subtlety

[lucid jackal]

Oab adds and stix adds and even Rik adds were issue for more people than top50

[hollow spear]

If I tried to stick to boss on Araz, I'd be benched before I could blink

Calling it now

[hazy breach]

Well ours also doesnt include stacking coups before which is +1m or so

[astral axle]

well yeah rogues don't have blink

[hollow spear]

It doesn't include prism optimisation for amps either

[hazy breach]

And I havent looked at 18 stack prism things either

Since its been 15 for most of ptr

[hollow spear]

Gotta chill it with the fatebound propaganda

[hazy breach]

But thats applicable to fatebound too ofc

[lilac stag]

either or options are nice. Just shit assa got another sub thing with 90 seconds.

speculation is fun

[hazy breach]

Idk i think prism stonks are gonna go way up after like week 2 when people realize not every fight is 5 minutes with BL on pull

[lilac stag]

yup

[hazy breach]

Like sims are

[bleak night]

as long as i get mine before everyone starts yapping for it themselves

[steel jolt]

any prismmaxxers

[lilac stag]

looking at prog vs parse logs I think will be interesting as well

[long sun]

yo prism + forgeweaver arizz = damage amp = power

[hollow spear]

The good thing is that most guilds stick to 5min patchwerk sims

[hazy breach]

Idk im not vibing with the double on-use

I dont see the value

[hollow spear]

Not sure if he meant the boss or the trinket

[lilac stag]

my cope is badge + prizmism

Menty I’d like to not sit on 2 flags no trinket amp

[hazy breach]

Oh ye maybe he meant the boss actually

[lilac stag]

Even though it likely means very little

[hazy breach]

So much yapping about the trinket ive forgetten about the boss named the same thing

[long sun]

oh yai meant just using it on the boss

[hazy breach]

[astral axle]

i'm so prism maxxed that all my cross-sections parallel to my bases are translations of those bases

[long sun]

or like nexus king but that fight only has one damage amp

[lilac stag]

little yappers. Who has time for boss talk

[warm marlin]

this guy's is so low rez wtf

[hazy breach]

Ye but it also has add platforms

Big pad stonks

[lilac stag]

Is that the p3 add platforms

[hazy breach]

Ye but honestly that just makes it better

[long sun]

yo also why is it when i try to input the apl from fuu's sheet into raidbots my computer blows up

[long sun]

nah we're ethical

[alpine wraith]

did you try expert

in mimiron

[long sun]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/quick

im here

[alpine wraith]

yp quick wont work

[hazy breach]

Yeyeye but youre doing it to kill the prio mob on the platform

[lilac stag]

Advanced

[bleak night]

real i cant help it if i accidentally press a bp or two

[hazy breach]

You got some of the non apl stuff in there

[lilac stag]

Get those danse stacks mate

[hazy breach]

But im fairly sure the default apl is updated

So you shouldnt need the custom ones

[long sun]

if i go advanced there aren't options for cusom apl and expert mode

[tulip gorge]

Has the rule for BP changed for trickster?

[long sun]

o ok W

tyty

[hollow spear]

BP has been disabled to stop people from being unethical

[north schooner]

you just drop them all in the same textbox in advanced mode

[long sun]

ah ok that did work i see the light now

[hazy breach]

Didnt watch it live but W on max stream btw

[long sun]

ty i was in yap mode

[tulip gorge]

Ethical rogue gigachad

[grand wyvern]

could have gone dobby given everyone elses ranking 🤣

[steel zinc]

you just copy paste his profile with the custom edit notes

oh eleem answered already

[steel zinc]

3 blades 5 + fw is up

[long sun]

also hold up the ST sim has us playing first dance? that is some crazy mode shit

[hazy breach]

Wm stinky

But technically on like 6+ min fights you can swap

[lucid jackal]

Wm and sf are both very mid talents

[tulip gorge]

What does this mean

[lucid jackal]

So swapping for improved storm and tfd isn't a big loss

[cerulean beacon]

bro is the riddler

[north schooner]

SF isn't even mid, it's straight up trash

[long sun]

ya i guess thats tru

[hazy breach]

SF isnt outside simc margin, id say thats worse than mid

[steel zinc]

3 during cds you bp and 5 outside cds if fw is up on those targets

[grand wyvern]

i hate first dance cause the second sec tec often lands between the 2 dances so I have to minimize the gap, which is difficult using the bs macro

[tulip gorge]

Damn black powder is this strong???

[steel zinc]

in 11.2

Talking 11.2 here

[hazy breach]

You can hold onto it if you went, its worse but better than having the sectech be outside dance if you feel like youre often screwing it up

[tulip gorge]

Yes but still it’s insane

[steel zinc]

idk anymore for 11.1 because cba its over since 2 months

[tulip gorge]

So nimble flurry is just low target cleave

Or if you want to be ethical

[steel zinc]

and prio

[hazy breach]

Nimble is for coup and strikes

[steel zinc]

yeah you can just do evis for more funnel

yeah

in aoe you go dance etc. strike--->sectech---> and then Coup > BP

[lucid jackal]

Tru

[steel zinc]

and always strike just use storm to apply find weakness with the rotten imo.

[long sun]

ahhh ok and we drop replicating shadows for improved shuriken storm bc now we use shuriken storm to avoid unseen blade munching during double coup

[tulip gorge]

So we still sectech as first finisher during dance

[steel zinc]

rotten is huge quality of live for m+ imo

[steel zinc]

yes

[hazy breach]

Perforated veins is atleast outside margin, but just by a bit

[steel zinc]

yes and bs if you start with 0 cp

[north schooner]

common PV W

[hazy breach]

Well no replicating is in the middle, imp storm is up top

[frail kindle]

wait do our capstones suck so much we dont even take a point in rotten or finality anymore?

[tulip gorge]

Can’t wait to have a look at the updated guides

[grand wyvern]

would adding a /cast Shadow Dance to the blades macro to cover imprecise timings have bad consequences?

[long sun]

oh ya nvm i made that up

[hazy breach]

You need to drop replicating to reach planned execution as it effectively requires two points (imp sht is quite useless)

[hazy breach]

Youre not casting blades at that time though? Im confused

[grand wyvern]

nvm i am cooked

[hazy breach]

But ye im not sure about m+ talents

The rotten storm thing seems quite bad now with tier so

[grand wyvern]

i meant to sec tec, but it would create a problem when i want to symbol sectec without using a dance charge

[hazy breach]

And in practice you often end up eviscerating quite a bit anyway because youre often fighting prio mobs but idk

[steel zinc]

wdym?

With current tier or new?

