subtlety

[dusk stone]

i was wondering how you guys were getting 8-10mil overalls, it doesnt get that without prism tbh

[flat marsh]

Subts good in m+ I think it's better than sin in most cases imo

[kind bluff]

Do we run double on use in keys?

[dusk stone]

option

double on use or prism + your choice

seaforium, antenna, sigil all sim closeish

[sweet cypress]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[void needle]

They are pretty even damage wise. General tier lists I think put sin higher because they prioritize the funnel damage they bring

[dusk stone]

antenna best

[flat marsh]

Pull more, bp more, always pull something into bosses

[dusk stone]

we were

[rustic raven]

Hey Guy i hear you’re the Lebron James of rogue. That true?

[dusk stone]

best i got was 7.2 in flood with my tank doing that yeah

[keen dome]

Yeees

[void needle]

lmao I pulled it from the normal pug I ran yesterday and immediately had cash offers over 500k

[dusk stone]

i want antenna myself

[icy knot]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[dusk stone]

which kinda works because i joined a raid guild and they're loot counciling and im pretty much top dps lol

[keen dome]

Now to figure out how to use this thing..

[dusk stone]

on 1:30 and then whenever you feel like its optimal to store damage and become a nuclear weapon

[keen dome]

glorious

[void needle]

lmao I want it so bad

Didn't drop from my fractilus runs this week at all

[lucid jackal]

Many people have said this yes

[void needle]

For people with both already. Yall fuck with running prism/forge. Or would you prefer to run prism passive

[graceful terrace]

Is it still good to storm in between coup de graces if I’m full cp

[hollow forum]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[digital aspen]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[swift tinsel]

no if you get a shadowcraft refund between coups you just send

the storm is to not waste EB stacks

[graceful terrace]

EB is exil blade?

[dusk stone]

the only weird thing is on first pull you arent as good. but some 1st pulls of dungeons are like 20-30 sec long so you get 3 charges, 3 charges at hero track is hoc basically

[swift tinsel]

escalating blade, the stacking buff that grants coup

[keen dome]

Yeah I was wondering about first pulls, esp on bosses

[dusk stone]

its totally fine

[graceful terrace]

And the shadow craft refund is when I evis and get to send again I assume

[swift tinsel]

yep

[graceful terrace]

I thought that was shadow tech

[dusk stone]

two charges on champ track is 6k mastery, lilly gives like 9k + 9k base

[void needle]

Does eb and shadow tech's stacks clear on m+ start?

[dusk stone]

so i guess it short but w/e

[void needle]

Or can I cheese min/max the first pull

[swift tinsel]

during symbols of death if you have enough shadow technique stacks to refund your full cp bar you will when you spend

when talented into shadowcraft*

[graceful terrace]

And symbols is the only activator?

[swift tinsel]

for shadowcraft yes

[graceful terrace]

I see

[lucid jackal]

Most ppl put sin higher in the tier list because people don't actually have any idea when making tier lists 9/10 times

[dusk stone]

i was giga hesitant until im almost done with halls and see 12mil overall before bosses

[void needle]

True! XD

[swift tinsel]

basically if you have symbols up and 7+ shadow technique stacks your next finisher will refund combo points

[void needle]

I just play sub man, I don't really care where sin sits

[keen dome]

Yeah, making my WA and testing it, makes a lot of sense. Appreiciate the advice!

[graceful terrace]

I never really tracked it this hard im really starting to dive deeper into it every season

[neon frigate]

How is sub doing this season? Again c tier compared to ret?

[dusk stone]

that feeling u get when u see 4pc damage is the same when you see prism

[swift tinsel]

it's a good idea to track those stacks

[lucid jackal]

Its very strong

[void needle]

Man fuck ret

[swift tinsel]

hey they re-opened their channels

after getting a whole cinematic

[dusk stone]

are there any damage amps im not thinking of in keys

[alpine wraith]

no in keys we just do a lot of dmg

only full st we are quite mid

but still decent

[neon frigate]

BP is buffed that is nice!

[void needle]

It changes things that I don't particularly like

I like the evis cleave being better until higher target counts

Now it's bp at 4, possibly 3 if you have weakness on them

[swift tinsel]

yep its poop

the lower you go below nimble's target cap for bp, the worse-off the spec is imo

[graceful terrace]

@swift tinsel if I’m storming between Reg and 4 set coup how is it that I would waste EB stacks? Isn’t it just for a chance to apply find weakness before coup 2?

[shy beacon]

Do we want to eviscerate in aoe while shadow dance or we black powder?

[lucid jackal]

Sub is one of the best specs in the game on 2 of the walls of the raid

its also good in keys

spec is very good rn

[graceful terrace]

BP 4+

@shy beacon

[shy beacon]

ait, thanks!

[swift tinsel]

you storm so you don't waste potential EB stacks by casting Strike or Backstab

[void needle]

3 if they all have expose weakness debuff

[shy beacon]

and do we want to keep rupture up? or only we apply in downtime?

[swift tinsel]

since those two can proc EB and storm can't

[dusk stone]

oh

prism for big momma

[void needle]

Apply in downtime and usually immediately after flag before major cds

[graceful terrace]

So basically it’s just to get to 6+ cp for coup

[swift tinsel]

you need to build combo points to spend second coup, so you storm with blades up to generate those combo points

[graceful terrace]

I see

[swift tinsel]

you can spend on like 3+ cp since coup is cast with 5 'extra' combo points

6+ is ideal

but not required

basically just don't let buff fall off without casting 2nd coup

[dusk stone]

you have 3 seconds to build 7cp twice basically

[graceful terrace]

You mean sb

[dusk stone]

storm storm works ig

[graceful terrace]

Ahhhhh

[loud brook]

do i just stack mastery/vers all the way? im like over 100 mastery now is there gonna be a heavy dr?

[graceful terrace]

The 4 set is timed

I forgot

[dusk stone]

storm storm and storming for 2nd coup is best ig

[left ledge]

Sim

Nobody here knows the answer

[swift tinsel]

can always bank a few shadow techniques stacks before sending first coup

[graceful terrace]

Do you guys track the 4 set dmg timer in any way?

[left ledge]

If anybody pretends to know they’re delusional

[swift tinsel]

yes

[dusk stone]

liquid ahead on dimensius again but race is fairly even atm

[swift tinsel]

if you track EB it will turn into a 5second buff once you spend first coup

since its the same buff name/spellID

[graceful terrace]

Hm I wonder if luxthos has been doing it and I haven’t noticed

[left ledge]

Yeah tracking UB and Coup is necessary

[dusk stone]

essentially what i do is if my optime is perfect i will try for 2x 7's

[left ledge]

You can’t play sub efficiently without tracking

[dusk stone]

if there's any downtime or w/e just send it

[swift tinsel]

I'll vanish-strike for premed between if its worth

otherwise I just get like 2-3sht stacks before sending coup

ez

[left ledge]

There’s some optimizations to be made with it that I believe aren’t posted yet

[void needle]

I use luxthos, It's right at the top for eb

[left ledge]

Like if you can, getting the second coup charged is worth it

Sometimes I enter dance and stab, if it procs coup, I coup into sod into sectec into coup

A lot of niche situations for sub with this tier

[fast meteor]

eating guaranteed unseen blade procs feels extremely wrong

[graceful terrace]

You guys macro bs to dance?

