subtlety

[rustic mortar]

*Flood 14

[vale widget]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hybrid compass]

im doing like 4-6m on +10-11s lol but i have a 2piece tho idk it would give me that much dps

[keen patrol]

i run lilly trinkeyt and netherprism which is better to macro on shadowblades

[hazy breach]

Idk either or neither

Use lily at 0, 90s and the prism at 180, then back to lily at 270

[keen patrol]

what u mean

[vale widget]

Outside opener and flag+blades, when coup from tier activates you use shuriken storm between coup too or backstab?

[hazy breach]

No only in blades

[vale widget]

Okok

[bleak night]

what if i vanish for premed for the storm

[hazy breach]

Neutral with just using vanish naturally

In sims atleast

[strange chasm]

Uh oh trinket nerfs. Does this mean forge and prism bis?

[short radish]

woooooo astral nerf

[stiff remnant]

Damnit after I just sent my crests into the Antenna

[hazy breach]

Its 3% to the crit

Practically nothing

[keen patrol]

sometimes i instant reset combo points how is that possible

[strange chasm]

Actually wait it's only nerf to crit

That's nothing lmao

[hazy breach]

Shadowcraft

[short radish]

blizzard really likes you (shadowcraft)

[dusk stone]

Yo

[short radish]

yooooooooo

[dusk stone]

Our trinket didnt get hit

[short radish]

yeah because i havent looted it yet

you're welcome

[keen patrol]

how do it proc then

[hazy breach]

Its probably like -0.2% in sims

[dusk stone]

Well they said they dont expect to do more trinket tuning

Do we want diff passive than antenna?

[hazy breach]

No

[short radish]

read the talent

then read your passive shadow techniques

[keen patrol]

yeah i dont undestand can i track it if it will reset or not

i did

[short radish]

then ask again if youre still confused

kk

[quasi mantle]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[quasi mantle]

hm there isn't a shadowcraft tracker in there only a refund

[keen patrol]

is that refund thing good aswell?

[quasi mantle]

any of the packs will have a shadowcraft tracker if you want to rip it out specifically

[quasi mantle]

they are the same thing

[short radish]

acutally that shadow technique image is an old one

but basically

when you are in blades

your CP generators always generate max CP

so you're never using your Shadow technique procs

so when you are on 7 shadow technique stacks when you do a finisher

it will insta refill your CP bar again

via shadowcraft

[keen patrol]

aahh like that

and 1 more quiestion

[short radish]

as seen above there's a WA

[keen patrol]

if i in aoe i spa,m shadowstrike nto black powder always

[short radish]

that tracks refunds by making a noise

uhhhh at 4 targets yeah

[wooden kernel]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[hazy breach]

Oh wait im dumb and linked the ST bit

[keen patrol]

these talents are good riught for m+?

[dusty totem]

Yo is it only worth doing douple on use when u both prism and araz or does stuff like prism + Lily trink also work?

[dusk stone]

Only worth with forge and prism from what i hear

[lucid jackal]

prism lily bad

[dusty totem]

K thx guys

[hidden jasper]

What's the cleave range on Sec Tech?

[keen patrol]

?

[misty hedge]

What is douple?

[untold fjord]

Sub is over sin by now in m+?

How its going?

[short radish]

fucking fantastic mate

[untold fjord]

really?

[short radish]

yeah

[untold fjord]

how nice.

[short radish]

thanks for asking

[untold fjord]

it was like 1 week ago sin was dominating

[short radish]

yeah now it's sins turn to be filled with bugs

really though

sin is still probably meta

and is fine

sub is strong but also barely played

so the people who are playing it are hard stacking their group to make sub work

we're a small but dedicated amount

[dusk stone]

Its an either or situation with sin theoretically better in high keys

But we said before we thought sub was good this patch too

[lucid jackal]

It is week 2 of the tier for keys

There is no meta

Sub is good, u can play sub

[dusk stone]

That too yeah

Gambit feels like a sub key to me

[untold fjord]

@

Forever yeah Just trying to understand where are we now concering dps

[dusk stone]

It sounds rather hard to put the trash ontop of last boss

[short radish]

just play whats fun mate

it's week 2

who cares

[hazy breach]

I didnt play shadowlands and people were saying gambit was a fun key

But bruh its so ass

[dusk stone]

Its not

Its shit

[short radish]

because theres 50 billion mobs to hit so people can do mass aoe

[dusk stone]

Mobs with no hp

[short radish]

yeah people are also stupid

any mob that runs away = not fun

[dusk stone]

Trash at start is so fake

[hazy breach]

Ye but theres tons of kicks so you cant feasibly pull that huge and then the rest of they key is stinky

[dusk stone]

In 13s atm and i dont get 3rd dance in opener it dies so fast

[hazy breach]

I love having lightningmen on first boss and not being allowed in melee

[dusk stone]

There has to be a way to path around that

[short radish]

I LOVE THE 4 TALL ROCK ROBOT DUDES BEFORE THE 1ST BOSS

[hazy breach]

Nah its 100% worth, they dont do anything

[short radish]

THEY ARE SO MUCH FUN

AND VERY WELL DESIGNED

[hazy breach]

It just sucks

[short radish]

10/10 WOULD SAY FUCK YOU TO MELEE AGAIN

[dusk stone]

Its easy to not die, just hard to do any damage

I have no idea how to send flag there

I think like best case

You cloak it and then evasion + another dr and take a hit

And send right after it ends

[random comet]

People also clearly forgot running gambit with two destro locks stunning everything every few seconds with blasphemy procs

[short radish]

on 10s you can feint and not die

[dusk stone]

Yeah

[zenith thorn]

the dragon boss is ass

[dusk stone]

Just giga cancer

I died on it earlier

[short radish]

dragon boss is fine if people bait properly

[dusk stone]

I was putting puddle in open space in the back and got anchored

Aint no way out of that

[zenith thorn]

even with stacking is ass on higher keys

[dusk stone]

What happened was team placed circles behind me as i dropped mine in the back, was rip for sure

[keen patrol]

What dungs are best for us then as sub

[dusk stone]

Imo streets gambit flood and db

Others are fine too if the tank knows what hes doing

[winged grotto]

is it wrong to craft a second dagger?