[hazy breach]

New

[steel zinc]

Its really good idk. Casual uses it too

[hazy breach]

Ye but sim hates it as you lose unseen blades in dance

And If you proc 2p your strike+unseen2x does more than BP anyway

[steel zinc]

yeah the sim also doesnt play first dance

[hazy breach]

On the 8 targets you hit that is

[steel zinc]

yeah but also sim doesnt account for bp having more range.

[warm marlin]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cGmEkzDZF1MXzYYr5HD5Vu
consider your prism maxxed

[steel zinc]

Or does nimble have that?

[swift tinsel]

Pledging to go 0 BP in m+ all season

[warm marlin]

its -6k with this apl but gains 10k for some reason with old vanish opener

dont ask me why

[swift tinsel]

Secret sauce

Can’t explain it or it isn’t secret

[hazy breach]

You should try doing it with copies so its easier to compare

[warm marlin]

i was lazy

[hazy breach]

But either way apl on phone is doomed

[steel zinc]

What is with more targets?

[hazy breach]

Not sure what you mean

[steel zinc]

With more targets?

Like bigger pulls just bp should pull more ahead or not?

[bleak night]

[hazy breach]

What

I wasnt saying to not use BP

[swift tinsel]

Gotta have UB’s that nimble grant a stack per target hit

[hazy breach]

I said to not storm during dance for rotten

[steel zinc]

thats why you strike and not perma storm

[swift tinsel]

Really see stack waste there

[steel zinc]

You can also just do it before dance

thats what I do

[swift tinsel]

It doesn’t function like that though otherwise trickster would be insane

If UB granted max stacks each time lol

[warm marlin]

barely any difference

[hazy breach]

Could probably delay pot for it too

[steel zinc]

you strike and get ub stacks and if you reach a coup u use it often early on and if you have lots of targets with fw still up you bp

[alpine wraith]

could do on longer fights

[hazy breach]

But ye makes sense that its similar

[warm marlin]

that is using prism on pull with blades (to avoid overcap), with 3min blades, then using it if boss will die before last blades (and last 20s)

[alpine wraith]

delay 5 min+ pot

to a 3 min prism

[swift tinsel]

I’m literally saying it would be funny if UB nimble hits granted a stack of EB per target hit

[hazy breach]

Ye prism got value thats hard to sim for sure

Glad they made it cap at 18

[steel zinc]

Thats good or? Now actually a real 90 sec trinket (except pull)

[warm marlin]

being able to hold it for 3mins makes it a lot better in real content

[swift tinsel]

It means no weird shenanigans

[hazy breach]

You can use it as 90s, and you probably will by default

But sometimes you can hold it for 18 stacks instead

[steel zinc]

also fight dependend I guess

[swift tinsel]

Bc of its stack time being 2:30 before

[steel zinc]

yeah

[warm marlin]

but any time where your 90s flag is less value or your 180s flag is more value (adds, dmg amp, mechanics, etc) prism goes brazy

[steel zinc]

Imo Prism also undersims for assa. Should beat ritual

[hazy breach]

Double it and give it to the next guy

[steel zinc]

fatebound

[hazy breach]

Well assa cares about BL

So not having a trinket on pull with BL sucks more

Than it does for sub

[steel zinc]

true yes but also I think the value of bosses where you lust later the prism gains much more

[hazy breach]

Ofc

[steel zinc]

there are some bosses where you lust during dmg amp and last and 2nd last boss have dmg amps

[warm marlin]

is about equal assuming you don't lose a cast of pot, 1% loss if you do

[hollow spear]

What if you lust at 4min for the 2min classes

[warm marlin]

would expect otherwise but maybe BL does change it

[hollow spear]

Fatebound in shambles

[steel zinc]

tell that the boss

[hazy breach]

Sure but thats not undersimming

[steel zinc]

Forge boss has its first dmg amp at ~1:35 and 2nd mythic boss roughly 2:30

[hollow spear]

Are you really holding lust on araz

Doubt

[steel zinc]

I would argue depending on fight timings that sub and assa fatebound will be insane during dmg amps

[steel zinc]

no but still the boss has a weird timing for its dmg amp

Just saying rogue is really good for those dmg amps

[hollow spear]

Yeah

And on sub you can move your dances into amp windows

If your flag doesn't align

[hazy breach]

Thats why im gonna play the rogue spec that also takes 20% less damage

[steel zinc]

[hollow spear]

Fatebound is even squishier than ds

[steel zinc]

Sadly they fixed the endboss from 200% dmg amp phase to 100%

If that was 200% you would stack rogues

Like that was clear

doesnt matter if lust or w/e

[bleak night]

me when i have a chance to reduce damage taken by 10% instead of just reducing damage taken

[hazy breach]

Beta 40% chance to take 10% less damage VS gigachad always take 10% less damage

[steel zinc]

I just play either sub or sin w/e will see.

[hollow spear]

It reduces damage on Mondays with a humidity of 50%+

[steel zinc]

[jade urchin]

are we gonna replace 4set with 2-2 asap or wait for 4 to 4?

[hazy breach]

Asap

New 2p is about as good as old 2+4 together

And new 4p is bonkers

[hollow spear]

Every day I don't have 4p will be misery

[bleak night]

surely sub is like #1 prio for tier right

since they giga nerfed ww tier

[young crypt]

Is there a spreadsheet that shows all the specs rough power gain from tier

[hazy breach]

Dont believe there is one yet no, but those should always be taken with a gain of salt anyway

[lucid jackal]

The fact that subs aoe build is identical to its st build is going to be very beneficial

[grand wyvern]

i don't take responsibility for accidental padding

[bleak night]

i was talking about prio to be given tier set not prio damage

[warm marlin]

padding

[bleak night]

but good to know

[hazy breach]

Doesnt seem like its identical anymore, but theres few differences

So we will still bonk hard in aoe with st build

[swift tinsel]

Probably just competing with dev for tier token if they’re still nutso

Since war and monk are kinda down bad

[maiden oar]

hopefully #1 prism prio too

[bleak night]

celestial tier set was op as fuck for a bit but then they nerfed it by like 50% lmao

[swift tinsel]

Yeah both of our ww switched lmao

[bleak night]

dev tier sets have changed so much idek what they would be

[swift tinsel]

We have a guy that enjoys Aug in raid and only plays dev if he’s bored lol

You see funny things in casual raids

[bleak night]

based

tbf aug in raid genuinely seems interesting

i was talking with someone a bit about how they choose who to buff and when

and like yeah some classes are better than others but then you realize you're in a wr 1000 guild and people have different skill levels

[swift tinsel]

Ye he uses an MRT note with timestamps and spotlight frames in Cell

Which that feature is goated for Aug

[bleak night]

so a lot can actually go into it

would be fun if they had transmog

[grand wyvern]

only thinking of optimizing something like this gives me chills

[swift tinsel]

Yeah it’s perfect for people who love obsessing over logs

And seeing who is blasting when every 30sec

[grand wyvern]

it also changes per encounter and people performance will have variance, its a nightmare

[hazy breach]

The orbs spawned from the antenna trinket looks like the transmitter orbs

[chrome palm]

Do you notice that when you chase the orbs they’ll move away from you

[bleak night]

[sullen hare]

Oh God is it a fixed tether?