[left ledge]

It is

[graceful terrace]

For the stack

[sick jackal]

is any1 else having issues with coldblood tech macro?

[left ledge]

Unless there’s nothing you can do about it

You wouldn’t storm 3x for example just to save a ub

[fast meteor]

right but

[left ledge]

Did you swap from fb sin

[quaint orbit]

Relog

[runic trail]

!cbug

[fast meteor]

i come from playing outlaw

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[left ledge]

If so, relog

[fast meteor]

where you would just send it at 2-3 cp

[graceful terrace]

My muscle memory keeps fucking me when I go into dance and I keep striking instead of bs

[sick jackal]

yeah thanks

[left ledge]

You can absolutely do that as sub if you’re outside of cd windows

If you just proc it at a time where you won’t dance for a while

You kinda just send

[fast meteor]

ye

[left ledge]

You don’t hold coup for like 20 sec for example

[fast meteor]

idk i don’t think the apl does that much tho

[swift tinsel]

unless flag is coming up

[left ledge]

^

[fast meteor]

i think it would just build and spend like normal

[left ledge]

Yeah if flag is coming up you hold everything

You don’t even spend anything

You just sit and wait building sht

[void needle]

Lmao I remember s1 where you would hold coup forever until you could dance, would bp in st

[swift tinsel]

just gotta be mindful of sectech cd if you're gonna do that

[winter ice]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[left ledge]

Yeah lol, s2 was like that too except rupture

[graceful terrace]

What time on cd would you say to hold for big window? 20 on blades+ flag?

[left ledge]

Yes

20

If you have the dances ofc

[graceful terrace]

Good that’s what I thought

[left ledge]

If you don’t even have a dance

Farm your dance

Having double dance is worth infinitely more than holding sht stacks

[swift tinsel]

yeah that's prio number 1 is making sure dance/sectech are ready to send when flag is back so you don't delay

[fast meteor]

ye so like if coup and tech are up i would always spend tech first yeah?

[graceful terrace]

Been trying to work on raid CD timing and being more effective

[swift tinsel]

typically

if its flag dances tho you always sectech first in first dance

[fast meteor]

but then i’m at 2 guaranteed unseen blade procs at 0 cp idk what to do in that situation

[left ledge]

Preferably yes, although you could also depending on sht send first coup into sod Sectec into second coup

[left ledge]

Storm

[fast meteor]

outside of blades i’m talking about

[left ledge]

That condition is only blades

[shy beacon]

do we want to send dance as we get it? or do we hold for 2?

[left ledge]

Outside you strike

Unless you have the sht to storm

You don’t have any other option

[fast meteor]

yeah that feels super disgusting to me

[left ledge]

It is but

[fast meteor]

gonna take a bit to get used to that

[left ledge]

It’s just unfortunate

[swift tinsel]

ye thats why youll never see me running without inev

[fast meteor]

yeye i got you

just very used to outlaw

[swift tinsel]

the extra sht outside blades is noticable

at least to me

[left ledge]

You shouldn’t encounter that situation too much if you’re good with sht pooling

Sometimes you can just get unlucky

But other times you can get turbo lucky

I’ve had moments where I got auto refreshed in a normal dance coup-sec-coup

[void needle]

Yall try exhilirating execution over ephemeral bond?

I get a lot of value from it, it feels like

[left ledge]

Well

Depends on your healer

8% can be a lot in some cases

[void needle]

XD I pug a lot

[left ledge]

Like in raid ephemeral will absolutely top execution

[void needle]

sometimes get neglected

[left ledge]

In m+ you can run execution

[shy beacon]

anyone? 😢

[fast meteor]

i think like no ruthlessness as a whole has been a big learning curve for me

[left ledge]

Why

Ruthlessness doesn’t really do much for sub

[winter ice]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[left ledge]

As we get what sorry

[winter ice]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[shy beacon]

shadow dance

[left ledge]

Yeah you asked do we send dance as we get what

[shy beacon]

wondering if we use dances as they come up, or farm 2 for cds

[left ledge]

You play around sod and sectec

[shy beacon]

as we get them I mean

[fast meteor]

not being able to kidney whenever i need to

mostly

[left ledge]

If your cds are coming up in ~30

Start ensuring you have dances for cds

Optimally you’d want to stop spending at 20 sec to flag

[void needle]

you want two for blades, but I think you can usually fit one or two between

[left ledge]

You can fit sometimes 3

It depends on your coup luck

[void needle]

^

[left ledge]

If you double proc a lot you’ll have a good time

But the most important thing to look at is symbols

You want at least one charge and 8 sec to second charge as flag comes up

So try to fit your cds around symbols

[shy beacon]

Ive been just using symbols with shadow dances so far

When should I use them besides that?

[void needle]

You should get one extra with an extra sec tech in your cd's

one with blades/dance, one with dance, and then one by itself after your second dance

[shy beacon]

ait, appreciate the help!! 😄 and pulls without cds, we dont send dances then?

[void needle]

Don't send dance without symbols

[shy beacon]

I dont know if we got the time to spend any to build them back up for cds

[dusk stone]

farm somewhere between 1.6 and 2 dances for cds

[shy beacon]

ye ye, no, assuming we use with symbols

[dusk stone]

1.6 gets you 2 and 2 gets you 3 from the cdr

you have to be more careful if this is in raid

[left ledge]

The hardest part of sub is understanding when you should use cds in a fight

[shy beacon]

mainly playing m+, but Im a nooby yet on rogue, trying to pick up how it works

[left ledge]

Try to look at other logs and kills

Look at how people use their cds and for what

[dusk stone]

read the wowhead every other day or so until the knowledge is in your brain right

[void needle]

add pad is oftentimes the diff between blue and pink parse XD

[warm marlin]

50M on the dawnbreaker church pull with 18 stack prism

[left ledge]

Well sub can’t stop itself from padding

[void needle]

But sometimes you can line up cd's

And pad harder

[left ledge]

Ofc

For raid though

It seems like most cd timings are naturally good for sub

[void needle]

^

[left ledge]

You don’t need to do any cringe stuff

[dusk stone]

ok so

[left ledge]

Dimensius seems to have a small hold at the start

[dusk stone]

boss resets dont reset your flag someone tells me

[left ledge]

Yes

[dusk stone]

but ive literally never ran into that ig

[left ledge]

It doesn’t

[void needle]

Yeah

[dusk stone]

you just make the raid wait?

