subtlety

[torpid silo]

Hi ! New to sub, i have a few questions !

• do we play with coup de grace a certain way ?
• do we track flawless form ?

[haughty mural]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[torpid silo]

ngl this is confusing xd

but thanks !

[hazy breach]

• Mostly on cd, just hold when Flagellation has ~20s left
• Yesnt, its up almost all the time so its mostly irrelevant but if you do track it id recommend to only track when it is not up

[alpine wraith]

you use a storm in between coups with blades

[torpid silo]

okay but why

[alpine wraith]

to not waste unseens

[hazy breach]

You cant build towards your next coup while the new 4p is active

[alpine wraith]

because escalating stacks to 4 and while coup is up from 4p you cant get more

[torpid silo]

oh, the 12s cd goes on cd but doesn't give stack ?

[hazy breach]

Its the new tierset

So not relevant this week

[torpid silo]

ooookaaay okay !

[haughty mural]

Yea focus on basics

Minmax new tier afterwards

[rocky ocean]

doesnt it prevent further stacks even without tier?

[hazy breach]

Well yes you cant have more than 4

But if you coup youre at 0

[worn coral]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[keen dome]

Perfectly balanced.

[swift tinsel]

dayum that's hot

[torpid silo]

void or night elf ?

[jolly sapphire]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[keen dome]

Whichever you personally like more. It doesn't really matter.

[torpid silo]

okayy

you don't macro cold blood and secret technique ? why ?

[hazy breach]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[torpid silo]

oh okay

i figured you only casted Secret techniques during shadow blades

guess not

[jolly sapphire]

do we still backstab when we start the dance rotation ?

[tepid trellis]

its used once every shadow dance

[clever delta]

whats good delve today?

gonna do my warlock now

[torpid silo]

but outside of them too ? don't the cooldowns line up ?

[tepid trellis]

its never really used outside of dance no.

[limpid sage]

How much of a gain is it to storm between coups?

[torpid silo]

okayokay

[merry agate]

Small... 1% or so? Minor gain i think

[tepid trellis]

somwhere around 0.5-1.1%

[crystal bone]

^ @limpid sage

[merry agate]

Cant remember

[tepid trellis]

yes, still backstab to consume premed

[limpid sage]

Ty!

[crystal bone]

[waxen matrix]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warped zodiac]

how we feelin about the cursed stone idol? i got it and it seems silly lol

[cursive vapor]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[cursive vapor]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[alpine wraith]

after the big nerfs it is not as good

still decent but annoying to use

biggest poblem is that it has a channel

and we want to use trinkets in dance just after or before sec tech

[steel zinc]

you wont play it

no matter what sim says

sim executes perfectly and thats not how the game works just an indicator. Channeld trinkets are just a pain.

[hazy breach]

I mean its not like transmitter

You just press it efter rupture

[steel zinc]

Yeah true but transmitter was also

[warped zodiac]

its one of those things where its like. if i get it max in vault with nothing else to take i'll probably take it and use it

[hazy breach]

Its fine ye

A bit annoying compared to lily or pvp trinket but fine

[warped zodiac]

oh right i always forget the pvp trinket is unironically really good at start of season lmao

[steel zinc]

just get a better vault

[astral axle]

[placid scaffold]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[real panther]

@vale pine there's no fibre on the cloak for the dungeon slice sim, it's a bug?

[lilac stag]

Just use mastery

[alpine wraith]

think he means it may not be using any and doing less dps

but i think it is fine mostly the boots special effect also does not show well

[lilac stag]

oh. Idk I’m just using dslice for gearing not for what spec or talents to play.

[hollow plinth]

seems like just a visual thing

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/hello-wave-hi-finger-gun-gif-10371486226550421023

[steel zinc]

Anyone done as DD Kyveza ?? I got here to 50% but the melee hits just kill u

Trying as sub because of versa

[gloomy slate]

wait wtf, did i fall asleep and wakeup in another dimension, why is crit bis for sub aoe

[vale pine]

just a display/tooltip bug but i can fix later

[lilac stag]

We’re not playing CB.

[vale pine]

it does not show when the gem id is not specified, which was not the case before very recent

[lilac stag]

Stats are whatever

[vale pine]

(because the bonus id's change the stat already)

[alpine wraith]

yea just close eyes stack mastery big 50k mastery situation

[swift tinsel]

double 691 daggers letsgo

[alpine wraith]

sadly this tier the mastery set will take forever to get

[gloomy slate]

😮

[alpine wraith]

as i cant really off tier head for a long while

[gloomy slate]

https://tenor.com/view/stantwt-chained-up-chained-gif-67266779391248431

no cb

sub unchained

[alpine wraith]

funnily enough finishers will hit harder with no cb

just because tea buffs several

vs 1

and we will have higher crit in dungeons

[gloomy slate]

tea is 20% mastery now? LUL

[alpine wraith]

it will take time for people to get used to not spam builders tho

to not proc it

[night sparrow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

We also lose SecTech dmg from new tier

[gloomy slate]

is crit bis st too?

[patent lichen]

Sim yourself

[lilac stag]

We. Don’t. Care. About. Secondaries. Just avoid haste and sim too gear.

[short radish]

I knew my pooling energy outside of dances would pay off eventually

[swift tinsel]

might need to add my tick bar back on

[real panther]

ok thanks, no problem, just wanted to be sure

I have dance+sod blank of tea before the next big cds window, it's the normal way or did I fat-fingered my bind? x)

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

these macros are quite good

i like the backstab/dance/tea one

(even tho it requires two key presses for backstab)

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel I’m up to 3 belts and a cloak.

[real panther]

ok. I have a sb+tea and dance+tea

(ofc the sb+tea I use another dance bind with no tea right before)

ok no idk there's a problem with that rotation or I missed something (probly that) my 2 big window is delayed by 40sec before I got a 1 stack of tea.. (and obviously no tea for the 2nd dance in that window)

[clever delta]

i dont even know how this mask thing works so im skipping 😄

[real panther]

win1:flag-sb-dancex2-teax2
between:dance-tea
30s before win2: dance-tea(just got 1 stack back)
win2 (~40s cd on the 2nd dance stack): have to wait to get 1 stack of tea back
What did I misunderstood here? 🙁

[clever delta]

i was doing just bare minimum in visions

[warm marlin]

don't delay cds, just use tea as you have it

[swift tinsel]

time to hit Atlantic City

[warm marlin]

its a 1min recharge, it cannot sync with 90s recharge spells

[real panther]

ok. so i wastn wrong on the doing just on the wanting xD

[hazy breach]

My recommendation is to just have the dance+tea macro and not bother thinking about it

[real panther]

thank you mate. I'll go with that

[meager coyote]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

fake, its not green

[hollow spear]

If you change your gamma it might become purple?

