idk sub haste build
#subtlety
graceful crown
leaden prairie
what for
graceful crown
outstanding energy gains
graceful crown
u got it
graceful crown
thats the secret build blizz never knew
vale pine
tbh i think a lot of players want that
tepid trellis
alot of players is also stupid
vale pine
many people complain about not having infinite energy
vale pine
and assassiantions aoe is a lot nicer than st for most because they have infinite
steel zinc
many people complain about not having infinite energy
but thats the gameplay this isnt a warrior
vale pine
the most loved assassiantion iteration was during times they had infinite energy too
it just turns out, people hate energy
leaden prairie
idk
im an energy hater on outlaw lately cause its done terribly
but on sub and assa i have no issue
well on assa it just makes me not want to play the spec at all but
tepid trellis
id like for it to make more of an impact on assa
leaden prairie
its the design of it so im fine with it
tepid trellis
so you actually play around it
tepid trellis
sub it kinda serves its purpose
making you fast during and slow out of cds
which is nice
alpine wraith
yea outside dance and inside it has diff things but it is fine
alpine wraith
does not help you have almost 300 energy as assa too
leaden prairie
id like for it to make more of an impact on assa
ye i like it when you play around it for like finisher uptime thing
idk why its not more of a thing
tepid trellis
blizzard dont know how to tune it for that
even though im sure whispyr has told them exactly how
alpine wraith
skill expression rn is only rng gamba time
leaden prairie
does not help you have almost 300 energy as assa too
Should be outlaw frr
alpine wraith
outlaw would be even more fun with 300 energy fr fr
sinister sinister sinister sinister
hollow spear
skill expression rn is only rng gamba time
Based on log reviews, I'm not sure I agree
alpine wraith
with no procs
i mean there is a baseline
there are plenty of places to mess up
but after that it is just rng
runic trail
I have a cooked idea for energy. Remove energy from damaging abilities and have energy tied into utility/defensives. Have sprint be a toggle that drains energy for example. Evasion could be the same.
It is probably an abysmal idea
hollow spear
I find that there's a lot of mediocre players complaining about having no skill expression.
leaden prairie
you have more terrible ideas like these or
hollow spear
Not only here, but also other games.
runic trail
you have more terrible ideas like these or
This is my main one.
keen dome
I would never toggle sprint off
graceful crown
just make us garen
keen dome
healers adjust
alpine wraith
it would be cool if you could choose to use more energy on finishers to increase the dmg
with a toggle
so people could min max energy usage and builder economy
runic trail
But yeah its probably a terrible plan with bad implications but on paper, I kinda like it
leaden prairie
it would be cool if you could choose to use more energy on finishers to increase...
that was kinda my idea for outlaw energy
alpine wraith
but that would be too much
leaden prairie
cause ouitalw kinda is a dump energy spec instead of a wait for energy spec
hollow spear
Why would we do that Hachadino. Did you forget that we're not a finisher spec?
alpine wraith
that was kinda my idea for outlaw energy
yea like overspend someway
alpine wraith
Why would we do that Hachadino. Did you forget that we're not a finisher spec?
one day man
we will be rich and have a majority stake on microsoft
tepid trellis
that was kinda my idea for outlaw energy
that was sorta how blade flurry worked back in the day
leaden prairie
so i wanted to have like infinite energy, but finishers that cost more or less, and you chose, to spend more or less around that
alpine wraith
to bend wow to our will
tepid trellis
made your stuff cost extra
runic trail
Coup de grace is now an empowered spell 
steel zinc
if you remove energy the gameplay of sub and assa becomes way faster. Its just all about cp then.
keen dome
Coup de grace is now an empowered spell <:uglyassdog:1370509827280867400>
which level has the charge
haughty mural
1
keen dome
hell yeah
haughty mural
keen dome
they should bring the charge back as a talent choice because I think it would be funny.
runic trail
But yeah energy tied into utility/defensives with certain moves being a toggle which drains energy wouldn't break things too much... I think. It'd work theming wise as well, gotta burn energy to sprint.
haughty mural
Ngl.. This makes me really mad looking at it like this
keen dome
I like energy and feel the relationship between combies and energy is good. The only thing I'd be interested in seeing is removing energy from finishers
haughty mural
Then we are monks
fathom adder
relentless for all specs
tepid trellis
lmao no
keen dome
nooo
keen dome
Builders costing energy -> finishers costing no energy would be smoother, I think.
fathom adder
i stand by it 
keen dome
Although it's a bit moot with how Sub functions these days
tepid trellis
the amount of energy relentless gives is a metric fuckload
hollow spear
Just make storm not cost a gazillion energy
tepid trellis
thats just from 3:44sec
hollow spear
That would be a first step
Make feint cost no energy
Defensives with conditions are ass
keen dome
OGCD feint with 0 energy cost. Let me SPIN SPIN SPIN
hollow spear
Well, then increase the cooldown a bit
tepid trellis
We had that
no no no no no, it was op because it had 0 cd and a legendary that healed your for all of your fcking health
wasent fcking feints fault
haughty mural
Okay true
tepid trellis
dont get it twisted
haughty mural
And based
tepid trellis
feint did nothing wrong
hollow spear
#freefeint
tepid trellis
blizzard just didn't think when they made the legendary
tribal blade
if they removed the energy on feint they would increase the cd 100%
keen dome
blizzard just didn't think when they made the legendary
tale as old as time
keen dome
if they removed the energy on feint they would increase the cd 100%
But what if they didn't
haughty mural
Man I was unkillable in progress with that legendary 
runic trail
blizzard just didn't think when they made the legendary
Good legendary, carried my arse through mage tower 
hollow spear
My point is that a defensive needs to be available if it's off cooldown
tribal blade
but first rule of rogue is you don't talk about feint being busted
tepid trellis
feint is already kinda busted
eh, for AoE dmg sure
hollow spear
If you press it and it doesn't work for some reason (energy/wrong room temperature) it sucks
haughty mural
but first rule of rogue is you don't talk about feint being busted
Or shuriken combo.. oh wait
tepid trellis
to bad blizzard likes designing AoE dmg in raid that isnt coded as AoE
so it just smacks you for 85% of your health
tribal blade
lol needing spreadsheets to figure out what dmg is what
hollow spear
Feint is strong
tepid trellis
IM LOOKING AT YOU KYVEZA U DUMBFUCK
hollow spear
But have you seen Mages?
