subtlety

[dusk stone]

i just set it as 1 on both bars

[warm marlin]

plus is nice for sin offspec

[dusk stone]

you just want as much cognitive overload minimized as possible

[terse wolf]

yea 1 seems a good key, i cant spam that button

[cursive vapor]

Doesn’t matter how you set up your bars, keys, whatever as long as you can press the right buttons at the right time

[loud brook]

is there a wa for how many unseen blade I have or whether it is up or not?

[dusk stone]

escalating blade WA

its also a buff

[terse wolf]

yes, overthinking it right now to get comfortable + fast button presses

[dusk stone]

go sit on a dummy for 2hrs with the rotation is best advice if you are new

[terse wolf]

yes, will do

[cursive vapor]

Yea repeating the opener can be very effective even if it sounds ‘boring’

[terse wolf]

im totally fine with doing it a couple hundred times to get the muscle memory down

but still fixing the action bars

is shuriken tornado ever used?

[cursive vapor]

Personal preference, most ppl I know dont play that atm

[loud brook]

escalating blade is like how many stack from coup right?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[dusk stone]

4 ES is 4 unseens

[patent lichen]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[loud brook]

i want to know does my next backstab/shadowstrike proc a unseen blade or not

like whether its 20 seconds cd is up or not

is it possibile to do that

[hazy breach]

No

[alpine wraith]

you can track the natural 20 secs cd

[vagrant fulcrum]

!macro

[terse wolf]

alrighty thanks

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[alpine wraith]

but not the resets from thousand cuts

so it is useless

[hazy breach]

The reset from thousand cuts is not trackable

[alpine wraith]

i know the LE wa does track the natural procs

[cursive vapor]

Once you got the burst rotation, opener and stuff right sub will blast baby lets go!

[alpine wraith]

but as eleem said and me before resets are unknown

[hazy breach]

Ye but its not 100% accurate

[vagrant fulcrum]

how bad is sectec + cb?

macro'd

[hazy breach]

If you dont have it on a seperate bind like -1.5%ish

[vagrant fulcrum]

it used to be a small loss to send 1st sectec instead of 2nd

[alpine wraith]

can be quite bad now

[vagrant fulcrum]

ill bind np

[alpine wraith]

because you will use it in bween then it wont be up for cds

[terse wolf]

haha, great.

mostly learning it so my friends can stop nagging me on outlaw

[vagrant fulcrum]

if it was like 0.5% id macro

[alpine wraith]

or use it first sec tech

[loud brook]

i feel like its useful to track it no? unfortune there is no way to do that

[icy pond]

Why this talent for raid ?

[alpine wraith]

then not have it for second that is the one that hits hard

[alpine wraith]

wm very weak

like super weak

[hazy breach]

Because weaponmaster is even worse

[rocky ocean]

[hazy breach]

Unless the fight is longer than ~7 minutes

Then its like the same

[rocky ocean]

Cinema

[cursive vapor]

Subs cooler anyway, playin one of the most difficult specs in the game that is skill

[icy pond]

i agree is useless for raid but why i see all rogue take this on raid talent

[hazy breach]

Again

4 seconds of dance

is stronger than weaponmaster

And you need to path through either of them for inev

[dusk stone]

its not a weak talent

[icy pond]

u have that for pull but u can't actif that during boss

[hazy breach]

Correct

Its only on pull

[lilac stag]

One day people will understand how dog shit weaponmaster is.

[icy pond]

This talent is good for M+ but i don't understand why in boss raid

[dusk stone]

its been explained 3 times

[hazy breach]

Read through my response

[dusk stone]

it literally sims higher than the other options

[vagrant fulcrum]

got me missing the rotten

[icy pond]

ok ok just for pull so

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

[dusk stone]

no, it sims higher for the entire fight

[rocky ocean]

[icy pond]

No need to be toxic, it's just surprising that we're now taking this talent in raids instead of Weaponmaster

[dusk stone]

i wasn't being toxic. It was explained multiple times and I was clarifying because there was confusion afaik

[rocky ocean]

Surely midnight will solve all these problems as well as death stalker

[lilac stag]

No one is toxic.

[formal helm]

[hexed sluice]

4 seconds of first dance > 7/8minutes of weaponmaster.

It looks so wrong, but math can't lie, except for when it does

[dusk stone]

TFD is just a really strong talent

its not just more damage, its more CDR

[rocky ocean]

Weaponmaster is just a really shit talent

[icy pond]

Okay fine

Why didn't we play it on S2? xD

[dusk stone]

because it didnt sim as high as the other options

[rocky ocean]

@faint basalt

[faint basalt]

?

[thorn haven]

Is SIM with Dungeonslice good for sub? m+

[vagrant fulcrum]

how important is sending the in between cb?

seeing a lot of logs only sending with blades

[void needle]

It isn't very

[magic ravine]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[void needle]

It's also very easy to misalign your cb doing this, you can see a couple parses where they end up not having cb for the second dance in blades which is where it's most important

[vagrant fulcrum]

what kinda % we talking

[hidden oar]

why on mythic Araz Forgeweaver all of teh rogues using eviscerate as finisher isntead of black powder? Shouldnt we use BP on 4 or more targets?

just to funnel a boss isntead of maximizing damage?

[alpine wraith]

you can do either

[vagrant fulcrum]

they do bp some of the time

[alpine wraith]

but bp will be more dmg

[mighty citrus]

in a raidsituation, would i ever storm if i have a dance active except the coup thingy or would i always use ss?

[void needle]

Yeah I'm ngl, we bp at 4+ targets now but it's not actually an insane amount more damage under 7 still. Prio damage is very good

[lucid jackal]

Because boss damage is more important lol

[somber tendon]

anyone have a working auto tricks weakaura/macro?

[void needle]

ss in blades with that one exception

[mighty citrus]

so never storm beside that one

thanks

oh you said blades, so it has nothing to do with dance

[void needle]

Well in dance

Even outside blades

ss is very strong

Plus you do want to maximize ub stacks, the storm is specifically so you don't waste free ub resets because of coup 4set

Outside of dance, storm is strong when it's a better cp generator than bs

[upper narwhal]

Man I'm loving Sub in keys this season

[void needle]

Outside of dance you can only get one ub stack every 20 seconds outside of random resets I have no idea how to track

Does anyone have a way to track thousand cuts resets?

