subtlety

[tepid trellis]

over the course of a fight u wouldnt be able to tell

[round latch]

u just hatin'

[tepid trellis]

but yeah dance is 8 sec long and you can only get 8 globals in it and the last global happens at like 7.4 into dance or smth like that if you theoretically didn't waste any milisecs between globals

[tall tusk]

yo chat, if I have 704 ritual forge, antenna, netherprism, and seaforium. Which combo you think I should run on Mythic Forgeweaver Araz? Normally a sinner but subbing that fight :3

[tepid trellis]

prism+ forge

or prism + antenna

one of those 2

[tall tusk]

sounds good, that was my thought was one of those, prob pretty close huh?

[void needle]

In raid, identical

But antenna is far easier to play for obvious reasons

[tepid trellis]

prism + forge = more bursty for add spawns on flag windows
prism + antenna = more dmg on regular dance add spawns

speaking about forgeweaver specifically here

[tall tusk]

tyty

[mental dune]

fair enough 👍

[limpid sage]

anyone got a weakaura that tells if the remaining dance window is less than your gcd?

and does "castsequence reset=12" start at the beginning button press or last one?

[cobalt vector]

Last. Its basically reset when this hasnt been touched for 12

[limpid sage]

rip, then I don't know how to make my SD->Backstab macro work with TFD

because the stance reset conditional is procced 8 secs in

[remote eagle]

ok 4set is great

piss easy +11 but still

[limpid sage]

what I'd pay to have a full premade playing these specs

[hazy breach]

Should be in by default

[remote eagle]

truee

[limpid sage]

luckily lots of prot warriors and resto shamans out there which are the most significant buffs

[warped zodiac]

do you run tornado or replicating shadows

[tight sparrow]

i think prism we never swap unless it get nerf

[remote eagle]

replicating, pretty much old build with rotten and cb

[void needle]

both is strongest in keys i'm pretty sure

Sorry, just tornado is the strongest I've found

[tepid trellis]

from what i just checked it wasent

[mental dune]

but would you run tornado in pugs too?
if you randomly queue into a tank that baby pulls or goes for small chains arent you feeling pretty bad?

[void needle]

This is highest sim build. Play what you like though, finality is stronger than your other options lower down. But if you want rotten and/or inev you can do that, or trade tornado for RS if you hate that talent too

[remote eagle]

no inev feels like dog water

[limpid sage]

what does it sim if you go dark brew instead of the 2nd death perception?

[clever holly]

Tornado outside of blade with sod and dance?

[void needle]

That I actually haven't tried. That sounds yucky to me. I'll do a lot for gimmicky shit, but losing a charge of sod makes me want to die

I think the higher dps gain option in aoe is actually dropping shadowcraft for darkbrew

[limpid sage]

comes with the added QoL of not accidentally using a builder when full cp because Coup trolls you

[mental dune]

idk about this season but i tried a few times last season
seemed to do marginally better esp if you had dh buff
also esp in high target counts
but man yeah having 1 less symbol charge felt cringe asf

[void needle]

And not wasting it when tfd duration starts

[vale pine]

before dance, but with sod

only on more targets

single target, its pmuch just a filler

[mental dune]

so symbols --> tornado --> dance --> normal prio?

or just at any point before dance n you spend a charge of sod

[void needle]

Removing shadow craft is slightly better than removing death p damagewise. Preference wise, that's how I'd do it too. Losing a 3rd SoD is disgusting

[iron fjord]

!coup

[limpid sage]

ye with the amount of cdr on dances this tier as well I'd imagine it feels bad

[void needle]

It also means sending more dry sectechs which feels bad

[vale pine]

it can be between dances too, its not bad to use in dance but you typically try to avoid it

[open depot]

If you run Araz and Prism, what would be your timings for using them?
Araz - pull
Prism - 1:30
SD and SoD/ Araz - 2 min?

[mental dune]

probably hold forge for 3 min and have a close to or fully stacked prism on 4.5?
probably very fight dependent tho
im biased to holding prism for longer than ideal because big burst numbies make brain happy

[void needle]

Big burst scratches my sub itches

[open depot]

Do you hold prism for 3 min aswell? I read it in the pin as you use it on cd

[hazy breach]

Either is fine on target dummies/sims

[open depot]

As in with cds 😅

[hazy breach]

But in practice theres damage amps, huge pulls or just phases where damage is more important

[mental dune]

i mean definitely depends but for example for forgeweaver im pretty confident letting it stack up for damage amp would be better right?

[hazy breach]

So doubling it and giving it to the next guy with prism is good

But for example say theres a big damage amp at 4:30

Then you would use prism at 1:30 with 9 stacks and then hold for 18 stacks at 4:30

[open depot]

Okok, ty for answers

[still vector]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[mental dune]

also at least in m+ ive found a lot of success holding prism till 18 to carry boss damage
n then invite other dps that have more meaningful aoe profiles
to defend my position on big burst numbies

[hazy breach]

Forge is working, idk if you checked some other trinket

[limpid sage]

I do the opposite for pad

[hollow spear]

Pvp trinket doesn't work without the custom apl

At least it didn't a couple minutes ago

[hazy breach]

What

The custom apl from fuu is like -1.5% with the pvp trinket+prism

[hollow spear]

Without the APL posted earlier pvp + prism sims worse than with

No clue why

[hazy breach]

Are you simming latest

[hollow spear]

Yes

Will try again

[tribal blade]

hrm do i need to unmacro prism from blades

[shadow lance]

I fucking did it boyz

Over 10M

[idle pilot]

Could someone explain to me how sub cds work? Like, i'm fairly new. I mean i know what the abilities does but i find it really hard to manage my cds. D: Specifically when to cb and when to hold cds. D:

[short radish]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short radish]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[short radish]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[short radish]

hope this helps

[hollow spear]

Fimbul became the bot

[short radish]

(read the wowhead rotation guide)

[tribal blade]

!guy

[hollow spear]

Really weird. Now their result is comparable. Earlier I had a delta of 110k between prism + passive and prism + pvp, now it's the (correct?) 55k.

[slow bridge]

Hey uhm what build are we using in m+? I locked Up some Raider.io guys and some went cold blodded and some went thistle tea

[short radish]

tea

[idle pilot]

I understand how sub works, but i struggle with figuring out when should i use sd/sod w/ sectec for example before flag is back up etc.

Do i hold it for when flag is up? Or do i just full send and wait for the next sectech to come back up then send cds?

[spice lichen]

On patchwork I do like 4 from pull to second set of cds and it lines up pretty well

Oh w sechtech nvm

[void needle]

You're not going to like to hear this, but the build with both death perception and shadowcraft scales better with chaos brand than either darkbrew variation. The already existent gap between them grows by about .5% when you add chaos brand.

This is in pure aoe where darkbrew gains the most benefit as well

[short radish]

hold dance/symbols if flag is up in 25 seconds

[idle pilot]

So the rule is if <25s on flag you just hold cds?