[left ledge]

Bosses don’t reset abilities under 2 min

Yep

[void needle]

I ran into it on the delve boss kyveza if I wiped on the first couple sets of mechs

I have to wait for flag

XD

[left ledge]

The only abilities that reset under 2 min are abilities that USED to be 2min or above

It’s kinda dumb

I feel like anything a min or over should reset

[void needle]

^

[warm marlin]

everything should just reset

[void needle]

^

[left ledge]

I mean some things maybe not

[warm marlin]

i dont get why theres an arbitrary limit

[left ledge]

Some abilities last like 30-40 sec right

You can use, reset, use again

Have cringe cheese

[warm marlin]

clear them on boss pull

[left ledge]

But they can also manually cap like with symbols above 2 supercharge

It is weird

[warm marlin]

like how outlaw loses adrenaline rush if it casts before pull

and rtb buffs

[left ledge]

Yeah that change is wild btw

I have no idea why that happened

[warm marlin]

its diabolical yes

[void needle]

Yeah, I don't get that

[warm marlin]

but also you could technically ar in stealth, wait 3mins, and get an extra ar on pull for free 7 combo points

and the rtb stuff was mega cheese with potentially waiting until you roll 5

idk just clear stuff on pull and have everything reset

[void needle]

It's stil a bad habit I have from pvp and m+, I pretty much always ar/rtb in stealth before each pull or opener

[dusk stone]

you guys have any tips? joined my first mythic prog guild this week

[warm marlin]

practice burst windows until theyre muscle memory, look at lorrgs and plan cds ahead of time

[void needle]

mythic is a different beast on the last half of bosses, just try not to learn slower than any of your raid mates

Always assume you'll get the random mechs

[clever delta]

damn failing HM two times in row

[void needle]

Be in a position to complete them efficiently

[clever delta]

im gonna cry

[left ledge]

Unless they’re fine with you playing sub on most bosses I’d advise picking assa up for most bosses

[dusk stone]

its a we talk about it later thing i think

[left ledge]

It’s very easy to play

[dusk stone]

but yeah i get that

[left ledge]

Yeah for sub you’re fine if you understand the fundamentals of the spec

Just understand your power is in burst and add clearing

You are NOT a ST spec

[void needle]

Hold cd's on sub if a mechanic that causes downtime is coming up, since you only suffer from downtime if it coincides with cd's

[dusk stone]

its rough to get parses as one of us

so few and competition is rough, i remember last season

[left ledge]

For example on bosses like loomithar and fractillus

Just play sin

Playing sub is actually kind of troll

[void needle]

Pure st, sub is troll

[dusk stone]

easy fatebound W ig

[void needle]

Any add cleave and free win

[left ledge]

Don’t forget though

When you swap back to sub

RELOG

[void needle]

I hate that so much

[left ledge]

Yeah it’s annoying

[void needle]

It's why I troll outside of mythic prog lmao

[dusk stone]

are we good enough on soul hunters?

[void needle]

idgaf if my sub st is worse, it's fine, it's just heroic lmao

[left ledge]

No

Sub is pretty shit on soul hunters

[void needle]

soulhunters doesn't have enough stack time ngl

If all 3 were perpetually in one spot it would be fine

[dusk stone]

maybe sigil is better there

[left ledge]

I mean honestly

Rogue itself is mid on that boss

Like you CAN play sub

You CAN play sin

But either way I don’t think it matters

You’re not going to be important on that fight

[dusk stone]

how are we for boss 3 and 4

[void needle]

I think most of the time sin gets a little bit more value dps wise on that fight

[left ledge]

Forge?

Sub is the best spec in the game for forge

[dusk stone]

i mean forge and soulbinder

[left ledge]

By far

[dusk stone]

soul seems like theres add potential with prism

[tepid trellis]

pretty aite on froge

[left ledge]

For soulbinder sub is good but assa is just as good if not better

[lucid jackal]

soulbinder is a 5 pull boss

It literally doesnt matter what spec u play

[void needle]

^

[left ledge]

All rogue specs are amazing at soulbinder

[vale pine]

nicuuuu

[left ledge]

For forge though absolutely play sub

[vale pine]

just paly sub on all fights

easy

[keen dome]

That's the way

Purple power

[left ledge]

Sub on fractillus

[dusk stone]

gonna try

[left ledge]

[dusk stone]

we see how far it goes

i got top 5 in most of my trial so

[void needle]

It's not that baaad, I just get shit on the rogues that swap to sin for fract

[tepid trellis]

love not being able to apply FW outside of dance on Fractilus

[dusk stone]

but i also grinded gear like a degen

[tepid trellis]

its a 10/10 design

[left ledge]

Amazing design

Thank god they fixed backstab guys

[tepid trellis]

and no, i will not press 45 energy storm

[left ledge]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Just make gloom baseline

Holy fk

[warm marlin]

its glooming time

[void needle]

I outdps'd this sin rogue over 10 ilvls higher on every boss except fract and loom

[tepid trellis]

its assa time*

[left ledge]

[warm marlin]

[dusk stone]

i beat the sin rogue as well lol

[left ledge]

Idk how you guys are beating sin rogues

[warm marlin]

i like how the gloom tech just sims at like a damage loss

[void needle]

I think I actually did beat him on loom, but it had to have been a fluke

[left ledge]

Actually wait lemme fix that

Idk how you guys are seeing another rogue in raid

[void needle]

^

[dusk stone]

my guild is weird

[left ledge]

Out of the 60 chars we had raiding for splits

I was the only rogue

[void needle]

This was a pug lmao

[left ledge]

O

[dusk stone]

a friend got me in and some of our raiders are newer ig

[void needle]

In pugs I sometimes see one other rogue

[vague laurel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dusk stone]

and the 2nd rogue is cracked as well

[void needle]

In prog... never

[dusk stone]

rogue is like the one raid buff that stacks

[void needle]

We're good enough to double stack

[dusk stone]

except on forge where it apparently doesnt

we doing loom tonight praydge for antenna

do i 18 prism stack for burn

[left ledge]

My guild has seen 0 antenna and 0 prisms

[void needle]

That's so rough

[left ledge]

And I think only 1 forge on normal

[dusk stone]

we got 3 forge at frac, i was given the avoidance one

[void needle]

We got lucky and got one week 1, and like 4 vault antenna's

[left ledge]

We got a warbound antenna on an spriest actually

So I guess 1?