tribal blade
kyveza was weird yeah
you know everyone on my raid team gives me shit about having cheat
tribal blade
but i did the entire of kyzeva prog with elusive talented and didn't die very much
tribal blade
what's the over under on mage being meta again next season
tepid trellis
its always meta
tribal blade
isn't arcane even stronger right now on ptr
haughty mural
Didn’t they even increase arcanes funnel ?
tepid trellis
about the same id say
tribal blade
like does the same funnel but can actually keep up on overall
runic trail
Yeah they need to be more consistent with how things are coded, some things being aoe effects that shouldn't be aoe is silly
tribal blade
damn
keen dome
It's possible to beat any class in damage with one simple trick
Hire a priest to pull them off the edge to their death just after they pop cooldowns.
tepid trellis
reset details before your cds
keen dome
Or that
tepid trellis
do the drjay
steel zinc
yo they nuked delve trinkets
graceful crown
so when u kill a pull of 15 u get 15k mastery? pog
or in ST u get 0 all the fight?
thats more gigapog
ah you have a chance with skills im blind
steel zinc
steel zinc
or in ST u get 0 all the fight?
nah you get stacks per minute a certain amount
its like our current tier where you get stacks using your abilities
lit say in the first setence
nova cairn
yo they nuked delve trinkets
It was a dps for outlaw before
ofc it was gonna get nerfed
steel zinc
they nerfed it by 50%
graceful crown
omg
graceful crown
doesnt it suck having proc on skills for sub?
steel zinc
doesnt it suck having proc on skills for sub?
its ok
you dance so much these days with the new tier
brisk onyx
they nerfed it by 50%
any other trinkets changed?
steel zinc
so much cdr through coup
steel zinc
any other trinkets changed?
checked like 3 and most had a 50% reduction in their effect
brisk onyx
steel zinc
so pacemaker is now bis until well forever
keen dome
so pacemaker is now bis until well forever
my beloved
alpine wraith
cosmic hunter is also quite good
tepid trellis
almost identical to ´now
steel zinc
all delve trinkets are pretty dogwater now
keen dome
all delve trinkets are pretty dogwater now
that's why there's a deterministic vendor to buy them from 
steel zinc
that's why there's a deterministic vendor to buy them from <:dracthyr_kek:100245...
yeah but that was champion track. Yeah cool so we have 2 trinkets we need and otherwise we just play HoC until we have those
leaden prairie
made your stuff cost extra
That's not really what I meant, more like I would have a decision to make between 2 finishers based on my energy, if I'm swimming in it I press the costly big hitter one, otherwise I press the energy efficient one, and the idea is to interact with energy just like that by dumping the excess instead of being limited by bad rng and shit which feels bad anywya
steel zinc
might aswell play transmitter ffs
graceful crown
I like transmitter
graceful crown
3 jumps in stealth then shadowstrike, and BUM rotation starts
keen dome
It's identical to the S2 trinket right, hacha?
alpine wraith
well agi on use is a bit better than mastery on use
steel zinc
I like transmitter
Jump 3 times Collect or stand in circle 
alpine wraith
but also budget is a bit lower because of 1 min
not like it matters because lilly is so bad
graceful crown
liked that minigame
alpine wraith
and HoC was not spectacular
graceful crown
sometimes the orb fucked up in some aoe situations but meh
shut ridge
steel zinc
Good that this is my ptr vault. 
Gotta get the bad luck out of the account early. Thats how that works or?
brisk onyx
alpine wraith
ehehe
slate marlin
Sorry mapko your character is cursed now
brisk onyx
I had to play lockenstock prog with transmitter
so you must have watched the orb drift off the field.
slate marlin
level another rogue
steel zinc
so you must have watched the orb drift off the field.
oh cmon I forgot about that
frigid prawn
!wa
wicked joltBOT
brisk onyx
wait, are the effects of rare boots different in each track?
steel zinc
wait, are the effects of rare boots different in each track?
they are bis lfr
runic trail
Good that this is my ptr vault. <:kekw:610125925413289985> Gotta get the bad luc...
The bad luck is just warming up, I hope you like having 9 capes in your vault
steel zinc
The bad luck is just warming up, I hope you like having 9 capes in your vault
They removed them already
so thats a good thing
runic trail
They removed them already
This is blizzard we're on about
There's gonna be people with cape vaults
keen dome
Timewalking is gonna drop cloaks, I know that much. I bet 10 gold.
The rest should be fool proof
But I am a fool..
steel zinc
if we dont get tuning its joever. DH (alt I might play for prog) also looking very mid
steel zinc
Timewalking is gonna drop cloaks, I know that much. I bet 10 gold.
true
runic trail
Its like on NA reset once where they somehow broke things and people were getting duplicates in the vaults
steel zinc
The rest should be fool proof
yes
brisk onyx
they are bis lfr
I mean, I remember it was all 50% in any track
steel zinc
I mean, I remember it was all 50% in any track
it is
brisk onyx
now it is 20% in lfr
steel zinc
I guess myth track boots (standard ones) are better then the lfr ones
brisk onyx
ye
brisk onyx
keen dome
So much for an optional boss lmao (it was never optional)
alpine wraith
rofl
well you may skip it for prog
but farm the hc vers
depending on how hard it is
keen dome
i'm gonna kill it so nobody can get the DH spec
leaden prairie
20/30/40/50%
its 150 in the spell data i think they havent changed the tooltip yet
keen dome
Maybe they'll change the tooltip and nothing else
alpine wraith
classic blizz if that happens
steel zinc
its 150 in the spell data i think they havent changed the tooltip yet
For all dificulties?
alpine wraith
they need to split the effects in data too
no idea when it will happen
or if they will just serverside it to a diff one
and call it a day
lilac stag
What do you want split?