[short radish]

yeah @alpine wraith has a spreadsheet

thats got a bit of a visual representation

[idle pilot]

Yeah, please link it. I'm just a boomer who plays assa. I haven't played sub since dranor D;

[mental dune]

dam single target too? any time i cut it that close i get a hefty bit where i wont be able to send 2 dances during blades
in aoe definitely easier to be more greedy

[slow bridge]

Always hold it you need 2 sd and 2sod If im Not mistaken

[hazy breach]

You need to be able to use 2 dances, 2 symbols and 2 sectechs in blades

[void needle]

25 is pretty greedy ngl

[mental dune]

like my general rule of thumb is ill be able to send 2 dances in blades if i press flag with at least 1 charge of dance + 35 seconds till next one

[hazy breach]

To do that you need atleast 1 charge and ~30 seconds left on your second charge of dance

[void needle]

30-40 seconds especially without 4 set

[idle pilot]

I have 4p, but forgeweaver mythic is just to hard playing deathstalker i need to learn how to play sub D:

[hazy breach]

And obviously 1 charge with atleast 9s left on symbols, and sectech ready

That should be the state you have everytime you cast flag

Thats #1 priority always

[idle pilot]

Ahh

[slow bridge]

And full combo points No?

[hazy breach]

Well yes

[void needle]

This is the most important thing. Whatever timing you think you can get away with on dance timer while still maintaining this

[hazy breach]

Missing a dance inbetween your cds isnt that bad, not being able to dance back to back during your cds is significantly worse

[idle pilot]

And i'm guessing you always send cb with your second sectech in your cd windows?

Or does it not matter?

[void needle]

Like I said I think 25 seconds is pretty greedy, if you're not certain just hold closer to 30-40 seconds away from blades

[void needle]

This is more important than extra cb casts for the most part

You "can" min max and use it with another dance SoD on cd after the first cast, but it's not very worthwhile

[mental dune]

id say 30-40 unless youre on like fractilus exclusively since if you ever have some amount of downtime 25 is absolutely too greedy right?

[rocky ocean]

[slow bridge]

After the frist burst Window do we use sd and sod again right after or WAIT

[idle pilot]

[void needle]

More often than not you'll scuff your cb that's actually important in the 2nd dance blades window

[idle pilot]

I mean i will most likley only play sub on forgeweaver just becauase i feel its way to hard to manage your mark properly as assa and fatebound is dog.

[hazy breach]

During shadow blades you should be dancing immediately once the first ends yes

[slow bridge]

Ah so we use it 3 times

And then hold it for the next window?

[void needle]

After your blades cast, you exhaust everything. 3 sods, 3 sectechs, 2 dances all at once.

[slow bridge]

Or can WE squeeze in 1 more

[mental dune]

on forgeweaver you can be more greedy with dances since its easier to get back dances in aoe for sure

[idle pilot]

Oh and when should i aoe? How many targets?

D:

[void needle]

You can squeeze 2-3 in downtime before next blade. Just be cognizant of your blades timer

[hazy breach]

4 or more you bp

[mental dune]

and outside of dance shuriken storm at 3+ yeah?

[slow bridge]

Ah i See so 2 in the flag window and 2 outside of flag

[fiery grove]

sorry if asked and answered but wasnt sure on the order of priority on opener with our new 4 set, if you proc coup before youve used super charged sec tech do you send the second coup before sectech or after?

my gut tells me sec tech

[hazy breach]

Not always, dont get hung up on the exact amount of casts

[mighty citrus]

do we use shurikenstorm now in dance too for aoe? or still only ss

[void needle]

I think 2 technically gets you more cp outside blades

[hazy breach]

Its not relevant and will change depending on how many targets you have

[slow bridge]

So better be Safe Just doing 1 Outside of flag

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

This is the most important

Make sure you always do this

[slow bridge]

Yo sub is actually fun to play

Damn

Once you figure it out

[tribal blade]

i think you want to backstab on 2 targets

because unseen procs

[void needle]

Welcome to the massive population of all 10 of us that have been playing this spec! XD

[slow bridge]

Just the stats are whack cant really Change Specs

[hazy breach]

What

Assa and sub use pretty much exactly the same stuff

[void needle]

You can play sin just fine

[vale pine]

we like mastery/vers/crit

so it should be easy to switch

[slow bridge]

Dont assa want haste?

[void needle]

Outlul is the one you can't really swap to easily

[slow bridge]

Or what happend to them

[mental dune]

naw outlaw is haste

[idle pilot]

Assa dosen't really care about stats.

[vale pine]

they like mastery and crit a lot this season

[slow bridge]

Nice

[vale pine]

even tho its a bit less sensitive

[void needle]

They don't hate haste as much as sub does, but mastery is their biggest stat for the most part

They don't hate vers and do really well with crit

[slow bridge]

I got 80 mastery 15% vers 21% critand 7% haste rn

[idle pilot]

I mean you do need some crit to play assa but rule of thumb is just to equip whatever is the highest ilvl and make sure you don't DR to much on secondarys

[void needle]

Too much haste 🤮

[slow bridge]

WE Go 1%?

[mental dune]

man i miss the like 1 week where i was almost at 2 digit haste last season

[swift tinsel]

That’s the lowest you can get

[vestal escarp]

ok sub is defo topping some keys with tier

[swift tinsel]

Since tier chest has haste

I guess IV put out a post saying we’re king shit

Which is cool

[slow bridge]

Wow so 0 haste on gear except chestpiece

[mental dune]

ideally

[void needle]

It's not terrible, just don't exceed about 10% of your overall stat points

[slow bridge]

Lovely

[swift tinsel]

If you end up with off-pieces that have haste while you’re gearing it isn’t going to brick your dps

[void needle]

^

[swift tinsel]

You just want to replace them eventually

[slow bridge]

Its my alt rn im only at 667 ilvl

So a little bit haste on ilvl upgrades

[swift tinsel]

Ye if you’re still gearing just prio getting tier

And ilvl

And work on replacing with crit/vers/mastery gear as you go

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach is it ideal to have prism not macroed to blades

[jagged dove]

Is there an ideal sort of sweetspot when it comes to crit unbuffed? I've really seen myself go low on crit i feel like.

23% crit
2% haste
85% mastery
24% vers

[hazy breach]

Literally just dont get haste

[swift tinsel]

I’ve been liking having 25-30% but ^

[hazy breach]

Thats all theres it to think about for stats

[swift tinsel]

Robot told me I had too much mastery so I swapped some stuff

[void needle]

What ilvl are you at?

[jagged dove]

701

[slow bridge]

My Main is brewmaster so i already hate haste sub is perfect for ne

[void needle]

I think that might be a little low actually

Sims have been force feeding me crit well over 30% even with vers in the 20's

[jagged dove]

Ohh, fair enough

[clever delta]

Guys, surely prism drop today and I get it over huntards right? Surely

[gaunt bluff]

what miss chance do u guys recommend simming antenna on?

like 20-30%?

[mental dune]

wait lowkey
why isnt cursed crit run more for ring enchants
n then with random alchemical chaos rolls you can have like 200 haste
the dream

[swift tinsel]

Also saying this prayer tonight for raid

[winged oriole]

Hi i am new to this spec and I want to learn the rotation. either single or aoe and what is rather preferable: trickster or deathstalker?

[void needle]

The points to % is different with crit too though. Numerically I have far more points in vers with a lower overall % than crit

[vestal escarp]

Why are huntards rolling your prism?

[clever delta]

They apparently play it too

As mm

[gaunt bluff]

its huge for mm st

[vestal escarp]

Doesnt mm have some simbait shit like idol + antenna?

[clever delta]

Its even more huge for sub tho

[violet palm]

Why my st sim did that?

