subtlety

[alpine wraith]

yea fatebound assa bugs cb

[keen dome]

Yeah it's really funny

[leaden prairie]

number 1 is s2 only no ?

why would i do that in s3

[wicked urchin]

Apologies because there's probably an easy way to find it but what are the % increases for our 2pc and 4pc?

[vale pine]

yes

[leaden prairie]

unless i wanna hold coup

ok

[vale pine]

its still worth it

s3

🙂

[keen dome]

10% and 20% respectively, iirc. So 30% for all?

[warm marlin]

coup even stronger now cuh, holding it means twice as many coups in cds!

compared to s2

[wicked urchin]

tyty

[void ocean]

lol peacemaker 😄

[wicked urchin]

we have one of the stronger gains from tier right?

[keen dome]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

you still want to hold coup

[leaden prairie]

well this aint saying to hold coup ,this is saying to hold finishers os that would be to hold s2 tier

[hazy breach]

More shadow technique stacks

[leaden prairie]

well then you would not use finishers at all

[hazy breach]

Ye

[leaden prairie]

you are lying to me again eleem

why lie to me

[hazy breach]

No

[wicked urchin]

@warm marlin i'm gonna get closer to you next tier

[hazy breach]

You would indeed not use finishers

[warm marlin]

[vale pine]

^

[void ocean]

just be edging for 10sec

[warm marlin]

dw i will int until .5

no netherprism angle

[vale pine]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2X18kr4ZRyQBhYYvfp2nnf

[keen dome]

Think of it as optimal posting time before burst

[vale pine]

as mentioned, 2p rougly 10%, 4p 20% on top

[leaden prairie]

ok i mean sure, thats not what the command says tho

either of you is lying

[vale pine]

huh?

[wicked urchin]

i had pvp trinket basically until dinars

we're brothers

[alpine wraith]

nani

you hold everyyyything

[vale pine]

you would still e.g. refresh a rupture if its about to run out

so wdym

[warm marlin]

i did replace my pvp trinket with dinar hoc

[vale pine]

zac

[alpine wraith]

that one rupture so it at least pandemics the one after flag

then just

watch something

on second monitor and not let energy go full

[wicked urchin]

had to double check but i did too

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[warm marlin]

brothers in shit loot smh

[vale pine]

7 backstabs look cursed

[wicked urchin]

great time to be alive

[alpine wraith]

it is to also bank sht

[vale pine]

if i should re-word the command let me know

[alpine wraith]

well tbh most of the time you will stay less time afk

but sometimes this happens

you get to full cp have good rupture timer

[solar charm]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **you can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use shuriken storm to not proc unseen blade before using your 2nd coup.
• Explanation: The tier set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any unseen blade procs between the 2 coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[alpine wraith]

and dont want to waste coup or sht

if you are already at 3 escalating chances are you proc in those 20 secs

actually it is 100% because of base unseen cdr

so it does do that

[warm marlin]

holy twins

[wicked urchin]

@warm marlin mind if i dm you about a couple sub things sometimes?

[warm marlin]

ye is np

[wicked urchin]

added

[alpine wraith]

i mean the command itself is clear and fine

[void ocean]

...we could go grab a drink...

[alpine wraith]

just sometimes you can afk for longer

[wicked urchin]

what if we all grabbed a drink

[alpine wraith]

or well you actually dont afk because you do not want energy to be full

so you still stab

[warm marlin]

you should backstab asap once you have energy rather than just to not overcap

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/killed-em-hold-this-stabbed-gif-14017151

actual gameplay

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bongo-cat-rogue-gif-24661232

[warm marlin]

spending the energy on cp > spending sht while cp bar is not full and then might as well get the extra global in, since flag is free and rupture is 25 energy, so you'll never be oom for cds

[keen dome]

Thank you for the ping with conquest stuff, btw! But it's still S2 so I imagine it'll all go away on reset 🙁

[lilac stag]

Yeah weird offseason shit

[keen dome]

Yeah. Everything but pvp has shifted to S3 haha

[lilac stag]

did you see the new rogue animation?

I posted it slightly after the ping

[keen dome]

The bad back animation of not leaving stealth's animation?

Otherwise nope

[alpine wraith]

you want less chances to waste unseens at 4

so that is why you ideally dont want to stab as much at full cp

but as always RNG

on thousand cuts resets

[short radish]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

[alpine wraith]

so it is likely whatever

[warm marlin]

you waste less of them proccing them asap since you dont know when thousand cuts resets

[keen dome]

I thought that when I saw it, too

[warm marlin]

i did sim not backstabbing 5s out from cds to see if holding them for dmg amps from dance etc was a gain and it was not

[lilac stag]

damn energy getting in the way

[alpine wraith]

yea tbh might as well

unseens do hit hard

[warm marlin]

especially with new 2p unseen kinda hitting hard

[leaden prairie]

well in s2 you would spam rupture for cdr and shit still no ? when you would stop using dispatch

[chrome palm]

have you tried backstabbing with intent

[leaden prairie]

i guess now you mean to just refresh the buffs but afk for techniques

[alpine wraith]

with old 2p you did but with the nerfed one you just stopped

and use the same condition as now

you just refresh rupture if it wont get to pandemic before flag

then stab to full

then keep stabbing

[void ocean]

then stab some more

[warm marlin]

you could for cdr but usually if you were playing clean you had enough anyway so you could just backstab instead

wasn't too tight to hit the breakpoints to double dance in cds

[alpine wraith]

there is some cool ideas to triple dance but it is very weird

[void ocean]

stab that... ALONAFLOO
stab that... KIMISAMOO...

