subtlety

[warm marlin]

idk probably more the thing where they just dont have another sub player on roster

[dusk stone]

man there really arent many of us

[hazy breach]

Curious as to who they thought got more value from autumn than the rogue

Maybe there is some cracked healing cd they need which requires autumn or something, i have no idea

[alpine wraith]

you can triple dance it kinda using a dance before if you capped dances almost you can get enough cdr

did it on hc but idk about M

but it ends up being worse of course because 1 unbuffed dance 2 flag dances

vs 3 flag dances

[dusk stone]

didnt think of that, if your going to 18 stack prism send 3 dances into it

[warm marlin]

you do also int your flag window a bit presumably by consuming coup/whatever sht you had ready

idk does holding dps on the titan adds delay the phase at all?

[crystal bone]

so would u send 0 stacks on the add platform on nexus king, then 18 on the damage amp?

or would u send 9+9

[tight sparrow]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[bleak night]

Probably will just depend on how hard adds are when you get there

If you can greed for amp

[crystal bone]

right, i wasnt really referring to prog xD

just for parse purposes

[warm marlin]

you would send 18 stacks on the adds

[hazy breach]

Prob 18 on adds and 9 on amp

[warm marlin]

and be very icky

[bleak night]

Adds always parse fodder

[hazy breach]

Or well, forge on amp ig

[bleak night]

[crystal bone]

gotcha

[hazy breach]

But idk

[crystal bone]

i need to take it off my macro, ive just been sending 9's in keys

or whatever stacks i have when its time for flag

[hazy breach]

The 18 stackers go crazy in keys for big pulls

[tight sparrow]

if you use everything on cd your 2nd cb lines up with 2nd sectech max flawless stacks just sayin

[warm marlin]

cant fit in raw sectec if you hold dance for coldblood

[crystal bone]

yea ive noticed, i hit almost 40m on the pull after 1st boss priory

[dusk stone]

the nice thing about prism is that you can choose how you apply it

[short radish]

2xnormal and heroic with 30 raiders.

One ritual forge has dropped

fuck trinkets

delete trinkets

no antenna

[crystal bone]

such a neat trinket for us

[short radish]

no netherprism

[crystal bone]

almost like it was designed for us xD

[dusk stone]

we got 3 prisms last night

[short radish]

give us one

[bleak night]

We've gotten 2 antennas across both difficulties in two weeks

[hollow spear]

Method 2 rogueing

[tight sparrow]

wdym

[short radish]

method is now my new favourite guild

[hollow spear]

true

[short radish]

zaelia was misunderstood

[hollow spear]

subscribed

wait

[short radish]

wait.

[hollow spear]

to your first statement

not the second

[bleak night]

[warm marlin]

its hard to fit in the raw sectec (which has a lot more value with new tier from the 2p unseen blades) while still having everything ready for your cold blood dance

you can send the cold blood on some random nothing ability ig but you can still int your flag window by going too early if you omega proc

[hollow spear]

we are so not going to get buffed

[dusk stone]

the robot says that seaforium is better than sigil

[hazy breach]

The main problem is that every second you delay cb is a second you need to delay flag

[dusk stone]

is that true

[hazy breach]

And even if you dont delay it like ryldd said you can get an extra proc and have cb ready earlier than the previous one

[tight sparrow]

Yes than u never delay

[hazy breach]

So you just kinda have to delay flag a bit if you want to fit the cb inbetween

[alpine wraith]

how to win tier

be the only one

[warm marlin]

even if you never delay you need to hold flag for a second or two to account for proc rng

[lilac stag]

WTB augvokers

[tight sparrow]

ahh

wait wait

[crystal bone]

[warm marlin]

last tier it was 11 seconds on cold blood when you pressed flag, with new 4p maybe 10

[tight sparrow]

if u get proc your cb cd comes faster ?

[hazy breach]

No

[alpine wraith]

no

[warm marlin]

your 2nd sectec

[alpine wraith]

he means the second sec tech

can come earlier now so the 14 secs on cb when entering dance can be

actually let me change it to like 12 or 10

[short radish]

/cancelaura Prescience
/cancelaura Ebon Might

[warm marlin]

its probably 10 with new 4p

i stopped doing the cold blood stuff because its bad now

[tight sparrow]

so. Never send cb outside of blade window ?

[lilac stag]

Which “stuff”?

[alpine wraith]

you can slam it but need to know what you are doing like rylld said

[warm marlin]

dance with cold blood sectec between blades

[alpine wraith]

you can use literally as it comes off cd

[warm marlin]

was fine last tier is bad now

[alpine wraith]

and not have it when needed

[lilac stag]

ah. Yeah I didn’t mess with it.

[tight sparrow]

I dunn if it was luck but got like 100 logs on hc by sending everything on cd :))

[hollow spear]

Depends on what you define as "everything on cd"

[tight sparrow]

Last time i checked i had extra 3x cb usage

[dry harness]

do u guyz wait for 2 shadowdance before using blades/flag (after open)first cd it comes back

[alpine wraith]

changed

[tight sparrow]

than other subylety

[dusk stone]

its 2 or 3

if you wait for the full 2nd charge you get a third from the cdr

[hazy breach]

Yesnt, you need to be able to cast 2, you dont need to have 2

1 charge and 30 seconds left on the second charge is a good benchmark to aim for

[tight sparrow]

people still playing cb in keys

[lilac stag]

yep

[tight sparrow]

tea is much better

[hollow spear]

Nah

[lilac stag]

debatable

[hazy breach]

Much better is exaggerating, but yes tea is nice

[shadow lance]

Depends

[tight sparrow]

for high keys tea is better

[hollow spear]

"much" is definitely not the word I'd use

we're talking like 1%

[shadow lance]

Define high?

[tight sparrow]

yoy can freely use feint

in dance window

[lilac stag]

tea makes people not want to slash their eyes out in non-cds

[dusk stone]

that yeah

[lilac stag]

but “much” is a stretch

[dusk stone]

its really big qol

[tight sparrow]

17’s 18s rn with tea is good

[alpine wraith]

having extra energy as you come in a pull is surprisingly useful

also imagine playing tornado without vigor

[tight sparrow]

is tfd bug still exist ?

