subtlety

[runic trail]

Hitting the enemy at terminal velocity

Fdk and mm hunters?

[daring marlin]

Goddammit my best friend is playing hunter :(((

He either reroll or he is no longer my best friend

[haughty mural]

Damn

[runic trail]

Get him to reroll survival

[bleak night]

get him to say hes survival but then sneakily play fotm mm

that way he has the moral high ground and the op spec

[steel zinc]

next to mm hunter yes

fdk and mm hunter are bis in raid and m+

and even udk is sleeper op in pure st

[stiff stirrup]

So more or less same classes as now

[runic trail]

Its fine, they were the only specs dumb enough to stick their head over the parapet so they can be shot down in the week 1 tuning

[steel zinc]

tuning is so out of wack rn

delta between top is over 25%

[runic trail]

Which can at least be fixed by aura tweaks

[steel zinc]

100%

[graceful crown]

True, forgot about mm

another shiat

[steel zinc]

tbf and playing devils advocate subs first dance fix and rotten fix are really really nice quality of live changes

[graceful crown]

blizz needs to start season to see their dps meters or something

[runic trail]

While there's issues that go beyond being fixed with aura tweaks, overall balance can be sorted pretty easily so, its fine

[steel zinc]

ptr rn is a simulated season. You have people timing 20 keys with hc gear. Also you had a raid testing. So they have enough deta imo

[graceful crown]

yeah

[steel zinc]

problem is most tuning happens after rwf and then still something falls under the cracks. Dev evoker is the most broken raid spec since after rwf tuning

[graceful crown]

atleast is so boring to play that is one of the least played class so thats their balance

[steel zinc]

all 3 rogue specs play fine imo

just it baffles me that a dps only class gets so screwed this exp

[graceful crown]

assa is so/so for me, but yeah

[steel zinc]

its not like dh where I can just go tank and push for title since its omega meta

same goes for dk. Dogshit in Raid BiS in M+

[graceful crown]

vdh meta again, i guess

how beautiful

that helps rogue too

I wish I wasn't as competitive as I am and could play rogue comfortably, but to play m+ with pugs at high level, i have to go meta...

i dont have a good premade after 15s

they just stop playing

[hollow spear]

A new day 🌞 , a beautiful morning ☕ and..
more Mapko sim list and balance dooming?

[umbral topaz]

Its good being shit tuned at first, then you might not get nuked from orbit, might get buffs!
Who am i kidding? We play rogue they never gonna remember to do anything for us

[daring marlin]

Rogue is pure dps class, at least 1 spec is gonna be meta right?

[chrome palm]

By definition in raid yes

[umbral topaz]

Always 1 rogue spot, but only 1 for a reason

[chrome palm]

One spec will be the meta since you’ll run rogue

What I don’t get

[umbral topaz]

If its assa again i might gouge out my eyes

[chrome palm]

Is that Atrophic stacks, but you never see double rogue

[umbral topaz]

If its outlaw i'll reroll tho, so could be worse than aassa

[chrome palm]

So would it be so bad to have no rogue?

It was sub this tier wym

[daring marlin]

I bet none of the dks in my guild saw any rogue spec in their m+ groups

[haughty mural]

Rotten also got fixed ? As in the munching of a stack ?

[steel zinc]

ya

like 2 weeks ago on ptr

[short radish]

nah the rogue is an optional spot. there's no reason to limit the rogue spot to only 1 since the debuff stacks

[chrome palm]

Thats what I’m saying

[steel zinc]

yes!!!

😄

[daring marlin]

I saw some statistics regarding mythic gallywix kill where 3-5% of the groups had no monk or warrior

[haughty mural]

Ah was on vacation at that time - missed it
Thanks

[hollow spear]

If there's a reliable way to apply poisons and atrophic works, the damage reduction is quite valuable

[short radish]

honestly though as long as we are middle of the pack

thats good enough

just play better than the rest of the raid

[daring marlin]

The number rises up to 40% for rogues

[chrome palm]

40%?

[hollow spear]

Imo, the 40% isn't even balance related mostly

[daring marlin]

40% of the mythic gallywix kills had no rogues

[hollow spear]

People just don't like playing rogue

[graceful crown]

Blizz are doing more hotfixes for pandaria classic than retail ptr

[short radish]

yeah see, the rogue buff is so optional

[chrome palm]

More like they don’t have a reason to

[short radish]

who cares about less damage taken

[steel zinc]

yeah rogue is for any guild where you have like 18% dmg healing buff near useless

its great for early prog

[short radish]

overhealing is like 40%

[hollow spear]

It's a bleeding edge kinda thing

[steel zinc]

most prog guilds are looking for rogues

[hollow spear]

During rwf it's op imo

[steel zinc]

ya t he buff is op in rwf

same as paladin aura

[short radish]

yeah

[chrome palm]

Erm akshully dr is better than healing ☝️ 🤓

[short radish]

though hpal is good for aura mastery

as a defensive

[stoic marten]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[runic trail]

I just need to eat less paste than the rest of my raid team. Its fine my spot is safe

[steel zinc]

yeah but you always bring a paladin mostly tank recently for the buff same as rogue

[hollow spear]

A lot of guilds are recruiting for rogues, there's just not enough of them

Why play rogue, when can play ret pal?

[runic trail]

So what you're saying is, I have a chance to escape the RFWL trenches?