[alpine wraith]

and i could never make it do it well

trying to get trinket + flag and blades on second and third sec tech but ehhhh

would need a shaman slave to check if it krangles at 3 mins and 4:30 etc

or maybe do second set of cds normal and do the full stack prism with that on 3 mins

[vale pine]

You did use BP initially, and it is not that far behind but not using a finisher is better

[alpine wraith]

it also looks cooler

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/backstab-gif-19810743

[wraith sphinx]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **you can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use shuriken storm to not proc unseen blade before using your 2nd coup.
• Explanation: The tier set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any unseen blade procs between the 2 coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[leaden prairie]

🧀

[vale pine]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[leaden prairie]

ye im a master cheeser

lover of fromage

[warm marlin]

baguette au fromage

[hazy breach]

Prefer rawdogging baguettes personally

Good ones dont need much

[vale pine]

!cheese should work too

!cheese

nope

haha

[leaden prairie]

L

[void ocean]

!gouda

[warm marlin]

cheese making it into the official bot command is the early sign of it getting fixed

[vale pine]

!brie

!cheese

[leaden prairie]

@vale pine btw

[vale pine]

alright, both works now

[leaden prairie]

in term of crafting

i think its 2nd boss that drops a dagger this tier

so might wanna hold off on crafting dagger this tier i guess

[alpine wraith]

dagger with lens can go on offhand

and it is still your embellish

[vale pine]

^

[keen dome]

If you are killing second boss Myth early it makes sense I guess

[alpine wraith]

vs crafting some weak ass wrist

[vale pine]

i make a note

[alpine wraith]

and spending 90 crests on upgrading a M dagger

[leaden prairie]

Well off hand illvl is generally worse than most things

When you could craft a big agi slot early on

[alpine wraith]

you could craft shoulders it depends

[void ocean]

neck!

[alpine wraith]

getting good necks is a bit easier

[keen dome]

Which is our off-set tier this season? shoulders?

[alpine wraith]

but that one works too

yea shoulders

[vale pine]

crafting tier slot is not good

[void ocean]

u sound like a vampire 😄

[vale pine]

because you want tier bonus

[hazy breach]

Crafting a ring would be better than a neck

Since you can get another ring without wasting it

[vale pine]

ring is def. a good option because of slots

[keen dome]

Ye

I support ring crafts and I am not bias'd at all

[void ocean]

why, u gettin married?

[keen dome]

Jewelcrafter.

[void ocean]

ye that would be my 2nd guess

[alpine wraith]

i will likely craft wep but yea ring can also be decent same reason as wep i guess

[lilac stag]

!gouda

[hoary coyote]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **you can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use shuriken storm to not proc unseen blade before using your 2nd coup.
• Explanation: The tier set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any unseen blade procs between the 2 coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[alpine wraith]

maybe you drop 2 daggers !

[void ocean]

tried already

i guess the command wasnt smoked

[lilac stag]

rip

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tsss-drum-band-gif-7320811

[pastel rampart]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[pastel rampart]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

i put a note

[void ocean]

so no bounty delves this week, right?

[vale pine]

i also did this to help people decide on hero talents unbiased

[spice escarp]

i confuse

[spice escarp]

hey thats me!

[alpine wraith]

just in case

just stole that nft

[jade urchin]

black powder on 4 targets? :O

[maiden pilot]

what does FW mean? Im stuck 😄

[alpine wraith]

find weakness

[maiden pilot]

Ahh, thanks

[chrome palm]

use deathstalker in situations where st or aoe is not important 👍

[shadow lance]

Just for being annoying, you forgot the ! Before prepull command. Love you Fuu 😘

[alpine wraith]

you can rp as deathstalker

[maiden pilot]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[chrome palm]

all my homies dark stalker

[alpine wraith]

wow preys are always suspecting

that means DS is -20% dps

WHO GOES THERE

[vale pine]

not annoying, thanks, fixed

[void ocean]

i know this has been discussed but wth does 4+ targets /3 FW mean

do we use bp on 4 targets regardless of fw

[maiden pilot]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **you can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use shuriken storm to not proc unseen blade before using your 2nd coup.
• Explanation: The tier set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any unseen blade procs between the 2 coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[shadow lance]

I think, yes. BP on 4+ target or on 3 target with FW i guess

[maiden pilot]

is Shuriken Tornado still accurate on wowhead on how we use it? Because it is recommended now in M+

[vale pine]

yes

you can switch to replicating shadow if you want for more cleave damage

there is a bit of choice

[maiden pilot]

alright , thanks 🙂

[remote shuttle]

Use DS only in pvp

Maybe?

[vale pine]

yes

deathstalker is popular in pvp

[remote shuttle]

S2 DS was really stronger than TS so It will be again ontop for pvp i guess

U can still have fun up to 2.5k with TS imho

[vestal escarp]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[hidden jasper]

How does our major cooldown usage change if we have a 2 minute trinket instead of a 1min 30. Do we simply delay their use by 30 seconds?

[sacred yarrow]

moroes on overtime today 🤭
"estoy cansado jefe"

[hidden jasper]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hollow spear]

We use the trinket as 3min trinket

[hidden jasper]

ty!

[hollow spear]

You can just macro it to shadow blades

[knotty depot]

I'm guessing it's sim reasons but why did we drop Replicating Shadows and took Shuriken Tornado in the common M+ build ?

[alpine wraith]

i would not drop replicating but also from sims the loss is not that big

will depend on dungeon in the end

[carmine portal]

We are doomed

WE ARE SO BACK

[alpine wraith]

i have bad news about pacemaker

[runic trail]

No bad news allowed, only hype

[carmine portal]

I dont care it's A. Ilvl upgrade B. a fuck load of agi

[thorn thunder]

is it possible to get a full spark today? or next week?

[alpine wraith]

oh if you had a bad trink it is still very good

you can also send all carved crests onto it

no worries

[crystal bone]

full spark, ilvl 707 cloak

[alpine wraith]

as you get half you get a quest that completes it

if your wep sucks you can craft the 691

[thorn thunder]

where is the quest? i got my half spark

[alpine wraith]

go into the place where you cata things

[carmine portal]

Catalysts as usual?

[thorn thunder]

yeh i talked to him

[alpine wraith]

there should be an auto accepted quest

[swift tinsel]

Presumably alternates weeks

[thorn thunder]

but he didnt give me spark

[alpine wraith]

did you get the quest before getting the spark?