[alpine wraith]

bleerg

[dusk stone]

tfd feels a lot better than it did last patch

i press stealth in non boss fight i get tfd

[tight sparrow]

Coz if dungeom design

[hazy breach]

No, it starts counting once you leave combat now though

[lilac stag]

people will generally gravitate to what they feel better playing. most people I’m assuming enjoy not having zero energy even though it’s out of our CDs

[tight sparrow]

lot of downtime between pulls

[hazy breach]

Instead of sometimes waiting a couple of seconds before starting the timer

[tight sparrow]

o just vanish

2-4 sec before mobs die

to trigger it

[hazy breach]

You can

[tight sparrow]

if its needed

araz + prism is the
New sexy imo

[hazy breach]

Think its overhyped

[tight sparrow]

Do u think we end up using antenna + prism ?

[warm marlin]

in keys where you're even more likely to hold flag a bit and you mitigate the loss of your first flag not having a trinket i feel like prism passive has to be even better

[limpid sage]

nelf feels great in pugs when tank pulls a singular mob with 5% hp into next pack as well

[hazy breach]

Ye the longer the fight the worse double on-use is

Its quite awful in a multiple target cleave sim too

[tight sparrow]

im playing dark iron d and really happy

[hazy breach]

But its good if you have ST > big aoe on decent timers

[brisk raptor]

I was trying to read some of the guides, I think I’m missing it. Trying to figure out in AoE when to use BP vs Evis and SStorm instead of SS?

[lilac stag]

I ran forge/prism in priory. Just feels convoluted at times.

[warm marlin]

a 6min raid boss you have one blades without a trinket and 4 with. a 30 min key you have one blades without a trinket and like 19 with

[hazy breach]

BP at 4 targets, strike whenever available

[lilac stag]

I need to try it with the pvp trinket

[brisk raptor]

Thank you! Outside dance SStorm if 2+ targets?

[limpid sage]

@hazy breach do you know if bloodmallet nelf is simmed using the stat (crit/haste) that comes out ahead. If not, which is the default?

Worded it a bit weirdly, but I trust you know what I mean

[hazy breach]

I watched a key a while back from ptr where casual ended up holding his for for roughly 3.5m before using decently often as he would end up needing to delay his cds by a bit

It sims the night one

Which i think is the crit

But im not 100%

[limpid sage]

iirc it's haste

but thematically crit would be night I feel

Touch of Elune: Increases your Haste by 1% during the night.Increases your Critical Strike by 1% during the day.

[warm marlin]

nelf is always one stat in instances right

it probably uses that one

[bleak night]

Night is haste because at night you walk faster to escape the monsters

And yeah I think instances always count as night

[limpid sage]

T_T

[hazy breach]

Ye

[limpid sage]

they should make it give whichever is highest in instances

[hazy breach]

I just dont remember which one it is

But either way it doesnt really matter

[lilac stag]

Easier to move quicker when the sun goes down.

[lofty horizon]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[wet robin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[clever delta]

Do we know the spec for last boss yet

[narrow hemlock]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[tribal blade]

i'll be interested to see

[hazy breach]

Its outlaw for sure

Dragonriding AND damage amp, outlaws favourite

[warm marlin]

i dont know if ive ever suffered more

[hollow spear]

true and real

[tribal blade]

no outlaw's ever suffered from downtime

[haughty mural]

Atleast we know what outlaw will become next xpac

[tribal blade]

it's lies

they're fabricating

[kindred seal]

any idea what to get from this boys? character is on quest gear so idk if simming is indicative here

[hazy breach]

Forge or tier

[tribal blade]

very hard to say which

w/o seeing your gear

[kindred seal]

full quest gear

[hollow spear]

if you need tier: tier
if you have full tier: forge

probably

[kindred seal]

literally from the storyt quest

[tribal blade]

tier will be the biggest thing

by far

you want 4pc on sub asap

[hollow spear]

are you even a sub rogue without 4p?

[tribal blade]

between shoulders and helm, helm will give more dps

so take helm

[dusk stone]

did echo cut splits early? is that why they are 5ilvl behind

[hollow spear]

I kinda dig the cloak procs

maybe I am too animation starved as sub rogue

[alpine wraith]

it is kinda cool

[cursive vapor]

im still not…

[shy beacon]

when do we want to fan of knives to generate combo points? and why does backstab not contribute to coup de grace at times? picking up sub atm

[orchid rampart]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[onyx field]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[dusk stone]

2 or more targets, ES stacks are limited by unseen blade procs, but also don't use storm if you have shadow strike

[shy beacon]

ait, sounds good, thanks!

[gloomy slate]

Is sub bad at huge pulls?

[shadow lance]

No

[gloomy slate]

Feels like my sin dmg in m+ is so much higher on huge pulls

[shadow lance]

When you hit 30 Millions on big pulls, I don't think Sub is bad

[gloomy slate]

Hmmm

[cursive bear]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[shadow lance]

@hazy breach Is that normal that the sim doesn't propose double use in droptimizer?

Or it's just cuz it consider putting forge replacing Prism is the best upgrade and doesn't show replacing Seaforium?

[cursive bear]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

It doesnt do it by default atm, it should SoonTM

[pseudo sail]

i have a dillema, need to make a choice. i currrently have 0 tier pieces. i got myth track tier shoulders (which are as i understand not good cause stats) and hero track tier hands and myth track soleah (i have cyrstal sack and warpclaw hero)

i just dont know what the good pick is here

[shadow lance]

Oh okay, I should check in top gear then?

[hazy breach]

It doesnt in topgear either is my point

[shadow lance]

Damn

[hazy breach]

You can add this custom APL from Fuus sheet

If you press the copy to clipboard bit, paste it in the box named custom APL below your sim

It will work

[shadow lance]

Lemme give a shot

[hazy breach]

Its gonna work by default soon, i forgot to push it until recently

[shadow lance]

Good, thanks for info

[magic ruin]

With 4set: you only shuriken storm in between coups when in shadow blades, and not in a regular dance (no CDs) window because shuriken storm doesent produce enough CP so its not worth doing outside of CDs, correct?

[hazy breach]

Correct

In aoe its fine, not really a gain, but not a loss either

[magic ruin]

Okay thanks!

[shadow lance]

Maybe worth if you apply rotten if you playing it

[magic ruin]

For the 2 sets of dance between cooldowns do you try to optimize around having coup ready as first finisher so:
Dance -> Coup -> backstab -> Sectech -> coup

?

[haughty mural]

iirc if it happens good - if not dont force it

[magic ruin]

Well we often send a dance quite quick after CD's because a lot of coup stacks are still active, so its just really one window of dance we try to find a coup for, which we have a lot of time to do i guess?

