93 to 100 is not 7%
#subtlety
fierce minnow
dusky nymph
!gear
wicked joltBOT
fierce minnow
thats just not how percentiles work^^
chrome fern
we'll never know
limpid sage
thats just not how percentiles work^^
20% haste > 7%
tepid trellis
with him getting pi the boss wouldve been pushed into execute quicker which means more than 7% dmg, source trust me bro (just made it up)
fierce minnow
buffing arcane mages even more
and in return losing out on his last set of blades
tepid trellis
he was assa, he IS the execute
dry harness
if have almost 2 Dance up and my blades are 20 sec away should i wat?
wait for rest of cd
tepid trellis
then u fucked up somewhere getting there
limpid sage
I would send if I have 3 SoD charges
tepid trellis
means you werent sending enough dances between cds
chrome fern
stealthi, when should i look at the cd of flag / dance, and decide lets not send a dance with this sectec
i was trying to do the maths on sectec cdr vs dance, and my brain noped out
tepid trellis
its just 1 sec per cp vs 0.5
fierce minnow
in fond memory of the mighty amirdrassil sheet
chrome fern
its just 1 sec per cp vs 0.5
yeah but then that taking into account the ticking down of flag was the confusion
trying to line up cdr already rought but aligning that to a time is next level
more of an empirical thing than maths im up for
fierce minnow
trying to line up cdr already rought but aligning that to a time is next level
its never been this easy
chrome fern
i am dumb assassin main
fierce minnow
you didnt experience the dark days of shadowdust mathmaticians
chrome fern
i did play that build, but yeah i didnt see the maths
limpid sage
Fastest way of learning is just by sending at different times
chrome fern
idk man, i press buttons, and then all of a sudden there's 5s cd on some important spell in the middle of my cd's
limpid sage
Oh like dance?
chrome fern
ye, it just means im not saving / sendign a naked sectec i know, but repetition is the onyl way to learn
chrome fern
sometimes it's more than 5s though
limpid sage
Can you give an example of how your cds look
chrome fern
most common problem is during blades window, dance is not ready for second use immediately
limpid sage
Ahhh
fierce minnow
then you have to autoattack more and look at the landscape
limpid sage
Just send flag on 35 sec till next charge
fierce minnow
its a peaceful life
chrome fern
but if i dont start it when i do, a sectec casts goes missing
hence i think it's sending a naked one
limpid sage
It’s way more important getting your cds off on cd than naked sectec
dry harness
so when blades almost come off cd u should have 1 or 2 cd charges?
limpid sage
Generally I don’t bother with naked sectec if I’m below 26 sec till flag
tepid trellis
it almost always alternates between 2 and 1 shadow dances between cooldown sets (on single target) on AoE you can pretty much always send 2
limpid sage
Where’s the beautiful example that someone did in paint
tepid trellis
pretty sure that was me, dont think ive got it anymore tho
haughty rose
do i need a WA for netherprism or just macro it to blades and forget about it?
dry harness
what is worst posision to be in? having flag and shadows up and no dance in that windows?
limpid sage
do i need a WA for netherprism or just macro it to blades and forget about it?
Can do both
open depot
!wa
wicked joltBOT
limpid sage
The advantage to netherprism is that you can save it for 3 mins if there’s a dmg amp or higher target count
Which you’ll lose out on if you macro it to sblades
tribal blade
yeah i made a seperate bind for blades+prism
tepid trellis
what is worst posision to be in? having flag and shadows up and no dance in that...
yes, you ALWAYS, wanna be able to 2x dance 2x SoD 2x sectech inside of that window
and you ideally dont wanna hold flag/blades
steel zinc
Stealthi if you didnt have ritual forge on Aza what 2nd on use would you play or would you play feather? (Dont have ritual forge but every other trinket)
tribal blade
being able to hold prism is pretty good
tepid trellis
feather yes
chrome fern
yes, you ALWAYS, wanna be able to 2x dance 2x SoD 2x sectech inside of that wind...
maybe im reading the guides wrong, but it gave me the impression that holding sectec is worse than holding flag/blades for 10-15s
dry harness
@tepid trellis ty
tribal blade
i assume holding flag and blades will be much worse
considering how much dmg we do in cds
tepid trellis
maybe im reading the guides wrong, but it gave me the impression that holding se...
dunno where you have read that
considering we sit on it on purpose 20-30 sec before flag is up
30 is stretching it, but
chrome fern
"A small exception exists; it can happen that the cooldown of Shadow Dance is not low enough to align it to Symbols of Death when close to your major cooldowns. You can send Secret Technique with only Symbols of Death in this case, but in general, this happens very rarely and is a minor optimization."
this one in particular, i guess im just reading it wrong
tepid trellis
"A small exception exists; it can happen that the cooldown of Shadow Dance is n...
thats because of sectech cdr is stronger than dance
tribal blade
"A small exception exists; it can happen that the cooldown of Shadow Dance is n...
you can do this so long as sectec will be up for cds
tepid trellis
so in a perfect world it would be together with a dance as well
but we cant do that cuz of dance cdr in some cases
so you just rip your 1x excess SoD with sectecch
but if you press it too close to flag blades
it wont be up
and u fucked up
tribal blade
something something i'm farming more prism stacks
nice i'm officially beating he-who-shall-not-be-named in IO
chrome fern
i haven't read your guide too in depth stealthi, but it might be worth putting in a section at least on the wowhead one, abotu holding sec tec up to 20-30s before cds
cause that line alone will make this all so much easier for me
now that i know
chrome fern
fair, maybe it needs a slot next to the one button rotation as sub par but ease of use tips
hollow spear
I feel like min max stuff is what external resources like this discord are for
Unfortunately a lot of new people use this discord as guide replacement more than anything 😅
keen patrol
What are bis trinkets for us
rustic beacon
https://www.twitch.tv/zac__________________/clip/OnerousConsiderateCaribouVoteNay-GVNKEspcKOGerXlj Is this possible without the comp? 😄
tepid trellis
yes he is cheesing in hardmode
slate marlin
He got a late coup refund and send a shadowstrike, i have that sound so memorized by now
sick hazel
how do u tell the sim not to use netherprism on cd
scarlet stump
Do we use back stab or shuriken storm on 2 targets ?
hollow spear
i 18 stack bosses and get way less
He had coup and sht stacks prepared
void ocean
lol, ok...
lilac stag
Unfortunately a lot of new people use this discord as guide replacement more tha...