[thorn thunder]

did 2 already

[swift tinsel]

Spark -> catalyst -> spark -> etc

[thorn thunder]

negative

[alpine wraith]

rip

the quest completion is getting 1 half

but you already did

[thorn thunder]

thiong is

[alpine wraith]

so know what happens now

[thorn thunder]

i was able to complete

the spark quest

[alpine wraith]

wait rel?

[thorn thunder]

yes

[alpine wraith]

then you should have 2 halves then right click them

[swift tinsel]

Didn’t that happen last tier too

[thorn thunder]

but i still only have half spark

[swift tinsel]

With people able to get full sparks day one and it was goofy

So they granted people an extra

[alpine wraith]

but yea being blizz who knows

[thorn thunder]

maaaaan :c

[alpine wraith]

yea i have a full spark rn

[swift tinsel]

I haven’t talked to the guy yet, will probably do that before pinnacle farming bc apparently you can get keys already

[crystal bone]

i got my first half from a delve chest and my 2nd half from a weekly quest turn in, i think the 3 delves quest

didnt even need to talk to cata guy

[thorn thunder]

interesting

[swift tinsel]

Ehehehe

[alpine wraith]

do the theater and the arathi one too

[swift tinsel]

Blizz gold standard

[tribal blade]

are these sparklies on the bottom of your screen randomly a bug from the cloak or something

my guildies and i noticed it today

[tribal blade]

same here

[crystal bone]

do u not want a little sparkles in ur life??

😄

[tribal blade]

haha yeah it's cool, just wondering what tf is going on

but considering so many things are breaking in the game atm

[crystal bone]

i didn't notice any sparkles 🙁

[alpine wraith]

everything is sparkle

[tribal blade]

earlier today when i got the cloak i suddenly couldn't requip gear and it wouldn't let me put on 2 embel items, and then it disappeared my pacemaker

started panicking

thankfully a relog fixed it

the sparklies are gone now

[tribal blade]

maybe i'm just special

[alpine wraith]

watch out you dont end like this

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[alpine wraith]

dual wielding jastors and HoC

[tribal blade]

YOOOO actually how good is that

2 jastors and 2 hoc

you get the bug too?

[alpine wraith]

no ididnt it was from someone ebove

[tribal blade]

ahhhh

[vale pine]

just realized i forgt to add legendary cloak info to the pin

fixed

easy

[tribal blade]

the sparklies are back

[wicked urchin]

thank god i checked the sim and used mastery

[alpine wraith]

tell people to use the pure one

it gives +500 stats

[tribal blade]

yeah and the mats are very cheap

i don't think you need r3 mats either

[alpine wraith]

actually might do one about that

it has no qual

so you can r1 rawdog yea

[crystal bone]

i heard the tailors need to be renown 5 though, is that already achieveable?

[wicked urchin]

even if you use r3 mats its like less than 1.5k

[alpine wraith]

same as enchanted crests from way back

[tribal blade]

yeah so there's no reason to not get it

[wicked urchin]

one of our guildies did it today

[alpine wraith]

yea you can get renown 8 today

on NA maybe abit higher

[crystal bone]

oh nice

[tribal blade]

yeah my guildie made me all 4 today

[crystal bone]

i know the first thing im doing when i get home

[wicked urchin]

are they interchangable without needing to craft new ones?

[alpine wraith]

just public order it for like 400 gold

[tribal blade]

yes

[wicked urchin]

somehow that surprises me

[tribal blade]

they're basically like sockets you can take out and put back in infinitely

[patent crystal]

Can someone link the trinket sim?

[wicked urchin]

nice being able to switch out if i need

[tribal blade]

like the socket gear during SoD SL

[thorn thunder]

thanks! got my second half off theater now

[alpine wraith]

nice SAVED

[wicked urchin]

idk why but i hate a new patch coming out and then having barely anything to do after a few hours

[alpine wraith]

man applying to guilds is getting tiring as f

[tribal blade]

btw the new delve is atrociously annoying

[alpine wraith]

you can kill rares or do all WQ with the contract

you dont even need to do it right?

[vale pine]

F

[tribal blade]

it takes forever

[wicked urchin]

i was supposed to do that a few weeks ago but girlfriend had a bike accident so i was off wow for a bit

[alpine wraith]

can just fungal to rank 11

[tribal blade]

and then trying to find the final boss is so hard

yeah fungal folly super fast

[alpine wraith]

havent checked which vers it is today

so might see it and sluice

[wicked urchin]

she's fine now but it definitely feels too late for apps

[alpine wraith]

and recommend 1 or the other depending for EU

well week 1 or 2 may have some more spots free

after people krangle the raids

had to kinda do the same on S1

[tribal blade]

on NA fungal folly on day 1 was the one where you need to run around channeling those mushrooms and dodging the green poop

[alpine wraith]

could not get guild until like almost 3rd week

[vale pine]

fungal folly and slush

are both fast

[alpine wraith]

depends on vers that is why i want to check yea

[tribal blade]

i did ranked up my delves in the new one for a few levels till i wanted to off myself

[wicked urchin]

i got one guild bite but they need 4-5 weeks of farm for apps trials

[alpine wraith]

if you get the fill the bar + teleporter on sluice

it is like 2 mins

[tribal blade]

went to fungal folly and it was miles better

[wicked urchin]

which is understandable

but i have a maybe in once theyre on farm

[tribal blade]

i really like the aesthetic of the new zone

reminds me of SL aesthetics

[lilac stag]

hmm, i didn't realize we get a full spark this week

[alpine wraith]

yea if gold is not a problem

crafting the 691 is fine

[bright sundial]

guys am i tripping or does wowhead build have PF and tornado for m+?