alpine wraith
i dont want anything they just changed something in 1 place but not another
steel zinc
We are doomed with 2 of the best buffs ara 15
lilac stag
i dont want anything they just changed something in 1 place but not another
I’m trying to understand the context. I have zero idea what you’re discussing
nova cairn
We are doomed with 2 of the best buffs ara 15
Reroll outlaw gg 
lilac stag
We are doomed with 2 of the best buffs ara 15
runic trail
Reroll outlaw gg <a:grab:1230825250950873139>
alpine wraith
I’m trying to understand the context. I have zero idea what you’re discussing
they nerfed the boots to have diff % values in theory
but tooltips and data kinda still not updated
lilac stag
Oh
alpine wraith
so someone joked they just forgot and the nerf wont happen maybe
nova cairn
alpine wraith
because they forget to implement
lilac stag
<:caught:1306389968851177612>
Did the hunter and hero class fall asleep?
lilac stag
Fate or Tricky?
lilac stag
I figured but didn’t want to assume
steel zinc
Reroll outlaw gg <a:grab:1230825250950873139>
I play all 3 just mostly a raider and outlaw isnt really meta in raid
steel zinc
<:caught:1306389968851177612>
what key? ptr?
lilac stag
outlaw meta for DH council
lilac stag
but thinking anything rogue is meta for raid is hilarious and delulu
nova cairn
Sub is
Because of how the bosses are designed
They have damage amps and shin was going through the fights and timings seem to be decent for them
lilac stag
it won’t be past first raid tuning pass after rwf
merry agate
We are doomed with 2 of the best buffs ara 15
Another 20% for BP incomming no worries 
steel zinc
but thinking anything rogue is meta for raid is hilarious and delulu
meta you will always play one.
the buff is op in prog
its like having no paladin
lilac stag
until it’s not
alpine wraith
gotta pray they tune more bosses like magmorax
where everyone is fearing for their life
tribal blade
from the looks of this tier there's gonna be a lot of scary bosses
lilac stag
You’re dropping healers until you can’t. Would be funny if bringing in a fdk over rogue (same fight timings) is worth more than atrophic to hit dps checks.
tribal blade
in terms of dmg
lilac stag
The moving pieces in RWF is what I find fun. The hof guild and balancing is whatever. Just don’t let the spec be trash the rest tier after 3 weeks prog is done
alpine wraith
rogue is just strange rn a bit
lilac stag
when those checks matter less and less
alpine wraith
i mean it is not like we will be horrible but also
spiral sierra
<:caught:1306389968851177612>
fatebound or trickster? just curious.
alpine wraith
trickster fate is quite bad as outlaw
spiral sierra
still? ok
steel zinc
if all rogue specs had like 10% aura buff we gucci like np
steel zinc
sin maybe more but fatebound is op for fractilus
spiral sierra
am i weird to like DS over trickster for Sub?
spiral sierra
bummer
tribal blade
am i weird to like DS over trickster for Sub?
y e s
alpine wraith
i mean DS could have had a cool thematic
hazy breach
sin maybe more but fatebound is op for fractilus
Why would it be op on fractilus
alpine wraith
of big single evis and also big damage on dances with marks
but
blizz decided no
tribal blade
i was super stoked on DS when i read the theme
spiral sierra
guess ill play outlaw then xD
tribal blade
and then super not stoked when we were figuring out how much they borked the whole tree
lilac stag
if all rogue specs had like 10% aura buff we gucci like np
Yep. I just think context of what people in here are progging needs to be taken with a big ole pinch of 
If you’re pushing top 50, yes your view of how good the sub experience is in raid, will be different than someone wondering why Aug is doing better in raid while they’re progging the 7th boss
steel zinc
Why would it be op on fractilus
on pure st its not op just the fight is a 5min target sim and assa sims highest
alpine wraith
best one was having it play well with sub
then solving a bug for assa
and saying fuck you to sub
steel zinc
like patchwerk = fractilus
hazy breach
on pure st its not op just the fight is a 5min target sim and assa sims highest
It doesnt, but sure
steel zinc
or am I missing sth?
tribal blade
isn't fatebound completely bricked for sin
steel zinc
Yeah outlaw sims the highest but realistically you wont have the gear for outlaw with a good mainhand etc
steel zinc
isn't fatebound completely bricked for sin
as soon as you have a 2nd target yes
on pure st
steel zinc
It doesnt, but sure
Care to explain?
tribal blade
i thought nothing lines up like it should
nova cairn
isn't fatebound completely bricked for sin
Fatebound for both Outlaw and sin ye
hazy breach
Sub sims higher
tribal blade
Fatebound for both Outlaw and sin ye
sad
actually not sad, i have never ever played fatebound ever
tribal blade
so i don't need to learn it lol
nova cairn
actually not sad, i have never ever played fatebound ever
It's kinda toxic in keys
You run around keeping lucky coin up
also no perma tricks
tribal blade
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1083360651394678784/1399744062554112000...
HAHAHA
that's actually hilarious
the cdr means nothing
tribal blade
It's kinda toxic in keys
oh damn
nova cairn
To keep coin up in S1
I would blind the next pack
if It would run out before tank pulled
just to keep it up
hazy breach
Its like kezan
tribal blade
honestly DS sounds kinda annoying as well
you can't shiv on DN
just adds more annoyance to playing around the mark
hazy breach
Nah you still shiv the same
tribal blade
oh ok
hazy breach
Just tank the loss sometimes
steel zinc
Sub sims higher
On st? But sim says np 😦
steel zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tribal blade
is it not a big loss taking away that part of the 4pc
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/it-just-needs-that-little-bit-of-friction-a-little-rubbin...