[west tide]

cause in progression overall damage is way less important than boss damage esp on that fight

[upper narwhal]

The ads die whether you eviscerate or BP, but the boss dies faster if you eviscerate

[rocky ocean]

How come shado pan monks got their thing trackable and trickster didn’t

[dusk stone]

we dont have funnel

BP is generally also for padding

[void needle]

Yeah, it's technically prio instead of funnel. Funnel generally implies we do more st because of the other mobs

[dusk stone]

only funnel is DS sub and noone plays DS sub

[void needle]

I'll start doing it guys, I'll be the troll you want to see in your keys 😂

[mighty citrus]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

i dont think any of us have actually tested keys to know

[rocky ocean]

Sub ds would be sick if bp worked with ds mark

[void needle]

I tested it in s1 when it simmed higher, trust me you do NOT want to fuck around with DS

[dusk stone]

bp works with mark, just not darkest night afaik

[void needle]

Trickster is the far more enjoyable experience

[rocky ocean]

Oh right

[gleaming locust]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[dusk stone]

if bp didnt work, it would actually be so bad blizzard would fix it

[rocky ocean]

But isn’t it only because of cdr

[void needle]

None of the fw 30% extra replicated damage works with ds

[dusk stone]

i actually like the class fantasy of ds sub and i really want to play it, but y'know its ds sub so

[void needle]

Hour long tricks. ds mark is a bitch to manage. That prio damage profile we were just talking about. removes parry from the game.

[dusk stone]

thing is i could see arguments with it being more reliable aoe instead of just windows and the whole funnel thing

[rocky ocean]

Real funnel is better than prio damage

Also ds mark less bitch to manage because shadow dance

[void needle]

It's also overall less buggy than ds. Coup doesn't interact properly with anything, and nimble flurry is a sad shadow of what blade flurry is. But overall still much better experience

Ds is all about shadow and plague damage, but none of our spec shadow talents interact well with eachother or ds

[dusk stone]

idk our ST is quite high compared to assa

ds ST should theoretically follow and then you add funnel

[rocky ocean]

Nuclear disaster

[void needle]

Oh, also tier set for ds is dogshit

[dusk stone]

that is one reason im not trying it yeah

[warm marlin]

except that a lot of sub st comes from the trickster tree

idk ds is just so bad

bad to play bad output

Cooked tree

[dusk stone]

like is the output actually bad

[upper narwhal]

DS singletarget is much worse than trickster with worse cleave

[void needle]

Output is terrible

[rocky ocean]

Well then it sucks that hero talents stay for midnight

[warm marlin]

Trickster is great!

Better than some specs can say

[rocky ocean]

Then what’s the point of having 2 trees

[void needle]

With a rework/bugfixes on ds hopefully

[hazy breach]

It could be somewhat interesting if the gameplay loop was to always get 2 darkest nights in every dance

On ST

But the bug makes it not work

(the one where you cant go below 3 stacks if DN is up)

[dusk stone]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

OBviously aoe still needs work

[dusk stone]

whats the dslice for ds sub

[rocky ocean]

You mean buff bp?

[void needle]

Well that obviously didn't work and only made trickster even stronger in aoe soooo

[rocky ocean]

Ok nerf secret technique then

Got you

[misty condor]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[void needle]

Maybe if they baked the bp buff into ds properly or actually amped any of your replicated damage from fw

[rocky ocean]

They legit had 3 seasons to fix hero talents and failed

[void needle]

and made it work with replicating shadows

[rocky ocean]

At least assa fatebond was redeemed

[dusk stone]

did you run dslices for ds sub & trickster?

[void needle]

I'm not a raidbots preemo, I'm still in queue XD

[dusk stone]

i'd really like to run it if it was even somewhat competitive

[lyric lily]

At the exchange of a bug riddled mess of a spec 🤣

[native zodiac]

😎

[void needle]

gz

[topaz egret]

Cheater

[rocky ocean]

Baby steps

[dusk stone]

never been a fan of the thief archetypology from rogue/shadow/assassin

[void needle]

Wow, my ds simmed 15% lower in dslice

[dusk stone]

800k?

[void needle]

Over 1m

[tardy badge]

does the uh

cold blood ST macro now work anymore?

[desert bolt]

wallhacks

[tardy badge]

not*

[fallen hedge]

Is it really not worth finding a point somewhere to run Shuriken storm in M+? It feels so good to use hehe

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[desert bolt]

¨that trinket is not real

[dusk stone]

think thats more a result of the 4p for trickster being so good

[tardy badge]

ew

fucking blizz bro

ty

[hazy breach]

Its been like that since tww alpha

[desert bolt]

Im still running 2 trinks from s2 yall. Im cooked

[hazy breach]

But nobody has ever played fatebound before so

[desert bolt]

no drops from raid or m+

[void needle]

I'm not sure if there is a better build for ds

[tardy badge]

thats fair lowkey

[gleaming locust]

is dawn a CB or tea dungeon

[desert bolt]

I run cb on dawn at least

[gleaming locust]

will give it a try, thanks. I am pretty ass at sub for some reason

[void needle]

Whichever one you like more in m+ you can probably do either, its like 1-2% st damage with cb and like 1-2% aoe damage with tt

TT energy management is far better is why I run it most of the time

[fallen hedge]

Is thistle tea more overall dmg compared to CB in keys?

[lyric lily]

Do we use black powder past 5 mobs?

[desert bolt]

depends on the dungoen I think, but they are pretty close.

[fallen hedge]

Alright thanks 🙂

[hazy breach]

4 or more is bp

[lyric lily]

Ah okay

[fallen hedge]

Am I insane to think that shuriken storm is better than premeditation in M+?

[hazy breach]

Theres other talent i would drop if i wanted tornado

Premed too stronk

[fallen hedge]

What would that be? and why is premed stronk? Seems not that powerful to get a few extra CP out of every stealth, but what would you drop?

[hazy breach]

Veiltouched or replicating

[weary saffron]

get it pressing dance too

[hazy breach]

Its 4 cp every dance so it adds up

[lyric lily]

Coup de grace only reduces the CD of shadow dance and Secret tech, right?

[void needle]

It still spends cp for deepening shadows

[slate basin]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[slate basin]

anyone know a good unseen blade wa?

[vale pine]

le has a estimate weakaura

you find it from the link above

[slate basin]

in the class pack?

[vale pine]

yes

[slate basin]

ok tyty

[lyric lily]

Does sub get a buff from spreading DoTs like assa?

[fallen hedge]

Thanks for the help regarding a talent to drop if I want to try shuriken storm... On another note, how do you lots track when you get a full CP refresh from Shadowcraft talent?

[hazy breach]

There the sound trigger in the pack above

But i just have a number displaying the stacks

[meager merlin]

whats the difference between playing cold blood and tea in m+ ?

[misty condor]

^^ Sound effect trigger is pretty common

[hazy breach]

Like 1-2%

[rocky ocean]

I have a wa that plays cs1.6 knife sound

[fallen hedge]

Haha alright cool, will check it out and thanks

[meager merlin]

towards cold blood ?

[hazy breach]

Tea is roughly 1-2% better in aoe

CB is roughly 1-2% better in ST

[clever delta]

so how do i play on forge

i just send adds ?

[lyric lily]

Do we send coup de grace x2 inside shadowdance windows or wait until after?

[void needle]

It's your most efficient cp spender outside cd's. But no lethal dose, systemic failure, scent of blood type talents

[void needle]

Send it in dance 6+ cp

If you need cp sstorm between

[lyric lily]

Even in aoe?