[dusk stone]

Sim

[zenith thorn]

99% chance yes offhand is dog

[pearl copper]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale widget]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[warm marlin]

have you tried rolling a caster

heard they're good this tier

[hazy breach]

Cant use netherprism as a caster

[warm marlin]

checkmate perhaps

[hazy breach]

Double it and give it to the next guy too fun

Tbf i could play MM and still use netherprism

[alpine wraith]

why not

nah it is still fine

you get good opener then a 9 then good forge then 18 stack in amp then forge in amp

and depending on dps send last prism with a double dance

last whole phase is an amp

try to read the journal XD

ahaha

[warm marlin]

if you prism at 90s you're going to miss having it for the 6min mega burn

where dmg amp + pot + full stack lines up if you're playing prism passive

[winged grotto]

what if i dont raid and i dont get daggers from anywhere else but m+

[graceful osprey]

I should be sending flag and SB a lot during M+ yeah? But how do you judge when to hold right before boss so that you get a good opener for boss?

[lucid jackal]

cds on CD

[winged grotto]

you usually never hold anything on m+ unless the pack is like 10% hp and you can waste the duration

[lucid jackal]

^

[tribal blade]

ok either i've been blacklisted by everyone in lfg

or i'm having one of those runs of not getting invited to a single key in over an hour of queueing

[acoustic matrix]

I'm noticing my backstab doesn't always apply a stack of escalating blade. Is it a chance to proc ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[dusk stone]

Internal cd too

[hazy breach]

Its not always proccing it.

[dusk stone]

Experience really, you learn to understand how much time before each boss but the goal is maximum flags per dungeon

The one thing you hold at all for is if mobs are mid or low hp and big pull or boss is up next. Or if there's a big damage amp and you send dances instead.

You can elect to send 1-2 symbols dance instead of flag

[summer lynx]

In M+ when do you swap to using Shurkien Storm, over Shadow Strike INSIDE of shadow dance?

[lucid jackal]

nop

[supple mirage]

Hello everyone, which sites do you use to check your BiS trinkets? BloodMallet or others?

[summer lynx]

Is that nop to me lol?

[lucid jackal]

U dont storm in dance

[summer lynx]

Rgr that

[pastel rampart]

when you're preserving UB between coups

[lucid jackal]

unless ur in between coups and have blades up

[summer lynx]

Kk ty!

[alpine wraith]

it is fine to storm once if it is on aoe

but no more than that should be needed

[warm marlin]

lashga has breached containment

[pastel rampart]

LOL

[warm marlin]

[pastel rampart]

⚠️ ⚠️

[dusk stone]

You also storm once for rotten if youre taking that talent

I think you also get less prio without TR because it becomes optimal to strike a different mob every gcd

[golden berry]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[twin quartz]

looks like they changed netherprism to only gain stacks on ability casts

im sitting here meleeing the dummy to build them like before and i only get stacks if i use an ability

[swift tinsel]

Doubt

[warm marlin]

poison auto attacks and rupture ticks should count

[twin quartz]

you're right, i didnt have a poison on

[swift tinsel]

Did they drop trinket tuning or what

[hazy breach]

Ye but its largely irrelevant

[swift tinsel]

Ye just checked and didn’t see prism so I was skeptical of the change

[dusk stone]

Well only we use it really

Its better for classes with big cd windows or you dont get the same value

So nerfing trinket for the few classes its bis including the one that doesnt get played doesnt make a ton of sense when we're not zul-ing things

[swift tinsel]

This is the company that nerfed sub DS 2pc a week before 11.2 launch so anything is possible

[alpine wraith]

watch sub be super dog on st and be still ok

until the fated week 4 situation comes again

[winter ice]

que to the key as assa its an insta invite

[alpine wraith]

nah people are catching on

big sub situation

[jagged rover]

worse case you just swap sub after getting invited, but I think most people just ignore our spec and see rogue. I haven't had any issues joining as sub but I'm not pushing right now

[slender beacon]

Is it necessary to rupture a few mobs before bursting on aoe packs ?

[jagged rover]

sub is also soooo much better than sin on boss damage if the group isn't pulling in packs to funnel

[ionic thorn]

funnel?

what funnel?

[vale widget]

Add to that the fact that assa rn is not going well cause that amount of recent bugs

[ionic thorn]

yeah

[hazy breach]

Its just one new bug

[ionic thorn]

like not having funnel

[hazy breach]

Thats like -6%ish

[ionic thorn]

uhhhh no

[hazy breach]

Which is obviously impactful

[jagged rover]

I'm still annoyed by the 4pc bug, had it happen a few times on loomithar pulls last night

[ionic thorn]

it's like up to 15% in raid lol

[hazy breach]

Well like 5% of that is an intended nerf

That caustic is doing 40% instead of 48% was intended

[jagged rover]

to top it off, my jastor didn't proc for our entire loomithar kill for me

[ionic thorn]

yeah but caustic not interacting with your funnel likely isn't

[jagged rover]

throwing that shit in the bin now

[ionic thorn]

and that's huge

[hazy breach]

Ofc

[plush roost]

Does anyone have the ritual forge double onuse string for top gear?

[hazy breach]

Ye thats what i was referring to

[plush roost]

i can yoink

[hazy breach]

Dont need one

Just sim

[vale widget]

With that hotfix, they brought annoying bugs

[alpine wraith]

yea spatter got the sec tech solution

[plush roost]

oh its updated? biggus

[alpine wraith]

maybe a sub rogue entered the team but he could not buff sub

so decided to mess with assa and outlaw

[hazy breach]

Sectech hasnt ever worked with singular

[alpine wraith]

yep never worked

[jagged rover]

give me back Tomb DFA sub with trickster cleave plz

[alpine wraith]

and guess what does not work either?

or did they fix blades

[hazy breach]

Lingering doesnt work either on sectech

Sectech works with blades as of undermine yes

[ionic thorn]

I'm sitting here hitting dummies to play a non-bugged spec 🙁

[alpine wraith]

no tomb was one of the worst tier sets

ever

meant blades with singular

[jagged rover]

I don't even remember what the tier set did, I just know DFA was fun as fuck

[alpine wraith]

as in if i bp and my blades from bp singular

[hazy breach]

Oh yeah that doesnt work either

[vale widget]

Its fun to see how your new tier makes things worse when its suposed to give you more

[alpine wraith]

havent played that spec in ages

yea i guessed

[steel sierra]

Is there a prism use guide? Just use with SB every 90 sec? Don't use on opener?