Why should I take the time to read a carefully crafted explanation when I can just ask everything to be regurgitated in a live chat? 
void ocean
find the imposter
tribal blade
Why should I take the time to read a carefully crafted explanation when I can ju...
literally just saw this in trade chat
the entitlement
chrome fern
hunters are PoS's though
tribal blade
i don't normally talk in trade much, but i had to drop this
chrome fern
they could stop world flooding with all their sandbagging
tribal blade
hunters are PoS's though
lol true
lilac stag
the entitlement
“Did you read the guide on x?”
“What specific question do you have from that?”
chrome fern
have we all forgotten that time where the hunter leader had the bis rotation behind a paywall
tribal blade
“Did you read the guide on x?”
“What specific question do you have from that?”
do i equip a bow in my weapon slot
tepid trellis
how do u tell the sim not to use netherprism on cd
you asking cuz your sim is acting up or?
tribal blade
?
lilac stag
do i equip a bow in my weapon slot
No. Spear.
tribal blade
No. Spear.
oh right right
lilac stag
dumbass 
tribal blade
i know nothing jon snow
lilac stag
sick hazel
you asking cuz your sim is acting up or?
Nah I just wondered if theres a way to tell the sim when to use netherprism, cos in reality if you hold it for cds the sim doesnt
tepid trellis
the sim should be doing that
like the sim you linked in assa it uses 1-2 stack at 11 seconds in
lilac stag
do you mean hold it for 3 minutes? It legit holds it for every cd set
tepid trellis
then it uses it again a 1min
cuz the fight ends 20 sec after that
so
it adds up
chrome fern
sims at a base level aren't meant for you to be testing your rotation, all that work has been done by the TC's
tepid trellis
its a fair question tbh
but i think he looked at the wrong thing
like
latent energy is the dmg proc
chrome fern
just from the sin chat, it seems he trying to tailor it to his cd choices was what i gathered
tepid trellis
and the bottom one is the actual mainstat on-use
tepid trellis
sims at a base level aren't meant for you to be testing your rotation, all that ...
tbf thats kinda how we do it, test ideas and see how the sim likes it, and like as i said its a fair question from him, since he thought it used it on cd, which it did not
lilac stag
For the most part the “TC’s” are just people who started trying to experiment with an existing profiles. Ask questions and test it out.
This type of stuff is encouraged here.
keen dome
It's good and I like that it is.
tepid trellis
there are no dumb questions only me giving dumb answers
tepid trellis
i bet my answers will be dumber
keen dome
Oooh, a challenge
vale pine
unseen blade has too many reset mechanics to hold it efficiently, you can hold coup when you get it close to flagellation for your cooldowns
hollow spear
What I asked myself wrt unseen blade procs: is storm soup > backstab soup?
During the 10-15 seconds before flag when holding coup, I mean.
sick hazel
appreciate the help @tepid trellis
tepid trellis
np
sick hazel
still cant tell if lily or prism better but Il just stick with prism ig xD
keen dome
Prism is so nice
keen dome
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/766341899811815444/1408757317876580412/image.png?ex=68aae6fe&is=68a9957e&hm=344b1e8e1170d93cfc96a58d6dadf894b13216179b7fdda3428968bf2414fd76& guess we know how Apex stuff looks now
Also I wonder if those numbers are accurate to their squish
dusk stone
the fact you can move dps around is big in keys, you can hold for 1 pack and go unload an 18 prism on a dangerous mob
its crazy
you would have ultra giga prio if one in particular mob is bad
hardy agate
!gear
wicked joltBOT
vale pine
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/766341899811815444/1408757317876580412/im...
looks nice
dusk stone
i vote we close the sub channel until they make apex talent shadowdust
and improve it
inland totem
what's up with The First Dance talent? is there an ICD to it?
dusk stone
i saw stealthis spreadsheet and that talent looked really good
inland totem
I can't seem to reliably gain it going into stealth
dusk stone
it was intuitive and rewarded good decision making
dusk stone
what's up with The First Dance talent? is there an ICD to it?
wdym
lilac stag
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/766341899811815444/1408757317876580412/im...
Look at the laziness in them naming everything midnight.
keen dome
looks nice
Makes me think it'll be SecTec
hazy breach
I can't seem to reliably gain it going into stealth
Its not tied to stealth at all
Its combat related
dusk stone
does vanish not help?
vale pine
what's up with The First Dance talent? is there an ICD to it?
You just need to be out of combat 6 secs, you can make a weakaura
dusk stone
ive vanished so many times to get tfd and go like 10 meters out
inland totem
Its not tied to stealth at all
sorry, I meant leaving combat
vale pine
vanish does not get you out of combat
inland totem
not talking about vanish
dusk stone
i see
dusk stone
on trash?
dusk stone
ok so that is right, vanish -> tfd reset just like sin
vale pine
waiting there doing nothing for 6 sec
is usually worse than the tfd benefits
there is some potential to time it right, which could be benefitial
dusk stone
I can't seem to reliably gain it going into stealth
so tfd has a few rules last i heard, entering stealth and being around 10-15 meters away triggers it mostly? reliably
vale pine
but in general, just does not sound great
inland totem
in many occassions where I leave combat, the countdown does not begin
dusk stone
its worth if you're going into cd's and not worth if your cds are up is what i find
i use to do tfd reset on mechagon a lot
sometimes it takes a second
it is not stealth where it begins automatically if not in combat, but generally being X meters away helps
vanish too
inland totem
I do not need to be in combat with anything at all for it to not function properly
using dance out of combat and the buff does not appear reliably after the dance ends
vale pine
like in keys
dusk stone
dont dance out of combat
vale pine
if your tank pulls
and you need a sec or two to get tfd
its usually worth to wait
but thats kinda all i would optimize for
dusk stone
just go far away man its fine usually even if group is in combat most times i find
inland totem
all I'm asking is what is up with the talent, if there is something wrong that is known. I'm not asking for advice on when to use it :p
dusk stone
it was suppose to be fixed
tepid trellis
works fine on my end
tepid trellis
i drop combat, 6 sec timer starts, after 6 sec buff aquired
vale pine
^
shadow lance
^
vale pine
my advise would be
create a weakaura wich starts a timer when you leave combat
makes it a lot easier to track things
tepid trellis
can just track the buff.
inland totem
I can reliably reproduce that the tdf timer does not start ticking down being outside of combat for 5 seconds at the very least, when I was outside of combat in the first place
and it behaves the same way when I exit combat
tepid trellis
inb4 he is doing it in open world stuff with wamode and pvp talent on
keen dome
So don't do them
limpid sage
My 2 least favorite dungeons and they HAVE TO HAVE MY UPGRADES
shadow lance
inb4 he is doing it in open world stuff with wamode and pvp talent on
cba record a whole m+ run
vale pine
can just track the buff.
is there a buff for the timer?
tepid trellis
yes
shadow lance
Yep, a buff for preparing and a buff for tfd
vale pine
i only ever tracked the tfd buff
hazy breach
I can reliably reproduce that the tdf timer does not start ticking down being ou...
