[dusk stone]

thanks i was wondering that

[abstract dock]

small indie company

[dusk stone]

20ish sounds more accurate and then ability modifiers

[warm marlin]

and then stuff like imp backstab and storm give crit bonuses to their individual spells, deadly precision, no scruples, proc from council guile/antenna, etc.

PE

[dusk stone]

40% crit on BP

[twilit phoenix]

another reason not to play sin

[warm marlin]

no scruples is big for that

[chrome palm]

[dusk stone]

the loot on last 2 bosses feels kinda meh to me, but i think its actually better than kezan locked behind gally

[slate lantern]

slacks

[chrome palm]

amazing lowroll

[warm marlin]

rate the juice

[twilit phoenix]

holy based

bro is juiced to the gills

[slate lantern]

Champion mega medallion? Not v mega bro

[twilit phoenix]

hero nether and myth antenna

bro is fully jelqed

[plush roost]

man

The prism is MIA again

its so

over

4 drops on my DH

[warm marlin]

i did 90 keys week1

you can't make me go back

[jagged rover]

woo rank 1 sub on heroic fractilius. Just get perfect kill timing

[brazen cave]

I know 2 daggers is ideal for Sub, how much of a dps loss is a sword in the offhand?

[twilit phoenix]

kinda sick to see casual pushing on sub

[twilit phoenix]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[brazen cave]

ty

[twilit phoenix]

it's bad enough to where it's not worth it

[warm marlin]

a green dagger from the ah is better than a mythic slow offhand

[twilit phoenix]

you'll be losing damage even if your OH dagger is like 50 ilvls below

[noble shale]

any reason i cant macro cold blood and st together?

[twilit phoenix]

you don't want to send coldblood with just any ST

you wanna CB the 2nd ST in your 90 sec window

[jagged rover]

I have a macro with both of them but its a separate bind from my regular sectec. Makes it easy to use it on the 2nd sectec of your cd window

[noble shale]

gotcha

[twilit phoenix]

ya that's cool if that works for you

[noble shale]

subs feeling a lot more hectic then assis lol

[jagged rover]

its definitely faster inside its cd windows, but theres less stuff to worry about outside of them

[twilit phoenix]

it's a bit more fast paced in cds like izzi said

but it's pretty scripted, so you're not improvising a lot

i will say, sin aoe is probably harder than sub ngl

[jagged rover]

I think sin aoe is harder than sub in general, yeah. I struggle with it on really big pulls, but I'm also probably overthinking it

[noble shale]

ahh ok havent even looked at aoe

will probs stick with sin for M+ wanted to try sub for raids

[jagged rover]

I think sub is super chill in M+

its your single target rotation, just sometimes you hit black powder instead

[twilit phoenix]

ya sub m+ is honestly easier than sin

[jagged rover]

and it does more than sin on bosses

[twilit phoenix]

plus it's stronger rn

[worldly remnant]

Sin ST boss damage in keys is depressing

[noble shale]

how you guys finding it for general aoe

[jagged rover]

unless your group pulls packs in for funnel, thats how sin competes

[noble shale]

i've started trying to get my tanks to do that lol

singel target sin is depressing

[twilit phoenix]

sin funnel is kinda down bad rn with the bugs

[jagged rover]

yeah, thats true. the caustic issue with singular focus is pretty big

[random comet]

Imagine having your sought-after niche just deleted lol

In a world where arcane mage lives as well

[lethal lark]

Im checking things out here because the bugs in assassination are getting annoying. How is sub in keys and pure single target?

[random comet]

It’s good. I’m teaching myself to like it

[hazy breach]

The famously bug free spec of subtlety rogue

Sub is good in keys and raid

[lethal lark]

Is it as bad as Ass?

[jagged rover]

sub is great in keys, much better single target than sin

the bugs sub has are mostly not impactful to anything you are doing (except cold blood bug, fuck that thing)

[hazy breach]

Idk depends on how exactly you define buggy, but in a lot of ways yes

[lethal lark]

Fatebound Sin seems to pop pretty hard ST, but that would be raid only obs

[hazy breach]

Shadowcraft refunds happening on all of the coup is a very noticeable one

[jagged rover]

mmm true, I forget about that one. I'm used to just waiting for coup to finish ticking

[hazy breach]

But like, caustic not working with singular focus on assa is similar to the bugs nimble flurry still has

[lethal lark]

Is it worth dusting off Hekili to practice? Or does it not work well with Sub?