[void needle]

Flurry damage go crazy, also 150% coup is insane damage

[lyric lily]

Kk ty

[north coral]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[lyric lily]

Ive noticed people are also running builds such as this; what is the major stark difference between that and the wowhead build?

More aoe for less st?

[void needle]

This is just the standard m+ build. It's far more comfortable to play but sims lower than finality and tornado in aoe specifically

[left parcel]

maybe a stupid question but should we be sending shadow dances on cooldown since they come up so often?

in m+

[uneven ginkgo]

Hell yeah abc

[void needle]

Ehhhhhh, still bank dance for your blades

[hazy breach]

Yesnt

[uneven ginkgo]

I think u want max stacks though going i to cd’s is all

[hazy breach]

Highest priority is to make sure you can ALWAYS cast two sectechs, two dances and two symbols during blades

[dusk stone]

the rotten

[wild hornet]

with tfd is it better to hit a sectec at the end of a dance with the possibility of the akaari souls getting none of the danse stacks or getting both sectec and akaari with 1/2 danse stacks?

[dusk stone]

guaruntees find weakness on next 2 builder

[hazy breach]

You want to hit sectech asap

[void needle]

Always supercharge your sectechs

[wild hornet]

best as i can to keep it in the same dance?

[void needle]

First two spenders every sod dance

[hazy breach]

I mean it depends on how you proc

But use it asap

[lyric lily]

At around what time do you guys start stacking shadow dances? When blades is about 20s from coming off CD?

[wild hornet]

gotcha thanks

[dusk stone]

25 seconds in m+, 30-35 seconds on m+ bosses, 30-40 seconds in raid depending

[hazy breach]

~25, but again, as long as you can ALWAYS cast two sectechs, two dances and two symbols during blades its fine either way

[dusk stone]

you can hold for 3 dances as well

[void needle]

Where are you getting 3 dances?

Get me that

[lyric lily]

I didnt even know we had 3 dances

[wild hornet]

maybe he means the cdr from the 2

during flag

[dusk stone]

if you wait for almost 2 full charges you get 3 from cdr

[wild hornet]

somethings telling me this isnt optimal

[dusk stone]

i do not like using prism with 2 dances to be honest

3 dances is probably optimal but it is just hard to guaruntee you wont waste

same with 18 stack prism

[wild hornet]

just use hoc

[lyric lily]

How much CDR does a single SD typically give ?

[hazy breach]

As long as youre not sitting overcapping your charges it doesnt matter

[hazy breach]

If you have 1 charge and 30 seconds left as you go into flag its fine

[dusk stone]

i just really dont like flag lasting for what 25? prism lasting for 20 and sending 16 seconds worth of dances

[lyric lily]

Oh wow

Thats huge CDR

[dusk stone]

that only really works right for blades

maybe you argue it works if you have tfd but that also not reliable

[fallen hedge]

Is there a cast time on prism?

[dusk stone]

no

[cunning shuttle]

On bigger pulls like the first one in Gambit are we just spamming Shuriken Storm/Black Powder?

[dusk stone]

no you aren't suppose to spam shuriken storm in cds

always strike it builds ES blade, puts FW on targets, and does a lot of damage

[lyric lily]

Back stab > black power

[hazy breach]

Strike

Youd storm over backstab when youre not in dance

[cunning shuttle]

Makes sense thanks

[dusk stone]

387,267 vs vs 71.026

you tell me

[empty hamlet]

Following the generator question, what about the spender
Do we BP always on 4+ targets? Or do we send evis in cooldowns

[hazy breach]

Yes always

Sectech > Coup > Evis/BP depending on target count, so 4 or more for BP

[west tide]

is that in sdance too or is it different count

[hazy breach]

Dance doesnt change anything

[humble quarry]

When were buildung coup in aoe, we use BP as a spender aswell until we coup right?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[trim jasper]

guys im looking for spell ID of buff 4pz tier set trickster that allows the use of Coup de Grace a second time within 5 seconds THX

or name of buff ill find id

[hazy breach]

If you just track the escalating blade buff for regular coups it should show

You dont need anything extra

[lime field]

Could someone explain to me how the double on use trinket set up works. Trying to use both during CDS or how is this working?

[rain kernel]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

You rotate them, so one per set of cds

Which is why it only really works with exactly prism+forge

Because if youre using anything else youre just wasting your time

As they wont be strong enough at 3 minutes to warrant it

[thorny ridge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lime field]

Got it was curious because I currently have a lilly + Prism and sims were saying that was better than Lilly + pacemaker which didnt make sense to me with lilly being a minute thirty cd.

[hazy breach]

With lily you'd use lily at 0, 90s and then use prism at 180 while you hold lily for 270

So its kinda cursed

Would recommend to just play prism+pace

[crisp lion]

On frac during the wall break can you step back to boss to avoid the knock back? Or does that brick breaking the walls?

[hazy breach]

It bricks breaking the walls

[wet plank]

Referring to number 2 on the coup command, do I send shuriken storm even if I’m at max combo points for the Danse stack or don’t bother with the overcap and back to back coups

[hazy breach]

No you would not use a builder if you are at max combo points

Its not for the macabre stack

Its to save the unseen blade

[crisp lion]

That stinks. Getting back to melee is tough

[fallow flint]

Hello, i'm trying Sub for 2 days, doing 13 14 with it from today, i was wondering, when shall i save my DEATH SYMBOLS, SHADOW DANCE,

[sullen hare]

Hmm I'm not sure which bot command that is

!sod maybe?

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[sullen hare]

Nope

[lethal yew]

Can you shadowstep while holding the mailroom package in tazavesh hardmode?

[sullen hare]

Generally I start pooling stuff around 25 or so sec left on CDs but I'll let an actual brain come in here and correct me

[hazy breach]

You should always have atleast this when you want to press flag (which is on cooldown unless the pack is already dead etc)

Could lower the 40 to 35/30 to be extra safe, but 40 should be fine

[sullen hare]

Ah I guess I'm just playing super safe lol

[hazy breach]

If you have this when flag is up and you do the flag+blades window correctly thats like 85-90% of the way there to perfect play

Everything revolves around this burst window

[floral dove]

Sub > assa in m+?

[terse wolf]

all 3 nearly same

[cursive vapor]

play what you like more

[dusk stone]

god i hate tanks who decide its a great idea to chain pull 3 mobs all dungeon

[terse wolf]

does shadowmeld fix this issue?

[dusk stone]

you mean for tfd?

[terse wolf]

to go out of combat and be able to stealth

[grave delta]

are these dmg numbers a wa or an addon...