[steel zinc]

yeah as rogue you can get pretty easy in a top guild

[short radish]

dont worry im sure blizzard will notice the lack of people playing rogue and give rogue a lot of love to make people want to try out the class

[chrome palm]

I looked at parses a bit ago and rogue is quite a bit less popular than evoker even

[short radish]

yes. and its fucking great playing for half the tier and then taking the other half tier off

[chrome palm]

And evoker has two awful specs in raid

[steel zinc]

also sub and outlaw are not faceroll to play. If you screw up with these specs or god forbid die as outlaw its joever

[hollow spear]

And sub rogue is the kid that gets bullied

[daring marlin]

How do i enjoy rogue? Is something wrong with me

[runic trail]

At least this tier my guild technically wasn't rfwl so, I get a break

Killed 2 weeks before RFWL happened

[hollow spear]

It's called Stockholm syndrome, some kind of condition

[umbral topaz]

You dont enjoy rogue, you just play it

[chrome palm]

for me it’s probably the 1s gcd combined with the general aesthetic

[hollow spear]

Some odd 15 years ago I made a rogue and I cannot not play it

Even with other games

If there's anything remotely rogueish, I play it

[runic trail]

Every time I try another class I don't click with it and come crawling back

I'm stuck here

[short radish]

i really fucking hate past me

[gilded jungle]

Next patch M0 are they daily reset or weekly?

[short radish]

thinking that rogues were cool

because i was angsty and emo

[umbral topaz]

Well i recently tried mage a bit, and it feels less like a slap in the face to play it.
But its not rogue tho....

[runic trail]

Moroes taking swipes at fimb

[hollow spear]

I wish past me had room temperature IQ and picked BM hunter

[short radish]

im going to get a telling off again

[runic trail]

Saw a message for a split second before it got nuked

[hollow spear]

I thought I had a stroke

Good to know

So far, Monroe hasn't kicked me yet

[chrome palm]

Naughty boy

[hollow spear]

What do I have to do to make him?

Fimbul seems to have expert knowledge

[north schooner]

worry not, with midnight sub gets a permanent shadow that does 70% of the spec's damage

[runic trail]

Moroes has slapped me down a few times for dropping the c word

[short radish]

ye thats what i did

[runic trail]

Its a good word

[hollow spear]

Fimbul is handicapped tbh

He's an aussie

[runic trail]

Real

[hollow spear]

They can't not swear

Kinda discriminatory

[short radish]

really moroes is just being racist to me

[hollow spear]

Culturally insensitive robot

[runic trail]

When's the server getting an Aussie role. It exempts you from certain filters but also makes sure the Aussies are known so we can keep track of them

[hollow spear]

IF Aussie THEN allow swearwords

Easy coding

I'm an expert

[short radish]

but yeah i was the exact same

made a thief in maple story

like 20 years ago

acutally no, i made a warrior first in maple story

then i was like

NAHH

THIEVES AND ROGEUS ARE COOL

THEY THROW SHURIKENS

so i rerolled that

[tall girder]

Based

[short radish]

and then my path was set in stone there

every single other game that has had a rogue

ive had to roll rogue

or thiefe

wooooo jontic

[tall girder]

WOOOOOOOOO FIMB!

[steel zinc]

tbf its subs gameplay that no other class has. I even tried other 90 sec specs like warrior and arcane

[stiff remnant]

yo yo... how's it looking? does 1 spec seem to be stronger than the rest? or fairly balanced?

[chrome palm]

Balanced amongst ourselves mid at best overall

[stiff remnant]

ty kind sir

[chrome palm]

Check again in 2 weeks :^)

[young mural]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[steel zinc]

Then buffs 100%

[chrome palm]

Wonder if they end up doing a sec tech buff and tier nerf

[young mural]

and there i was, thinking it would be a subtlety tier 💔

[steel zinc]

prob flurry buff and sectech buff

both like 10%

[clever delta]

cope

[chrome palm]

Most people seem to think it will be

[steel zinc]

some fights you play assa

[clever delta]

fuck assa

[chrome palm]

True believers will remain sub (I swapped for mugzee and gally)

[young mural]

I mean, not an absurd of cleave like this raid where you had to perfectly time your CDs to compete against a dragon or a hunter

[chrome palm]

Damage amps on 3 bosses

Also yes there is a lot of cleave

[young mural]

feels like sub's single target might be more valuable in this raid compared to undermine

[steel zinc]

4 endboss too

2nd 4th nexus king and endboss

[young mural]

oh this is going to be juicy

[chrome palm]

2nd boss has an amp?

[steel zinc]

50% 25% more damage whole phase

so kinda yeah

[chrome palm]

Oh

That doesn’t really benefit sub

[steel zinc]

so half the fight has a damage amp

I know

[chrome palm]

That’s an assa amp

For sure

[steel zinc]

yeah but the fight is w/e

[chrome palm]

Yeah who knows

[steel zinc]

dagger dropps their

versa mastery dagger

[chrome palm]

Maybe damage check on the wall will be significant

Probably not

[carmine portal]

Any knowledge on whether we have a "dinar" vendor this patch?

[young mural]

oh true, we're getting our mythic daggers pretty early, 2nd boss drops em

[chrome palm]

2nd boss also drops a good trinket and a really good off piece

On the slot we want off piece

[steel zinc]

yeah I will most likely still craft since you play crafted dagger in oh as assa even in bis profile

[young mural]

idk, seems to me like at least at the very start of patch sub will dominate, just like it did at start of LOU

[steel zinc]

yeah 2nd boss you play all the rogues

[chrome palm]

Maybe less so since we don’t have transmitter any more

Sub got a 10% buff at the start of that tier

[young mural]

oh true lmao

that trinket pissed me off bad

[chrome palm]

It could be the case that we get a baseline buff like last tier

[steel zinc]

and then week one again a nerf to sectech etc so 5%

[mighty citrus]

jump 3 times

[chrome palm]

And we see a repeat of us being strong early

[young mural]

really hope so

they nerfed 3x our tier set, nerfed sec tech all before patch dropped

and sub was still dominating with 675 daggers + transmitter

[chrome palm]

Yeah that was a crazy combo early on

But like by the end of the 2nd week it was well over

[young mural]

yhea

[chrome palm]

Even 1st week tbh

[young mural]

sub got uber fucked

[chrome palm]

Normal mode gods

[young mural]

we even got a 15% buff mid season

still worse than sin

[steel zinc]

because they cared about prepatch week in raid

[alpine wraith]

the nerf to tier set was so big because it killed our identity

[young mural]

😭

[alpine wraith]

even if they buffed baseline after

we could have been super good on more bosses

[young mural]

this was tragic

[steel zinc]

we need a buff to baseline no meme other classes are insane. And I do not mean niche like a boomkin on stix or multidotter on forgeboss next tier

[alpine wraith]

and the tier set was bugged the whole tier too

they just cba'd

[young mural]

boomkin was insane in PTR 2 weeks ago

[chrome palm]

This seems to be the case imo

They gave mm so much in their recent rework

[young mural]

screenshot from 2 weeks ago, 2nd boss

[chrome palm]

So they end up being super strong

[steel zinc]

that was more or less a bug abuse

[young mural]

oh kek

wasnt aware

[steel zinc]

you hold your starsurge and then just the whole damage in your cds accumulated to an omega starsurge. Kinda like our sectech works as class just way more cooked.