[void needle]

We got the cantrip boots in chain two weeks in a row 🙁

[dusk stone]

how much dps increase are the boots

i got in vault and didnt realize

[pastel tapir]

guys, I hate assassination, I want to join you sub gang. is it hard or at least more fun than assassination?

[void needle]

So much more fun

1000x

[dusk stone]

its harder than sin if you are new by a decent chunk

but very fun yes

[tepid trellis]

fun is subjective

[void needle]

^

[vale pine]

XD

[tepid trellis]

and its quite a bit more intricate to play

[void needle]

And buggy

[dusk stone]

are the sub bugs in the room with us right now sir

[void needle]

Perpetually bugged spec

[pastel tapir]

is it a big dam loss if I'm not behind the target?

[void needle]

not really

Like it exists sure

[warm marlin]

like 3-5%

[dusk stone]

i am so mad about my ring

im still on circe

[void needle]

But you aren't bs in cds

[dusk stone]

a dh wouldnt sell me the one from db and then my teammate got one and couldnt trade cause ilvl

[pastel tapir]

oh and my stats are very hasty from assassination, do we go all out on versatility with sub?

[pliant topaz]

weak. i did 9M

[void needle]

Fuck haste

I have 2.5% and I want it gone

[dusk stone]

sin doesnt like haste?

[swift tinsel]

I think I'm down to like 600something

nvm its 815 bc I upgraded chest slot lol

cursed to live this hasted existence

[void needle]

Yeah, my chest and boots are unfortunately second stat haste

[jagged rover]

sin does like haste, more so in deathstalker and bleed build, but sin likes all stats. With some pieces of gear with FB I am still finding gear choices where it wants high mastery and some more haste

[swift tinsel]

got geezle boots atm so I can't complain since we haven't seen leather cloak boots yet

[open vortex]

What is the difference between the two antenna buffs?

[hazy breach]

One gives you stat

One says the orb is traveling towards you

[mighty zephyr]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[open vortex]

Ah okay, I see it now when I look in the full report

[void needle]

Does it pick up the orbs faster if you run into them, or slower if you run away? is that a min max with antenna?

[swift tinsel]

yep

[open vortex]

am i reading this correctly in that the sim is assuming that you are missing 60% of the orbs?

[vale pine]

you could min/max

[swift tinsel]

if you decrese the distance between you and the orb, you get it faster

if you increase the distance between you and the orb, you get it slower, or not at all

would not recommend scenario #2

unless you wanna Witherbark Branch it

[keen trellis]

Hello, when do we use Netherprism and Ritual Forge? Ritual with every odd CD set, so 1st, 3rd etc, and Netherprism basically on CD (and not before major CDs when Ritual Forge is up)?
Edit: Oh I am dumb, thought Ritual was also BiS, I am tripping

[radiant raptor]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[void needle]

This is p much how you use it in M+

but double on use is not heavily used in raid rn

[cursive bear]

is there any specific timer to use the prism or number of stack etc ?

[solemn sonnet]

you can just use every 1:30

might be worth to stack further if there's a big amp

[karmic harbor]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[void needle]

Yeah, skip first cd's. But then every blades after p much, unless you want to stack for adds or damage amp

[cursive bear]

so no use on pull, we stack and use every 1;30 right ?

[void needle]

If you have leftover stacks from trash, you can use on first pull. And if the fight will end before you get another set of cds, you can just send it with a dance

[cursive bear]

ok ok I see, I just drop it in heroic, it's a +100k dps updrage ! :p

thanks broo

[void needle]

I'm lying I think

I think stacks reset on boss pull

in m+ you can carry stacks to the next fight

[cursive bear]

well, I will try to check that

[gloomy slate]

whats the thought behind this?

@vale pine

[pliant topaz]

so u dont waste a stack of unseen blade between coup casts

[loud brook]

is harvester's edict sim assume we always get the orb?

[void needle]

Shuriken storm doesn't spend your ub

But generates combo points for your second coup

[keen dome]

I love this trinket

[vale pine]

!coup #2 and explenation

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[late ermine]

anyone have a good wa to track coup de grace?

[void needle]

If you get a cp reset on the first coup, you can also slam the second coup without a shuriken btw, it's just to build more cp for the second cast

[late ermine]

sounds like you woudl need it for tracking tier set

[limpid sage]

how do people send cds on 1st boss? I see top logs just send on cd, but how do they even make that work?

[void needle]

?

[dusk stone]

1st boss of raid?

[void needle]

Why wouldn't that work?

[keen dome]

I just send cooldowns on pull and whenever they're up. Pew pew

[limpid sage]

because it does the thing where it teleports

[dusk stone]

thats good for us

[fierce lintel]

Hey so I notice in M+ I sometimes get sec tec off CD at the end of a first dance shadow dance

[limpid sage]

how

[dusk stone]

forced downtime is good for sub because cds cd

[fierce lintel]

Is pressing it a second time in that dance a thing

Not in cds

[dusk stone]

if you can supercharge it yes

always supercharge sectec

[void needle]

You send 3 times in the opener usually

[gloomy slate]

https://tenor.com/view/the-universe-tim-and-eric-mind-blown-mind-blown-meme-mind-explosion-mind-explosion-meme-gif-18002878

[void needle]

With all 3 charges of symbols

[gloomy slate]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-star-spongebob-squarepants-wow-mindblown-gif-13169052

[fierce lintel]

Hmmm

What about the conditions for sending sec tec raw

There seems to be very specific conditions that can happen

[swift tinsel]

you send it without dance/sod

[fierce lintel]

And you aren't affected

[swift tinsel]

if its up in time to reduce its cd before flag comes back up

[void needle]

I just thought that wowhead line you put in chat didn't make it clear. It kind of just says use storm between every coup cast

[swift tinsel]

or, will be up in time when you spend cp on rupture after flag

[fierce lintel]

Which is like 7-21 seconds of CDR depending

Is there a max rupture in flag

[fierce lintel]

I'm assuming 3

[limpid sage]

how does this guy send cds right as boss teleports

[fierce lintel]

Before going into cds

[limpid sage]

and still come out #1

surely he must be doing some weird tech

[fierce lintel]

Also using cursed stone idol thing recently and thats a second channel

[void needle]

I shadowstep my dk usually

[limpid sage]

you get knocked back instantly again though

it's a consistent knockback

and he just teleports 40 yds away

[void needle]

You get two charges, and I have to use both

If you time it right you don't end up anywhere

[swift tinsel]

he didn't

[limpid sage]

huh

[void needle]

It does look like it's after

[swift tinsel]

protocol purge is at 1:06

So its impossible to cd right as he teleports

[limpid sage]

ohhhh I completely misread it

fml

[swift tinsel]

you always get them back during shield

well, first shield

[limpid sage]