Idk thats how it used to work but was fixed this patch 
echo lynx
#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique
Why is cold blood not activiating guys?
hazy breach
!cbbug
wicked joltBOT
Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:
- Relogging.
You can use a weakaura to get a reminader: >Open on Wago.io <
echo lynx
Damn thanks
icy knot
Hey i have a question when i understood it right i should use unyielding Netherprism every 1,5min and not every 3 min right?
hazy breach
Either is fine
icy knot
ok is there a big dps difference?
steel zinc
ok is there a big dps difference?
fight dependend
hazy breach
On a target dummy theres no difference
But in practice there could be because of adds, damage amps etc
wanton portal
!cbug
wicked joltBOT
Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:
- Relogging.
You can use a weakaura to get a reminader: >Open on Wago.io <
inland totem
you can see that I'm out of stealth looking at my Stealth icon. the TFD buff appears 4 seconds later after SD ends
shadow lance
U tracking the right buff?
tepid trellis
warmode or pvp talent turned on?
inland totem
nope
inland totem
U tracking the right buff?
it's right there, starts with a 6 second timer
shadow lance
Send ID
shadow lance
wanted to be sur u put the right shit
I know which id is what I did my wa based on that
Target urself going outside of dance
hollow spear
Has anyone of you bounds movements keys + shift for other things?
Curious, because I am running out of keybinds
lusty epoch
You use alt or ctrl?
hollow spear
Only if I really have to, kinda weird hand placement for me
haughty mural
I use shift & alt
cedar iron
!wa
wicked joltBOT
cedar iron
in LE's, what does this mean
haughty mural
But i never touch my movement keys
lusty epoch
And you bound all your mouse buttons too?
I have 2 side buttons on my mouse so:
Button 4
Button 5
Shift+button 4
Shift+button 5
Ctrl+button 4
Ctrl+button 5
Scroll up
Scroll down
Shift+scroll up
Shift+scroll down
Scroll button
Shift+scroll
Ctrl+scrl
cedar iron
the number of dance & sign before cds?
hazy breach
1 charge and 30 seconds left on second charge on dance
keen dome
!wa
wicked joltBOT
vagrant arch
!prepull
wicked joltBOT
Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.
- Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
NOT Recommended- Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully. - Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than1% damagegain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.
silent ruin
Is there a bug, proccing unseen blade with backstab, but not getting flawless form sometimes
shadow lance
Not getting at all?
tepid trellis
not that im aware of
shadow lance
Or your stacks doesn't move?
silent ruin
Sometimes it happens, not everytime
tepid trellis
and you sure you didn't just lose a stack at the same time?
silent ruin
Hmm ?
swift tinsel
2pc tier proc
shadow lance
Tier give a second strike of Unseen blades
swift tinsel
Free UB
silent ruin
The free UB doesn't give flawless?
swift tinsel
I don’t know if that’s what’s bugged so I asked
deep pivot
!up
wicked joltBOT
dusk stone
Has anyone of you bounds movements keys + shift for other things?
dont forget numpad as well, i have 0-9 and + - all bound, I have shift 1-5 bound, 3 ctrl keybinds and then just the normal stuff
hollow spear
My keyboard doesn't even have numpad and how would I use that anyways 😅
I don't want to move my hand to Antarctica
dusk stone
mouse
hollow spear
Mouse hand?
dusk stone
you rebind the buttons to mouse and use shift and ctrl with left hand
hollow spear
Ah yeah already did that
dusk stone
i use numpad for those keys cause you're never touching them
there's also the 6-9 buttons above arrow keys
there's [ ] ; ' ,./ are popular ones if i need extra extra stuff bound to mouse or w/e
keen patrol
do we always Shuriken storm into blackpowder in aoe when Secret techique is on CD and no Coup proc?
dusk stone
T is actually a very good keybind
sour sun
do we always Shuriken storm into blackpowder in aoe when Secret techique is on C...
I think we shadowstrike below 7 targ still?
swift tinsel
do we always Shuriken storm into blackpowder in aoe when Secret techique is on C...
If you’re outside dance you’d storm
cursive vapor
do we always Shuriken storm into blackpowder in aoe when Secret techique is on C...
Outside of dance storm yes
sour sun
oop
swift tinsel
If you’re inside dance you’d strike
muted frigate
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
swift tinsel
And BP at 4+ targets in and out of dance
muted frigate
Is the bug fixed?
dusk stone
is the flawless proc from stab' not good?
swift tinsel
Is the bug fixed?
Which
dusk stone
storm and bp gets no value ig
dusk stone
a bug for what
muted frigate
not being able to use second coup?
dusk stone
??? wdym
muted frigate
Mabye I was hallucinating
cursive vapor
is the flawless proc from stab' not good?
If flawless form is up you technically could bp on already 3+ targets but overall 4+ is fine
muted frigate
Maybe I got it mixed up with the shuriken optimization
keen patrol
always dance and symbols on CD?
dusk stone
liquid might be safe being asleep atm, the bosses hp has not moved in echos pulls
swift tinsel
??? wdym
When the tier set first went live on ptr you couldn’t consume the 2nd coup bc you had the stacks but didn’t get the ability to cast coup
dusk stone
always dance and symbols on CD?
no
keen patrol
why
dusk stone
!guide
dusk stone
!burst
wicked joltBOT
During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.
dusk stone
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
swift tinsel
why
If you use them on cd you won’t have enough to double symbols and dance in your next flag window
So between flags you use enough of them to guarantee that
dusk stone
i swear people dont even read the guide
cursive vapor
@swift tinsel your name ahahaah good one
swift tinsel
<@534102863207464971> your name ahahaah good one
Figured it’ll save a few questions here and there lol
dusk stone
i could use some advice
i keep having this issue where im losing 2-4 gcds in burst with stuff moving like i cant keep myself on the target
like im not bad at moving but sometimes its just rough when you don't move enough
this was from a halls 12 and the above was only thing i saw myself do wrong, except maybe 1 pull the tank did
is there like an auto target closest target if not in range setting for this game
or something
swift tinsel
^
tepid trellis
so you make it a habbit of sniffin the mobs ass's
swift tinsel
I have range checks in a few auras that help
Flag esp
Unless your tank is inting on purpose tho with speedy boost in dance you’re usually fine with movement
Or you timed it poorly
rapid forum
!wa
wicked joltBOT
dusk stone
get yourself a wa that tells you if you arent in melee range
like i know i'm not in range because the ability doesn't activate, its more just having continuty of that
but ill look into it
next otter
!gear
wicked joltBOT
severe prism
do i want tea only in big burst windows or tea in a random dance is also fine ?
cursive vapor
do i want tea only in big burst windows or tea in a random dance is also fine ?