Like going bear form to get versa for that amp etc

[alpine wraith]

yea the diff is they can send 5 starsurges

and we have 1 sec tech

[steel zinc]

it was a bug its now fixed

[alpine wraith]

although tbh the double coup and sec tech go quite hard

[young mural]

thats insane

[alpine wraith]

sadly mastery stack is quite behind normal gear this time

[young mural]

going for the ursine vigor buff is nuts lmao

[alpine wraith]

so it will have to be a later raid endeavour

rip circe

[young mural]

yhea, why is that happening?

feels like mastery's DR is so low this season

[alpine wraith]

we lose circe mostly and stacking mastery was already behind

[young mural]

or we have too much stats, idk

[alpine wraith]

well we just have lots of stats

so getting to like 35k mastery

is just not worth

better spread it to other stats

and get way more dps

[young mural]

yhea, im sitting at 18k-19k mastery on sub and sim is already telling me to get crit

well, nothing is final at this moment

just really really hoping to get to play a real and true sub season

[alpine wraith]

yea i will just craft things at the end of the season kinda to have fun in dungeons

[chrome palm]

I had to swap off rogue for amirdrassil

So I’m hoping for the same thing lmao

[alpine wraith]

maybe crafted engi wrist for the permapot

[young mural]

really? i thought rogues were good that season

[alpine wraith]

they were fine

[young mural]

2 assassins topped the echo 1st kill

[alpine wraith]

but not huge

[chrome palm]

They were really good

[young mural]

oh i gotcha

[chrome palm]

Smolderon was peak sub

[alpine wraith]

well assa got slammed first 2 weeks

[young mural]

thats sad that you had to change during a great season 🙁

[chrome palm]

But my guild I just joined didn’t have a fucking priest

So I had to play my shadow alt IN AMIRDRASSIL

[alpine wraith]

in the end we were like top 3 in smold but also because of silly things like PI etc

[young mural]

S3 DF was peak rogue imo

[alpine wraith]

if you highrolled you were still top dog

nah

[young mural]

thats where i started really playing rogue, and thats the best i've seen rogue perform

[alpine wraith]

i hated that tier set so much same with the SL s3 one

rng gamba ass set

[young mural]

yhea i hate that

i really like the consistancy of this season's tierset

[chrome palm]

That set and echoing reprimand

[young mural]

oh ffs

echoing reprimand was the reason i didnt play outlaw during df s3

[chrome palm]

And old sht

Get me out

[young mural]

shit ass talent

but i gotta admit, even though i played like a clown with invigorating shadowdust, i still miss being able to just get my CDs whenever I wanted

[vale pine]

dust had a very cool dynamic to it also with defensives

[young mural]

exactly

[chrome palm]

Make dance cdr cdr cloak too plz

Dk ams already better in many cases

[young mural]

while playing, i thought it was really hard to master, but i was having FUN with shadowdust

[steel zinc]

dust was overdesigned for the current wow imo

I liked it just comapred to other classes

[young mural]

yhea, that style of gameplay is definitely not what blizzard wants for wow 2.0

"modern wow" or whatever

subtlety rogue rocks

i almost got sucked into the arcane mage pipeline

but sub is just too cool

BTW

are we getting ANY changes to rotation/cooldown sequence?

or just the exact same

[chrome palm]

Storm between coup in blades is all

[young mural]

oh

so we're back to stacking danse

in ST?

[chrome palm]

No it’s so you don’t lose a stack of escalating blade

St and aoe yeah

[young mural]

yhea now im confused

[chrome palm]

New tier gives lets you cast coup after casting coup

[young mural]

yhea

[chrome palm]

It does this by keeping your escalating blade at 4 stacks for 5 seconds

[alpine wraith]

basically you dont want to proc any unseens

[chrome palm]

If you trigger unseen blade after pressing coup, before doing the second coup, you are already at maximum escalating blade, so it doesn’t build it

[alpine wraith]

specially from sec tech as those are 100%

[chrome palm]

So you storm to avoid using your unseen blade

[young mural]

ahh

nice

you keep your ICD

got it

[alpine wraith]

so ideally what you do is stab sec tech proc shadowcraft coup storm coup

[young mural]

oh thats juicy

[alpine wraith]

as we already hold coup and some sht for the flag situation

[young mural]

we might even be able to fit the 2nd sec tech into a first dance no?

because of the extra CDR

[chrome palm]

Yes

[alpine wraith]

only in first dance a normal one no

[young mural]

oh hell yhea

[chrome palm]

With lust and skyfury especially

[young mural]

oh thats going to feel nice

[alpine wraith]

i want to try to check more if using trinkets/blades a bit later is better

to get it on 2nd and 3rd sec tech

instead of 1st and 2nd

but the timing is a bit weird

[chrome palm]

You are desyncing yourself though

[young mural]

max flag max danse max flawless form giga ultra cold blooded sec tech

[chrome palm]

Maybe if you’re running the forge trinket

Since its desynced anyways

[alpine wraith]

you are not desyncing if you use it at the same time every time

remember how dust worked

?

if you use flag then use blades 7 or 6 secs later every time it is not desync it is just changing usage

[young mural]

yhea im with you on this, if you do the same exact cooldown sequence 1min 30sec later, youre not going to desync

[chrome palm]

Yes but the benefit is severely diminished outside of first blades

[alpine wraith]

no even after first blades it is very likely you can triple dance

and still get 2 and 3 inside the things

even more as prism is stronger

but i need to try to check it more

[young mural]

is the forge trinket 2min?