[cinder valve]

Can anyone help me understand when to use BP in M+? Do we eviscerate up to 7 targets with flawless form up? I've read several guides, but seem to be getting mixed info... 🙂

[hazy breach]

With ~4 find weaknesses up you BP

[vale pine]

told you its a fake image, this is the correct one

[lilac stag]

I thought this was the purple channel

[chrome palm]

wait a sec

[honest scarab]

did ID of Cold Blood changed? eventually can u tell me what is new spell ID please?

[chrome palm]

the thistle tea icon is just MILK???

[hazy breach]

No

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[chrome palm]

we've been drinking milk this entire time...

[cinder valve]

Gotcha!

[warm marlin]

Canadian master plan

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/homelander-milk-gif-21858374

[void ocean]

thats subtletea

[north schooner]

that 2% is the amount of truth in that image

[keen dome]

purple tea?!?! i'm in

[chrome palm]

it has 2% written on the side

theyve played us for fools

i just tried those hd icons and noticed this

[north schooner]

https://tenor.com/view/rock-lee-weights-naruto-chunin-exams-flex-gif-26433140

sub rogues when they start drinking 10% thistle tea

[alpine wraith]

man my man rock lee always got done dirty

[slender zodiac]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[slender zodiac]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[terse ruin]

Hey mates, when we will prefer to use Shuriken Tornado ?

[alpine wraith]

depends on the situation

usually to get cdr or put ruptures

[south kernel]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

more aoe heavy -> tornado
more cleave heavy -> replicating

for "how to play it"

usually outside of dance as a filler

[terse ruin]

with BP I guess if more than 3 targets ?

it's not used for burst so

[vale pine]

you can try to use it during symbols as builder

just not during dance because it causes a gcd

[terse ruin]

Thx

and an other question

I'm using the one I saw on Kush's stream. Can you tell me why the one in the guide is better?

[vale pine]

thats for m+ or raid?

[terse ruin]

M+

[vale pine]

The main difference is rotten, he likely uses it for consistency

so you get find weankess up reliable

[terse ruin]

Yes it's easy to proc weakness on all the pack with this

[terse ruin]

Without rotten what is the best way to proc weakness on all target ?

[vale pine]

to use storm once with the rotten buff

^^

[lethal gale]

Maybe my brain is small but why do we backstab in dance to gain the DM stack wouldn't SS do the same thing? Flag>rup>dance/symobls>bs or ss>blades/ sec tec?

[terse ruin]

Haha without Rotten there is not way ?

[vale pine]

no

no reliable way

but we use storm between coups

so we will have more storm casts

(4 piece buff)

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

^ 2nd optimization

[terse ruin]

Interesting with the new 4p

[north schooner]

DM gives a stack per unique ability and you are very likely going to use at least 2 SS during the dance's course

[steel zinc]

Best talent build for m+

Imo

[vale pine]

probably not bad before tier set

[long swallow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lethal gale]

so even the dmg from the first sectec would be the same using ss or bs on opener its the damage that comes after sectec that is amped. I am assuming it resets inbetween dance applications so that is why we would use on the second application of dance because sectec is your 2nd supercharged finisher. idk maybe im overthinking. Talent isn't very clear imo

[north schooner]

the stacks reset when you exit SD and since you cannot overlap dances they will drop yes. And indeed it might not affect the sectec but it does amplify anything after that. You only backstab if you are talented into Premeditation though

[lethal gale]

Im curious how big a st hit you could have thinking trying use rup+storm+bs+ss+bp would maybe only work with having TFD lol

[warm marlin]

while sectec is a large amount of your damage, eviscerates, unseen blades, shadowstrikes all do a lot of damage in cds so its good to amp them too. you're trading some 800k-1M damage difference between a ss and a bs for 6% more damage on your last 3-5 globals of dance

[lethal gale]

Ya this makes more sense. I was thinking it was purely for the ST hit which was throwing me off esp in the opener when you ST first finisher

[north schooner]

keep in mind that this optimisation is like a 0,6% dps increase over just using SS only. It's not a difference that will be clearly visible when you're pressing your buttons

[lethal gale]

My thought is just have a seperate macro for dance/backstab to not think about it. the 2nd dance in opener can sometimes be a little awk cause im sometimes finshing dance on full combo points

[north schooner]

the good thing about the bs/dance macro is that you don't need to press it twice in succession, having a finisher in between works just as fine

it's more of a muscle memory issue

[terse ruin]

Can we macro the tea with something or it's important to use it solo ?

[alpine wraith]

you can macro it to dance

[steel zinc]

even with tier played so much ptr m+ imo is the go to way

[kind bluff]

What are most people crafting week 1?

[haughty mural]

+1

Maybe with really good crit numbers later into the season you can argue

But don’t want to miss the urgency to get FWs up with 100% chance on demand

Also that the rotten bug is fixed even better imo

[warm marlin]

mainhand dagger

[hidden spade]

What was the bug?

[cunning mist]

How much better is tea then CB?

[lilac stag]

Dagger. Anything else is irrelevant. If you hold for mythic 2nd boss, unless instructed by guild, youre slowing down progress.

[rain void]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glacial hinge]

Holding for HC dagger is bad compared to craft ilv wise?

[tepid trellis]

about 1%

[lilac stag]

MH weapon is your biggest possible increase.

Throw focusing on it and enjoy

[tepid trellis]

any knowers on what delves are quick today

[cunning mist]

Thanks - I do enjoy having the big number at the end of the window 😄

[swift tinsel]

Sleuce is teleporter

so pretty quick

[hidden spade]

Sinkhole

[glacial hinge]

Undermine doing under 4mins

[carmine portal]

Fungal Folly always

[cunning mist]

Sluice is okay

[lilac stag]

You’re wasting crests on a heroic dagger imo

[glacial hinge]

Fair ye, good point

[lilac stag]

You want to get out of heroic quests asap for discount

[glacial hinge]

++ ty for the tips, been doing dagger so far but since its on second boss had me second guessing

[lilac stag]

Worse case you have a good offhand

[stable plume]

I see Shuriken Tornado isn't being recommended in M+ build anymore. Is Replicating shadows much better?