[open tundra]

yo guys, if no vault dagger, do you craft a second dagger this week?
mythic loominar not gonna die

[warm marlin]

second dagger very stinky

lots of other better options

like bracers/ring

[pseudo sail]

bump

[warm marlin]

tier shoulders are okay for ilvl and good if you multispec assa

if you still need 4p maybe gloves

soleah not amazing #subtlety message

[pseudo sail]

not multispeccing this season

[warm marlin]

prob socket or just take shoulders and feel sad about haste

the ilvl probably will be a sim increase anyway can dump gilded into it and have free upgrade for loom shoulders when u get them

[haughty mural]

or just gloves ?

depends on how realistic it is for him to kill mythic loom soon

[warm marlin]

ya if he needs 4p gloves easy choice

oh i didnt read

0 tier pieces

probably gloves ya

[haughty mural]

i'll take also mythic chest for catalyst next week from my vault since i will not see mythic fractilus soon if i dont find another guild

[worthy umbra]

hi is sub a funnel class? if yes could you explain how this works? where do i have to look to understand it? also (i know maybe wrong channel) how is assa funnel? how does it work and where is the difference to sub?

[hazy breach]

Sub not really

Assa has insane funnel

[alpine wraith]

yea funnel is arcane/feral/enha/assa

sub rn is like you dont lose much st by doing cleave

and can even bp and not lose much on st either

if there are several targets around

[lilac stag]

Sub is outlaw with CDs.

https://tenor.com/view/eat-eat-everything-vacuum-hungry-glutton-gif-8641820

Assa funnel

[hazy breach]

Whereas assa gets infinitely energy (compared to like 20% empty globals)
20% agility from scent of blood
~15% of damage done to other targets through singular focus

[warm marlin]

full cp every global from fok

[hazy breach]

Ye that too

[warm marlin]

more ct damage

[worthy umbra]

ok - so sub is just playing around with CDs? outside of CDs it hits like wet noodle? i really wonder sometimes if its even worth pressing buttons - i can see saving energy/combo points before cooldowns - but it feels so bad 😅

[lilac stag]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[lilac stag]

If you don’t enjoy downtime, run assa in keys

[worthy umbra]

thanks for this summary - this pretty much sums up my experience 😄
will have to try assa some time just to compare the feeling

[lilac stag]

4pc lowers the downtime feeling in keys a bit

but it either vibes with you or it doesn’t.

[shadow lance]

Be proud of me boyz

[lilac stag]

Assa tends to feel its worst in keys when it’s just a ST

[shadow lance]

Sham told he was gonan take more sub in his keys

Little victory for us

[open depot]

Which key?

[alpine wraith]

big

[haughty mural]

priory

its in his ui

[shadow lance]

PSF, I'm farming the ring

2 dropped on that run

Noone wanted to trade

😢

[bleak wind]

@hazy breach have you tried using vanish for premed in between coups? like vanish->storm between coup or something like that?

[alpine wraith]

for the in between dances you mean?

[swift tinsel]

its cozy

I do it sometimes

[bleak wind]

ye for coups outside of blades

[shadow lance]

Worked like a charm, thanks

[swift tinsel]

if I know I won't need vanish for anything coming up I send for premed between coups

[hazy breach]

Ye was neutral when i checked

[haughty mural]

neutral but comfy

[shadow lance]

Outside of cd, I think the gain is kinda 0

[hazy breach]

I agree it feels good, ive been doing it too

But sim says

[alpine wraith]

i usually use vanish for the last 3 or 4 secs of flag after second set of cds

or in the first 40 secs to get more cdr

and do 4 dances kinda close

if bl on pull

[tight sparrow]

!FUU

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

But also vanish overall very unimpactful, barely a 1% gain to use it at all

With premed specced ofc

[shadow lance]

I use vanish when Secttech and dance are on cd for the cdr

[alpine wraith]

yea can be saved as a gap closer comfy

like for spider you can just hit then step out vanish strike in

or dimensius

[warm marlin]

i still like vanish to guarantee fw before flag so i can get my backstab danse stack withou worry

[shadow lance]

Or before blades for getting full cp and fw

[alpine wraith]

that one is also good

[swift tinsel]

get insta-killed on dimensius

[haughty mural]

[alpine wraith]

on platforms to move

while the succ is happening

[swift tinsel]

ah yeah platforms are fine just don't do it on boss

[alpine wraith]

dont vanish strike p3 dimensius

[swift tinsel]

yep learned that one

lmao

[haughty mural]

not even in melee range ?

[alpine wraith]

in melee it is fine

[swift tinsel]

you get teleported and instantly Devoured

[alpine wraith]

but if you teleport to him you get killed

[fallen crescent]

Nice

This explains it

[swift tinsel]

so gotta make sure you're snug

[haughty mural]

in the past on some bosses you would also port in melee range iirc

[alpine wraith]

outlaw boss

blizz playing favourites

smh

[haughty mural]

let them get a last tier of glory

they get mid-ranged in midnight

surely

[cedar swan]

how do we feel about stone idol?

[alpine wraith]

does not sim bad

but you feel bad using it

[cedar swan]

thats what i thought,

decent 2nd? on use?

[hazy breach]

Its an on-use ye

Fine if you dont have another good one

[swift tinsel]

I can't bring myself to play it so I'm still sitting on hoc

[hazy breach]

Use it after rupture, so
flag > rupture > trinket

[cedar swan]

got netherprism and im using a 2nd on use for 1st cds

[swift tinsel]

in prism waiting room atm

[hazy breach]

I would recommend to just not use a second on-use if its not forge

And even then its mostly for padding on adds that align well with cds

or well "padding"

[cedar swan]

also got a warpclaw in my vault, but i dont play much outlaw.. does feel like a shame passing it up

[frigid prawn]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[haughty mural]

you could pair your warpclaw with your prism

[cedar swan]

ye but im probably gonna replace it with forge when i get it

ill sim a bit

[shadow lance]

My vault is kinda sad

[hazy breach]

Chest and gloves are fine

[shadow lance]

Can't equip this week

[hazy breach]

Ye but for following weeks

[shadow lance]

Sure but I'll keep the vault until next week

Cuz, if I take the chest

And the only piece I can get next week is a chest

I'm gonna jump through windows

[haughty mural]

thats a thing ?

[keen dome]

You can let them stack up but I don'tt hink you can see the subsequent vault until you take the most recent one?

[hazy breach]

You cannot see no

[shadow lance]

Oh really?