[alpine wraith]

doing it on dummies is hard because no skyfury

it is unlikely we run forge

[chrome palm]

Yeah it’s surprisingly strong

[alpine wraith]

as it is very competitive with others

but prism we can kinda steal

unless you get it on vault

[young mural]

as soon as i saw 40k primary stat i tought it was for sure going to be our BiS

[steel zinc]

you will not get forged even if you do 4 splits since rogue is so low in prio

[alpine wraith]

yea it will be rare

[steel zinc]

we are the only spec that really wants prism

so be happy

[young mural]

🙁

oh ok

[alpine wraith]

but maybe the TW or 4 dungeon weekly gives it

[young mural]

im happy

🙂

[chrome palm]

They often do trinket tuning so who knows

If no one wants prism they maybe buff

[young mural]

where can i find new trinket sims for sub?

[chrome palm]

It’s kinda the best scenario because anything they do with prism is a buff to sub

[young mural]

Yhea, since no one wants it, its pretty likely to get buffed and not nerfed

[chrome palm]

They might also just nerf the anvil

It is gonna make signet of the priory look like a joke

[alpine wraith]

biggest buff to prism would be upping the stacks

so we could do a super snapper at 3 mins

[young mural]

wait, im outdated here

just came back, stopped playing as soon as turbo boost started

is finality build worse on ST compared to rotten now?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wA6MsM3dUtaMqVeRN2xhjB rotten (M+ build)

[alpine wraith]

finality has a bug with coup

[young mural]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/n9wjLw5EB9JY8hxbYhC27A (finality st build)

[alpine wraith]

it used to not be that big but now with tier set doing lots more to coup

it is more noticeable

so we just dont play it kinda

[young mural]

oh im talking about season 2 stuff still lol

[alpine wraith]

the finality change is retroactive too

[young mural]

ah gotcha

[alpine wraith]

so it got added to simc it was like -30k rn

but next tier it is like 80k+ dps

so it swings more

[young mural]

nice, ty hacha

you guys are really updated on sub stuff, nice work

ty for help

[chrome palm]

Nothing else to do with wow

[young mural]

ive been jumping around dornogal for days now

just waiting

[chrome palm]

Lol

[chrome palm]

https://youtu.be/tapCjTA2E9Q?feature=shared
me in dorn waiting for the new patch

[young mural]

literally me LMAO

spec is joke

2nd best trinket still is myth transmitter 😭

[hollow spear]

I'm on the make pre disorienting strike baseline train

It will never reach its destination tho

[young mural]

what about the shadowstrike bug

when will they fix it

the bug where at start of fights when you try shadowstriking and get absolutely fucked out of your combo points?

[chrome palm]

I’ve never experienced that before

[hollow spear]

Don't know about that one either

[young mural]

huh

ill try to clip it and send it here

might be a ping issue, since i play with 150ms

[alpine wraith]

you can get put in combat and out of stealth

and because we dont run subterfuge you cant strike

so you would need to stab yea

[hollow spear]

If they're on the same bind that shouldn't matter too much

You're losing a strike, but still get full cp from premed

[young mural]

yhea it generally doesnt affect dps much, its just weird to hear the shadowstrike sound and animation but no combo points

[haughty mural]

Will we play prism as 1.5min trinket ?

[hollow spear]

Yes

[young mural]

hey colo just a heads up im about to nearly copy your profile pic

[hollow spear]

And it automatically gains value if you have to hold

Nearly?

[haughty mural]

That’s true

Opener will be kinda meh, no?

[young mural]

yhea see

almost same thing

lol

[hollow spear]

Opener will have a hint of wet noodle

[haughty mural]

[steel zinc]

yeah you just send it no matter the stacks during your cds

its 20 sec

it has outside of your cds a random dmg proc and yeah on your first pull your do not have any amp

[sage pond]

why do I see logs with people playing First Dance on Mythic Gally? I thought that thing only works out of combat so you only get 4 seconds in first dance extra?

[steel zinc]

its bis until like 5 min

if the fight last longer wm is better

and you will play it next patch with tier nearly no matter what

[sage pond]

thanks I wasnt aware! ❤️

[haughty mural]

Did they not buff lily yet ?

[steel zinc]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9fV4VgVGW8qNHAsTUaCocA

trinket sims

every trinket combo st

[haughty mural]

Thanks

[young mural]

So next season we're going no rotten no finality? or just ignore talent build

[steel zinc]

you play rotten on cleave

they are all very close

their is also a cook for m+ with no shadowcraft

#subtlety message

[young mural]

this talent build is weird, running planned execution

[steel zinc]

you run it already now on sprocket

[young mural]

you gotta be shitting me

[steel zinc]

run this to "normal" talents

its the same dps

[young mural]

tea next season?

💀

[steel zinc]

in m+ ya

dont see why not

[young mural]

and drop what for it? CB?

[steel zinc]

yes and shadowcraft if you have a shaman

this assumes you have tier etc

[young mural]

yhea

susge

[steel zinc]

nah I played some higher keys on ptr with it

its really good

[young mural]

how does tea work

[steel zinc]

bind it to dance

[young mural]

just let it drink it for you? macro to dance?

ah ok

[steel zinc]

macro it to dance and forget

[leaden prairie]

you drop shadowcraft?

[young mural]

ah perfect

[steel zinc]

#subtlety message

[young mural]

yhea zac people are doing sus shit on PTR

[steel zinc]

yes you drop it with a shaman

[young mural]

i dont like it 🙁

[leaden prairie]

??