[hazy breach]

Not to mention singular focus on sub doesnt work with either secret technique or shadowblades

[jagged rover]

thats true, I forget DS sub technically exists lol

[hazy breach]

One should be so lucky to forget

Atleast weve gotten one major bugfix every patch

Blades didnt use to work with sectech, now it does
Blades didnt use to do anything to nimble flurry, now it does (not perfectly though)

[lethal lark]

Will my crit + mastery gear transition work well enough for sub?

[hazy breach]

Just dont get haste and youre good

[random comet]

Nice to have cooldowns that scale in aoe

[slate lantern]

subs burst is pretty rigid so better just to take the training wheels off from the rip and hit dummies til you get it right

[steel sierra]

Between Myth shoulders, or H Antenna, any opinions outside of what my sims are saying?

[icy mulch]

double on use is better on last 2

antenna becomes big coggy load

[steel sierra]

Oh yeah?

[wanton mantle]

if u were to run double on use, lilly and prism. Treat prism as a big 3m with cd's?

[hazy breach]

yes and just holy lily when you press prism

Although i wouldnt really recommend double on-use outside of exactly prism+forge

[strange chasm]

!Fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wanton mantle]

yeah im not fond of running double on use either

[tribal blade]

i just took it because i had no other good options

plus i won't see last 2 bosses in quite a bit

[empty plume]

• if I send dance+symbols on, say, an 8-mob pack in a dungeon.. and I am starved of shadow techniques stacks, such that my next shadowstrike takes me to 4-5 cp - do I shadowstrike again or do a finisher?

• is it ever valid to storm for max cp (and aoe fw) in a scenario where you get shit shadowtechniques RNG?

I sometimes feel energy starved if I have to perform two builders before finishing. I've read to always strike in dance and never storm outside coup/tierset. Just wondering if that's always true even if it would be a 3cp strike with no shadow tech stacks vs a 7cp storm

[hazy breach]

You would strike again yes, to reach 6 or more

[limpid gull]

what does everyone use for their titan disc belt?

it says lightning rod but when i look at logs it doesnt actually do dmg

just wondering if the tooltip is bugged

[alpine wraith]

critical chain

maybe weird translation says lightning rod

[gloomy slate]

how long has the cb bug been going on..

im about to flip my desk...

[lucid jackal]

since launch, but FB sin has never been playable

This is the first tier where the bug has been relevant

[gloomy slate]

ah

[quiet smelt]

Is cursed idol any good? Sims well but seems clunky to use ?

[astral axle]

[left ledge]

[astral axle]

https://tenor.com/view/small-cat-small-cat-cute-cute-cat-gif-14314208550066868991

[alpine wraith]

what a chad

[random comet]

It is good, horrid to use though

[quiet smelt]

right

[flint sundial]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[random comet]

I’m choosing to take the small L on sim dps

[dusk stone]

shadow techniques isn't a massive thing in the spec, you can optimize around it but its not that big of a deal, the rule is 5 or 6+ CP per finisher always, with the exception of coup outside of CD's which you mostly just want to make you get both off within 5 seconds

[left ledge]

for the record though for anyone who reads that ^ you do want to track it still just to know when you're going to have resets

[dusk stone]

yeah

[rapid oasis]

wait its ok to send sec tech at 5 or 6 pts?

[left ledge]

i mean you only have 7 combo points

you're not going to build again if you're at 6

[alpine wraith]

you send at 6 yes

not at 5

[gloomy slate]

bro i cant believe ive went 3 weeks without knowing about this bug

[empty plume]

one big cause for my question was the feeling that, over the course of a dungeon, I'd be losing out on a dance+symbols+sectech by not maximising my cooldown reduction from combo point gain and spend

[gloomy slate]

its like westworld when the bots see soime shit and “It doesn’t look like anything to me”

[left ledge]

fortunately the robot has answered that question

it is more worth to send at 6+ than to try and minmax cds

[empty plume]

referring to the latter question in my original post

[left ledge]

the cb bug?

[dapper jasper]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[gloomy slate]

ye

[left ledge]

"is it ever valid to storm for max cp (and aoe fw) in a scenario where you get shit shadowtechniques RNG?" this?

ngl not sure what it really means

[left ledge]

you can throw like one storm in dance in aoe

but past that it is not worth it

you shouldnt have combo point problems

you dance with symbols, there is an incredibly slim chance you hit 3 cp

idek if its possible actually

[empty plume]

felt more like energy problems situationally

[left ledge]

and you shouldnt ever have energy problems in symbols

[empty plume]

which makes sense because shadow techniques gives energy every proc

[left ledge]

im not sure how that could happen

[rocky sparrow]

!coup

[empty plume]

so you are either starved of energy + cp or neither

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[left ledge]

you're only starved outside of cds

which is fine

you're not meant to be spending or building quickly outside of cds

[empty plume]

nah, starved inside a symbols dance but outside 1:30s

[left ledge]

but in your symbols/dance you should not have any cp or energy problems

you're losing energy in a symbols dance?