I sent cds as the purge at 3:12 came up becuase I thought I could do some tech xd

ye have to delay 3 min one

how tf do you hit 5.1 mil with 20 sec forced downtime though

must've hit the jackpot

[void needle]

forced downtime is fine on sub

It's where we benefit over other classes realistically

He got his cd's in every minute and a half. Which is really what matters. Our downtime damage loss is negligible compared to other specs

[limpid sage]

doesn't make it any less crazy to pull 5.1 mil with 20 sec forced downtime

when you consider this is r1 on loomithar which has dmg amp for half of its hp

[hollow spear]

forced downtime is less egregious with the new tier set since it gives us more leeway

[void needle]

I did over 4m without 4 set or trinkets at 480 ilvl on that boss. It doesn't seem outrageous. Also the damage amp may be a little under half the boss health, but it is far from half the fight time, he only gets one more cd set during the amp. Edit Sorry 680 ilvl, and a little *over half the boss health

[steel horizon]

If we enter dance with coup ready, is it better to send the double coup before sectec for big flawless form stacks? Or do we still sectec first then 2x coup after at the risk of losing some unseen blade procs?

[warm marlin]

its not that bad on heroic. i did highroll opener (#subtlety message) but i only beat my sim for a 3:45 fight by 100k or so

[kind bluff]

Where is the downtime in that fight?

[limpid sage]

Ye and that’s without accounting for ~20s downtime dmg loss

[limpid sage]

When it teleports

And knocks you back

[kind bluff]

Did I just zone out for that part of the fight? I didnt have downtime on that fight that I remember lol

It was patchwork with a damage amp

[swift tinsel]

First boss not loom

[kind bluff]

Ahhhhhhhhh ty

Sorry I was like wtf

[frail dawn]

Question from a Sub noob, is there a point where I want to just start pooling for the next Flagellation window? Like if there's X seconds of CD left on Flag, I just sit on my 'mini' CDs?

[runic sluice]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[void needle]

Yeah, we were comparing the damage loss from downtime on the first fight vs. second boss with no downtime and a damage amp at 55% hp

[dusk stone]

man ontop of like 10 hr day echo is still sending it

[limpid sage]

Did you do the sectec cheese prepull?

[winter ice]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[warm marlin]

always

there are some little bugs flying on the side before plexus and a critter walking around near the teleporter thing

[void needle]

about 2 SoD and dances per flag/blades. Current CDR means you might be able to get away with less, but you want 2 charges available to use during cd without downtime

[frail dawn]

Aiiight, thank you Just gotta ingrain that and get used to the flow of the class a little more

[void needle]

Also at about 10 seconds remaining on flag cd, stop spending cp and just use builders to stack shadow techniques for cd's

[frail dawn]

That's about what I was doing tonight, starting to pool and stack stuff up around the 10-20 sec CD remaining, depending on how things were looking

[void needle]

Yeah, you definitely don't want to cap on charges unless you are close to cds. Pretty much never cap on symbols

I wouldn't dance again if you are less than about 40 seconds left on flag cd

But like I said tierset cdr adds an aspect of rng to it, and you likely can get away with a little less time

[frail dawn]

Yeah, that's what I been noticing, too. Just trying to get an idea for it and figure the flow out

It's not like I'm donig bad DPS, just want my rotation to flow better into my Flag windows

[void needle]

That's the game 🙂

[frail dawn]

And maximise the burst window, ofc

[frozen elm]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[frail dawn]

Thanks for the insight, though

[void needle]

Any time my friend!

[dusk stone]

it depends, sub has a lot of choices. If you wait until 2 full dance you get a 3rd from cdr, if you wait about 1.6 or so you get two in keys. For raid its a bit different and i keep the general rule to save dances at 35 seconds of flag.

The thing is though this means you can move your damage around and that's part of why sub can be a valuable spec, its damage is somewhat modal. that goes a lot farther this season with prism allowing us to have a significant increase, or delay that and become a nuke.

I think FG might a good place to save an 18 stack of netherprism because its the only key with a dmg amp.

For raid you have soulbinder and forge and saladbar + dimensius platforms

[void needle]

Yes! You can move your damage around. The only time you are losing damage is when you let charges or energy overcap.

[fossil forge]

how do yall use the netherprism trinket ? is it worth matching with cds or sending sometimes without cds

[frail dawn]

Yeah, been trying my best to make sure I got the full burst windows up for the damage amps on the different bosses

Still gotta get my Netherprism, but from what I gathered you stack it up and send it with flag windows?

[dusk stone]

9 stack or 18 stack, which is 1:30 and 3:00 minute for prism

generally at least

[loud brook]

assassination seems good/decent in almost every fight while outlaw/sublety good in some fight?

[dusk stone]

its bad to send it outside of cds

[fossil forge]

so i just match it with cds

like a normal trinket

and 0 care about stacks

[dusk stone]

no thats just the simple explaination

[void needle]

If the boss will die before cds are up, send it with a dance

[dusk stone]

the complicated one is you need to send the prism where and when either a 9 or 18 is most valuable

[void needle]

Never leave any gas in the tank at the end of a fight

[hollow spear]

Before I finally send my craft: there's no inherent advantage between crafting a mythic ring or neck, is there?

[void needle]

Use all symbols/dance charges if you can

[dusk stone]

ngl i did a dawnbreaker where i sent flag with 0.75 of a dance charge on last boss

[little scaffold]

do i do this even if i get full combo point refund from the first coup?

[fossil forge]

just got the nether prism + antenna combo and the dmg is insane with the 4set

[dusk stone]

no

[void needle]

No, only if you need combo points for the second

[frail dawn]

You have no idea how jealous I am

[fossil forge]

haha

[dusk stone]

i got myth pacemaker so i am sitting ok

[frail dawn]

Sitting on Lily of the vale, warpclaw and 3-piece

[fossil forge]

sadge

[dusk stone]

lilly is good

[frail dawn]

Lily is really nice, yeah

[void needle]

I feel that, need one more for 4piece. But its just so good

[dusk stone]

sigil is also a pretty good trinket, i simmed all 3 of the on use and sigil is completely fine

it might be better than it sims for saladman?

[hollow spear]

the uptime in m+ is lower than I expected

[void needle]

prism/sigil is generally less than 1% worse than prism antenna in st

In m+ it falls off a little more

[dusk stone]

is that true though with antenna sims only accounting for X amount of orbs

its like 60? 40?

[steel horizon]

Is antenna more or less aids than the everbloom trinket from DF season 3?

[hazy breach]

Way less

[steel horizon]

Thank God

[void needle]

Default sim has the orb miss chance set at 0% but you can adjust it

[alpine wraith]

just got 4p

damn shit goes nuclear

[brisk raptor]

How many shadow dances can you use between 90 sec CD safely?