[hazy breach]

No, both are good

You can move these 2 points around as you wish (veiltouched, nado, replicating)

[hidden spade]

Is anyone else’s great vault saying you’ve only done level 7 delves when you’ve done level 8?

[slate lantern]

level 7 has the level 8 vault rewards

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[slate lantern]

7 and up 694 heroic

[proven plover]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[slate lantern]

fatebound assa enjoyers self reporting

[north schooner]

man how did they even manage this

[iron plover]

hi guys! A bit new - how do we choose the actual weapon when using the spark of starlight in an order?

[scarlet sky]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[iron plover]

do we just choose everforged stabber and pray the random rolls are vers/mast?

[keen dome]

You can set the stats with a Missive.

Purchasable on the AH 🙂

Just search for Algari Missive and peep them for the different stats

And then when you craft it, you can slot the missive into the craft.

[iron plover]

ooo awesome, thank you!!

also, does the reagant quality matter? I see theres tier 1, 2, and 3 for example for ironclaw alloy

[hazy breach]

Yes, the quality of the items you provide roughly equate to the quality of the finished item

[iron plover]

so we want to use all tier 3 items then i assume?

[hazy breach]

IE the ilvl of their dagger is higher if you use r3 stuff

Yes

[iron plover]

perfect, thank you!

theres no way to get the enchanted runed ethereal crest currently is there?

[fluid fiber]

whats the fastest way to get those ethereal strands to upgrade the cloak? max is 707 this week or? i am 701 and no matter how many dungeons I did or delves they wont drop...

[brazen flint]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dry plank]

They drop from 7+ delves

[fluid fiber]

aaah, thx mate

sorry another question. do we already play with that new talents linked in the pin for dungeons? without cb and stuff? or we stick to "old" talents until new season actually starts and we have new t set. because i feel like my burst atleast in st with those new talents is way worse than before

[fallen crescent]

I had mine drop from a +4 and +5 delve.

[swift tinsel]

You can play either really

[rocky ocean]

[jagged rover]

realized today I never really pay attention to when I have coup vs evis, I'm going to have to update my auras so that I am actually aware of when coup is available

[nocturne birch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[zealous hedge]

Is a Sword off hand still a -?

[patent lichen]

Can you even equip a sword offhand

[zealous hedge]

honestly idk, i know at somepoint you could

[full badge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[broken spindle]

boys, the feet/ring with the effect is not bis for our spec?

[cobalt surge]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hollow cobalt]

i see we play thistle tea now, how do we use it? with symbols?

[tepid trellis]

dance

[hazy breach]

Yes its bad

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[scarlet radish]

That’s only for m+ isn’t it

Raid single target is still cold blood I think

[zealous hedge]

that sucks

[bright sundial]

wait whats the reason for playing tea over cb in m+?

[hazy breach]

Sectech is weaker in aoe than it is on singletarget

[void hound]

i havent followed ptr at all, is it a assa angle for m+ again or is sub good now

[hazy breach]

Relative to our other spells

[hazy breach]

Assa is insane, sub is very very good

[void hound]

huh

so assa it is

[vale pine]

depends, tuning is not done

[hazy breach]

Casual said its sub in dawnbreaker and streets for sure

And probably floodgate

Too much pure st so assa blows

[void hound]

i see

how is outlaw

[hazy breach]

Zac says it did s2 damage on ptr

[slate marlin]

floodgate? theres only 1 pure st fight there isnt there?

[hazy breach]

Its probably an exagerration, but its way weaker than the other specs

[steel jolt]

Swampface is ST too

there's only one fight with adds in FG

[hazy breach]

True, but cds line up well for 90s

[slate marlin]

2nd and 3rd boss you can have adds on boss

1st already has

last is bad for assa

[hazy breach]

In high keys theres almost always either 3 or 6 divers on swampface

[steel jolt]

well i mean, i guess you can bring adds to almost any boss. i thought we were just talking about the boss design

[slate marlin]

Its about how dungeons are played

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[honest basin]

Sin may have funnel but we got that reverse funnel

[merry agate]

My only gripe with floodgate was big momma...

Boss feels shit as sub

[vale pine]

sin has reverse funnel too

its ccalled fatebound

[bleak night]

Fatebound gaming

[vale pine]

they also now have the 90 sec niche

means the 2 things separating us now are:

• low trade offs in mythic+ talent wise
• stronger burst

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/homelander-gif-26153874

[scarlet radish]

I mean unless your pushing like r1 keys, it ain’t really gonna matter

[vital sage]

so CB in raid, tea in keys? Unless you're looking to do more boss damage in keys i guess. I know it always depends on the encounter/comp, what content you're doing

[slate lantern]

And idk why but I get the feeling that anyone asking "what's the best spec" is not really dealing with that problem

[vital sage]

just play em all D:

[hollow cobalt]

At how much seconds on 2nd stack of shadowdance should i send it?

i have like difficulties to be sure to send 2 dances

i also don't understand when i should symbols outside of dance

[swift tinsel]

You’ll generally send two symbols and two dances between first and second Flag, one between second and third Flag, two between third and fourth, etc

In single target

Aoe is a bit different bc of more cp spent

Use when secret technique has ~10 sec left on its cd so the second Supercharged combo point is used on it

[hollow cobalt]

okok

we still blackpowder at 7 targ inside of dance?

[hazy breach]

7 targets on average or 4 targets with find weakness up if you want to be more minmaxy

[gaunt bluff]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[gaunt bluff]

i recently watched shindig's last season vid on sub, do we not prio coup fazed eviscerate over secret technique during shadow dance anymore?

wowhead says 1. secret

[zealous hedge]

am i doing it wrong if my instant posion is my highest damage?

[steel jolt]

yes i think so

are you not using cooldowns or something?

[zealous hedge]

i didnt want to waste my mana so i just stabbed the guy 100+ times

[steel jolt]

rogues are energy and it comes back pretty quickly

[hazy breach]

You never did during flag and blades, and outside of those theres no difference in sims between coup first and sectech first so might aswell just say to always sectech first

[gaunt bluff]

alright thank u

[hazy breach]

The main draw of using sectech first is to get more cdr from the coups

[zealous hedge]

ah ty Muffin

[slender zodiac]

with the new m+ build when do you use tea?