[empty plume]

if I have to strike twice I will sit there with cp available and mashing bp
(shadowstrike is 45 energy, 2 strikes = 90 out of 100 energy)
so if you don't run vigor/tea and you don't get shadow techniques procs, it's feasible to have to wait for ~20 energy gen to bp

but have to regen the energy for the bp to go

maybe haste issue

[left ledge]

well hopefully someone else can help

because i have 0 haste

and never encounter that issue

[lethal lark]

Does Coup show as a buff?

[patent sedge]

does anyone know of a good video guide on how to play Trickster sutlety rogue for raid

[left ledge]

not sure what could be causing that

[left ledge]

escalating blades

[patent sedge]

i generally been playing assassination this xpack and i watched whyspers guide

i dont think he has a sub guide tho

[tender frost]

i hit forge instead of 18 stack prism on last burn on forgeweaver

[patent sedge]

couldnt find a decent video on youtube

[tender frost]

put me down

[lethal lark]

Thank you. I build out TMW windows that show when stuff like this is active.

[rocky sparrow]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[lethal lark]

Is supercharger the reason we use Symbols 20 seconds pre pull?

[empty plume]

@left ledge do you run tea in m+

[pure jay]

Is there a picture or anything for how nimble flurry works? I just fk'd up on our soulbinder naaz kill and think I know why, just looking for a visual

[lucid jackal]

what?

[pure jay]

whispyr has a good graphic for caustic spatter, curious if there's something similar for nimble, but watched a reply of a log and it confirmed my misplay

[lucid jackal]

Its just around the player

[pure jay]

between all the bugs and various changes "around the player" is a little vague for me, but I was definitely out of position

idk how far "nearby" is

[chrome fern]

how were you out of position? you have to be in melee to hit the boss

[alpine wraith]

if you can melee something 2 steps more and you still flurry it

[pure jay]

1 side of the boss is closer to the adds

[alpine wraith]

maybe he was more on 1 side so he only hit 1 side

and lost quite a bit of dmg

same thing with tangles on loomithar

and why you want to step the first and go to the side

to nimble onto the other

[lucid jackal]

How is this causing you a wipe

I dont understand

[pure jay]

you're making an assumption

[mossy spear]

first time ran sub in key--- does this look remotely right for very small pulls?

[alpine wraith]

man just wants to maximise damage

that is ok

[pure jay]

i fucked up on it

[lucid jackal]

Oh, the kill

[pure jay]

because I didnt do nearly as much dmg as i should or want to

[lucid jackal]

I mean its around the player

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[pure jay]

thank you for the percise information o7

[lucid jackal]

ITs not like caustic which is both the player, and the target

[alpine wraith]

ye around 8y or so from your center

caustic got the premium treatment

because it is from assa

[pure jay]

which is why I was asking for a picture/visual of it like the caustic spatter visual

[alpine wraith]

we get bf

[pure jay]

thank you

[alpine wraith]

let me check a vod fast

[pure jay]

thats what I just did to confirm where i fk'd up

[chrome fern]

dk's just grip adds onto boss? idk

[lavish rose]

is taking first dance in raid a thing? i keep seeing it in high logs

[chrome fern]

i feel like the adds shouldnt be out of range

[pure jay]

maybe in some strats? our dk doesn't grip all the adds for every phase in mythic soulbinder

they aren't but they aren't ON the boss either

I should've moved between the two chambers

[alpine wraith]

it is likely the canister adds

those you need to center yourself

[pure jay]

@alpine wraith knows what the fuck is up lol

[alpine wraith]

yea wm is very bad we always take tfd now

[lavish rose]

oh damn

ty for intel

[chrome fern]

i mean sure, with trickster there is no real reason to spin behind the boss as no parry,

[pure jay]

essentially how our raid does it

if I move to the other side of the boss, I'm doing significantly more dmg

was just focused on the mechanics over parsing and noticed the different, did 800k+ on our first kill that was very messy on sin

but trying to prep sub for forgemaster

[thick field]

how big of a dps loss is it to not have your sectech supercharged?