WE DON'T NEED MORE FRICTION
lilac stag
Tell that to realz
nova cairn
FATEBOUND SIMS ARE FAKE
lilac stag
Or his AI
hazy breach
On st? But sim says np 😦
If you run fuus sim again youll see that its lower, because he simmed it before a bunch of bugs was added in simc
nova cairn
Also going off assa and Outlaw Fatebound sims there isn't any point
nova cairn
you hardly go fatebound
tribal blade
sims have always been super bait anyways
hazy breach
(they wont, they wont redesign the tree until .5 at best, fatebound is just doomed)
steel zinc
we will get a rework in midnight
hazy breach
But the 2p making KB roll the coin like DM is actually really good numerically
steel zinc
the state of bugs is insane
lilac stag
They’re aren’t resigning anything on rogue. Expansion is over as soon as raid ships
tribal blade
i've hated fatebound since i read it's theme
steel zinc
on beta when I played it the hero talent was a nothing burger since it did lit nothing just added numbers
tribal blade
i have no idea how it has any relation to rogue in the slightest
steel zinc
They’re aren’t resigning anything on rogue. Expansion is over as soon as raid s...
I said midnight
that is next exp
^^
tribal blade
fatebound reads to me like someone just came up with something off the top of their head
lilac stag
tribal blade
and did no drafts, just sent the idea
nova cairn
Naa rogue rework coming at midnight... (tonight?) 
tribal blade
how stupid would we all look if tomorrow they released dev notes with like 75% rogue changes
and bug fixes
and talent changes
(not gonna happen)
tribal blade
i didn't realize hunter gets that much
dreamy badger
Number 1 from behind
hazy breach
Tbf patch lines are quite an imperfect measurement
lilac stag
how stupid would we all look if tomorrow they released dev notes with like 75% r...
I’d be fine eating crow if it’s actual fixes and improvements.
dreamy badger
We are so back
runic trail
I mean, number of lines on there own is a silly metric, the changes could be pointless
hazy breach
Like assa had quite a few this ptr
nova cairn
Tbf patch lines are quite an imperfect measurement
I know but I love spreading complete bullshit
lilac stag
History, especially for sub, says differently.
hazy breach
I know but I love spreading complete bullshit
Fair enough
dreamy badger
nova cairn
Naa but in all seriousness
runic trail
I'd rather have a small number of impactful changes/bugfixes than a few lines of aura tweaks
hazy breach
Atleast its saying that its lines and not being like "attention given to spec" with a vague number
nova cairn
Atleast its saying that its lines and not being like "attention given to spec" w...
yeye
lilac stag
Naa but in all seriousness
We’d
Have
More
Lines
If
Guy
Wrote
The
Notes
nova cairn
Remember hunter rework
runic trail
We’d
Have
More
Lines
If
Guy
Wrote
The
Notes
Zac writes the notes, rogue stonks
hazy breach
Outlaw style
nova cairn
That shit broke my mouse wheel
runic trail
Just add a few siren gifs in there
nova cairn
I think stick a 👏 between each word just to bulk it out
👏 we 👏 are 👏 buffing 👏 outlaw👏
👏 10%👏 aura👏 Buff👏
dreamy badger
I can hear the claps in my head while reading that wtf
nova cairn
I can hear the claps in my head while reading that wtf
See effective
I clap IRL to it
dreamy badger
Just bend over and enjoy
lilac stag
🚨we 🚨are 🚨 nerfing 🚨
💚💚💚💚 atrophic 💚💚💚💚
💚💚💚💚 poison 💚💚💚💚
🌈 enjoy 🫶🏻 the 🫶🏻 bench 🪑
tribal blade
it's honestly kind of vindicating to see actual definitive proof of how few dev notes rogue has been getting this expac
tribal blade
so i know we're not all here being crybabies
dreamy badger
🚨we 🚨are 🚨 nerfing 🚨
💚💚💚💚 atrophic 💚💚💚💚
💚💚💚💚 poison 💚💚💚💚
🌈 ...
Idk how to do these sounds in my head
lilac stag
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🐕
lilac stag
just follow your heart
dreamy badger
Ill try
empty hornet
"this expac"
lilac stag
If that doesn’t work, just be a tornado warning siren
empty hornet
i still remember Shadowlands beta
alpine wraith
dont make us remember
empty hornet
entire alpha+beta we got 1 post, most other specs were sitting at 10-15
lilac stag
i still remember Shadowlands beta
we’re just back in SL dev for WoW
keen dome
we were perfect(ly ignored)
empty hornet
sephuz coming back for a week to try and salvage rogue 
dreamy badger
What is a shadowlands
alpine wraith
also seli the prophet now parry is a mechanic again
lilac stag
I miss sephuz
alpine wraith
for other people
lilac stag
we have no 4th quarter dev savior this time
nova cairn
I mean it's kinda sus tho
tribal blade
well it can't get that much worse than this
nova cairn
DH and rogue have the least lines
hazy breach
sephuz coming back for a week to try and salvage rogue <a:kmaLOL:132729132449542...
Ye and thats why sectech is still riddled with cursed bugs right 
tribal blade
can't go more last place than last place 😉
tribal blade
reeee
empty hornet
Ye and thats why sectech is still riddled with cursed bugs right <a:KEKWBASS:740...
hey
at least we didnt get slaughter poison as venthyr
hazy breach
Fair enough
empty hornet
tribal blade
oh that's actual tank dmg
nova cairn
I don't think so
tribal blade
oh ok haha
nova cairn
If I did st would be over 10M
tribal blade
i don't get how outlaw can do that much overall but then suck on ST
with how the spec works
nova cairn
Our prio sucks now
tribal blade
jesus
tribal blade
that looks like a roided up version of live details
void ocean
What does trickster sub look like in keys atm
tribal blade
What does trickster sub look like in keys atm
haven't been paying much attention, but i hear piloted right doing quite a bit of dammy
seems to be a big caveat on the fact that sub played right
does dam
delicate current
DH and rogue have the least lines
Curious...wonder what's the similarity
graceful osprey
11.2.5
Sub rogue
Increase backstab damage by 3%
Increase black powder damage by 6%
That’s what we’ll get
hazy breach
seems to be a big caveat on the fact that sub played right
Ye bruv thats the issue innit
tribal blade
Ye bruv thats the issue innit
o ye guv
void ocean
but I always wanted to play left
plush roost
Ive averaged 7.8-8m on ecodome, 6.5-7m on streets.