[wicked urchin]

so we have two crafts next week then yeah? or is it a week after

[tribal blade]

oh is it actually? i need to double check with my RL

[alpine wraith]

no next week it is half spark

[tribal blade]

i assume most people are gonna craft dagger next week

[alpine wraith]

yes

[crystal bone]

i did all T8 delves and climbed to T8 in under 2 hours doing the delve by priory

[lilac stag]

i'm gonna just rip my 691 for this week

[crystal bone]

but i dont recall if the story changes every day?

[lilac stag]

every day

[tribal blade]

yeah it changes daily

[crystal bone]

but yesterday it was incredibly fast

[lilac stag]

FF is a good one on NA for the next hour

[tribal blade]

need to ask my RL because we got these instructions

[solid elm]

Is tashavash available on M+ 0 ?

[alpine wraith]

no

[solid elm]

cheers

[wicked urchin]

can you even use coffer keys this week

[tribal blade]

he said no

[alpine wraith]

no delves are bountiful so no

[wicked urchin]

no but literally

you cant

lol

[tribal blade]

i think it's mostly there because on TWW launch we had a guildie accidently use his coffer key when it wasn't a fully leveled bountiful delve

[wicked urchin]

yeah that makes sense

[tribal blade]

surprise surprise it was the guy on our raid team who's always so baked he dies to everything in raid

[short aurora]

Which delve are you guys running for the 8x8?

Fungal i assume

[wicked urchin]

sounds worse than my situation

[tribal blade]

haha he's not a bad guy, it's just funny

[tribal blade]

depends on what story it is, but when i ran it was very fast

[wicked urchin]

abyss was fastest for me

0 combat beside boss

[tribal blade]

btw if you're an enchanter cloak enchants are insta selling atm

made 3 and put them up and they all sold within like ~2 mins

[alpine wraith]

yea everyone getting reshii wraps

[wicked urchin]

the biggest perk is no cloaks in vaults

i say that having not getting a cloak for the first half of the last tier

[tribal blade]

i actually kinda like this cloak so far

[wicked urchin]

i kinda wish it had a perma action button

[carmine portal]

sure it has been asked 100x today alrdy but max cloak this week is 707?

[wicked urchin]

yep

[carmine portal]

Awesome tysm

[willow fulcrum]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **you can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use shuriken storm to not proc unseen blade before using your 2nd coup.
• Explanation: The tier set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any unseen blade procs between the 2 coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[charred willow]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[brisk onyx]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[rapid forum]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[swift tinsel]

did they actually take the underwater business out of Sinkhole and the other one?

thought I read somewhere they did

[slate lantern]

yeah theyre no longer underwater

[swift tinsel]

W

[crystal bone]

lmao

i mean the idea was cool, an underwater delve, just was executed poorly

[swift tinsel]

yeah, I usually used an underwater breathing flask thing so it was less ass but still pretty ass

unless I was on my dk then I just chilled bc undead

[crystal bone]

undead is based

[lilac stag]

ok 11's unlocked

we ready for next week

[vale pine]

nice

[crystal bone]

fuu i got a question for u

[vale pine]

sure, just ask

[lilac stag]

5 euro

[crystal bone]

inside tfd, do u try to squeeze in 2 sectec's? or do u go the safe route of 2nd sectec in 2nd dance? i feel like i have a hard time fitting both in tfd like sims do supposedly

[lilac stag]

Get a shaman

[swift tinsel]

I'm tryna pace out my grinding so I don't get annoyed with everything sooner

[lilac stag]

I genuinely enjoy delves so it was fun

[swift tinsel]

how's the tuning from 8-11?

[vale pine]

perfectly fine to use secret in the first dance

if you get it ready again

[swift tinsel]

been hearing mixed reports from guildies

[lilac stag]

it seemed fine

[vale pine]

you just want to get superacharger on it

[lilac stag]

There’s some oh shit moments

Since you have no curios

use defensives. and you should be fine

[swift tinsel]

plus no Brann levels yet right

still locked to 80 or whatever his s2 cap was

[lilac stag]

You’re at 80 and just slowly getting xp

[crystal bone]

but there is that risk of the 2nd sectec landing outside of dance, which would be very bad

[swift tinsel]

ah

[crystal bone]

i need to practice it more but the flow when chaining dances with tfd seems more difficult to me than the normal chain dances with weaponmaster

[vale pine]

you can dance back to back to avoid it

[crystal bone]

hmm so the first global in the 2nd dance would be a sectec?

or would u still try to fit a backstab in

wait, i mean sectec into dance lol

i need to hit the dummy more i think lol

is weaponmaster still better than tfd after ~5min?

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[void hound]

planned execution is better than rotten?

wild

[solemn creek]

do we want thistle tea to activate when we enter dance.. or after using shadowblade?

[void hound]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[void hound]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[hazy breach]

Macro it with dance

[solemn creek]

so in the opener. and whenever we do double dance if possible,. we would use 2 tea

correct?

[hazy breach]

Yes

No need to think about it in the slightest

Just macro and forget about it

[solemn creek]

also.. zac asked about earlier, but i didnt quite understand... for what reason we wanna do no finisher except maintenance 10 sec before 90 sec window? (beside keeping coup for buff of course)

is it to be sure to be at max cp? and energy going in

[hazy breach]

Shadow techniques

[solemn creek]

oh..

ya of course

forgot about that

thx hahaha

[crystal bone]

banking more CP for more finishers during dance

[short radish]

:< i dont like not taking inev

[hardy raptor]

Fimbul the goat

[shadow lance]

I'm so excited to go back to sub

Then go back sin cuz progress done and struggling big AoE damages 💔

[hardy raptor]

I haven't even check anything at all for this patch, is sin looking to be the stronger?

[jade urchin]

do we actively avoid tea from auto proccing or is it whatever

[bright elk]

are we more consistent with the new tierset? I hated the RNG of losing the 8 stacks before using cds

[shadow lance]

@leaden prairie

[hardy raptor]

🤷

Ill play sub regardless was just curious

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[shadow lance]

Sure

He just told me 2 days ago Sin was gonna be the best dps spec

But I didn't check ptr so idk

[slate lantern]

Outlaw 🤝 Sub

Playing our specs no matter what Assa is doing

[swift tinsel]

even more rng this season lfg

[sand flax]

Does anyone know if we have to do the quests campaign 3/5 on all characters ? Or if 1 character is done, we can skip and get the cloak ?