[ionic thorn]

tfw you were enjoying asssassination and they just can't not make it a bug ridden mess

[alpine wraith]

AHAHA yea figured

[jagged rover]

just bind to blades and have fun. If you want to hold it for a 3 min use for a specific fight just have separate binds for them in that situation

[alpine wraith]

you can choose if you use it every 90 or hold it for 180

depending on encounter and needs

like on m+ it will be more dps to send 18 stacks on pills

but can make key faster doing it on bosses

[steel sierra]

Thanks - but don't use on pull with first blades? or doesn't matter

[alpine wraith]

ideally you dont yea

[jagged rover]

you can't really, maybe like 1 stack if your lucky

[steel sierra]

Ty

[ionic thorn]

I too enjoy my CDs getting all wild because the "fix" didn't actually fix anything

[hazy breach]

Hey it only took them about 2 months to fix fazed and nimble working together after posting that it should work

Itll get there soon enough

[ionic thorn]

[alpine wraith]

remember when we told them nightstalker jsut flat out didnt work for almost 2 years

[plush roost]

what the

[alpine wraith]

and they were like wait really

[plush roost]

in what world does same ilvl araz sim lower than lily

[jagged rover]

shhhh I'm ignoring double on use. It can't hurt me if I don't believe it exists

[plush roost]

whats goin on here

[woeful wren]

do u guys just play the standard CB spec for soul huntes?

[fallen depot]

what are like solid sub overalls?

i feel like i lose too much dmg outside of cds

[hazy breach]

Standard ST, but swap PE+Imp sht into replicating and finality

[fallen depot]

i know thats how the class is but goddamn

[hazy breach]

Looks fine

[vale widget]

Someday they will fix, trust

prob at the end of turboseason

[warm marlin]

why yo sim cooked

[slender beacon]

Pretty normal for sub. Outside of cds you’re trash.

[vale widget]

Thats how sub works
Big blast > Sit for 90 secs > Again big blast

[hazy breach]

Idk in keys we do fine damage in dances now

[alpine wraith]

use latest

[hazy breach]

Even outside blades

Obviously outside dance not much is happening

[slender beacon]

It’s all about timing your cooldowns correctly and getting the most out of them when you have big health mobs

[hazy breach]

But double coups+sectech is fine and can get you to like 10-15m in decently sized pulls, which is acceptable

[vale widget]

Ye, now is less notorious the downfall between cds
Its better by far than before

[hazy breach]

ST youre doing some 500k dps gaming sometimes

But thats fine

[vale widget]

The thing is ppl doin' high keys bring sub because big numbers and their comps are good to do things while sub is out of cds

[slender beacon]

Look if you want some perspective which isn’t much. I just picked up sub again. I’m closing out overall like 3.8-4m overall on 7-8 keys. My ST is around 2.3-2m … and im not geared at all. My rogue is 673 ilvl and no current tier

And… I might be shit 🙂

[void needle]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[woeful wren]

ty bro

[hazy breach]

If you really wanna bang em

You want to swap targets to shadowstrike

To apply fw to all of them

[jagged rover]

the comp I ran with my guildies when farming keys had all of us on 1.5 or 3m cds. Packs would explode, then we'd take awhile if someone didn't hold lol

[vale widget]

I mean, its normal to feel like shit if you are new to the spec. Just continue playing and eventually you will do things better

[plush roost]

good coms

[slender beacon]

I had asked this before … not sure if anyone answered it. Are you guys spreading ruptures before dropping the bomb ?

[hazy breach]

Generally no

[alpine wraith]

remember to int ingame not in sims too

[hazy breach]

If the mobs are stacked

Send cds

[alpine wraith]

although nightly rebuild should have it on some hours

[acoustic matrix]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[hazy breach]

The update to use double on-use better was days ago, it is in

Thats why prism+lily is simming fine

[acoustic matrix]

You guys ever cast symbols twice spamming too much ?

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[vale widget]

If mobs are already stacked no
If tank is pulling and theres time before all stack, you could do it

[acoustic matrix]

Exactly what I was looking for ty!

[vale widget]

Its not like assa, that you must spread ruptures

[woeful wren]

@hazy breach is it only 1/2 finality?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[woeful wren]

cool

[acoustic matrix]

Had a question about that part, don't you risk pulling aggro doing that ?

[void needle]

Are you guys dropping tfd on dimensius?

[vale widget]

Tricks

[hazy breach]

Well thats why you have tricks

[acoustic matrix]

Aight

[vale widget]

And with trickster, your tricks have 1h duration

[acoustic matrix]

Oh ye forgot about that

that's huge with monk/DH tbh

[tribal blade]

nvm got invited to a 16 flood and timed it haha

i think i was just having bad luck in lfg

[high eagle]

Antenna nerf?!

[stoic locust]

3 whole %

.>

[vale widget]

3%

[stoic locust]

as if it still isn't gonna be several % ahead

[rocky stream]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[bitter halo]

Guys, can flagellation be macroed to shadow blades?

[zenith thorn]

MH is what matters most offhand ilevel is low prio

[hazy breach]

That is not ideal no

[bitter halo]

Can you explain why please?

[stoic locust]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[stoic locust]

basically, you want to use shadow blades a couple globals after flagellation

[bitter halo]

Ok cool, ty

[raw dust]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[novel plaza]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusk stone]

Because 85% of subs damage is in its burst phase and if you mess that up your throughput suffers significantly

Its ok to do it thay way when you're learning, just not when it matters

[slender beacon]

what does two + four set mean on the spread sheet ?

im assuming 4set? >.>

[dusk stone]

Yes

2p + 2p is old and new 2pc together

[jagged rover]

double on use doesn't exist and can't hurt me (going to ignore ritual forge existing)

[alpine wraith]

ehehe

[jagged rover]

good news, it sims less than antenna, I'm good to go

[hazy breach]

Sometimes antenna is gonna be worse than it sims since youre gonna miss some of the orbs

But sometimes its gonna be better than it sims because you can dodge the balls and delay the crit buff until you dance

[swift tinsel]

break out the witherbark branch graphic

[hazy breach]

For example on nexus king most of echos roster used antenna

None used it on dimensius

[dusk stone]

Makes sense

You cant move on dimensius

[broken rampart]

Since you generally always use shadow dance+symbols... how bad is it to macro them together? I know we already macro tea with dance.