Groups never finished halls or gambit last week xd
And i feel like i play sub at a fairly high level
But nothing past a 16 unfort my team hasnt wanted to ptr at all lately
nova cairn
Ye bruv thats the issue innit
hazy breach
Mostly looks like they just need to nerf MM and frost dk
plush roost
Yeah mm, fdk, arcane all jesus tier rn
hazy breach
But idk surely they buff assa a bit, both deathstalker tier and fatebound tier is horrendously downbad
vale pine
Mostly looks like they just need to nerf MM and frost dk
instruction unclear, mm and frost buffs deployed
void ocean
Mostly looks like they just need to nerf MM and frost dk
u shush
plush roost
Yeah it should be an assa season with the way dungeons are designed ngl
void ocean
i mean idgaf bout mm
plush roost
But assa is downBAD
hazy breach
Yeah it should be an assa season with the way dungeons are designed ngl
Dawnbreaker as assa sounds ungood
plush roost
But honestly after those 3 specs i think meta feels fairly balanced
hazy breach
Rawdogging first and last boss without any adds ontop of them
plush roost
Yeah bosses as assa kinda cringe on db
I think the strat for ecodome
Is just gonna be everyone stackup on a wall and bait warps/farstalkerd there
hazy breach
Ecodome timings on the bosses seemed insane for sub no
plush roost
Yeah
hollow spear
I feel like gameplay and timings in general are quite good for us next season
hollow spear
It's just a numbers game
plush roost
If youre flag on pull on awazj you get your next set on javelins and your next set on the double burn
Very nice
Kinda janky on last boss tho, i feel like i wanna send cds on the pack before so flag comes up during the triple clone section
lilac stag
DH and rogue have the least lines
One common thread
lilac stag
Dawnbreaker as assa sounds ungood
That’s my fill vault key right there. 
hazy breach
If youre flag on pull on awazj you get your next set on javelins and your next s...
As far as i could tell it was exactly 90s inbetween the double burns, so ideally you'd just have cds for those
And natty dances for spears
steel zinc
Ecodome timings on the bosses seemed insane for sub no
Yeah also great dungeon
plush roost
Yeah i think if fdk is good maybe people start routing around 90s and pull that boss so cds line up
steel zinc
probably my fav
nova cairn
Yeah also great dungeon
Blinking lizard is very ungood for me
steel zinc
yeah true
plush roost
Idk i think blinking lizard is just stack as group and rotate ccs
They stay put
Or bait into wall
Or if u mean boss yeah that shit is ass on outlaw
plush roost
First and last boss fine for outlaw, 2nd boss tho felt really weird with the forced downtime
swift tinsel
void delve trinket nerfed?
plush roost
I just spammed ss/ps, rtb and cancel aura snd for a couple supercharger stacks lmao
swift tinsel
rip
steel zinc
void delve trinket nerfed?
50% to be exact I posted a screenshot earlier today
lilac stag
no alternatively nice things for you!
dreamy moat
Is every agi melee just gonna be forge+pacemaker gapping everything else?
Desperately need a real trinket tuning pass
ig maybe not stinky 90s specs (:
vestal escarp
pacemaker kickstart my heart
nova cairn
Cosmic and claw for outlaw
hazy breach
ig maybe not stinky 90s specs (:
On the standard 5 min sim forge is roughly equal to prism
Any shorter and forge is better, longer and prism is better
For sub that is
And sub pretends that its a 3 min trinket 
delicate current
Do we not want the mastery trinket from eco dome?
hazy breach
No, that one sucks
vestal escarp
wowza
hazy breach
Its usable until you get any of the raid trinkets
warm depot
sigil/prism
hazy breach
Trinkets generally have a "budget" of power allocated to them.
Those with passive agility on them typically have roughly 70% of the budget in the passive agility and 30% of the budget in the active effect, whereas the opposite is true for trinkets with secondary stats as their passive (making them 30% passive, 70% active)
And since sub does the vast majority of our damage during out burst, we want as much of the budget to be in the on-use as possible while as little as possible in the passive
Which is why trinkets like the ecodome one or house of cards arent that good
And why something like transmitter pre-nerf was outsimming house of cards, depiste being 39 ilvls lower
lilac stag
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
thorny rivet
I want to take transmitter with me to midnight. Best trinket to exist.
hazy breach
Sometimes they end up with trinkets that have more than the "budget" should allow them too, either because of bad math or because they want that particular trinket to be good (raid trinkets often get higher values than dungeon trinkets to incentivize raiding for example)
lilac stag
Soulbreaker dog water? Wondering if there’s some gaming with it on add fights
dreamy moat
all delve trinkets are bin
dreamy moat
On the standard 5 min sim forge is roughly equal to prism
Thats funny, unsurprising yet still funny
hazy breach
Thats funny, unsurprising yet still funny
Im saddened by the fact that prism takes 2:30 to cap out, meaning that you cant feasibly skip one set of cds (90s) and then double it and give it to the next cds
Like you could with spymaster
Or well you could, but you'd be losing value
dreamy moat
You're also just not rewarded for holding it really, you get a bigger on use sure but in the interim its just the same flat dmg proc
hazy breach
But you do get severely punished if you die or if you do not have something to hit to proc the effect
vestal escarp
casters game casters tier
hazy breach
Surely they do a tuning pass on the trinkets right 
dreamy moat
yea...
vestal escarp
melee? yikes go back to pvp basement
pulsar hemlock
-4% aura nerf on sub for even suggesting trinket tuning
pearl swan
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
grand wyvern
i suspect damage amps solve some problems but create 1000 more tuning problems
alpine wraith
Surely they do a tuning pass on the trinkets right <:garf:1320173032743899157> <...
hey they just nerfed a lot of trinks by 50%
that is some balance pass right
errant ferry
melee? yikes go back to pvp basement
That’s just rogue, we are the pvp class. It’s why no one plays it and we get no tuning 🙂
haughty mural
hey they just nerfed a lot of trinks by 50%
hazy breach
Delve trinkets ye
alpine wraith
now their job is done
see ya on midnight
remember to buy the super duper epic edition
swift tinsel
I bet they high-fived after it too
alpine wraith
and the 1 year subscription
swift tinsel
and sign away the rights to your firstborn child
pulsar hemlock
Midnight collectors edition better come with a full size bust of Xal's feet, foot jewelry and all.
hazy breach
Y'all need jesus
pulsar hemlock
I need them purple toes on my desk.
crystal bone
super duper epic premium deluxe midnight expansion pack comes with a membership for the new premium ultimate deluxe exclusive battlepass 
brittle plinth
Midnight collectors edition better come with a full size bust of Xal's feet, foo...