[haughty mural]

yea thats what i thought soo

it doesnt matter

[shadow lance]

So when you open multiples vaults, it's the recent before the old? funny

[hazy breach]

Idk just take chest, use it to upgrade your current chest a bit

Catalyze next week

[shadow lance]

Can't, it's my 4p

[hazy breach]

No, its the oldest first

[haughty mural]

i have almost the exact same vault you have and ill go with chest since hands drop from 3rd boss

[shadow lance]

Yeah, soz

[hazy breach]

What

You can upgrade your current 4p

[shadow lance]

Oh ilvl wise

Yeah

You right, didn't think about that

[charred cloud]

Hello, can somebody give an advice why I sim so small on single DPS? My shadow priest around this lvl did 400k more

It is my alt and just recently give him a ilvl from 640 to 684

[shadow lance]

No set, a lot of haste in items

[charred cloud]

So just Haste on stats, got it... will try to replace it as soon as possible. But LFR was not nice to me

[shadow lance]

I mean, it's a ungeared alt

And you sim M+ talent in ST

[charred cloud]

ye, but my ungeared SP had 2.9 -3.2 that is why I am little shocked. I top gear with also single build

[shadow lance]

You comparing diff classes

It's a non-sense

I mean

SP also get more benefit from lust that you got in sims

Prolly SP got more haste/mastery than your rogue got vers/mastery

It's a patchwerk, SP will sim higher cuz he cancel 0 cast

[swift tinsel]

sub without any tier set is pretty stinky

[dense ruin]

i was watching a rogue in a rwf stream last night and he had a tiny white health bar above his chars head. anyone know if thats a WA somewhere?

[strange chasm]

What build you guys playing for keys?

[opal basalt]

The one from pins

Tried shadowcraft with tea and with cb and idk

[cursive vapor]

[rich stump]

bro since when is cheap shot a 6 second stun

[swift tinsel]

stealthi linked one a week or two ago that I've been playing with and its fun

[hazy breach]

Tww

Kidney is 8s too

[opal basalt]

Tea just seems comfier since I can just macro it into dance

[rich stump]

that is insane

[hazy breach]

Well theres almost always somebody thats done an aoe stun before so your ST stuns are DRed

[rich stump]

1 dance 3 globals no more casters lol

yea dr hurts

[swift tinsel]

yeah I feel kinda useless with single target stun and insta-break blind

[opal basalt]

Like we’re a rogue

[cursive vapor]

@hazy breach did you delete your yt channel?

[alpine wraith]

that is why you begin with cheapshot kidney 2 targets stunned forever

[opal basalt]

We should be masters of cc

[alpine wraith]

be HIM

[hazy breach]

No, just havent done any new content

[opal basalt]

Where is my AoE cheap shot

[swift tinsel]

lol

we almost had aoe kidney

[opal basalt]

I got 4p btw and man is it fun

[rich stump]

like I never use cheap shot for mobs but kidnely all the time, and 8 sec stun on an annoying caster is kinda a lot

[swift tinsel]

hell yeah it is got mine last night before reclear and blasted to high heaven

[alpine wraith]

cheapshot is fine if it is first global

[swift tinsel]

cheap shot opportunity cost is kinda meh

[alpine wraith]

not like shadowstrike does a million dmg(it does more kekw)

as long as you dont use it in dance it is fine

[swift tinsel]

if its not first global and you gotta use it in dance it sucks so hard

[alpine wraith]

getting 2 mobs looking at the sky for 6 and 8 secs is so good

like the kelp pull in floodgate

cheap one kidney another interrupt another

and aoe blind when they begin to swirl

[swift tinsel]

it does kinda help with staggering casts

[rich stump]

speaking of shadowstrike do you guys remember legion teleport machine?

[solid lotus]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[alpine wraith]

we also had shadowstrike in legion

[acoustic dust]

Guys do you know why double on use (araz+prism) is simming dogshit for me on ST? Is it just ass on ST or is the robot not using them properly ?

[wintry seal]

Robot is shit with prism.

[hazy breach]

Shouldnt be soonTM

But its not simming higher than antenna either way

[wintry seal]

Sims use it at openner.

🫥

[acoustic dust]

😐

[hazy breach]

Well ye that doesnt matter

[crystal bone]

its actually goated for hardmode dragon in taz

[warm marlin]

if ur holding prism for 3mins u should press on pull

youll overcap

[crystal bone]

1st frontal goes out -> blind -> 2nd frontal

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sullen hare]

silly question does what slot a trinket is in matter re: sims?

I can never remember if that's the case but it couldn't hurt to throw the forge in 13 and the prism in 14

[hazy breach]

No unless you have really sus trinkets not from current season

[cinder axle]

Anyone has a problem with CB in Weakauras?

[hazy breach]

For rogue atleast

[cinder axle]

for some reason it just got fucked in my weakauras and i cant fix it xD

[swift tinsel]

how so

[sullen hare]

how did it get messed up?

[cinder axle]

it just dosent show when i play sub only when used and then it dissapears

[swift tinsel]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[cinder axle]

oh what

i try that

its fixed... thank you xD

[summer crest]

Any tips posted on optimal Netherprism usage in raid and m+?

[brittle plinth]

Alternatively, play deathstalker. It's the best

[terse ruin]

Hello mates, I crafted a dagger as a first craft, which one on second ? Bracers or second dagger ? I have an heroic dagger

[warm marlin]

raid can use every shadow blades or hold for 3mins, basically equal. hold for 3mins if there's a damage amp lineup or adds or something. keys kinda same thing, can send with every blades or hold if a big pack is coming soon

trinket is flexible

[sullen hare]

never second dagger until way later and you have sparks to burn. as always but bracers/neck is what the guide says yeah? whichever of those two is a bigger upgrade for you

in my case it was neck

[terse ruin]

I ask because I already have good bracers 707

[sullen hare]

how's your neck?

[terse ruin]

Poly Mastery Hero

[alpine wraith]

you can also craft ring

just in case you get a good one you can put it in the other slot

[sullen hare]

^ also a good idea

[terse ruin]

I have Jastor 671 on my second ring, maybe good idea

[sullen hare]

knowing that I'm going to have to let go of my 671 jastor eventually too

[lofty tundra]

is there a WA to track stacks of flawless form?

[wintry seal]

I search one too, if you get one could you ping me ?

[thick niche]

What WA pack does perfecto use?