Macro tea with dance and thats it
severe prism
i did but i don't mind having 2 dances button, and i was wondering if it was a meaningful gain to only tea in sblade dances
cursive vapor
!tea
wicked joltBOT
Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```Just use the macro, best option
fringe island
I'm pumping aoe in m+ but I do embarrassing damage in raid ST can't figure out what I'm doing wrong I'm being kicked out of groups lmao
swift tinsel
like how bad are we talking
dusk stone
have you read the guide and does your opener look like this
haughty rose
why is still shroud in some raid builds from fuu's guide?
real rain
im confused about what talents to play in keys there is so many different ones that people play
fringe island
like how bad are we talking
around 2m give or take. Sometimes 1.90 someimes 2.1
severe prism
why is still shroud in some raid builds from fuu's guide?
because what else you gonna pick ? also i guess you can use it in dance as a speed boost
dusk stone
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
swift tinsel
stillshroud is also a group movespeed thing bc of shrouded in darkness
dusk stone
its good for araz
swift tinsel
around 2m give or take. Sometimes 1.90 someimes 2.1
what key lvl, ilvl, etc
dusk stone
moves the whole group to the collectors faster
fringe island
what key lvl, ilvl, etc
291 ilvl, my gear is pretty terrible but I still do respectable damage in M+ compared to people with higher ilvl and with better gear. In raid however I just fall behind completely, I even had another sub in my raid the other day who just murdered me damage wise
cursive vapor
im confused about what talents to play in keys there is so many different ones t...
There are some differences, personal preferences etc.., just take the talents from the pins
dusk stone
what is your overall in keys
fringe island
what is your overall in keys
not sure it differs but I usually top damage in 8-10 keys that I play
I know it's low keys btw
dusk stone
yeah im not worried about that
fringe island
I fell behind in S3 because I was on vacation
dusk stone
does your opener look like the one in the guide
fringe island
yes I try to emulate the opener exaclty like it's shown I've even corrected some of my mistakes like having cold blood macrod and not using backstab inside of shadow dance
I do all of that correctly now
dusk stone
are you saving 2 dances and 2 symbols for every flag
warm marlin
doing the ! log command would likely help more than guesswork questioning
and giving a log
fringe island
are you saving 2 dances and 2 symbols for every flag
no I don't actually
I'll try that
swift tinsel
yeah that's 90% of your damage
dusk stone
85% of your damage comes from your burst windows so having two dances and two symbols for everyone is very important
swift tinsel
well, 80
dusk stone
you usually stop sending symbols and dance 25-30 seconds before flag and blades are up and 35 for raid
fringe island
So not using dance and symbols to line it up with flag is worth it then
hazy breach
Yes
Every flag and blades should have 2 dances, 2 symbols and 2 sectechs
Thats the core gameplay loop of sub
fringe island
thanks a lot I never knew this
dusk stone
read the guide it helps a lot
fringe island
!guide
fringe island
just any of them?
I've watched videos but they didn't really explain that or maybe I missed it
dusk stone
all of those are written by experts
fringe island
I'm guessing this goes for aoe as well?
swift tinsel
in aoe you pretty much just replace eviscerate with black powder
cd sequence is mostly the same
fringe island
do you always BP at 4 or more targets or only with the thing
swift tinsel
always
hazy breach
Well youd use coup above bp
fringe island
thanks everyone I appreciate it back to the lab
one last thing are you guys specced into shuriken storm? It looks tempting
swift tinsel
storm or tornado
fringe island
tornado**
cursive vapor
Im not playing tornado atm, is it good? Thought like more personal preference
tepid trellis
it is
dusk stone
all the builds have different tradeoffs ive never played with tornado personally
autumn canopy
!guides
cunning notch
!wa
wicked joltBOT
cunning notch
the thing that refunds combopoints is shadowcraft ?
tepid trellis
ye
tepid trellis
shadowcraft incrases your ShT stack gain
and allows finishers to consume the stacks if there is enough to fully refill your cps
during symbols
cunning notch
noice thanks homies
raw wadi
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
void hound
*in league of legends terms*
shadowcraft is like a reset
vale pine
could compare it to nidalee mark, kinda
shadow lance
Bro, where is the fucking PSF ring? I don't wanna run that key anymore
Only time I saw it drop, the guy was there for that
lyric lily
!wa
wicked joltBOT
hybrid compass
why do you spend cp on 6> as sub and not 5> like on assa?
warm marlin
The math suggests it is better - but more specifically for assa mutilate/ambush can generate a lot of combo points so you spend on 5 to avoid overcap, while for sub shadow techniques/backstab can never overcap and strike will waste only 1 combo point if cast at 5
raw wadi
#Showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null
is this a "working" macro?
celest night
!up
wicked joltBOT
warm marlin
Assa also prefers 5 to cycle coins/deathstalker mark faster since 5cp is the minimum amount to proc those effects, building again would be bad for that
muted frigate
Why are the sub logs on araz not pressing BP on add spawns? is it because of the nerfs that you care more about Boss damage cause adds die anyways? What were the RWF guys going?
raw wadi
Why are the sub logs on araz not pressing BP on add spawns? is it because of the...
its because you will have more dmg overall with just cleave
you will also have 4-5 targets when adds spawns
stoic valve
what would be good to macro with my lily of eternal weave trinket, im maghar trying to eliminate button bloat
raw wadi
what would be good to macro with my lily of eternal weave trinket, im maghar try...
blades
stoic valve
thought so
warm marlin
you will also have 4-5 targets when adds spawns
at which point BP does more damage
Pretty sure it’s just because boss dmg is good
still anvil
any way to track disorienting strikes through a weakaura? (to test something out)
hazy breach
any way to track disorienting strikes through a weakaura? (to test something out...