I rather have Thrall's Toesies
hollow spear
If a spec doesn't have enough battle pass subscribers, it will get the sub rogue treatment
vale pine
can always blame the company instead of the devs
devs just do their job and are most of the time doing their best
brittle plinth
the term dev is used pretty broadly
no one is seriously saying "that jr who got this feature is at fault for the backlog"
swift tinsel
I absolutely blame the company directly for how things have gotten
pulsar hemlock
I'm hoping for a pass on our hero talents moreso than anything else.
swift tinsel
they're the ones determining what resources go where
pulsar hemlock
Just any positive attention at all for them.
vale pine
i am just saying, many of the devs are probably very pationate about what they do but have a lot of stress and deadlines limiting them.
proven plover
Usually its not a dev but management issue
brittle plinth
If Blizzard had held for what? an extra 4-5 days before seeking outside funding, the whole story would be different
swift tinsel
Devs aren't the ones firing QA
vale pine
e.g. you saw sharizzard leave blizzard due to burnout, and we might see more in the future
brittle plinth
Vivendi was where things got muddy
pulsar hemlock
I imagine this patch cadence can't be easy to manage
vale pine
its in my opinion just a death spiral atm
brittle plinth
We also have a perception of "knowing best"
vale pine
blizz tries to push faster release
lead decides to try to re-use content, turns out re-use content still requires extra dev time
pulsar hemlock
Quality and content are both taking a hit as a result now
vale pine
so now they are still down time and need to cut content or delay whatever they had planed
which leads to even more of the same problems
proven plover
Dw devs will go but no one needs devs anyway, they are just eating away on the profits when there is now AI to replace them fully and cheaply 
slate lantern
midnight will be a crux point for the game i feel, just based on when the layoffs happened and the increased patch cadence
pulsar hemlock
I fear the Midnight reveal this month may just be a player housing showcase and little more, I hope to God I'm wrong.
vale pine
and we get a major overhole of the entire game again legion style
proven plover
After the World soul saga for sure this time
slate lantern
and we get a major overhole of the entire game again legion style
mmm overhole
hazy breach
Im obviously biased but i feel like theyre not putting nearly enough value on class tuning and balance, since thats the lens everybody experiences the content through
pulsar hemlock
Feel like we are overdue for a stat squish again
vale pine
mmm overhole
*overhaul
hazy breach
More of an afterthought it seems
vale pine
well the theory i hear lately is
that they just use the time for next xpac
so ofc they do less work now
but it might as well be a big baloon filled with 
vestal escarp
But fuu, next expac is used to buy time for the expac later
vale pine
also we might see less changes
pulsar hemlock
something something midnight is metzens baby
vale pine
because of how much complexity talent trees have
limpid sage
Is there a public spreadsheet or something for cd timings next season?
vale pine
if you buff x, it can make something else op
and talent trees are complex to the point its hard to control
doing less means less chance to fuck up
proven plover
Maybe replace the Talent trees with like 10 choice nodes then
vestal escarp
You mean 12
vale pine
i mean
vestal escarp
Was it 15
slate lantern
Is there a public spreadsheet or something for cd timings next season?
for like bosses?
limpid sage
for like bosses?
Yeah exactly
vestal escarp
So much time has passed since shadowlands
vale pine
pandaria classic def. did make a lot of people look at the old trees
and see they did lead to simialr results
without all the problems
slate marlin
I like how some specs have a lot of build variety
slate lantern
Yeah exactly
not yet afaik, and mostly just use lorrgs to see when people are popping when
proven plover
Its just funny to me because we came to the same conclusion after vanilla classic
slate marlin
but the power creep has been massive
and a lot of specs dont rly have talent choices
proven plover
U Tell me when legion classic comes out weil will Realise that were missing borrowed power
Xd
slate marlin
Assa and sub trees have wildly different results
vale pine
vanilla classic is diffrent
winter hill
If shadow blades is on CD and my shadow dance + symbols are up (1 charge is ready, 2nd charge is coming off cd), whats the timing I should use to know if I should send it vs wait for the next shadow blades?
vale pine
as the game was very much a lot simpler back then, content was trivial to the point you as a player could make it hard for yourself
vestal escarp
Assa and sub trees have wildly different results
One is a tree 
vale pine
mop is the first "modern" wow, with most systems in place
legion might be the turning point you could say not much changed since
slate lantern
If shadow blades is on CD and my shadow dance + symbols are up (1 charge is read...
look at the bottom of this sheet to see when you want to ideally be sending what. obv fight timing matters but helpful to get a general idea
slate marlin
I like current trees, but it shows they cant actively iterate or balance all of them
which imo is the problem
hazy breach
If shadow blades is on CD and my shadow dance + symbols are up (1 charge is read...
Generally if flag has 20-25s cd left dont send
When you press flag you want to have 1 dance stack and ~35s left on your second charge
slate marlin
If they had worked on sub tree and made it better the perception we would have of it would be vastly different
but they havent, so we dont like it
swift tinsel
I like current trees, but it shows they cant actively iterate or balance all of ...