[chrome palm]

If you’re chasing a pack while tank is gathering and the orb spawns behind you, I’ve had them move away from me a little bit when I change direction to collect them

[carmine portal]

Us worrying about that whilsy Brewmaster monks loving it because they save the proc for popping an expel harm for their 70% healing passive

[alpine wraith]

i already did a short about that it is going to be VERY funny in raid

in the dummies already there were like 4 people

and it seemed a disco

because even some healers/tanks want it dont forget so many dps

[sullen hare]

Is its pathing as finicky as the obelisk out of arakara?

Because that trinket finally worked like a month into the expansion but you could tell it was made for ranged

[swift tinsel]

seeing other peoples' orbs is gonna be a fun time lol

[honest basin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[willow fulcrum]

Who would you say is a good streamer/youtuber to watch to get a guide for sub rotation for next patch?

[chrome palm]

Hachadino and Shindig will probably make videos

[bleak night]

i will too so keep an eye out

[alpine wraith]

yea mine will be up tomorrow

i already have the opener clipped on twitch if you want a sneak peak but not up on yt yet

[summer lynx]

Are there any sheets for all the sims of the classes currently?

[lilac stag]

Yes. No not sharing. They’re all since effective is behind due to state of ptr.

roll warlock if you want meta.

[random mason]

Or mage

[bleak night]

the answer is always mage

"what spec will be good in raid?" mage

"what m+ meta tell me" mage

"what-" just play mage

[lilac stag]

sub I think has secured lowest ST sim though.

[swift tinsel]

supposedly enhance is below it

[lilac stag]

Totemic doesn’t have tier yet

[swift tinsel]

but they might be equal if not considering pre-pull shenanigans

[lilac stag]

The fact that sub is 1.5 milly behind lock is comical

[bleak night]

warlock only a tier btw

👍 🏄‍♂️ 🏄‍♀️

[lilac stag]

[hoary sun]

Send buffs

[chrome palm]

PLEASE send buffs 📈 📈 📈

😱

[bleak night]

guys

i just realised the evis icon is a guy getting stabbed in the neck not someone getting stabbed in the ankle

[graceful crown]

[short radish]

how did you see this and think of an ankle?!??!?!

[bleak night]

the face is the leg

and the shoulder is a sock

and he was getting stabbed in the ankle

[short radish]

and the ankle has a mustache?

[bleak night]

yours doesnt?

[short radish]

nah i can't grow facial hair

or ankle hair

[bleak night]

i never looked very closely ok

[short radish]

tbh i can kinda see it

if you ignore the hair

at first glance

it does look kinda like a slipper

[worldly remnant]

If you ignore all the details and squint, sure

[shell willow]

Lol

[bleak night]

i didnt really play sub before this season

ok

ive only ever glanced at it

[native zodiac]

that comment actually just ruined the way i look at evis

why does it look like a leg

[bleak night]

[worldly remnant]

You guys are fried if that looks like a leg

[hybrid prism]

how is fire mage?

[steel jolt]

why are you asking the rogue discord that

[chrome palm]

kinda like sub but less burst, ranged, more util, blue instead of yellow, more magic focused

[bleak night]

i mean i wouldnt want to go to the mage discord either

[hybrid prism]

because im a sub rogue main but i had been having fun playing fire. Then I went on vacation for two weeks and followed zero news or anything. So i was curious!

I am not part of the mage discord and i guarantee yall are cooler than them and would be honest.

[chrome palm]

it is like the worst mage atm

[bleak night]

if i were a mage player i'd play arcane

[hybrid prism]

well fire is and always will be the coolest spec. Same with sub. That's why I play both!

[bleak night]

im just too slow to play fire

same reason i stopped playing outlaw

cant press spacebar fast enough anymore

[bright briar]

Yeah bro arcane is on fire 🔥 for next season

[short radish]

yeah if you go there you get an @everyone ping

[tame terrace]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[dusk stone]

whats the state of sub rogue going into the new patch? the patch notes make it look good

[astral axle]

lookin pog

[chrome palm]

better than last time

[wary plover]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wild hornet]

Sub rogue always pog

Btw when does next season start? Was it on this Wednesday or next one (m0 dungeons not official season start)

[plush roost]

This week

[crystal sparrow]

what will you craft first as sub?

[vale osprey]

Most likely starts with a d and ends with agger

[steady dune]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[rocky ocean]

int dagger obviously

[runic trail]

Crafting the stiletto

[stiff stirrup]

is crit a bit more favored if we are playing tea over CB?

[steel zinc]

Doesn't matter really

[blissful yacht]

Is it worth waiting with Coup for dazed debuff? Or should i press it anyways?

[steel zinc]

This week. For NA this is today last S2 day. EU tomorrow

[steel zinc]

Ideally yes. In practice w/e

[jaunty heath]

What does sin rogue stand for is that sub rogue with a specific build or just an abbreviation for assa?

[bleak night]

assassination

[steel zinc]

Sorry wdym by stand for?

[jaunty heath]

When someone says sin rogue is doing 5.5mil dps on ST what does the sin refer to?

[slate marlin]

assa

[willow bobcat]

Sin = Assassination

[vale pine]

its just short for the spec assassiantion, similar to sub for subtlety

[jaunty heath]

thank you, I played rogue for 3 years and didnt knew what sin stood for

always refered as assa

[dreamy badger]

Its ass rogue, you are correct

[edgy reef]

Quick question to some sub gentlemen, my rogue is going from outlaw to sub (to him he just plays what is simming highest and thats his take anyway). Does sub need restealth?

[vale pine]

you are in for a surprise^^

[edgy reef]

oh no

[vale pine]

if you play the first dance

which you should, because its good

you not only need a restealth

but you need to have downtime after

technically stealth is not as important but being out of combat for 6 seconds

[edgy reef]

rough

wanted to chain more bc of tank trinket

unlucky

[vale pine]

...

chaining is fine

[edgy reef]

why do you need downtime?

[vale pine]

the talent was deisgned to require it

[edgy reef]

thats dumb

hella dumb

[vale pine]

well it was the latest talent and change blizz did to the spec

so basically the "state of the art" in terms of design

[keen dome]

How many times does it need to 'proc' to be stronger than the other choices, Fuu?