[hazy breach]

Like ye if you used coup first sectech would do more damage, but you would also have wasted atleast 24s of cdr on it by using 2 coups before, which isnt worth

[hazy breach]

Macro it to dance

[slender zodiac]

usually to make my life a bit more easy i was using dance with symbols

[lilac stag]

did i assert my dominance?

[hazy breach]

Did you get pi? If so thats fake

Fr

[lilac stag]

no I got Dawnbreaker

[slender zodiac]

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Symbols of Death, nulla
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nulla```

is this ok to use or i should not use symbols with dance now?

[lilac stag]

you dont macro symbols to anything

[gaunt bluff]

btw is it normal for radiant power to sim the best in dslice? wowhead also says the stat ones are better

[lilac stag]

yes

that or stats

@hazy breach that dungeon is just so much fun as sub

[swift tinsel]

Just a humble tfd farmer

[lilac stag]

that will be my vault key every chance I get

[slender zodiac]

why?

i mean i have it on other bind also but why should i not macro it?

[swift tinsel]

Because you don’t use it in the same global as dance all the time

[lilac stag]

becuase the spec isn't played like that

there are times you are dancing back to back and holding symbols

[slender zodiac]

hmm ok

[lilac stag]

we are the anti-macro spec

work on your typing skillz

[swift tinsel]

If it ain’t a trinket/potion macro we bin it

[zealous hedge]

wait why

[swift tinsel]

(Mostly)

[lilac stag]

becuase you are saving Symbols for sectech

which isnt always up at the start of dance

there used to be a bot command

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I miss it

[gaunt bluff]

i mean dont u sometimes send symbols and it might carry over into dance so u dont wanna waste extra seconds of symbols by using the macro

[swift tinsel]

!burst my beloved

[wicked jolt]

During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.

[swift tinsel]

Oh nice

It’s back lol

^ that’s why you don’t wanna macro

[zealous hedge]

Oh because of the supercharged

[slender zodiac]

oh now it makes more sense

[lilac stag]

you're sending dry symbols when it's not interferring with dance

[gaunt bluff]

oh the moroes explanation makes so much more sense

[lilac stag]

supercharding sectech is the priority. dance is the gateway

[swift tinsel]

^^

[lilac stag]

#deleteallofyourmacros

[zealous hedge]

Everytime i stand in a mechanic i should get a permanent supercharged combo point

[gaunt bluff]

speaking of macros is there actually a way to make it so my keybind would use a healthstone only if crimson vial is on cd?

i need to make a whole new keybind only for hs for this class otherwise

[zealous hedge]

why?

Oh health i read hearth my bad

[hollow cobalt]

for now i sim way more in dungeon and patchwerk with the old CB build tbh

are we sure we gonna play with tea? or is it only with new set?

[lilac stag]

it's a wash , play whatever

[zealous hedge]

feel like the tea is better for M+ higher you go

[swift tinsel]

New set adds more power to coup over the current set that adds more power to Sectech

So cb loses value with new set

But like scath said it’s not much of a diff

[hollow cobalt]

okok so i'm right till we don't have new set we play cb

[lilac stag]

you'll get a bigger gain spec swapping than worrying about cd or tea

[hollow cobalt]

and we don't loose st?

in mm+

i liked sub because we had good st and also good Aoe in mm+

[swift tinsel]

That doesn’t change

[hollow cobalt]

do we still have good St wihtout the Rotten and cb?

[lilac stag]

our aoe is pants

[zealous hedge]

why is sectec capped at 5?

was it always?

[lilac stag]

ask blizzaed

[zealous hedge]

ill write a ticket rn ong

[swift tinsel]

Imma go back to reporting the entire bug list one report at a time like I did on ptr

Every day

[bleak night]

open 100 individual tickets all under payment issues

not getting what you're paying for until these bugs are fixed

[lavish rose]

sorry for annoying question trying to find but cant

[zealous hedge]

Yeah i didnt buy the PRE order for TWW to get capped at 5 on sectec

[lavish rose]

we dont pool at all around thistle tea right

we just let it happen

[zealous hedge]

pretty sure you use it with Shadowdance

[lilac stag]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[lavish rose]

and if it procs cause energy hits 0 it doesnt matter

yea hi understand we can macro

[zealous hedge]

nah u cant help it

[lavish rose]

but we dont pool to avoid it right

kk sounds good

ty

i stopped playing early last season and we just werent taking tea at all so i wasnt sure

[zealous hedge]

yeah me too dw

[lavish rose]

also kinda seems like assas might be more clearly the move in m+ this season but ill see how it plays out for me

apparently raid has tons of damage amps which sounds like sub will be best

[lilac stag]

no ppooling

[zealous hedge]

yeah well see tuning isnt done yet either

[lavish rose]

i hope assass pulls ahead i find it more engaging in M+

i was just rolling sub almost every map last season and it worked pretty good

[lilac stag]

my guy assa is already way ahead

[lavish rose]

yeah i mean with tuning

prob will stay ahead toh

[glacial haven]

assa boring compared tbh

[lavish rose]

even in m+?

i think the most satisfying thing for me was hitting cb + sectech on a huge pack lol

the fact that sub rotation was really samey in all scenarios kinda bothered me

[dusk stone]

is it still possible to get s2 set bonus with cata?