[dusk stone]

we don't need stealth for stuff aside from tfd

when a tank pulls 3 mobs two things happen 1.) you are absolutely cucked on one of your most important talents in keys and 2.) which pack of mos are you gonna send flag and 18 stack prism on

the answer is 3.) shuriken toss mobs to fix the issue

[terse wolf]

ah yea you need 6 seconds, very new to sub

[dusk stone]

for TFD this is how it works, stealth breaks combat but distance near mobs sometimes still breaks tfd counter, you need to be 10-15 meters away

stealth before bosses also won't start the timer if tank pulls boss.... for some reason

[dusk stone]

the opener and guides optimize for whats worth using to get DM stacks

the problem with DM is dance and blades are on a very short timer and you can't really afford to use low output abilities while in burst

[mystic bough]

addon, nameplate scrolling combat text

[winter harbor]

If you are in your dance and coup procs do you stop using shadowstrike as a builder and use storm instead or is this only an outside of cooldowns thing

[dusk stone]

you use storm to not proc extra ES blade stacks because you can't build them with 4p

strike procs ES blade

wasting ES blade is bad

[hazy breach]

During shadow blades only

[spiral pewter]

guyz how can we understand that moment in huge aoe, after u land ruptures u start with evises then in some point spamm black powder and in some point spamm evis. What we should fallow to understand it?

[hazy breach]

Not worth during regular dance

[hazy breach]

4 or more BP

[spiral pewter]

but when Coup active we should use evis?

[hazy breach]

Yes use coup

[spiral pewter]

ok ty

[dusk stone]

you BP at 3 or 4 more targets with find weakness, you evis at 3 or less without FW

[winter harbor]

ok so if in shadowblades and dance then use storm to generate after coup but if in normal dance continue to shadowstrike

[dusk stone]

unless its 7 targets and high CP yeah

[winter harbor]

im assuming because point generation is so shit without blades up

[spiral pewter]

this mid max is crazy at sub :p

[dusk stone]

the goal is to send high CP coup without losing ES blade stacks

[winter harbor]

yeah im mostly talking about raid and st-ish

[honest yacht]

lol i've been thinking that i am starting to get a hang of subtlety and then i went and did an 8 and 37 % Ilvl parse for first to raidbosses on normal..

[hoary moat]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

did you read the guide?

[hoary moat]

is there an aura for supercharged CPs?

how do i track this

[swift tinsel]

Do you use a combo point weakaura

[hoary moat]

yeah

[dusk stone]

there should be a visual indicator on your CP

it turns blue

[hoary moat]

i have a WA for cps

[swift tinsel]

Can change cp 1 and 2 to change color when charged

[hoary moat]

thanks

[swift tinsel]

With conditions

[warm ibex]

any1 having problem with cold blood? don't work on sub spec

[honest yacht]

yeah i've read the guides a couple of times and thought i was doing everything right. but must be that i get to stressed in the raid from it being severyl disorganized

[swift tinsel]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[sturdy moat]

would yall use netherprism or lily in dungeons

[hoary moat]

both right?

arent the two of those basically BiS

[sturdy moat]

afaik you choose one passive and one on use

[hoary moat]

Exile was using Prism + Ritual Forge on their kill i think

for M Dimensius

[sturdy moat]

i think for damage amps that works but idk where id use the double on use in dungeons

[hoary moat]

mm yeah fair

[honest yacht]

in m+ i usually do 5.5-6.5 overall which i think is okay. but must have messed up bad since i only did 2.7 on plexus and 3.7 on loomithar

[hazy breach]

Its either passive+prism or prism+forge

You wouldnt really use two other on-uses

[sturdy moat]

what is special about prism forge?

[hazy breach]

Theyre good

[sturdy moat]

fair enough, ill get a forge, how do you line them up?

[hazy breach]

Most of their power is in the active on-use effect

Whereas most other trinkets have most of their power in the passive

[vivid cobalt]

doesnt it also have longer cd

[hazy breach]

But antenna+prism is about the same or stronger than double on-use

Except on something like mythic dimensius

[sturdy moat]

so I just alternate them on blades?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[sturdy moat]

ok

[twilit phoenix]

@tepid trellis found a pic you bro

[terse wolf]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[tame agate]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[alpine wraith]

is wclogs fucky for anyone else?

nothing loads

[brazen meadow]

Is there any niche changes to rotation this season?

[hazy breach]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[hazy breach]

#2

[clever delta]

sub feel so nice to play on forge

big numbers

[alpine wraith]

big numbers big slow

[hazy breach]

The 30% nerf on the adds

Really sucks man

Things die before i get to bang most of the time

[karmic harbor]

how do i sim for forgeweaver mythic?

[hazy breach]

Just do ST

[next otter]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[clever delta]

so im sending dances only with adds and dmg amps

[hazy breach]

Its not entirely representative ofc but its not that far off

[clever delta]

its kinda easy timing

[hazy breach]

Spec is mostly the same in terms of stats n stuff anyway

[nova matrix]

is it a gain to use shuriken to not waste disorienting strikes if you're not in between 4pc coups? like say you enter flag+blades with 4x escalating blades already, can you go:
backstab -> sectech -> shuriken -> coup -> (SHT refund) -> coup?

[hazy breach]

Yes

You just dont want to storm twice

[dusk stone]

got severely cucked by stuff dying too quick in 12 fg

but yeah sub good

also, prism really sucks on 1st pulls

[hazy breach]

Yeah but it really bangs later on

So its fine

[dusk stone]

if that was shammy i woulda hit almost 9

the good parse diff really is just tanks

[keen moon]

playing sub, how long do i keep CDs until flagellation come back?

[hazy breach]

Shaman would not be 11% dps no, more like 3%

[hazy breach]

25-30 is a good baseline

[dusk stone]

did something severely change with its buff?

[hazy breach]

No

[dusk stone]

it was like 10% on sim last tier

[hazy breach]

It wasnt

[keen moon]

ty

[hazy breach]

It was like 6% in fuus sims because he was using a scuffed talent setup with like 1 charge of symbols etc

But with actual talents its like 3% in aoe

Because the extra combo points arent needed as much as they are on ST

[dusk stone]

i mean double bp is really good no

when i did my sims and i was at like 1.9 it went up to like 2.030

i suppose that is 6% but also not aoe

[potent relic]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[dusk stone]

yeah dslice puts shammy at like 4-5%

[slate hinge]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[slate hinge]

But how buggy is assassination

that sub has to deal with assa bugs

[hazy breach]

Sub has way more bugs than assa

We've just surrendered

[dusk stone]

so what warrior buff is more preffered than shaman is what i take from this

[void needle]

.

Fuu linked sims earlier

Warrior buff is best

Monk over shaman buff even

[dusk stone]

the hell

i did a bunch of sims last tier and buffs were more relevant than that

[void needle]

blizz is actively reducing value of raid buffs constantly

[dusk stone]

did stuff significantly change?

warrior is the same apparently

[void needle]

Not really for most of them

Big ones are dh and druid getting slammed

[dusk stone]

why is fuu saying #1 skyfury is big

maybe its a warrior tank ig

[pliant topaz]

i missed the systems stream thingy today did they announce anything interesting?

[void needle]

Yeah, I usually skip monk buff tbh. I like having shaman heals and warr tank though

[dusk stone]

apparently monk is more important than shaman

[void needle]

I like the utility sham brings. Definitely the best stops wise

[dusk stone]

ill ask him later ig

[shrewd lantern]

I just feel warrior tanks pull bigger

because more warrior tanks are dpsbrained

[void needle]

It's a half percent min/max if you have to choose between sham and monk buff.