[hazy breach]

Never more than 2

But usually 2, sometimes only 1

on ST that is

[dusk stone]

this post from earlier was talking about high orb miss chance

[brisk raptor]

And can someone help me to understand unseen blade and why we shuriken storm between the coupe de grace?

[hazy breach]

You cannot build coup stacks during the 4p

[void needle]

Only to build combo points without wasting ub

[brisk raptor]

Unseen blade gets consumed by finishers I guess? I didn’t notice that piece in the tooltip so maybe that’s why I’m confused

[steel horizon]

What if we're outside of blades and we enter dance with coup up? Do we send 2x coup then sectec? Or still sectec first?

[steel horizon]

No it gets consumed by backstab and SS

[dusk stone]

you send sectec and then coup afaik

[open vortex]

oh going back to this i figured out how to read the sim and compared some logs in late heroic and early mythic. seems like a normal miss chance is like 20% of the orbs or around there depending melee/ranged and the fight

probably missing orbs in later mythic fights will happen more often so value degrades from there

[dusk stone]

yeah that

[open vortex]

for my own sim, missing 20% of orbs makes it equal to a myth sigil

[steel horizon]

Only issue with that is if you sectec first then you start SS'ing to build cp for coup then you waste unseen blade

[open vortex]

but for my sin sim its still far above and beyond my bis

[dusk stone]

how is UB being wasted?

we use storm to not waste ub stacks

[steel horizon]

Thats only when blades is ip

Up

[void needle]

You can't build more ub while in the 4p window

[steel horizon]

Im talking about if you enter dance with coup ready and you're outside of blades

[dusk stone]

ahhhh i understand

[haughty mural]

Sigil feels underwhelming

Might be bad luck

[dusk stone]

yeah coup then sectec outside of flag then yeah

[haughty mural]

But it seems it might do less than my postmaster trinket on the same ilvl

Much less

[void needle]

UB and coup are the same spell id, If you track ub you'll see that it changes icon to coup when at 5 stacks and can't stack higher than 5

[steel horizon]

Yeah. If you do the 2x coup first then you get big flawless form stacks for the sectec but then the sectec itself might not be supercharged cus you already sent 2 finishers.

[void needle]

^

[steel horizon]

But if you sectec first then youre probably gonna waste unseen blade procs

So im not sure which is more optimal

[dusk stone]

hope you have fazed then i guess

one reason we use sectec like that is it gives fazed

[steel horizon]

Unseen blade gives fazed

And Sectec gives 2 free unseen blade procs

[void needle]

Sec tech guarantees fazed

[kind bluff]

So me going dance, coup, symbols, coup, sectech is wrong?

[void needle]

and also guarantees ub on your next two ss/bs. Which is why it's a waste to cast between coups

[dusk stone]

also sectec doesn't give two UB stacks, it refreshes the chance to do it

[void needle]

It's not a chance

[steel horizon]

Thats what i meant

[dusk stone]

poor grammar on my end, it removes the CD from ub temporarily

[steel horizon]

I think this is the play. You dont waste any unseen blade procs like this

[dusk stone]

is there something triggering UB that im not seeing

its just backstab and strike

[void needle]

Only if the target is already fazed

[kind bluff]

You storm in between then get the free Ub after the sectec

[late ermine]

do you single target burst with 7=> targets? i saw on the icy veins guide to use st burst on up to 7 targets but on the wowhead guide says to use black powder on 4 + targets

[void needle]

bp just got buffed, it's the 4 targets now

[kind bluff]

Is there a wa that tracks if fazed is up?

[dusk stone]

its 4 targets with BP

but evis isnt bad either

[late ermine]

seems crazy i hit the cleave dummy and i do like 5 mil more dps not using black powder

[dusk stone]

if you want to do prio damage on a mob thats always good

[late ermine]

on 5 targets

just using coup de grace and black powder vs eviscerating during dance

[dusk stone]

is find weakness applied to the dummies

[void needle]

It's bp on 3 if they are all find weakness

[mighty citrus]

so for forgeguy i need to go sub again. did anything change rotationwise in comp to last season? i saw that you ss between two coups, but beside is there anything else?

[dusk stone]

trinket

[void needle]

lmao Do NOT ss between coups

At least during blades

[mighty citrus]

shuriken

[dusk stone]

if you have prism holding stacks is a consideration

[mighty citrus]

storm

my bad

i used ss wrong

[void needle]

Yes

[steel horizon]

Yes just backstab and SS. But if you enter dance and you have coup ready but you decide to sectec first, then you're next SS (unseen blade) is wasted

[dusk stone]

why do we care about targets being fazed before coup?

[steel horizon]

And ffom what ive seeen we dont use storm outside of blades

[void needle]

5 stacks flawless form

[steel horizon]

More flawless forms stacks

[dusk stone]

that would be why you sectec regardless of coup yeah

[void needle]

Yes

[quaint karma]

Yo, im currently using ritual forge and netherprism on my rogue, does anyone have a working macro that would alternate the trinkets with shadowblades?

[dusk stone]

cast sequence maybe so it uses forge first which will set prism on cd maybe?

[void needle]

At least for a working rotation, sectech, coup is easier. Technically if you proc ub before blades, you don't have to sectech first

[dusk stone]

tracking fazed is a lot harder than fw for me personally

ive looked for it and its hit or miss

[steel horizon]

Just use plater and track it on the nameplate

[crisp karma]

!weakauras

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

btw is there any fix for this garbage game freezing and reloading crap its been doing recently?

[kind bluff]

Plater does show it but ide rather something more centralized just to show when its on my current target

[dusk stone]

its happened since i updated elvui

[void needle]

It's 10 seconds anytime you gain ub or use sectech

[steel horizon]

Yea lkke fazed is almost constantly up anyway

[void needle]

During cd's at least when it matters

[random comet]

I don’t use elvui and it’s been happening to me too recently

[plush trout]

I have a question... I rlly enjoy sub but I just can't top the dps in raids eventhough I'm doing all that wowhead said tracking fazed, lining up all cds, all coup de grace etc

[zealous hedge]

happened to me for weeks the only fix i got was switching to directx11 apparently 12 fucked rn and i tried everything

[void needle]

If you are using coup outside of cd's, the bs that procced it will also proc fazed, so it's not as important to track

[steel horizon]

Exactly

[plush trout]

Is it the spec or I'm just baf

[void needle]

I don't track fazed, only ub

[void needle]

spec is very good rn, but it is very complex

[plush trout]

I just fall behind with the dmg after like 3 mins

Or 4

[zealous hedge]

we are a burst heavy spec

[plush trout]

No problem in m+ tho, only in raid

[void needle]

If you fall behind at 3 mins when you get another set of cd's, you might not be saving enough charges of dance and SoD for your full cd window

[dusk stone]

we are somewhat behind in raid sometimes but who knows

depends primarily if the spec is being used right

[brisk raptor]

What is the major advantage of of saving cold blood for second ST in cooldowns?