[solemn lance]

will cloak mess up gravity well on dim

[supple mirage]

Hello all, what options do you set on raidbot to sim your top gear on bosses like araz?

[lethal lark]

Are Symbols and Dance off GCD?

[lucid jackal]

ya

[lethal lark]

Is that commonly macro'd?

[swift tinsel]

no

[ember hound]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[quiet smelt]

i know theres a "pre pull" thing with symbols but is there a pre key stup ?

[swift tinsel]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[toxic topaz]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[rocky sparrow]

guys anything weird to do in soulbinder?

cuz idk if im just pressing everything in cd and its wrong

or what

[swift tinsel]

save dance for add spawns

hold flag for 2min add spawn

profit

[alpine wraith]

you need to delay first cds for around 20 secs

then sometime shold dances

try to eye the beams casts

[swift tinsel]

yeah if you line up flag so your sectech hits as the adds spawn you'll have everything up for every spawn

[alpine wraith]

if you can use something like liquid or echo reminders

or look at lorrgs

[swift tinsel]

and you obliterate everything

rs worth on dh boss?

i'm thinking no

[warm marlin]

absolutely

[swift tinsel]

worth dropping PE?

[warm marlin]

ya

[swift tinsel]

tyty

[lucid jackal]

DH bosses

[warm marlin]

tfd is goated tho

they're stacked on pull

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah I run tfd errwhere

[bleak night]

tfd on pull sounds huge yeah

[warm marlin]

biggie burst

[lucid jackal]

Good point

[swift tinsel]

and have predisorient from the lil void dudes in the pavillion

[warm marlin]

3 target 7 minutes

[bleak night]

oh wtf

[bleak night]

i have to do that next time

[swift tinsel]

there's a handful of them so setting up predis is super easy

[warm marlin]

also dh boss doesnt normally insta wipe u

had plenty of time today to sectec before dying

[strange chasm]

with forge and prism is there a macro to use both

like we use forge on pull then prism right

[bleak night]

you can probably just bind forge to shadowblades

and have prism on a bind

[swift tinsel]

man I'd be smoking this place if I had prism

[bleak night]

would only maybe cause issues if you hold blades for enough for forge to come back up

[elder isle]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[elder isle]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[elder isle]

is there a good number of targets to have rupture up on in M+ or just anything that lives for 12+ seconds?

[pulsar hemlock]

If the tank is still pulling you can rupture along the way, otherwise just open as normal

[elder isle]

ok yea thats what i am doing just dotting til packs group up then ripping

[pulsar hemlock]

Yeah pmuch that

[elder isle]

didnt know if i should keep spreading once we got grouped and lust went of basically

[jagged rover]

good moth kill

[pulsar hemlock]

ez

[winter ice]

Is meta based on performance of specs or popularity? sub #1 dps in some keys wondering why more aren’t swapping

[jagged rover]

I need to put embellishment somewhere else now lol

[swift tinsel]

I swear to fuck our tanks are griefing melee on purpose

[formal estuary]

cold blood + ST macro busted - anyone else hitting this? are they forcing me to CB 2nd ST? heheheh

[swift tinsel]

Imma tie weights to their feet so they aren't tracking all over gods green earth

[jagged rover]

we killed moth tonight right when I was in the middle of my full cds + prism + pot 🙁

[tired jackal]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[jagged rover]

good upgrades today though

[twilit phoenix]

juiced

[lethal lark]

fwiw the Sub guide is the best I've ever read.

[rocky sparrow]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[swift tinsel]

no prism again

[wet robin]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[twilit phoenix]

fuu is the goat

make sure to give him a good glaze every once in a while

[lethal lark]

Gladly

Do we macro tea, or keep a bind?

[alpine wraith]

you can macro tea to dance

juuust

try not to proc it outside dance

[lethal lark]

Copy

And trinket to SB?

[twilit phoenix]

yeah

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[lethal lark]

Sweet ty

So rotational will we always have an SD window between Flag and SB use?

[alpine wraith]

yea at least one sometimes two

[pastel bramble]

is dawnbreaker crystal good ?

got it in vault

[alpine wraith]

yea it is fine

[runic crescent]

does cursed stone idol sim super high for anyone else

[alpine wraith]

it is an on use it works fine

same as lilly

just worse than prism or forge

[runic crescent]

sims says 450k cursed stone + lily over leah +lilly

[pastel bramble]

https://pasteboard.co/RMsvtDzTKHdF.png

ofc i dont want to get finger and the wrist that i have one crafted y ?

[alpine wraith]

second socket

nice