[misty condor]

sin is kinda boring honestly, the best thing about it is iron wire imo

[lavish rose]

im gonna try sin in raid cause ive never really done it but it seems boring

right now my sin st pulls ahead in sims

[misty condor]

It's nice having sustained damage out of melee but maybe I jsut don't enjoy dot classes

[lavish rose]

i remember being really frustrated on mugzee as sub

in gaol jail

[dusk stone]

i hated that fight as sub

[lavish rose]

doing 300k dps to the fucking add lol

[bleak night]

i promise you, you wouldve been infinitely more frustrated going into a gaol as assa lmao

[lavish rose]

idk werent people playing around rupture buff on that fight?

and the execute

[bleak night]

no

well execute yes

idk what you mean by rupture

assa was good because it could cleave the adds through the gaols without going in

and then do good execute

[lavish rose]

yeah with that

and couldnt empowered rupture spread to both adds

[bleak night]

no

[lavish rose]

o

[bleak night]

but if you were in a guild that made you go into a gaol anyway ( ) then going in as assa was a fate worse than death

[lavish rose]

did they fix the thing exile was doing to shadowtep into it

[lilac stag]

I was first jail. if someone didnt get gripped out I insta VE'd the fuck out haha

[lavish rose]

yee i was forced in gaols, i guess as sub you can just time your cds better

[bleak night]

i have genuinely never been more tempted to race change lmao

than i was on that fight

[lilac stag]

not really

[lavish rose]

wasnt there a way to ss into gaols

maybe they fixed it

i thought exile was doing it

[bleak night]

the timings didnt work very well for sub in gaols either

you just auto attacked it and got out if you could

[lilac stag]

if you're in there as Sub you had to use cds. your dmg outside of cds wouldnt kill add

[bleak night]

just make warlock do it

[lilac stag]

and then their pet doesnt go in jail

and you're fucked

[bleak night]

honestly i hope they never do a mechanic like that again ngl

just unfun in every scenario

unless you were a fire mage

because of course mages get to have fun

[lilac stag]

i kid you not, I ended up in jail because the lock pet kept bugging out. he was supposed to solo it

[bleak night]

[lilac stag]

sub could fuck up the robot adds to pad

[bleak night]

yeah having the shield break just as your sectec hits and deletes them was fun

stopped counting for parse but damage amps always fun

[lilac stag]

ye

[honest basin]

[young roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

i ended up assa on that fight. with the push timings, we at times struggled to finish him before bombs got to us so funnel execute was giga

[bleak night]

funnily enough i ended up as sub on that fight because we got to it so late execute didnt matter, just people not being dumbasses

[hazy breach]

Pretty sure he just velf:ed out

The step thing was insanely inconsistent, not worth bothering with

[dusk stone]

how deprecated is circes ring as this point

[hazy breach]

Very

Dont use

[dusk stone]

did it get nerfed again?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[dusk stone]

ty

and the disc belt, is that good now? last i saw it had no tertiary

[hazy breach]

Yes its fine

Worth slightly higher than its ilvl

Replaced by a myth track belt generally

[steep raven]

How bad is auto-proccing thistle tea?

[hazy breach]

Completely fine

Just macro it to dance and dont worry about it

[dusk stone]

that yeah

[steep raven]

Should I try to not auto-proc it? Like holding backstab until 70 energy? Is there benefit to that?

[hazy breach]

Not really no

[steep raven]

Huh, ok, thanks :)

[glacial haven]

how do u guys think we doing in m+ , feels like we strong

[hazy breach]

Yep

[solemn flame]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[solemn creek]

My big debat is weither to go sub or sin for mythic prog..

[onyx socket]

my guild wants me to go sub

[solemn creek]

Guess ill wait to see how the profile is early on

[hazy breach]

I suggest the insanely advanced technology of picking whatever you find the most fun

[onyx socket]

yeah thats what i said

[solemn creek]

Well.. what if i find all of them fun

Except outlaw

[dusk stone]

idk so the thing is we got an aura buff, a bp buff and a shadow blade fix for NF. The set bonus we get is a 17% flat dps increase over current tier so

but thats kinda indepedent of the buffs others got is the thing

[solemn flame]

if a guild tells u what to prog just based on sims n stuff and no actual fight data and dmg profiles needed for specific stuff thats a big red no no flag

[dusk stone]

so far in m+ it feels mid but im still rusty

[hazy breach]

Where do you get the 17% number from

[dusk stone]

current tier is 14% and the new one is around 30% or so

from what i read

[solemn creek]

Pretty sure they are asking based on damage profile of fight.. cose sin/outlaw sims better

[hazy breach]

Well ye but you also gain a bunch of ilvl, so its not like its 17%

[solemn creek]

So their need wouldnt be "go sub"

[dusk stone]

well ilvl kinda doesnt matter tho right because we all get it and this is all about the variables

we were shit in m+ last season borderline unplayable

[onyx socket]

they were talking about a rogue player on max's stream saying sub will be a sleeper pick or something

i dont know .. never heard of the guy

[hazy breach]

Absolutely not but ok

[real panther]

whot?

[chrome palm]

You could time 20s as sub without too much trouble

[solemn creek]

We werent frost dk.. but thats about it 🤣

Or uh*

[dusk stone]

idk about that the only sub rogue i saw at the top was lashga

all the others quit last patch

[bleak night]

thank god for lashga carrying the sub rogue torch

leading the way

[chrome palm]

Damn

Our rank one sub didn’t get title this time

How could this be

[dusk stone]

but yeah it was bad

we got a ton of stuff so idk how we will do this season so far it seems mid in m+

[chrome palm]

Did you see sub on ptr

It’s one of the highest damage specs

Literally untouchable in dawnbreaker

[hazy breach]

Non rogues are hyping up assa to be giga op the best dps of all, meanwhile the rogue players are thinking about playing sub in a couple of the dungeons

[real panther]

I play sub because it's the way

[tight sequoia]

Sub opener

90 buttons

[real panther]

I have bought a keyboard I want to get return on invesment

[hazy breach]

Im also quite hopeful we will either get a small buff indirectly.

[dusk stone]

i saw casual on sub and him doing some cracked numbers yes but i saw that at the start of last season as well

[hazy breach]

I think theyll either nerf ritual forge (the trinket almost everybody else uses) or buff prism (the trinket we are already using)

[lilac stag]

i dont think anyone outside of this discord has the foggiest idea of what sub actually is or does well

[hazy breach]

Well they didnt gut us two week before the patch this time

[chrome palm]

Sub notoriously did well start of season 2 due to how it was tuned to be strong at the beginning to compensate for not scaling well

Well it’s not like they intended this but it resulted in this

[dusk stone]

sorry, i meant that casual was doing good numbers at the official start of s2 doing keys

[scarlet radish]

Fingers crossed I’ll out dps a aug evoker this season

[hazy breach]

Nor do they seem to know assa. 🦉man said assa didnt have a funnel talent like the aldrachi dh one

[chrome palm]

Sub did super crazy damage week 1

[tight sequoia]

Ritual forge is disgusting

[chrome palm]

It’s not really comparable to this season

[tight sequoia]