[wheat lake]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[slate lantern]

there should be a skip but some were having some bugs with it, not entirely sure when it unlocsks

[brazen onyx]

i have a heroic 671 dagger in offhand and i got a dagger drop 668 1/8 veteran. Should i fully upgrade it to 691 and equip it ? It cost only weather crest and valor.

[swift tinsel]

if its an upgrade

weathered and carved crests are essentially throwaways

[shadow lance]

I would upgrade

[haughty mural]

Main hand ilvl >

[shadow lance]

Just not wasting runed and gilded

[swift tinsel]

yeah they kinda throw the two lower crests and valorstones at you

others not so much

[tepid trellis]

im quite good at this m0 thing

[shadow lance]

Damn

[short radish]

[keen dome]

Damn, loot exists for people??

[leaden prairie]

Ye for m+ sure

Why you pinging me cuh

[steel zinc]

Fml

Will go m0 later in the week gotta see if I still have the German debuff

[swift tinsel]

managed 2 haste pieces and boots so far, only done dawn/priory/floodgate so far

lily is an upgrade over my hero hoc lol

[steel zinc]

Hero hoc is pretty bad ngl

So everything should be an upgrade

[lilac stag]

Thank gods it’s an assa tier.

[swift tinsel]

yeah honestly probs just going sin for dungeons and blasting lol

too snoozy in raid for me tho

[lilac stag]

It could be worse. I’ve gotten 3 belts.

[swift tinsel]

yeesh

[lilac stag]

One was cloth

[swift tinsel]

lmao warband trolled

did manage a mail chest for the shaman too

[lilac stag]

I have to get alts in zone

[shadow lance]

So you can explain to him + I wanted to tell "Je t'aime"

[swift tinsel]

that's my plan for the weekened. Get rogue stuff done on thursday and start the shaman grind

maybe dk too

one of our ww's who is swapping to fdk this season was in disc talking about not wanting to have six pillar macros so he's likely swapping back lol

[tepid trellis]

another one to the collection

[formal flame]

is there something that kicks us out of stealth?

[alpine wraith]

rofl

[swift tinsel]

shadowstrike

[formal flame]

like is it a bug?

[swift tinsel]

you don't have an intellect dagger do you

[alpine wraith]

are you using the krangled int dagger

[slate lantern]

intellect dagger?

[alpine wraith]

ahaha

[swift tinsel]

the sub braincell is on it today

[formal flame]

oh sh1t one of them is 😄

[brittle plinth]

Stealthi running that blessed spec

[swift tinsel]

lmao solved

[alpine wraith]

caught in 4k

[spice matrix]

bro you doing m0 splits or some shit or are you that lucky

[alpine wraith]

he is made diff

that means it is going to take 40 floodgates to get the neck on hero

getting karma diff

[brittle plinth]

I thought I played a lot last season with 57 mythics ran. I'm slowly learning those are rookie numbers.

[shadow lance]

My tank did 340 M+ runs

This MF is kinda sick

[brittle plinth]

That's wild

No wonder everyone so much better than me haha

[shadow lance]

340 Runs, on the main char

I don't count the alts

But he helped a lot of guildies gearing

But still

[alpine wraith]

i think i did not do more than 150

just getting the gear then dip mode 8 weekly and go

actually maybe i did more because of turbo season

[shadow lance]

170 on the rogue, I stopped the weeklies at 680 ilvl

[tepid trellis]

nah ill get it within 3 runs

[alpine wraith]

i believe

i will just run normal manaforge and get prism then never get the hc one

[swift tinsel]

Imma get hero prism and sigil week 1, one natty and one from vault

[warped zodiac]

Do we break 4 piece when we get new 2pc?

[swift tinsel]

yep

new tier set quite strong

holy shit ?? Kyveza title is Contract Killer __

need

[keen dome]

I really like the title this season, Unbound Hero

The 0.1% M+ title I mean

[chrome palm]

the joke is that this season's title should be resilient hero

[keen dome]

Hah

That would've been cool

[plush roost]

Should have been Cartel hero imo

Resilient hero is funny meme tho

[vestal escarp]

Too good

[vale pine]

nice

only got 1 so far

[wild hornet]

time to do m0

[swift tinsel]

nicu

[vestal escarp]

Uh oh someone depleted drops luck for m+

[remote shuttle]

did someone spoke about a SB new zone bug?

[tepid trellis]

i didn't loot them myself

[remote shuttle]

?

[tepid trellis]

so no i did not

[glossy turtle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[radiant shale]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wild hornet]

wait are we supposed to use thistle tea now

[hearty belfry]

Man secret technique has to be one of the most visually dissapointing spells in the game. I was expecting shadow clones flying all over and instead it's literally a tiny puff of smoke you can't even see unless you're zoomed all the way in

[glossy turtle]

are there new targets counts for when to use bp over evisc?

[swift tinsel]

you can in m+

[swift tinsel]

4 targets/3FW both in and out of blades

easiest just to do 4 targets always tho

[steel jolt]

https://tenor.com/view/mirror-image-gif-22606455

Should be like this

[swift tinsel]

used to have actual clones but they got left in Dragonflight

[carmine portal]

How much you paid for them?

[tepid trellis]

0

[hearty belfry]

Wait really?