Not really no
Theres no buff to track or anything like that
You could make one that manually counts and tracks everything ofc, but its not just a buff
tepid trellis
As Long as the adds die in their cc’s or shortly after the boss dmg is just more value
still anvil
ah unlucky, ty though!
warm marlin
You could make one that manually counts and tracks everything ofc, but its not j...
I’m pretty sure the LE one does track it, but it’s a bit bricked now with 2p since if the first blade double procs it think disorienting is gone
hazy breach
Ye
warm marlin
Just have to remember you have 2 procs after sectec
hazy breach
You could probably adjust it so it has an "ICD" to count the procs etc but its just very convoluted
fringe palm
you can also change the 2 to 3
hazy breach
And you'd want it to be removed if you swap zones, but not if you die
The talent is whack as hell
still anvil
I’m pretty sure the LE one does track it, but it’s a bit bricked now with 2p sin...
oh perfect
this more than enough for my purpose, i dont actually care about how many procs i have left
lilac stag
I’m pretty sure the LE one does track it, but it’s a bit bricked now with 2p sin...
It should be adjusted for new tier. There’s a separate link for it on her wago profile
warm marlin
It should be adjusted for new tier. There’s a separate link for it on her wago p...
probably is, idk if I’ve updated mine in a bit
round grotto
hi is this dmmg breakdown in m+ normal
tepid trellis
with or without new 4set?
normal evis shouldnt really be beating coup
unless you arent shadowstriking on AoE
round grotto
i have 2 set
hazy breach
Yes
tepid trellis
i have 2 set
then its probably alright
split shore
tepid trellis
never tried only 2 set so cant really compare to my own shit
hazy breach
(also strike does way more damage than shuriken)
round grotto
never tried only 2 set so cant really compare to my own shit
i guess if u include 4 set and double that coup de grace dmmg it would be doing double the normal evic
since it's only 3% diff
tepid trellis
yeh and the 2nd coup hits harder
void hound
can you dance without sod with coup up so you can supercharge sectec and second coup?
and use storm instead of backstab with premed?
hybrid compass
if im outside of shadow dance do I just spam shuriken storm BP in aoe or what do I exactly do (i mean m+) im like lost when it comes to being out of cds and I feel like I use way to many SD+SoD between burst cuz of that
swift tinsel
if im outside of shadow dance do I just spam shuriken storm BP in aoe or what do...
storm and put up rupture on mobs that will live 10-12 seconds at least
then bp if mobs are good
void hound
if im outside of shadow dance do I just spam shuriken storm BP in aoe or what do...
pretty much, you dont do dmg outside cds anyways
round grotto
if im outside of shadow dance do I just spam shuriken storm BP in aoe or what do...
i was doing that but once i started storm rupture my dmmg increased alot
shadow lance
What?
swift tinsel
you can't pandemic dance
round grotto
ah
swift tinsel
so you can't cast it until the first one falls off
round grotto
nvm then xd i was thinking i was just forgeting to press it
swift tinsel
nah its kind of annoying
warm wagon
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
tepid coral
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
dusky nymph
!gear
wicked joltBOT
ivory swallow
Dude is sub S tier on M+?
Jeez dude I just finished a priory 10
DUDE I am probably doing everything wrong hahahaha
THUS DUDE MADE 9M
alpine wraith
it is likely you dont have 4p and good trinkets
sub becomes a real spec after those
fallen crescent
A real spec lol
ivory swallow
Yeah I dont have 4pc
I only have 2 for now
I have some good trinks tho
Both hero, but I really think the 4pc will make some good difference here
fallen crescent
4 p is huge
errant ferry
with netherprism and i just ripping it with every shadow blades?
errant ferry
i see, do i skip using it on pull since it has build no stacks or just send it kind of?
i kind if enjoy macroing my trinkets into blades so save a keybind but dont want to do that if im trolling myselfd
subtle magnet
do we try and get second ST in first dance opener?
ivory swallow
Dude hahaha I am lazy as f*, I am macroing some stuff
Cold+ST
SD + SOD (But i also have a key for SOD alone)
SB + trinkets
Is that so bad?
hazy breach
do we try and get second ST in first dance opener?
Use it asap
subtle magnet
sometimes i dont get enough refund for it to be up in first dance but im on dummy without lust openers
subtle magnet
kkty
hybrid compass
7min 5 dummies 7m dps is it a good graph? (2p set)
regal garden
Hey anyone got solution for this? when i click it it says i have my Cold Blood "not learned" while it is i respecced reloaded and still same result
vale pine
!cbug
wicked joltBOT
Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:
- Relogging.
You can use a weakaura to get a reminader: >Open on Wago.io <
vale pine
you can alterantively switch to assassiantion and talent out of it, and switch back
some people did say works, i haven't tested
cedar willow
hey, how is sim for dual on use (forge + prism), trying to get an answer for dual 704 on use or prism + myth track anub crystal
vale pine
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
hey, how is sim for dual on use (forge + prism), trying to get an answer for dua...
throw this in custom apl on raidbots
cedar willow
throw this in custom apl on raidbots
thanks!
vale pine
you still need to sim top gear
if you want to add a specific trinket you can do one of the following
type in the name in the item search and add it this way
or
^ copy/paste the season gear lists below your /simc and it adds all items on max upgrade level to your selection
cedar willow
sweet. Thanks man!
dry harness
for someone who does not do mytic raid is it for me best option 2 crafting daggers?
swift tinsel
for someone who does not do mytic raid is it for me best option 2 crafting dagge...
One is recommended even if you aren’t raiding mythic
dry harness
ye i got mainhand i can craft off but was wondering if best way
swift tinsel
Offhand is such a low-contributing slot it’s not really worth it
Until later if you have literally no better options and have surplus sparks
dry harness
ha ok thnx for anwser
flint dagger
hey, can someone tell me how to use netherprism trinket right? want to stack? or use early stacked?
vale pine
for someone who does not do mytic raid is it for me best option 2 crafting dagge...
offhand dagger is not a good slot
so probably not worth to spend crests/crafts on
best is to first craft a mh dagger
and after that sim it
similar to what i suggested to terror
^ the same post has 2 text documents attached
one is for crafted gear, you can just copy/paste it to top gear
then sim it
can add embellishments with the [+] on the items
alpine wraith
i recommend a ring as second craft just in case you get a good ring from the M+ vault or if you killed 1st boss you can equip it on the other slot
but if you drop some good neck/wrist in vault you kinda krangled the craft
dry harness
ty fuu
alpine wraith
even first or second boss drops M shoulders with good stats to
hazy breach
throw this in custom apl on raidbots
Ive pushed it, dont need a custom apl for forge+prism anymore
keen dome
huh, netherprism stacks stay between logging in and out.