[clever delta]

Idk, but one of hunters still running hoc 🧢

[hazy breach]

No, more like 5-10%

[still quartz]

!cubg

[swift tinsel]

Lol same

[still quartz]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[still quartz]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[void needle]

Damn I've been over cautious, I went with 20% miss on antenna and it's still a good trinket

[winged oriole]

I know but they differ slightly

[hazy breach]

The sim also just gets the orb whenever

In practice you could kite them for a bit to line em up with dance and stuff

Obviously not on every boss

But on a lot

[gaunt bluff]

i thought thats what the sim does tbh

[hazy breach]

No

[void needle]

That's what I've been playing with ngl

[gaunt bluff]

do u know if it does this for every class or just rogue?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt do anything like that

[tepid trellis]

i checked forge. it showed as -2% with my pacemaker, with custom apl its +1%

[hazy breach]

Fairly sure no class has added stuff like that to their APL

DHs mightve but surely not

[void needle]

DH's aren't that smart

[gaunt bluff]

👍

[void needle]

I wouldn't believe it if I saw it

[gaunt bluff]

i mean i wasnt sure if antenna was "simbait" in the too high or too low sense

[void needle]

It's actually just pretty solid so far

[shy ermine]

I keep pressing the wrong trinket playing double on use 🙃

[void needle]

I don't have prism so I'm using this damn wrathstone from ulduar, but it still slams

Antenna is very consistent

[swift tinsel]

Am stuck with soleahs until I get antenna from vault

[void needle]

There's other passive options

[swift tinsel]

Not that I’ve had drop my guy

[void needle]

Pacemaker is still excellent and farmable

[plain thorn]

sub harder than assa in m+?

[swift tinsel]

#subtlety message

[hazy breach]

Probably not

Different kind of difficulty though

[tepid trellis]

Assa is alot of platespinning

sub is math

[clever holly]

Sub is not spamming my let me restealth macro wich alone makes it superior

[void needle]

I mean you asked if you were stuck with it until you pull antenna from vault. There are farmable options that are far better than soleahs

[mental dune]

arent most of the equip trinkets from m+ about the same?
pacemaker is nice tho since you can farm the neck at the same time

[swift tinsel]

I actually didn’t ask at all

[hazy breach]

Also sitting in the vanish cuckchair to let TFD tick down while my party kills the mobs

[void needle]

?

[hazy breach]

So i can do big dam with my 18 stacker

[swift tinsel]

You added the question mark, not me

[void needle]

Don't be an ass, I was trying to be helpful

Ass channel is two up

[tepid trellis]

liar

[swift tinsel]

It was a declarative statement

[tepid trellis]

why would you lie to me

ruined my day smh

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/fortnite-gif-4169442390448293969

[slate marlin]

They are trying to make u read outlaw cahnnel stealthi

[tepid trellis]

cant believe you have done this

[swift tinsel]

If you gloss over Cats Dogs and Stuart

Heinous

[tepid trellis]

ill never be able to mentally recover from that betrayal

[swift tinsel]

So many cars

[vestal escarp]

Active outlaw threads

[tepid trellis]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-rain-stich-wet-cold-gif-7835445

[mental dune]

i mean listen the tfd cuck chair is worth it in the end so its ok
especially big momma
used to hate that boss last season
now with 18 stack + tfd + 4 set its cinema

[void needle]

I don't have those channels lmao

[tepid trellis]

there is even one more hidden one

[swift tinsel]

Sneaky raccoon

Respectfully ofc

[mental dune]

smh leaking the hidden channels

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/mapache-pedro-gif-7206648027763736533

[vestal escarp]

[void needle]

Fuck off. I was being helpful, you were just being an ass

"Am I" is generally not used to start a declarative statement in everyday contemporary English, although grammatically correct as a question. "I am" is the standard and correct way to begin a declarative statement referring to oneself.

[craggy atlas]

Hey guys, new to trickster. Should i track unseen blade cd in M+`? i find myself often using shuriken storm and not applying unseen blade enough

[swift tinsel]

I didn’t say “Am I” nor did I add a question mark

Chill dude

[tribal blade]

fun thing is you cannot track when it resets

[vestal escarp]

You mean debuff duration?

[swift tinsel]

Plz god add UB reset tracking in midnight

[tepid trellis]

am stuck please help

[vestal escarp]

No

Frictionight

[swift tinsel]

/stuck

[tepid trellis]

/yeet

[craggy atlas]

Yeah well i mean ideally i should apply unseen blade as often as possible right, but in m+ its problematic since you mostly shurkien storm for CPs

[swift tinsel]

…profit

Awaiting AI GM assistance

[tepid trellis]

my new years resolution is putting yeet back on the map

and i will succeed

[swift tinsel]

They set my hearthstone to Indonesia

[limpid sage]

remove unseen blade in midnight

[hazy breach]

Well, you strike whenever its available

[limpid sage]

make perforated veins coup instead

[craggy atlas]

Well how do I know when its available?

[hazy breach]

I meant as in

[swift tinsel]

Add 4pc to next row of trickster tree ong fr

[hazy breach]

Whenever you can strike

You strike

[craggy atlas]

ah yeah ofc, but outside of dance

im in the dark

[mental dune]

considering you still shadowstrike during dances for cp gain

• 4 set for big cd reduction meaning more dances
  the amount you storm is actually not that often

[swift tinsel]

Turn DS tree into an ash pile

[tribal blade]

we're all in the dark dw

[tepid trellis]

storm goes brrt outside of dance

[clever holly]

Go Jey Uso on that term (maybe an wwe insider)

[tepid trellis]

world wide ethernet?

[limpid sage]

legendary power that gives 4-set effect

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/skit-mumble-rap-skrrt-yeet-gif-23508277

[tepid trellis]

i unironically

sang that

yesterday

i cannot be stopped

[swift tinsel]

Lmao I drop that all the time

Roll up, drop that

[tepid trellis]

but tbf i also sang backsteets boys mid keys yesterday

freestyle mode

[swift tinsel]

You never loved me mommmmmm

[jagged dove]

is it ok to run 2x on use trinkets? I have lily for the first dance, and the prism for when the stacks are high

[mental dune]

i wish the 4 set gets baked into talents going into midnight so bad
i dont think i can give it up after this season

[tepid trellis]

with stuff happening in the key and not the actual text

[hazy breach]

Its fine

Theres probably a better trinket available, but its fine

[swift tinsel]

I did the Donkey Kong rap a few times here and there

[swift tinsel]

Lmao such a power move

[tepid trellis]

its why i stream without mic

cuz i sing

when i play

xD

[mental dune]

peak vibes

[tepid trellis]

along with my music

it has happened once or twice that i forget to mute myself on discord mid pull

ngl

[swift tinsel]

I do a good Laszlo Cravensworth impression so I send that all the time

I had his Succulent Chinese Meal line as my discord voice into lol

[void needle]

Remember, "am" is not a replacement for "i am" or "I'm" and should never be used to start a sentence unless it is a question. If the general interpretation for sentences in english starting with "am" is interrogative why would I be wrong for assuming you were asking a question?