[young mural]

im scared

[steel zinc]

for m+ you dont play shadowcraft

its dark brew build

you have so many dances as sub with the new tier

its eleems build and its really good imo

check the link from the channel

[leaden prairie]

Sub dropping the only fun and interactive talent they have is peak ngl

[steel zinc]

its kinda like df s1 just with blade flurry 😄

[leaden prairie]

so cringe

i would riot if i was a sub player

[young mural]

yhea sucks to suck ig

[leaden prairie]

good thing im not and i can just ignore the spec

[young mural]

we get fucked again

[hollow spear]

You're French, zac. Rioting is in your nature..

[young mural]

idk, i want to play it to test how it feels

[leaden prairie]

tell me this wont ever be a thing in st

[young mural]

but seems weird

[steel zinc]

it isnt weird

idk

[young mural]

what am i going to do

without my little gun sound

how am i supposed to function without my silenced pistol shot sound

[hollow spear]

The difference between that build and the one we're running rn is quite minor afaik

[steel zinc]

in aoe no

[hollow spear]

You're also losing quite a bit of prio

[steel zinc]

you have way more sustained dmg

prio kekw

[hollow spear]

The difference on bosses is noticeable

[steel zinc]

you played it on ptr?

If not I can share u unlisted dome 15 run

you still do very good st just you have way more sustained aoe

the build will be played with a shaman

[hollow spear]

It would be interesting to see how much of that sustained/overall damage is on shitter mobs

[young mural]

actually insane

[steel zinc]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bBjWWGZFUppMVyWbcXWH3f rn on live

[young mural]

what the fuck is going on with spec

[steel zinc]

its talent compared

[alpine wraith]

as you get more resources you can take off resource talents

?¿

nothing special or magic about it

as you get more crit 100% crit on one ability is not as good

once again nothing special

[young mural]

yhea -0.1% on the planned execution one

compared to "standard" finality pure ST

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/42?boss=3013&class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety

I went to check, everyone is using finality, but it really really doesnt matter lol

[alpine wraith]

finality has been bugged with coup since the beginning of the expansion

just the impact was not as big

it just got added because it was going to be more important next tier

and it is kinda neutral rn

but it wont be next tier

[young mural]

yhea more coup more bug more dps loss

nice ty blizz

[alpine wraith]

yea also ask blizz why our tier set was bugged the whole tier

and they cba

who needs to do dps right

[young mural]

no way

what is bugged about our current tierset?

[hollow spear]

What was the predisorienting string again?

[alpine wraith]

new one is also bugged but at least it is not as annoying

you use sec tech before a fight begins

and you keep the 2 unseens

as for tier set bug

[hollow spear]

Wonder what the difference is when you include predisorienting

[alpine wraith]

you have a % chance for sec tech to not be buffed by 4p

[steel zinc]

sectech sth and dont bs or strike

[hollow spear]

Nah

For sjms

[alpine wraith]

so in dance using sec tech the hits can randomly decide to not be buffed by tier

[hollow spear]

Ryldd had something to make it include predisorienting in your sim

[young mural]

lmao

[alpine wraith]

pre disorient can be quite big

[steel zinc]

yeah I forgot but its like below 0.3%

[young mural]

sorry for noob question but what is predisorienting?

[alpine wraith]

but not as much if you run prism

[steel zinc]

disorienting strikes

trickster talent

[young mural]

ah got it

[hollow spear]

You get to prestack 2 by sectecing something before pull

[hollow spear]

Which makes you get coup earlier

[young mural]

lmao

so now we gotta sec tech + symbols prepull

💀

[hollow spear]

Aye

[void ocean]

what do u get to prepull sec tech

that turnip toy? 😄

[alpine wraith]

you cant use those in raid

[hollow spear]

Nah, you yank one out before you wipe

[young mural]

yhea idk also

[alpine wraith]

but you can go outside and do it anywhere

[young mural]

get one before wipe or on trash before boss

it persists through death??

[hollow spear]

It's basically evasion/cloak and pray for cdr

[hollow spear]

Yes

[young mural]

nice

[void ocean]

pog

[young mural]

new pre-wipe strat

[hollow spear]

Wait for them to fix it

[young mural]

stacking escalating blades and standing in a corner

you can theoretically stack 4 escalating blades no?

or do they reset to 2 on pull

[chrome palm]

disorienting strikes stacks to 2

it wont go further than that

[young mural]

what if, i sec tech, wait 60 sec, sec tech again and then pull?

its really not doable but, im thinking theoretically here

[steel zinc]

you would if that happend just nuke everything

no

its like stacking supercharges

it goes down to 2

[young mural]

ah ok

[steel zinc]

imagine rogue stacking 2000000000 supercharges and disorienting strikes

you could in burst oneshot bosses

[young mural]

why wont they let a bug like that pass through

for 1hr at least

i want to 1 shot things

[steel zinc]

I mean they fixed on ptr the best bug

trickster was the best raid buff

[leaden prairie]

they fixed it for outlaw

btw

[alpine wraith]

also im not sure if it persists through death btw

[steel zinc]

made every melee not parry

[hollow spear]

Predisorienting?

[leaden prairie]

Yep

No fucking clue why

And how

[hollow spear]

How can they fix it for you and not for us

[leaden prairie]

Or maybe actually

[steel zinc]

hey gotta fix sub differently

[leaden prairie]

Now that I think about it

Maybe it's just ptr is a bit diff

[hollow spear]

Haven't tried it for a while

[leaden prairie]

The bubble in ptr is different

It's like a full wipe of your character

When you enter

So maybe they haven't actually fixed it

[hollow spear]

Hmm

Yeah I guess

[leaden prairie]

Like on ptr I lose loaded dice in the bubble but that's not a thing on live

So maybe I'm capping and it's not fixed actually

[hollow spear]

You think they'll go for that full wipe on release?