[vale pine]

not much

weaponmaster is shit

[keen dome]

You can chain and pull, make the rogue adjust.

[vale pine]

yes

its a good point

even tho you can't proc it much, its still worth picking

[keen dome]

They'll get natural downtime in the key to make the talent worth it regardless. Pull EVERYTHING. ALL THE TIME.

[vale pine]

and chain pulling is not a problem

[bleak night]

if your rogue actually just plays whatever sims highest he deserves to be chain pulled on

[keen dome]

Trash MAXIMIZE

[edgy reef]

He usually does adjust and does fine, im just asking for my personal knowledge.

[steel zinc]

Nope it's a good talent and fixes on ptr

[vale pine]

you basically don't rly optimize aroud it

[edgy reef]

One of the few people who play outlaw and dont yell at me for not letting them restealth on chain

[keen dome]

Sub doesn't really need restealths. Just know that we work on CD's, so there'll be pulls where he has nothing and pulls where he kills everything.

[edgy reef]

to my tank brain it sounds dumb but im a tank

[vale pine]

^

[edgy reef]

[vale pine]

i mean it is stupid in design

but you don't plan around it

[steel zinc]

Your rogue just can vanish when mobs are at like 5%

[vale pine]

but take it if you can get it without adjustments

so its more a "it could be better"

this is diffrent to assassiantion/outlaw

[edgy reef]

Guess its less for me to think about

[keen dome]

It's a funny situation where a pretty weird, medicore talent is the best choice because everything else is so dire haha

[edgy reef]

[vale pine]

both have direct increases in stealth

[keen dome]

Don't pull small if you can help it. Sub likes big boys

[vale pine]

funnily enough

even on them, doing chain pulls makes more sense

[steel zinc]

https://youtu.be/QuMEP3Qs9XM?si=81LRM_zT17TfJiSU

This is how it works

[keen dome]

it is very funny to me that the spec built around stealth abilities is the spec that relies on stealth the least

[edgy reef]

ive been told we need to pull big and often to time our high keys

and i need to get back into prot paladin prison because melee comp got nerfed

[vale pine]

i think we discussed it in the past

but its basically like this

[bleak night]

its funny but it makes sense

due to shadow dance

[keen dome]

Oh, absolutely

It's just funny

[edgy reef]

isnt assa the worst stealth spec

and its designed for dot dmg

[vale pine]

DF changed talent trees significantly, and the dev team had to introduce stealth mechanics to outlaw/assassiantion

as a consequence of moving shadow dance to the general tree

[edgy reef]

[keen dome]

And now they've moved Shadow Dance off the general tree, which is even funnier

[edgy reef]

wasnt shadow dance a cd for sub

specifically

[keen dome]

Yes, it still is. It was, then wasn't, then was.

[vale pine]

subtlety did not change, so it rly was just about making the other 2 specs have abilities interacting with stealth

[edgy reef]

[bleak night]

putting shadow dance in the class tree was definitely a decision

[vale pine]

given that dance was a

option and the dev team did not want to make it a must pick

things got bound to stealth

[keen dome]

Yeah

It was an interesting experiment but one I think failed miserably.

[vale pine]

and stealth fundermentally works the same as dance for these specs

thats not the case for subtlety

just to be clear

[edgy reef]

So they fucked around with an idea, didnt work out tried to bail out and failed?

[keen dome]

Best thing for Sub in key sis pulling big around their cooldowns.

[vale pine]

subtlety had one talent remaining which did require vanish to interact

[bleak night]

i think the only way it couldve worked is if it was required, so they could actually build the specs around them

[vale pine]

but overall, due to how many talents increase things during "dance"

[bleak night]

but instead it was just something that was tacked on that assa/outlaw only used if it happened to sim well

[vale pine]

stealth became fairly irrelevant

[keen dome]

Yeah, agreed.

[vale pine]

because dance has all the power

[edgy reef]

so outlaw does dmg all the time, sub is like a 1 min 30 right?

[vale pine]

90 sec big burst

[keen dome]

1:30 for our big cooldowns (Flagellation + Shadow Blades) and then we have smaller burst in Dance + Symbols every.. now and then 'cos it has CDR (typically twice between each bigger burst)

[vale pine]

then small brust windows between

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

like 1-2 times between

usually

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

so can assume "burst" every 30 sec as a rule of thumbs

[keen dome]

2 - 1 - 2 but in keys it can vary a bit more, I think?

[tribal blade]

quick question, does anyone know if the circles the azerite extractors spawn are baited on players or random drops

[vale pine]

with a BIG burst every 90 sec

[tribal blade]

in motherlode

[keen dome]

I know one set is baited on the tank

[edgy reef]

@vale pine so lets say you got a frost mage and a spriest with you as a sub, me as a tank can i go big pretty much all the time? or do i need some smaller pulls inbetween to breathe?

[keen dome]

So the rest might be randomly baited on players?

[tribal blade]

oh is it? interesting

[vale pine]

@edgy reef
to go even further, blizz later removed dance from the tree but did change vanish to work functionally the same as dance for outlaw/assassination

[keen dome]

Pretty sure the tank always gets some on them

[edgy reef]

as a tank player

[vale pine]

can just go big for sub, thats fine

[edgy reef]

you will always have baits on the tank

[vale pine]

what you can do as a tank

[edgy reef]

rest is random

they are yapping about extractors

[vale pine]

is to try to optimize around 90 sec

so you have big pulls or bosses aroudn that time

[tribal blade]

sub is probably the strongest when every pull is ~8 targets

[vale pine]

but i would not fundermentally change how i pull for it

[edgy reef]

so tank gets one set which is on a "set" timer ish like every tic will always follow the tank. Rest is either more random or just "close" to where people are standing.

[vale pine]

as mentioned even sin/outlaw are similar due to how chainpulling is often more dps than the small increase of restealth

[edgy reef]

Since they do burst dmg, i assume they are pretty much useless inbetween?

[tribal blade]

i think it depends on which build you're playing as sin tbh

[keen dome]

correct

[tribal blade]

getting restealths as bleed is pretty huge

[edgy reef]

is the burst aoe or more "funneled"

[bleak night]

its nice but good chainpulling is still better

but if you're pulling like one mob into the next pack then yeah restealth is better for bleed

[vale pine]

while this is true, having more targets is also very good

[keen dome]

All of Sub's damage is AoE these days up to 8 'cos we have a passive blade flurry (Nimble Flurry)

[edgy reef]

ive been told its uncapped dmg

[tribal blade]

i play bleed for the first half of rookery, and my dmg is astronomically higher and the key goes faster when the tank lets me get restealths

[edgy reef]

[tribal blade]

might just be me

[bleak night]

nimble is not uncapped

[keen dome]

It's capped at 8.