[mental dune]

i have a tank that is encouraged to stay unmuted because hell randomly start singing during pulls
big morale boost

[clever holly]

Add some laser sounds to your ss and evis on your soundboard for extra feeling

[swift tinsel]

We had a guy who would does a perfect Beavis impression so he’d do raid callouts

We’d be fuckin dyinggggg

[tepid trellis]

i did surprise my guildies once with hitting a c5 mid pull once

i was vibing

[jagged dove]

Thanks 🙂 just trying to figure things out. Loving sub this patch

[swift tinsel]

Mariah Carey singin ahhh

[tepid trellis]

i can go a lil higher than that, but not comfortably

[swift tinsel]

Gotta stand up and project

[clever holly]

I can't even talk like a normal person I guess

[mental dune]

raiding with a standing desk exclusively so you can belt

[tepid trellis]

i dont even that light of a voice (or so ive heard)

[swift tinsel]

I smoked for like 15 years bc I was young and dumb so that scuffed my voice a good bit

[still quartz]

why do we cb for 2nd st instead of 1st st?

[hazy breach]

More flawless form stacks

[still quartz]

there was a reason but i forgot :/

[mental dune]

i thought it was since by 2nd sectec flag is stacked more?

[swift tinsel]

What’s the % gain for pre-disorient+vanish opener again

[hazy breach]

Slightly more than 1%

[swift tinsel]

Ah ye ty

[hazy breach]

Well sure its slightly more flag stacks, but the main thing is flawless form

[tepid trellis]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2538798258?t=4h53m49s
+8 is gonna be fine and then something about fortified is me talking

[swift tinsel]

I keep forgetting to do the vanish one

[swift tinsel]

Morning commute muzak

[calm urchin]

hey hey, kind of new to sub, always played sin, when do we generally BP if there is no prio target, 4+?

[swift tinsel]

Yea

[calm urchin]

thanks! and with prio target, even if more, we still evi correct?

[swift tinsel]

You can at 3 targets too but only if they all have find weakness

[calm urchin]

for example first pull gambit with the big dude

[swift tinsel]

If you really wanna tunnel them you can, might depend on your comp

[mental dune]

dependent on various factors
like if you have big prio/funnel spec in the group like arcane itd be less valuable
but if your whole comp is pad or the prio needs to die THAT bad then yeah

[still anvil]

if a high hp mob is still alive with significant hp at the end of the pull using bp was unnecessary 90% of times imo

[calm urchin]

agreed, thanks!

[still anvil]

unless you can just do a good chain instead and thus don't waste any time

[swift tinsel]

You can be the Great HP Equalizer

Let the rets pad the lil guys they get off on that

[shy beacon]

What trinkets are decent besides netherprism and forge? didnt get any of em in both normal and heroic so far x.x

[mental dune]

yeah i played a few keys with a ret buddy n i was just reduced to that 1 wonky iteration of bm in season 1 that went full ST in m+

[swift tinsel]

PvP badge, lily, sigil of the cosmic hunt, pacemaker

Antenna

[still quartz]

thanks 🙂

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[plain thorn]

Shadow dance and symbol should be macroed together?

[mental dune]

there are some situations where you dont press both consecutively so probably not

[tribal blade]

should not macro them together

[swift tinsel]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[tribal blade]

supercharger makes it not possible

plus sectec cd

[mental dune]

pretty common sequence if sectec has like 15-20 seconds till it comes back up is something like dance --> backstab --> evis --> symbols --> shadowstrike --> evis --> shadowstrike --> sectec

[warm marlin]

pretty early dance

[mental dune]

its happened quite a few times during blades esp last season if i got unlucky n didnt get coup
so im pretty sure i wanna use my 2nd dance immediately im just a bit sad

[warm marlin]

oh if it’s referring to blades then it’s not that bad

Thought you were talking about outside blades

[merry agate]

Bois...
The new Tier is so poggers

Cant describe the runners high hitting them 4 coup's in burst window 😤

[warm marlin]

would be very deprived of energy without a prior symbols active

[spice lichen]

but then i can't mindlessly macro sod+ dance and st+ cb

[mental dune]

oh yeah for sure if it was outside blades id just hold a little longer n vibing
but that scenario happens enough in blades to where macroing dance+symbols together is rough

[potent nimbus]

looking at logs for forgeweaver as im swapping from sin to sub on it, why are they popping cds at 30sec mark instead of pull?

[spice lichen]

adds come up at 30

[mental dune]

aligns with add spawns

[spice lichen]

and dmg amp at 2

same w/ lilbro boss before

[molten ivy]

Out of the loop, what is this? 😮

[potent nimbus]

cause was playing sub for first time since smolderon and i just felt really bad lmao

[mental dune]

man i wanna forget that canister boss existed
did it for the first time today n my brain giga short circuited on the kill pull
was randomly popping cds in between add phases n forgot to tempered pot till like 4 minutes in
was truly the worst

[potent nimbus]

and my macro for secret tech/cold blood and it said "spell not yet learned"

[swift tinsel]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[swift tinsel]

combine the Disorienting Strikes part with the old strike-flag-evisc-vanish-strike-rupture opener

[potent nimbus]

how do u fix that

[swift tinsel]

relog

or never swap to assassination

[lilac stag]

Reload sometimes works

[potent nimbus]

oh alright, i thought blizz just fucked the shit

ty

[swift tinsel]

they did

[molten ivy]

Ah man I missread that I thought you had to distract lmao

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[karmic harbor]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[cursive vapor]

top rogue memes 2025

[karmic harbor]

i just put cold blood on a seperate keybind incase it breaks

[swift tinsel]

probs the safest bet tbh

[lilac stag]

we’ve moved on from this one for the most part.

[potent nimbus]

yea i see u dont cb first secret which i was doing, was looking at the stuff on the fly

[cursive vapor]

classic

[lilac stag]

You can’t on the fly sub

take some time to learn it.

otherwise you’re gonna really hate your life

[potent nimbus]

wonder if its worth doing some lower m+ to get into rthym of it agian or if thats bad

[west socket]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[mental dune]

i will say i was really surprised at the amount of people swapping off assassin on forgeweaver wanting to first time sub
i dont like deathstalker very much but still dam

[potent nimbus]

i'd stay sin but i have no logs to go off of except for heroic ones

[mental dune]

yeah i cant imagine having your deathstalker mark fall off while youre on the pylons is a very enjoyable gameplay loop

[tribal blade]

wanting to first time sub on a mythic prog boss is kinda rough

but yeah that boss is a serious headache as DS

[still quartz]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[tribal blade]

it's wild they let DS remain that stupid

[still anvil]

I mean if you are willing to spend some time outside of prog to get down the burst rotation
the rest shouldn't be difficult at all

[tribal blade]

guess it depends on the person

but a lot of mythic raiders lose their minds playing sub

[mental dune]

i guess it depends right?
like if youre an incredible sin player then just getting by with just the burst probably isnt enough to make the switch worth it

definitely feeeeeeels way better playing sub on that fight tho

[tribal blade]

i still remember sin rogues going crazy because they had to swap to sub for smoldy prog

i was in a guild discord that had a few sin rogues in shambles over it lol

[still anvil]

just jumping into it as sub probably won't work, but I just mean that if you have the time to do idk, >10x keys as sub before to practice (and actually practice) I feel like it should be fine? but idk probably depends

[tribal blade]

i feel for me sub takes a bit to get the muscle memory down

but i'm not the best player

[short radish]

that's because you're an assi main

[mental dune]

yeah idk why i interpreted it this way but i was under the impression the people popping by unironically had forgeweaver prog that day or the day after

[tribal blade]

HAHA

[still anvil]

okay yea well that would be a bit questionable probably

[tribal blade]

returning back to the fold

hasn't updated my 15 streets yet sad

[still anvil]

they should do forgeweaver as sin and use the time it takes them to reach nexus king to learn sub probably xd

[merry agate]

Streets still on old timer on raider.io 😭

[tribal blade]

yeah that makes sense

that tends to happen whenever they change key timers

[mental dune]

is 35 minute streets chill now?
idk if it was accurate but when it was on 32 i saw some number floating around about it being like a 50% time rate

[swift tinsel]

I like ellesmere's suggestion to delete the oasis/rp area

[tribal blade]

we did conservative safe pulls in the first boss room

didn't go big

and we had a bunch of deaths

and still timed

so it's not bad now

we had 5 deaths

[hazy breach]

They atleast deleted one wave

[tribal blade]

yeah at least the oasis boss is faster now

which is huge

[swift tinsel]

yeah, I saw they adjusted that part what, this week?