Agreed, there's too much disparity between well-developed trees that offer builds based on preference/encounter type and those like sub who take the least-bad options
slate marlin
Yep
swift tinsel
As with sin and sub being prime examples
slate marlin
i cant blame developers tho, i have said this before but i doubt devs can work on whatever they want
higher ups are to blame
swift tinsel
yep
slate lantern
Agreed, there's too much disparity between well-developed trees that offer build...
but get too far on the first type and you end up with specs that have to sacrifice a lot for aoe to get ST and vice versa, and generally people really dislike that as well
proven plover
legion might be the turning point you could say not much changed since
Well legion introduced a lot of Additional nuances to the game. Class Halls & their Progression, suramar as a massive progressive storyline, artifact weapons with the runes you socket into them + the whole Progression System associated with them, the legendaries, World quests being pretty much Mandatory in order to bump blp for the legos which by the way made almost ALL aspects of the game worthwhile because it could award you the legendary you need
slate marlin
Bc when developers work on a tree, it shows how good they are
swift tinsel
but get too far on the first type and you end up with specs that have to sacrifi...
right, which is why its hard to maintain that kind of system in general
like conceptually is awesome
vale pine
Well legion introduced a lot of Additional nuances to the game. Class Halls & th...
i am not sure i follow
slate marlin
i am not sure i follow
ehere did you get lost daddy
swift tinsel
but they don't devote enough time and attention across the board to keep it from feeling like ass for most specs
slate marlin
is it most specs, tho?
class trees for example, warlocks is absolute trash
But demo and destro tree dont look bad
vale pine
but i think its just Lgeion added a lot of the new systems which are still in place:
- Mythic+ as a core new gameplay element
- Progression systems with the legendary weapon and details about them (e.g. skill tree, ap etc.)
- Worldquests as a new casual oriented content type.
And a lot of optional content and systems which made sense
Legion was also making each spec unique, and did try to seperate themes and gameplay
while more modern xpacs do the complete opposite
some things got completely dropped after legion
a lot of it was optional content like secrets, pickpocketing, etc
but even thinking of economy/crafting
hollow plinth
legion was the last seriously innovative xpac i think
then it's been riding the same ion train since then
vale pine
i don't know how many remember blood of sageras, as a currency you got passively in any content you do
you could enchant your gear too to get more of it
hollow plinth
dragonflight was close with flying and profession stuffs
vale pine
and it was a universal currrency to egt crafting materials
swift tinsel
if they did something useful with resonant crystals, holy
vale pine
dragon flying was a means to an end
swift tinsel
they're nice for early stuff
vale pine
there was a problem with flying, mostly how people used it
swift tinsel
but once you're doing any kind of actual content they're just nothing currency
vale pine
e.g. before dragonflying you had people just fly over one objective, and as it spawns drop kill it
this was not a good player experience
dragon flying basically removes this player behaviour entirely
by not allowing you to do that
its basically a indirect way to nerf flying
but i agree that its inovative as it changes a fundermental part of the game
professions i am not sure i would say so, you either love or hate the new system
similar to talent trees
lilac stag
🚨what level of doom we at today? 🚨
night sparrow
wow iz ded xd
slate marlin
I just want executives or whoever it is to respect dev cycle
lucid jackal
Housing is about to be the biggest feature the game has ever seen
vale pine
we had "housing at home" in wod
slate marlin
Im not sure it will be as big as m+
but definetely huuuge
It caters to a lot of not casual people, and basicaly all casual people
vale pine
I think we need to see it to understand the extend
vale pine
e.g. dragonflying was said to be the all consuming change people will not stop taling about when it came out
turns out people stopped to care after a bit more than a week
slate marlin
Dragonflying has been a huge w in my books
lilac stag
I don’t think housing is going actually impact what most people in here would consider important.
slate marlin
I don’t think housing is going actually impact what most people in here would co...
We are such a small part of the wow community tho
lilac stag
Sims in wow 
alpine wraith
think it will make lots of people happy at leasta
slate marlin
like who here likes to do delves
lilac stag
of course, but it’s not like that is going to all of the sudden bring players back to raiding
lilac stag
like who here likes to do delves
I love them. Best content in game.
slate marlin
vc the lots of people who atualy dl
slate marlin
I love them. Best content in game.
but you get my point tho
vale pine
Dragonflying has been a huge w in my books
don't get me wrong, i think dragonflying is a lot more fun than regular flying
but for me the diffrence isn't as noticable
its just that regular flying now sucks
lilac stag
I’m talking more of keeping subs healthy and allocating resources to the core game
warm depot
df was a direct response to increase player interaction
slate marlin
don't get me wrong, i think dragonflying is a lot more fun than regular flying
yep, but i have to say that as an expansion defining feature its a bit neh
vale pine
because content was deisgned with less detail and bigger distances
left ledge
Housing will save the game if and only if they let me make trap rooms and a mini makgora arena
vale pine
so if you compare it in new content
it feels way higher impact
than it actually would be if flying was faster
lilac stag
Housing will save the game if and only if they let me make trap rooms and a mini...
Cuck chair and room for rogues to watch devs work on other classes.
left ledge
vale pine
housing in goldshire will explode
lilac stag
moonglade brothels
left ledge
In goldshire?
slate marlin
i like to have a place where i can see guildies
vale pine
blizz "we can't explain this phenomena but somehow everyone wants a house in goldshire
slate marlin
like to all be there crafting ir doing whatever
left ledge
i like to have a place where i can see guildies
Yeah aren’t they doing guild communities
slate marlin
I remember something along those lines
left ledge
Or some sort of private community
lilac stag
But if you’re differnt factions you’re screwed I think
left ledge
You sign a charter
steel zinc
Im obviously biased but i feel like theyre not putting nearly enough value on cl...
S2 was balanced.
left ledge
But if you’re differnt factions you’re screwed I think
Yeah idk how they messed up with that one
alpine wraith
those are fine
vale pine
In goldshire?
its a joke because many of the rp community is there and they often lean into "mature" content
slate marlin
But in the end what i care the most in wow is gameplay and balance
left ledge
Oh yeah lol
slate marlin
bc wow combat system is absolutely goated
hollow spear
Mature content like talking about Xalat'ussy?
swift tinsel
minus armor and parry still existing
slate lantern
battlepass locked housing unlocks 
vale pine
i am sure xala's feet pictures make rounds there
slate marlin
Those are relics of the past, parry is either useless or it makes u ragequit
hollow spear
Just play sub
slate marlin
Arnor i think its mostly for pvp
vale pine
because many of the action rpg's have a more natural feel to rotation and abilities
hollow spear
The problem is more that the competition drops the ball
slate lantern
osrs combat goated
hollow spear
GW2 feels better imo
slate marlin
idk i love wow combat
swift tinsel
wow's melee combat especially feels pretty clunky to me
vale pine
e.g. ask stealthi to show some of the abilities of lost ark (i think thats what he plays)
warm depot
wow combat is good in that its fluid for mmos but its very much mmo rather than action oriented like gw2
vale pine
and they feel impactful in animation, and rotaitons feel thought out
warm depot
yes in gw2 there are rotations but its more action-y than wow if that makes sense
slate marlin
But yeah, i just want wow to not be rushed, and them working more on specs
and ill be happy
vale pine
i think it depends what you compare it to
lilac stag
e.g. ask stealthi to show some of the abilities of lost ark (i think thats what ...