[shrewd lantern]

[dusk stone]

it depends, had a dh earlier who refused to pull more than 2 mobs in an eco and it was cancer

[shrewd lantern]

Bro is scared

[void needle]

Because I like rshaman, and don't feel great about mw most of the time. I'm not filling a dps slot with ww for monk buff either lmao

[shrewd lantern]

meanwhile dh gets tankier the bigger the pull

[dusk stone]

yeah monk isnt in a good place, i could kinda justify it last tier

[shrewd lantern]

Idk how anyone plays vdh pulling small

[dusk stone]

seems actively bad now, but i havent ran with one to know

[shrewd lantern]

its so boring especially since the tierset doesnt give hunt resets

[void needle]

idk how anyone plays pulling small

[dusk stone]

pug life

[alpine wraith]

i did a downbreaker 11

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah but dh is especially bad

[alpine wraith]

tank was pulling 3 by 3

aaaaaaaaaAAaAAAAaaA

[shrewd lantern]

since they have funnel damage

[alpine wraith]

and was losing aggro

[shrewd lantern]

and way higher soul generation pulling big

[dusk stone]

with the damage nerfs and stuff and this being a 'dps tier' for keys and our lack of gear, what is a 12 atm compared to last season with turbo boost

14?

[shrewd lantern]

Dropping a sigil of spite on a big group after brand spread on it

[versed swift]

Correct me if Im wrong, trying to wrap my head around the changes in prep for forge prog.
We only shuriken storm when
A) we get the 4 set proc to use coup twice
&
B) unseen blade is already on the target
both of those have to be true to shuriken storm?

[void needle]

Nah

Shuriken storm if you need cp between 1st and 4 set coup

[dusk stone]

unseen on target has nothing to do with it afaik

you want to avoid proccing unseen blade between coups while under shadow blades is the thing

[void needle]

You can't stack more unseen with the coup buff

[next otter]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[versed swift]

so youre using shuriken storm to generate combo points , this avoids "wasting" an unseen blade , since you cant apply a new one until after the 2nd coup is used?

[void needle]

Yep

[versed swift]

gotcha

[void needle]

Because sectech gives you two cd resets on ub procs

[versed swift]

now that makes sense

so its basically every time you get tier proc to use coup twice, if you need combo points, shuriken storm

when in shadowdance

[void needle]

During dance yes

[versed swift]

makes sense

ty ty

[cedar willow]

anyone got some insight on how sub scales until max ilvl this patch?

[hazy breach]

Idk what you mean

[void needle]

Like with gear? Getting 4 set, mythic mh, and trinkets. Huge upgrade. Past that it slows down once you hit secondary stat dr's which is around 710 ilvl which gets you about 30% crit and vers, and about 100% mast

[alpine wraith]

stats dr do not matter much

just some things give more %

then afterwards it is just normal ilvl upgrades

[void needle]

Yeah, so you won't be gaining as much per ilvl once you hit dr's. Which I think was his question with scaling

[cinder axle]

Do you guys play netherprism + Passiv trinket or would u go Lily + Prism?

[void needle]

5ilvl increase before dr > than 5 ilvl increase after dr

[cinder axle]

I dont have the Forge trinket so my other choice would be lily

[void needle]

I wouldn't run double on use unless you have forge

[lucid jackal]

This double on use shit is gonna be crazy lol

Double on use is only worth considering if you have forge.

Otherwise just do prism + passive

[pine swift]

will it be changed ? it's just feel strange

[lucid jackal]

Forge and prism isn't even that crazy lol

[cinder axle]

So prism beats lilly right

[lucid jackal]

What will be changed

[lucid jackal]

By a massive margin yes

[pine swift]

ahh wrong discussion hahaha

[cinder axle]

I thougt because we are a 1:30 min class i just need time to build the stacks

[dusk stone]

I looked at stat weights on my friend's dh and went wow, it's a margin of like 40-50% almost

[cinder axle]

and can cover my burst with lily

but thx

[dusk stone]

No wonder why we scale like crap as patch goes on

[lucid jackal]

Nope not needed

The only reason that forge prism is good is because forge and prism take turns

But again, this combo isn't even that good

[warm marlin]

should not be thinking about double on use as a way to cover prism weaknesses

[lucid jackal]

Like u can do it, it has its pros and cons

[warm marlin]

its the other way around

[lucid jackal]

But it's not like. Core

[warm marlin]

prism allows you to play forge without trolling every other cd set

[lucid jackal]

Ya

[void needle]

Yeah, we're gonna suffer for it especially next season. The classes that don't have dead stats will be able to scale better, when even dr'd to fuck in all other stats haste is still trash

[warm marlin]

any of these shorter cd things are just bad, you're playing a 90s on use trinket to use it every 3mins

or with crap random dances

[lucid jackal]

Stat scaling isn't a real thing

[cinder axle]

thanks then i just run Crystal and Prism

[alpine wraith]

it is but it is not as important as people think

[warm marlin]

if forge was 3mins and bigger stat though double on use would go crazy

[valid vault]

is it worth using lily and netherprism in m+ or just stacking nether and using seaforium

[lucid jackal]

[alpine wraith]

like sure you may get some classes getting some extra dps per stat or whatever

[cinder axle]

lol

xD

[alpine wraith]

then next week blizz decides LUL buff x by 6%

then it is whatever

[void needle]

Lmao true

[alpine wraith]

like sub and outlaw have not "scaled" well with gear for a bit

still do decently fine for the most part

even if in later weeks we get rolled it is what it is

we are very strong on first weeks at least

[void needle]

I don't see blizz helping us for a while with tuning though. Given how we aren't massively "underperforming" in raid

[deft rain]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[dusk stone]

What am I suppose to take from the following:

1.) We scale very poorly the later a patch goes on

2.) Item level goes up significan tly as patch goes on, item level increases stats

And the differential in weights is huge

[surreal knoll]

Does anyone know if there is a way to make Ritual Forge + Netherprism into just one macro, or do i have to manually switch between them every other blades?

[lucid jackal]

Scaling isn't real

[dusk stone]

Why and how?