[tribal blade]

yeah recently

[swift tinsel]

I'm mostly just mad that people keep stealing my saxophone

[mental dune]

i do think skipping the last miniboss makes a world of a difference
regardless of nerfs if pugs learned how to do that itd be awesome

[swift tinsel]

its mine

[tribal blade]

it keeps surprising me when the boss comes running out and i'm expecting more adds

[lilac stag]

Which build are you running? Tea or CB?

[tribal blade]

tea with rotten and DD+inev

no finality

NO PV

SCREW PV

[lilac stag]

I have to get back in the habit of slamming BP more

[swift tinsel]

I'm too inev-pilled to drop it

ye BP is trucking

[shy beacon]

Hows sub doing compared to assa in m+?

[swift tinsel]

been relying a bit more on the WA just to smoothbrain it

[tribal blade]

i feel like rupture spreading is slightly less worth now, not sure

but seems like just ook ook BP spamming is doing good dam

[lilac stag]

It’s not Assa so it’s better.

[swift tinsel]

I just do 2 casts then flag into rupture then go

hit the big guys

piss adds are whatever

rotten turns them all to mulch when you start cds

[shy beacon]

true xD wondering how it is performing compared to it, assa feels ugh

might need to learn to play it for raid, but yeah..

[swift tinsel]

sub is doing really well in keys now so you're less pressured to swap

[lilac stag]

they do things differently. All 3 specs are currently “S”

[swift tinsel]

not relying on funnel to do big boss dam is fun

[tribal blade]

honestly one of the biggest things about playing sub is you don't have to deal with being at the mercy of how your tank pulls/chains/doesn't put adds on bosses as sin

[shy beacon]

Isnt our ST pretty bad?

[swift tinsel]

nah

[tribal blade]

in keys no

sub is nuclear ST dam in keys

[swift tinsel]

in raid its on the lower end

ye we're feasting in m+

[still anvil]

it is in a vacuum compared to other classes in a vacuum, but we don't have to sacrifice any st damage for our m+ stuff (unlike most other specs)

[tribal blade]

sub trades off very little ST to be in aoe talents

[graceful terrace]

Is it a dmg gain to coup in aoe when we have procs over bp

[swift tinsel]

I'm now getting prio invites to guild keys so I'm tickled

ez vault fills lol

[mental dune]

but also on trash funnel is great
unless youre pugging n then there will 100% be an arcane
not only that the tank wont let you restealth

thats largely why i swapped from sin to sub
i pug so many of my keys to where its just more flexible to play sub

also sub has a lot of options esp with netherprism
you can do good boss dam or nuke a big pack

[swift tinsel]

idk 2 charges vanish makes me not really care too much about restealths as sin

[still anvil]

I did so many keys in the first 3 days, but wasn't able to play much since.
excited to do keys with big gear + 4p soon

[swift tinsel]

unless you're getting omega griefed by your tank

and they're leashing shitters pack to pack

[graceful terrace]

Seeing improvement thanks to all the people who are so helpful here. 10 FLOOD and still looking to improve

[swift tinsel]

climb that ladder big dawg

[shy beacon]

I wish I got netherprism, but both normal and hc and didnt drop at all

[swift tinsel]

[mental dune]

that is exactly what theyre doing
every single time
n it made me sad

also the amount of times running into cinderbrew with an arcane n the prio target died first pull before deathmark ended made me blow up

[graceful terrace]

Bump

[short radish]

yes

press coup

always press coup

[still anvil]

that feeling when you play sub and your arcane mage goes like "... did you focus my prio target again" 🤩

[swift tinsel]

coup big button

[late sable]

guys when should i in aoe switch to black powder?

[swift tinsel]

highest prio

[swift tinsel]

4 targets

[mental dune]

na thats the great part
now i can do that to the arcane on sub
chances are ive got fully stacked netherprism so i burst for 30+ mill n completely grief their cds

[swift tinsel]

man I'm fiending for a prism

[graceful terrace]

So I know I’ve asked this a couple times but the whole storm thing on my luxthos wa when I strike and bs I just see unseen blade go back to 10 secs and I still don’t see why we are doing storm

Or am I looking at the wrong buff

[swift tinsel]

is that fazed

the buff you're looking at

[graceful terrace]

Possibly ?

[mental dune]

ive been playing on luxthos too
its 100% fazed

[swift tinsel]

so you just wanna watch Escalating Blade

the one that stacks to 4

[graceful terrace]

Is that the brown blade one

[mental dune]

yes

[swift tinsel]

yeah

it doesn't have a duration

until you coup with 4pc then its 5 sec

imo you don't really need to track fazed unless you have coup up

like I just have a border glow on my EB aura that's set to activate when I have 4 stacks and fazed is up

saves screen clutter

[graceful terrace]

So are you literally just meaning we don’t get a stack of EB if we have a coup so strike and be are a waste?

[swift tinsel]

yep

[graceful terrace]

Bs*

[swift tinsel]

so we storm to generate cp because it can't proc unseen blade

in shadow blades*

and outside sometimes too if shadow technique stacks allow

[graceful terrace]

And it’s ok to finish with a coup on 3?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

as long as you get the coup out before the buff runs out

ideally you cast 2nd coup with 6+ but if you can't get that before the timer runs out you can just send with whatever cp you have

[graceful terrace]

And what is the best way to apply fazed for a coup if not up

[swift tinsel]

you can pool some energy/sht stacks outside dance

sectech

[graceful terrace]

So it just happens naturally

[mental dune]

wait is it really just in blades?
coup is +5 points so if you get just 1 point from storm thats fine enough right?
i mean youre still a bit sad but still

[graceful terrace]

Blades will give you full comp

[swift tinsel]

you can outside blades too, its just less considerations in blades

[graceful terrace]

Cp

[swift tinsel]

iirc it was pretty neutral to storm or not outside blades for 2nd coup

[potent nimbus]

is it worth running the forgeweaver build in m+ to get the rotation/burst windows down before going back into mythic

[graceful terrace]

Hap would you happen to have any small optimization tips or anything you think I might be missing outside of CDs with the way our set plays

Like a quick in dance and CDs vs outside with 4 piece

[mental dune]

there are so few talent changes the rotation doesnt really change
besides the choice of thistle tea vs cold blood
but cold blood is still good in m+ anyways

[graceful terrace]

I know it’s kinda open ended

[swift tinsel]

big thing is just making sure you can cast the 2nd coup, if you end up wasting an EB stack here and there its whatever

over the course of a fight/dungeon it won't int your damage or brick your key

damage outside cd's is pretty negligible so the focus is just making sure you're farming cdr for your next flag window

[mental dune]

unironically if you just ran raid talents in m+ as sub you might not even notice for a few keys

at least until cheat death procs

[spice lichen]

are people finally buying into the sub train

[swift tinsel]

we're getting good press

[mental dune]

yeah isnt that exciting

[spice lichen]

I keep queuing for keys as sin and swapping before key goes in

[potent nimbus]

cause i just looked at my damage to the arcane manifestation and i am the lowest, just above tanks

[violet palm]

It's kinda weird to play w/o The Rotten to apply find weakness in m+. How do we do it now?