[shadow lance]

Make your own

Wa got a special tool for this simple stuff

[cursive vapor]

I made mine by myself, just medium icon of that

[lofty tundra]

would not have asked if I knew how to do it

[real plank]

hey guys
Double Elemental Focusing Lens or ascension with banding? I play M+ and Raid
(dual spec sub/assa)

[warm marlin]

ascension didnt actually sim too bad for me on sub (was basically equal on 7mins which is what most mythic bosses are rn)

[swift tinsel]

I actually think I forgot to put lens on a second item

ope

[warm marlin]

im just running crit/mast dagger/bracers with ascension/writhing

[swift tinsel]

probs just gonna put it on ring with second craft

[thick niche]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[shadow lance]

I would tell you to take one from the discord packs but if you make your own, I think you want be able to do it

[oak grotto]

Why does simc tell me to go less mastery more vers?

Is it cause they buffed finishers so you dont need as much mastery?

[warm marlin]

vers is good

if you're playing lily you already have a lot of mastery in cds

[swift tinsel]

ye it told me to drop a bunch of mastery for more vers and crit

[short radish]

luxthos one has it

[cursive vapor]

if you have the addon weakaura, create a wa > icon > choose a size > and then buffs i think > flawless form and then you can place it whereever you want

[short radish]

steal it from there

[swift tinsel]

went from like 22k to 18k

[cursive vapor]

smth like that

[swift tinsel]

but also still have hoc

bc I'm too lazy to farm pvp badge

[short radish]

just do crates

takes an hour

im a badge gamer

😎

[swift tinsel]

#subtlety message

[short radish]

because lily and prism doesnt exist

[brittle plinth]

Wowhead guides have specific sections that cover these topics for each spec. To find the best one that covers both, that'll depend on individual simming.

[lofty tundra]

ok thank you seriously I had no idea how to do it

[short radish]

use focusing lens and don't think any further about it

embelishments are so worthless

it might almost get to the point that the secondary stats from 3 ilvl is worth more than the embelish

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/look-what-yep-this-gif-13617583

[warm marlin]

imo ascension is currently better if you're multispeccing in raid

but its not a big difference

[short radish]

im never multi speccing in raid

fuck that

[hollow spear]

I'm multi subbing

[brittle plinth]

Question was about multispec

[short radish]

oh so it was

[hollow spear]

We don't ask these questions here

[short radish]

but yeah fuck multi speccing

[brittle plinth]

I agree that's why I sent him to wowhead and told him to sim

Yall being dummies giving answers

[swift tinsel]

ye tried fb sin on first two bosses and hated every second of it

sub is so much more fun

[hollow spear]

They might summon Prophet to talk about Assassination

[short radish]

the filthy spec traitor

[brittle plinth]

Deathstalker master race

[hollow spear]

I'll have to ask AI soon to check how many paragraphs he has talked about assassination in our channel

[warm marlin]

swapping off ascension for 7mins (for sub)

[hollow spear]

Might be above 50%

[warm marlin]

basically equal

then you add aoe where ascension gaps

[hollow spear]

I've got ascension on weapon and will craft focusing lens on ring probably

[short radish]

wooooooo 0.1%

[warm marlin]

but ascension is much better for assa

[hollow spear]

Get outta here

[warm marlin]

so you play it since its fine for sub too

[short radish]

yeah but its shit for keys

or a pain

[warm marlin]

yeah that part is a bit shit

[short radish]

especially with TFD

[hollow spear]

My guild level is too low and they'll probably expect me to hard target swap on Loomi

Might as well play sub then

[warm marlin]

dont worry i got flamed for being healer damage

just gotta take it

[cursive bear]

What do you guys craft as 2nd item this week ? 😄

[short radish]

i did neck

[lilac stag]

I did neck

[short radish]

wrists is a good alternative

[hollow spear]

I'll send them a 15 minute video of Whispyr getting oneguyd about target swaps with sin

[short radish]

i also did neck because i havent found one yet

[cursive bear]

With embelish i guess ?

[short radish]

yeah

[cursive bear]

ok im gonna sim to check this, thanks boyzzzzz

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/rugby-australia-state-of-origin-gif-4719269

[hollow spear]

I'm also hesitating. Ring or neck..

Kinda whatever it seems

[warm marlin]

I maybe couldve sent an envenom or two into them but like it will barely move anything

[lilac stag]

By the time it matters you’ll have another spark

[short radish]

cant fateboound swap easier

[hollow spear]

A bit

[warm marlin]

yea

[hollow spear]

But not much

Sin is stinky on swaps

You don't want to send shiv or kb

[lilac stag]

Please tell me the rshaman was a melee attack

[short radish]

wooo auto attacking

[warm marlin]

i did see a log where an assa did like 50k dps

to tangles

but that's not gonna be the difference maker

[hollow spear]

Nah

Sub can send a dance

[hollow spear]

(wait until it's almost at the boss to nimble)

[warm marlin]

I did a pull on sub to see if it would make a difference and forgot to relog so just had a bricked cold blood

very cool bug

[bleak night]

i love that bug

so much

[short radish]

blizzard really doesn't want us to play sub

[signal moth]

Is sub now the go to for raid? Everytime I see a kill vod its sub

[lilac stag]

I can’t wait for havoc to get the full sub treatment.

my guy have you looked at 3 kill videos? Or?

[signal moth]

Pretty much lol

World first nexus is sub

[frank path]

Was probably me

[lilac stag]

RWF doesn’t matter

[frank path]

Got yelled at so I tanked my dps and swapped

[signal moth]

Well it does a bit

[lilac stag]

No, it actually doesn’t. Only thing it matters for is 100 guilds 3/8 and cucked.

ask your evokers to go aug to buff your sub dmg

[signal moth]

Ok I’ll ask them

[vocal kernel]

does araz's ritual forge turn sub into a 2 minute class? or do you have to sort of manually activate it on the situation?

[signal moth]

If they play evoker they should just buff others lol

No evoker rights

[lilac stag]

our boys are getting juiced for specific parts of the fights with their ability to move other comps in and out easily.

for the rest of us, the majority will play assa

the 12-15 of us here will keep plugging away at it for the bosses that matter and maybe run assa if the st dmg is that much higher.

[frank path]

Forge will def still be sub, I think saladbar could switch to assassination depending on what they nerf

[cursive bear]

I supposed the question have been asked, but if you have the Prism trinket, can u macro it ? If yes, with what cd ?

[alpine wraith]

if you want to move cds around you would not macro it

or have 2 macros

but usually with blades

[cursive bear]

ok thanks bossss

[valid vault]

is myth seaforium bis for us?

[swift tinsel]

its good

[valid vault]

is there a chance its a waste to take if i end up getting myth antenna?