[alpine wraith]

yea this is not cata or mop where sub had sinister calling so it just outscaled assa and combat

because blizz cba'd to ever buff things mid patch

[lucid jackal]

Because encounter design has more to do with how good a spec is more than "gaining 6% dps rather than 8% dps with 5 ilvl"

[alpine wraith]

or busted trinks that gave like 46% dps

[dusk stone]

It's more like 8% over 4% though

[alpine wraith]

to one spec but on the other it was wang

they are very conservative with trinks

[shrewd lantern]

People play double on use in rwf

suddenly people losing their minds

[lucid jackal]

Yes

They all had forge and prism

So ppl just think u need double on use in general

[shrewd lantern]

who woulda thought more burst trinkets on damage amps more often

would be good

[upper narwhal]

i really like double on use with prism

[lucid jackal]

Forge is the only double on use worth using

[shrewd lantern]

yeah but it needs forge to do good

[lucid jackal]

And there are a handful of trinkets that are also just better than forge anyway

[shrewd lantern]

lily kind of piss if you dont send it on cd

[lucid jackal]

Dh trinket, antenna

[shrewd lantern]

yeah sigil of cosmic looks large

for any spec that can use direct damage procs

[upper narwhal]

forge allowing you to stack prism and not lose out on your other cd's is peak

giga burst

[lucid jackal]

Yeah it's alright

It's the only double on use worth using and it's only "pretty good$

[upper narwhal]

sent a 30m burst in M+ today basically soloed the paladins pull in priory

[cedar willow]

mostly like last patch, where I feel like we started super hot and gained very little as we geared compared to other classes

[frail kindle]

That’s more fight designy

[lucid jackal]

Well the bigger issue was that every spec in the game got buffed

Not "poor scaling m"

[upper narwhal]

this raid's fights really favour sub

[lucid jackal]

And the niches that sub solved for, stopped being things that needed to be solved

[alpine wraith]

yea warr after buffs goes hard

remember our secret 10% buff

then suddenly SUB IS SO FUN

we will have our 2 weeks but i think sub will still be good on nexus king and dimensius forever

our timers just match so well

[dusk stone]

Yeah that was what happened last patch we got buffed out of usefulness

[lucid jackal]

Sub was good, but worse than ww, then mugzee was the best sin fight in the game, and then sin got buffed, and then reel assistants got nerfed, and then every other dps spec in the game got buffed except sub

[alpine wraith]

even if people outcleave us on araz or outsts us on others or ignore second wave of adds on soulbinder or whatever

[dusk stone]

But also we weren't good to begin with

[lucid jackal]

It had 0% to do with "scaling"

[cinder axle]

btw do we use Prism with every 1:30 burst window or do we sometimes hold it for a big stacked burst? 😄

[alpine wraith]

you can choose either

that is the beatiful thing

[frail kindle]

Like ansurek for example sub started out the patch not that bad cuz the adds kinda lived, as you get more gear and adds on fights just start disappearing certain specs look worse or better, nothing to do with scaling

[alpine wraith]

dust helped a lot on ansurek

[dusk stone]

I supposer tertiary stats don't scale that much either ilvl either

[alpine wraith]

afterwards it got weird

[floral dove]

whats the ideal talents? some are using TFD some are not

[dusk stone]

Would be mostly a primary stat thing

[alpine wraith]

tfd always

[upper narwhal]

sub's damage profile will never not be useful for prog at the end of the day

[alpine wraith]

wm is trolling mostly

[lucid jackal]

Well they turned off webs as a mechanic

That was more the thing about queen

[stone oracle]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lucid jackal]

The silken tombs needed to be killed by fury/sub

[floral dove]

!talents

[lucid jackal]

And then they nerfed them

[dusk stone]

I mean if that is true we should t lose that much relevance in throughput through the patch

That would be nice

[shrewd lantern]

the scaling is asking devs

for aura buffs

[lucid jackal]

Just play the spec cuz it's fun who gives a fuck about week 7 balance

Live in the moment stop stressing about full bis 14 Nerf raid tuning

[dusk stone]

I mean yeah

It's just frustrating to get gapped by a dk all patch and be literal garbo in raid

[next otter]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[lucid jackal]

But the spec isn't..?

[dusk stone]

I am basically a 1 trick myself in the mmos I play

[upper narwhal]

the spec that topped dimensius is actually garbage in raid

[dusk stone]

Last tier

We were talking about last tier for sub being garbo

[upper narwhal]

even last tier it was comparable with Sin on a number of bosses

[burnt loom]

for ansurek i swapped assa to sub just to not deal with deathstalker's mark anyway. got CE just as well etc

[shrewd lantern]

I mean sub was fine on prog

[upper narwhal]

imo Sub > Ass for gally prog

[lucid jackal]

Sub was better on queen

[shrewd lantern]

besides mugzee was better for sin

[dusk stone]

Gally was like the one fight sub was ok on

I actually got ok parses on it

[warm marlin]

it was strong on oab and rik as well

[lucid jackal]

Sub was good on everything until they buffed sin

[shrewd lantern]

oab

[floral dove]

are the pinned talent builds still the optimal ones?

[lucid jackal]

It was very good on Rik, stix, oab

[shrewd lantern]

when the reels had hp

[dusk stone]

Oab as well but that's just us killing adds

[warm marlin]

[lucid jackal]

Which was the encounter..?

[lucid jackal]

Yes

[upper narwhal]

killing ads was the boss

[floral dove]

so no shuriken storm

tornado i mean

[dusk stone]

I mean sure, but being bottom of meters isn't great

[lucid jackal]

Tornado sucks yeah

[lucid jackal]

Do you care about topping the meters or being a good spec

[dusk stone]

Both

[lucid jackal]

[dusk stone]

I've done this I have the important role but my numbers don't reflect it shit for years

[warm marlin]

it also wasn't bottom until later in the patch and then it got buffed

[lucid jackal]

The spec is also turbo broken rn just play it and be happy

[dusk stone]

I guess i am overly tilted at last patch because I got the ass end of the stick, and then got the renown debuff with -15% for 4 weeks

[lucid jackal]

Move on bro

[dusk stone]

True

[lucid jackal]

It's literally the best dps in the raid

Move on

[dusk stone]

What do you think they are nerfing in the raid

[lucid jackal]

Specs? Literally none of them

[shrewd lantern]

I mean not having the aura buff is gonna make any spec look bad

[dusk stone]

For the fights

[lucid jackal]

The encounters? Probs only the last 2

[warm marlin]

i dont think ele destro are going to make it out

[lucid jackal]

They are good but they aren't broken

But I said the same thing abt ww

But i think dps is legit balance d this tier idk

Other than dps warrior kinda ass

[dusk stone]

What changes on dimensius, p3 and add hp in p2?

[warm marlin]

arms is top 3 now on mythic logs idk

[lucid jackal]

Bro

[warm marlin]

8% and the good warriors swapped

[upper narwhal]

there's a couple specs that could use buffs but the top end is pretty even

[lucid jackal]

Go look at the actual fights it's so ass

It's only good on soulbinder

Full aoe build

[warm marlin]

i dont know shit about warrior so fair enough

[lucid jackal]

It's shameless

[warm marlin]

i think boomie will get buffed and ele/destro will get nerfed

[lucid jackal]

Probs

[dusk stone]

What fight is your guild on guy

[lucid jackal]

Saladar

[dusk stone]

Stuck at hps check or

[lucid jackal]

0 pulls

[dusk stone]

It really seems like a fun fight

I actually really like the raid with the exception of frac

[warm marlin]

i am upset that they overnerfed forge and frac

[lucid jackal]

Forge Nerf was absurd

[dusk stone]

They nerfed forge already?