Nah I just saw a shadowlands video and it's the same 😭

[hearty belfry]

It's such a cool sounding ability and fits the sub theme perfectly and it has no visuals

I know a lot of people don't care about that and I'm not even looking at my spells most of the time but audio-visual feedback is still so important imo

[steel jolt]

Nah I definitely feel you. Visuals are important

[open fulcrum]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **you can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use shuriken storm to not proc unseen blade before using your 2nd coup.
• Explanation: The tier set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any unseen blade procs between the 2 coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[swift tinsel]

for a bit with the season 3 df set we had actual clones that would spawn

[hearty belfry]

Ah yes but not tied to sectech

I thought they had changed the visual to be worse

[narrow comet]

Question for the class, if I run hero dungeons this week, do I get a shot of next season's tear and vault next week

I'm at PVP only player, so I strictly do not care about item level

[hearty belfry]

We are already in next season

But yes

[narrow comet]

Not the question

It's a dead week you know what I mean

[sly shore]

seems bad ~10s before but that's only 1 finisher

aka a rupture

[hearty belfry]

Then why would you think that you wouldn't get vault?

[narrow comet]

Because if I'm not mistaken hero dungeons give LFR loot

I didn't know if Blizzard had potentially hard-coded it that tier could not be in the loot pool this week for vault

[lilac stag]

They have the animation with kyveza in the delve. Legit clones for sub.

[graceful osprey]

Maybe Kyveza becomes friend and teaches sub rogue how to become super sub rogue and then in 11.2 we become god tier dps

Err 12.0

[swift tinsel]

I'm gonna try for that title asap

[fluid moth]

Kyveza is friend. I am rogue spy for kyveza and I have infiltrated dornogol

[swift tinsel]

really hoping the fight is less cringe than underpin king

[graceful osprey]

What’s the title for 1v1ing Kyvesa?

[swift tinsel]

Contract Killer

[short radish]

Seen the prot warrior cheese?

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'm not doing that

[graceful osprey]

Holy peak rogue RP

[short radish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tavtpSbRbQ0

[crystal bone]

prot warr cheese was already hotfixed

[short radish]

Oh already?

[swift tinsel]

yeah fully expected that

[short radish]

Dam abuse early abuse often

[swift tinsel]

probs seeing rollback

[crystal bone]

friend said he tried to do it 30m ago and was already fixed

[swift tinsel]

Holy bullet hell

that looks like so much fun

[crystal bone]

i fuckin loved that fight man

i wish sub got her visuals

[swift tinsel]

it doesn't look too bad mechanically but I'm sure there's more to it that was skipped bc of the killspeed

looks like the worst part

and even then, just open eyes

[graceful osprey]

12.0, you’ll see

[crystal bone]

[errant slate]

!spreadsheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[round latch]

this sounds so good for a new sub skill

[short radish]

With the amount of damage it does, i can believe it's a sub skill

[round latch]

we gettin' buffed

(by the time the sun runs out of hydrogen to fuse into hellium)

[pale python]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **you can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use shuriken storm to not proc unseen blade before using your 2nd coup.
• Explanation: The tier set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any unseen blade procs between the 2 coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[dry plank]

What means number 1? Sorry I’m stupid

[swift tinsel]

don't cast evisc/bp

[warm depot]

rupture only

if u need to refresh

why tfd now?

[lilac stag]

its better

[warm depot]

did somethign change with the logic/bug on it?

[lilac stag]

and WM is shit

we've been playing TFD the last month

[warm depot]

oh.

lmfao

can you use it in raid now?

[lilac stag]

#subtlety message

any amount of downtime, or pressing of storm makes WM worse. it's a shit talent. that's all there really is to it so you pack the burst in

[warm depot]

👍

[bleak haven]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[hazy breach]

Generally if a fight is <4 minutes tfd better, 4-6 its roughly the same and 6+ wm better

But its a very minor different either way

For keys (or any form of aoe) youd literally never pick wm though, its useless. Tfd is good there

[warm depot]

the vanish macro doesnt work in raid still right

[hazy breach]

It does not

[warm depot]

• its not required in keys anymore?

[hazy breach]

You should run tfd in keys yes

Ive been told the macro doesnt work anymore, but idk

[warm depot]

word

tyty

[void ocean]

whats with the Bundesbank

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[delicate slate]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steep raven]

What did they do to stealth again?

[swift tinsel]

wym

[steep raven]

I'm in stealth animation but not in stealth and my stealth macro doesn't let me go in stealth

[swift tinsel]

the stealth animation thing is a bug from ptr, idk about the other part

what macro

[steep raven]

Is it /cast [nostealth] Stealth part?

[shrewd wren]

i was experiencing the same thing yesterday

[steep raven]

Because if I click stealth button on the bar it works

[swift tinsel]

probs then

[keen dome]

@lilac stag I'm going to push him off the edge

[crystal bone]

purple

[steep raven]

What's the PTR bug? Maybe it actually makes the game think that you're in stealth

[swift tinsel]

you'd creep around in stealth animation without the stealth aura, iirc it didn't enable strike or other stealth abilities

[steep raven]

ffs, I do need that macro...Thanks for the info

[distant canopy]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hasty oasis]

Is there a way to maccro Shadow Dance + Backstab + Thistle Tea ?

Without using 2 teas ?

[vale pine]

!dance

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[vale pine]

there iit is

haha

only took me 3 tries

[hasty oasis]

Thanks you very much 😉

The increase in mastery of the tea is flat, it does not suffer from diminishing returns ?

or it is 19.6% of your current mastery ?

[swift tinsel]

if its just a percent value, no

only mastery stat rating DRs

[hasty oasis]

alright thanks

[stable plume]

So I’ve been practicing Sub in M+ and I want to make sure I’m not doing anything wrong.

1. Is it normal to hit like a wet noodle the next pack after you blow one up?
2. What target amount am I supposed to use fan of knives/black powder?

[swift tinsel]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[swift tinsel]

and 4 targets for bp

[stable plume]

Ok and I’m not rly supposed to used fan of knives over backstab right?

[solar charm]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1402339140078665841/Dark_v2_1.jpg

[hazy breach]

You are

Just not over strike

[hasty oasis]

Even with Nimble Furry ? Wasn't suppose to be 7+ ?