[opal basalt]

raw sims say myth antenna is better than myth pacemaker

[short radish]

just take it

everyone and their mother wants antenna

[opal basalt]

i think literally everyone wants antenna

[swift tinsel]

ye antenna highly contested across the board

[lucid jackal]

Sub is very good on some bosses

Forge weaver and nexus king mainly

It has nothing to do with Aug, or anything lol

Scath for some reason is allergic to saying sub is just very good on some of these encounters

[signal moth]

yh i guessed that lol

doomer gonna doom

[opal basalt]

gotta doom

[warped zodiac]

sub is trash don’t play it we need it buffed smiley smile

[lucid jackal]

Literally

[opal basalt]

sub bad, assa can do everything (but target swapping) better

[warped zodiac]

mediocre in pure st but throw in some adds and the dopamine has never hit higher

[opal basalt]

like even in the pure st fights i've done so far i'm topping the meters

until execute kicks in

then all those execute classes surpass me

[wheat crypt]

!sheet

[opal basalt]

!fuu

[wheat crypt]

noo

they took it away

[opal basalt]

!gear

oh damn, it really is gone

[lucid jackal]

Sub st is mid that is inarguable

[opal basalt]

also why does my role swap back to outlaw

[lucid jackal]

But sub has an absurdly strong niche

But for some reason ppl who main this spec like to both downplay it, and also pretend that it's niche never matters outside of high end progression

[opal basalt]

what is the niche guy?

like the obvious thing is incredible burst on a 1min 30s cd

[swift tinsel]

cooldown flexibility

[pseudo sail]

anyone know what the quickest way is to get the loombeast silk for the reshii wraps?

[swift tinsel]

its a super strong niche

[lucid jackal]

Having the highest burst st and aoe dps in the game, being able to shift cds around to important parts of the fight without sacrificing anything

[hazy breach]

And if you dont BL, its BY FAR the highest burst

[opal basalt]

that is true yeah

[swift tinsel]

kiss/curse of zdp outside cd's is you can move that damage whereever

[jagged rover]

also free cleave. Yeah its single target is low, but we're not sacrificing any of it to get our cleave

[swift tinsel]

but its a biiiiig kiss

[hollow spear]

cranking it with 18 stacks

Imma ask my gf to kiss me that way

won't recover

[swift tinsel]

ye I honestly love not being tied to lust for big burst

[jagged rover]

my raid leader was asking about sub during forgeweaver and I told him we don't have funnel, but we have flexible burst that we can move where needed, and the highest burst for the small burn window

[hazy breach]

The fabled 60M peak in m+

[jagged rover]

I love making our ele shaman cry in M+

[warped ferry]

can we not macro cb to st anymore?

[opal basalt]

!macro

ah wait, that didnt work

[swift tinsel]

you can

you just want a naked sectech bind

[warped ferry]

huh, for some reason i have them macro'd but it doesnt cast the coldblood

[opal basalt]

you want to press cold blood for the sectech in ur 2nd dance

[swift tinsel]

!cbbug

[opal basalt]

bot dont work

[swift tinsel]

ope

[opal basalt]

its taking the day off

apparently

[swift tinsel]

try relogging

[hazy breach]

!cbbug

[swift tinsel]

or its related to being on your stealthbar

[hazy breach]

Oh damn, bot is down

But if youve played fatebound you need to relogg

[warped ferry]

its been that way for me for days now

[gloomy slate]

why is sub 6 and up combo point usage and sin is 5 and up?

if both have deeper strat

[hazy breach]

Sin gets more combo points per builder on average

[lucid jackal]

Because the specs are different

[gloomy slate]

ah cus ambush

[lucid jackal]

[hazy breach]

Also sin doesnt have the relentlessstrikes passive sub has

[gloomy slate]

yeah but im tryina understand why not just follow blindly

[lucid jackal]

Mutilate generates more than 2 combo points on average

So that's why sin finishes on 5

[pseudo sail]

do you use coup de grace in aoe inside SD windows as a spender? and outside? or just wait until its less then 4 targets

[alpine wraith]

you always use coup

[viral phoenix]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[viral phoenix]

is there a thing for the cb bugg

[shadow lance]

You coup, but you can hold and get some ShT stacks for the burst

[viral phoenix]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[warm wagon]

!gear

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[frank path]

does the sim use double on use trinkets w/ prism correctly?

[kind bluff]

Im torn between double on use and a passive.

[strange chasm]

Honestly I think this tier is pretty sick so far. I play sub on the aoe fights and sin on ST/bleed on 3 boss.

Its kind of cool that you can do that and not really have to change gear around

[loud brook]

if there is heavy prio should I play cold blood not tea in mythic +?

like hall

[lucid jackal]

The aoe m+ builds feel cope to me

[kind bluff]

It works

[lucid jackal]

Plays like dogshit

Not a fan

[kind bluff]

It plays identical other than you have more energy. Or am I missing something.

[lucid jackal]

Tornado, no inev

[hazy breach]

Im an enjoyer of rotten but not using storm as a builder unless you have coup up

[woeful rain]

what y'all crafting this week?? rings?

[alpine wraith]

yea ring

[lucid jackal]

Probs braces

[hazy breach]

Bracers with the hc crest prob

[lucid jackal]

Yer

[alpine wraith]

look at all this people with their mythic items to use crests on

[limber relic]

Its alright I got mythic pants i can't use till next week because cata

[hazy breach]

I got a chest with avoidance from tasza

Very big pull

[alpine wraith]

big

this week my highligbt is getting lfr prism

because i dont think im getting one from raid

[swift tinsel]

we do hc fractillus tomorrow maybe so I'm praying to all gods for prism

[kind bluff]

Raid refuses to drop one

[swift tinsel]

using a reserve roll on it if it drops

100%

[kind bluff]

I miss getting the free roll on a boss of your choosing each week

[strange chasm]

this is what im playing feels great

[kind bluff]

It wasn't kind to me. But I still liked it

[strange chasm]

pre much last seasons build lol

[hollow spear]

Do you have to wait for your crests to be capped to hand in the cracked keystone quest or do they get added to the cap anyways?

[swift tinsel]

I'd wait til they're capped personally

bc if you turn it in it just acts like 15 regular crests if you're below cap

[limber relic]

Thats only a 1 time thing right? Not weekly?