Was this days ago

[lucid jackal]

The balls on forge used to be 2x as fast

[warm marlin]

they executed forge on live tv

[lucid jackal]

Lol

[hazy breach]

30% hp on adds was way overkill when they nerfed the speed

[lyric lily]

How important is it to spread dots to mobs on the first pull of a m+ key?

[hazy breach]

On reset yes

[dusk stone]

What changed

[hazy breach]

Lots

[alpine wraith]

speed and hp of adds

and other things

[warm marlin]

and the window to kill the collectors at the same time went from 3s to 10s

[hazy breach]

If the mobs are already stacked just send cds, if mobs are being gathered rupture

[warm marlin]

and the boss hp got hit (by 10%)

[alpine wraith]

this one is big for holding cds

[warm marlin]

and the speed that the lines go out got halved

[dusk stone]

It depends. You kind of have to balance it with how fast mobs Will die. I didn't even hit 20 and spread too many ruptures in my last 12 fg

[lucid jackal]

Yeah they nerfed tf out of the fight

[hazy breach]

We pushed the second amp too fast so my sectech was 0.5s late

[alpine wraith]

yea prebaiting was annoying

[lucid jackal]

Kinds crazy

[hazy breach]

[warm marlin]

and fractillus only difficulty was being a tuning fight

and they just shot him too

[alpine wraith]

exile explained dimensius amp on M too what a rush

[warm marlin]

[alpine wraith]

he got the sec tech at 1.6 on amp left

[dusk stone]

60mil sectec man

[gleaming locust]

random question (I know stats are a sim angle and that asking I am going to be told that) Is 103% mastery full unbuffed a bit uhh overkill?

[dusk stone]

Like God dayyum

[alpine wraith]

i have 112% mastery right now and it is fine

you can ahve more or less in the end ilvl kinda rules the world

[dusk stone]

Idk the Dr's this patch robot tells me at like 104 to go after crit and vers

Which is wild because I have 25% vers

[alpine wraith]

just whatever you do dont be me in 2 weeks and buy a M full mastery boe ring

[gleaming locust]

yeah agi > secondaries for sure was just curious

[alpine wraith]

to look silly

[dusk stone]

Agi doesn't scale that well for us actually

It's like les than vers atm

Just gear gives more of it

[hybrid compass]

I am watching casual's sub rogue vid from now and he does flag rupture -> ss -> spreading more ruptures -> then the rest of the opener, is this how I should play the packs? if they can stay alive for that long ofc

[dusk stone]

I had a 681 crafted bracers and a 701 with haste was 20k more so

If he spreading ruptures inside of flag? That doesn't sound normal

[lucid jackal]

Feels like it delays Cd's too much but u can do it ig

[warm marlin]

flag before rupture spreading just makes your burst bigger by ramping flag earlier

[dusk stone]

The opener sometimes says to spread rupture twice

[warm marlin]

but you lose a bit of flag in your 3rd dance

[hazy breach]

Just send asap really

[dusk stone]

You just want minimal loss of damage inside of cds

[warm marlin]

i try not to do it because i never actually look at blades cooldown and then next cds i start my dance thinking blades is ready since flag was up

[dusk stone]

Casual got like 11.2 overall with sin in 18 halls yesterday

Highest sub parse I saw was like 9 something

[upper narwhal]

halls is a decent assa dungeon, can pull mobs to every boss if you want

[winter harbor]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hybrid compass]

oh and what buffs/debuffs should I track on my plater as sub? I took my plater from my friend but he had like nothing added there and I have only ruptures here as I played assa

[dusk stone]

Boss 4?

Boss 3 kinda limited too but idk

Sub also cranks with boss trash

I was at like 16mil for demolition duo in my key earlier

[hybrid compass]

on boss 3 they pulled casters i think and on boss 4 they had like some of the semiboss adds coming

[dusk stone]

I'll have to check ig

[dusk stone]

Find weakness, that's it rly I never touched debuffs on mine and I see it all

[brisk onyx]

do we pick gloom blade in Fractillus?

[alpine wraith]

no

[dusk stone]

I asked the same thing and have no idea

[alpine wraith]

it is better to storm to get fw no joking

[dusk stone]

Dk if you can even sim for that

[brisk onyx]

hmm i'll try

[dusk stone]

I would sim for what talents your losing

And see how much fw gives

I was told gloom is horrible to path into

[brisk onyx]

i think Hachadino is right lol

[dusk stone]

Prob

Strike also gives fw so your downtime prob isn't that much

[warm marlin]

Gloomblade is around a 2-3% loss to take
Standing in front of the boss (and getting parried while fazed is down, while frac doesn’t parry iirc) is a 2-3% loss

[subtle pulsar]

is this normal?

I didn't think coup de grace would be on top

[alpine wraith]

yea with new 4 set coup is on top

[dapper jasper]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[upbeat parcel]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[upbeat parcel]

can i macro Flagellation and Shadow Blades?

[dusk stone]

No

Flag lasts 24ish econds, blades last 16. Two dances is 16 outside of tfd

[shrewd lantern]

Only thing to really macro is 90s trinket and orc racials to blades

[upbeat parcel]

i thaught cause flagellation and shadow dance or both on a 1.5 min cooldown and i think shadow dance is ogcd

but ok thx for the answer

[night sparrow]

I have prism and forge, I personnally /use 13 /use 14 since Forge is placed as first trinket and isnt available for the second burst, it automatically use Prism, then Forge for the 3rd burst etc

[shrewd lantern]

I mean the “correct” way to play is have 2 seperate use 13 and 14 macros

on their own keys

[night sparrow]

Alexz you need to Flag > rupture > dance+symb > backstab > sectec and only there you shadow blades

[upbeat parcel]

ah i forgot about the the ruptur inbetween

yeah makes sense

[night sparrow]

rupture or evis btw if rupture already applied, but first burst always rupture yes

[upbeat parcel]

yeah didnt play sub for years now thats why i ask

[night sparrow]

I mean I might be wrong, but to me it just sounds like more buttons for no reason so I've put Pot + 13 + 14 + SB in my macro

[shrewd lantern]

Situational uses

I mean I have no shortage of binds

[upbeat parcel]

i am on assa the whole time. but i kinda loos interest with the million bugs on him right now.. some raidfights are clunky with the deathstalkers mark .. its getting annoying

[hazy breach]

If you end up delaying your cds then it will use forge instead of prism

[vivid cobalt]

is the projector trinket any good in m+

[hazy breach]

Which can happen quite a lot in keys

[hazy breach]

Not really no

[night sparrow]

true

[haughty widget]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dusk stone]

Oh wow for spec popularity sin and even worse sub are way below the top spots in keys

I guess it's just that rogue diff

[shrewd lantern]

No one likes playing rogue

[dusk stone]

Like 85% of your damage comes from doing the burst correctly, having stuff land outside of most important part of your burst window is not good

[upbeat parcel]

so at least i am not the only one

[night sparrow]

So I guess another way to put trinket in macros would be placing Forge in it, and having a separated key for the prism. So I activate prism milliseconds before my SB+Forge macro and it should work right ?