[void needle]

Generally you spike on the opener, 1:30, 3:00 etc. But single target fights sub likely won't win ever

[steel horizon]

You have higher stacks of flawless form by the time you reach the 2nd sectec

[orchid sand]

is there a bug with deeper stratagem aswell? Swapped talents and jsut was stuck on 5cp for a fight

[void needle]

Slightly more damage because of flawless/danse macabre stacks

I guess not so much danse stacks, still only two in the optimal rotation

[dusk stone]

/macro

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[clever delta]

wish i can have cloiaks so i dont need to regem all the time

[void needle]

Like a duplicate reshii wrap?

[clever delta]

ye

[void needle]

It doesn't destroy your gems when you remove them

[clever delta]

ye but i need to think abou ti

[void needle]

The same as you would need to think to equip another cloak? idk I'm not too bothered by it

The circes circlet was nice to have a dupe of because of all the gems. But one gem for the main stat of whatever spec you're swapping to isn't too bad

[wooden kernel]

what do we macro lily with?

[steel horizon]

Blades

[void needle]

blades

[wooden kernel]

ty

[hollow spear]

How did prism + forge compare to prism + passive if you use the adapted apl?

[hazy breach]

Slightly behind passive

But pretty much the same

[void needle]

Pretty much the same

[hazy breach]

On a standard 5 min sim

[void needle]

At least with antenna as the passive

[hazy breach]

The longer you go the worse double is

[void needle]

sigil, crystal, warpclaw all fall behind

[hazy breach]

Since a lot of the value is having a trinket on pull

[hollow spear]

And I guess the inverse is also true?

[hazy breach]

Kind of

[mighty citrus]

eleem are you sub in raid or you went sin?

[void needle]

Down to a little over 3 minutes I suppose

[hazy breach]

But if its really short then forge+antenna is better

[hazy breach]

HC was mostly sub but myth is a bit of both

[void needle]

It would peak where you get forge and an antenna usage, worse if the fight is so short you only get one on-use use.

[hollow spear]

2:30 fights would be great for forge ig

[mighty citrus]

i just wonder if sub just sims much worse st, i have decent gear but sin is ahead by far

i try to get my shit together for the forgeguy mythic

[hollow spear]

Since you can only get two blade windows in anyway

[void needle]

This is true

[warm marlin]

my sin gearset is 500k ahead of my sub

[mighty citrus]

and apparently sub is the pic there

[warm marlin]

but st sim isnt everything

[mighty citrus]

okay then it is normal

[mighty citrus]

i see that, just want to prep gear a bit and then go into bossvideos etc

[hollow spear]

First and Loom are probably a sin angle

[mighty citrus]

still need to figgure out "new" rotation

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[void needle]

It is in a purely st fight.

[warm marlin]

in a patchwerk 5min fight 🙂

[void needle]

Sin gets cdr down to 1:30 cd windows when it's not bugged right now yes?

In terms of spec to fight timer comparisons it's the most even right now than ever

[hollow spear]

Would be interesting to see a patchwerk sim that forces the 5min, since fractillus is pretty much exactly that

[warm marlin]

i mean fractilius is pretty much patchwerk so it is accurate there

[hollow spear]

Afaik 5 min patchwerk is an average of everything between 4 and 6 min durations

[void needle]

In most single target sim timers sin will outperform sub

[young roost]

!fuu

[alpine wraith]

yo new 4 set and prism

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

are so good

i did 10m st on a boss

[void needle]

For how long?

[alpine wraith]

like 1 min or

[void needle]

lmao that makes sense, so not a raid boss 4 minutes or longer.

We balance out dps number wise around our 2-3 set of cooldowns

[south kernel]

wait i thought prism + forge was infinitely stronger

am i tripping

atleast in m+

[shadow lance]

For me, Prism + Antenna is 0.6% higher than Prism + forge

For 5min ST patchwerk

[plush trout]

How huge is the dps increase for sub from 2p to 4p?

[alpine wraith]

quite huge

[brisk raptor]

Last season playing sub wasn’t there a thing that made symbols last longer than dance? Is it just the first dance talent that’s making them not the same length?

[void needle]

about 20%

[dusk stone]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[alpine wraith]

last floodgate i did after 4p

[jagged hamlet]

what build you playing?

[plush trout]

9mil almost

Crazy

[alpine wraith]

and im using pvp trink instead of forge

[plush trout]

Is prism or lily better?

[shadow lance]

Sim, for me Prism sim higher

[boreal bone]

interested as well

[alpine wraith]

prism is super better than lilly

[shadow lance]

Wich level?

[plush trout]

Do u line up the second coup de grace with the extra cp from sod

[alpine wraith]

depends not really

[dusk stone]

how do i macro potion?

[alpine wraith]

you want to supercharge sec tech always

sometimes the second coup is there but not often

[shadow lance]

Were you cheating with the affix mastery bonus ? 😛

[alpine wraith]

i still dont do 12s

im spamming 11 and 10 to get upgrades

[shadow lance]

You do weell

[alpine wraith]

still have to get wep helmet and pants

[shadow lance]

I say that cuz I did a nearly 10M thanks to affix on PSF

[alpine wraith]

damn big

[shadow lance]

Yeah, I'm just out of Flood there, 8.9M

[void needle]

"/use tempered potion"

[plush trout]

The closest that I've done was 5mil

[fallow nimbus]

2 weeks without prism

[plush trout]

But not sure if it is a skill issue

[shadow lance]

U got 4p?

[plush trout]

Nope

Barely 2p

[shadow lance]

That's why

I was 5-6M without 4p

[alpine wraith]

same

4 set and prism just go nuclear

[shadow lance]

My dps went up to 7-9 M with

Exactly

[plush trout]

And how do I use prism

I stack

[shadow lance]

On Blades

[alpine wraith]

depends

[plush trout]

And unleash on blades

[alpine wraith]

i use double trink so sometimes i hold for 3 min power

or use it on 1:30 if pull will be long so i use both trinks

and boss will be around 3 mins away

[dusk stone]

yeah

4pc and prism is ridiculous damage increase

like half your dps is locked behind it almost

[plush trout]

Oh

[shadow lance]

I don't think it's a gain

[plush trout]

Cause I just got a prism

And wasn't sure if I should switch it

With lily

[dusk stone]

i was working on an 11m hoa until team decided to sandbag

[hidden jasper]

I've tried this build but the CB variant feels a lot nicer than tea, especially on the higher keys where prio is necessary

[shadow lance]

Kekw

[alpine wraith]

using both trinks is fine because it is pvp trink

it is back before next 1:30

[shadow lance]

Oh right good

[dusk stone]

the really hilarious thing in comms tho

[alpine wraith]

if pull is long i double dance then dance tornado dance

[dusk stone]

tell your shaman that this is what a real ascendance looks like

[shadow lance]

Play assa if you want prio xD

[dusk stone]

when you drop 18 prism

[hidden jasper]

...