Lost Ark is so pretty to watch ability wise.
swift tinsel
yeah Lost Ark def has a tactile feedback with abilities
vale pine
is wow combat better than ffo?
very likely
is it better compared to more fluid/action based systems? i don't know
steel zinc
actually not dooming
We gotta doom
slate marlin
I guess i havent been that deep in those game to compare
lilac stag
But it was immersive between playstyle and visual feedback
vale pine
We gotta doom
why
slate marlin
but wow combat inside dungeons or raids is truely awesome
swift tinsel
Lost Ark and Diablo III/IV are the only ones I've really played lately
slate marlin
Visual feedback is very lacking for some specs tho
Secret technique has no right to have such a shit animation
swift tinsel
clones got left in Dragonflight
proven plover
But we got a new coup animation
slate marlin
Idk i dont have anything meaningful to add to a conv comparing games
lilac stag
But we got a new coup animation
We didn’t. They just made it visible.
and also recycled a warrior visual
keen dome
Hey, at least we keep getting stuff from the cool meathead class
steel zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
keen dome
That's a positive
slate marlin
Battle shout rogue incoming
vale pine
We still have so many bugs all 3 specs a dead hero talent etc
so we are in the same position as like 80% of specs/classes in the game
tepid trellis
would go hard
slate marlin
so we are in the same position as like 80% of specs/classes in the game
Again, they dont have the time or the power to iterate on most specs
keen dome
Blizz made an extremely good animation for SecTec but shove it onto a trinket. Just replace the Ky'veza's with purple 'us' and bingo, job done
slate marlin
Its sad
keen dome
everyone celebrates, sub stonks to the moon
slate marlin
but it is what it is
vale pine
they need to delay it
vestal escarp
Its truly time for wow 2
ok but who makes it?
vale pine
because s3 will have pricess as the solo challange
so can't make sub look like it just yet
keen dome
I bet she's gonna have even cooler animations fo rit
vale pine
keen dome
and we're gonna see it and go. "blizz."
vale pine
and blizz will go
slate marlin
I am rly coping for rogue work on 12.0
keen dome
make us like mummy ky'veza blizz
carmine portal
GOD that's an ugly fkn game
swift tinsel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWudRuRtB4A&t=91s scale back the overly-anime-vibe for some of them and bam
vale pine
"oh wow, you think what i am thinking?"
proven plover
ok but who makes it?
Microsoft will open a New studio called titanforge which will develop and drive the game into the abyss
vale pine
"yes, this would make awesome animations for ... let us say it together"
keen dome
We're in WoW 2 right now
vale pine
"Void DH"
slate marlin
Imagine if they made a void dh kyveza
vale pine
slate marlin
rather than the kyveza spec as cool as kyveza
carmine portal
there is like, absolutely 0 cohesion between the character and the world around them in that game, also the UI looks shapoopy
vestal escarp
void dh will be the last little brother sucking up all attention
slate marlin
I dont think they will add another spec
vestal escarp
if
slate marlin
can they even manage to do so?
keen dome
It would be incredibly funny if they stealth drop a new DH spec with zero testing and it is completely, utterly beyond broken and unplayable
slate marlin
heres like 39 specs in wow
keen dome
can they even manage to do so?
no, because hero talents
slate marlin
and they cant keep up
swift tinsel
It would be incredibly funny if they stealth drop a new DH spec with zero testin...
so day one death knight
keen dome
Maybe as an expansion launch addition like they do a handful of them at once
slate marlin
so day one death knight
or aug
keen dome
But in the final patch of an expansion with hero talents on a spec with only two trees? nah no shot
slate marlin
I doubt it
swift tinsel
yeah it was beyond a hail mary to hope they were gonna drop a new spec
just didn't add up
carmine portal
I'm not sure anyone has said the void DH would come out THIS patch
slate marlin
you know what will happen in 11.2.5 tho? sub bugfixez
carmine portal
I 100% believe this is the groundwork for it tho
keen dome
I think it'll be Velf / nightfallen for remix
slate marlin
god i have a huge white line at my screen and i cant type properly
carmine portal
I would love to see that, more influenced on the demon of their choice rather than just generic green
keen dome
I wonder when we'll get news on how Tazavesh hard mode is meant to work
They talked about it being a once-a-week challenge that would reward Myth vault, iirc. But nothing on it since
slate marlin
Guess
probably no time for it
feels like they are so behind in schedule
has to be a shit work environment atm
keen dome
Tazavesh isn't available in week 0 for the M0's either so I dunno
keen dome
Finish all the skydriving races in Undermine.
slate marlin
I wont do any prepatch stuff
im traveling 1st week of august
until the 11th
weird timing for a wow patch
weary saffron
uhh they aren't clearing valorstones this time so you can go make sure you're capped on relevant chars
shadow snow
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
slate lantern
uhh they aren't clearing valorstones this time so you can go make sure you're ca...
I don't even know what the best way to get valorstones at this point 
weary saffron
oh you can also spend extra vault tokens you didn't wind up spending, on the valorstone packs too I think
vale pine
Finish all the skydriving races in Undermine.
did you?
i actually wonder how many players did all racing achivements
steel zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
steel zinc
@arctic spire
alpine wraith
im a beast at racing
arctic spire
tyt
north schooner
skydriving was a joke tbh, you can get gold in 1 attempt
graceful crown
im gonna stop playing and just play with housing
if they add some survival options would be great
🏄🏻♂️
arctic spire
does sub not play with the rotten on ptr atm?
hazy breach
I'm so ready for housing
Bro theres gonna be so many people making dogshit jumping puzzles/courses