[hazy breach]

Its not that bad, but its not ideal

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[random hare]

does this dipshit work with dance?

why is it not showing on my char panel

otherwise why is it even a talent

[dusk stone]

It works on the first hit thats it

[vale widget]

A question that remains all xpac

[random hare]

what the helly

like

its useless even if its 50% leech

[warm marlin]

pretty sure its the first hit of real stealth too

[random hare]

[warm marlin]

dont think dance refreshes it

only vanish

[random hare]

these fuckers made it 2%

[hazy breach]

It doesnt work with subterfuge, vanish or dance

[vale widget]

Its a dead talent

[warm marlin]

oh not even vanish

[dusk stone]

Its fine when you're learning. I do the same thing and when i got more experienced i then also bound them seperately because you need to do it that way at times

[random hare]

NOT EVEN VANISH

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

SO ITS USELESS EVEN IF ITS 1000000000% LEECH

XDXDXD

[random comet]

Maybe with midnight we can delete nodes that straight up don’t work. The dream

[dusk stone]

I believe vanish would work with it

[random comet]

Probably in keys with trash

[random comet]

But not on bosses I’d guess

[random hare]

is this useful in any dungeon

like

at all

[dusk stone]

What are the other options

[vale widget]

Blizz doin things well? Nah, they prefer to add 4 more bugs on a hotfix

[dusk stone]

Sub isnt a spec, its a random set of assorted bugs that sometimes work with one another

[prime ice]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[vale widget]

That reminded me the spaghetti code meme
You dont know how it work, just dont touch it and let it be

[dusk stone]

Duct tape and dreams the spec

[hybrid compass]

Hoa mobs slow with something i thing i dont remember anything else

[dusk stone]

Sub is nice rn tho

[short radish]

this would be better if it was changed to "impact of movement slowing effects"

instead of duration

or at least it'd do something

[vale widget]

Ye, at least rn is in a good position
Assa too, but everytime I touch it I want to change to previous tierset

[blazing cypress]

Dumb question. When does Cyrces Circlet fall off? Sims arent telling me to get rid of it? Unless I am just an idiot and cant read.

[short radish]

link sim

pretty sure circlet got replaced last season

[blazing cypress]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c4rKuWCDzupobhNvgJym1d

[short radish]

with myth track ring

oh yeah your rings suck

and they are haste

[blazing cypress]

Yea. My gearing this tier has been suboptimal so far.

[bleak wind]

put some sockets on them as well

[short radish]

you also have haste enchants

[blazing cypress]

I started as sin and just moved to sub.

[short radish]

outlaw players smh

just put mastery on them or something if you want to multispec

or put vers and who cares about stat weighting for assi since its so meaningless

also put sockets in your neck

also get the delve belt

[blazing cypress]

Half my gear isnt enchanted.

[short radish]

also enchant your bracers and shoes

also get a job and touch grass

[blazing cypress]

Lmao

[short radish]

go to the gym and work on yourself

[hybrid compass]

Delve belt

[short radish]

spend at least 20 minutes outside a day

[hybrid compass]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[dusk stone]

Can we get this reduced to 5

[short radish]

No. Just for that comment you need to spend 30 minutes outside a day

[ember hound]

Is there a lot of damage events in mana forge that atrophic can’t reduce?

[dusk stone]

Ill counter with 1.5

[short radish]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aaBz5vC3VauxnXqY5q0zxOpFXwhPXaHvYe3VpWLAta0/edit?gid=0#gid=0

[short radish]

40 minutes. don't keep on trying me

[ember hound]

Yo fim

Thanks a bunch brotha

[short radish]

no wokkas

[paper surge]

is there a specific talent that makes shadowstrike put you behind your target?

[short radish]

no it just do be like that

[brittle tangle]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[brisk onyx]

if we got 4stacks EB about ~10s before cds, should we still cast bs or storm?

[rocky sparrow]

Guys why are we running other wep enchants different than radiant power?

[short radish]

because the robot says so

[ripe flame]

first mythic boss as sub since DF didn't do as poorly as expected

[raven jackal]

Kinda curious how I should ideally use my trinkets since I have a lilly/netherprism. Atm, I'm sending nether prism with shadowblades and lilly with minis

[mossy zodiac]

Howtf i do dmg with this xdd my aoe sucks with this

[solemn sonnet]

can use turnip punching bag to stack prism stacks in hardmode tazavesh while waiting for lust

[mossy zodiac]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

How many more questions do you have left in ya to answer?

[short radish]

i cant promise my answers will be as helpful though

[lilac stag]

I offer up the bitches

[short radish]

your offering is acceptable

[lilac stag]

@tepid raven scroll up a message when you wake up.

Doggos!

[stiff stirrup]

Does the vanish shuriken storm macro still work for first dance?

[willow pawn]

how many targets do we start Shurikan storming?

or do we spam shadowstrike in AoE

[lilac stag]

have you read any of the guides?

[loud brook]

does the trinket change likely changes anything?

[lilac stag]

Literally spelled out in the aoe rotation on all 3 guides.

[willow pawn]

thx man

[alpine wraith]

you still use strike in dance

only storm if you have rotten or with blades in between coups

although youc an also storm in between coups in mass aoe

[twilit phoenix]

Love ur dogs so much bro

[slender beacon]

anyone drop a link for the best sub talent loadout

with or without 4pc 🙂

https://tenor.com/view/the-office-annoyed-angry-frustrated-silence-gif-3234177536345299895

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[thick field]

is there a good channel to ask for a quick log review?