[shadow lance]

Sub lost the funnel title

[dusk stone]

18 stack funnel ds would be funny though

[shadow lance]

And the SecTech Crit every 1:30 won't put your prio very high

[dusk stone]

there isnt crit overflow in wow right

[sage juniper]

Im having a hard time getting over 3,1 mill dps on single target even with 4p… can’t figure out what im doing wrong…

[dusk stone]

auto crit is just wasted every time you get a natural one

[bleak night]

if you get 101% crit you win the game

also idk

[plush trout]

In st do u play with tt or cb ?

[bleak night]

maybe

maybe not

[shadow lance]

CB cuz tea had low value in st

[alpine wraith]

mastery is not strong of a stat because of how much we have already

to make it simple if you have the base 20% mastery or so

using tea is doubling your mastery

but if you already have 100% and maybe flag up another 70%

it is not as impactful

[hidden jasper]

Sure, but doesn't change the fact that in some pulls being a black powder merchant isn't worth it

[dusk stone]

agi isn't strong stat because prism kekw

[alpine wraith]

actually yes

why we use stat enchants now

and stat gems are better than main stat by a bit

[dusk stone]

what key level are you talking about this being for

[alpine wraith]

on lowtimes you rupture

not bp

it is way more dcp

if pulls lasts like 10 secs or so longer

then you enter dance soon anyway with how much cdr we have

[plush trout]

In aoe do u spam bp or evis during cd?

If there are more than 8 I guess u go bp

[hidden jasper]

14s atm

[alpine wraith]

depends on target count if more than 4 use bp but spend coups/sec tech

[hazy breach]

4 or more bp

[dusk stone]

you bp at 3 targets or more with find weakness

[sage juniper]

Do we use naked sec tec on ST fights? Would be a lot of uses wasted if we only use it together with dance / symbols?

[plush trout]

And I build with shadow strike or shuriken storm

[dusk stone]

dont forget to read the wowhead article guys, it covers all of this

strike while in CD's, storm if 2 or more target outside of cd

and w/e other conditions

[shadow lance]

Depends comp but I agree

[coarse agate]

I feel like this needs to be a new bot response

[shadow lance]

If I need funnel, I play assa still

[coarse agate]

You say this a Lot friend Eleem

[dusk stone]

i was gonna say sub is weird for m+ comps because we are both aoe and prio depending

[shadow lance]

Wdym?

[shadow lance]

Minor gain

[dusk stone]

bp is strong this tier right, i dont think evis is bad at all

you can just evis on 7 targets and become worse arcane

[hidden jasper]

It's a lot more flexible this tier

Between bp and evis

[spice matrix]

!bp

[dusk stone]

also most people are running tea because as guy put it "for people who don't want to claw their eyes out outside of cd's"

[void needle]

^

[shadow lance]

If I got a pull with 1 prio and 3 other targets, there's not specs that do prio targeting well, I'll prolly spam Evis, yes

[void needle]

I like that answer

[sand flax]

hey @vale pine I know it has already been asked, but is there a solution to the sectec + coldblood macro that doesnt work ? (another solution that relog)

[void needle]

Only fix so far

[hidden jasper]

I found this interesting because for me I found the opposite to be true

Not saying guy is wrong

Just was curious if anyone else felt the same

[shadow lance]

Wdym?

[dusk stone]

i fnd myself wanting to play cb sometimes because big sectec feel good

[shadow lance]

Tea force us to focus on what we outside cds?

[dusk stone]

but i also remember how sad sectec was in rookery last tier

[lucid jackal]

i didnt say this tf

[dusk stone]

was it not you?

[void needle]

In m+ I like tt because it smooths everything out, if it truly were only about my blades windows sectech is better, but in dungeons it feels embarassing doing healer damage in downtime

[hidden jasper]

Tea build doesn't feel as nice to play as CB

[lucid jackal]

Tea tornado build is cope and ugly

[alpine wraith]

tbh it is more vigor than tea that helps quite a bit

to keep things steady

but cb and VT do well too

[shadow lance]

I need to pay attention of not spamming too much outside of cd's

[hidden jasper]

Actual factual information

[shadow lance]

It annoys me

[raw wadi]

how long does it take to load netherprism?

[alpine wraith]

i like it a lot lets me supercharge a dance

by using sec tech then tornado

[shadow lance]

1 stack / 10 sec

[void needle]

^

[alpine wraith]

then going into dance with 2 unseens

first dance quad coup

goes hard

[hidden jasper]

You can still do alright damage outside of blades

Depends

[tepid trellis]

people that play nado needs to see a therapist ong

Tea Replicating tho, thats the real shit

[alpine wraith]

therapists are scared of us

[void needle]

The tt/tornado is better ong

[dusk stone]

i dont think were doing healer damage so much in keys now though with prism

[alpine wraith]

also i need to restrain myself to not buy the 9k mastery ring

[shadow lance]

I always found tornado weird

[dusk stone]

was gonna also say tea helping to setup rs is nice

[void needle]

stronger non blades ramps better

[spiral marsh]

Is there a way to turn off thistle tea's 30 energy auto-use?

[dusk stone]

nope

[void needle]

I wish

[shadow lance]

Nope

[spiral marsh]

bruh

[void needle]

That's the worst part about using it

[shadow lance]

Just putting a toggle

[raw wadi]

this means if i have a fight where i want to use first cds at 00:30 seconds in. And my last flag will be around 03:30.
I should send it 00:30 and 03:30?

[spiral marsh]

so i should try to be mindful about going below 30, and only really use it for shadow dance

[void needle]

I'm so bad at that, I want tt for my dances, but I get bored and mash bs/sstorm in downtime

[spiral marsh]

honestly same, feel that :/

[tepid trellis]

just spam away

[shadow lance]

It's neutral to use at 9 stack every 1:30 or 18 at 3:00

[tepid trellis]

shit doesent matter

[hidden jasper]

You looking at soul binder logs?

[dusk stone]

9 or 18 is dealers choice

[raw wadi]

not if the boss have a dmg amp

[shadow lance]

So keep for damage amp boss

[void needle]

Who let blizz decide it needed to be auto use? Why didn't we throw a fit and shut down our discord over it? 🤣

[shadow lance]

So yes, you can use at 30 and fully stacked at 3:30

[raw wadi]

amazing... ty!

[shadow lance]

I planend to do that on king today

And forgot

So i press 9 stacks on adds and 9 stacks on drk

Woops