[spice lichen]

just crit ez

[swift tinsel]

storm gains like 26% or so crit chance from talents so that helps

[mental dune]

sub on forgeweaver is 1 of 2 things
or both at the same time
nuke absolutely everything on the screen when a bunch of adds start spawning
or 2. push boss super hard during damage amps

[violet palm]

Do we intentionally SS once or twice during first blades in pack?

[swift tinsel]

SS as in storm or strike

[violet palm]

Oh. I forgot we rapture something prio to SB window

[swift tinsel]

they have the same initials lol

[violet palm]

I meant storm

[spice lichen]

disc priest spy

[swift tinsel]

if you have blades up you want to strike as much as possible, you'll have some FW out from storming to spread rupture pre-flag

if you don't run rotten you don't really cast storm in blades outside of between coups with 4pc

[haughty rose]

with the thistle tea build it's important to not run below 30 energy to not waste a charge right?

[swift tinsel]

eh not really

if you're concerned about it just spend energy to not cap and you'll be pretty safe

[haughty rose]

why not? if i backstab spam on a pack with low HP i would waste a charge for the next pack no?

[mental dune]

but if youre running rotten are you still using storm as the first builder after sectec?

[swift tinsel]

if you're outside cds on a pack with low hp you're not really contributing damage so don't worry about spending all your energy

backstab spamming on a pack with low HP isn't gonna accomplish much

[warm marlin]

Your goal at the end of a pack should be to build spend for dance/sectec cdr if needed and pool coup/sht for next pull

[merry agate]

PEAK spec immersion 🙏

[swift tinsel]

ye bc all of our damage is condensed into cd windows you're basically just prepping for your next one

[swift tinsel]

I still strike-sectech-storm-bp bc muscle memory

[mental dune]

valid
ive caught myself doing that as well here n there
i didnt actually know the reason for pressing storm once after sectec
was just doing it because i was told to
so never made the mental connection that i dont need to anymore

[swift tinsel]

storm will make premed pointless if you use storm first at certain target counts

[merry agate]

Still having doubts pressing evis sometimes...

Afraid to loose Stacks of old Tier

[swift tinsel]

that's why I never thought about it at all last season

https://tenor.com/view/long-hair-indique-hair-celebrity-rihanna-hairstyle-for-long-hair-gif-21529551

[merry agate]

That shit was never just 15% Chance... NEVER

[swift tinsel]

I just pretended I didn't have a tier set lol

[slate marlin]

Ir was 0% chance then 100% right before cds

[merry agate]

Near season end i deleted weakaura for it yeah..

Stop worrying and start loving not knowing you have no stacks

[slate marlin]

I ended up completely ignoring tier just for ny mental health

[mental dune]

we had a tier set?

[nocturne hollow]

How come sub does not take black powder anymore, we really jsut do our st rotation now? Hit like 20mill dps on big pull doing st, crazy

[hazy breach]

What

BP at 4 or more targets

[nocturne hollow]

The mythic+ does not even take bp anymore

[hazy breach]

Well its baseline

[mental dune]

black powder isnt a talent

[hazy breach]

You always have it

[cunning notch]

yo i havent played sub since S1 anything changed or still casino spec ?

[hazy breach]

Why would sub be a casino spec

[haughty rose]

bc we are spectral gamblers

[cunning notch]

the "random" combopoints you get with the

wait

forgor

the name

[mental dune]

also you can still hit 20 million on a big pull without black powder since nimble flurry exists
so you just naturally have some cleave while doing single target rotation

[hazy breach]

Those are not particularly random

[vale pine]

its not random ^^

shadowcraft procs based on sht stacks

[cunning notch]

in league of legends terms how does it work

[hazy breach]

It procs every 3.5 melee hits

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/we-dont-do-that-here-black-panther-tchalla-bruce-gif-16558003

not unless armin is in chat

[mental dune]

3 hit passive
leagues favorite mechanic

[cunning notch]

[vale pine]

the randomness we have comes from the 2p, critical strike or thousand cuts

and thats in line with what other classes have

[cunning notch]

gotcha

[mental dune]

rogue does absolutely have a casino spec tho
just not sub

[cunning notch]

those

pesky

sword players

[vale pine]

sht is every 3rd auto attack 50%, and if it does not proc guranteed on the 4th. also -1 on both during symbols due to shadowcraft

[haughty rose]

speaking of new tier set, do we still press b2b dance during blades?

[nocturne hollow]

Ah ok thank you, but best to press bp in big pulls?

[mental dune]

bp on 4+ during dance
so not even just big pulls
pretty small ones its good too

[hazy breach]

Yes

[frank narwhal]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[stoic pier]

Is there any difference putting the algari diamond gem on the neck vs ring ?

[thick flax]

no

[plain creek]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hoary orchid]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[half bolt]

which guide do you recommend if i am willing to take a small dps loss for simplicity / learning the spec? rotations seem to be different for different guides

[alpine wraith]

rotation should not change much across guides

just optimizations for min max explained but if you dont want to bother just take the loss

[sullen hare]

Maybe not focus too hard on the optimizations

Yeah that

[gloomy slate]

I can’t tell if the raid is laggy or I need to lower my combat lag tolerance

Like sub just feels weird

Compared to earlier expansions

[alpine wraith]

some bosses like dimensius are laggy ye

[gloomy slate]

I’m at 250 cus I play mage as well

[short radish]

feels pretty shit but also probably start of season things with everyone and their roommate playing wow

[swift tinsel]

soulbinder and araz tank my fps quite badly

[gloomy slate]

Make wow less popular!!!

[swift tinsel]

day one it crashed me to desktop multiple times

[gloomy slate]

I bet you they are being cheap with servers again

Cus they don’t wanna upgrade due to people dropping off a month out

[alpine wraith]

their netcode is from the 2000s

when even load balancing and node redistribution were in its infancy

does not help they have checks for procs that repopulate on every player

like if you proc x

everyone has to know

and it is done serverside

that is why it is impossible to do pvp with lots of people

[lilac stag]

25-30 player raids have been shit for years.

open world. Hahahahahav

[rain void]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[fallen crescent]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[sleek musk]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[loud brook]

we are like almost pure physical like outlaw right?

[fickle mason]

Would sub be broken if they added some ST damage?

Like another 5-10 percent

[lilac stag]

In m+ yes

[chrome fern]

is a dance + symbols + backstab macro cooked?

[swift tinsel]

like half and half phys and shadow

[lilac stag]

You never macro dance and symbols

[chrome fern]

perchance why not, so that your second dance in cd's isn't wasting symbols?

[swift tinsel]

!burst

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[swift tinsel]

^

[chrome fern]

excuse my dumb ass, but could you not macro it to sec tec then?