Black Powder only has a soft cap, though. Maybe you are thinking of that?

[bleak night]

and everything else is soft capped

[tribal blade]

nimble is capped and BP is soft capped at 8

so sub has it's full power at 8 targets

[edgy reef]

basicly all i got told was "dont care bout pull size go zug zug"

[tribal blade]

anything above that less strong

[vale pine]

rupture is not capped but it also doees not do big damage

[bleak night]

well zug zug is the best way to pull

[keen dome]

yeah

ALL the mobs. ALL the time

[tribal blade]

so sin is looking to be one of the strongest specs for next season huh

was watching yoda's video

[edgy reef]

its a big discussion apperently

[tribal blade]

he was saying with the changes to how hp/dmg scales in keys now specs that do funnel dmg are extremely valuable

[vale pine]

It lacks damage due to bad single target from what sin players keep telling me

[edgy reef]

he isnt wrong by that statement

[tribal blade]

yeah naturally

[edgy reef]

but im curious about sin dmg falling off if packs live to long

[bleak night]

i refuse to believe any sin player has told you it lacks damage

[edgy reef]

or the ST

[tribal blade]

but sin's ability to have uncapped funnel is apparently strong enough to overlook sin's ST

[edgy reef]

lacks ST damage

[bleak night]

it does have bad st but its funnel is bonkers

so it more than makes up for it in actual gameplay

[edgy reef]

is what ive been told

[tribal blade]

not really

[bleak night]

and it doesnt really fall off if packs live

[tribal blade]

because you can pop a vanish charge

[bleak night]

you just reapply bleeds with vanish

[edgy reef]

hmm

fair

[tribal blade]

it just starts becoming a problem when your tank is chain pulling the whole dungeon

[edgy reef]

idk my rogue is practically speaking wanting to avoid being a poison merchant

so he is either playing sub or outlaw

[tribal blade]

and you're burning vanish charges on chains

next season sin gets to play x2 vanish charges though

[edgy reef]

but tbh i really couldnt care less about what spec ppl play, as long as they perform. Thats why i usually ask to have a understanding of the spec so i know what is "bad to pull"

basicly

so appreciate the input

[tribal blade]

what key levels do you do

[edgy reef]

we did 17s this season and then we kinda stopped since we had vacations and such. With us wanting to push title next season

https://raider.io/characters/eu/tarren-mill/Linodh

[tribal blade]

ah ok so you were getting reasonably high up there

[edgy reef]

but im not playing vdh again

cuz fuck that

[bleak night]

[keen dome]

hero, imo. More sub rogues.

[tribal blade]

well it sounds like next season is gonna be big dps checks with the changes

so what specs people play will be very important

instead of just living the key

[edgy reef]

@hidden jasper fr a hero

[keen dome]

Dozens of us. DOZENS.

[tribal blade]

like having at least 1 funnel spec in a key so the big hp mob dies alongside everything else

[runic trail]

Just a single dozen

[bleak night]

nah we dont forget he started the conversation saying the rogue always plays what sims highest

[tribal blade]

is so valuable for time saving

[bleak night]

no heroism here

[keen dome]

oh, true

[edgy reef]

yeah he did say that

[keen dome]

Well I guess he's playing Outlaw

[edgy reef]

but also swears by the fact that he refuses to play sin

[warm marlin]

Phys comp gang

[edgy reef]

we were going to go phys comp

but then they nerfed fdk and hunter

so now its back to ranged comp

[bleak night]

isnt fdk like 80%

well

frost

[tribal blade]

with how hard required arcane is gonna be

prob a caster season again

[edgy reef]

@bleak night yes and no

[bleak night]

mage required so you bring vdh

[edgy reef]

depends hellla on build

[warm marlin]

Brew/rsham/outlaw/feral/idk warrior or something

[bleak night]

vdh is there so you bring more casters

[edgy reef]

we dont use that word here

vdh banned

[tribal blade]

it's just gonna happen every time 🙂

[edgy reef]

its way to many seasons with vdh so far

[tribal blade]

also can't wait to see how much they mega buff boomy

[warm marlin]

Actually pwarr looks good right

[bleak night]

time is a circle

[edgy reef]

pwarr is good absolutely but they removed spellblock

[runic trail]

I'm just hoping 10 keys are alright to do week 1, I just want to mindlessly slam my 8 keys after work and go back to sleep

[edgy reef]

and pretty much remove any ability to deal with magic damamge and dots

damage*

[tribal blade]

but with the change to dmg scaling in keys it'll be easier to bring paper tanks

[edgy reef]

yeah but like doing high key halls

[warm marlin]

I was watching yoda yesterday play an entire key in battle stance

[bleak night]

we pray for brew meta

[edgy reef]

while being a prot warr

[warm marlin]

Didn’t seem like tanks were afraid at all

[edgy reef]

tis rough

[tribal blade]

what a legend

[edgy reef]

well yoda is yoda

mf does what he pleases

[warm marlin]

Limit testing not pressing defensives on tank busters

[edgy reef]

if you wanna see something dumb

look into Naowh doing keys during df without armor

as pwarr

during season 1 of df

[tribal blade]

sounds like next season is gonna be an even bigger onus on dps being good

[bleak night]

idk if im just misremembered other ptrs but dont the key levels being done already seem kinda high

[edgy reef]

that shit was fucking hella dumb

[tribal blade]

and healers and tanks just chilling

[warm marlin]

Idk apparently the buffs to hp and nerfs to damage have tuned m+ in such a way that tank survivability doesn’t matter

[bleak night]

like this season will be interesting for sure

[edgy reef]

they are

well if there will be a phys comp

it will be with a brew

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly

[edgy reef]

mark my words

[tribal blade]

people are gonna super toxic over dps charts again haha

[edgy reef]

its always a dps fistfight

[bleak night]

one step away from healers playing offspec again

we back

[edgy reef]

@bleak night doubt

even with tanks being strong we need some form of help

[tribal blade]

dude i can't wait for the classic healer playing dps at the start of a key and then zoning out

[warm marlin]

The good old days of rdruid cosplaying as boomie for 90% of a key

[edgy reef]

its not like in df where everyone was super self sustainable

[tribal blade]

start of azure vault vibes

[warm marlin]

All of ataldazar vibes

[tribal blade]

lol true that too

[edgy reef]

this is actually the most healthy state for tanks and healers

working together

atm

that ive seen since i started playing in SL

[edgy reef]

i mean its gonna stand alot on, what works best with the dps

if you play a ranged comp with like a spriest and mage, you dont have many interupts so you wanna play a prot pala

for example

[warm marlin]

well that is always true but more so than most recent seasons apparently you are hard limited by damage

Probably more a tgp meta level thing but not having tank survivability matter means you could play ppal even if it was squishy af

[edgy reef]

it IS squishy atm

the only reason why it works is because resto druid is bonkers

and now they nerfed the dung dmg

if neither happened i was gonna strong arm us playing melee

Well thanks anyway to anyone who gave input and info was appreciated

[sick sand]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stoic flower]

Just read Fuu's guide on WoWhead: are we not throwing in a shuriken storm before sectech during flagg windows anymore for Danse? And probably not worthwhile to play around coup de grace?