I hope it gets nerfed to the ground

[hazy breach]

Its really not

[lilac stag]

it did well becuase we had a trinket as powerful as mythic s2 trinkets, we got a dagger week 1. that's it. we got everything, while others needed ilvl and they all got buffed

[hazy breach]

Its just a regular trinket among among a sea of dogshit

[tight sequoia]

How much agi is it again

30-40k gyat

[hazy breach]

Its significantly weaker than ashes from dragonflight for example

[scarlet radish]

Was easy to clap running transmitter + mandate at the start of season 2

[dusk stone]

what is your opinion of sub this season for m+ so far

[tight sequoia]

Look cuh ima play whatever spec does more dmg

[lilac stag]

enjoy assa

[tight sequoia]

Assa plays way smoother in dungeons ngl

[lilac stag]

and sub maybe on dmg amps

[tight sequoia]

Sub will be useless in low keys for sure so we wont know till higher up

Where assa is forced into kingsbane

[hazy breach]

What

[tight sequoia]

[lilac stag]

meta wont matter for a month if not more until hof people start actually pushing

and another set of tuning

[hazy breach]

Bleed better all the way now

[tight sequoia]

No ?

[lilac stag]

bleed is insane

[tight sequoia]

Hybrid better

[lilac stag]

no

[tight sequoia]

No?

[bleak night]

[tight sequoia]

Is bleed overpowering bleed rn for high end keys ?

Kingsbane *

[chrome palm]

Bleed in high keys?

[hazy breach]

Do you consider 19s and 20s on the ptr to be high keys

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/superman-tell-me-do-you-bleed-gif-18627508

[hazy breach]

Because those all played bleed, as it did way more

Because the new tier buffs bleed way more

[tight sequoia]

How the fk is bleed outpacing kingmaker

[lilac stag]

and shocking, assa got more ST dmg with the CT nerf

[hazy breach]

Kingsbane sucks ass

[chrome palm]

Holy potato st

[lilac stag]

KB is our WM kekw

[tight sequoia]

So were just running bleed all the way up

[bleak night]

tier is giga bleed stonks

[tight sequoia]

Thats nice

[bleak night]

ap value through the roof

[tight sequoia]

Only one cooldown

[lilac stag]

i swear shiv is more impactful than KB

[tight sequoia]

Whats the comp though

[bleak night]

shiv is absolutely more impactful than kb yeah

actually assa main cd

[tight sequoia]

Double funnel or single funnel is the question

[lilac stag]

ask Whispyr

he knows meta assa better

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1106224572811984956/1400111973571625000/Whispyr.gif

[tight sequoia]

Assa feral resto shammy monk warrior ?

[bleak night]

yoink

[lilac stag]

ask whispyr

[swift tinsel]

I yoinked from Schmeeps myself lol

throwing Whispyr to the fotm wolves again

[lilac stag]

it's always the yellow names

[swift tinsel]

apm outpaces brainwaves sometimes

[lilac stag]

most of the time

[swift tinsel]

tru

[lilac stag]

if they have enough haste

it's always

[lilac stag]

you need to set the line in the dirt right now. whispyr gets the fotm andy's. eleem gets the double on use debbies

[supple verge]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```

[lilac stag]

fuu gets all the random ass sim questions, and solo deals with unmedicated adhd in outlaw. everyone is at peace

[dusk stone]

is it better to use thistle tea or cb before the new tier

[tight sequoia]

@lilac stag What do you mean unmedicated

Adhd

Wait is that why outlaw is my favorite xlass

[solid elm]

is there anyone who can tell me how to propper use shuriken tornado in M+ ? it seems so strange

[hazy breach]

On cd mostly

[dusk stone]

what are the sub keys we think

[hazy breach]

Streets and dawn for sure

Probably floodgate

[dusk stone]

floodgate being sub key is wild

[solid elm]

so basically just outside CDs get some CDR on dance on cd ? or do we wanna have it going within dance ?

[hazy breach]

Either is fine

[solid elm]

awesome cheers

[old anchor]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[chrome palm]

My best time in fg this season was on sub

I ran it mostly as sin however

[bleak night]

[chrome palm]

I don’t really know why but it goes crazy there

[hazy breach]

90s good

[chrome palm]

Ah

[hazy breach]

120s not as good

[chrome palm]

Yeah sin sits on shit a lot there

Now that I think of it

[hazy breach]

I dont want to say the prio is fake, but the prio in floodgate is more safety rather than time a lot of the time. Like bloodwarper dies significantly ahead of the other mobs as an example

Obv prio on bosses matter

[bright elk]

Dang sub sims lower than outlaw/assa in st

[hazy breach]

But like onephasing architects feel cool, but you still spend a bunch of time killing the divers and bombs after

Atleast in my group with an enhance

[chrome palm]

Big momma and swamp is quite good on sin

[hazy breach]

Ye

[chrome palm]

It does kinda feel awkward on something like big momma as far as using vanish

Like you really want to hold it for death mark

It takes so many global to setup as sin there

[hazy breach]

Idk ive been thinking if its possible to use blades on the amp on MOMMA

If thats enough to cut one phase, but maybe not

[chrome palm]

It definitely feels awkward to do so

They need to cut out the dead time on momma

[hazy breach]

Shield got +5 seconds

[chrome palm]

That 5s or so from when adds die and she does the cast

[drifting fable]

is there a raidbots discord where i can like ask to add an item properly?

[hazy breach]

Simc discord

[drifting fable]

can i get a link on that

nvm i see it on the site

[hazy breach]

Like im pretty sure you can kill the first set of adds without blades np as your other dpsers have bl but the second set is probably rough

Idk well have to see, full prism and cds would go hard during 200% amp though

[swift tinsel]

made a quick WA that tells you if you have non-Mastery gem in the cloak if for some weird reason you switched it to play outlaw if anyone wants

only has the blue quality bonusID's atm since I haven't fetched the epic ones yet

[civic lake]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[solid elm]

@hazy breach what do you think of black powder vs evis as trickster with flurry? doesnt it take a good amount of targets to be worth ?