[short radish]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short radish]

whatever the talents are in any of the guides

[short radish]

do a !log and hope someone looks at it

[lucid jackal]

[alpine wraith]

he is going to two handed mace your ass

man what a cool boss

[thick field]

!log

[ornate heron]

why are tehre so many different talents for sub for the higher keys? i see most of them running last seasons talents compared to the wowhead guide? just curious is all

[alpine wraith]

sorry dont have a gun to everyone's heads

they can play whatever they want

the diff is not huge anyway

[twilit phoenix]

damn wtf hachadino

that's sassy af bro

[alpine wraith]

tbh you will see many funny things

[twilit phoenix]

you a sassy spaniard!!!!

[alpine wraith]

im not even spanisH!

[twilit phoenix]

are you a catalan?

[alpine wraith]

im from colombia

[short radish]

because the differences are so meaningless it doesn't really matter either way

[alpine wraith]

kinda far away

[twilit phoenix]

holy shit I got my lore all fucked up

my bad king

[alpine wraith]

i do live in spain but yea

[ornate heron]

thank you <#

[iron plover]

In ST, do you evisc if you’re at 4 CP?

Or SS again

During dance/symbols

Wowhead guide says to use finishers at 6 so I just assume we may need to SS twice inbetween finishers

[short radish]

yeah

it feels bad

but like

you gotta ss again

[iron plover]

[night sparrow]

Pretty sure that if ss once more leads to an out of dance finisher it's still better to 5cp bp/evis isnt it ?

[short radish]

yeah tbh if its my last global in dance

im pressing a finisher

im not listening to a clanker telling me what to do

[deft gulch]

Does it matter if I use sword in my off hand?

[short radish]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[deft gulch]

It's that much of a dps loss?

[short radish]

you could equip a 720 sword in your OH and it'd probably be worse than a 600 ilvl dagger

[night sparrow]

^ this

[deft gulch]

All I have is a 655 ilvl dagger and 720 sword

Wow really.

I feel so silly.

[short radish]

nice! 655 is way better than a 600 ilvl dagger

[twilit phoenix]

yeah it sucks but that's how it is

just buy a dagger on AH or something

[short radish]

your OH is rather meaningless with damage

except that it auto attacks

which procs shadow techniques

slower OH means less procs

means less cp

means less finishers

means less damage

[twilit phoenix]

[short radish]

means the illuminati wins

[deft gulch]

cool

[short radish]

wait no not that

[deft gulch]

ty for the help

[short radish]

np

[night sparrow]

Sim yourself and tell us, i'm pretty curious what's the actual difference @deft gulch

[short radish]

704 mace OH vs 655 dagger OH

[twilit phoenix]

this can't be accurate

[short radish]

damn you got me

i'm actually a shill for BIG DAGGER

[twilit phoenix]

it's definitely more than 1.2% with the ST thing

is big dagger really this powerful?

[short radish]

yeah

we're everywhere

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bxrhWCptm3v1KDKg2eJjyP

[twilit phoenix]

tampering with the APL

insane

[short radish]

it also says low precision

so could be worse

¯_(ツ)_/¯

either way don't use a mace/sword/fist in your OH

[twilit phoenix]

myth track pissmaker

[short radish]

with leech

[twilit phoenix]

with leech!!!!!

[short radish]

i wish it had speed though

i had a speed pacemaker last tier

[twilit phoenix]

now you just need prism

and you'll be goated

[short radish]

yeah if it'd drop that'd be great

[maiden oar]

is there a vault simulator

like can i see the odds of pulling a specific item on reset

[short radish]

https://wowutils.com/loot/playground/vault

[maiden oar]

thanjs

surely mythic prism in vault tomorrow

100% cuance

[short radish]

[scarlet burrow]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[maiden oar]

do people in here do log reviews?

curious how i couldve played araz better bc i think it wasnt perfect

[short radish]

MY ODDS LOOKING PRETTY GARBO

[short radish]

do !log and

[chrome palm]

what is this

[modest lily]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[maiden oar]

!log

[short radish]

#subtlety message

[manic ice]

whats the real damage loss % for macro'ing cold blood to secret tech

[maiden oar]

ok ty

[steel jolt]

can the vault actually give me maces if i am opening it as sin?

seems fishy

[short radish]

it shouldnt

thats also an int mace

[steel jolt]

yes, even more confusing

[lilac stag]

If only it was an int dagger

[modest lily]

been since BfA since I've played my rogue, how are people setting up their Bar1 vs stealth bar now days? Replicate it? I feel like I remember doing this back then but it's been a min.

[alpine wraith]

around 1.5% but can be more now

if you use flag too early and cb is on cd also on your cds

[alpine wraith]

nope sub/sin delete slow one handers

[jagged rover]

[lost rampart]

Hey all,

When our tier set procs and we use our first Coup, if our SS only gives a few CP, we should just cast Coup again anyway right? It's a waste to cast SS more than once to build CP?

[paper surge]

I am confused why you shuriken storm between coupe de grace while in shadow dance, could someone explain it?

[short radish]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tawny thunder]

when is it ethical to black powder in a dungeon or should i always evis if there is a prio target

[tepid trellis]

4 or more targets

Bp goes brrrt

[native zodiac]

You managed to kill dhs yesterday stealthi?

[lost rampart]

Regardless of any amount of Flawless Form stacks?

[fallen depot]

is it just skill diff. i see casualaddict in keys and outside of cds. he can still manage to get like 8-10m dps.

[brisk onyx]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[tepid trellis]

nope. comp too shit cuz people werent available

[native zodiac]

Rip, we saw your comp and were like jesus lmao

[wise vortex]

Is blades immediately after sectec still a thing or is my muscle memory griefing me?

[tepid trellis]

it was absolutely horrible to play with 7 melee

[native zodiac]

We had 2 melee dps in total

[tepid trellis]

dont think our comp will allow that

think we in general just have too many melee in the roster compared to ranged

[native zodiac]

Unlucky tier for that

[tepid trellis]

should be better next reset when our evoker healer is back

pres is just broken on that fight

or any fight really

[native zodiac]

Was about to say sounds like any fight

We had 2 of our wl go on vacation at the start of the tier and our maintank is gone during dimensius

[civic pagoda]

Hey Guys , Had a Long Break from Sub
Do we Always BP in AoE If there are 4+ Targets ?
Or are we still evis with trickster until 7+ Targets ?