I have no idea what possible use this could be
But it does and that's funny
hazy breach
Yep, only dying, unequiping or a starting raidboss/key resets it
keen dome
Hogger won't know what's hitting him when I get this pre-stacked and hit him with a full power sectec with 140k agility.
solemn creek
hmm.. im sure ive seen this ui somehwere else.. this is kush's
anyone would know?
flint dagger
hey, can someone tell me how to use netherprism trinket right? want to stack? or use early stacked?
cunning notch
this might be too much
swift tinsel
19% haste 
cursive vapor
Had 10%, successfully reduced it to 8% 🔥🔥🔥
swift tinsel
No
keen dome
is this one good?
If in doubt: sim
vale pine
is this one good?
its not the best possible, but solid
last gate
why do we get shiv in our talents?
cinder axle
Does the 4set influence how we play our rotation? like if i get a double Coup in my before i use dance = Coup Sec Tech into Coup? so my Tech gets buffed with flawless form or is it better to just Sec tech into double coup for the cd?
radiant shale
Is it worth keeping vanish for when in dance, without blades, while having the Disiorenting Strikes buff and coup up to shuriken storm?
hazy breach
why do we get shiv in our talents?
If you want to dispel enrages
last gate
If you want to dispel enrages
Ah
hazy breach
Is it worth keeping vanish for when in dance, without blades, while having the D...
Not really, its neutral with using vanish regularly
You can do it if you want, but sim says its like +-0
radiant shale
Ok thanks!
hazy breach
Does the 4set influence how we play our rotation? like if i get a double Coup in...
Just sectech before like usual for more cdr
cinder axle
Just sectech before like usual for more cdr
thx its insane how hard the second Tech with double coup and CB hits i have like 16 Flawless form stacks 😄
so i thougt maybe its better to split outside of the flag window
late sable
!wa
wicked joltBOT
vale pine
why do we get shiv in our talents?
every dungeon has at least one enrage dispell, with the exception of arakara
but its in general rarely needed
last gate
every dungeon has at least one enrage dispell, with the exception of arakara
im belf tho can i skip it ? 😄
hazy breach
Belf does not remove enrages
vale pine
^
hazy breach
It removes magical effects
wild hornet
do the akaari souls benefit from danse if dance ends between the sectec cast and the akaari soul hits
abstract mica
is it good to macro sd with tea or backstab ?
wicked joltBOT
Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.
vale pine
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
void needle
Tea works pretty well, bs can sometimes be suboptimal
vale pine
can do things like this
abstract mica
thx
keen dome
Blizzard should give rogues a bloodlust
young crypt
warrior makes more sense
keen dome
no, rogue. Because I keep telling my pugs when to lust and nobody pushes it
give it to me because nobody else can be trusted
keen dome
Agreed
I just did an Araz pug and I repeatedly told people to hero on pull
And we never, ever got it.
I kicked a lot of people in that pug
Got called a looootta slurs in whispers, too, lmao
cedar willow
for dual on use, is there a reason not to bind both trinkets to blades? if you put forge first, it puts prism on 20second, meaning prism is used first at 1m30
mighty citrus
give me back raid wide "no parry"
we dont have this anymore or am i mixing up something? thought trickster had something similar
keen dome
we dont have this anymore or am i mixing up something? thought trickster had som...
We do. It doesn't apply to the entire raid anymore.
vale pine
we dont have this anymore or am i mixing up something? thought trickster had som...
they fixed it in the last patch
graceful osprey
Ok don’t roast me too hard. First heroic prog for me. Need help improving. I know my nuke phase isn’t perfect but yeah.
vale pine
it applies to us, but not everyone in the raid
mighty citrus
i see thanks
vale pine
which it did before this patch
sweet turret
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
sage saffron
regarding macros: a macro that casts dance, symbols and backstab with a single button press works technically right? or can it be unreliable?
wicked joltBOT
During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.
potent relic
hmm.. im sure ive seen this ui somehwere else.. this is kush's
Naowhs ui?
glacial kraken
Haven't gotten 4p tier yet, on average how much extra cdr are you getting from it?
within 90s
hazy breach
Not much, its like 1 extra dance every 10 minutes
lucid jackal
It just feels good
hazy breach
Coup also does big damage
potent relic
It’s so fun
hazy breach
Imagine if finality worked too, the coups would be huuuuuuuuge
But theyre big as hell anyway
So W
glacial kraken
Imagine if finality worked too, the coups would be huuuuuuuuge
that'd be scary damage
winged kernel
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
sand patio
!GEAR
wicked joltBOT
hybrid compass
what are the ideal stats for sub? i mean ~%
hazy breach
Not haste
hybrid compass
thats what i assume 😄
hazy breach
Just dont get haste and youre good
alpine wraith
any other stat is good
you can always do top gear and see what combination is best
fringe island
what's the threshold ilvl on items you have to pass to be able to start transmuting gilded crests?
tight sparrow
elem
my sims tell me not to use double on use in dungeons
isnt that fixed yet?
araz + prism
tight sparrow
ive 714 pacemaker
and hc araz + normal prism
is that normal ?
is there any number of stacks apl using for prism ?
slate lantern
Lashgas back 
ban avoidance 
gilded lodge
what's the threshold ilvl on items you have to pass to be able to start transmut...
Since we know turbo boost is coming. It’s best to save all your crests and don’t transmute until then. It’ll save you a bunch of time
lucid jackal
is there any number of stacks apl using for prism ?