[random mason]

!bp

[wicked bear]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

Halls maybe since there are a lot of TFD resets

[hazy breach]

4 find weaknesses or more up is BP

Theres a find weakness tracker here #subtlety message

It says if you should BP or not

[hazy breach]

Funnel seems strong there so assa might be too good

But we will see, maybe sub and/or assa get minor buffs for raid

[lilac stag]

yeah. Kinda a toss up / tank pulls

[solid elm]

awesome! ill take a look at i guess you would still go for evis in case you need to funnel some dmg ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[lucid jackal]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rwRZPF2d2ocyt2YT7ZnVyZ am i doing something wrong

[lilac stag]

I had forgot how much travel halls had

[lucid jackal]

Why is the "suggested talent setup" worse

is it a new tier thing

[solid elm]

very likely

[hazy breach]

I mean its the same

But ye new tier thing

Finality is worse with new tier because more coups

Youd think it would be the opposite, but finality only buffs one hit out of the three for coup, not the entire cast

And its not buffing the last hit, which is the one that does the most damage so

[zealous hedge]

cringe

[lucid jackal]

I see

What about RS

Why drop RS with tier

Just crit is better

[hazy breach]

Ye but pe requires two points

[solid elm]

actually sadge

[lucid jackal]

I saw ppl talking TFD tho

[hazy breach]

As imp sht is kinda pointless

[lucid jackal]

Is it just drop WM for TFD for this last week of the raid

Or

[hazy breach]

Tfd sims better in standard sim

[lilac stag]

TFD has the same benefits + more with tier since we're storming more.

more storm = less WM

[hazy breach]

6-7 minutes is when wm starts to edge out

[lilac stag]

and that's with 100% uptime

[hazy breach]

Wm is not a good talent, we would not pick it if it wasnt required for pathing

[lilac stag]

aka WM is shit

[civic lake]

if i gear and stat prio for sub in raid, how bad would my dmg take a hit if i played sin in M+?

[lucid jackal]

so this the move

until tier

[lilac stag]

none

[lucid jackal]

and then swap RS finality for PE sht

[hazy breach]

Practically nothing

[hazy breach]

Ye prob

[civic lake]

love to hear it thanks

[lilac stag]

I would take EE but that's personal pref

[hazy breach]

(ee is the heal from finisher talent at the top)

[lucid jackal]

ya

[lilac stag]

the absorb is EE no, or am I mixing up abbreviations

the shield imo better than the extra healing since we dont need healing unless its a major

[hazy breach]

Well it does both

The other one is you take more healing

[lilac stag]

ye

that one is a nope (for me)

[zealous hedge]

am i on crack? what talents are you talking about

[hollow prawn]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[zealous hedge]

how the fuck have i never in my life seen that talent

[lilac stag]

you played assa and outlaw

[zealous hedge]

i was reading everyone trying to understand LOL

[hazy breach]

usually the healing taken is better in raid and the shield is better in keys

But it obviously depends

[zealous hedge]

I did not ive only really played sub beside assa for pvp season 1 and 2

[lilac stag]

it's been there forever

[bright sundial]

guys how much dps loss in m+ if i play cb over tea?

[lilac stag]

little to none

[zealous hedge]

to be fair im stupid

[lilac stag]

to be fair we all are

https://tenor.com/view/letterkenny-to-be-fair-serious-lets-be-fair-gif-16087355

[hazy breach]

Less than 1%, but why though, tea is passive and you dont need to think about it

[zealous hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/letter-kenny-wayne-to-be-fair-gif-14458907

[zealous hedge]

cause one cold blue hand is cool /s

[bleak night]

real

[lilac stag]

Imagine if it was purple

[zealous hedge]

purple = win

[civic lake]

so, is there a reason not to macro trinket into shadow blades?

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[short radish]

if you like playing the piano i guess

[civic lake]

sorry relearning sub and didnt see it on the macro page on wow head

[hazy breach]

When you get prism you might want to hold onto it for your next use sometimes

But other trinkets should be macroed to blades

Besides cursed idol which has a cast time so you need to use it before blades

[civic lake]

why no cold blood + sec tec macro?

[hazy breach]

!cb

[wicked jolt]

• Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
  When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
  (yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.

[hazy breach]

You can still have a macro, but youd want one sectech without cb bound too

[plush roost]

Someone got a high res picture of Dave

[civic lake]

ahh ty! sorry if im asking reepeated questions i scrolled up a bit but not a ton

[plush roost]

Need it for memery

[hazy breach]

No worries man

Or woman, or anything else. Who knows

[tight sequoia]

Dave…

Scary

[young path]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bleak night]

thats a high res dave

holy

[plush roost]

Ty sir

[shell willow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hallow adder]

Can some1 tell me why we'd talent improve shuriken over shadow focus in single target (pure st) situations as recommended? Is it just bc energy is such a low concern, esp with improved shadow techniques, that you might as well have the option?

[lucid jackal]

If u presss storm like, 2 times in a fight its a better talent to take

And SF does barely anything even on pure ST

so its just whats suggested by default

[hallow adder]

I gotcha, thx

[bright sundial]

question for big aoe when do we fit in shadow strikes for coup and more flawless forms

[tepid trellis]

During dances

[civic lake]

am i supposed to be using symols on CD most of the time?

[short radish]

no

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[half comet]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[civic lake]

i see the symbols pre pull for supercharger. does that stack or is it a visual bug? if i press it twice it LOOKs like i have 4 supercharged combo points

[short radish]

!cheese

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[tepid trellis]

It resets Down back to 2

[civic lake]

does it not on target dummy? LE WA still shows multipul stacks when i pull

[quasi mantle]

yeah id assume it doesnt reset on target dummy

[fleet wharf]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[civic swallow]

is there any sort of cloak skip right now for alts?

[random mason]

Yes

[mighty delta]

why is thistle tea taken over CB in mythic plus build on wowhead?

[chrome palm]

More crit from gear, secret technique is a smaller part of the damage profile

[tepid trellis]

New tier leans more into coup dmg. Plus sectech being capped to 5 instead of 8 targets makes cb less good for AoE still very strong on single target

[mighty delta]

gotcha that makes sense

[stiff stirrup]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[wide kernel]

The hell? sectec got reduced in aoe size

[tepid trellis]

no, we just thought it was 8 like the rest of our kit was

but it is not

[keen monolith]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[steel jolt]

dang he makes it look ez https://youtu.be/bzWGWcDCt1U

[bleak night]

i need to try it on sub later

i was just getting beat to death on assa

plus she kept resetting on vanish

[steel jolt]

hate that

i accidentally reset a delve boss the otehr day and it just never came back

so i couldn't complete it

[bleak night]

yeah same lmao

[honest void]

8 mins damn

what a gigachad

[steel jolt]

yup

he actually looked bored

[tight sequoia]

No he was locked the fuck in

Makes me wanna try now

[steep raven]

Do you press Shuriken Storm during Flag/SB window ever?