[swift tinsel]

only thing that you should realistically macro to sectech is cold blood, as long as you have a naked sectech bind

and the only thing you should macro to symbols is nothing

theres too many if/thens with sub to justify having any of those three spells macro'd together

[trail dawn]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[left ledge]

Can’t wait to kill forge and still not see the trinket

0 antenna, 0 prism, 0 forge

[loud brook]

why is it only half and half? isnt the only source of our shadow from blade and its only a single digit percentage?

[left ledge]

Shadowed finishers

It is one of subs core damage passives

[chrome fern]

shadowblades also adds 20%

during it's uptime*

[alpine wraith]

im surprised i got prism from lfr

saved my ass

because im not getting it soon

[left ledge]

I got from vault

[chrome fern]

why do we want to immediately slam the secnond dance?

[left ledge]

I’d be fucked otherwise

[left ledge]

Well you want to have as much of it in blades as possible

But you also want to make sure you’re using sectec first

[chrome fern]

yeah. but as in previous tiers, you have ample room to not slam it immediately and still fit a second in blades

[left ledge]

So make sure sectec is up at least or about to be up

Idk what previous tiers you mean exactly but blades is shorter than it was

It’s now iirc 16 sec

Which can barely fit 2 dances

[chrome fern]

just reading that now, yeah, i think it was 20

i have a macro cause i remember we'd delay second dance cause flag stacks

[left ledge]

Flag stacks are pretty much guaranteed max by your second dance

Your second dance is the juicy one

That’s where cb sectec is

[chrome fern]

yeah that's what im looking through atm, i sorta just came back to the spec on heroic araz, cause i was pulling my hair out playing sin

[placid crown]

Hello, I'm checking top logs, I'm wondering why most of them use only 1 coldblood every 1min30. Why not use the second one on CD with a basic evis or coup ? It will come back anyway for the next 1min30 rota anyway. I don't get it, it's just a free coldblood not used.

[alpine wraith]

mostly because the rules for CB are a little bit dicey

[left ledge]

So the problem with that is if you used it outside of cds it doesn’t add that much and if you don’t have it back up you lose a lot of dps

It’s a tight window

[alpine wraith]

with new set even if you enter flag with 14 secs of cb left as it should be

you can proc extra cdr from coups

that make you have sec tech but cb at like 1-3 secs cd left

[left ledge]

You technically CAN do it but you must be very quick to use it

[alpine wraith]

and it is a loss to not use sec tech as it comes off cd

nah it is not good anymore

[hazy breach]

Or you need to delay flag & blades

[alpine wraith]

yea have to delay

[hazy breach]

Which is not good

[alpine wraith]

i also changed safe cb from 14 to 10 secs kind because of that

but still it is a bother

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean you’d need sectec up with cb at exactly when cb comes back off cd and insta press it

Chances of that happening might be near zero

And even then

Doesn’t do anything

Just never press your cb macro outside of second dance sectec in cds

[chrome fern]

so sectec is first finisher again, say it's at 4 secs left, and you had 6 cp, would you wait the 4 secs, or send evis and claim the cdr

[indigo steppe]

if I have prism, forge, and antenna which 2 should i be using in m+ and raid? I see people using double on-use but I'm not sure if that requires really specific fight lengths

[left ledge]

Is this for when you’re in cooldowns or just in general?

[chrome fern]

in general

[left ledge]

Get your sectec up before you sod and dance in general

[hazy breach]

A lot of the power of sectech is tied to disorienting strikes in the trickster tree, especially this season with the tier bonuses

So thats why you typically want to use it as soon as possible during dance to be able to get those stacks off asap

[chrome fern]

i guess my question boils down to what is the trigger for dance window, cause it used to be symbols charge cd. i guess now it's sectec

[hazy breach]

Mostly sectech ye

[left ledge]

They’re tied kinda

Sod and sectec

[placid crown]

And how much do you feel bored by procs when you can coup but sectec is up ? 😄

[left ledge]

You’ll never encounter a situation where you just naked dance with Sectec outside of extended mass aoe

[chrome fern]

i know thsoe two are tied, but there is the dance / symbol desync to play around

which i think is just an opener thing no?

[hazy breach]

Every blades

[chrome fern]

or rather 1:30 cd thing

[hazy breach]

But yes

[left ledge]

The rule of thumb with dances is to make sure you always have 2 dances for cds, and outside of cds coming up, make sure you have a dance for every sod/sectec

Those are the two priorities really

So if you have sod and sectec, one dance charge and say 30 to the next one with flag coming up in 20

You would not send

You would farm sht and wait

[round grotto]

guys sorry for the question im not sure i understand this phrase correctly does it say i always black powder on 3 tagets + no matter if i have flawless form or not

[placid crown]

I understand : if flawless form not up but you have 3 targets or more : use black powder

[left ledge]

Yes, that’s what that says

[alpine wraith]

prism and forge perform quite good but if you dont want to bother with 2 on uses antenna is fine too

[left ledge]

4+ I think is what people generally go with

But bp is a very strong button rn

[round grotto]

but most of the time flawless form is up

so i never press bp ?

[left ledge]

You still do with that target count

[hazy breach]

Press BP at 4 or more targets

[cursive vapor]

no

[left ledge]

Just under 4 you don’t

[rain kernel]

so yer saying in my dance and symbols i still press BP. with 4+ targets? like Shadowstrike > BP > SHadowstrike > BP....only use coup if its up?

[round grotto]

aight cool

thanks

[left ledge]

Yes

You will be striking into bp

[placid crown]

on packs that last a long time and if you dont have sod/dance, you finally come to a point where flawless form ends.

[left ledge]

Ofc storm once or twice before for fw

[rain kernel]

thank you...one more question if u dont mind....what if i dont have findweakness on all targets...or only on few...should i still follow the rule?

[left ledge]

Yes if FW is on 4+

You’re good to bp

[swift tinsel]

3+

[left ledge]

Doesn’t have to be on every target

Just throw a storm or two and you should be fine

[hazy breach]

Press BP at 4 or more targets

[swift tinsel]

4+ targets in general

ye

[hazy breach]

Its not complicated

Literally just that

Press BP at 4 or more targets

[rain kernel]

understood.. thank you thank you

[left ledge]

Yeah the FW tracking is kinda just minmax mostly useless

Assume the storm did its job

[high eagle]

Yea Ive just been throwing storm and spreading rupture as tank pulls and it's usually always on plenty of targets.

[left ledge]

Yeah that’s fine

[analog hearth]

This is for most damage, sometimes you want prio damage or more boss damage and you change to evis looking at pack hp

[left ledge]

Sub is better at aoeing than prio/funnel but yeah

Ofc don’t grief to aoe

[analog hearth]

More for like on Araz

[left ledge]

If a mob has to die, kill it

[analog hearth]

You never bp

[hazy breach]

I mean you still do lots of prio from strikes and coup anyway

So its

[analog hearth]

Kush and perfecto did not BP once

[left ledge]

I mean on Araz you CAN bp

You just most likely won’t even have time to

Just don’t grief your rotation on the boss

[analog hearth]

Well on mythic you do even with the nerfd

[left ledge]

Flurry does most of the work

[hazy breach]

The main reason to BP is to have more chances at applying crippling

[distant sage]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[hazy breach]

Since if youre not storming youre not gonna be slowing them

[left ledge]

Can flurry crippling

I actually don’t even know

[hazy breach]

No

[tepid trellis]

thats my excuse if i get asked

[left ledge]

Rip

[hazy breach]

Nor can sectech

[analog hearth]

It's so inconsistent it's not worth considering because your guild will have cc rotations that cover it all

[tepid trellis]

bp goes brrrrrrrrt

[left ledge]

Bp does hit pretty hard

Nice button

[frank path]

i was told yes by guy

[left ledge]

I’m hitting that shit with 0 energy and no dances

[frank path]

and i saw crippling on the adds

[left ledge]

Well we now have conflicting info

[chrome fern]

rip padders

[left ledge]

We are the padders

That’s this whole spec identity now

Pad

If there’s pad you bet your ass sub rogue is near the top

[chrome fern]

how we have fallen, no more "im funneling with shuriken for more evis"

[left ledge]

Adds = sub rogue

We completed half circle

Few more expansions and we will be back to combo

[graceful terrace]

is there a special api to sim the netherprism?