[leaden prairie]

I should have tried in raid

[leaden prairie]

No that's an old ptr thing

Cause it scales your level up

It does weird things

[hollow spear]

True

[leaden prairie]

Like you lose 2 cps, you lose some stuffs that you don't lose on live

Your stats reshuffle and shit

It's diffy

[hollow spear]

Predisorienting on ptr really makes it quite likely to get consistent 2nd sectecs in your first dance

It's already possible on live, but a little too tight most of the time

[young mural]

hey dudes, i managed to clip the shadowstrike bug i was talking about. breaks stealth, fucks up my bars for a sec causing a delay on opener

i get this a lot

[graceful crown]

you re using a macro?

if u have like a /startattack you lose stealth

[young mural]

oh shit

[graceful crown]

yep

it happened to me too

[young mural]

might have that on my backstab/shadowstrike macro lmao

[graceful crown]

yeah haha

thats disgusting

[leaden prairie]

its also useless

[young mural]

tyvm! i was getting very annoyed with it

[leaden prairie]

cause your melee spells automatically start attack

[graceful crown]

i used it coz shadowstrike have range

[young mural]

bruh why the fuck

[graceful crown]

but is not needed

[young mural]

did i make these

[graceful crown]

haha

yeah

[leaden prairie]

its only useful for ranged spells

cause they dont auto target

so bte or ps

[graceful crown]

yeah

[leaden prairie]

nothing else for rogue

[graceful crown]

now, u re good to go :-D

[young mural]

tyvm people

lmao

game was registering the /stackattack before shadowstrike, taking me out of stealth and therefore not casting shadowstrike since im not stealthed

once again, ty @graceful crown and @leaden prairie you saved me

[leaden prairie]

np

[young mural]

sorry for not crediting correctly

[graceful crown]

np man

i tried too as a sub a year ago and forgot to delete it, and i was losing premeditation all the time without knowing why

[young mural]

yhea that experience is sad

btw, we start BP on 7 or 8 targets?

me forgot

[graceful crown]

at 11.2 we gonna use it at 3+ or 5+ i think

[young mural]

what about now? O_O im catching up

[graceful crown]

with find weakness active

i mean if 3 have FW we use bp

[steel zinc]

in blades +3 targets outside blades +5 if fw is up

[graceful crown]

thats it

[young mural]

this is 11.2 right?

[steel zinc]

nah thats now

and 11.2

[young mural]

what

damn

[steel zinc]

might be 11.2 because of bp buff

[graceful crown]

oh wowers thought it was for 11.2

[young mural]

im really fucking it up then

[graceful crown]

i stopped speccing to sub 2 months ago so didnt know is playable like that now

[steel zinc]

I am self confused since the season is for me dead sicne ptr is up and I am just full in 11.2

and knowledge of 11.1 doesnt matter that much rn

[young mural]

lmao and youre 100% correct on doing that

11.1 has ran its course a while ago

thats why i quit mid season and am catching up on changes now xD

[steel zinc]

yeah remember with 3 targets blades and 5 bp if fw is up

easy to remember

this works day 1 when the patch goes live

[young mural]

nice, good to know

[graceful crown]

i hate bp animation but it is what it is

[young mural]

i actually missed pressing it during s2 lol

[graceful crown]

its like u re not damaging anything and just throwing powder

btw sad that even if we are tricksters we use bp in our aoe rotation

u_u

[chrome palm]

time to sandbag boys

his tier list will never be the same

[graceful crown]

time to go

haha

[young mural]

at start of S2, people were recommending pressing BP and shuriken storm (with rotten) on 7+ targets iirc

[graceful crown]

petko tier list sub s+

[steel zinc]

are you streaming?

[steel zinc]

its actually lowest spot

so we gotta get buffs now

[chrome palm]

i am not

[graceful crown]

haha

[young mural]

good luck soldier, hope you can honor our spec

[chrome palm]

i am playing tea build

:-)

[graceful crown]

do low dmg messer

we need buffs

[chrome palm]

dont need to tell me

[steel zinc]

with no sc?

[graceful crown]

<3

[steel zinc]

with no shaman

[young mural]

needing a shaman to play an alternate build is so bad

[steel zinc]

I mean if not ur losing like 3% overall

its not like be all end all

on messer is in petkos stream

kekw

[young mural]

ooo

[hollow spear]

If we don't get at least get a 5%aura buff on release, I will personally hold you accountable, Messerknecht

[young mural]

lemme check

what

was he booted?

[steel zinc]

rip

idk

[young mural]

yhea idk also

[graceful crown]

okay good job messer

now we get buffs

[astral axle]

xd yeah he was the problem with the group

[graceful crown]

a true sub never can try

[young mural]

what is this deserter debuff we're going to have? does anyone know how long does it last?

[shadow snow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[graceful crown]

30 minutes

[young mural]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/mythic-leavers-finally-penalized-with-new-deserter-system-coming-in-season-3-377286

[steel zinc]

its a nothing burger

[young mural]

found it

[chrome palm]

sc but no cb

[young mural]

im gettin flagged on the DAILY

[chrome palm]

🐸

[north schooner]

ptr is like 70% deserters

[graceful crown]

wowers

[young mural]

petko GOAT

[chrome palm]

i lowkey forgot about our "impressive package" i couldve saved him

[hollow spear]

I knew you were to blame

Should have put your impressive package to a better use

[young mural]

uhhh

lemme get a screenshot of that impressive package?

[chrome palm]

😖

[young mural]

thats a good one blizz

[hollow spear]

Wdym Blizz

[young mural]

WHO said that?

[hollow spear]

Icy Veins

[young mural]

oh boy

[hollow spear]

Eleem told them about his impressive package, probably

Allegedly

He's typing

https://tenor.com/view/chuckles-im-in-danger-ralph-simpson-meme-gif-16042439

[young mural]

eleem just

vanished

well gotta sleep boys

good luck out there and good night

[chrome palm]

WHAT is happening

[young mural]

dude flood chat gpt

wtf

[runic trail]

The robot is on our side

[young mural]

lets train the AI to always say that sub is under performing and needs a buff

cant go wrong

[north schooner]

feed chat gpt anti-rogue propaganda

[sacred yarrow]

feed chatgpt rogue is always best on first 2 weeks of every season and then dies out and then people come argue here about it

[runic trail]

Add it to the rogue discord

[north schooner]

send it to purgatory (assa chat)

[runic trail]

I thought that was outlaw chat

[hollow spear]

Let it comb through Mapko's and scath's message history

And it will propose to delete the spec

To end the suffering

[runic trail]

Nah we'll feed it saifu's stats instead

[sacred yarrow]

honest question, are discord servers fed to chapgpt?