With your cds
lethal yew
swapping to sub for some mythic prog fights. Apart from swapping embellishments, does this gear/talent sim look right? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8s4GzxtPR9RE86X4eqgHb1
alpine wraith
no need to swap embellish
ascendance+band is fine for sub
just change the haste enchant to crit or mastery on the other ring
and should be fine
hazy breach
If anything the ascendance thing is probably better since most fights you'd swap sub for has a lot of adds
alpine wraith
and wait talents are a bit
hazy breach
And lens doesnt do shit against that
alpine wraith
this should be better
pv is very bad
for bosses with more than 2 targets replicating is fine and you can play the 1 finality or even rotten for bosses like araz
hazy breach
For replicating id suggest swapping pe+imp sht to replicating+finality
warm marlin
Shadow damage for sure is one of them
alpine wraith
are apex talents anywhere?
upper narwhal
What's apex for sub gonna be
Another 11% to black powder
warm marlin
Only pres/devourer/unholy got released I think
Maybe only showed what it looks like for unholy
lucid jackal
There are 2 1 passive and 1 2 passive
warm marlin
Not the actual talents
bleak night
the pres one does hook into two of their spells though
reversion and dream breath
so could do the same for others
lucid jackal
lilac stag
DB & Shadowcraft
sick sand
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
lilac stag
lowest hanging fruit. Curveball. Goremaw
hazy breach
If its not something completely new and novel im expecting it to either be sectech, sectech related or something akin to supercharger or coup where things count as having more cp (or just getting more max cp in general ig)
lethal yew
this should be better
I just grabbed the wowhead cleave build and st build. I think that sim was cleave
keen dome
It's absolutely going to be SecTec imo.
bleak night
deepest strat
keen dome
lmao
bleak night
10 cp finishers incoming
keen dome
Hell yes
hazy breach
deepest strat
Mariana trench stratagem
warm marlin
Let me hit that 20cp coup
keen dome
I don't really think it could be anything but SecTec as it's such an integral and critical Sub ability. The only other possible one would be Dance, I think. Which, I suppose, is very possible.
lethal yew
Looking at logs they are running inev ST on soulbinder and Araz
lethal yew
Thank you
alpine wraith
only in m+ you can move talents a bit more around but not because inev is bad
but because other give a little bit more of aoe/cleave
alpine wraith
what if we got 2 charges of sec tech and rng resets so we go full gamba
keen dome
hire this man
bleak night
What if they bake CB into SecTec via the apex.
then what would you use all your class tree points on
shadowheart gaming
keen dome
then what would you use all your class tree points on
I'm going to bet 1 whole gold that it'll be 1 point per gate
alpine wraith
or make vanish useful for sub
keen dome
And not 3 points at the end.
alpine wraith
challenge: impossible
keen dome
Well then
warm marlin
then what would you use all your class tree points on
getting vigor with our extra class points
keen dome
I owe you one whole gold.
bleak night
i expect it asap
lethal yew
Has anyone here killed Loomithar? If so, did you swap to webs? Theres only 24 sub kills and they all have very little web dmg. On mythic btw
keen dome
I'll send it with my greatest confidant. My cat.
bleak night
getting vigor with our extra class points
yeah but you can do that already with the 3 extra points
alpine wraith
you can swap to webs but that will make you do less dmg
as you might expect
that is a sweet spot where you can hit both boss and web
warm marlin
can take vanish healing too 
alpine wraith
but it comes dangerously close
bleak night
im taking shadowheart and the reduce slow duration
and improved wound poison i think
void needle
If anything the ascendance thing is probably better since most fights you'd swap...
Is dawnthread a good choice for sub? Do you know how it compares to lens in st, and ascendance in aoe?
lethal yew
I'd be playing sub for the web dmg since it can swap better than sin. But if its just not worth swapping I'll tell my rl
lucid jackal
If Ur dying to webs play sub and hold dances for webs
Ur boss damage will suck but the boss will die
Sin physically can't swap on that fight
lethal yew
We haven't gotten a pull on it yet. That'll be next week
warm marlin
I did try swapping to sub and my web damage was still kind of garbage
maybe I trolled a bit on the one pull I did
warm marlin
Or you play assa and top boss damage
alpine wraith
changing targets on second dance
lethal yew
The only rogue spec I saw do web dmg was outlaw. I aint playing outlaw
keen dome
New prediction: Extra charge of Shadow Dance. Shadow Dance amps damage even more. SecTec crits in Shadow Dance and uh goremaws
crystal bone
for the bloodguards in ara kara, do u guys still BP those packs, or do u evis the bloodguards since they have a DR aura?
alpine wraith
evis mainly yes
crystal bone
evis mainly yes
kk ty
void needle
Apex talent is sepsis
I think this actually would be interesting if they spread the dot over 20ish seconds instead so that your free stealth window lines up with your 3rd symbols during cd's
alpine wraith
sepsis used to be a finisher
would be cool on sub
they just changed to a random ass builder with a weak as f dot
then when they ported it in df they decided to not put any of the conduit/powers/legendary into practice
void needle
Yeah, I'm talking about the shitty builder version
alpine wraith
toxic onslaigh would have gone hard
getting AR and deathmark as sub
our 2 ruptures would break necks
void needle
This is what deathstalker should have been. More consistent dot damage, with deathmark burst, it's the hero talent we share with sin. I think it would make sense.
umbral fulcrum
why are perfecto and exile running forge on sub? i thought it being a 2m trinket was incompatible with sub
is it bc of the downtime they end up holding anyway
void needle
is it bc of the downtime they end up holding anyway
I believe they're running prism as well
umbral fulcrum
they are
void needle
Prism can be saved up to use as a 3 min trinket
void needle
forge on pull
umbral fulcrum
just no trinkets on 1:30?
void needle
You prism 2nd, unless you want to hold for full stacks for amp/adds
umbral fulcrum
they seem to be holding prism for longer than 1:30 so thats where i was confused
maybe im wrong
alpine wraith
yea you forge
void needle
Yeah, it's for burst windows
alpine wraith
prism at 1:30 then forge at 3 etc
void needle
It's how they do insane damage overall
alpine wraith
lucid jackal
Dimensius is probs a bit different
alpine wraith
you have a strong trink for every 1:30
lucid jackal
Legit no clue what they are doing
alpine wraith
they might do other things as guy said
lucid jackal
Baseline tho is forge first prism second if you are deciding to do double on use
alpine wraith
but i watched exile for a bit he does not hold much
umbral fulcrum
i might have to go sub for prog and i dont have prism but i do have lily+forge
would i just use lily in prism windows?
alpine wraith
lilly+forge does not work
better to use lilly and a passive or forge and a passive
umbral fulcrum
void needle
It works, just not well. Passive generally does more
lucid jackal
Double on use is probably overrated but it has its uses. But it only has uses if u have specifically prism and forge because they have synergy with each other
alpine wraith
and if you use it after forge it is on cd for next set of cds
umbral fulcrum
i used double on use last season with assa
spice matrix
i used double on use last season with assa
umbral fulcrum
<a:HUH:997866941056303135>
the stix trinket was very strong on assa bc lingering darkness amped the damage for some reason
void needle
pvp trink also works
I don't have sims for pvp trink. Is it better than lily or 704 wrathstone?
spice matrix
oh you're talking about the magnet.. fair enough
lucid jackal
If u don't specifically have forge and prism I wouldn't bother with double on use
Just get lily/prism and a passive
umbral fulcrum
If u don't specifically have forge and prism I wouldn't bother with double on us...
is this something i can easily sim? i have lily+pacemaker but i could go try to get a normal prism
idk how sub sims are
void needle
Ask eleem, he's the mastermind for our sims
I think they're pretty good, afaik all the trinkets are working as intended
alpine wraith
pacemaker is fine yes
for pvp trink you need special APL
but the forge one was pushed earlier
if you use latest it should sim fine
void needle
It won't hold it, just uses it every 1:30. The sims don't really account for damage amps/add spawns where you would hold stacks
tight monolith
for hard mode on postmaster, whats the best way to deal with the root for us?
lilac stag
1:30 is holding correctly.
polar cypress
Heyo, how much do you guys sim on 5min ST?
lilac stag
3:00 hold is specific if you need the higher amp at that point.
void needle
1:30 is holding correctly.