And If there is No prio target

[native zodiac]

Bp 4+

[maiden oar]

do you think sub is fine on dhs

i hear people say outlaws really good and if it was fb outlaw i could probably play that but im not good enough at trickster outlaw i think

[alpine wraith]

all rogue specs are passengers on that boss

[native zodiac]

You playing outlaw/sub/assa wont make a diff on that fight

[maiden oar]

i see

[alpine wraith]

just enjoy the fight

look at the cool visuals

[maiden oar]

[alpine wraith]

SPIRIT BOMB

[maiden oar]

ok ill play sub because its my favorite

[alpine wraith]

tbh playing assa on that fight seems like CBT

keeping rupture on the 3

and garrote on 2

[maiden oar]

yea i played it on the heroic ver and i had no idea what i was doing

[alpine wraith]

changing the mark before intermissions

AAAaaAaaAAa

[native zodiac]

Fuck assa honestly

I couldnt imagine playing deathstalker on that boss

[spare oar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[native zodiac]

Youre also just so much less tanky for fracture soaks etc

[frail kindle]

so

is cheat just useless in salhadaar

[summer peak]

Anyone have a weakaura reminder to press SOD before pull? 😆

Keep forgetting

[rough herald]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lucid jackal]

just in P1

[frail kindle]

i see

[cursive vapor]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[civic lake]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[abstract pine]

With rotten talent at +2 targets. Do we storm instead of backstab after dance to get danse stacks and fw? Or still backstab?

[tribal blade]

thumbs up

[vivid nest]

yeah i have same question do we shuriken storm at all?

[acoustic matrix]

Guys I've noticed that sending Cold Blood on the first SecTec allows me to cast it again in between Flag windows and have it back for the next one. Is that a dps loss ?

[shadow snow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tribal blade]

better to use it on the 2nd dance in cds and then just not even press it until next cd set

[shadow snow]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[summer mica]

guys, am i getting this right, netherprism stacks are reseting on pulling a raid boss but not on starting a key?

[alpine wraith]

they also reset on starting a key

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah I simmed it and it's a loss

[stiff remnant]

Yeah they reset in a key… just checked

[crisp lion]

Ya I tried all 3 and got similar results. We are just soul picker upers

[chrome palm]

I tried outlaw but I don’t need two headaches at the same time

5 melee soul hunters

[shrewd lantern]

just there for atro

and cope the boots will be in vault after

[lime edge]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[chrome palm]

So I checked uptime

Should we be spamming storm for Atro

🙈

[native zodiac]

Frac unlocks hunter loot anyways

[shrewd lantern]

Does he actually

damn

i thought it was an endboss unlocks prior boss deal

I guess it was also so i cant just only do araz+soulhunters on a shit alt

and focus my vault on those

[native zodiac]

Any boss thats after another one in the journal unlocks the previous boss loot p much

[clever delta]

Antena nerf nice

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah cant cheese alt vaults

[clever delta]

So sad we did not kill forge

I was blasting

[vivid nest]

do we only use storm on the 4 tier proc or is there any other case where that button is pressed?

[spiral needle]

What's the reasoning behind backstabbing instead of shuriken storming for 1st shadow dance move against multiple targets?

[vale pine]

you did that in the past for rotten

but if you are not playing rotten, there is no reason to

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

^ the 2nd optimization is the when you would want to use storm in dance

[vivid nest]

can i press the button outside of dance?

[vale pine]

storm

yes

you almost exclusively use storm outside of dance

[viral oar]

Even in ST? While in dance

[vale pine]

once you have more targets

on st

you use backstab

the optimization, yes

for backstab in dance, also yes

[viral oar]

Dont you use backstab first think in shadow dance for danse macabre?

Thing*

[vale pine]

yes

it is a small optimization to use it with premeditation

[viral oar]

And in aoe just swap backstab for shuriken storm then

And before coup

[vale pine]

you can continue doing backstab in aoe

or just strike

the optimization loses impact with more targets

[vivid nest]

okay thanks i was very confused on SS usage

[spiral needle]

does storm putting FW on off-targets not benefit flurry?

[vale pine]

ss = storm or strike?

[vivid nest]

storm

[vale pine]

well its like this

[viral oar]

I think I understand but just so I'm sure - backstab and shuriken storm do not proc unseen blade so they're better used before second coup so the coup can benefit from unseen blade

[vale pine]

use:

• During Shadow Dance:
  • Strike (alway)
• Outside of Shadow Dance:
  • Shuriken storm on 2+ targets

everything else are small optimizations

e.g. the storm in shadow dance for coup is a optimization for the new 4 set bonus

[vivid nest]

the 4th tier one is kinda mandatory tho isnt it

[vale pine]

its only worth it during blades

but during cooldowns its around 1-1.5% dps

so i would do it

but if you are new to the spec

losing 1% dps is low in impact

you lose wayyy more by playing inefficient

and the first thing to learn is rly cooldown management

[steady dune]

with the new trinket balencing, are we expecting our choices to stay the same?

[vale pine]

basically.
Try to have 2x symbols, 2x secret 2x dance during flagellation/blades

this is the most important thing

[vivid nest]

Yeah i was just wondering cause i was using storm during dance in aoe and i did a key using strike instead and my damage sky rocketed but i think i got it now thx

[vale pine]

and while doing so

try to use symbols/dance/secret in between together if possible

and try to not break the 2x symbols/secret/dance during flag

thats basially the spec, everything else are just small optimizations you can do on top

there are a lot of these, so they add up. But doing what i just told gives you 80-90% of the output

[acoustic matrix]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VtDh7MvFkdcHfLpC?fight=1&type=casts&view=timeline&source=1
Any advice on this short target dummy session ?

[clever holly]

If im going to use my mini cds and got everything ready and a coup ready

Do I SD first coup sod sec tec second coup

So both second coup and sec tec get supercharged

Or do I just send sod SD sec tec and the both coups?

[vale pine]

you want secret to be supercharged

[acoustic matrix]

Does at mean we need to throw SoD before the second SecTec in cooldowns ?

[vale pine]

the storm between coups is only during blades, so not always

[acoustic matrix]

Aight, it's aoe tho

it's 5 targets

[vale pine]

i would not send a blank symbols/secret, its easy to fuck your next 90 sec cycle

which you did not even play

[clever holly]

And first or second coup doesn't matter?