[hasty oasis]

Fan of Knives to build 3+ target

outside of Dance

[stable plume]

Thx! That’s what I was looking for

[stoic flower]

And we don’t BP out of dance, right? At least the guide says to just eviscerate

[jovial bramble]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

BP rules doesnt change with dance or not

[tepid trellis]

did fuu streamline it to just 4 targets perma?

[hazy breach]

Think so

[stoic flower]

Oh sweet so BP at 4+ both in and outside of dance

[clever delta]

we actually can craft 691 daggernow

pog

[stoic flower]

Ty 🙏🏼

[hazy breach]

Note that its 4 find weaknesses

Not 4 targets

Its not a huge difference either way

[odd knoll]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[odd knoll]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[haughty mural]

when does it make sense to use new talents?

with new tier i suppose?

[lethal gale]

is it possible to mess up getting a spark this week if you didnt do the quests correctly in order or something?

[lilac stag]

anything is possible.

It’s blizzard

[swift tinsel]

iirc he said he just kept it at 4 all the time bc its basically indistinguishable from 3 FW

[lilac stag]

Just get the cloak done, do the weekly and the weekly delve

[rapid forum]

ye i have 4 sparks already for example

[lilac stag]

[lethal gale]

[rapid forum]

sorry i took yours

will give em back in 4 weeks

[lethal gale]

getting on the phone with blizz rn to tell them

expect ur acc go bye bye

[rapid forum]

na im chill

they fired everyone except finance/market research department

[patent lichen]

Guys I just crafted a cloak, am I cooked?

[crystal bone]

[rapid forum]

na the leggo cloak is gonna bug out for rogs eventually, you did the smart preparation move

[graceful rock]

The kyveza mechanic isn’t even to bait dashes through the boss….

[swift tinsel]

imma try and snipe brann with them

[manic lantern]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[manic lantern]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wheat edge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[patent lichen]

!cbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.

[abstract skiff]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **you can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use shuriken storm to not proc unseen blade before using your 2nd coup.
• Explanation: The tier set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any unseen blade procs between the 2 coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[proper rune]

Is anyone else walking like they stealthed (whilst unstealthed)

keeps happening

[swift tinsel]

its a bug

[proper rune]

a new one?

[swift tinsel]

yes

[proper rune]

am i slower or is it just my brain

[south kernel]

WAIT am i crazy or do i not have time to use a global before the first shurkien nado hit?

or is the low haste the reason

[hazy breach]

You do not have time no

Haste has no effect on globals for energy specs

[south kernel]

i swear i used ot have time before

[vale pine]

yes, i have the same animation bug

[south kernel]

like back at DF

but thanks for the answer tho my man

[vale pine]

it causes a gcd, so sadly no

but you can use off gcd spells in theory

[south kernel]

ye i was hoping to go 5cp->nado->finisher->nado proc

[vale pine]

we did that in the past when we tornado-dance shortly before first tick

but thats not worth it anymore

[south kernel]

😔

btw its 4 targets to bp generally? or with findweakness?

[vale pine]

general

[south kernel]

DAMN its that much stronger?

[vale pine]

you can use whatever of both is easier for you to track

[south kernel]

aight thanks man

[vale pine]

it seems so yes, but you might use evis or bp more depending on weather you need slightly more prio or aoe

[south kernel]

yea i figured

i guess 4-5 targets are a bit more flexible where u can still evis if u really want prio and at 6+ is a MASSIVE dps loss to the points its probs not worth it

[orchid sand]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[south kernel]

dont know maybe 5 is a massive dps loss too

[vale pine]

it isn't

the biggest diffrence is at around 4 targets

[south kernel]

wait this got me REALLY confused now

[vale pine]

more targets make bp stronger

because it scales per target

[south kernel]

yea so how is the biggest difference around 4 target?

[vale pine]

because its less targets

[south kernel]

wait am i dumb?

let me make sure i understand this properly

ur saying the biggest difference between bp and evis is when its 4 targets?

should the biggest difference be at a bigger target count cos bp scales off of that

[vale pine]

oh yes, i mean within the 3-5 target count

where things are more variable

big pulls you will want to use bp ofc

[alpine wraith]

what fuu means is at 4 targets the diff in prio between bp and evis is highest

but yea basically bp does a lot of dmg

[south kernel]

OH u mean the biggest difference in decision making not in raw dps output

[vale pine]

yes

[south kernel]

all this time i thought u mean the difference in dps was the highest

and i was about to go play assa cos of how confused i was

[vale pine]

like you can also use evis even on big pulls

[alpine wraith]

and dont worry about prio taht much we are ripping lots of coups

[vale pine]

and let me check quick

[alpine wraith]

and those do a lot of dmg too

to main target

[vale pine]

e.g. on 5 targets

[south kernel]

cant wait to munch on unseen blade procs once i get tier set

[vale pine]

your overall damage loss isn't that significant for a ~10-12% gain in prio damage

[south kernel]

yea i see what u mean now

guess it'll be giga dependant on the comp and the pull

[vale pine]

funny thing too

if you do pure single target

it would be not too far of from prio

sub funnel rly took a nosedive

blizz gifted that niche to assassination without hesitation

[alpine wraith]

yea DS was meant to be the prio god but they just decided to tune it super badly

and also makie our things not work well with it

[vale pine]

playing DB it migthe be a bit higher

you can swap it in instead of shadowcraft in more aoe heavy dungeons

[alpine wraith]

yea DB DS might be highest prio just because ruptures singular focus onto main target

and you spam bp

and dont use evis at all

[vale pine]

don't think we will play DS

^^

[south kernel]

that sounds like a horrible day

[alpine wraith]

i mean highest prio does not mean it does dmg

remember sub in bfa

[south kernel]

lowkey just doing st rotation on a mob might do more prio damage that whatever u cook with DS

[alpine wraith]

very likely LUL

coup does a lot of dmg

[south kernel]

u know what does more damage than coup?