[north schooner]

also force it to read the entirety of mafic's post history

[hollow spear]

Wouldn't be surprised

[hollow spear]

It might just error out

Maybe mafic is AI that went rogue

Not sure what the I stands for though, cannot be intelligence if we're talking about mafic

[north schooner]

is it considered torture if you do that to an AI?

[hollow spear]

If it isn't, it should be

[lilac stag]

I think mine would be more begging of the dev to actually look at it combined with they don’t know wtf they’re doing.

[hollow spear]

Maybe AI will convinced the dev to fix our bugs

[lilac stag]

or doggo pictures

[hollow spear]

Microsoft is really pushing for AI

So it might be an angle

[lilac stag]

I mean the CS for player issues is clippy + copilot

[hollow spear]

Train Microsoft's AI to consider sub bug fixes a top priority for their bottom line

[lilac stag]

I think I preferred it when it took 3 days to get an initial response

[hollow spear]

I just pray that I'll never have issues

[alpine wraith]

same i have seen the horrors

[lilac stag]

renown stuck at 2499 did me in.

[hollow spear]

Maybe the chance that there's a god that hears my prayers is higher than a human actually looking at my problem

[lilac stag]

all that shit and dealing with it pushed my view of heh I enjoy this game to they don’t give a fuck and it’s me wanting to enjoy the game more than I am

we’ll see how this tier goes

[keen dome]

Hopefully it goes well.

It's very purple

[hollow spear]

I don't really let all of that jank affect how I enjoy the game

In the end, I enjoy playing the raids with a group of mostly friendly people

Looking forward to a higher level of activity when the patch/raid launches

[lilac stag]

it starts compounding. RS was draining.

and I’ll make no bones about it. I enjoy raiding and that’s about it. So slamming keys out of raid really does not put a smile on my face. Then dealing with what should be a simple database search & fix for an entire tier that affects raid performance. Not a great place.

guildies make keys tolerable. Pug weekly’s are pain

[subtle jay]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[opaque valve]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[placid elk]

sub meta 11.2 you heard it here

chat gpt can't even be a legit scrub, he's too polite

[runic trail]

Ask it what it thinks about shuriken storm casts in between coups

[leaden prairie]

why did it fire a shot at outlaw dude

[placid elk]

oh man he gave me an essay longer than wowhead guides.

[placid elk]

he's afraid

[runic trail]

The AI was inspired by outlaws gun gameplay and wanted to shoot back

[placid elk]

how long until people who ask for log reviews will be sent to chatgpt?

[runic trail]

...I kind of want the chatgpt wowanalyser treatment now

[nova cairn]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[placid elk]

hmm. i dont have recent subtlety logs, i can send him an assa log from first 2-3 weeks of the season

[runic trail]

Do it, maybe the ai is cooking

[placid elk]

ah man they dont let him in

[runic trail]

Damn

[merry agate]

The casual front directed at outlaw

[void ocean]

was sayin this forever

[merry agate]

Playing at a level we cant even comprehend...

Chatgpt found the secret unicorn goremaw build

[void ocean]

yea, cb+goremaw, Sod, SoD, Dance...

[short radish]

gloomblade

[void ocean]

flag into blades before the second dance ends

[merry agate]

[hollow spear]

Outlaw can't catch a break

[slate lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/dozens-of-us-there-are-dozens-of-us-dozens-arrested-development-arrested-development-dozens-gif-18162954729757007693

[nova cairn]

Outlaw always gets slander

[hazy breach]

I thought yall were dooming

[tepid trellis]

depends on the lunar cycle

[vale pine]

not sure what it means tho

[steel zinc]

We are it's joever

No dmg Amp will save us

[hazy breach]

I was referring to the outLaws

[steel zinc]

No wf will make us

No 5 roll will shake us

Eleem why do we need wf for the No sc build for m+?

[hazy breach]

You dont

[tepid trellis]

outlaw is meta every tier, its time for them to be shit for one

[steel zinc]

Hot take outlaw should be a tank spec

[void ocean]

enough with the damn tank specs 😄

we need less specs not more

i will die on that hill... and bring a few ppl with me

[grand wyvern]

Outlaw should be reworked, they could call it Combat

[steel zinc]

That's some wild take.

[crystal bone]

even in the famous patch launch guide outlaw catchin strays

[steel zinc]

I mean it's a fact. Outlaw is a relatively new spec and has not much in cmon with old combat

[chrome palm]

i totally thought you meant supercharger

i wasnt using shadowcraft

honestly burst in aoe doesnt seem that different in that build compared to the normal one

at least on bigger pulls

[north schooner]

relatively new: 2016

[shell willow]

Lol a decade

[steel zinc]

Shadowcraft mb

I think sustained aoe is way higher without shadowcraft

[steel zinc]

Thanks now I feel old and got more grad hair you young whippresnapper

[slate marlin]

I convinced kush to play no shadowcraft build earlier

and he went deathstslker -.-

[steel zinc]

Oh nice

[steel zinc]

[slate marlin]

No cdr or flawless form is a decision

for sure

wpuld have been so much better with trickster

[steel zinc]

Yeah the deathstalkers mark is so poorly to play with

[haughty mural]

Does it really sim higher ? 😭

[steel zinc]

Idk why people are sad if the new tier enables us to have more sustained aoe

[hollow spear]

He imported a build tho, where the heck did he get that from then

[slate marlin]

I linked it

he copied

then last second he changed to ds

thsts on him

[lilac stag]

More rng. More krangled in ST.