[still depot]

In pulls where FDance lasts longer(probably only the first pull of the dungeon), do I wait for dance to finish before sending both dance and symbols again? Or just send symbols as it ends and send 2nd dance when it ends?

[acoustic matrix]

Yeah I was sending it all at the end cause I was trying to get my sim's damage

[vale pine]

all you care about is secret

coup is irrelevant

[clever holly]

Ok

[vale pine]

i would say a less than 90 sec dummy season is fairly meh

because you basically just spam out your cooldowns

and long term planing/cooldown management can be ignored

[acoustic matrix]

Aight I'll do another one playing it properly with syncs

[vale pine]

which gies you feedback on how well you managed your cooldowns

and is very relevant in keys

or on any fight in heroic/mythic raiding atm

[acoustic matrix]

Should I send SoD right before dance in cooldowns for supercharge or that's fine ?

[misty iris]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[misty iris]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[clever holly]

Do you stream @vale pine ?

[vale pine]

I am happy wow runs on my "Modern CPU/GPU" ^^

[pseudo fiber]

guys, i have a big issue. my sim (including a specific route + dungeonslice) sims awkwardly haste hungry, while i see that haste is by far the worst stat. i can link the sim, so u can maybe look over it, what i am doing wrong

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m8MhJ6UBZtoPyCd4LTGJrr

[vale pine]

(means no, but even if i had better hardware, i don't play on a high enough level to make lifestreams interessting)

[proven plover]

bro wtf

[haughty mural]

does the nerf of antenna make it a bit more on par with pacemaker ?

[acoustic matrix]

Most people are more interested in personality/educational content

[tepid raven]

Adorable

[clever holly]

I mean your thoughts on trinkets or timings apl minmaxing basically everything is interesting

[vale pine]

youtube is probably better for that

[cloud rover]

How much is the Shuriken Storm thingy

like gain

[vale pine]

it gets stable 24 fps ^^

[acoustic matrix]

Like Asmongold was never a great player, biggest wow streamer ever

[vale pine]

~1% dps

asmongold did a lot of casual content

and i would feel stupid going rp walking to a boss

building up hype to then

[proven plover]

for how much effort you're putting into all of this, get a gofund me or something lol people would probably very much like to see guide videos from you

[cloud rover]

1% is kinda huge

[still depot]

I reckon if fuu did a go fund me for a gpu cpu. The rogue community would be behind it no? Haha

[vale pine]

"NOOOO, my mount did not drop, HOW CAN THIS BE"

[acoustic matrix]

You need to be more dramatic man

[vale pine]

haha ye

[severe sluice]

crazy sim like didnt the rogue say its never haste for sub??

i dont understand this

im so cofused

[vale pine]

the "no haste" is just a general advise

if you look at

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[vale pine]

this thing

it maps the stats from an optimize gear profile

[civic tusk]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

so it shows how much of each stat subtlety uses compared to the highest stat

[acoustic matrix]

Is dungeon slice even reliable tho ?

[vale pine]

you can find the profile

[acoustic matrix]

Cause the APL throws cds at the end of the fight

[keen dome]

Very

[vale pine]

yes for gearing, for talents its always difficult to say

[acoustic matrix]

Is this a continuous fight ?

[vale pine]

are you not?

like

if the fight ends in 20 sec

would you hold your cooldowns?

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[acoustic matrix]

Depends if fight means whole sim or just this pack

[pseudo fiber]

so trust the sim?

[limpid sage]

I would be super interested in educational content around theorycrafting and think a lot of others would too

[vale pine]

if you look at the sim, you see this is the stat spread (last row is the amount of stats)

[keen dome]

Trust the sim for gearing, yes. But try to understand the why behind the gearing.

[proven plover]

tbh I'm holding 20sec if shit is dying and theres a big pull or boss coming up

[vale pine]

so to come back to haste

[limpid sage]

Very limited what you can find online regarding theorycrafting

[vale pine]

the amount of haste we have on this profile is

welll, mostly from tier set ^^

[proven plover]

like why would you send flag into a dying pack which will for sure die in 20 sec

[vale pine]

haste we can't avoid

but haste is not a completely terrible/unplayable stat

[proven plover]

just to be dry on the next pull

[keen dome]

Because it's the end of the sim

[vale pine]

especially during gearing to a gear profile like this

[keen dome]

And in that hypothetical situation there is nothing after it.

[vale pine]

it can be that you hit a breakpoint with trinkets/gear where haste benefits you

[keen dome]

So if it was the absolute final pack in a dungeon, wouldn't you send everything?

[proven plover]

yes thats what @acoustic matrix means

u are not doing that every 7 minutes

[pseudo fiber]

thanks, that helped ❤️

[vale pine]

but i would just in general

[keen dome]

Sims aren't reality. They are a simulated slice of something we use to figure out gear.

[vale pine]

also not use dropoptimizer

[keen dome]

They aren't something you look at and copy into reality.

[vale pine]

but use the gear lists i created from #tc-research

and sim gear in top gear

<#tc-research message>

because you can just copy/paste things from there and select what you want to compare

and don't run into problems of dropoptimizer

like it always only replacing the main trinket slot

or some other weirdness

[vale pine]

back to this

[loud brook]

Hi I can’t seem to find to answer for this but since sec tech and coup has multiple ticks of damage(not sure if coup has it or not, sounds like it) does using them on a low hp mob that died on first tick wasting the damage?

[vale pine]

basically, dungeon slice is the following.
It is a patchwerk fight, followed by alternating packs of mobs with randomized size and individual duration

[proven plover]

on coup yes its wasted, on sectec its not because the secondary hits are aoe anyway, so if your main target dies after initial hit, the other mobs are still getting hit by the secondaries

[vale pine]

it emulates a dungeon run in the way that it provides the ability for restealths, mechanical resets like triggering abilities which requires a "new enemy" and test how much of a trade off you have between st and aoe

its not perfect, which is why you see people often play diffrent talent setups

but it is a great estimate for a mixed fight like you have in dungeons

(and as such perfect for gearing decisions)

anecdotally, you can in theory do dungeon routes which is basically a mdi route export from the game

BUT

[proven plover]

actually not sure about sectec, am I wrong?