[steel zinc]

you dont play around DM talent

[lilac stag]

We haven’t stormed before ST in ages

[stoic flower]

oh shit, I thought during AoE we used to throw in a shuriken before BP

but cool, answers my question

[lilac stag]

In m+ you storm for FW

[stoic flower]

I figured it was similar to how we throw in a backstab before sectech

Ya

[lilac stag]

Backstab is due to premed, so it does help.

[stoic flower]

I remember it was on the AoE part of the guide last season, but he doesn't have the shuriken storm in this iteration

wondering if that changed

Before it said something like "shuriken storm once"

[upper narwhal]

That was with The Rotten talent for guaranteed spreading of Find Weakness

[warm wagon]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stoic flower]

@vale pine also noted under m+ builds that we take Inevitability instead of nado for m+, but the linked builds are nado (and not inevitability)

[lilac stag]

Look at the build. If rotten is dropped storm is useless

[stoic flower]

Ahhh that's it, thank you

that answers it

[lilac stag]

Nado & dslice take with a

[stoic flower]

Cool, so I can just take Inevitability instead of nado?

[vale pine]

ill check in a moment

migth be some weirdness with versioning

or i forgot to change

[stoic flower]

All good 🙂

We appreciate the hard work

But I'd love to not play nado tbh lol!

[lilac stag]

Dslice sims are better for gearing. Current sims have nado higher yet she is not played. Both should be close unless something changed.

Some also just hate the talent and won’t play it. raises hand

[stoic flower]

Amen to that, right there with you

[vale pine]

nado is not that bad tbh

but ye

you can def. spec out of tornado if you don't like it

[weak flame]

do we spam evis now with the shadowblades fix during cds in aoe ?

[vale pine]

e.g. go with replicating shadows

[vale pine]

nothing rly changed

[steel zinc]

how much % loss does the bot say is not playing nado? Instead playing replicating

[weak flame]

we press bp on what target count

5?

[distant bison]

7+ bp 5+ findweakness bp

[vale pine]

4+ it seems

but need to verify the sim changes

[weak flame]

do we really care about findweakness

[keen dome]

I will never care about find weakness. I hope it is upset by this.

[vale pine]

koji just put them in yesterday, so i had a look yesterday

but the results seem a bit weird

because target counts seem lower than you would assume from the change

tho nimble was nerfed down baseline

[weak flame]

yeah but ig in raid except in huge target count we always press evis

[vale pine]

4+ targets/ 3 fw targets is what i have in the latest apl change i tried

[short radish]

find weakness never cares about me and is always leaving. why should I care about it.

[vale pine]

but again, early estimate. Sim might be wrong

[stoic flower]

Gotcha, so Replicating Shadows > Inevitability (mentioned on guide)?

[vale pine]

moment

you can't get inev

because of the tree layout

[stoic flower]

wait you're right. sorry it's 2am here, but you're right lol

[vale pine]

so sec

i need to check the guide too, i might re-do the talent swap part

[vestal escarp]

gm

[vale pine]

maybe i should insert a table or sth

[vestal escarp]

news?

[vale pine]

basically

tornado - baseline
replicating - active 2
wm - active 3

but to help out with the decision

[keen dome]

Out of interest, are the S3 builds on WoWHead yet or is it that coming tomorrow?

[vale pine]

replicating is better in cleave

so 2, 3,4 tatgets

torando is better in aoe

maybe that helps?

wm is always bad (haha)

[stoic flower]

huge actually

thank you

[remote shuttle]

@vale pine can i find somewhere talent for s3 from ptr testing? We stay same rotten repshadows tfd and no finality?

[vale pine]

wrong fuu ^^

[lilac stag]

4 BP buffs later

[vale pine]

its weird

[vale pine]

think people just played the old talent setup, which was rotten

but rotten seems not that good now

[distant bison]

cold blood or tea for m+?

[lilac stag]

I mean weird interactions sums up sub

[lilac stag]

Tea with new tier

[remote shuttle]

What they swap rotten for?

[vale pine]

Sim looks in line with the numbers in game at first view, but maybe i miss something so need to check more.
Is basically why i am not 100% sure about BP threasholds

oh sorry wanted to mention scath with that

[vale pine]

give me a sec

[maiden oar]

we still send storm between coups during blades right

[vale pine]

only with tier set

[maiden oar]

didnt see in rotation section so wanna be sure nothing changed

ok ok

[vale pine]

and only with the tier buff

[maiden oar]

yeah i meant with 4pc shouldve been more specific

[vale pine]

CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM2mBAAAAAgZhxy0YGzMmxYMDzMzMMmtZxYmttZmxMzMGMWmlBAAAgZwAYMbGGYgZRL0iNYA

CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmGzYMGGjZ8AzMzMjxsNMzYbbmZMzMjBjlZbAAAAYGMAGzmhBGYW0CtYDG
```the two variations, wowhead still has the talent calc on the s1 taletns it seems interesstingly enough

the irst one was m+, the 2nd one st raid, with finality -> rotten as option

so kinda like first one just without tfd

[vale pine]

^ @lilac stag this change does currently put the FW target count on 3, which is roughly ~4 targets. But again... might change soon

[warm marlin]

The 68% on live is probably because the main target is taking more from fazed?

[lilac stag]

My guess is the difference isn’t going to be huge

[warm marlin]

I got the correct 72 when I had the main target and off targets with no fw no fazed

#subtlety message

[remote shuttle]

Ty bud gonna get a cup of coffe and have a deep look

[vale pine]

yes, its a bit more complicated because of armor and other things

also there is natual variance in attacks

[remote shuttle]

Seems there Will be lot of ads in new raid maybe m+ One Will be good also in raid?

Also i'm not too Happy to remove rotten for 1/2 finality

[random comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steady dune]

for ST, when does weaponmaster become a dps increase over TFD?

[drowsy pulsar]

is sub looking better than assass for raids?

[vale pine]

on fighs longer than ~5 minutes

melt

[steady dune]

thanks

[vale pine]

rotten is sitll fine, especially without tier

[steady dune]

final day of prog today so im going to just rock it for the time being

[brisk onyx]

u can get rotten and 1 finality at the same time

[hidden jasper]

What can I say, I wanna enjoy my damage amps

[edgy reef]

imagin

[hidden jasper]

No sin rogue propaganda though pls

[hazy breach]

In st its longer than 5-6 minutes, in any form of aoe practically never

Weaponmaster is atrocious on anything aoe related

[tribal blade]

WM interacting with storm when

[steady dune]

WM is a boring talent, so fuck it

TFD is awesome

[edgy reef]

become poison merchant

[hazy breach]

I havent simmed for s3, but in s2 gear and 8 target cleave you would need the fight to be like 15 minutes for it to beat tfd . Obviously both talents are unimpactful at that point and were talking miniscule differences, but still

[hollow spear]

People are going to sell their grandma for a 0.2% overall increase

[remote shuttle]

Which talent you remove in this setup?

[hollow spear]

I might stick to the current m+ build

[brisk onyx]

like this one

[hollow spear]

@hazy breach couldn't we play the rotten as symbols - storm - dance - sectec - strike - bp/coup to not waste a dance global for storm?

Or is that overcooked?

With the rotten fix, this wouldn't be as int as in current season

[remote shuttle]

Oh u drop 8% Shadow damage i don't think that's worth, but i may be wrong

[remote shuttle]

Rotten fix? U mean is not consuming both carges with a shuriken cast?

[brisk onyx]

yes

[hazy breach]

Didnt seem good in sims when i tried it but

[hollow spear]

Even at high target counts, like 15-20?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[hollow spear]

Kind of an enigma to me

Because you're still bping, no?

Is fw overrated or what

[hazy breach]

Not necessarily, unless you have the fws

[hollow spear]

Which you probably won't if you don't have rotten

[hazy breach]

Most of the time you will

Its just the second dance in cds

[hollow spear]

Since I've installed the fw wa

I notice how few fw I have if I go into a fresh pull with cooldowns up

You only have a lot if you spend some time spamming storm in a pack

But you don't really do that with cd up

[chrome palm]

it feels usually pretty fine on ptr

you are super aggro with spamming storm for rupture anyways (usually)

and then storm between coup does very well at refreshing

[keen dome]

I have a question about the M+ build that may be very stupid. We take Nado and PV, and I assume PV is primarily because we want to path to DS, etc? Could you drop Nado for DD, then swap the PV point back into inevi? Why are we dropping Inevis?

[hollow spear]

Maybe I should just take the loss and delay cooldowns for a couple of seconds to get fw up that way

[chrome palm]

depends on the pull you can usually get a few off before hand

but if its first pull on streets then maybe you just go straight into cds

at least with scraft

[hollow spear]

Yeah that's where I feel like rotten might have value

But maybe it's too much feely and too little craft

[chrome palm]

dont like it personally

just seems to be way better options

[hollow spear]

Maybe the finality bug is subconsciously bothering me

Dunno

[lilac stag]

Delaying CDs is usually worse overall when you look at the dungeon as one long boss encounter. Spread rupture for CDR after the fact has typically been the play.

[hollow spear]

What I definitely don't subscribe to is the no shadowcraft tech, that just doesn't hit the spot.

[chrome palm]

but with tornado youre delaying for like 3-4s

[lilac stag]

We get focused too much on one pack imo.

How many sectechs are you losing overall.

[chrome palm]

who knows on ptr because

sometimes you do good damage but dont know if the other person has their monitor turned on

[hollow spear]

I just feel like it's so cooked on bosses

[lilac stag]

pugs gonna pug.

[chrome palm]

seemed ok on bosses really

like as sub youre not gonna be bottom on bosses either way

[lilac stag]

Nado on ST bosses 🤮

[hollow spear]

Nah, but I felt like it was a decent loss

[chrome palm]

i am very excited to try it on live in real groups

for gambit/halls

[vestal escarp]

Ah yes

Gambit and halls

Perfect bleed keys

[lilac stag]

nado still felt like cope for dmg out of cds on ptr

[hollow spear]

Do you usually use nado to spread ruptures or after cd to spam evis or bp?

[chrome palm]

not in cds because you cant proc ub

[hollow spear]

Nah I mean pre cd

[chrome palm]

yeah

p much off cd at least i was

so sometimes for evis

[hollow spear]

Maybe could argue flag into nado to stack, no clue

[lilac stag]

if cds are up you’re wasting CDR using it before hand.

[chrome palm]

not really

[hollow spear]

Eventually there's also a point of too much cdr

[chrome palm]

youre not cdr'ing your blades

[hollow spear]

Your symbols cannot keep up

[chrome palm]

so more ruptures = higher burst

yeah you reach a point where you can even overcap dance

[hollow spear]

Even with pre nado I ran into naked dances

[chrome palm]

but if youre running around in brew i think you could look at rs and veiltouched so you dont need tornado

pick up a bit more st

[keen dome]

Brew, my beloved

[chrome palm]

idk how it works in dungeonslice

but rs feels p good to spread bleeds without tornado

[lilac stag]

How are they naked if you’re swimming in symbols, or do you mean no Sectech?

[chrome palm]

no symbols

[keen dome]

Oh, I get why we're taking PV. urgh. Fuckin' PV..

[hollow spear]

You're not swimming in symbols

You're swimming in dances

[lilac stag]

Read that as too many

I see what you’re saying

[keen dome]

@lilac stag I need your intelligence: why are we dropping Ineviability in the M+ build? I can't figure it out, outside of just routeing?

[vale pine]

tornado isn't too bad, you can use it to spread ruptures or get a bit more cdr

[lilac stag]

Which build? Let me get the doggo out.

[keen dome]

The M+ one on WoWhead:

[chrome palm]

need dark shadow ig

[keen dome]

I assume it's because PV allows us to get the nodes below for a single point versus two (DD / Enivs)