[swift tinsel]

intrusive thoughts won

[hollow spear]

He tried to sandbag

[swift tinsel]

[slate marlin]

Ds isnt sandbagging is raw dagging depression

[hollow spear]

Does that mean we're due for a Brazilian waxing?

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

Tea bagging with a more textured surface

[slate marlin]

Tea bagging like a brithish indeed

[hollow spear]

Sounds wrong

[slate marlin]

1bugs

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[fleet wharf]

Hey guys, what do you guys use for nameplates? I'm currently using Jundie's and am reasonably happy with it, but think I might try something different for the new season

[tidal marsh]

...just for the sake of changing?

I use Jundies now, but I used to use Quazii's before that

Can give those a spin I 'spose

[fleet wharf]

I mean if I find something better, that's good, and in the worst case scneario I'll just switch back if new ones I'm trying out are no good

[void ocean]

What r those

Plater setups?

[fleet wharf]

yup

[lilac stag]

usually test both and see which has less of an impact on performance. They do the same basic things really well

It’s all personal preference anyways

[crystal bone]

i started with quazii's then tailored to my liking

[void ocean]

I got the most popular one (forgot the name) but it feels like too much info

[steel zinc]

his is goated imo he even has a ptr build that he nearly updates daily

[void ocean]

Like took me a while just to figure colours

[lilac stag]

Holy big bars

[crystal bone]

im old

can't see

[lilac stag]

Try puttin on your reading glasses grandpa

[crystal bone]

turning off floating combat text was also nice for me

but no more dopamine for big crits

[fleet wharf]

this is my issue too. I moved away from MSBT but still holding on to floating combat text

but honestly, I feel I dont even look at the numbers while I'm in combat except when I glance at details

[lilac stag]

Just make a WA to combine Sectech hits and have that pop up

[crystal bone]

yeah on prog it was just a distraction

[lilac stag]

everything else is whatever

[swift tinsel]

I think Xeph has one that does that too

[fleet wharf]

The only summary I like/use is LE's combat summary thing that tells you how much damage you did in the flag+blade window

[swift tinsel]

and you can specify which spells in consolidates

[lilac stag]

also useless imo but if you enjoy it that cool

[lilac stag]

Which one?

[fleet wharf]

Wait why is it useless? isn't it a decent gauge of how well you did on the cd window?

[lilac stag]

it’s just using resources which you want to look at the log anyways to make sure you’re not wasting resources. It’s just a number on screen, not that you actually did anything correctly

[shell willow]

lol im 40

[lilac stag]

it’s not going to tell you that a gcd was missed in dance

or you wasted 7 cps

[fleet wharf]

I mean in 2025, is there such a need to try to maximize performance? I think even with all the shit I have loaded I am getting good framerates

[lilac stag]

there 100% is

Blizzards code is shit

[chrome palm]

Wym my weak aura that updates on every frame is totally fine

[fleet wharf]

can I do this with details or do i need log review for that?

[lilac stag]

You look at your logs.

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[fleet wharf]

yea, that's what I thought.

Also, do you guys use anything special to track whether you're in melee range or not? I'm using a pretty old WA that I'm pretty sure does that updates every frame and maybe I should move away from that lol

[lilac stag]

I stopped using it. Most the the WA’s you toggle to not available which is part of the range check

Hell I think blizzard bars do this by default

but I’ve got them turned off so not 100% sure

[slate lantern]

Damn imgur on mobile went to complete shit huh

[brittle plinth]

Did we evade the last round of buffs?

We getting good at this

[swift tinsel]

heck yeah we did, you'd think we're outlaw with the evasion uptime

[lilac stag]

No other class in the game is as good as rogue at evading blizzard when help is needed.

Oddly enough as soon as rogue is good our evade button is broken.

[ripe flame]

We tunnel when we are good and forget to press defensives

Unlucky

[lilac stag]

Dev & MM showing rogue how to use defensives

[swift tinsel]

MM cloaking actual nerfs for weeks

literal plot armor atm

[hazy breach]

Well frost dk too

[lilac stag]

It’s a fascinating (and frustrating) exercise trying to figure out how their balancing works

[hazy breach]

Ive been told the most recent frost dk changes ended up slightly positive because they fixed some bugs

[lilac stag]

must be nice.

I genuinely don’t care about RWF comps or even the first 3 weeks of try harding. I just don’t want the spec to fall off for the average mythic enjoyers.

[swift tinsel]

ME fix was pretty solid iirc, and howling blades goes from fatal intent damage to actually noticable lol

fdk got all the rework power and stole some from uhdk to push even further beyond

[lilac stag]

if nothing else changes for sub I’m curious where the fall will be this tier (amps/adds/whatever no longer matter)

[swift tinsel]

I'm expecting even less attention being paid to balance as the tier goes on bc its the last one and this ptr cycle basically felt abandoned early as well

[lilac stag]

I would agree

Or if its there, random ass aura buffs

[alpine wraith]

they likely have a big krangled ass expansion in their hand

i would not say no to a lil 5% buffo

[swift tinsel]

yeah like basically darts with percentages on them and throwing them randomly at specs on the board

[alpine wraith]

just pls dont duplicate or triplicate DS talents again

i beg you

[hollow spear]

They could probably do that and it would still not be up to par ig

[astral axle]

stupid question what is "krangled" is that like skibidi or some other zoomer thing

[swift tinsel]

was a PoE thing I thought

[ripe flame]

a poe thing for corruptions

can mean basically fucked

bugged

etc

[astral axle]

thank you

[chrome palm]

am i coping or is tea build really good

[swift tinsel]

sounds like people have been enjoying it

maybe because its shiny and "new", haven't played it yet

[steel zinc]

share pls or is it the no shadowcraft build?

[chrome palm]

just no sc

burst seems really good

[steel zinc]

also more sustained imo

or you feel different?

[chrome palm]

yeah it does feel like you lose anything

st i guess

[steel zinc]

yeah st your not that op anymore

[chrome palm]

idk whats good on ptr but

first boss eco

doesnt seem to be bad st at least