[proper latch]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Blade flurry yes

Nimble flurry no

[placid crown]

I have an other question : you have sectec and coup up, and 7combo points charged. What do you do ? In a pack of mobs, whatever i'm in dance or not and whatever if there is flawless form or not, I would sectec, storm, coup, coup. Vs a single target i would do same if i have enough virtual combo points to be at 7 with a storm. The idea : to not use backstab or strike that would lose the 2 stacks of invisible blade given by the sectec. By doing this, i could sectec - storm - coup - coup - strike (-> 1.35 stack for coup) - strike (-> 1.35 stack for coup). (the "0.35" is to remember the P4 effect). So, good or bad idea ?

[hazy breach]

Always sectech when its up

[placid crown]

the question is more on : with coup up, do you do storm to save the 2stacks or bs/strike and you lose them ?

(considering that during dance and with flawless form up, strike would deal more dmgs than storm)

[tepid trellis]

from looking at araz logs, it doesent

[left ledge]

Nice

[small mantle]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[left ledge]

I’m pressing bp to slow adds

[hazy breach]

Blade flurry does, so people probably assume nimble flurry would aswell

But no, nimble is bugged as shit and doesnt work with anything

[chrome fern]

my sub optimal min max plan, is to have 2 sectec binds, one for blade and one for cb. and to bind symbols with sectec. It may be a shit plan, but my brain needs time to adjust to having to natty press symbols

[tepid trellis]

same 🤝

[frank path]

yeah it seems i only applied crippling with shuriken storm maybe

[eternal sequoia]

Hi, I really need your help. Can someone take a look at the logs and tell me what I'm doing wrong? It would be a great help. Thank you very much.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LpRBh84vxqJrXyPc
name Macievko ty 🙂

[woeful wren]

Is sub AoE same idea as ST just with powder instead of evi?

i.e u play around ur flag window

[swift tinsel]

that's the gist of it

[woeful wren]

ty

[indigo steppe]

Check the opener, also looks like you are running an m+ build because you have thistle tea

[graceful terrace]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/9bvxQfXga42CVJZh?fight=7&type=damage-done

someone please fine tune me on log in dm

[frigid schooner]

my oh my sub is crushing

[woeful wren]

actually a question. do u guys when playing the tea build try to stay above auto use range outside of burst window?

[eternal sequoia]

I play better with it. But it won't be a problem anyway. I also have pulls there where I play without tea.

[placid crown]

How can these players start their rota again so early after the start of the 2nd boss' purge ?

[alpine wraith]

what do you mean early

[warm marlin]

The push happens around 1 minute

[alpine wraith]

yea

[warm marlin]

You’re back on boss by like 1:10 1:15

[frigid schooner]

i dont understand the issue

i am confused about the question

[alpine wraith]

just rupture the adds

then go back to boss

[tepid trellis]

looking at the kill timer isnt that normal or smth

[warm marlin]

It’s heroic

So no adds

[placid crown]

yeah HM. Purge starts at 03:12, some players use flag at 03:12 as if they were not pushed to the start of the room

[tepid trellis]

warlock gate and shadow steps would be my guess

[warm marlin]

I think the push timing depends on how fast your group breaks the shield

Lorrgs by default uses the mechanic timers from the number 1 log

Iirc

[placid crown]

are you bingus?

[warm marlin]

The second guys group probably turbo fast broke the first shield so their push was super early

Ya

[placid crown]

damn

gg

[warm marlin]

gg

[placid crown]

u deal 0.5M more than the second subrogue. wth x)

[warm marlin]

big loot funnel

[vale pine]

just don't forget to use evis with a coup proc

[warm marlin]

Mythic antenna

[chrome fern]

the shuriken between coups, is this a bug or a feature, any communication of a fix/change?

[woeful wren]

Ye, used to it with outlaw. Do u guys ever send 2x coups on low CP to not waste or do u always shuriken for 2nd

[tepid trellis]

during blades

[chrome fern]

i'd imagine shuriken, cause you'll never have cp if not max cause blades

[tepid trellis]

storm between

[warm marlin]

Sub can’t send a low cp followup finisher the way outlaw can

[tepid trellis]

normal dance

just shadowstrike

[warm marlin]

Need to build or get a reset

[chrome fern]

i need a laymans breakdown on which fights are better for sub or sin

[woeful wren]

would it never line up with shadow techs?

[warm marlin]

Well then it wouldn’t be low cp

[tepid trellis]

first 3 doesent matter at all,
Araz sub
soulhunters Assa probably does more but is complete dispair to play so sub
fractilus Assa
nexus king Sub
Dimensiues currently sub

[woeful wren]

ig I mean without having to press builder

[chrome fern]

yeah i walked into araz and was like "nope i aint fucking doing mark management"

[warm marlin]

Ya u can if u get shadowcraft reset but otherwise no, unlike outlaw that will also get reset to where it is castable at least

[open depot]

What do I do with coup proc if no SoD or SD?

[tepid trellis]

press it, if you arent less than 20sec away from blades

[crystal bone]

2 months from now when my guild gets to fract, sub angle surely by then right

[tepid trellis]

likely not

[open depot]

And if I am close to blades I just wait ans do no finisher?

[crystal bone]

[tepid trellis]

cant really apply FW outside of your dances unless you wanna send 45 energy storms

[warm marlin]

it’ll be a sub angle because the boss is a pushover

Or a whatever you like best angle

[plucky sluice]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[chrome fern]

how does it work if you are less than 20? BP as finishers?

[tepid trellis]

20-10 you can send bps and rupture when you need to refresh last 10-0 you do nothing at all just sit at max cp and click stab whenever you are about to overcap energy

[plucky sluice]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[crystal bone]

that was my thinking

12% buff and 20 more ilvl

or w/e

[tepid trellis]

frac is a push over right now

guilds are fcking 4 shotting him

they fcking blew the nerfs

[crystal bone]

oh he got nerfed?

lmao

[tepid trellis]

yes

they completely ruined it

[crystal bone]

yea thats unfortunate

i felt like he was properly tuned

so u cant do a damage check week 1

ok

theres 8 months to go

[tepid trellis]

i really fcking hate blizzards new trend of just insta nerfing

[warm marlin]

I mean boss was cooked from the beginning

Patchwerk + wa

only hope was tuning and they instantly brick that too

[chrome fern]

nerf the dragonriding if anything, my healer cant get to dimensius platform in time 🙁

on normal

[warm marlin]

ya I had to miss a singular raid day and now I’m looking at missing the kill of both forge and frac

kind of cringe ngl

[tepid trellis]

im about to do 6 bosses nm split

into mythic reclear