[vale pine]

if you do so, you have ONE singular static fight style

[keen dome]

In a hypothetical, but realistic combat scenario we can see which piece of gear is going to give us more damage. It's a useful tool for that.

[vale pine]

so in order to get a workable result you would need to add more routes, diffrent key levels and multiple dungeons

from testing

doing this, results in close to the same if not the exact same results than dungeon slice

at which point... you kind of lose reason to do it

[acoustic matrix]

Sure but let's take this from the APL for exemple

actions.cds+=/potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|fight_remains<30|buff.flagellation_buff.up

Let's say the pack is about to die and I have my potion up. Instead of sending it with cooldowns on next pack I'm just throwing it now ? How is that reliable ?

[vale pine]

but one thing thats kind of the superpower simualtions give you

[haughty mural]

tfw guild forces you to run droptimizer sims

[vale pine]

unlucky

[vale pine]

^ is that you can use diffrent simulations to evaluate

[keen dome]

Just pretend to do it and have the other one open

[vale pine]

like in a dungeon thats st heavy

you can compare diffrent talent layouts

and see how much aoe/st each of them does

and then select the one which fits your needs

[proven plover]

doesnt work, my guild is also doing it and they are forcing us to feed it into wowaudit, which they are checking when assigning loot via LC

[keen dome]

lmao

[vale pine]

i love it

guilds love to make up weird stuff

[keen dome]

They love to make everything more complex and stupid

[chrome fern]

this is why i love heroic only casual guilds, just send a need roll and hope for the best

[vale pine]

to annoy their raiders optimize loot distribution

[keen dome]

Hell yeah buddy

[vale pine]

you are in for a surprise

[haughty mural]

councils then still tends to distribute gear based on those droptimizer sims 😄

[vale pine]

even heroic guilds do loot council from what i saw

[keen dome]

The really bad ones do, yeah

[proven plover]

in hc guild its just to powertrip the management no?

xd

[chrome fern]

the closest thing our guild does, is we're limiting peeps to getting 2 tier tokens from raid till the whole team has it

[vale pine]

its also surprising

how many started to do splits

[keen dome]

Splits for heroic? Haha

[vale pine]

even tho they are very late CE or even don't get it

[haughty mural]

heroic guilds do splits ?

[keen dome]

Oh, for CE. That's kinda funny

[vale pine]

its like a plague

[vale pine]

no but more casual oriented mythic guilds

just to be clear, to not confuse people

casual for me just means low raid hours

[keen dome]

Gotta copy the how without understanding the why.

[vale pine]

so like 5-8h/week raiding

[keen dome]

So many people just blindly copy something without stopping to understand why it's done.

[proven plover]

lfr splits queueing as guild for trinkets to get curve

[vale pine]

haha

"looking for people to do raid finder, minimum item level 707"

[chrome fern]

i do this discord's head in by doing the opposite XD

[keen dome]

Haha

Never wrong to ask for the why of something imo

[acoustic matrix]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/WaDJp9NFgbQML1Kz?fight=5&type=casts&view=timeline&source=1
Does that look fine ? (it's aoe)

[vale pine]

you can do dance-secret-backstab-coup here too

basically its perfectly fine to start dance on finishing cp

the storm between coup here

is outside of shadow blades

you would just strike

[proven plover]

also u supercharged 2 black powders with your symbols instead of your beefed sectec

[vale pine]

i am unsure if the blank symbols was benfitial

just to visualize it

you delayed your cooldowns for quie a bit there

and this seems wrong

basically you would only flag with finishing cp

so flag-finish-dance

or flag-dance-finish

both is fine

the backstab there likely wated a lot of combo points

[silk gust]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[full marsh]

should I worry about maintaining unseen blade/flawless form in aoe or do I just storm and bp spam until cds are available?

[fair anchor]

Btw what do you do if you have coup up and you were about to dance (or even flag). You do coup, dance sectec, coup ?

[frigid light]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[short radish]

you have RLs malding their raiders are using speed enchants over avoidance

heroic prog guild btw

[keen dome]

If someone told me to drop Speed for avoidance I'd just... speedily avoid them

[maiden oar]

if i have 6 sht stacks and i press first coup in blades is there a downside to always queueing storm the gcd after?

sometimes if i go up to 7 while coup is ticking i cant react to it fast enough

[serene blaze]

how much crit we want for sub? is there any cap ? or we just stack vers mastery?

[maiden oar]

and i feel like i might lose a global in dance or something if i hold until i can visually confirm the refund after last coup tick

[serene blaze]

also what embelish we wanna play for m+ ? double symbiosis ? / linning?

[vale pine]

So basically:

• The cast sequence in shadow dance seems fine.
  • Shuriken storm between coup de grace casts is only played during Shadow Blades
• For cooldown management, you rly like to just send cooldowns and then wait till next 90 sec, which isn't inherently bad but will highly depend on bosses/pulls in m+. A aggressive use is in m+ usually better, so it seems fine.
• Some smaller mistakes like sending backstab on high energy, etc. i or others mentioned.
  Think the next step would be to play in raids/m+ and see where mistakes are.

[keen dome]

Sim them, they're all very close. Focus Lens is probably fine.

[chrome fern]

Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.

my deadass pleb ass can't do this 🙁

[vale pine]

don't worry

your very first shadow dance is 10 sec

so needs 10 globals

(if you play the first dance)

[chrome fern]

just looking at my logs, it's just cause i keep entering dance and my cadence is to wait a gcd, so i end up 0.5s lagged at the start

[vale pine]

dance is off gcd

you might send it too early

[chrome fern]

yeah, but i mean im pressing dance too close to previous spell

so gcd locked for next one

need to work on it

[vale pine]

you would still have enough room to send all gcds

but its tighter

ideally you start dance with your first ability tho

[chrome fern]

i do it right some times, but more often than not, im no

i find when dance opens with a finisher, i time it much better

example, only get 7

[vale pine]

just needs some practice

[clever holly]

Is there a macro or stuff that helps me with being dumb

Yesterday I tried clicking dance when one was still active for like 0.2 sec then I did sod like normal but since dance didn't go off I thought "mhh lag" and went on with dance and sod and ofc I hammered my buttons so 3x sod gone

[chrome fern]

did get it on this one