For linear damage fights yes
It holds correctly for the damage profiles we have in sims ig is what I'm saying. It just doesn't account for real world min/max, where prism value skyrockets over other trinkets even more significantly
polar cypress
I'm trying to swap to Sub, just wanna get the gear and the rotation out of the way. Any youtube gamers you'd recommend to learn and minmax the spec?
full trench
Question. I just switched from outlaw to sub. With cds in big packs m+. Iv had 20mil dmg with all cds.
But then I do nothing on the next pack. Is this normal. And how big is it to never getting to restealth between packs for SUB
void needle
Question. I just switched from outlaw to sub. With cds in big packs m+. Iv had 2...
stealth depends on talents, cd line up depends on key level/tank route
slate lantern
Question. I just switched from outlaw to sub. With cds in big packs m+. Iv had 2...
!design
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".
full trench
so sub isnt designed to do big overalls
void needle
Question. I just switched from outlaw to sub. With cds in big packs m+. Iv had 2...
Thistle tea helps in m+ with downtime outside cd's. Especially because it paths through vigor
void needle
so sub isnt designed to do big overalls
You can do big overall, a lot of sub overall is making sure you use cd's as they come up
Don't hold anything back unless mobs will die before the cd window ends
lusty solar
so sub isnt designed to do big overalls
of course it is, but you need your tank to pull big every 1:30, or you are cooked, so pugging can feel bad
full trench
yeah iv felt this is the case. Thanks so much!
void needle
pug routes are more moderate and don't let us open up quite as much. I went from mid to bottom of the pack in low keys, to top overall once you hit 12+
cedar willow
^ you don't need the custom apl anymore if you use "latest" version of raidbots
latest = browser version?
void needle
latest = browser version?
Yeah, latest under the SimC version dropdown in the simulation settings tab
hybrid compass
does it change a lot if i press some buttons in different order? like lets say opener always starts with flag so is it really bad if i start with shadow dance and symbols or like if I press shadow blades before flag?
bleak night
it isnt great
alpine wraith
you will see the difference
slate lantern
Everything in subs burst window builds towards the couple of huge hits of sectech so want to be doing the rotation pretty much the same every time (procs dependant)
glacial kraken
!wa
wicked joltBOT
dusk stone
so sub isnt designed to do big overalls
we can do very big overalls this patch but its also very easy to mess up on sub because losing a single gcd or doing burst rotation wrong = lot less damage
dusk stone
does it change a lot if i press some buttons in different order? like lets say o...
you always do the opener and subsequent burst stuff exactly the same; prep rupture -> flag -> symbols/dance -> stab -> sectec -> etc. I'm not sure why you would end up doing it differently
snow girder
how many charges of Shadow dance do you need to save for your cd window?
hazy breach
how many charges of Shadow dance do you need to save for your cd window?
1 and a half
Is what you should have up when you press flag
So 1 charge and 30s on the second one
Roughly
dusk stone
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
snow girder
ty
plush roost
how is all my shadow blades cds wrong
You press sblades after or as you press.sec tec, not flag. Wasting time on it doing sblades flag rupture backstab
dusk stone
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tWAG29wKDjchbPTf
you are pressing flag and blades at the same time is the first thing i see, without shadow dance as well and i think there's a dry sectec in there. there's a wasted coup trigger from 4p. You aren't saving two charges of dance for flag and are just sending dance without symbols sometimes too
stoic lagoon
hey folks, how difficult would you say sub is to get into? gearing my rogue atm as sub, i like it quite a bit (no effective grasp of rotation yet), is it a high barrier to entry?
before this I always played outlaw but i'm trying sub and reaally like it
don't think i've ever stepped into nm raid/m+ on this toon since i've never gotten into it enough
lucid jackal
Sub is easy but it's hard
Like sub has a handful of rules that are "unintuitive" but once u learn all of them, u just play the spec and it works
The actual rotation is pretty simple
It's just the rules that are a bit obtuse
stoic lagoon
interesting
I bet this is one of the questions that newer people ask too many times but in terms of difficulty, how bad is sub relative to outlaw/assass?
dusk stone
oh how hard is sub relative to sin, it depends. Sub is difficult to learn and easy to master. You can't just do whatever you want with the spec and do random things though. Sub is very particular with how you do burst and manage charges and etc. Basically once you get stuff right it should click and then you should be good
lucid jackal
I bet this is one of the questions that newer people ask too many times but in t...
Uhhh
Like outlaw is probably harder to execute on
Sin on st is extremely easy
Sin in aoe is fairly difficult
Subs like an in between
I think it's an easy spec but I've played it a lot
dusk stone
if it gives context, i see a lot of people saying sub is an easy spec, but when you ask people for key logs they also magically never have them
dusk stone
if you read the guide you should be good
copper echo
Boy sub feels so much better in Delves than my ret pally, big burst to delete anything and tricks is so OP 😂
Only at 8 or 9 level since under geared alt but the difference is pretty clear so far
wild hornet
i think echo gotta extend this
dusk stone
if its even killable atm
dusk stone
it might legitimately be 200 more pulls because of rng of just 1 or 2 people being dead by p3
dusk stone
idk if im wrong or not get a 2nd sub rogue for the amp
fierce minnow
no idea if any of those guilds has a second rogue geared to 710 tho
swift hollow
when is the best time to vanish?
dusk stone
am i wrong in understanding they didn't even have a proper sub rogue for araz?
dusk stone
when is the best time to vanish?
for?
dusk stone
we don't really use vanish as a dps increase
fierce minnow
am i wrong in understanding they didn't even have a proper sub rogue for araz?
perfecto and exile are usually on rogue, so thats hard to believe