[swift tinsel]

like if you have 160 you just get 175 then can get 5 more

whereas if you have 180 you get 195

[lucid jackal]

This is literally just raid build

Except with rotten and tfd

I mean the full on tornado tea no inev build

That shit sucks

[hollow spear]

raid build is with tfd and pe

[open coral]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

Pe sims worse for me

I don't buy it

[hollow spear]

Stuff is pretty close in sims

So depending on gear it sways one way or the other

Not sure if it's about "buying it"

[warm marlin]

Finality is bricked

Down with finality

[alpine wraith]

iirc the bug got implemented into simc

so in st should be a bit worse than PE if you have good gear and 4p

was about equal

[strange chasm]

That one guy who always plays sub no matter what for keys

[hollow spear]

Yeah, it's joever for finality

[alpine wraith]

with old gear

[strange chasm]

is playing the raid build lol

[alpine wraith]

works well enough

[lucid jackal]

I just don't buy it

[hollow spear]

Good for you

[viral phoenix]

do you guys in aoe situations ever consider shuriken storming once in dance similar to the coup optimization in blades to preserve UB stacks?

or is that just not worth

[swift tinsel]

I still storm once out of habit

[tight sparrow]

+16 priory 20 sec depleto anlaki

[swift tinsel]

with rotten

[vale pine]

nice

[swift tinsel]

storm in blades feels pretty seamless tho, def don't mind it

[upbeat moss]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[jagged flicker]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[jagged flicker]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[viral phoenix]

im running this build rn in m+ and it feels good but is it too stacked into rupture spreading? the build drops veil touched so wanna get a temperature check about it

[alpine wraith]

im running rotten rn

[viral phoenix]

are we rotten enjoyers again

[hollow spear]

I am running it

[alpine wraith]

until we get more gear for crit kinda

[open coral]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[worn coral]

guys I have a Q, can someone explain to me why my coup de grace isn't first but on everyone else it is? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/7q4pz1DVx3vLNdjt?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=11

[hollow spear]

because you dont have 4p?

[opal basalt]

got a netherprism from fractillus

now i only need to do weekly loomithar kills i guess

(this char is probably never gonna see mythic raid)

[viral phoenix]

is your guys's rotten build just basically s2 talents?

[mortal hamlet]

during dance without 1 min 30s is it okay to spend finishers at 5 combo points or should you shadow strike again?

[viral phoenix]

is anyone running shuriken torando without RS? idk that just feels bad I think

[lucid jackal]

Tornado build = cope + ugly

[daring laurel]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[worn coral]

do you always have to go into symbols window with fased buff?

[limpid sage]

whatever you do guys

don't vanish->shadowstrike dimensius when coming from above

[swift tinsel]

yep made that mistake on our normal kill

p3 was a shocker

[opal basalt]

that happened to me too today

lol

[swift tinsel]

new queen coup charge into web blades moment

[opal basalt]

i still played outlul on it last week

so wasnt aware

[limpid sage]

sat on 11 prism stacks

[opal basalt]

Sadge

[limpid sage]

sadge indeed

[steel horizon]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[steel horizon]

So outside of shadow blades and during normal dance windows, you still SS even if you proc the 4 piece?

Like we dont care about wasting unseen blade procs if we're outside of shadow blades?

Also second question: if we go into dance with coup ready, do we send the 2 coups before ST for big flawless form stacks? Or do we just ignore it and still do ST first?

[swift tinsel]

idk I was using storm between coups outside blades if I had the sht coverage

pooled a bit of stacks and energy by extension so could send after a storm

but that's a feelycraft move on my part

[steel horizon]

Yeah i was doing the same thing pretty much but i didnt know if it was correct or not.

[warm marlin]

raw sectec into coup storm coup with a bit of energy pooling seems fine

not like you're losing the cps from shadowstrike like you would in dance

[lethal thorn]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[trail glen]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[steel horizon]

Are you sending naked sectec often with the new tier set? I feel like the cdr on dance is so much better now that i don't find myself doing it that often. Then again i only played with the 4 set for one night so maybe i don't know what I'm doing yet.

[warm marlin]

Yes

Been getting flag 2x dance raw sectec flag 2x dance raw sectec flag consistently

The third cycle you might skip a dance

And the raw sectecs are important for unseen blades with tier

[shy beacon]

Any good complete guide on sub?

and should I craft a dagger as first craft?

[swift tinsel]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[weak magnet]

not bad 😄

[narrow lotus]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[steel horizon]

Ah so you're actually getting 3 sectec total now between burst cycles. Damn kk

Im assuming that 3rd sectec is without symbols then

[loud brook]

Are we not crafting second dagger this week? Am I fked?

[swift tinsel]

probs wouldn't recommend a second dagger if you already crafted one

[steel horizon]

Offhand weapon isn't huge like mainhand. Best to sim yourself

I ended up doing neck as my second

[swift tinsel]

I'm likely going bracers since they're already a crafted slot

and didn't turbo boost recraft so they're still low

[kind river]

I'm gonna have to enter the time chamber at some point to study sub because I understand nothing that was said here lmao

Seems like I'll have to whip out sub for at least 2 mythic bosses this tier, likely 3

But probably not until my guild reaches forgeweaver

[warm marlin]

You can send like 1 extra symbols per fight between them but it seems to delay flag a little bit so I like to hold it

So ya those are pure raw

[void needle]

help guys, I still don't have 4 set. killing myself promptly

[vale pine]

you will get it soon

you can use catalyst for 2 pieces

if you get 2k r.io

[kindred seal]

!craft

[kind river]

That's what I did, and I took a vers/mastery neck in vault so I'm not stuck waiting for next week's catalyst charge

[fair anchor]

I sent 18 prism stacks into big momma's intermission, lmao this is insane

[kind river]

I had a non-tier helm choice but I saw helm is a first boss drop so I'm likely to receive it from raid as a catalyst option

[vale pine]

dagger usually best first craft unless you got a mythic one in vault

[kindred seal]

mmm, just wanted to know about embellishments

[valid yoke]

Just got my 4p today

Holy fuck I love this spec so much

I can’t remember the last time I had this much fun playing wow

[void needle]

Downtime isn't quite as painful as before

I used to just sit on my hands for what felt like years

[vale pine]

they are within low margins, but lense usually

alternatively can do ascendence on dagger

[vale pine]

[valid yoke]

I do have a quick little optimisation question if I may

[swift tinsel]

nope not allowed

[kindred seal]

lens on what?

[swift tinsel]

jk jk send it

[last gate]

when we pop SoD?

like in opener i can only fit 1

[valid yoke]

So, sec tech is ready to go as is coup - do I send sec first for the cdr or send the coup to not overcap stacks

[golden harbor]

Sub feels soo good in m+

[spare oar]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[void needle]

I can tell that my spec is good because there are people playing it in m+

When I'm top 20 rio, the spec isn't doing too hot

[last gate]

is it good or weakest spec rn?