[slate marlin]

no rs

[keen dome]

I assume you can just toss the Nado point into RS

Which is what I will be doing because DEATH TO THE TORNADO

[vale pine]

ye nado -> rs seems reasonable

because nado is more aoe focused

[slate marlin]

i dont mind tornado when out of cds and playing tea

[keen dome]

Yeah I assumed it was just an out-of-cooldowns button

[slate marlin]

ye its to spread ruptures and farm cdr

imagine if it was just aoe dmg and gave no cps

and it was instead an aoe cd

a proper one that is

[keen dome]

Ye, I've typed up pointless thoughts about it working differently before

It would be nice

[slate marlin]

we have to wait and see what 12.0 alpha has for us

[mint swift]

If blizzard doesn’t forget again

[carmine portal]

So what are we ideally spending nado generated CPs on?

[keen dome]

I assume ruptures out of cooldowns

[vale pine]

^

[mint swift]

That hurts to read

[carmine portal]

o7

[keen dome]

Extremely efficent combie generation to toss out rupture for cdr

[carmine portal]

Awesome good to know

I like the idea of the talent, never played it tho

[tight arch]

is it big los to have not dagger in oh?

[carmine portal]

Will give it a SPIN

[keen dome]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[tight arch]

ty

[keen dome]

Sadly we do not get cool oh choices.

[tight arch]

sadge

[mint swift]

Fun isn’t allowed
Spread your ruptures dickhead

• blizzard probably

[keen dome]

I wonder how much blizzard would cost to buy

So I can go ask them to add a posion toggle and also let sub use non-dagger OH's

[lilac stag]

Our talent tree sucks is most likely why.

[keen dome]

Probably!

I think my assumption of it just being efficent routing is right but urgh, URGH. PV!!!!!!

[slate marlin]

It doesnt suck come on, it just has turbo dead talents and almost no finisher talents

[lilac stag]

you could likely try to sim the differences in st, 5T and dslice and see if there’s any other reason

[keen dome]

Yeah, I will.

[lilac stag]

FRICTION in our .2 and .4 dps increase talents.

[slate marlin]

DAMAGE AMPS

what was the 3rd one?

[vestal escarp]

Bozos out here thinking sub has aoe "builds"

[lilac stag]

“Damage Amps”, “Friction” and “Buff BP”

[keen dome]

Poison toggle

[cerulean beacon]

isn't running rotten comparable?

[keen dome]

No clue

[carmine portal]

Any specific reason we're taking Improved Shuriken Storm for the Raid Build?

Also, is Atrophic Poison now the go-to for M+ and Raid? I was playing Numbing Poison for M+ previously.

[remote shuttle]

Dep if m+ has lot of casters or not, if so numb can be good

[cerulean beacon]

atrophic~numbing will never be not good in m+

[remote shuttle]

For raid always atro

[carmine portal]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[lilac stag]

You’re casting storm with tier and you get a better defensive

The alternative is absolute shit

[carmine portal]

As in Atrophic/Numbing?

[vestal escarp]

Thats on the other tree

[steel zinc]

Can you give a % to that? What favors the other? pls

[lilac stag]

You asked about imp storm

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[carmine portal]

AH yeah I just asked 2 questions, what defensive does ISS give?

or do you mean we're mean tto talent into EE?

[vale pine]

can do some sims in a moment

[steel zinc]

also fuu why does sub sim again so low we were close to 5.3 yesterday what changed?

[lilac stag]

Yes

[valid yoke]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[carmine portal]

right okay, that's not shown on the suggested talent build

[lilac stag]

It’s arguably better than overhealing since we don’t take a lot of dmg.

[carmine portal]

sweet

o7

s3 HYPE

[lilac stag]

but each person will have their personal view on it

[carmine portal]

Ofc yeah

I like the idea of it

[lilac stag]

and likely builds leaving now Wowhead aren’t focusing on defensives

[vale pine]

wdym?

oh

[valid yoke]

So I see fate bound assa simming slightly better than sub - something to be concerned about or is it another outlaw sim padding thing

[vale pine]

i removed pre combat disoriented

[lilac stag]

Took out disorienting shenanigans @steel zinc

[vale pine]

because it makes no sense to assume ti baseline

i had it accidentally in while copy/pasting the pre pull stuff

(i usually have it commented out)

[valid yoke]

Well I guess concerned is the wrong word but yes

[lilac stag]

How are you seeing this? Current APL from Whispyr isn’t out

[steel zinc]

u sure it Thats fuus sim in the sheet

[valid yoke]

This is according to fuu’s sheet

[vale pine]

its commented out

# = comment

[lilac stag]

Commented out

[steel zinc]

ohhh ok

ty sorry

[glacial kraken]

nerd math sheet smh

[valid yoke]

Unless I’m misreading @lilac stag

[lilac stag]

Which is not accurate for FB assa. Is using a s1 apl basically since no one touched it.

[steel zinc]

also why is our weapon entchant so scuffed? I just play power always.

[valid yoke]

Ahh gotcha

[lilac stag]

because we like stats

enjoy cheaper enchants

[vale pine]

I was asked to take off the profiles with the work in progress apl from whispyr as it had some mistakes and tests in it. The official apl will release latest with patch release from what i know.
I respect the decision so i took the profile offline for now.

[lilac stag]

tbf fate assa in sheet should be “coming soonTM”

[steel zinc]

I take the entchant that is best for raid aoe etc. Also that can mix sub and sin.

Like Kyveza yeah optimize everything rest is w/e

[vale pine]

The results might change, as well as talents

so take the numbers with a grain of salt

[valid yoke]

Totally fair

[lilac stag]

[hollow spear]

Fate should be 7 mio without providing context

[lilac stag]

I mean

but I don’t think the 90 sec stuff was that easy to just plug in so give it some time

[vale pine]

you can do some quick fixes to make 90 sec work, but if there was already effort spend on doing so

better to just wait the 1-2 days

and have a more optimized version/result

[lilac stag]

yup

So even with an old apl that’s not super optimized it’s doing well.

insert adds dmgs st only propaganda here

[hollow spear]

I think the kb bug was also in there

[lilac stag]

Yeah KB buggy

[hollow spear]

Dunno scath, you're the omega fb merchant here

I appreciate pushback to that

[lilac stag]

I think we’re going to end up on assa which I’m tired of.

FB at least plays better

[warm marlin]

I do believe I will be practicing some fatebound assa next week

[limber dirge]

fatebound sin is really chill

[lilac stag]

and it’s ok. for most of us it won’t really matter. Your raid needs ultimately matter the most.

so someone may see no value in blasting boss only, other will

[warm marlin]

I don’t mind assa that much to be honest, it’s still rogue and still a burst spec

[lilac stag]

🤝

Mark disappearing like our clones is awful

[warm marlin]

Any fight with important adds where you’d hate your life playing assa you probably play sub anyway

[lilac stag]

ye

[chrome palm]

FB is considerably less awful than DS and you get to press the fun buttons more often

And kingsbane 📈 📈 📈

[warm marlin]

Honestly the thing I dislike the most is getting parried

[lilac stag]

I think subs kit is good, but now that kit kinda getting some crossover with assa. Shocking.

I still worried we’re undertuned as a spec.

[native zodiac]

The burst sequence of fb is also kinda fun ngl, seeing the coins go off