[vernal junco]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[tepid trellis]

sometimes yes

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[short radish]

with the cheese, is it 1% each or 1% total

[upper plinth]

To 10sec of rupture or Just Not Evis/sT?

[tepid trellis]

only rupture if you actually need to refresh it

[upper plinth]

So i Just Bp for 10sec be4 CDs? Or is it Just to early for me?

[tepid trellis]

you dont use

any

you just wait

[upper plinth]

Ok thats weird Shit but ok

[tepid trellis]

its like 1-2 finisher you would max get

[upper plinth]

But i still Press builders? I jut dont spent the CP?

[tepid trellis]

you just build to max with stab

then wait

can stab when you are about to overcap energy

but that doesent really matter since stab does negative dmg

[upper plinth]

Thx Sir!

[alpine wraith]

yea you just keep stabbing

let them know pain

[short radish]

take your hands off your keyboard and give them a stretch

its important to look after yourself

[upper plinth]

After the many years Out Outlaw maybe thats not a Bad Idea

[woeful roost]

guys, anyone knows why no one runs Cold Blood anymore in Sub Trick for M+? it does less dmg?

[short radish]

yeah do it. just do 2 rotations clockwise, wait for energy to build up again

then 2 rotations counter clockwise

(rotations of the wrist)

[hidden basin]

Is it really that bad? Haven’t played since dragonflight

[short radish]

is what that bad

gotta be specific on the bad

[vale pine]

our aoe spells become more potent and it makes tea stronger.
Secret techn would need its target cap changed to a more reasonable 8 to keep cb as stronger option

[vale pine]

hard to say, but how strong a spec is is always relative to the others and assassination is (again) insanely strong this season

[patent moss]

i thought sub was #1 this season its not?

[vale pine]

in raid or mythic+?

i can't predict it in raid as mythic is not out, so we will see if sub can get benefits over sin on some encounters

keep in mind that subtlety lost the cooldown advantage of 90 sec to sin, so both have the same damage pattern now

[short radish]

who is spreading this misinformation

tell them to stop that right now

[vale pine]

this takes away the biggest advantage of subtlety

[patent moss]

yes i will sacrifice them d/w

[vale pine]

also assassinaiton is

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[patent moss]

where can i get this info from

[vale pine]

~200k ahead in good gear

funnily enough, i did a bit of dummy testing

and me simply following a rotation helper advise

had me beat the sim

so sin is crazy in output

[bleak night]

You mean dummies that are always in perma execute

[vale pine]

haha

[upbeat oracle]

cuz execute?

[bleak night]

But yeah assa will be very strong

I have no doubt

[short radish]

[vale pine]

so question is

[bleak night]

I still think a few fights are sub though for sure

Like I don't think you can play fatebound on nexus king salad bar

[upbeat oracle]

but fb is susge on cleave

[vale pine]

what makes subtlety win against assassination

the main thing is

add fights

[upbeat oracle]

cleave like 4th boss

[vale pine]

and there is the potential to compete on fights with damage amps

[upbeat oracle]

fb is very sus there and ds is annoying with moving mark to a lot of potential swap targets

[vale pine]

so these are the fights we might see it played

[patent moss]

fk man got learn 2 rotations and raise these damn spoiled kids smh

[hidden basin]

I like how Deathstalker sub is so bad it’s not even there

[jaunty heath]

Potential to compete on fights with damage amps is so ridiculous

[patent moss]

do you use wowhead for the guides

[wheat edge]

Somehow Richard Reverbington returned!

[upbeat oracle]

dw they fix it 2 seasons later just how the made fb playable for sin kekw

[hidden basin]

lol

[vale pine]

for mythic+ we have a similar pattern

[upbeat oracle]

tho technically thats incorrect since its only looks playable with new tier set and w/o it blows

[bleak night]

No it's still good without tier in st

[wheat edge]

nah its still way ahead on ST compared to deathstalker without tier

[bleak night]

Better than deathstalker

At least

[wild vine]

Ye thats wrong

[vale pine]

assassination is the best for m+ in any dungeon you can pull at least one extra mob with bosses and have low amounts of pure single target

[upbeat oracle]

ok but it doesnt give capstone 100% does it w/o the set

[vale pine]

which means 3 dungeons have the potential for subtlety to be played

[wheat edge]

yes it does

[bleak night]

It does not

Not without 2p

[wheat edge]

or wait

[wild vine]

Playing without tier just means its worse to play, still numerically better

[bleak night]

So yes it does have more variance without tier

But just get tier 4head

All rogues will be claiming to be sub until they get tier anyway

[wheat edge]

yeah im dumb but yeah also 2 piece shouldnt be hard to get

[hidden basin]

Imma try sub and assa in keys to keep it fresh. I don’t play at high enough level for it to matter

[bleak night]

Gotta put those sim numbers to use

[haughty geyser]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[bleak night]

Based

[upbeat oracle]

aint hard to get, yes, but if they dont make changes to hero tree next patch to have guaranteed capstone on a burst w/o current 2set that would be omega cringe to rely on that kind of rng

[tepid trellis]

i think you are mostly gonna see sub in rwf, unless they know something that i dont, the dynamic profile is too good

[upbeat oracle]

sub also goes way more vers which is somewhat important in such extreme circumstances

so ye, unless sin is crazy good in comparsion id bet on sub anyway

[vale pine]

think it will be:

• sub on mixed fight styles
• sin on the more single target heavy ones

[short radish]

guy was right once again

[patent moss]

where can i find good guides for each of the 2 i was using wowhead

[wheat edge]

and at the end of the day if you have to swap to sin from sub it doesnt matter cause you use the same gear anyways

[tepid trellis]

ehh, rogue is infinite tanky in raid without vers, not really a factor

[bleak night]

I'll be playing assa fb on every fight it's good and sub on the rest

I will no longer be bound by mark

[tepid trellis]

purely just comes down to how the fight is

[bleak night]

I'm breaking these chains