[dusk stone]

I actually bind flag to F

There's less cog overload with it like that you stop seeing it like your other cds

Also spend like 2hrs on a dummy and none of this is particularly hard.

Also a lot of newer sub players Also come here asking why their damage sucks and it's always because the burst isn't done right.

That and not enough dances for flag

[ornate heron]

if youre black powder spamming in aoe and you get a coup de grace. do you eviscerate twice to use the proc even if there are more than 4 targets?

[dusk stone]

Yes

Coup is very strong

[ornate heron]

okay ty

also

with the first dance, since our LAST season tierset made symbols longer and match our dance duration. what do we do now that our first symbols is SHORTER than dance? do we just accept the fact that our first dance will have like 3 seconds of no symbols at the end of it?

[dusk stone]

It also gives 5 stacks of flawless form or 15% * 2 cause 2 coups

I haven't even paid attention

Tfd is always good

[slate hinge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[ornate heron]

yeah i like tfd, im just saying the first time you press dance and symbols. the symbols is 3 seconds shorter than dance..

[hybrid compass]

Should I fit 3 sectecs in flag or how many?

[dusk stone]

It's ok

[ornate heron]

do we REPRESS symbols, or do we just let it be "symbolless"

[dusk stone]

I don't even notice the lack of duration

Just make sure sectec gets supercharged when it should

[ornate heron]

yeah okie thats what ive been doing

tyty

[swift tinsel]

with inevitability symbols lasts quite long

[dusk stone]

That too

[swift tinsel]

typically longer than dance

even with tfd

[hazy breach]

Last season did not increase symbols duration

Thats this season if you play deathstalker (which you shouldnt)

[clear scroll]

Derp question. I thought backstab turns into shadow strike when you dance?

[hazy breach]

It does not

[swift tinsel]

it probably seems like it does if you have them on the same bind in your regular and stealth bars

[clear scroll]

Am I thinking about subterfuge?

Yes I have them on the same keyboards

[hazy breach]

Blindside on assa does that

[clear scroll]

Keybinds

[swift tinsel]

stealth just enables strike but does not convert it

[clear scroll]

So I still want to do 1 backstab after dancing instead of shadow strike?

Man gotta find a new keybind

[swift tinsel]

with the premeditation buff

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[swift tinsel]

can use this ^ and just press it twice so it dances then backstabs with the second keypress

[clear scroll]

Ooo neat

So just use that as your normal dance button?

[swift tinsel]

yep

nice and easy

[dusk stone]

I use 1 for shadow strike and it's on both Bars so there's less cogi overload and backstab bound to 3

I am getting really tired of auto correct

[hybrid compass]

with raid talents u spec into shiv, is it ever usable or its just a point to go further

[dusk stone]

Shiv is only used for soothes

Generally a waste unless something needs it we had multiple things that used it last patch

We have 2 stuns though

I use a macro that uses 1 while in stealth and 1 out of it on same bind

Rogue hard carries when ppl in keys being brainlets with casts

[sick jackal]

is this way too much mastery/vers?

[dusk stone]

Check stat weights and also sim

Probably a little too much mastery

[vivid nest]

hey guys from how many targets do we shuriken storm?

[dusk stone]

Also what mog are those daggers

[runic trail]

Ignore stat weights, just sim

[dusk stone]

Vers might be high too

[runic trail]

Unkillable

[swift tinsel]

you'll likely want more crit

[dusk stone]

I run 25 and its barely behind crit

[swift tinsel]

18% a bit on the lower end

[ornate heron]

is it more important to supercharge sec tec or coup de grace and its second one?

[hazy breach]

Sectech

By far

[opal basalt]

So guys

Do we think sub is gonna get a nerf because of the performance in race?

[swift tinsel]

nope

[hazy breach]

Sectec does like 2x the amount of damage eviscerate does per combo points, so 30% increase from the tier isnt nearly enough to change it

[swift tinsel]

would be very surprised if sub gets direct nerfs

[hazy breach]

They stacked elementals, dragons, warlocks and DKs

[swift tinsel]

yeah we're pretty safe

[ornate heron]

ty eleem

[dusk stone]

It would be awfully weird to nerf the spec there's 1 of when there's like 3 locks and devokers

[swift tinsel]

and if they do nerf us at all we'd get baseline buffs probs

[opal basalt]

Idk I talked with a few guildies and they all seem to think the burst is not fair with the damage amp timings

[swift tinsel]

ah that changes everything

buried the lead there

[dusk stone]

Tell them learn to play the real spec

[swift tinsel]

I talked to my cat and he said "nuh uh"

checkmate

[opal basalt]

Just to be clear I think sub’s totally fine and safe too

[dusk stone]

I dont think people realize the complicated shit exile had to do to be #1 big dam

[misty condor]

On Operation: Floodgate, do you guys hold cds for Big MOMMA vulnerability phase? or send on cd?

[opal basalt]

They just argued how good timings also cost fury all their damage

[dusk stone]

Oh no my ret pally no good in raid nerf sub

[hazy breach]

Generally killing the adds is the harder part about the fight

[dusk stone]

When adds are at half hp send cds so later half of flag ends up in amp and big sectec

[misty condor]

That's probably the best choice, thank you both

[dusk stone]

You can send 1-2 dances while you wait, it might be unoptimal if you miss a whole flag window though i havent tested extensively

[dusk stone]

Go get better guildies

[opal basalt]

Hahaha

[final charm]

Was simming my guy and was curious what the dps loss would be if I removed Flagellation for a passive talent and apparently I lose 2.2M dps on single target 5 min sims. Anyone know what's up with that?

[lucid jackal]

thats a lot of damage

[dusk stone]

Brother

[hazy breach]

The sim has a lot of stuff tied to flagellation so it kinda breaks

But the best build without flag when i checked without it breaking were still talking like -17%

[swift tinsel]

a pittance really for one less pesky button

[hazy breach]

So its REALLY REALLY bad to not pick flag

[dusk stone]

For optimal sandbag play ds sub with no flag

[final charm]

Interesting. Would be nice to actually see the numbers, but good to know

[opal basalt]

I’m really hyped for midnight alpha/beta cycles

[dusk stone]

Flag gives massive amount of mastery during your burst is why its so good

[opal basalt]

Surely there’s gonna be huuuge rogue changes

[swift tinsel]

I'm excited for the last-minute rush job

[opal basalt]

Realz too busy with devourer

Nothing gonna happen

Rogue neglected for another year

[swift tinsel]

according to him he didn't work on it

[opal basalt]

Oh interesting

[dusk stone]

Incoming 3% buff to bp sectec at 8 targets again and nimble to 40, while 200% buff to envenom

[swift tinsel]

also according to him atro doesn't stack as of six months ago

[opal basalt]

[swift tinsel]

unless there was an imposter in exile's chat

[lucid jackal]

How are you writing fanfics about sin getting buffed while sub is the the best rogue spec

You people need your brains checked