2 COUPS

and munching on procs

[alpine wraith]

getting 2 coups in a row is kinda fun

[south kernel]

god i love muncing procs

[steady solar]

Just watched your video today hachadino solid work ty for posting

[alpine wraith]

thx man took a while

[random cairn]

You know what is also fun? Tormenta de arena = Sandstorm

[alpine wraith]

Drude sandstorm

i see what they did

[random cairn]

is this new?

[alpine wraith]

some kids might not even be alive from when that meme came alive

[south kernel]

honestly the darude reference is golden

[south kernel]

that just made me feel so fucking old man

[stiff stirrup]

!fufu

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

man I wish DS wasn't tuned and designed like shit so we could have a funnel tree

[vale pine]

even then, we don't have things like mastery scaling hero talents, unlike assassiantion

So it would need to be tuned significantly higher

[swift tinsel]

yeah they'd have to significantly retool how the hero tree works with our kit

[vale pine]

I am honest, i would just throw Each spec a hero tree

and design 3 more specific to each of them

assassiantion - deathstalker
outlaw - fatebound
sub - trickster
and go from there

[swift tinsel]

as much as I would like having more hero trees per spec, I do not trust blizz to maintain that

[vale pine]

i mean, they have big issues maintaining the baseline

which... leads to some of the problems

[swift tinsel]

yeah that's definitely a big part of my apprehension

but conceptually

[vale pine]

but also, its not that obviouse

[swift tinsel]

you could have a single target tree, cleave/aoe tree, then damage niche like funnel/prio/execute

which would be super neat

but after seeing balancing of just three trees for a class, I do not have faith

on top of like you said, bad baseline maintenance

[vale pine]

I think they ideally have a system in between

the current one and the legion one

where you have some fluff for all those who love it

[halcyon ridge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any Unseen Blade procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

(fluff as in placebo talents with low impact)

[swift tinsel]

like 2/3 our current tree

[vale pine]

but a more refined baseline with bigger impact choices

yes

[swift tinsel]

by legion one you mean more condensed talents with the rows of 3? or how do you mean

[vale pine]

the system of legion was good in theory

the problem was...

well it was poorly maintained, there is a certain pattern ^^

like in theory having defined tiers and 3 choices gives a lot of agency

all 3 choices can have high impact

so you can do playstyle defining chanegs

however, it was for simplicity reason maintained diffrently

many specs/classes had very similar talents -- so there was not rly much choice

one of the row was most of the time passive, so newer players always know this position is the easy mode

[regal ingot]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any Unseen Blade procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

and there was still a lack of inovation/risk in many trees so many choices ended up just... boring

it also heavily came down to who designed it

e.g. the mid legion rework was insane for subtelty

i explain what i mean if there is interesst

[ember mural]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[fluid fiber]

Wait, I was away for quite a time and had no info about new season. We play with thistle tea now? do we play around it or idk? and no cold blood anymore? and we play tornado again aswell? 😄

[chrome palm]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[chrome palm]

just use this and dont think about it ever

[fluid fiber]

oh no...and we play backstab again

in dance

[chrome palm]

old tech brother

[vale pine]

just macro it to dance and forget about it

[fluid fiber]

kk thx

[vale pine]

^ this row was the best change they did

basically what it created was a choice between:

• Strong shadow dance, but lower amount of shadow dances
• A neutral option
• Weak Shadow Dances, but a high amount

this lead to an entire xpac after where this choice actually worked out

[swift tinsel]

yeah that kind of design choice resonates with me way more than having 30-40 nodes

[vale pine]

you could switch between 25% dance uptime and ~40% with one talent and both played at diffrent paces

[swift tinsel]

right, and to me that's a way more interesting gameplay choice to get to make

[vale pine]

yes

[bright sundial]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using (non maintenance) finishers ~10 seconds before your 90 sec cooldowns come up.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades, if you get the 4 set buff, you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the unseen blades stacks, so any Unseen Blade procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[vale pine]

well thats the catch

it was complicated to balance out

because you can easy attack a power system to shadow dance triggers

and its like the boring/default you would do

so if you do that every time

[bright sundial]

question gang why do we talent into tornado and pf now they got buffed?

[vale pine]

you suddenly end up nullifying the choice in talents

and you will always need to take more dances

this is basically what happened when rogue devs changed

and is what leads to the complete loss of this choice over time

[lethal thorn]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

(btw. i am not saying thats good or bad, design is a extremely opinionated topic)

[swift tinsel]

yeah its just kind of a weird design space to navigate

if there was more of a middle ground between the MoP-style and DF style trees where it's maybe 2/3 or half the size

[vale pine]

speculation, but i think the base idea was to make maintainance easier

[swift tinsel]

but some of the foundational things you brought up still exist so it'll end up kinda bandaid-ing like usual

[clever delta]

got haste mastery ring for assa and this one for sub 😄

[vale pine]

^ which is why i was so surprised about the DF talent rework

because, it turns out it seems extremely hard to maintain and spend dev time efficiently on it

[swift tinsel]

yeah they def didn't do themselves any favors in making maintenance easier by ballooning out the talent system

[vale pine]

and it leads to very much a situation where there can be HUGE diffrences in deisgn and tuning

[swift tinsel]

and we're unfortunately acutely aware of that disparity since we can look at the difference between sub and sin in those regards

[vale pine]

i don't know, i think it depends who you ask

and thats what plays well into the narrative

[swift tinsel]

I mean if you look at design, it's very clear one is significantly ahead of the other in terms of talent design

[vale pine]

even if its done in a poorly balanced way, you need to spend a lot of time to even find these diffrences

e.g. If you ask someone who mainly plays assassination or outlaw, they will have a very diffrent view ont he problem

and many things are also tuning dependent

If you would want to have a reasonable discussion

[swift tinsel]

but you can also zoom out and look at them objectively and see the relative issues between a tree that can make multiple meaningful choices and the other two

[mystic bough]

I've never played with thistle after the change of it drinking it automatically if you're below 30 energy, do we just macro it to shadow dance and ignore or?