[void needle]

strongest spec

Probably not lol. But it is really good

[void needle]

But all the rogue specs are really healthy rn, play outlaw if you prefer it. But if you don't play sub or sin too much, now's as good a time as ever.

[golden harbor]

Idk, i just do 10s.

[last gate]

im just maining sin (2nd season) i switched from outlaw

i just dont know i dont have any hope to progress since i have no guild and pugs feel too bad

[void needle]

Pugs are generally pretty good as long as you stick to the higher end of keys. As much as I hate the rio discrimination, higher rio players are generally better

[warm marlin]

full cb sectec in tfd, triple sectec in flag

4p cdr in cds goes crazy ngl

[keen dome]

It's so good

Can we just have this tier set baked into Trickster baseline

[void needle]

Can we just have trickster baked into sub baseline

Sub genuinely got a lot better with trickster

[lucid jackal]

Probably will since they said midnight is getting new rows

[keen dome]

That'd be neat. I actually missed them saying that.

[last gate]

the point is im not getting invited to high keys

cause my rogue brings no bl nor cr

[keen dome]

Maybe they'll rework DSM while they're at it

[alpine wraith]

no bl no cr no dmg inc

but we are yellow and cool

[swift tinsel]

please nuke DS tree and start over

[keen dome]

It has a good concept, it just needs to not be tied to Stealth so much, imo.

[swift tinsel]

I also hate ds sin in keys when you're going into a pack with dn up

[keen dome]

Ye

[swift tinsel]

it's such a minor thing but its so, so annoying

[void needle]

I hate getting absolutely shafted by tanks chainpulling

[keen dome]

Deathstalker's Mark but it goes on another player, and if they die, we get a huge evicerate.

[void needle]

Sin suffers so badly from that shit

[swift tinsel]

Mark itself is an interesting vehicle for the hero tree, they just need to change the tree around it

[keen dome]

Yeah.

[swift tinsel]

having it siphon damage via singular focus, stellar idea

[keen dome]

Make it more easily applied, the big hit consumed by multiple things.

[swift tinsel]

yep, but not sectech imo

just evisc and bp

or make evisc cleave

to 8 targets

then reduced damage beyond 8

[keen dome]

I imagine it's hard to have the identity for both of them not just do the same thing

[swift tinsel]

tune accordingly

[void needle]

I think being able to run gloomblade/darkbrew and changing your primary damage type to shadow is pretty cool, not that it does too much XD

[swift tinsel]

sin has spatter to mitigate dn envenom hitting one target but we don't so its just poop soup

[keen dome]

To me, Trickster is the AoE / cleave one and DS should be the mondo mega pure ST one. but that creates an inherent issue since Assa also needs to use DS.

Hard to create and balance it for two specs.

[swift tinsel]

ye there needs to be something in the spec tree aoe-wise for DS to hook into

[keen dome]

Yeah

[void needle]

Lmao since they get fatebound which is their mega st

[swift tinsel]

which sub has zero of

[keen dome]

Ye

Which is also funny

[swift tinsel]

make nimble baseline/in the spec tree, make it shadow damage

[keen dome]

Your current target always has the mark up, but you can use a cooldown to spread it to nearby enemies which contribute to damage to the main making it the turbo prio one I dunno

[swift tinsel]

then go from there in the hero trees

[keen dome]

yo what if

Make that dark brew.

[swift tinsel]

since we're just gonna be flurry bots as a class

honestly if that was dark brew I'd vibe with it hard

[shy beacon]

are we crafting a dagger at first?

[lucid jackal]

Why would nimble be baseline? the entire point is that trickster is a blending of Outlaw, and Sub

and Outlaw is blade flurry

[keen dome]

If you aren't getting a Mythic dagger ASAP via raiding, then yeah, a crafted 720 is def the best choice. As always, sim yourself.

[void needle]

If you don't have hopes of grabbing a mythic one

[keen dome]

Outlaw also has a gun, though.

Can sub have the gun for a bit?

[swift tinsel]

hm we should get guns

[keen dome]

Can we have cannon barrage

[void needle]

Sometimes I just wanna blast a mf

[shy beacon]

Im not mythic raiding so I guess so

[swift tinsel]

we already stole dreadblades

[shy beacon]

do we get free upgrades or not?

[void needle]

Hour long tricks is also something I don't want to go back to not having

[flat marsh]

Not a fan of talents being classified into aoe/st/cleave

Making them change Damage profile/playstyle/timing is much more interesting

[lucid jackal]

But the former is how talents have always worked

[flat marsh]

Depends,some classes run the same build in st and aoe

[keen dome]

Also, aoe/st/cleave is changing damage profile and often, playstyle.

[flat marsh]

It's like skb vs ui for fire mage

A shit design would be making players stuck between aoe and st, you either do no aoe or no st

Which happens to quite a few specs given how their talent trees were designed

[loud folio]

Is dungeon slice an acceptable sim option for sub?

[keen dome]

yes

[void needle]

In that regard I do think that sins spec tree is the best designed out of them. I like the poison ST side, the Bleed AOE side, and depending on encounter you blend them. Yet their single target still has splatter for free envenom cleave, which sub doesn't have without trickster.

[swift tinsel]

sin tree is hands-down the best designed between the three

as far as options/flexibility goes

[void needle]

It's my favorite tree, least favorite playstyle XD

[pliant topaz]

my favorite tree is a binary tree, theyre so nice to work with!

[flat marsh]

It's one of the wosry imo

Given blizzard tunes classes based on raid performance

Where u can adjust talents every pull

[swift tinsel]

"as far as options/flexibility goes"

[flat marsh]

It ends up being a huge tax in ur m+ build and performance

[graceful osprey]

I still think that many abilities on the talent tree should’ve been kept baseline

[swift tinsel]

side effect of having to fill 40ish nodes

[void needle]

THIS

[flat marsh]

You have to give up a crap tons of st to do proper aoe in m+, while some specs are doing raid level st cause their talents are universally strong in st/aoe/cleave

[dusk stone]

idk

i was doing db with a sin rogue and we were dead even most of the time

granted he did have better gear than me

[flat marsh]

sin is very good this season

[lucid jackal]

But sub is good in keys rn?

[dusk stone]

sub lit

[hazy breach]

Hes talking about assa

[dusk stone]

its really prism that makes it like it is

[void needle]

He's talking about sub vs assa in keys

lmao